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big teej
2010-10-04, 07:56 AM
greetings members of the playground.

I have a bit of a problem.


one of my new players has decided to become a power gamer. and/or attempt to create pun-pun

so, I come to you all with 2 questions. (which may require to seperate threads)

1. I need to know every possible way to become pun-pun (so I know when to smite the player with the DMG)

2. ways to counteract/discourage powergaming.


I made it clear to the group in advance that I greatly discourage powergaming, and reserved the right to smite anyone, and anything, at anytime, at my own discretion.



thanks in advance.

(if this is poorly worded, my apologies, class is about to start. if any more information is required just let me know)

Myth
2010-10-04, 08:10 AM
Pun-Pun is not powergaming. It's infantile retardation when used in a game. If your player is a 10 year old just send him off to play Need for Speed on his mom's Macintosh.

Best way is to tell him OOC to just stop doing this. It defeats the purpose of a campaign, it removes the challange out of anything so on and so forth. If he is some genious who just discovered the Pun-Pun build and wants to try it out, he is being a brat, make sure he understands that.

You can always:

Use DM fiat.
Use an Overdeity.
Say "this does not work" to any one of the loopholes. You can also disallow Sarrukhs and/or Serpent kingdoms.

If all else fails, smite the PLAYER with the DMG.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-04, 08:11 AM
Deny. If he says that "by raw it can be done", remind him that "by raw players do not exist" and therefore he couldn't possibly be there. Hopefully he'll disappear in a puff of logic.
Otherwise, set his hair on fire.

blackjack217
2010-10-04, 08:16 AM
The pun pun build also requires a cooperating demon lord who takes a really bad deal

Telonius
2010-10-04, 08:19 AM
I solve this in my campaigns by saying that Pun-Pun has already ascended. Given an arbitrary amount of Wisdom, he has become self-aware and realizes that he's only a fictional character inside a gaming world. He's decided to run with that and become the avatar of the DM within the world. He has taken steps to rearrange the in-game universe to prevent another Pun-Pun from ever ascending. (For example, anyone attempting to contact Pazuzu receives a "Your call may be monitored for quality assurance purposes" message before proceeding, and Pun-Pun cuts in if it goes someplace he doesn't like). His portfolio includes Cheese, Metagaming, and Infinite Power Loops, so any actions the players take in those areas are subject to direct intervention by him.

Morph Bark
2010-10-04, 08:20 AM
The pun pun build also requires a cooperating demon lord who takes a really bad deal

One Pun-Pun build does. There are several, one other is also accessible at level 1, one at level 5 and one at level 12 or 14. And those are just the ones I know of, which isn't everything yet.

Douglas
2010-10-04, 08:27 AM
If you're really seriously worried about a player trying to become Pun-pun, all you need to do to shut it down completely is declare that Sarruhks don't exist in your game. The Sarruhk and its Manipulate Form ability is the linchpin of the whole thing, and every new variation on ways to become Pun-pun just features a different way of acquiring that ability. Remove that ability from the game, and which particular means he chooses to try to get it becomes irrelevant.

Of course, that doesn't do anything to prevent other ultra-cheese tactics like infinite Wish loops. For those, I suggest my preferred treatment of Pun-pun: Pun-pun's build is legal and works. Pun-pun ascended long ago in the ancient past. With his nigh-infinite intelligence and wisdom, he realized the nature of the world he was in and decided to use his overdeity powers to guard game balance, prevent excessive cheese, and ensure the game remains within the bounds of fun. Thus, any attempt to repeat his ascension merely results in him showing up to prevent it and scold the offending munchkin. Similarly with Candle of Invocation infinite Wish loops, Pun-pun steps through the Gate instead of the desired Efreet, tells the offending character something to the effect of "nice try, but no", and (depending on how generous you're feeling) either takes the Candle with him or restores it to an unused state and then leaves.

Aharon
2010-10-04, 08:39 AM
You could encourage him to take a build that results in Pun-Pun at level 20 (or whatever end-point the campaign has). He gets his infinite power as a cool reward of the game, decent power during gameplay. I think the original Pun-Pun was a Kobold Egoist 12. Just take one power of the loop and make it accessible at level 20 only, and forbid all the builds that reach Pun-Punnity at an earlier level.

Killer Angel
2010-10-04, 08:54 AM
Pun-Pun is not powergaming. It's infantile retardation when used in a game.

Only if done with real intention, of course.
My cousin used pun-pun in a campaign run by one of his friends, used to allow all material because he's "more skilled that all the other players". He allowed the potential pun-pun, not realizing what it was.
They have fun watching DM's face after the discover of what is pun-pun.

Then my cousin took out the sheet of his real PC (a thiefling rogue).

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-04, 09:01 AM
Discouraging power gaming in general can be difficult. Making challenges easier doesn't always help, but neither does running a deadly game. Talking to your players out of character about power gaming can help, and (sometimes) so can out-munchkining your player with a Batman monster or the Doomsday Sanction. If he's ruining the fun of your game and WON'T STOP, kick him out. Yes, even if he's related to you. Get him outta your game and go back to your fun.

big teej
2010-10-04, 10:07 AM
my apologies for any redundancy in the following post. .... and the inevitable verbose rambling



Pun-Pun is not powergaming. It's infantile retardation when used in a game. If your player is a 10 year old just send him off to play Need for Speed on his mom's Macintosh.

Best way is to tell him OOC to just stop doing this. It defeats the purpose of a campaign, it removes the challange out of anything so on and so forth. If he is some genious who just discovered the Pun-Pun build and wants to try it out, he is being a brat, make sure he understands that.

You can always:

Use DM fiat.
Use an Overdeity.
Say "this does not work" to any one of the loopholes. You can also disallow Sarrukhs and/or Serpent kingdoms.

If all else fails, smite the PLAYER with the DMG.

to be fair, he maaaaaaaaaaay have been joking about pun-pun, but he has made it clear that his viewpoint is "powergaming=fun" and I've made it clear that "powergaming=smite"

that said (and forgive my ignorance) I was unaware that things such as the serpent kingdomgs were required to become pun-pun

given my standing ban on any material I don't have access to. this shouldn't be a problem. (I only have access to the SRD, the DMG, and the Arms and Equipment guide, with the Book of Exalted Deeds and the book of Vile Darkness coming in soon)

so thats comforting.


Deny. If he says that "by raw it can be done", remind him that "by raw players do not exist" and therefore he couldn't possibly be there. Hopefully he'll disappear in a puff of logic.
Otherwise, set his hair on fire.

I like this....
I shall use it as soon as possible ^_^

(the logic, not the fire.... at least not yet)


The pun pun build also requires a cooperating demon lord who takes a really bad deal

1) huzzah, my fiends are intelligent (for the most part)
2) what is said deal?

while familiar with the premise of pun-pun (power 2nd onlly to the DM) I have very little (if any) idea as to how to get there and how it works.


I solve this in my campaigns by saying that Pun-Pun has already ascended. Given an arbitrary amount of Wisdom, he has become self-aware and realizes that he's only a fictional character inside a gaming world. He's decided to run with that and become the avatar of the DM within the world. He has taken steps to rearrange the in-game universe to prevent another Pun-Pun from ever ascending. (For example, anyone attempting to contact Pazuzu receives a "Your call may be monitored for quality assurance purposes" message before proceeding, and Pun-Pun cuts in if it goes someplace he doesn't like). His portfolio includes Cheese, Metagaming, and Infinite Power Loops, so any actions the players take in those areas are subject to direct intervention by him.

I actually already have an avatar of me in the world :smalltongue:

but I still like this idea... and may use it as well.


Discouraging power gaming in general can be difficult. Making challenges easier doesn't always help, but neither does running a deadly game. Talking to your players out of character about power gaming can help, and (sometimes) so can out-munchkining your player with a Batman monster or the Doomsday Sanction. If he's ruining the fun of your game and WON'T STOP, kick him out. Yes, even if he's related to you. Get him outta your game and go back to your fun.

and here we come to the bigger issue I"m afraid....

I've made it clear to the player out of game that I don't like powergaming, and I greatly discourage it in game... and I'd rather not out-munchkin him, because that could end up with the rest of the party being killed.

so far he's not ruining anyones fun, its just something I'm keeping an eye on.

also....

whats a doomsday sanction? :smallredface:

that aside, given my disposition in regards to munchkinism, I'll have to come to the playground to create a batman monster. as I have 0 experience with optimizing, and I'm not really interested in learning......

blasphemy I know...

anyways, sorry for the long post, I have a tendency to quote an entire statement so I don't actually take something out of context.

thankyou all for your continued help and advice.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-04, 10:13 AM
The Doomsday Sanction - the favored tactic of DMs who are jerks or just Tired of Your Crap, the Doomsday Sanction has its roots in a passage in the DMG which says that there should be the occasional encounter that is WAAAAAY too hard for the PCs which they must then proceed to run away from or talk their way out of.

Except you don't let them. Back them against a wall. Make 'em defend the innocent. Slap 'em into a gladiator pit. However it happens, force them to fight a monster that's WAY too tough, but switch the stats up so that it has less offense and more hit points/AC to give the poor suckers a chance. If they win, you can congratulate them on their victory and then have a frank discussion about how if things don't shape up, the next one will be harder. If they lose, you can explain who peed in their Kool-Aid.

Greenish
2010-10-04, 10:15 AM
so far he's not ruining anyones fun, its just something I'm keeping an eye on.So, what's the problem?

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-04, 10:16 AM
So, what's the problem?

That wonderful phrase SO FAR in the sentence.

Greenish
2010-10-04, 10:19 AM
That wonderful phrase SO FAR in the sentence.Players should be assumed innocent until proven otherwise.

Leaning on someone because of their (non-disruptive) approach to the game is prone the create problems where none exist.

Myth
2010-10-04, 11:00 AM
I got a recent addition to two of my games, the same player rolling an incantatrix in both (the Epic game he is going for incatatrix/dweomerkeepr, by my advice actually). I've given him ample warning that he should not break my game and hold his power back, least he forces my hand. He knows i can take him out if i really want to. Talking OOC seems to solve most issues IMO.

I will give him encounters where he can shine and save the party, but some encounters will take to the other member's strengths, so that hey don't feel they are too much behind.

Gerrtt
2010-10-04, 11:09 AM
Meh, just remind the player that anything they use against you is likely going to be used back against them. They want arbitrarily high stats then they can have them, but you get them too and they don't get to see the result of your dice rolls.

You're the DM, what you say goes at your table whether you're deciding whether or not goblins are evil or whether or not PCs can have unlimited power.

Furthermore, if the player is joking about pun-pun and merely thinks powergaming is fun then powergame back. Again, you're the DM and they don't get to see your dice rolls. Just don't be a jerk about it and everything will probably work out in the end.

Radar
2010-10-04, 11:13 AM
Players should be assumed innocent until proven otherwise.

Leaning on someone because of their (non-disruptive) approach to the game is prone the create problems where none exist.
"Expect the best, prepare for the worst."

The_JJ
2010-10-04, 11:18 AM
Players should be assumed innocent until proven otherwise.

Leaning on someone because of their (non-disruptive) approach to the game is prone the create problems where none exist.

Ounce of prevention ~ pound of cure. And a lot less hassle.

Ruinix
2010-10-04, 11:33 AM
"Prepare for the worst, expect the best."

fixed and preatty much the premise for the cold war XDDD

Soranar
2010-10-04, 12:53 PM
Pun pun cheese mostly revolves about gaining the ability to gain abilities from a weird creature in a splatbook, giving it to your familiar and then starting the loop using said ability (which , through familiar shenanigans, will make you gain infinite stats)

just ban the creature and pun pun cannot work (which is already the case since you don't allow material from splatbooks that contain it anyway)

Mando Knight
2010-10-04, 04:55 PM
"Expect the best, prepare for the worst."

Actually, it's expect the worst (and thus prepare for it), and hope for the best (since that's really out of your hands). If you're only expecting the best, then you can't really prepare for the worst.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-04, 04:59 PM
Inform him that Pun-Pun draws his power from an ancient pact in which for every action he takes the controlling player gets a sucker punch to the face.

Siosilvar
2010-10-04, 05:02 PM
Better option than all of the above:

Don't smite powergamers until you've asked them to restrain themselves a bit.

Mature people can deal with it. The Incantatrix doesn't have to cast a twinned split ray empowered maximized enervation every round when an acid arrow will make more fun. The übercharger doesn't have to charge the BBEG on the first round of combat.

I believe there was a quote from somebody on the boards that went something like this:
"It's easier to play below your ability than it is to play above it."


...


However, if they won't listen to you, smite away. Nicely if possible.

BRC
2010-10-04, 05:05 PM
The solution is easy, if you see him using some version of Pun-Pun (You don't need to know all the versions, just be able to recognize the result). Rule Zero it out of existence.

The only question remaining is the best way to present it. A big stamp that reads "DENIED" and some red ink is good, but takes some investment, same with a paper shredder.

Alternatively, bring some ham and bread to the table, when you recieve the character sheet. Read it over, calmly fold it up and get the bread out. When they ask what you're doing, respond "Making a ham and cheese sandwich".

AslanCross
2010-10-04, 06:53 PM
"Pun-pun does not exist. Try it again and you're never coming back to this game."

It's not powergaming at all. Pun-pun is spoiling everyone's fun.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-04, 07:06 PM
It's time for an OOC sit-down. If you actively discourage powergaming, and he purposely goes against that wish, it will turn into problems most likely.

Hopefully he can understand that that's not the type of game you want to run. Many groups enjoy some level of powergaming (like mine), but many don't and it's his responsibility to go along with that.

Boren
2010-10-04, 07:49 PM
Meh, just remind the player that anything they use against you is likely going to be used back against them. They want arbitrarily high stats then they can have them, but you get them too and they don't get to see the result of your dice rolls.

You're the DM, what you say goes at your table whether you're deciding whether or not goblins are evil or whether or not PCs can have unlimited power.

Furthermore, if the player is joking about pun-pun and merely thinks powergaming is fun then powergame back. Again, you're the DM and they don't get to see your dice rolls. Just don't be a jerk about it and everything will probably work out in the end.

I always feel the need to point something out whenever some one makes the 'I'm/your the DM' argument, that a DM that leans too much on this will end up with no players and a DM with no players is just a person sitting at a table with a pile of books nothing more.
That said a player entering a game with power gaming intentions when he has been told in advance that this is not the style of game you run is possibly:
1) Not truly aware of your definition of 'power gamer' that phase can mean many different things to different people.
2) May believe he is role playing an adventure acutely. Lets face it if any of us were suddenly thrust into a war zone and a passing friendly solder asks 'would you like to get in the tank?' would any of us say 'no the bad guys only have AK-47s I'd rather keep this balanced so its interesting'?
3) May be the kind of player who dose what he wants how he wants and the heck with everyone else until the DM kicks him out.
4) Some lesser combination of the above (Most likely)

tcrudisi
2010-10-04, 08:25 PM
As a player, I sat down at a new table of which none of us had ever played together before. The DM was brand new to 3.5 (coming from 1st) and two of the other players were new to 3.5 as well, coming from 1st and 2nd ed. themselves. In fact, only myself and my fiancée had any experience with 3.5.

And one of the players was building Pun-Pun, the level 12 version. I recognized it after a couple of sessions (I suspected it before then) and then I pointed out that there was a build very similar to his that was called Pun-Pun. His reaction? "Yeah, I know. That's what I'm playing."

Ooohhhh boy. I left that game after that session and never came back.

However, I wasn't DMing. If the DM had more experience, I would have trusted him to handle it.

But that's not what you asked. You asked how to smite Pun-Pun. The easy answer? Don't. Let him ascend. He goes about the process and starts getting all giddy about how he's got a god-character, then simply tell him, "Congratulations. You beat D&D. Your character is now way too powerful for the current story and becomes an NPC."

Pun-Pun really isn't all that powerful until it becomes all-powerful. So unless he's doing it at level 1, it's not really a big deal. If he wants to have his fun creating Pun-Pun, then let him. Just be prepared to take that character away as soon as he turns into Pun-Pun.

/edit - The advantages to this? You don't have to tell him "No, that doesn't work in my world." He gets to have his fun, you get to continue with your story, and the world is a happy place. There's no need to call shenanigans, either, or claim to block loopholes. Just, tell him that when he's become Pun-Pun he's far too powerful to be a PC and his character will live on in this world as an NPC. If he wants to claim that his Pun-Pun's main goal was to destroy the world, he succeeds. Then, I would say, "Okay, you succeeded. The world is destroyed. Now, because this pretty much ends the story, you guys have an option: I can keep going with an alternate world where everything is the same except Pun-Pun never destroyed the world or we can end the game now." Of course they'll pick to keep going (unless they weren't having any fun anyway) and the player gets his small, inconsequential "victory."

aquaticrna
2010-10-04, 09:19 PM
my personal response would be:
"as you are infused with raw power you become overwhelmed by the awesome energy of godhood, your body explodes."

big teej
2010-10-04, 09:37 PM
Better option than all of the above:

Don't smite powergamers until you've asked them to restrain themselves a bit.

Mature people can deal with it.


However, if they won't listen to you, smite away. Nicely if possible.

-quote shortend-

this whole thread spawned from the player telling me, out of game (not even on game day) "I'm gonna be a power gamer"

and I informed him "I strongly discourage that"

he continues to make remarks to that effect, so that said to me it was time to look at preventive and retributive measures...

now for the record
I am NOT going to smite him in any fashion, unless he starts to power game obnoxiously.

he hasn't done so yet, and to be honest, with the current available resources, I'm not sure he can...

but I'm paranoid, and I like to be prepared, hence this thread


I always feel the need to point something out whenever some one makes the 'I'm/your the DM' argument, that a DM that leans too much on this will end up with no players and a DM with no players is just a person sitting at a table with a pile of books nothing more.
That said a player entering a game with power gaming intentions when he has been told in advance that this is not the style of game you run is possibly:
1) Not truly aware of your definition of 'power gamer' that phase can mean many different things to different people.
2) May believe he is role playing an adventure acutely. Lets face it if any of us were suddenly thrust into a war zone and a passing friendly solder asks 'would you like to get in the tank?' would any of us say 'no the bad guys only have AK-47s I'd rather keep this balanced so its interesting'?
3) May be the kind of player who dose what he wants how he wants and the heck with everyone else until the DM kicks him out.
4) Some lesser combination of the above (Most likely)

the player told me out of game "I'm going to powergame" and I responded, out of game "don't" (though it was worded differently)

and I'm not sure if his comments about powergaming are just jokes or if he actually intends to try and cheese the game to pieces or not.... hence the thread

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-04, 09:41 PM
It kinda sounds to me like he's just pushing your buttons, then.

The-Mage-King
2010-10-04, 09:42 PM
the player told me out of game "I'm going to powergame" and I responded, out of game "don't" (though it was worded differently)

and I'm not sure if his comments about powergaming are just jokes or if he actually intends to try and cheese the game to pieces or not.... hence the thread

Powegaming is not automatically trying to "cheese the game to pieces". It's simply trying to get the most BANG for your buck in character design.

Greenish
2010-10-05, 09:36 AM
he hasn't done so yet, and to be honest, with the current available resources, I'm not sure he can...As long as a system has rules, it can be powergamed. :smallamused:

but I'm paranoid, and I like to be prepared, hence this threadNow, it might be he's joking, it might be he's already doing it but you haven't noticed because he's not trying to disrupt the game, or he might still be planning.

Your first sign that he has turned to the dark side will be when he rolls a human druid. :smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2010-10-05, 12:25 PM
Powergaming has a lot of definitions depending on the person. You guys might have entirely different definitions of the word. If he does want to power game, ask him to do it with a weaker character or a weaker build such as sword and shield.

If he actually tries bringing pun-pun to the table though, feel free to smite him.

BRC
2010-10-05, 01:35 PM
Powegaming is not automatically trying to "cheese the game to pieces". It's simply trying to get the most BANG for your buck in character design.
There's alot of different definitions.

Generally (at least, the way I've seen it.) It goes like this.
Optimization is starting with a character concept and trying to make it as effective as possible. The difference between an Optimizer and a Powergamer is that an Optimizer starts with a character concept, then tries to make it effective.
Powergaming is trying to make the most powerful character (Either in general, or with a specific tactic) within the generally accepted RAI ( no Pun-Pun, no infinite damage cheese). A Powergamer min-maxes, but isn't trying to break the game, merely beat it. Unlike an Optimizer, a Powergamer chooses their character concept because of the power it can lead to. They may stretch the interpretations of some rules, but they don't actively seek out exploits.
Munkinery/Cheese is about actively exploiting flaws and loopholes in the rules. Clear violations of RAI (like Pun-Pun, the Jumplomancer, ect). Most of this is meant to be thought experiments, not intended for actual gameplay. What sets a Munchkin apart from a Powergamer is that the Munchkin actively seeks rules exploits, it is there intention to break the game.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 02:08 PM
greetings members of the playground.

I have a bit of a problem.


one of my new players has decided to become a power gamer. and/or attempt to create pun-pun

so, I come to you all with 2 questions. (which may require to seperate threads)

1. I need to know every possible way to become pun-pun (so I know when to smite the player with the DMG)

All of them require the existance of the Sarrukk in your game world. It's a faerun specific monster. This is an easy fix. ESPECIALLY if you're not in faerun.

For added fun, if he uses the Pazuzu method, roll with it. Just read Pazuzu's rules carefully. They are not a guarantee, and anyhow, it's always funny to see them have a glimmer of hope before you crush their dreams.

Also, as a side note, it utilizes infinite combos. Banning these is generally a good idea.


2. ways to counteract/discourage powergaming.

Pun-pun isn't powergaming. He's not even gaming. He's a way to say "haha, I won D&D". After which, you pretty much just say, ok...now what? Start over? Roll a new character? Want to do it again?

It's a pretty pointless exercise. Anyone trying to make pun-pun in game has missed the point of it, which is to actually play.


I made it clear to the group in advance that I greatly discourage powergaming, and reserved the right to smite anyone, and anything, at anytime, at my own discretion.

Don't come across as relying on rule zero so heavily. Especially without defining what exactly power-gaming is. If certain things are obviously inappropriate, stick em in a list of house rules at the beginning of the game. That way, your players know exactly what the bad things are, and can merrily avoid them. It also avoids a lot of arguing over what exactly constitutes power gaming. If someone thinks pun-pun is ok, this might be in the future otherwise.

BRC
2010-10-05, 02:22 PM
Another point concerning discouraging powergaming. First of all, make sure your intervention is necessary. You're player may say "I'm going to Powergame!", and the best he comes up with is an 18 strength Half-orc barbarian with power attack. I don't know how experienced this player is, but it may not be all that bad (He could just be somebody who heard about pun-pun on the internet).
if he does know what he's doing, it's usually best to actually run a few adventures before you intervene. The other players might not mind the power imbalance. Sure he's single handedly taking care of one enemy while the rest of the party is handling another, but if everybody is still feeling useful and having fun, then you don't really have a problem. You'll want to avoid single-enemy fights where he can bring the power of his character to win the encounter before anybody else gets a shot in.
Of course, sometimes you don't even need to see the game begin to see that a character is going to cause problems.

If it IS a problem, the best option is to talk with him. Explain that the game as a whole is suffering because of his character, and offer him a chance to rebuild something more appropriate to the power level of the party. Give his character a big in-game sendoff, dieing holding the line against a demon horde or being called back to serve as head of his barbarian tribe or whatever. The thrill with powergaming tends to die off after you smash your way through a few encounters.

If discussion dosn't work, then you can bring down the hammer. Most powergaming relies on stacking bonus on top of bonus (Power attack plus shock trooper plus leap attack for example), by removing one of those bonuses you can usually make his character do the same stuff he did before, just not as well.

Togo
2010-10-05, 02:41 PM
Ask him to make a character that's roughly as optimised as everyone else's character. Point out that if he creates a character that's more powerful, the other players will have less fun. People who annonce they are powergamers are often just looking for recognitiion, and if that is granted, the problem may go away.

The challenge of powergaming is making the most of what you have. If he's that good at powergaming, he should try and powergame something that would otherwise be very weak. To kick my optimisation habit I played a 3.0 druid, a high charisma bard, a fighter with max charisma, and a wizard specialising in familiar buffs and effects. A friend of mine tried a cleric who had vowed never to hurt anyone - in practice he refused to do any real (i.e. not subdual) damage to any person. The awesome fury that got unleashed when he fought constructs, undead, and summoned extraplanar creatures, was all the more terrifying because of the restrictions he typically played under.

I've never seen a Pun-Pun build that didn't rely on a fairly liberal interpretation of the rules, or more specifically, one that I wouldn't feel comfortable ruling is illegal under RAW. Divine ranks don't stack, taking over a portfolio triggers portfolio sense, spellcasting isn't an (ex) racial ability, ice assasin can't duplicate Gods - only their avatars, and most forms of shapeshifting rule out turning into anything you're unfamiliar with, which means if you never meet Sakkura you can't turn into one, and in most settings they're all dead, and have been for centuries.

Greenish
2010-10-05, 03:14 PM
To kick my optimisation habit I played a 3.0 druid, a high charisma bard, a fighter with max charisma, and a wizard specialising in familiar buffs and effects.Well, I'm not familiar with 3.0 druid, but

high charisma bard is a given (diplomancy, DFI, later Sublime Chord casting)…
fighter with high charisma, zhentarim sub levels and a few Intimidate feats, maybe even cross class UMD, or better yet, the Apprentice feat…
wizardy variant of the "big guy is with me", yeah, slap enough Personal spells on it, starting with the polymorph ones…


Yeah. I might be incurable. :smallfrown:

Ruinix
2010-10-05, 03:31 PM
i have a friend who powergame even a meal, yes as you read, we (my group of friends) talk about a meal and he comes with some various recipes and the cost of all that wich is always low XD and the wine or what ever he is always looking the best and most power way to do anything; then in game he premade the all the progresion of his PCs level by level even skill poin by skill point, at the end, he is the most power gamer person i ever meet, but he use his knowlege so well and in a way that never ruin others fun.

stay close of that player of yours that trying to powergame, don't restrain unless he can't restrain him self for ruin others fun, and in the end maybe you can learn something from him, even though the loopholes and the cheesy

Togo
2010-10-05, 04:08 PM
Well, I'm not familiar with 3.0 druid, but

high charisma bard is a given (diplomancy, DFI, later Sublime Chord casting)…

No sublime Chord, and we use reasonable rules for diplomacy.


fighter with high charisma, zhentarim sub levels and a few Intimidate feats, maybe even cross class UMD, or better yet, the Apprentice feat…

No zhentarim, no sublevels. The fighter also had to go bare-chested at all times, to show off his muscles, so no armour.


wizardy variant of the "big guy is with me", yeah, slap enough Personal spells on it, starting with the polymorph ones…


Polymorph was banned. But yeah, I did end up with a familiar with an AC of over 40 though.

The idea was for a challenge. And more importantly to not dominate the fight scenes in the game.

big teej
2010-10-05, 08:32 PM
There's alot of different definitions.
/snip


congratulations sir, (with your permission) I'm going to print this out and stick it to my DM screen, and use it as a reference for........................... a long time.

also
3 cookies
and 4 internets


All of them require the existance of the Sarrukk in your game world. It's a faerun specific monster. This is an easy fix. ESPECIALLY if you're not in faerun.

well... that is easy... we're not in faerun, we're in my homebrew setting.

the rest of your post also contained good points, but I felt that this one was the most applicable (though the pazuzu bit can be implemented as soon as I get my hands on whatever book he is in.)


Another point concerning discouraging powergaming. First of all, make sure your intervention is necessary. You're player may say "I'm going to Powergame!", and the best he comes up with is an 18 strength Half-orc barbarian with power attack. I don't know how experienced this player is, but it may not be all that bad (He could just be somebody who heard about pun-pun on the internet).

this is another excellent point (that I feel very silly for not thinking of) given his experience, and the resources at hand(the SRD, the DMG and the Arms and Equipment Guide) that actually may be true.... (and I'm under the strong impression he heard about pun-pun on the net)



if he does know what he's doing, it's usually best to actually run a few adventures before you intervene. The other players might not mind the power imbalance. Sure he's single handedly taking care of one enemy while the rest of the party is handling another, but if everybody is still feeling useful and having fun, then you don't really have a problem. You'll want to avoid single-enemy fights where he can bring the power of his character to win the encounter before anybody else gets a shot in.
Of course, sometimes you don't even need to see the game begin to see that a character is going to cause problems.


I don't plan to intervene unless he begins to break the party or ruin people's fun, as a DM I try very hard to maintain my stance of "do whatever you want, your only limitations are don't break the game, and don't break the party"
I like to think I do a good job of that....



Yeah. I might be incurable. :smallfrown:

play a straight monk





Don't come across as relying on rule zero so heavily. Especially without defining what exactly power-gaming is. If certain things are obviously inappropriate, stick em in a list of house rules at the beginning of the game. That way, your players know exactly what the bad things are, and can merrily avoid them. It also avoids a lot of arguing over what exactly constitutes power gaming. If someone thinks pun-pun is ok, this might be in the future otherwise.

in response to your response to the 'smiting at my discretion' quote
in my defense (and this is my fault for forgetting to mention it) I immedietly followed that statement with "that said, the game is about yall, and I'm here to do my best to make sure you have fun"

but the sentiment is greatly appreciated.


on a quasi related note:
I am very pleased with the feedback I've gotten, you've all been very helpful and insightful.

carry on :smallsmile:

BRC
2010-10-05, 08:36 PM
Go right ahead!
*Surfs on the Cookies*
*Puts internets in a jar for later*

Yeah, if he just looked up Pun-Pun on the internet, and all you have is the SRD and arms and equipment, you probably don't have to worry too much. There is a big difference between somebody who just looks up broken builds on the internet, and somebody who can actually create them.

Thurbane
2010-10-05, 08:48 PM
Pun-Pun is not powergaming. It's infantile retardation when used in a game.
It's a matter of degrees - one person's rampant munchkinism is anothers optimization.

Unfortunately, there is no clear cut line-in-the-sand, either real or figurative, that divides "legitimate optimization" and "infantile retardation" (aka Theoretical Optimization), other than the common sense of the DM and others in the group...

Crow
2010-10-05, 08:49 PM
The most powerful gods can sense events related to their portfolios quite a bit in advance.

Some god out there squashes Pun Pun before he even gets the chance at the trick.

tcrudisi
2010-10-05, 09:34 PM
(though the pazuzu bit can be implemented as soon as I get my hands on whatever book he is in.)

this is another excellent point (that I feel very silly for not thinking of) given his experience, and the resources at hand(the SRD, the DMG and the Arms and Equipment Guide) that actually may be true.... (and I'm under the strong impression he heard about pun-pun on the net)

I don't plan to intervene unless he begins to break the party or ruin people's fun, as a DM I try very hard to maintain my stance of "do whatever you want, your only limitations are don't break the game, and don't break the party"
I like to think I do a good job of that....

This pretty sums up why I said what I did - I would be inclined to let him do the Pun-Pun trick. Why? It stops him from ever doing it again.

He summons Pazuzu, becomes a Sarukh, and then becomes Pun-Pun. Then his character is immediately retired. He absolutely does not get to break the game because his character is immediately retired as a new god. And it stops him from ever using any of those tricks again, as you can honestly say, "Sorry, it's already happening and the new god isn't letting it happen again." And what will he say to that? He's being foiled by his own character ... and he never got a chance to break the game. Plus, he got to do what he wanted, so he is happy about that as well. Everybody is happy.

It sort of boggles my mind how many people are saying they would stop him from doing this. Why? There's no need. All you do is cause strife between yourself and a player when you tell him mid-ascension that it's not going to work. Then he feels like he's stuck with a character he doesn't want to play and nobody is really happy.

Now, assuming he is talking about a different form of munchkinry, then you'll obviously have to take a different action. Stepping in and saying no might be your only recourse, but with Pun-Pun specifically, he's weak and then a god. There's no in-between, really, and thus no playing as anything broken. He goes from weak to god, so it's easy to say, "Okay, you won D&D. You are now a god. What character are you going to play now?" With other builds... not so much. Saying no just might be the only way to stop it, and then having a serious talk with the player.

Veros
2010-10-05, 11:59 PM
This pretty sums up why I said what I did - I would be inclined to let him do the Pun-Pun trick. Why? It stops him from ever doing it again.

He summons Pazuzu, becomes a Sarukh, and then becomes Pun-Pun. Then his character is immediately retired. He absolutely does not get to break the game because his character is immediately retired as a new god. And it stops him from ever using any of those tricks again, as you can honestly say, "Sorry, it's already happening and the new god isn't letting it happen again." And what will he say to that? He's being foiled by his own character ... and he never got a chance to break the game. Plus, he got to do what he wanted, so he is happy about that as well. Everybody is happy.

It sort of boggles my mind how many people are saying they would stop him from doing this. Why? There's no need. All you do is cause strife between yourself and a player when you tell him mid-ascension that it's not going to work. Then he feels like he's stuck with a character he doesn't want to play and nobody is really happy.

Now, assuming he is talking about a different form of munchkinry, then you'll obviously have to take a different action. Stepping in and saying no might be your only recourse, but with Pun-Pun specifically, he's weak and then a god. There's no in-between, really, and thus no playing as anything broken. He goes from weak to god, so it's easy to say, "Okay, you won D&D. You are now a god. What character are you going to play now?" With other builds... not so much. Saying no just might be the only way to stop it, and then having a serious talk with the player.

Actually, that's not quite true. If you totally ignore Spell-like abilities vastly beyond your level (Simulacrum I'm looking at you.) and don't stack many applications of size increase + stat sets it's possible to -under- play and be strong but not GOD. (Though you have the potential.)

Aka... I've played a campaign where I managed to sneak it through... I stopped myself at the point where -omg- kobold with a +10 strength modifier (and Enlarge Person and Cure Light Wounds at will) [I didn't bother with attack spells and such to not out shine the other party members other than giving the Clerics less of a stress on healing since we didn't have any wands and their was 12 of us.]

It's all a matter of self-control. Yes Pun-Pun can explode. But the play controls how much and if at all as well. If you keep it simple and grounded at about the level everyone else in your party, it's alright. But the DM should watch the player carefully. (We worked together and decided that to learn and use a spell as a spell-like ability, you have to have someone else in the party able to use it in their maximum slot -2... Just to not have the at will make too big of a mess at lower levels.) Also that if the character ever out shined and replaced the party members... Time for the nerf bat or smite bat.