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hamishspence
2010-10-04, 01:54 PM
I've been told that (according to DMG errata) if you create a more powerful version of an existing item (much higher CL)- you pay exactly the same cost.

Specifically- here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9479912&postcount=22

Does this make sense- or does it seem like rules abuse?

The idea that you can buy a CL20 Hat of Anonymity for the same price as a standard CL7 one (or create your own without spending any more XP or gold) seems to me a bit cheesy- considering that the item is basically a Nondetection item with a little bonus extra- and Nondetection is much more powerful if your CR is higher.

Duke of URL
2010-10-04, 02:17 PM
No, that's incorrect. The DMG price guidelines always assume the minimum caster levels. If an item is created at a higher caster level, it generally costs more. The creator determines the caster level of the item, which must be between the minimum caster level and his/her own caster level, and pays the gp/xp costs accordingly.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 02:19 PM
According to the other theory- it doesn't matter what the caster level of the item is- the price is fixed and you can have whatever caster level you want right up to your own maximum caster level without affecting the price.

This seems like a rather overgenerous reading of the DMG errata to me though.

Duke of URL
2010-10-04, 02:24 PM
I would go beyond "overgenerous" and call it "intentionally misreading". All items that have effects based on caster level, where multiple strengths of the item are shown, have costs scaled by said caster level.

Keld Denar
2010-10-04, 02:24 PM
Most things follow a pretty explicit formula. That is generally spell level * caster level * base factor.

A CL2 wand explicitly costs twice as much as a CL1 wand. I don't see anything in the wonderous item description that counters this.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 02:33 PM
It's not in the book- but in the errata:


For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.


Supposedly "the caster level is determined by the creator" means that when you create an item with a given price to create and a given CL, you can use your caster level instead of the normal one for all it's effects when you create it, without affecting the price.

Seems to me like a massive stretch though. If I was DMing and someone wanted to create a CL20 version of a normally CL 7 item (and CL made a huge difference to effectiveness) I'd expect them to pay extra for the extra effectiveness.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-04, 02:36 PM
I see that the erratta says you may create whichever caster level you prefer.

I just don't see where it says it's free to do so.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 02:38 PM
It's an assumption based on the price of the item being provided- but the caster level not being fixed.

The line of reasoning seems to be "If item price is fixed- but caster level is dependant on caster- then you can have a higher CL item at the same price".

Seems like an overassumption though. If you're not using the listed CL, why expect that it will be the listed price?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-04, 02:41 PM
Im on the same track with you. If you're not creating the item as listed, the costs may differ. There are a number of ways to modify items, and in *every* case where caster level is variable, adding more costs money.

It strikes me as requiring fairly selective to arrive at some interpolation based on "it doesnt SAY I can't do x", while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

Keld Denar
2010-10-04, 02:41 PM
Yea, it sounds like a bit of a streched assumption to think you can get an item of any CL with no change in price. Otherwise you'd have items out there forged by Red Wizard circles with a CL of 500 or something that would be the same price as one made by Joe Wizard in the tower down the street.

I mean, everything else already explicitly scales with CL...and again, there is nothing in the text you cited to disprove that.

Reluctance
2010-10-04, 02:42 PM
The impression I got was that for items that made no mention of anything caster level related, you could make them more dispel-proof without changing the cost. if you wanted to make a +1 sword at CL 20, knock yourself out.

If you want to raise an item's CL for dispel resistance only - all other level-based variables staying the same as whatever's mentioned in the item description - knock yourself out. changing the effects changes the item, at which point you're making a custom item and should be using adjustments as per the guidelines.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 02:43 PM
First of all, this has nothing to do with charged items like wands, which specifically say their price is based on caster level. Wondrous items have a listed price in their description, often with no allowance for variation. The item creation rules specifically spell out that when creating a magic item, the caster level of that item is based on the creator's caster level.

For example, the Speed weapon property normally has a CL 7. A Wizard 5 could meet the prerequisites and add that property to an existing +1 weapon, in which case that item's CL is 5th. Despite the variation in caster level, that item's price is unchanged. You don't get to pay less for having a lower caster level on an item, and you don't have to pay more for a higher caster level. A Wizard 10 could put the Speed property on a weapon and it would be at CL 10, and it would still cost the same.

Just the same, a Hat of Anonymity requires Craft Wondrous Item and Nondetection, so a Wizard 3 could meet those requirements and create one at CL 3. The item would not cost any less than the CL 7 version, because the price is already set. Just the same, a 20th level character could create that item at CL 20, and it would be the same price as what's listed.

The Spell Level x Caster Level x GP amount formula is not applicable for existing wondrous items, they already have a price assigned. The post-errata item creation rules specifically say that when creating a magical item, the item's caster level is based on the creator's caster level. The original DMG printing caused the printed caster levels of items to be an extra, unintentional prerequisite for creating those items, and it was errated to allow variation in the caster level without affecting the cost of the items. You cannot create an item at a lower caster level for a lower price, and creating an existing item with a set price at a higher caster level will not affect its cost.

Duke of URL
2010-10-04, 02:47 PM
The post-errata item creation rules specifically say that when creating a magical item, the item's caster level is based on the creator's caster level.

No, it says that the creator determines the caster level of the item. It does not say that increasing an item's CL is free.

hamishspence
2010-10-04, 02:50 PM
Just the same, a Hat of Anonymity requires Craft Wondrous Item and Nondetection, so a Wizard 3 could meet those requirements and create one at CL 3. The item would not cost any less than the CL 7 version, because the price is already set. Just the same, a 20th level character could create that item at CL 20, and it would be the same price as what's listed.

You could create a homebrew similar item with CL3- but it would not be a hat of Anonymity- because those are- explicitly- CR7.

The prerequisite does have to be met, for lower-level casters, if you want to duplicate the item.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-04, 02:55 PM
Right. Just because a cost is unstated does not mean that the cost is free.

So, you can create a more dispel resistant version of an existing magic item, sure. There is no guarantee that doing so will not affect the cost.

The custom item creation guidelines advise a specific scaling for increasing CL. The DM may opt to overrule that. The rules are permissive, you get to do things only if they say you can. So, yes. You definitely can make a higher CL version. But it isn't free to do so unless the rules say it is.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 02:58 PM
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
Is it......
"For other magic items, the caster level is determined by [whatever] the creator [wants it to be]."
or
"For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator['s caster level]."

Grammatically, the second is correct. The paragraph quoted begins by stating that certain items can have a variable caster level. It goes on to state that for other magic items, the caster level is set according to the creator's caster level. I doubt they intended to allow a relatively low level character to create an item with an infinitely high caster level.

If creating items at a higher caster level makes them cost more, then creating items at a lower caster level would make them cost less. There are no double standards in these rules, and you cannot get items for less than their listed cost. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the typically-looted version of the item, then your creation costs are still going to be based on that item's listed full price. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level happens to be higher than that of the typically-looted version of the item, you're not going to be stuck paying more for creating it at your own caster level.

Keld Denar
2010-10-04, 03:07 PM
You can always opt to cast a spell at a CL less than your maximum CL, to a minimum of whatever the minimum is required to cast a spell of that level. So if you did have a CL of 10, and you wanted to make an item with a CL of 7, you could, simply by casting the spell at CL 7 every day when you cast the spell as part of the item creation process.

Duke of URL
2010-10-04, 03:08 PM
If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the typically-looted version of the item, then your creation costs are still going to be based on that item's listed full price.

No, that's not correct. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the item as listed in the DMG, then you cannot make that item at all, as you do not meet the minimum caster level requirement. You can make a similar item, using the item creation guidelines (which includes caster level as a cost component), subject to DM approval.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-04, 03:09 PM
Grammatically, the second is correct.

Grammatically, both are correct.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-04, 03:50 PM
No, that's not correct. If you want to create a magic item, and your caster level is lower than that of the item as listed in the DMG, then you cannot make that item at all, as you do not meet the minimum caster level requirement. You can make a similar item, using the item creation guidelines (which includes caster level as a cost component), subject to DM approval.

Read the DMG errata. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) An item's caster level is not a prerequisite to create it, hence the semicolon separating it from the prerequisite listing. The caster level given for any item is what it will have when found as loot within the game. If you create a magic item, the creator's caster level sets what the item's caster level is.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-04, 04:04 PM
Read the DMG errata. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) An item's caster level is not a prerequisite to create it, hence the semicolon separating it from the prerequisite listing. The caster level given for any item is what it will have when found as loot within the game. If you create a magic item, the creator's caster level sets what the item's caster level is.

I see nothing in the DMG errata stating that an items caster level is not a prerequisite. To be fair, the FAQ does state that CL is not a prerequisite:


The rules for magic item creation permit a character
creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another
caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item.
The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the
character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to
cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with
the item creation feat being used to create the item (the
“creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example,
can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat
create items containing any spell (assuming access to the
spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells?

Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum
caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default
caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)
A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create
a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to
cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had
access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an
item or another character).

I do, however, see the following in the SRD.


While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.


Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.


Creating Wondrous Items

To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item. Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline. Creating an item costs half the market value listed.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some items may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a wondrous item requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. ...which of course indicates this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues), which uses caster level as a multiplier. Going back to the first quote,
[a] creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal....which implies that you can only increase the caster level with metamagic. As such, you can use, say, Heighten Spell to increase the level, but then your cost goes up because the spell level increases (and with it, the minimum caster level).

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 02:45 AM
Given that the item creation pricing guidelines use caster level as a multiplier for cost- maybe you can work out what the cost of the high CL item is, by dividing cost by old CL and multiplying by new CL?

So- for CL20 version of CL7 item- divide price by 7 then multiply it by 20?

Trouvere
2010-10-05, 04:51 AM
[tl;wr - the listed CLs make no sense. Best just to treat them as an unmodifiable representation of how tightly the magic is bound to an individual item.]

The simple truth of the matter is, those CL entries alongside wondrous items make little sense, and are probably a result of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing when the PHB was first written.

What are the theories? (1) That the CL listed was intended as a prerequisite - quite possibly true at one point in the writing process, but it's clear that it is no longer intended as a requirement, if it ever was one. Also, all those CL 1 and CL 2 items items that need CWI to make? Yeah. (2) That it is just a helpful guide to the average CL of a random item found as loot. Maybe. But why wouldn't it just be the minimum CL required to create the item given the listed prerequisites? Maybe it represents the 'average sort of crafter' who'd make such a thing, given expected WBL?

Let's look at a couple of items:

Bag of Tricks, various. CL 3, 5, 9. They match exactly with the minimum CLs required to cast the prerequisite spells. Lots of wondrous items seem to work this way. It would have been nice if they all did.

Amulet of Mighty Fists. CL 5, whether it's a +1 or a +5 amulet. But the creator's CL must be at least 3 times the granted bonus. Why CL 5, then, when you can make them at CL 3, 6, 9, 12 and 15?

Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location. CL 8, though it only requires a 3rd level spell. Well, I think they picked the CL of this one so as to set a DC of 19 for the Nondetection effect, for their own obscure reasons. There is no way an 8th level NPC caster could afford to make one of these for himself.

Minor Circlet of Blasting. CL 6, a bit higher than the prerequisite CL 5.
Major Circlet of Blasting, though, CL 17. Even though a maximised Searing Light only requires CL 11.

Folding Boat. CL 6. But it requires Fabricate, a 5th level spell. The item CL is lower than the minimum CL needed to cast the spell. That's odd in itself. And there goes, again, the theory that the CL is a further prerequisite.

Goggles of Minute Seeing. CL 3. But they require True Seeing, at least a 5th level spell. Again the item CL is lower than the minimum CL for the prequisite spell. You can't create a CL 4 Wand of Fireball, so how can you create a CL 3 item from a minimum CL 9 spell, if the CL means the same thing in each case? It obviously doesn't.

Well, then, those two items conclusively demonstrate either that their CLs are typos, or that the listed CL has nothing to do with prerequisites or the crafter's own CL. :smallwink:

Eyes of Charming. CL 7. Made using heightened Charm Person. DC 16. Hey, that actually makes sense. At CL 7, heightened to a 4th level spell, requiring minimum Int/Cha 14 (+2) to cast, for a DC of 10+4+2=16. The exception that proves the rule?

Generally, there's just no rhyme or reason to these numbers.

I think we're left with only one possibility - the listed CL of a wondrous item is not 'accessible' to the crafter. It represents an unpredictable fundamental interaction between the specific item and the laws of magic. Some items work well and therefore get a high CL (=high resistance to dispelling), some items struggle to hold their magical properties, and have a low intrinsic CL... regardless of which spells went into them. It's a bit like the way that items in the wrong body slot cost more, but not much.

A box that turns into two different boats? That's ridiculous. The laws of magic do not approve. CL 6, even though the crafter was at least CL 9. Pearl of Power I, made by a lowly 1st level wizard? The laws of magic approve of this sort of thing. CL 17. Made by a 20th level wizard? Well, they don't approve that much. Still CL 17.

In other words, the game designers sometimes went with the easy answer of matching item CL to spell prerequisites, sometimes picked a number deliberately to control duration or DC of an item's effect, but quite often they just picked a number at random.

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 06:10 AM
I think we're left with only one possibility - the listed CL of a wondrous item is not 'accessible' to the crafter. It represents an unpredictable fundamental interaction between the specific item and the laws of magic. Some items work well and therefore get a high CL (=high resistance to dispelling), some items struggle to hold their magical properties, and have a low intrinsic CL... regardless of which spells went into them. It's a bit like the way that items in the wrong body slot cost more, but not much.

This seems like a good way of handling it.

If someone wants a higher CL item- they can use the Create Your Own Item rules- and the DM adjucates if such an item can exist.

Magic Item Compendium often has huge discounts for some items- the aforementioned Hat of Anonymity being one.

It's listed as 12500 gp: but a CL7 item of Continuous Nondetection (spell duration is in hours, so no change to cost) would be 7 X 3 X 2000 g: = 42000 gp.

And that's before you get the +5 untyped bonus to Hide- a +5 competence bonus to Hide is worth 2500 gp- so the item adds at least that much to its cost and possibly more.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 09:56 AM
This seems like a good way of handling it.

If someone wants a higher CL item- they can use the Create Your Own Item rules- and the DM adjucates if such an item can exist.

Magic Item Compendium often has huge discounts for some items- the aforementioned Hat of Anonymity being one.

It's listed as 12500 gp: but a CL7 item of Continuous Nondetection (spell duration is in hours, so no change to cost) would be 7 X 3 X 2000 g: = 42000 gp.

And that's before you get the +5 untyped bonus to Hide- a +5 competence bonus to Hide is worth 2500 gp- so the item adds at least that much to its cost and possibly more.

Those discounts are instated because nobody would buy that item for 42k, but at 12.5k it's competitively priced and is an actual option.

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 10:06 AM
True. At CL 20, a homebrew version would theoretically be worth 120000 gp before adding the Hide bonus.

Assuming for the moment that the value of the untyped skill bonus is roughly equivalent to the competence bonus (a very generous assumption), getting 42000 gp-worth of magical property for 10000 gp is unusually good, but still reasonable.

Getting 120000 gp-worth of magical property for 10000 gp- perhaps a little too much?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 12:16 PM
Most of the people in this thread are completely ignoring a few facts:

1. The pricing guidelines are for new items, not existing items. A printed magic item has a set price already, there is no provision for modification of its price anywhere in the printed rules. The pricing guidelines are not applicable to existing items, they already have a set-in-stone price which does not even follow that same formula.

2. Magic items have variable caster levels. This is specifically stated in the RAW, when you create a magic item it does not have to have the same caster level as the printed version. This is an allowance intentionally put in place, and a good reason to invest in item creation feats.

3. The caster level of an existing wondrous item is completely independent of its cost. The caster level is variable, the price is not. Some item prices may be dependent on caster level, but this does not mean all items follow that formula. Some items have variable prices (wands, potions, etc.) but this does not mean all items have variable prices.

RAW there is no justification for increasing the price of a wondrous item when one is crafted at a higher caster level using the item creation rules.

Furthermore, Keld Denar: "You can always opt to cast a spell at a CL less than your maximum CL, to a minimum of whatever the minimum is required to cast a spell of that level."
Completely incorrect, DMG page 288: "The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"
You do not cast the spells, you make them available to cast and they become unavailable as though cast, you do not actually cast the spells, so you do not have the option of faking a lower caster level when creating an item. When created the item's caster level is equal to the creator's caster level at the time of creation, no option of setting it any lower. This should be an advantage of investing in item creation feats, but making it increase the cost would be a severe drawback.


Finally, if you were to modify the price of a Hat of Anonymity according to its caster level, it would be as follows:
12,500 gp, +5 unnamed Hide bonus, continuous Nondetection CL 7
DMG page 282 sidebar, multiple different abilities: The lower priced property is 50% more expensive.
+5 skill bonus: 5x5x100=2500, x1.5 multiple different abilities = 3750 gp, assuming unnamed follows the same pricing as competence, though it should be considerably higher.
12500 - 3750 = 8750 gp for the nondetection. 8750/7= 1250xCL gp
Total Cost: 1250 x CL gp + 3750 gp

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 12:27 PM
When created the item's caster level is equal to the creator's caster level at the time of creation, no option of setting it any lower.

Which raises the question of why many of the items in the DMG, by RAW, can't be created by anybody exactly as they are described- since their caster level is lower than the minimum level needed to be able to cast the relevant spell.

A Ring of Mind-Shielding for example- CL3, requires the nondetection spell which is 3rd level- by your interpretation of RAW, no wizard-created Rings of Mind Shielding that match the DMG description fully, can exist.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 12:29 PM
Most of the people in this thread are completely ignoring a few facts:

Would you perhaps discuss the points I posted that both support and refute your opinion on the matter?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 12:29 PM
RAW there is no justification for increasing the price of a wondrous item when one is crafted at a higher caster level using the item creation rules.


So, I can craft eternal wands at arbitrarily high caster levels? Seems doubtful.

There is also no justification for not increasing the price. And every known example of increasing caster level is accompanied by increasing the price.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 12:47 PM
Would you perhaps discuss the points I posted that both support and refute your opinion on the matter?

I'm pretty sure everything you quoted was under the following heading:


Magic Item Gold Piece Values

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items.
You intentionally took those rules out of context. They do not apply to existing printed magic items, only custom-made new magic items for which a price has not yet been given.



So, I can craft eternal wands at arbitrarily high caster levels? Seems doubtful.

I see nothing wrong with creating a 2/day wand which casts a spell at your own caster level. It simply makes these items relevant to the current level of play.

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 12:52 PM
And what about the point that if a high level character tries to duplicate a printed magic item, by your interpretation they can't- the item will always have the higher caster level along with everything else?

(Also, the as-written Hat has a DC of 18, Nondetection has two possible DCs, one 11+CL, the other 15+CL, since the Hat is listed as CL11, this implies it follows the easier DC, therefore more powerful Hats also follow that DC. So a CL20 version would have a DC of 31, not 35.)



I see nothing wrong with creating a 2/day wand which casts a spell at your own caster level. It simply makes these items relevant to the current level of play.

Craft a CL20 Eternal wand at the same price as a CL 1 wand?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 01:02 PM
And what about the point that if a high level character tries to duplicate a printed magic item, by your interpretation they can't- the item will always have the higher caster level along with everything else?
Why couldn't they? The item's caster level would be the same as the creator's caster level at the time of creation, as per RAW. As long as they meet the prerequisites and pay the costs, they can create it. I think you're confusing Caster Level with Item Level:

This book assigns a level rating to each magic item, based on the
item's market price. This is not the same as an item's caster level.
Instead, the level rating of a magic item is a tool for the DM.
Whether you're creating a monster's treasure hoard, building
an NPC opponent, or crafting a player character above 1st level,
choosing the appropriate magic items to include is crucial, and
each item's level helps you do exactly that.

Mechanically, an item's level has no bearing on the game. It
doesn't tell you (except indirectly) how potent the item is, how
much damage it deals, or how difficult it is to suppress or dispel
its effects.


(Also, the as-written Hat has a DC of 18, Nondetection has two possible DCs, one 11+CL, the other 15+CL, since the Hat is listed as CL11, this implies it follows the easier DC, therefore more powerful Hats also follow that DC. So a CL20 version would have a DC of 31, not 35.)

If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.
The hat is in the creator's possession when crafted, the hat is in the wearer's possession when worn, an attended item places the spell effect on himself. There is no reason why it wouldn't get DC 15 + CL instead of 11 + CL.


Craft a CL20 Eternal wand at the same price as a CL 1 wand?

Eternal Wands use both Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand, so as per wand pricing there is a provision for increasing their price based on the increased caster level. There is no such provision for wondrous items and certain other types of items, so RAW those items would not cost any more if created at a higher caster level.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 01:03 PM
You intentionally took those rules out of context. They do not apply to existing printed magic items, only custom-made new magic items for which a price has not yet been given.

A modified existing item is a custom-made item. Any item that does not match exactly what is printed in the DMG is a "custom-made item".

Forged Fury
2010-10-05, 01:10 PM
Which raises the question of why many of the items in the DMG, by RAW, can't be created by anybody exactly as they are described- since their caster level is lower than the minimum level needed to be able to cast the relevant spell.
You could have another spellcaster provide the relevant spell while still maintaining "creator" status.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
With that said, the text for non-consumable magic items does say that the minimum CL is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. For instance, any ring should have a minimum CL of 12 as that is the minimum CL required for the Forge Ring feat, which is a prerequisite. It seems the text would support a 3rd level apprentice wizard (CL3) with Craft Wondrous Item to craft Dimensional Shackles (CL11 Wondrous Item, per the SRD) as long as his (Class Level = Anything > 6) wizard master provided the necessary 4th level spell. Regardless of the master's CL, the item would be a CL 7 item (the higher of the creator's caster level or the minimum CL required to meet the prerequisites).

It really gets messed up when you add in cooperation into magic item creation. But what would D&D be without mass confusion?

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 01:16 PM
The hat is in the creator's possession when crafted, the hat is in the wearer's possession when worn, an attended item places the spell effect on himself. There is no reason why it wouldn't get DC 15 + CL instead of 11 + CL.


Aside from the fact that the official one follows 11+CL?

Casting nondetection on an item is not the same thing as casting nondetection on a person. If you cast it on an item- and give it to a person, only the item is hard to detect.

By crafting the hat, and then giving it to someone- you're doing basically the same thing as casting the spell on the person- except it doesn't wear off unless they remove the item.

And I am not confusing item level with caster level. Ring of Mind Shielding: Caster Level 3, Prerequisite: Nondetection. By your interpretation- cannot be created as described by a normal wizard- since wizards normally can't get nondetection till 5th level. Not to mention that the feat Forge Ring requires you to have a caster level of 12 anyway.

The DMG errata was written in 2004, Magic Item Compendium was written in 2007- and Magic Item Compendium has numerous Rings with low caster levels. And, in some cases, damage appropriate for the low caster levels. Like a ring based on Lightning Bolt, CL5- does 5d6 damage: the Ring of Mystic Flashes.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 01:27 PM
I see nothing wrong with creating a 2/day wand which casts a spell at your own caster level. It simply makes these items relevant to the current level of play.

There's nothing wrong with that at all. The broken part is where the cost is assumed to be constant.

Therefore, buying a wand of Orb of Fire from the shmuck down the street at CL 5 is exactly the same as buying the CL 15 version made by his daddy. Why should that be so?

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 01:28 PM
Even if it was a Necklace of Orb of Fire- the same principle would apply.

Forged Fury
2010-10-05, 01:32 PM
And I am not confusing item level with caster level. Ring of Mind Shielding: Caster Level 3, Prerequisite: Nondetection. By your interpretation- cannot be created as described by a normal wizard- since wizards normally can't get nondetection till 5th level. Not to mention that the feat Forge Ring requires you to have a caster level of 12 anyway.
Yup, minimum CL of any ring should be no less than 12, per the rules, as that is the minimum CL required to meet all the prerequisites.

Lots of items are messed up in the SRD based on a reading of the rules.
Periapt of Wound Closure (should be minimum CL 11)
Phylactery of Faithfullness (should be minimum CL 3)

Stopped at the Ps... the CLs are all kinds of messed up.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 01:59 PM
A modified existing item is a custom-made item. Any item that does not match exactly what is printed in the DMG is a "custom-made item".

The as-printed caster level of an item is how that item is discovered in play, either as loot or from a merchant. When a magic item is created during play it's assigned a caster level based on the creator's caster level, RAW. This requires no customization, it is a built-in provision which is not optional. Every single item created during play will have a caster level based on the creator's caster level, instead of the printed caster level. {Scrubbed}


Aside from the fact that the official one follows 11+CL?

If you're referring to "Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) abjuration" you are mistaken, every item in that book has a similar entry, this is the Spellcraft DC for purposes of casting Detect Magic. The item itself gives no DC for the Nondetection effect, so it must be assumed that it's based on the CL of the item. Looking a few pages back at the Masking armor property, it gives a set DC of 25 in its description, and oh! look! Caster level 10, so DC 15 + CL.

hamishspence
2010-10-05, 02:09 PM
Yup, minimum CL of any ring should be no less than 12, per the rules, as that is the minimum CL required to meet all the prerequisites.

Per the errata, maybe. Pre-errata, caster level was "determined by the item itself" so even if you had to be higher level to have the feat, the item could still have a lower caster level:


For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

I'm beginning to think that whoever wrote the errata had no input whatsever into the MiC- and that the MiC book was written based on the assumption that the normal pre-errata rules were in use.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 02:19 PM
The as-printed caster level of an item is how that item is discovered in play, either as loot or from a merchant. When a magic item is created during play it's assigned a caster level based on the creator's caster level, RAW. This requires no customization, it is a built-in provision which is not optional. Every single item created during play will have a caster level based on the creator's caster level, instead of the printed caster level. {Scrubbed}Please do not put words in my mouth. All I have stated is that there is evidence from un-errata'd parts of the DMG, from the FAQ, and from the errata that does and does not support your opinion. You, thus far, have provided one passage of evidence that supports your opinion. Perhaps if you were to elaborate rather than repeat the same argument you have previously made, this would not escalate as it has.

Forged Fury
2010-10-05, 02:37 PM
When a magic item is created during play it's assigned a caster level based on the creator's caster level, RAW. This requires no customization, it is a built-in provision which is not optional. Every single item created during play will have a caster level based on the creator's caster level, instead of the printed caster level.

RAW actually says:

For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
The word "determined" can have multiple meanings, although one interpretation is that the creator would be able to choose the CL, particularly when combined with the last sentence. Note that the last sentence is not solely ascribed to consumable magic items such as potions, scrolls, or wands.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 03:11 PM
Please do not put words in my mouth. All I have stated is that there is evidence from un-errata'd parts of the DMG, from the FAQ, and from the errata that does and does not support your opinion. You, thus far, have provided one passage of evidence that supports your opinion. Perhaps if you were to elaborate rather than repeat the same argument you have previously made, this would not escalate as it has.

There is only one necessary argument to make, that existing items have a set price, and that when creating those during play their caster level is variable yet the price is still fixed. There have been multiple references to the custom magic item pricing guidelines in this thread, but those guidelines have absolutely nothing to do with existing items or their set-in-stone prices. You have tried to refer to created-in-play items as custom items due to the variable caster level in order to reference that set of guidelines even though it is in no way applicable. I was not putting words into your mouth, I was pointing out what you were doing. Any reference to the custom magic item pricing guidelines is irrelevant to this debate, this is not about custom magic items, it is about creating printed magic items with the RAW caster level difference.


The word "determined" can have multiple meanings, although one interpretation is that the creator would be able to choose the CL, particularly when combined with the last sentence. Note that the last sentence is not solely ascribed to consumable magic items such as potions, scrolls, or wands.

Multiple different characters can contribute to the creation of a magic item. One character has the item creation feat, another character provides the required spells. One of those characters is considered the creator of that item, that character pays the XP cost and determines the item's caster level. If one of the contributors' caster level is too low to meet all of the prerequisites for that item, that character cannot be the one to pay the XP cost or determine its caster level. The errated paragraph begins by saying that the creator can choose the caster level of certain items, then goes on to say that other items must use the creator's caster level, and finally it stats the minimum caster level for the creator of a magic item. The caster level of an item created in play is equal to its creator's caster level at the time of creation for those types of items. Characters are not burdened by higher item costs in the later levels due to this. Anything different would be a house rule.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 03:15 PM
There is only one necessary argument to make, that existing items have a set price, and that when creating those during play their caster level is variable yet the price is still fixed. There have been multiple references to the custom magic item pricing guidelines in this thread, but those guidelines have absolutely nothing to do with existing items or their set-in-stone prices. You have tried to refer to created-in-play items as custom items due to the variable caster level in order to reference that set of guidelines even though it is in no way applicable. I was not putting words into your mouth, I was pointing out what you were doing. Any reference to the custom magic item pricing guidelines is irrelevant to this debate, this is not about custom magic items, it is about creating printed magic items with the RAW caster level difference.
So you contend that an item that is not listed in the DMG is a custom item, whereas an altered item is not?

I believe you would have a hard time finding anyone to agree with that.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 03:25 PM
So you contend that an item that is not listed in the DMG is a custom item, whereas an altered item is not?

I believe you would have a hard time finding anyone to agree with that.

Creating an existing magic item with its caster level set to your own caster level is not optional. By your reasoning, unless the character creating an item happens to be exactly the same level as the item's printed caster level, all items created during play are custom magic items.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 03:33 PM
Creating an existing magic item with its caster level set to your own caster level is not optional.Yes it is.


While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.


By your reasoning, unless the character creating an item happens to be exactly the same level as the item's printed caster level, all items created during play are custom magic items.

Items crafted by players are indeed custom items--they are making it, after all.

Forged Fury
2010-10-05, 03:39 PM
If one of the contributors' caster level is too low to meet all of the prerequisites for that item, that character cannot be the one to pay the XP cost or determine its caster level.
Where is this listed? I don't see it in the DMG.

The errated paragraph begins by saying that the creator can choose the caster level of certain items, then goes on to say that other items must use the creator's caster level, and finally it stats the minimum caster level for the creator of a magic item. The caster level of an item created in play is equal to its creator's caster level at the time of creation for those types of items.
That's an interesting interpretation. The official DMG errata states:

Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: "For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given."
If one were to go with your interpretation, it would have made more sense to state: "For other magic items, the caster level is equal to the creator's caster level at the time of the item's creation." or even "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator's caster level."

Instead, the wording used pretty clearly places the CL choice in the creator's hands rather than in an immutable component of the creator over which they have no control.

Edit: Thanks Fax, I was looking for that string of text all over the place. I knew it was somewhere in the SRD.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-05, 04:59 PM
It makes sense to me that when a higher level character creates magic items, those items get saving throws and dispel DCs on par with their current level. It would be unfair to penalize them for investing in item creation feats and expecting their items to be on par with their level by having to pay more for them. The designers clearly agree with this, because the RAW says this is exactly how it works.

Fax Celestis
2010-10-05, 05:01 PM
If that were the case, then why would you even be given the option to voluntarily lower your CL when crafting an item, other than to lower the price to a more affordable status?

Forged Fury
2010-10-05, 05:17 PM
It would be unfair to penalize them for investing in item creation feats and expecting their items to be on par with their level by having to pay more for them.
Do you think it's unfair that a spell's DC doesn't change when it is cast by a higher level caster?

Unless, you know, you "pay" more for it through Heighten Spell. Sometimes the magic system isn't fair.

Honestly though, I really don't have that much of an issue with a high CL item creator being able to create a "standard item" with a higher CL and not having to pay more for it. Mainly because it's more effort than I would want to expend trying to figure out how much to price the increased benefit.

My main point is that: Yes, an item creator can set the CL of an item lower than their own if they want, as long as the CL supports the minimum CL requirements called for by the prerequisites.

hamishspence
2010-10-06, 02:44 AM
The designers clearly agree with this, because the RAW says this is exactly how it works.

The writers of one errata might agree (depending on interpretation of said errata)- the designers of the original DMG clearly don't agree, otherwise they wouldn't have said the CL of an item is determined by the item.

And the writers of subsequent books (post errata) have numerous items (such as rings) which have CLs lower than the item creation prerequisite CL.