Airbending Awesomeness

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, I've just watched the first two seasons of Avatar The Last Airbender with my brother, and I've got one thing to say.

HOLY ELEPHANT-MACKEREL WHAT HAVE I BEEN MISSING?!

Excellent animation, a surprisingly mature plot for a childrens' show, a great balance of jokes and seriousness, and perfect material for good-natured MST3K-style ribbings.

Seriously, I should never have doubted you guys here, it's a pretty awesome show. And no, I don't plan on ever seeing the live-action bastardization. My brother saw that before he started watching the show, and he confirmed that it sucked, especially when compared to the show.

[horngeek]

Another convert, eh? :smallamused:

And yeah, brilliant show. Must be one of the most-watched outside the official intended demographic.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I was not converted, my eyes were simply opened. I'm just concerned that I might not get to see the third season. I don't know if the guy who loaned my brother the first two has it, and he's moving to Texas soon.

[John Cribati]

there exists a fansite that apparently, got past all the legal red tape, because they have all the episodes available for viewing. It's called The Avatar Portal.

I warn you, though, may fans were disappointed with season 3. While by no means bad, IMHO, It falls back on the episodic/filler-ish nature of Season 1, mainly because Mike and Bryan wrote themselves into a corner with the whole eclipse business. Only about 3 episodes before the mid-season 2-parter are actually relevant to the overarching plot (Take down Ozai)- the rest are mostly character stuff.

[Starbuck_II]

While the anime is awesome: I thought the live action was a decdent retelling.

[John Cribati]

*Barely restrains inner rabid fanboy from horribly maiming Starbuck*

*deep breath*

1: Avatar: the Last Airbender is not an anime. I'm not sure why I'm offended that people call it that, but I am. It is in a mostly anime style, but it is not anime.

2: Most fans would not agree with your assessment of the movie. They would say that it was Shyamalan making a mockery of the beloved world and characters that Bryke created.

[druid91]

*Barely restrains inner rabid fanboy from horribly maiming Starbuck*

*deep breath*

1: Avatar: the Last Airbender is not an anime. I'm not sure why I'm offended that people call it that, but I am. It is in a mostly anime style, but it is not anime.

2: Most fans would not agree with your assessment of the movie. They would say that it was Shyamalan making a mockery of the beloved world and characters that Bryke created.


Yeah once I found out fire benders, couldn't make fire by concentrating ambient heat, combined with the cruddy showing of earth bending in the commercials....

[Moff Chumley]

That show defined a large part of my childhood... we may not have had Invader Zim or that generation, but at least we had Avatar. :smallcool:

[Lord Seth]

Well, I've just watched the first two seasons of Avatar The Last Airbender with my brother, and I've got one thing to say.

HOLY ELEPHANT-MACKEREL WHAT HAVE I BEEN MISSING?!

Excellent animation, a surprisingly mature plot for a childrens' show, a great balance of jokes and seriousness, and perfect material for good-natured MST3K-style ribbings.

Seriously, I should never have doubted you guys here, it's a pretty awesome show.Prepare to be massively disappointed by season three.

[The Rose Dragon]

Prepare to be massively disappointed in virtually every way possible by season three.

Note: This is only true for really low values of "massively" and "every".

[horngeek]

Prepare to be massively disappointed by season three.

Disagreement here. I wasn't that disappointed.

[Lord Seth]

Note: This is only true for really low values of "massively" and "every".I realized I was exaggerating a bit and removed "every". But season three was definitely a big disappointment.

[The Rose Dragon]

I realized I was exaggerating a bit and removed "every". But season three was definitely a big disappointment.

For you, maybe. Not for everyone.

[John Cribati]

Meh. To each his own. Seth just doesn't like Season 3. I accept that. Doesn't stop me from liking it for what it was. Do I think season 3 could have been better? Yeah. I was braced for it, though. I knew that "waiting for the eclipse" thing would come back and bite the plot in the ass. With Aang injured and needing to recover, and the eclipse not possible till around the middle of summer, I knew that they'd have some kind of padding eventually. And we got a bit of world/character building out of it, so I can't really complain.

[Claudius Maximus]

Yeah, and season 3 gave us the villain beach party episode, which I think I enjoyed entirely too much.

[John Cribati]

Yeah, and season 3 gave us the [snipped white text] episode, which I think I enjoyed entirely too much.

That's also the one that most of the Season 3 "haters" hated the most.

I liked it, though. But Ember Island Players was my favorite, besides the finale. And even I didn't very much like the resolution of the Aang/Ozai fight, if only because it seemed to come out of nowhere on first glance.

[Lord Seth]

That's also the one that most of the Season 3 "haters" hated the most.I don't know, The Painted Lady is in some competition for that spot. But I will say that I, at least, felt The Beach was the worst episode of the entire series.

[horngeek]

I don't know, The Painted Lady is in some competition for that spot. But I will say that I, at least, felt The Beach was the worst episode of the entire series.

Disagreement, again.

Let's just say it's a matter of opinion.

[Thufir]

Season 3 was brilliant. How can you hate something with lines like

"NOOOO! MY ROYAL PARTS ARE SHOWIIIING!"

I mean, seriously.

[Rae Artemi]

That show defined a large part of my childhood... we may not have had Invader Zim or that generation, but at least we had Avatar. :smallcool:

Wait a minute Moff, how old are you? Because I'm fifteen, and I would say that Invader Zim or Dragon Ball Z defined a much larger part of my childhood than Avatar did. I mean I liked Avatar and everything, but I never stayed up until 4:00 A.M. to watch it or bought every one of it's video games and pretended to be benders with my friends. Ahh, good times, good times. [/cosmo]

[Platinum_Mongoose]

W...Because I'm fifteen, and I would say that Invader Zim or Dragon Ball Z defined a much larger part of my childhood than Avatar did.[/cosmo]

I feel old. Avatar defined my college experience.

[Zevox]

If you like the show, there's more to look forward to yet. Next year the sequel show, Avatar: The Legend of Korra, will be coming. It will focus on Aang's successor as Avatar, a waterbender girl named Korra, who has already learned earth and firebending, and has to learn airbending from Aang's son, as well as deal with anti-bender sentiments in a new location known as Republic City, which is home to benders from all the nations. Though rumor has it that it'll only be a 12-episode miniseries, but it's still something to look forward to.

But yeah, season 3. I'd agree that it wasn't as good on the whole as seasons 1 and 2, but it's not as bad as Seth says IMO. The biggest problem is the pacing, with the first half of the season being padded out so the Day of Black Sun could occur in the middle at episode 10. Second biggest problem is the finale which... well, I won't spoil it. It's not all bad - in fact, one of the two moments of the series that causes me to tear up is in it - but suffice to say I have some significant criticisms.

The worst episode of the series is in season 3 I'd say, but personally I think that's Nightmares and Daydreams, not The Beach (which I kind of liked).

Zevox

[Moff Chumley]

Wait a minute Moff, how old are you? Because I'm fifteen, and I would say that Invader Zim or Dragon Ball Z defined a much larger part of my childhood than Avatar did. I mean I liked Avatar and everything, but I never stayed up until 4:00 A.M. to watch it or bought every one of it's video games and pretended to be benders with my friends. Ahh, good times, good times. [/cosmo]

Just a year older. But, um, wouldn't you have been six when Invader Zim was cancelled, then? :smallconfused: I didn't do any of the stay up late, buy video game things (notice the ommision here. :smalltongue:), but Avatar was still a pretty huge deal. :smallcool:

[Rae Artemi]

Just a year older. But, um, wouldn't you have been six when Invader Zim was cancelled, then?

Exactly. I remember when Invader Zim first came out, I remember having to watch the new episodes as soon as they came out, and I remember being sad and confused when it stopped coming on, and then extremely happy when I first got Nicktoons Network and found out they still played it. The stay up until four to watch it was the only one that applied to Zim though, the others were all DBZ All the way.

[Lord Seth]

Season 3 was brilliant. How can you hate something with lines like

"NOOOO! MY ROYAL PARTS ARE SHOWIIIING!"

I mean, seriously.How can I hate season three? Well I'm glad you asked that question, because that gives me an opportunity to explain it!First, how it begins. We had a very effective cliffhanger ending in the previous season. Okay, we all know Aang's going to survive, but we didn't know how or what they were planning to do now that their plan had fallen apart. So, how do they go about resolving this cliffhanger? Why, by having it resolved off screen, of course. Instead we get told second-hand about what happened. What would've worked better would have been to have an episode at the start of the season showing us what happened and keeping up the suspense rather than ruining all suspense and telling us what had happened. Given how much filler we'll have to sit through after this it seems like an extra episode would have been a good move at alleviating it a little of it.

And that brings us to the issue of filler. To be blunt, you can skip pretty much every non-Zuko-related scene in episodes 2 through 9 and you will miss nothing; also, of the Zuko-related scenes, skip the episode "The Beach" which is the worst episode of the series. Yes, I know there was fanservice. I do not disapprove of fanservice. I do, however, think that fanservice shouldn't get in the way of the plot. And there is no plot in that episode. They go to the beach, and that's it. If I wanted to watch Baywatch, I would've watched Baywatch! I mean, the original Star Trek had plenty of fanservice. But I can't think of a single time the fanservice got in the way of the plot. Even when the plots were stupid (and during season three of the original Star Trek, there were plenty of those), the fanservice was just there in addition to the plot. Cut out the fanservice in a Star Trek episode and you still have a plot. Cut out the fanservice of The Beach and you're left with nothing.

In a desperate attempt to justify the episode's existence, they try a "character building" session at the end when Zuko, Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee talk about their pasts. The dialogue is so awkward and unnatural it's cringe-inducing, and I don't learn anything that's even moderately interesting about them. Ty Lee saying she was often ignored because she had lots of siblings doesn't tell me anything about her character, for example, and isn't even brought up again. So the episode is 95% plot-less fanservice and 5% really, really bad attempts at building up character. This is the one and only episode of Avatar that I was honestly embarrassed to be watching. Say what you will about episodes like The Great Divide, at least they had plots.

Also on the list of problems with the filler episodes, there's a lot of build-up with no pay-off. We see plenty of Iroh in prison getting himself stronger and preparing for a breakout, and then he breaks out (off screen). And after spending half the season building that up, he's absent for the rest of the season until the finale, in which he does almost nothing of any consequence. There's also bloodbending: They devote an entire episode exclusively to this. And what happens? It's used once in The Southern Raiders, and its usage is so short and immaterial it could've been cut out entirely. It feels like they realized at the last minute they spent a whole episode on it and didn't have any idea what to do with it, so they quickly crammed it into an episode and called it a day. Ditto with Sokka learning swordplay, a plot point that went nowhere.

I know what some people are going to say. "But they weren't filler, they were character episodes!" Now, character episodes can be interesting. But there are some problems with that argument for season three. First, they're all in a row with no plot advancement whatsoever outside of Zuko's character development (which frequently is only a small part of the episode). Secondly, we know these characters already, and we don't learn anything during these episodes that actually make them more interesting. Finally, it is possible to combine plot advancement with character development! They managed it in season two, didn't they?

Now some people might proclaim "But what about season one? That took even longer to get to the North Pole, a full season, whereas here it was just half a season until Day of Black Sun." There are some problems with that. First, it was the first season, they were figuring things out, and did get things figured out by the end of the season, given how awesome season two was. So that's no excuse for season three, by which time they should've known better. Secondly, in season one, it felt like they were making real progress towards their goal, whereas here it felt like they were just meandering around and killing time. That one's a bit hard to explain, but that's how it felt. Third, season one was the first season, so it was important to do some worldbuilding and developing the characters, so the slower pace worked okay then. In fact, I could've excused the weak pacing in season three if there had been any real worldbuilding. I was really looking forward to learning more about the Fire Nation, and I can say that I probably learned more about the Fire Nation in the first five or so minutes of the first season episode "The Deserter" than I did in the entire third season.

Okay, writing-wise it's awkward to put a paragraph break here, but I didn't want to get too wall-of-text on you. So, to continue: Fourth, some of the things that seemed to be one-shot in season one at first ended up paying off, like Jet and the Kyoshi Warriors, whereas really nothing that's set up in season three pays off (except for Zuko's character development, but that really comprises only a small portion of it compared to the Unexciting Filler Adventures of Aang and Company™). Fifth, in season one we had Zuko as an interesting recurring antagonist, whereas here we had Combustion Man, who, to quote Yu-Gi-Oh: The Abridged Series, apparently had the motto of "I have no personality whatsoever! Cower before my blandness!" Sixth--and I'll admit this one is a minor point--what bugs is early on Sokka talks about how they have to move really fast to get to the invasion spot on time, but they constantly meander around and take their time, and still get there early. Nice continuity!

There is one another point that should be addressed regarding the filler, because I keep seeing people bring it up. In regards to The Beach, The Painted Lady, or The Headband, I see them defended on the basis that "they show that not everyone in the Fire Nation is evil." Okay, fair enough. But in that case, why do we need three episodes (none of which are particularly interesting) to show us that?

I could go on about the filler issue, but I think I've made my point. I find it truly baffling that they put Day of Black Sun so late in the season. Had it been moved up, we wouldn't have had to wait through all that filler, and we could've had a more interesting story in the latter portion of the season.

So finally, we get to Day of Black Sun. They've spent about two seasons building up to this point. So what happens? They get their butts kicked and end up in pretty much the same position they were in the end of season two. Nice to know we spent all that time waiting through filler episodes for an event that just sent them more or less back to where they were before the filler episodes. The only real change is that Zuko is a good guy now, and we didn't need ELEVEN EPISODES for that to happen. Also on the list of set-up with no pay-off, they take that one wheelchair kid whose name escapes me with them when they flee, and he does nothing of any consequence whatsoever.

Okay, I've complained a lot, but this is the point where the season starts turning itself around to a certain extent. Even if Day of Black Sun did have its problems, at least things were happening in it and the story was moving forward. And the episodes between Day of Black Sun and the finale are definitely a big improvement over the episodes before Day of Black Sun. Unfortunately, they also suffer from some problems. Take The Boiling Rock Part 2. Why did they make that a Part 2? The episode had justified its existence by having them free Suki; they could've had it end with them escaping. Instead, they drag it on for another episode in order to rescue Sokka's father, who does diddly-squat afterwards and soon disappears (as does that other prisoner they rescued and that wheelchair guy). Did I mention how often they set things up with no payoff in this season?

Still, I won't go TOO hard on the post-Day of Black Sun episodes in season three. While they certainly had problems in them, they were at least entertaining and weren't a lengthy procession of filler. But there is one other thing that stood out at me as a problem: In Day of Black Sun, Aang and Katara kiss. Okay, reasonable enough, it's a progression in their relationship. The problem is that the two completely forget about it and don't bring it up again until about six episodes later in The Ember Island Players. It seems that something like that would merit more immediate discussion.

Speaking of The Ember Island Players, I did really like that episode outside of the problem that they decided to wait six episodes to bring that plot point up again, though I understand that's a love-it-or-hate-it episode. Now, back when it was originally being aired, after watching The Ember Island Players, I was thinking to myself "well, even if the first half of the season sucked, I can at least say they got it together and it improved in the second half, and that portion was, if a bit flawed, still worth watching." Unfortunately, that hope was dashed into pieces by the finale. I can write an essay on everything that went wrong in that mess that would put this essay to shame.

In summary, the problems of season three are...
1) Too many filler episodes early on
2) Said filler episodes being low quality in addition to being filler
3) Too many times things are set up without a decent follow-through
4) The villains being uninteresting; Combustion Man had no personality and Ozai did pretty much nothing until the finale. Speaking of which...
5) The finale in its entirety.


But yeah, season 3. I'd agree that it wasn't as good on the whole as seasons 1 and 2, but it's not as bad as Seth says IMO.The thing is, as a whole, I don't consider season 3 bad (though certain parts of it certainly were) but it wasn't good either. The best word I can use to describe it is disappointing. As I remarked, if season 1 was when they were figuring out what worked, and season 2 was when they used what they had figured out, then season 3 was when they completely forgot everything they figured out.


The biggest problem is the pacing, with the first half of the season being padded out so the Day of Black Sun could occur in the middle at episode 10. Second biggest problem is the finale which... well, I won't spoil it. It's not all bad - in fact, one of the two moments of the series that causes me to tear up is in it - but suffice to say I have some significant criticisms.I think if you ultimately try to trace back all of the problems in season three to one singular source, it all comes down to this: The writers had no idea where they were going. That's why we constantly have things built up and then dropped. That's why things happen in the finale that just plain don't make sense with what happened previously and why things in the finale that should have been built up instead come straight out of nowhere.


The worst episode of the series is in season 3 I'd say, but personally I think that's Nightmares and Daydreams, not The Beach (which I kind of liked).Nightmares and Daydreams is another weak episode; it is the most blatantly filler episode in the series. Everyone hates on The Great Divide, but at least something was accomplished in it: They got two warring tribes to get past the great divide and to make up. In Nightmares and Daydreams, they spend the whole thing just waiting around for the eclipse. Sure, the previous episodes amounted to an out-of-universe waiting around for the eclipse, but at least in-universe they were doing something. Here, in AND out of universe they're just waiting around for the eclipse. But The Beach, as I noted, is the one and only episode of Avatar that I was embarrassed to watch, and that's what makes it the worst for me.

[Moff Chumley]

Aside from Avatar, I was never that into TV. *shruggity shrug*

Now I have my Futurama and my Tosh.0 and my South Park and my Scrubs, so it's all good. :smallbiggrin:

[Rae Artemi]

Aside from Avatar, I was never that into TV. *shruggity shrug*

Now I have my Futurama and my Tosh.0 and my South Park and my Scrubs, so it's all good. :smallbiggrin:

Add Adventure Time, Regular Show, and Scooby Doo Mystery Inc to that list, you won't regret it.

[Adumbration]

Jeah, I kinda liked the 3rd season too. (And yes, I absolutely loved the Beach.)

[Douglas]

Hey, Nightmares and Daydreams may have been a filler episode, but I found the hallucination sequence and Aang's dreams to be hilarious.

[Icewalker]

Yup. I'd say, go ahead and expect to be disappointed by season 3, and then if you aren't so much the better!

I'll agree, it's got some filler stuff, but it also has some really good parts, and in the end it manages (most) things REALLY well, such as Azula in the very end. Very well done.

See then the next step to being a crazed fan of Avatar, is to go and extensively and legitimately study and practice Baguazhang, Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Hung Gar Kung Fu, and Tai Chi (Air, Fire, Earth, Water, respectively). Tack on in addition Chu Gar Southern Praying Mantis if you want to get really specific (Toph's personal style of Earthbending).

I'm most interested in Tai Chi and Bagua myself. They're two of the martial arts on my list to look into.

[Mystic Muse]

the only problem I really had with season 3 was the episode with the play. It was uninteresting, and just showing what had happened before.

[Jade_Tarem]

How could you not like The Beach? Besides the obvious, I mean.

Whatever else you may say about it, it gave us the best over-the-top villain gloating ever as Azula stands over the burning volleyball net. End of story.

"YES! We have defeated you for all time! You will never arise from the ashes of your shame and humiliation!" *beat* "Well, that was fun."

[Prime32]

How could you not like The Beach? Besides the obvious, I mean.

Whatever else you may say about it, it gave us the best over-the-top villain gloating ever as Azula stands over the burning volleyball net. End of story.

"YES! We have defeated you for all time! You will never arise from the ashes of your shame and humiliation!" *beat* "Well, that was fun."Except that Azula wasn't a silly over-the-top villain, she was cold and efficient. That just felt out of character for her.

[lord_khaine]

I just gotta ad, that i personaly wasnt disapointet by season 3 either.

[Athaniar]

Yay, Avatar! You guys on this forum are why I started watching it, and its greatness is why I watched all of it.


the only problem I really had with season 3 was the episode with the play. It was uninteresting, and just showing what had happened before.
What, Ember Island Players? I loved it, personally, it was like an abridged series within a series.

[Jade_Tarem]

Except that Azula wasn't a silly over-the-top villain, she was cold and efficient. That just felt out of character for her.

This would be the cold, efficient villain that completely loses her mind before the series is over? The episode was about how wierd the firebending kids actually are due to the messed up lives that they've had.

It did kind of come out the blue, though. I'll grant you that.

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, season three had some of the better lines in the series, such as:

"You know what I just heard? Blah blah spiritiual mumbo jumbo blah blah something about space."

Also:

"I AM MELON LORD!"

Ah, Toph. Where would the series be without you?

[Lord Seth]

I'll agree, it's got some filler stuff, but it also has some really good parts, and in the end it manages (most) things REALLY well, such as Azula in the very end. Very well done.Really? I thought Azula, along with most things in the finale, was pretty terribly handled.

[Thufir]

Except that Azula wasn't a silly over-the-top villain, she was cold and efficient. That just felt out of character for her.

It made sense to me. She's great at... well, basically, being a villain, but she has no idea how to deal with people who don't fall into the categories of 'servants' or 'enemies'.


Really? I thought Azula, along with most things in the finale, was pretty terribly handled.

You may have noticed a lot of people disagree with you.

[Claudius Maximus]

For some reason I have the impression that Zousha hasn't seen season 3, so can we please not post spoilery information about season 3 out in the open?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Aw, but I like spoilery information! :smalltongue:

[druid91]

I just had a mental image, Mark Hamill in the live action movie as Firelord Ozai! the voice would be right and everthing!

[Violet Octopus]

I also enjoyed Season 3 the first time around, more so than I enjoyed season 1. This is probably due to being more emotionally attached to the characters by that point, so maybe when I watch it again I'll see its flaws.

While it's by no means my favourite thing about the show, or the most notable thing about it, I want to mention how happy I was to see a male protagonist who's vegetarian. In an American kid's cartoon.

His relative non-angstiness was pretty charming, too.

[lord_khaine]

But the TRUE hero of the story loved meat (and sarcasm).

[Rae Artemi]

But the TRUE hero of the story loved meat (and sarcasm).

You mean Wang Fire?

[Thufir]

His relative non-angstiness was pretty charming, too.

Though if he had been angsty, it would have been puntastic.
Maybe that was why he avoided it. To deny Sokka the chance of making that pun at his expense.

[John Cribati]

Aw, but I like spoilery information! :smalltongue:

The human Body contains a high percentage of water.

Azula knew about the Day of Black Sun invasion.

Zuko can redirect lightning.

Sokka breaks into FireNation!Alcatraz

Ozai Loses fights Aang. And Loses.

Azula fights Zuko. And Wins (technically).

Azula fights Katara. And loses.

[Rockphed]

Wait, how can anybody dislike the Momo and Apa fight scene with Koala-sheep cheerleaders? I mean really, that was practically the best thing ever. Okay, it was really about the only thing in that episode that was at all good, but I still have a fondness for talking animals.

Also, while I felt the episode with the polluted river was anvilicious, I think it gave us insight into the world that we would otherwise have missed.

Then again, I am pretty much convinced that there isn't a single avatar, but rather 8 of them, each coming forth in turn. Not only does that jive better with my own personal theology, but it jives better with the evidence we see in the show: namely Aang's frequent discussions with his past lives.

[Zevox]

Wait, how can anybody dislike the Momo and Apa fight scene with Koala-sheep cheerleaders? I mean really, that was practically the best thing ever. Okay, it was really about the only thing in that episode that was at all good, but I still have a fondness for talking animals.
Because it made no sense and wasn't funny. Really, that entire episode was just bad for me. No plot advancement, no character development, no action, nothing new to see about the world, and the attempts at humor all fell horribly flat for me, and felt like they belonged in some other cartoon altogether.

Zevox

[Delusion]

"No Firelord Ozai! YOU are not wearing pants!"
Well apart from that line and Appa and Momo showdown I didn't like that episode.

Though apart from few fillers, I enjoyed the third season immensly(sp).

[Mystic Muse]

Because it made no sense and wasn't funny.

This depends on your sense of humor. I thought it was hilarious. However, it would have been better in season 1.

[TigerLotus]

Actually I thought the appa and momo fight was kind of funny. Though I indeed have to definitely say the plot was going nowhere in that episode almost like it was a thick fog where everything in the plot was too similar and the same and like fog not going anywhere. But there still were some quality bits in it.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I don't understand why people dislike Season 3, especially The Beach. I didn't find the dialogue unnatural (except where it was supposed to be, ie Azula's flirting), and I thought it was an interesting look into the psyches of Zuko and Ozai's Angels.

It even provides foreshadowing for Azula's breakdown:

Azula:*quietly* My own mother thought I was a monster... *stares into flames. Then, with sudden (forced?) cheer* She was right, of course, but it still hurt.
sets us up for

Azula: All right hair, it's time to face your doom. *she cuts her bangs and smiles crazily at her reflection. Her face falls at the sight of her mother in the mirror.*
Ursa: What a shame. You always had such beautiful hair.
Azula: What are you doing here?
Ursa: I didn't want to miss my own daughter's coronation.
Azula: Don't pretend to act proud. I know what you really think of me. You think I'm a monster.
Ursa: I think you're confused. All your life, you've used fear to control people, like your friends Mai and Ty Lee.
Azula: But what choice do I have?! Trust is for fools. Fear is the only reliable way... even you fear me.
Ursa: No. I love you, Azula. I do.
*Azula's lower lip trembles as tears begin to run down her face. She yells, throwing her hairbrush at the mirror and shatters it. Azula then falls to the floor and cries, clearly alone, and hallucinating*

[John Cribati]

I admit that the dialogue around the angst campfire was a bit sub-par. But they're teenagers, in the throes of angst. People aren't articulate all the time, you know.

[Xondoure]

Personally I wouldn't have had a problem with season three if Zuko hadn't become the main character, or at least the only interesting one for most of the season. With twinkletoes only taking his rightful place as protagonist at the end of the season. Don't get me wrong, I loved Zuko's development I just wanted everyone else's to be better.

[Yulian]

This would be the cold, efficient villain that completely loses her mind before the series is over? The episode was about how wierd the firebending kids actually are due to the messed up lives that they've had.

It did kind of come out the blue, though. I'll grant you that.

This is what I took away from that episode. You start to understand how deeply messed up Zuko and Azula are and why.

I do agree that season 3 had a bit more filler in it, but the reason was already stated, so that mid-season would fall on the particular story it did.

- Yulian

[Lord Seth]

There were a few things in Nightmares and Daydreams I found funny, but for the most part, as I said, it was the most blatantly filler episode of the series. Even in-universe it was filler.

Though if you want to know why I thought Azula was handled badly in the finale, here's why...Problem #1: The whole set-up for them fighting her doesn't make sense. Actually, the splitting up doesn't make any real sense when you think about it. The blimps must be stopped immediately and if they succeed, the Fire Nation pretty much wins. It doesn't make sense to split up your forces when one objective is critical and must be done immediately, while the other ones (Ba Sing Se and Azula) are not as critical and can wait. Not to mention that they had no idea she had gotten rid of the guards either. It doesn't make sense.

As an analogy, suppose you have a test tomorrow that's 90% of your grade. You have two projects due in two weeks that are 5% of your grade. What the characters did in the finale was, rather than devote all study time to the test, to instead split up time among the three things. Which is extremely stupid.

Problem #2: If Iroh was so worried that him fighting Ozai would look like a grab for power to the Fire Nation people, why is Zuko fighting Azula to gain power any different?

Problem #3: Not so much related to Azula, but this is annoying and bears mentioning. It has been hammered into our heads that to use lightning, you must be at inner peace; that's the reason Zuko couldn't use it for a while. Azula, meanwhile, is all insane and stuff, and still can use lightning just fine. Maybe people will say I'm nitpicking, but they definitely made a big deal out of Zuko's inability to use fire due to inner turmoil, but Azula can use it just fine despite suffering from that.

Problem #4: Azula wasn't interesting to watch in the finale. Azula was fun to watch in previous episodes, so naturally they decide to take away everything that made her interesting! Gone is the Azula that was awesome, instead we get a whiny Azula who's boring. For comparison...(Death Note spoilers)Light has a major breakdown at the end of Death Note, probably even more extreme than Azula's. But we didn't have to wait through a few chapters of Light whining and moping to get there. Light was the same calm and in control (and as a result entertaining) character he always was prior to it. This furthermore makes his breakdown all the more shocking and powerful. It shows that this time, he really has no way out.In Avatar, we meanwhile have to wait through tedious scenes of Azula, and since it's so blatant what's going to happen there's no shock value at her breakdown. Now, a breakdown can be done gradually, over time, but it's really rushed in the finale. Which means her breakdown takes too long to work on a shock level, but it's too rushed to work on a gradual level. As a result, we get a prolonged (or rushed, depending on how you look at it) "going crazy" on the part of Azula that removes all the parts that were entertaining about her character. I'm fine with a villainous breakdown; I'm not fine with it when it intrudes majorly on what was great about a character.

Problem #5: This was Zuko's fight to win. There were major things going on between him and Azula, and him beating her would've been a good completion for his character. Instead, Katara--who I'm not sure has exchanged more than a few sentences with Azula--is the one to do it. It feels like they couldn't bother to think of a good way to integrate Katara into the finale, so they stuffed her here, even though it didn't work well at all.

And yeah, I know people say "but Zuko's sacrifice showed how far he had come as a character!" As opposed to him clearly turning good and helping out the good guys? We didn't need any kind of confirmation of his heel face turn being genuine, we already knew that. Him jumping in front of Katara is just redundant. (Incidentally, any reason Katara couldn't have just ducked out of the way rather than standing there dumbly, incidentally? Or Zuko blocking Azula's flame with his own fire? If Zuko has enough time to leap in front of Katara, it seems both of those are options) For another example of how to do it right, time for Power Rangers Time Force spoilers:When Eric takes a blast for Wes and his father, it does show how far he's come. Throughout the series he's become less of a jerk and more willing to work with the Rangers, but he never really fully joined up with them. Him doing it isn't redundant because it does show how far he's come, unlike Zuko where it just tells us what we already know and takes away a victory he should have had in favor of Katara just having something to do.Now I did have some big problems with Power Rangers Time Force's finale, but that was something that was handled well, whereas it was pointless in Avatar's finale.

Problem #6: After all that, we are never given any indication as to what happens to Azula.
I do agree that season 3 had a bit more filler in it, but the reason was already stated, so that mid-season would fall on the particular story it did.What reason was already stated? That "mid-season would fall on the particular story it did"? If you're referring to Day of Black Sun being halfway through the season, there was no need to put it there. It would've been far more beneficial to have it be earlier in the season, like maybe episode 5 or 6. Or maybe not even bother with it at all, given that all it does is provide a reset button. Regardless, there is no good reason I can see to put it so late in the season. Putting it earlier in the season would've removed the need for filler as well as given us a better second half.

[CorrTerek]

...I enjoyed the third season of the series.

Nightmares and Daydreams, Ember Island Players, and The Desert are probably my favorite episodes overall.

[Jade_Tarem]

There were a few things in Nightmares and Daydreams I found funny, but for the most part, as I said, it was the most blatantly filler episode of the series. Even in-universe it was filler.

Though if you want to know why I thought Azula was handled badly in the finale, here's why...Problem #1: The whole set-up for them fighting her doesn't make sense. Actually, the splitting up doesn't make any real sense when you think about it. The blimps must be stopped immediately and if they succeed, the Fire Nation pretty much wins. It doesn't make sense to split up your forces when one objective is critical and must be done immediately, while the other ones (Ba Sing Se and Azula) are not as critical and can wait. Not to mention that they had no idea she had gotten rid of the guards either. It doesn't make sense.

As an analogy, suppose you have a test tomorrow that's 90% of your grade. You have two projects due in two weeks that are 5% of your grade. What the characters did in the finale was, rather than devote all study time to the test, to instead split up time among the three things. Which is extremely stupid.

Problem #2: If Iroh was so worried that him fighting Ozai would look like a grab for power to the Fire Nation people, why is Zuko fighting Azula to gain power any different?

Problem #3: Not so much related to Azula, but this is annoying and bears mentioning. It has been hammered into our heads that to use lightning, you must be at inner peace; that's the reason Zuko couldn't use it for a while. Azula, meanwhile, is all insane and stuff, and still can use lightning just fine. Maybe people will say I'm nitpicking, but they definitely made a big deal out of Zuko's inability to use fire due to inner turmoil, but Azula can use it just fine despite suffering from that.

Problem #4: Azula wasn't interesting to watch in the finale. Azula was fun to watch in previous episodes, so naturally they decide to take away everything that made her interesting! Gone is the Azula that was awesome, instead we get a whiny Azula who's boring. For comparison...(Death Note spoilers)Light has a major breakdown at the end of Death Note, probably even more extreme than Azula's. But we didn't have to wait through a few chapters of Light whining and moping to get there. Light was the same calm and in control (and as a result entertaining) character he always was prior to it. This furthermore makes his breakdown all the more shocking and powerful. It shows that this time, he really has no way out.In Avatar, we meanwhile have to wait through tedious scenes of Azula, and since it's so blatant what's going to happen there's no shock value at her breakdown. Now, a breakdown can be done gradually, over time, but it's really rushed in the finale. Which means her breakdown takes too long to work on a shock level, but it's too rushed to work on a gradual level. As a result, we get a prolonged (or rushed, depending on how you look at it) "going crazy" on the part of Azula that removes all the parts that were entertaining about her character. I'm fine with a villainous breakdown; I'm not fine with it when it intrudes majorly on what was great about a character.

Problem #5: This was Zuko's fight to win. There were major things going on between him and Azula, and him beating her would've been a good completion for his character. Instead, Katara--who I'm not sure has exchanged more than a few sentences with Azula--is the one to do it. It feels like they couldn't bother to think of a good way to integrate Katara into the finale, so they stuffed her here, even though it didn't work well at all.

And yeah, I know people say "but Zuko's sacrifice showed how far he had come as a character!" As opposed to him clearly turning good and helping out the good guys? We didn't need any kind of confirmation of his heel face turn being genuine, we already knew that. Him jumping in front of Katara is just redundant. (Incidentally, any reason Katara couldn't have just ducked out of the way rather than standing there dumbly, incidentally? Or Zuko blocking Azula's flame with his own fire? If Zuko has enough time to leap in front of Katara, it seems both of those are options) For another example of how to do it right, time for Power Rangers Time Force spoilers:When Eric takes a blast for Wes and his father, it does show how far he's come. Throughout the series he's become less of a jerk and more willing to work with the Rangers, but he never really fully joined up with them. Him doing it isn't redundant because it does show how far he's come, unlike Zuko where it just tells us what we already know and takes away a victory he should have had in favor of Katara just having something to do.Now I did have some big problems with Power Rangers Time Force's finale, but that was something that was handled well, whereas it was pointless in Avatar's finale.

Problem #6: After all that, we are never given any indication as to what happens to Azula.What reason was already stated? That "mid-season would fall on the particular story it did"? If you're referring to Day of Black Sun being halfway through the season, there was no need to put it there. It would've been far more beneficial to have it be earlier in the season, like maybe episode 5 or 6. Or maybe not even bother with it at all, given that all it does is provide a reset button. Regardless, there is no good reason I can see to put it so late in the season. Putting it earlier in the season would've removed the need for filler as well as given us a better second half.

Some of this has been debated in another thread.

Problem 1:

The plan comes straight from the teachings of Sun Tzu. They decided to attack the enemy stronghold at the point that it would be weakest - when the enemy was attacking them. The idea was that Zuko would instigate a hostile takeover of the Fire Nation while Aang and crew stopped Ozai's force, and while the Order of the White Lotus retook Ba Sing Se. All of these were critical zones because all of them contained turbocharged firebenders who could start the flaming doom of the Earth Kindom or else cause huge problems. The biggest flaw in the plan was that it hinged on Aang being able to beat Ozai, but then, what plan doesn't rely on the hero in the end?

Problem 2: Because Zuko is the legitimate heir to the throne, not Iroh.

Problem 3: It's more or less shown in the Dragon episode that there are two kinds of firebending - the one that Iroh, Jeong Jeong, and (eventually) Zuko use, which relies on inner peace, and the one that the rest of the firebenders use, which is more like the Dark Side of the Force - giving into anger and whatnot.

Problem 4: Debatable. We only have your word to go on that crazy Azula is boring - some people thought it was interesting to watch. Personally, I would have found a five-second breakdown rather unrealistic. Even if you're 100% correct, though, they didn't do it just to aggravate you.

Problem 5: And also? We don't know that Zuko's turn to the good side is genuine. Remember Season 2? He was supposedly good then, and then his big moment came and BAM, back to team evil. Let me turn the question around - Katara potentially dodging aside, would letting her fry when Azula shot at her have been a "good guy" maneuver?

[littlebottom]

i saw some arguments that avatar is/isnt an anime...

to be honest, it "isnt" but it is.

you have to admit its in an anime style, and if you have to admit that, the only real thing that catagorizes anime IS the style. you dont have to be from japan to draw in an anime style.

admittedly it isnt exactly identicle to a steriotypical anime in things like facial structures, ok it was made for an english speaking audience, but im pretty sure to be anime it doesnt HAVE to be japanese originally, since dubbed anime is still anime.

alot of anime is a manga originally been turned into an animation, but sometimes they only take the basic characters, setting and initial plot and go off and make up stuff of their own anyway, so you can hardly say that it is/isnt anime because it did/didnt follow manga plot. so why cant something have an original plot and be anime?

and since ive not researched deeply into this, feel free to rip me apart, i just wanted to say my piece.

also i heard it was actually animated in japan/by a japanese company? if thats the case it lends itself more to being anime than not. but that is based entirely off of something i think i once heard... so feel free to ignore this paragraph if needs be.

[Zevox]

Though if you want to know why I thought Azula was handled badly in the finale, here's why...Problem #1: The whole set-up for them fighting her doesn't make sense. Actually, the splitting up doesn't make any real sense when you think about it. The blimps must be stopped immediately and if they succeed, the Fire Nation pretty much wins. It doesn't make sense to split up your forces when one objective is critical and must be done immediately, while the other ones (Ba Sing Se and Azula) are not as critical and can wait. Not to mention that they had no idea she had gotten rid of the guards either. It doesn't make sense.

As an analogy, suppose you have a test tomorrow that's 90% of your grade. You have two projects due in two weeks that are 5% of your grade. What the characters did in the finale was, rather than devote all study time to the test, to instead split up time among the three things. Which is extremely stupid.

Problem #2: If Iroh was so worried that him fighting Ozai would look like a grab for power to the Fire Nation people, why is Zuko fighting Azula to gain power any different?

Problem #3: Not so much related to Azula, but this is annoying and bears mentioning. It has been hammered into our heads that to use lightning, you must be at inner peace; that's the reason Zuko couldn't use it for a while. Azula, meanwhile, is all insane and stuff, and still can use lightning just fine. Maybe people will say I'm nitpicking, but they definitely made a big deal out of Zuko's inability to use fire due to inner turmoil, but Azula can use it just fine despite suffering from that.

Problem #4: Azula wasn't interesting to watch in the finale. Azula was fun to watch in previous episodes, so naturally they decide to take away everything that made her interesting! Gone is the Azula that was awesome, instead we get a whiny Azula who's boring. For comparison...(Death Note spoilers)Light has a major breakdown at the end of Death Note, probably even more extreme than Azula's. But we didn't have to wait through a few chapters of Light whining and moping to get there. Light was the same calm and in control (and as a result entertaining) character he always was prior to it. This furthermore makes his breakdown all the more shocking and powerful. It shows that this time, he really has no way out.In Avatar, we meanwhile have to wait through tedious scenes of Azula, and since it's so blatant what's going to happen there's no shock value at her breakdown. Now, a breakdown can be done gradually, over time, but it's really rushed in the finale. Which means her breakdown takes too long to work on a shock level, but it's too rushed to work on a gradual level. As a result, we get a prolonged (or rushed, depending on how you look at it) "going crazy" on the part of Azula that removes all the parts that were entertaining about her character. I'm fine with a villainous breakdown; I'm not fine with it when it intrudes majorly on what was great about a character.

Problem #5: This was Zuko's fight to win. There were major things going on between him and Azula, and him beating her would've been a good completion for his character. Instead, Katara--who I'm not sure has exchanged more than a few sentences with Azula--is the one to do it. It feels like they couldn't bother to think of a good way to integrate Katara into the finale, so they stuffed her here, even though it didn't work well at all.

And yeah, I know people say "but Zuko's sacrifice showed how far he had come as a character!" As opposed to him clearly turning good and helping out the good guys? We didn't need any kind of confirmation of his heel face turn being genuine, we already knew that. Him jumping in front of Katara is just redundant. (Incidentally, any reason Katara couldn't have just ducked out of the way rather than standing there dumbly, incidentally? Or Zuko blocking Azula's flame with his own fire? If Zuko has enough time to leap in front of Katara, it seems both of those are options) For another example of how to do it right, time for Power Rangers Time Force spoilers:When Eric takes a blast for Wes and his father, it does show how far he's come. Throughout the series he's become less of a jerk and more willing to work with the Rangers, but he never really fully joined up with them. Him doing it isn't redundant because it does show how far he's come, unlike Zuko where it just tells us what we already know and takes away a victory he should have had in favor of Katara just having something to do.Now I did have some big problems with Power Rangers Time Force's finale, but that was something that was handled well, whereas it was pointless in Avatar's finale.

Problem #6: After all that, we are never given any indication as to what happens to Azula.
I agree with some, but not all, of your criticisms.
Specifically, I disagree with 4 and 5. I quite enjoyed Azula's part in the finale - it being the only major story arc of the finale that I liked - and did not feel it was either too rushed or too drawn-out. I felt it was quite well-done and a good extension of her character development in the third season. Granted, she could have/should have been more prominent in previous season 3 episodes than she was to enhance this, but it was nonetheless good.

As for Azula vs Zuko, I was quite pleased that they did not go the predictable route and simply have Zuko beat her, choosing instead to show him acting so selflessly at great risk to his own life, and ultimately having Azula beaten by a skillful stratagem of Katara's instead. That, in my opinion, was a satisfying end for both characters.

You're also wrong about the option for him to block her attack with flames, since her attack was a lightning bolt, not fire - that can be blocked by a solid obstacle, but fire is not solid. Maybe Katara could have dodged it or blocked it with ice, but in any event Zuko's jumping in to redirect it made that unnecessary, and in a panicked moment with only instants to react I don't think he'd simply bet on her being able to save herself from such a lethal attack (Azula's lightning basically killed Aang in season 2, and this time it's comet-enhanced - yeah, that's about as dangerous as any attack we ever see in the show) when he could redirect it if he could get in the bolt's path in time.
On the rest however I will agree, plenty of botched things there.

Zevox

[John Cribati]

Problem #3: Not so much related to Azula, but this is annoying and bears mentioning. It has been hammered into our heads that to use lightning, you must be at inner peace; that's the reason Zuko couldn't use it for a while. Azula, meanwhile, is all insane and stuff, and still can use lightning just fine.

Exact words:

Iroh: Lightning is a pure expression of firebending, without aggression. It is not fueled by rage or emotion the way other firebending is. Some call lightning the cold-blooded fire. (Iroh takes the tea kettle off the fire and pours it into another pot. He then begins to pour two cups.) It is precise and deadly, like Azula. To perform the technique requires peace of mind. There is energy all around us. (Cut to a front view of Zuko and Iroh.) The energy is both yin and yang; positive energy and negative energy. (He holds up one finger on each hand to stand for the two forms of energy.) Only a select few firebenders can separate these energies. This creates an imbalance. The energy wants to restore balance and in a moment the positive and negative energy come crashing back together. (He brings his hands together to illustrate the point.) You provide release and guidance, creating lightning.

Actually, I see it as a couple of ways:
1: Despite her cracked psyche, she thought she was still in control, and that was all that mattered.
2: We learn in The Firebending Masters that firebending isn't powered by aggression as much as by a source to focus on. Azula focuses on killing Zuko: Boom, lightning.
3: Azula is just that good. I cannot stress this enough. Azula, whether or not she is the most powerful firebender, definitely has the more finesse than anyone in the world, except possibly Iroh. Iroh only told Zuko about the "no emotion" way that so that Zuko wouldn't blow himself up or something when he tried to conjure it. Meanwhile, Azula runs through drills with lightning every day, so she can still get into that state of mind. Crazy or not, she still had the tactical smarts to go after Katara. She just fell back on a form.

[Jahkaivah]

i saw some arguments that avatar is/isnt an anime...

to be honest, it "isnt" but it is.

you have to admit its in an anime style, and if you have to admit that, the only real thing that catagorizes anime IS the style. you dont have to be from japan to draw in an anime style.

Anime refers to Japanese Animation. Hence why every japanese animation, even those done outside the typical style is called an anime.

Avatar is done in a typical anime style, and therefore referred to as "anime-esque". However given that it isn't japanese it isn't anime.



also i heard it was actually animated in japan/by a japanese company? if thats the case it lends itself more to being anime than not. but that is based entirely off of something i think i once heard... so feel free to ignore this paragraph if needs be.

Alot of animation is outsourced. However it's the creative head that is key, the characters, the story, the concept art, all that is from a western source (of course in turn inspired by various cultures) making it a western show.

[Rae Artemi]

Oh, and Just so everyone knows, Avatar, like many other animated shows, Eastern or Western, was animated in Korea.

[Lord Seth]

The plan comes straight from the teachings of Sun Tzu. They decided to attack the enemy stronghold at the point that it would be weakest - when the enemy was attacking them. The idea was that Zuko would instigate a hostile takeover of the Fire Nation while Aang and crew stopped Ozai's force, and while the Order of the White Lotus retook Ba Sing Se. All of these were critical zones because all of them contained turbocharged firebenders who could start the flaming doom of the Earth Kindom or else cause huge problems. The biggest flaw in the plan was that it hinged on Aang being able to beat Ozai, but then, what plan doesn't rely on the hero in the end?Tell me then, why not take out the blimps and Ozai, and THEN take the Fire Nation capital immediately afterwards? The forces still would've been scattered and confused. And again, there was no pressing need to do it. Heck, it might have been smarter to wait until AFTER the super special awesome firebending powerup had faded. The only thing that was critically important was the blimps. Everything else could wait, and if it was absolutely essential to do it on that day, could have been done after the blimps. If the blimps aren't stopped, then the Fire Nation wins. If they don't beat up Azula on that day or recapture Ba Sing Se on that day, they can just do it later. The blimps are an immediate threat that are the most important and the most critical time-wise. It makes no sense to split up your forces like that.


Problem 2: Because Zuko is the legitimate heir to the throne, not Iroh.Both he and Iroh are banished. Neither are legitimate heirs.


Problem 3: It's more or less shown in the Dragon episode that there are two kinds of firebending - the one that Iroh, Jeong Jeong, and (eventually) Zuko use, which relies on inner peace, and the one that the rest of the firebenders use, which is more like the Dark Side of the Force - giving into anger and whatnot.I'm not talking about firebending here, I'm talking about lightning. It was established that lightning requires mental calmness. Azula did not have that. I'll admit this is more of a minor thing and a bit of a nitpick, but it is annoying.


Problem 4: Debatable. We only have your word to go on that crazy Azula is boring - some people thought it was interesting to watch. Personally, I would have found a five-second breakdown rather unrealistic. Even if you're 100% correct, though, they didn't do it just to aggravate you.My point is that the features of Azula that made her a popular villain aren't being used in the finale. Making the audience wait through all these scenes of Azula not being the Azula that was popular with the fandom is boring.

And when did I ever say they did it to aggravate me? I regard the finale as quite badly written, but I've never claimed that the writers did it to intentionally annoy the fans.


Problem 5: And also? We don't know that Zuko's turn to the good side is genuine. Remember Season 2? He was supposedly good then, and then his big moment came and BAM, back to team evil.So, we seeing him tell his father he's turning good, him fighting off Combustion Man, him teaching Aang firebending, him helping rescue Sokka's father, him helping Katara find her mother's killer, and him fighting against the Fire Nation don't show it's genuine?


Let me turn the question around - Katara potentially dodging aside, would letting her fry when Azula shot at her have been a "good guy" maneuver?You're completely missing my point. The only reason Zuko was in that situation and had to save Katara was because Katara was dumbly standing there. Why was she there? Not for any real story reason, she was there because the writers couldn't think of anything for her to do so they put her there just so she could do something.

In the words of someone from another forum:
But the only reason he was "forced out of the confrontation" was because he had to save Katara, who was standing on the field of battle like an idiot, which SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. Seriously, there's NO good reason for her to have been there. It. Was. STUPID.

[Thufir]

Not foinf to address most of this, but one blatant inaccuracy:


Or Zuko blocking Azula's flame with his own fire?

It wasn't fire, it was lightning.
In fact, that was one of the things which did bother me. Zuko's goading of Azula into using lightning felt incredibly contrived.

[Zevox]

In fact, that was one of the things which did bother me. Zuko's goading of Azula into using lightning felt incredibly contrived.
Nah, that's in keeping with his character. He never was too bright. This is the guy who decided to betray his father, the most powerful and important firebender on the planet, by announcing his intentions in advance to his face. And refused to take advantage of his father's helplessness at the time to simply bring an end to things then and there, even after his father pointed out that he could. And that's just the biggest, most obvious example.

Zevox

[Thufir]

It was more the way he said it. It felt like he was just being a mouthpiece for the writers, who felt they needed to remind us of this important point which we had clearly forgotten about.

[Lord Seth]

I agree with some, but not all, of your criticisms.
Specifically, I disagree with 4 and 5. I quite enjoyed Azula's part in the finale - it being the only major story arc of the finale that I liked - and did not feel it was either too rushed or too drawn-out. I felt it was quite well-done and a good extension of her character development in the third season. Granted, she could have/should have been more prominent in previous season 3 episodes than she was to enhance this, but it was nonetheless good.In concept, I thought it was a cool idea. The main thing is that Azula going all nutso should've been combined with, again, what made her entertaining in the first place. When she was fighting Zuko, they managed to merge those two bits well, with her still being a great villain, but also clearly going over the edge. Azula whining and crying, on the other hand, just doesn't work out so well.


As for Azula vs Zuko, I was quite pleased that they did not go the predictable route and simply have Zuko beat her, choosing instead to show him acting so selflessly at great risk to his own life, and ultimately having Azula beaten by a skillful stratagem of Katara's instead. That, in my opinion, was a satisfying end for both characters.If they had to bring Katara into it, I would've preferred that Azula had "broken the rules" by attacking her, Katara dodged or something, then she and Zuko beat Azula together. That way Zuko would get the victory also, and in fact it would actually work out better because it'd be showing that Zuko was stronger when working with other people than when working alone. There's not much sense of that in the way it worked out, I feel.


It wasn't fire, it was lightning.You're right, it was lightning. I apologize for my mistake. The frustrating thing is that because I didn't like the finale I don't want to watch it again, but I have to watch it again to make sure I have all my facts right for these things! Heh.

[Jade_Tarem]

Tell me then, why not take out the blimps and Ozai, and THEN take the Fire Nation capital immediately afterwards? The forces still would've been scattered and confused. And again, there was no pressing need to do it. Heck, it might have been smarter to wait until AFTER the super special awesome firebending powerup had faded. The only thing that was critically important was the blimps. Everything else could wait, and if it was absolutely essential to do it on that day, could have been done after the blimps. If the blimps aren't stopped, then the Fire Nation wins. If they don't beat up Azula on that day or recapture Ba Sing Se on that day, they can just do it later. The blimps are an immediate threat that are the most important and the most critical time-wise. It makes no sense to split up your forces like that.

Both he and Iroh are banished. Neither are legitimate heirs.

I'm not talking about firebending here, I'm talking about lightning. It was established that lightning requires mental calmness. Azula did not have that. I'll admit this is more of a minor thing and a bit of a nitpick, but it is annoying.

My point is that the features of Azula that made her a popular villain aren't being used in the finale. Making the audience wait through all these scenes of Azula not being the Azula that was popular with the fandom is boring.

And when did I ever say they did it to aggravate me? I regard the finale as quite badly written, but I've never claimed that the writers did it to intentionally annoy the fans.

So, we seeing him tell his father he's turning good, him fighting off Combustion Man, him teaching Aang firebending, him helping rescue Sokka's father, him helping Katara find her mother's killer, and him fighting against the Fire Nation don't show it's genuine?

You're completely missing my point. The only reason Zuko was in that situation and had to save Katara was because Katara was dumbly standing there. Why was she there? Not for any real story reason, she was there because the writers couldn't think of anything for her to do so they put her there just so she could do something.

In the words of someone from another forum:

1) In a strict, technical sense, you might be correct. On the other hand, I'm going to revise my argument to "it makes for terrible storytelling." Think about it. The big, climactic confrontation with Ozai is completed. THEN we have the big, climactic battle to retake Ba Sing Se. THEN we have the somewhat meh battle to defeat Azula - because as awesome as she was (or was not) by that point, it would have been Azula versus the entire rest of the cast, and even on the best day of her life she's not good enough to take Zuko + Aang + Iroh + Katara + Sokka + Mai + Ty Lee + the entire Kyoshi Warrior tribe + Appa + Toph + All those dudes from the Black Sun invasion + Bumi + the rest of the OoTWL + whoever else decided to show up and throw down. Heck, any two or three of those would be a fight that she couldn't possibly win. You would end up with a LOTR situation where the finale would have dragged way the heck out and lost impact.

The only downside to doing them all at once would be that people who are far older than the target demographic would over-analyze the plan and point out all the ways that they could have done it better.

2) Nonetheless, the eldest son has a lot more legitimacy to such a claim than Iroh did - Zuko's banishment was kind of a new thing, while 'Iroh isn't going to be the fire lord' has had plenty of time to sink into the minds of the population. Also remember that Iroh's reasoning is for why he shouldn't fight Ozai - no Azula, which was who Zuko was going to fight.

OR: Iroh was lying and just didn't want the job.

OR: Iroh vs. Ozai for a final fight, while badass, would completely sideline Aang, the hero of the show.

OR: Iroh, being a human being and not a logic-enslaved borg construct, felt that he owed it to the people of Ba Sing Se to liberate them as soon as possible. The term 'unfinished business' comes to mind. Besides, there was a prophecy involved and everything. Maybe Iroh was just genre savvy enough to know that he wasn't supposed to be the one to take out Ozai?

3) Maybe Azula is just that badass.

OR: Iroh's explanation of lightning wasn't 100% correct. I mean, he's been wrong before.

4) I'm just going to ask it straight out: How would you have handled Azula toward the end of the show. I actually like your proposed solution to the duel in the post above, but according to you, Azula should have been too damn savvy to get in that situation in the first place.

5) Look, I get what you're saying - but I'm approaching this from the angle of "the lightning is already in the air." I actually agree with you that the whole situation was messed up to begin with, and think that Katara could have done something else.

That said, most duels have witnesses (at least in fiction). Katara was there as the official witness to the Agni-Ki (or whatever it was called). Granted, she could have done that behind some cover, but someone standing on the sidelines of a duel is not that farfetched, and neither is the subconscious assumption that the spectators can't get involved in the fight. Technically, Azula forfeits when she fires lightning at Katara - Katara was probably just surprised, and Zuko had to make a snap judgement, as was already mentioned.

[Zevox]

In concept, I thought it was a cool idea. The main thing is that Azula going all nutso should've been combined with, again, what made her entertaining in the first place. When she was fighting Zuko, they managed to merge those two bits well, with her still being a great villain, but also clearly going over the edge. Azula whining and crying, on the other hand, just doesn't work out so well.
We're just going to have to disagree with that one, then. Azula didn't come across as whiny to me in that finale, simply extremely paranoid and much more emotionally vulnerable than she had been ever before, which was, I feel, perfect for the circumstances. And the two occassions where she did cry I felt were completely appropriate and helped develop her character - and lets be honest, she didn't really get any development in season 2. She was a total badass and an awesome villain, but all we saw of her was the cruel tactical genius and skilled warrior. Going into exactly how screwed up her mind is and why in season 3 like that I felt was an excellent way to do things; and having her, after all the confident stoicism she had exuded throughout the entire rest of the series, actually reveal that there was something that could affect her so deeply as to bring her to tears, I felt succeeded in actually humanizing her to a degree beyond what I would have expected.


If they had to bring Katara into it, I would've preferred that Azula had "broken the rules" by attacking her, Katara dodged or something, then she and Zuko beat Azula together. That way Zuko would get the victory also, and in fact it would actually work out better because it'd be showing that Zuko was stronger when working with other people than when working alone. There's not much sense of that in the way it worked out, I feel.
I'll give you that that might have had the potential to work better - although the fight would still have to get pretty desperate somehow for that to succeed - but nonetheless I was still pleased with how it turned out myself.
Zevox

[John Cribati]

Erm... I think it would be kind of hard to dodge lightning, what with it moving at or near the friggin' speed of light. 200,000,000 meters per second. How Zuko managed to run in front of that is beyond me, though.

[thegurullamen]

Problem #3: Not so much related to Azula, but this is annoying and bears mentioning. It has been hammered into our heads that to use lightning, you must be at inner peace; that's the reason Zuko couldn't use it for a while. Azula, meanwhile, is all insane and stuff, and still can use lightning just fine. Maybe people will say I'm nitpicking, but they definitely made a big deal out of Zuko's inability to use fire due to inner turmoil, but Azula can use it just fine despite suffering from that.

Problem #4: Azula wasn't interesting to watch in the finale. Azula was fun to watch in previous episodes, so naturally they decide to take away everything that made her interesting! Gone is the Azula that was awesome, instead we get a whiny Azula who's boring.

Seeing these two problems next to each other gave me a new perspective on Azula.

In the finale, Azula is on the edge of losing everything. The Boiling Rock incident left her feeling powerless as far as her commanding skills were concerned, for reasons already explained. Losing something so integral to one's self-image is hard on the best of us, let alone the trainwreck that is Azula's psyche. All of that fear and paranoia caused the breakdown centered around her coronation, which of course, is a position centered around her new sore spot.

Despite her issues with conquering/leading/manipulating/being a bitch, she still had one source of power: her firebending. Where deception and manipulation had failed (for the first time in her life, if I remember correctly), she still had complete and utter faith in her firebending skills. It gave her something to lean on after losing the ability to control Mai and Ty Lee. In its own twisted way (mirroring Azula's twisted life), this self-centered faith was her inner peace.

Cue finale. Firebending, like everything else she once relied on, failed her. It left her completely broken (as opposed to just insane.)


Erm... I think it would be kind of hard to dodge lightning, what with it moving at or near the friggin' speed of light. 200,000,000 meters per second.

Yeah, but you see, the lightning was curving, so he had more time to dodge.:smallwink:

[Zevox]

Erm... I think it would be kind of hard to dodge lightning, what with it moving at or near the friggin' speed of light. 200,000,000 meters per second. How Zuko managed to run in front of that is beyond me, though.
By the same token you would expect it to be impossible to jump in its way when you were stationary when it was shot, yet Zuko managed that. They plainly took some liberties with physics in this regard.

Edit: didn't notice the white text. In any event, my point stands.

Zevox

[Violet Octopus]

Erm... I think it would be kind of hard to dodge lightning, what with it moving at or near the friggin' speed of light. 200,000,000 meters per second. How Zuko managed to run in front of that is beyond me, though.
Er, more like 10,000 metres per second, according to wikipedia. Lightning is a discharge of electricity that happens to ionise some air and give off light, it is not directly made of light.

[Jade_Tarem]

Lightning is a discharge of electricity that happens to ionise some air and give off light, it is not directly made of light.

Of course not. This is Avatar - Lightning is made out of FIRE! :smalltongue:

[John Cribati]

Er, more like 10,000 metres per second, according to wikipedia. Lightning is a discharge of electricity that happens to ionise some air and give off light, it is not directly made of light.

Welp. That's why I'm not a physics professor. Or any kind of professor.

[White_North]

You mean Wang Fire?

That, my friends, is the real reason why Season 3 is awesome.

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww13/Throndoror/My_Nick_Avatar_Fanart_Entry_by_Booter_Freak.png

So awesome.

[Jade_Tarem]

That, my friends, is the real reason why Season 3 is awesome.

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww13/Throndoror/My_Nick_Avatar_Fanart_Entry_by_Booter_Freak.png

So awesome.

After I finished laughing, my first thought was "why is Toph driving?"

[Violet Octopus]

Welp. That's why I'm not a physics professor. Or any kind of professor.
I shouldn't have snapped like that, it was rude, and it's not like it's physically plausible for Zuko to move to intercept something travelling at only 10,000 m/s.


After I finished laughing, my first thought was why is Toph driving?
Bonus daredevilry points?

[horngeek]

Can't... breathe... oh god, that's brilliant.

[Mystic Muse]

After I finished laughing, my first thought was "why is Toph driving?"

Mine was, why is the food eating Momo?

[White_North]

After I finished laughing, my first thought was "why is Toph driving?"

Mere blindness is no match for the pure radiance of Wang Fire's beard.

[John Cribati]

Mine was, why is the food eating Momo?

Trowaway Line from The Storm. Sokka had a dream about food eating people.

[Mystic Muse]

Trowaway Line from The Storm. Sokka had a dream about food eating people.

Okay then, next questions.

Who the heck is the dragon, when did Katarra get a mecha, and what is the line referencing because I know I've seen that line before somewhere.

[thegurullamen]

After I finished laughing, my first thought was "why is Toph driving?"

This seems like something Toph would do. The question should be, "Why did she hit that ramp?!"

[Moff Chumley]

What's that from?

[John Cribati]

Okay then, next questions.

Who the heck is the dragon, when did Katarra get a mecha, and what is the line referencing because I know I've seen that line before somewhere.

The dragon is Azula. Note the topknot, and Zuko's dream in The Earth King

Mecha-Katara was a joke the artist made about Viacom/whoever not releasing Katara or Toph action figures because they didn't think boys would buy them or some crap. (go on and binge through Booter-freak's gallery on deviantArt. I'll wait.)

I don't know which line you're referring to.

[horngeek]

Wang Fire's pose is from the Evil Dead series. I know that much.

The Dragon's from the Firebending Masters, methinks.

Katara with a mecha? Why not?

[John Cribati]

What's that from?

Here (http://booter-freak.deviantart.com/gallery/).

WARNING: Exposure to this gallery may cause constant laughter. proceed with caution.

[White_North]

What's that from?

I found it on Deviant Art, where its artist, Booter-Freak, has drawn many other awesome pictures.

Edit: Wang-Fire'd

[Moff Chumley]

Thank you good sirs. :smallbiggrin:

[John Cribati]

Mecha-Katara was a joke the artist made about Viacom/whoever not releasing Katara or Toph action figures because they didn't think boys would buy them or some crap. (go on and binge through Booter-freak's gallery on deviantArt. I'll wait.)
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs15/f/2007/085/3/3/Gagstrip_54_by_Booter_Freak.png

[Yulian]

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/063/4/c/PUNCH_A_FISH_IN_THE_FACE_by_Booter_Freak.png

Since I don't really intend to watch the film did...did this actually happen? Because man, that's like Insanity Wolf stuff right there.

- Yulian

[John Cribati]

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/063/4/c/PUNCH_A_FISH_IN_THE_FACE_by_Booter_Freak.png

Since I don't really intend to watch the film did...did this actually happen? Because man, that's like Insanity Wolf stuff right there.



It didn't. They edited a knife into Zhao's hand or something, I don't know.

[Lord Seth]

Okay, late response, but...
1) In a strict, technical sense, you might be correct. On the other hand, I'm going to revise my argument to "it makes for terrible storytelling." Think about it. The big, climactic confrontation with Ozai is completed. THEN we have the big, climactic battle to retake Ba Sing Se. THEN we have the somewhat meh battle to defeat Azula - because as awesome as she was (or was not) by that point, it would have been Azula versus the entire rest of the cast, and even on the best day of her life she's not good enough to take Zuko + Aang + Iroh + Katara + Sokka + Mai + Ty Lee + the entire Kyoshi Warrior tribe + Appa + Toph + All those dudes from the Black Sun invasion + Bumi + the rest of the OoTWL + whoever else decided to show up and throw down. Heck, any two or three of those would be a fight that she couldn't possibly win. You would end up with a LOTR situation where the finale would have dragged way the heck out and lost impact.I understand your point, and I do agree that it splitting up makes for good dramatic tension. The problem I have is that there was no valid reason for the split-up other than that. A split-up should have a good reason for it. Let's compare Return of the Jedi with The Phantom Menace...

In Return of the Jedi, the split-up at the end makes perfect sense. They split into two groups because one group has to take down the shield generator while the other takes down the Death Star after the shield generator is gone. Luke went off and did his own thing because he felt he had to confront Vader and (perhaps somewhat reasonably) didn't think it would make a difference whether he was there on the moon or not. And it's not like he'd probably have much of a chance to do so later.

In The Phantom Menace...well...let's let Mr. Plinkett explain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0) (specifically, at 1:25 in or so). In Return of the Jedi, the split-up made sense. In The Phantom Menace, it's just an excuse to split them up. And that's the same problem in Avatar. Having your big action scenes involve the main characters splitting up is often cool, but the split up needs to make some sense.

And my bigger problem is that the way they're split up doesn't make sense. Iroh and/or Jeong Jeong could've taken out those blimps easily. Firebenders can fly around to a certain extent with their flames, so why don't they just fly up to the blimps, open fire on them, and get rid of them? Far more efficient and less risky than the plan they did go with. And why was Toph put with Sokka and Suki? She's at her absolute weakest in the air.

It doesn't help that the Ba Sing Se battle feels completely irrelevant to the rest of the finale.


2) Nonetheless, the eldest son has a lot more legitimacy to such a claim than Iroh did - Zuko's banishment was kind of a new thing, while 'Iroh isn't going to be the fire lord' has had plenty of time to sink into the minds of the population. Also remember that Iroh's reasoning is for why he shouldn't fight Ozai - no Azula, which was who Zuko was going to fight.The problem is that Iroh's logic was that a sibling attacking a sibling to gain power would be seen as bad by the Fire Nation and they wouldn't accept it. Then Zuko goes off to do the exact same thing.

This actually ties back into another problem I had with the finale, which was that Zuko's ascension doesn't make sense. It's been pretty well established that Ozai was a popular leader, so how does Zuko suddenly become Fire Lord? It doesn't make sense for them to embrace a traitor who defeated (or at least was allied with someone who defeated) their popular leader AND was allied with people who took Ba Sing Se away from the Fire Nation AND stopped the attack that could win the war. And why would Zuko even be a good leader? What experience does he have that would qualify him for trying to lead the country, especially when the conditions seem so difficult? Not really any that I can think of. Iroh should've gotten that job.

What they should've done was uncover evidence that Ozai was behind his father's death (this is hinted at in "Zuko Alone") and also made up that whole thing about his father's last wish being that he take the throne rather than Iroh. If they had that evidence, it would make sense that Ozai's popularity would wane AND it would give credence to Iroh being the real Fire Lord and he could take the throne. That would have been a far better conclusion than "oh, and Zuko somehow becomes the Fire Lord without any protests despite there being no real reason for it and multiple reasons against."


OR: Iroh vs. Ozai for a final fight, while badass, would completely sideline Aang, the hero of the show.But this is again another case where I think the plot should be logical. I'm fine with some level of dramatic convenience, but the characters just plain act like idiots for the plot to work. I can handle an idiot plot in a comedy (The Comedy of Errors is one big idiot plot and I loved that play), but not in a more dramatic series.


OR: Iroh, being a human being and not a logic-enslaved borg construct, felt that he owed it to the people of Ba Sing Se to liberate them as soon as possible. The term 'unfinished business' comes to mind. Besides, there was a prophecy involved and everything. Maybe Iroh was just genre savvy enough to know that he wasn't supposed to be the one to take out Ozai?Wait, what prophecy? I don't remember a prophecy. When was the prophecy mentioned again? I remember there being some talk about destiny and such, but that was in a more general sense, not any kind of prophecy.

Though, I think even from a narrative standpoint (that is, in terms of what would "make a good story" even if it didn't make sense) the Ba Sing Se battle was a mistake. The whole thing is completely irrelevant to the rest of the finale as I mentioned. And I'm still bugged that after all that build-up to Iroh doing something awesome his entire plot is irrelevant and he does pretty much all of if off screen.


4) I'm just going to ask it straight out: How would you have handled Azula toward the end of the show. I actually like your proposed solution to the duel in the post above, but according to you, Azula should have been too damn savvy to get in that situation in the first place.Well, depends, are we talking about just the finale or the third season in general? I would've preferred to have a greater focus on Azula in the second part of season three (and to move Day of Black Sun earlier to allow for such focus) to show her gradually becoming more aggressive and unhinged PRIOR to the finale. Build things up more.

What we should've done was show some really good parallels between Azula and Zuko, with Azula becoming far more solitary and wanting to handle things herself, and Zuko becoming less solitary and able to rely on others more. Azula's "becoming more solitary and only self-reliant" was sort of done in the finale, but as I said it was rather rushed and I feel it should have been more of a "I don't NEED allies" than "I can't trust anyone".

However, I don't think this distinction of being stronger WITH others was actually shown in the finale. Remember that Zuko seemed to have a shot at winning, but then lost because he saved Katara. In other words, him having allies ends up being a weakness, not a strength.

Now, we've discussed the issue of how it seems implausible that Zuko was able to jump in front of Katara before lightning strikes her considering lightning's speed, but fine, he's able to do it. What I think should've happened is that he uses his lightning redirect attack but due to him having to do it this way so suddenly he isn't able to use it on Azula (it just goes off in some random direction) and reveals his trump card prematurely. But because Azula "cheated" by attacking Katara she ends up entering the fight, and we can honestly have a pretty similar end to the fight, but what I would've liked was if Zuko and Katara attacking together were able to force Azula onto that water grate thingy and then Katara subdues her via that whole ice thing. I think that would've worked out far better.

[John Cribati]

Wait, what prophecy? I don't remember a prophecy. When was the prophecy mentioned again? I remember there being some talk about destiny and such, but that was in a more general sense, not any kind of prophecy.

Iroh said he had a dream that he would one day break through the walls of Ba Sing Se.

[Jade_Tarem]

Interesting...


Okay, late response, but...I understand your point, and I do agree that it splitting up makes for good dramatic tension. The problem I have is that there was no valid reason for the split-up other than that. A split-up should have a good reason for it. Let's compare Return of the Jedi with The Phantom Menace...

In Return of the Jedi, the split-up at the end makes perfect sense. They split into two groups because one group has to take down the shield generator while the other takes down the Death Star after the shield generator is gone. Luke went off and did his own thing because he felt he had to confront Vader and (perhaps somewhat reasonably) didn't think it would make a difference whether he was there on the moon or not. And it's not like he'd probably have much of a chance to do so later.

In The Phantom Menace...well...let's let Mr. Plinkett explain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0) (specifically, at 1:25 in or so). In Return of the Jedi, the split-up made sense. In The Phantom Menace, it's just an excuse to split them up. And that's the same problem in Avatar. Having your big action scenes involve the main characters splitting up is often cool, but the split up needs to make some sense.

And my bigger problem is that the way they're split up doesn't make sense. Iroh and/or Jeong Jeong could've taken out those blimps easily. Firebenders can fly around to a certain extent with their flames, so why don't they just fly up to the blimps, open fire on them, and get rid of them? Far more efficient and less risky than the plan they did go with. And why was Toph put with Sokka and Suki? She's at her absolute weakest in the air.

It doesn't help that the Ba Sing Se battle feels completely irrelevant to the rest of the finale.

I'll agree with this conditionally. Azula could have waited, or they could have given a better reason why she had to be assaulted at that moment.

However, you're missing a key point about why Ba Sing Se was a priority. See, Ba Sing Se wasn't a Fire Nation city - it was an occupied city, and if we're being logical and realistic all of a sudden, then we have to acknowledge that there are a lot of rather nasty things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre) that can be done to an occupied city by an army with nothing to lose. There's no indication that such a thing was happening before, but hearing that Ozai had been defeated may have started something ugly in the streets of Ba Sing Se. So yeah, Iroh did have to take it then and there.

Also, as I recall, they took Toph because she was the world's greatest metalbender, and the team thought that might be useful. I dunno, actually. I think it was mostly an excuse to show off her armor trick.


This actually ties back into another problem I had with the finale, which was that Zuko's ascension doesn't make sense. It's been pretty well established that Ozai was a popular leader, so how does Zuko suddenly become Fire Lord? It doesn't make sense for them to embrace a traitor who defeated (or at least was allied with someone who defeated) their popular leader AND was allied with people who took Ba Sing Se away from the Fire Nation AND stopped the attack that could win the war. And why would Zuko even be a good leader? What experience does he have that would qualify him for trying to lead the country, especially when the conditions seem so difficult? Not really any that I can think of. Iroh should've gotten that job.

What they should've done was uncover evidence that Ozai was behind his father's death (this is hinted at in "Zuko Alone") and also made up that whole thing about his father's last wish being that he take the throne rather than Iroh. If they had that evidence, it would make sense that Ozai's popularity would wane AND it would give credence to Iroh being the real Fire Lord and he could take the throne. That would have been a far better conclusion than "oh, and Zuko somehow becomes the Fire Lord without any protests despite there being no real reason for it and multiple reasons against."

Iroh didn't want that job. It would have been pretty badass, but Iroh becoming Fire Lord would also have been out of character. Also, Zuko spent the first half of Season three being exalted by the Fire Nation government and Azula. "Slayer of the Avatar" and all that, while Iroh was, IIRC, even more disgraced than usual.

As for Zuko - well, he spent his youth theoretically learing governing from his father. However, that's irrelevant because this part of the story actually follows Real Life - Zuko becoming Fire Lord doesn't make sense to you because you're thinking about it a bit too logically. Royal succession from the past isn't grounded in things like logic and reason - and qualified candidates aren't always the ones that assume the throne.

When the ruler is deposed/killed/whatever, the People (assuming that they still want a monarchy) don't all look at each other and go "Oh, I know! Let's ask around to find the most qualified guy for the job and put him on the throne!" What they generally did instead was go "Oh snap! Who's the next closest (probably male) relative?" And then they put that guy on the throne, even if they hate him, because that's how it's always worked and if you screw with the system now the barbarian hordes will come and enslave you. Again, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to us in this day and age, but that's the way it works.


But this is again another case where I think the plot should be logical. I'm fine with some level of dramatic convenience, but the characters just plain act like idiots for the plot to work. I can handle an idiot plot in a comedy (The Comedy of Errors is one big idiot plot and I loved that play), but not in a more dramatic series.

Iroh wasn't any more sure that he could take out Ozai than Aang. And as mentioned above, he had somewhere else to be.


Wait, what prophecy? I don't remember a prophecy. When was the prophecy mentioned again? I remember there being some talk about destiny and such, but that was in a more general sense, not any kind of prophecy.

Iroh's dream about Ba Sing Se. Herp nailed it.


Well, depends, are we talking about just the finale or the third season in general? I would've preferred to have a greater focus on Azula in the second part of season three (and to move Day of Black Sun earlier to allow for such focus) to show her gradually becoming more aggressive and unhinged PRIOR to the finale. Build things up more.

I dunno. You start giving your villain too much screen time and people will complain about Azula being the main character.


What we should've done was show some really good parallels between Azula and Zuko, with Azula becoming far more solitary and wanting to handle things herself, and Zuko becoming less solitary and able to rely on others more. Azula's "becoming more solitary and only self-reliant" was sort of done in the finale, but as I said it was rather rushed and I feel it should have been more of a "I don't NEED allies" than "I can't trust anyone".

However, I don't think this distinction of being stronger WITH others was actually shown in the finale. Remember that Zuko seemed to have a shot at winning, but then lost because he saved Katara. In other words, him having allies ends up being a weakness, not a strength.

I... actually agree completely with this.


Now, we've discussed the issue of how it seems implausible that Zuko was able to jump in front of Katara before lightning strikes her considering lightning's speed, but fine, he's able to do it. What I think should've happened is that he uses his lightning redirect attack but due to him having to do it this way so suddenly he isn't able to use it on Azula (it just goes off in some random direction) and reveals his trump card prematurely. But because Azula "cheated" by attacking Katara she ends up entering the fight, and we can honestly have a pretty similar end to the fight, but what I would've liked was if Zuko and Katara attacking together were able to force Azula onto that water grate thingy and then Katara subdues her via that whole ice thing. I think that would've worked out far better.

I'm not sure what to say about this because my memory of just how seriously they were taking the Agni Ki rules is a bit fuzzy.

[Reverent-One]

Re: the Fire Nation succession issue being discussed
The issue Iroh had with taking out Ozai himself would be the rest of the world would see it as nothing more than a power grab, one firebender simply replacing another. Meanwhile, if the Avatar is the one who beats down the Fire Lord, then there can be resolution to the conflict and a peaceful resolution to the war can be reached.

As for Zuko's ascension, that is likely a result of him having the Avatar's support (and Azula being freaking crazy probably didn't hurt).

[Cerlis]

Entire show was great, including third season. Only flaw was it was to short, but that is remedied by the sequel series.

The Last Airbender was ok. But then again i'm one of those people who appreciates movies for what they are. Godzilla had horrible graphics and some bad acting but its still lovable.

And i dub Avatar:the last airbender as "American Anime". Not sure who made it but its got all the good stuff of anime without the misinterpreted cultural jokes and stuff that makes alot of anime weird.

Anime in my mind = "Well animated, character development driven TV show"

[Kris Strife]

Yeah, but Godzilla was a so bad its good series, with many of its most popular movies being rather campy. :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

For Lord Seth:

What I think should've happened is that he uses his lightning redirect attack but due to him having to do it this way so suddenly he isn't able to use it on Azula (it just goes off in some random direction) and reveals his trump card prematurely.
That's pretty much what did happen (well, except that he had already revealed this ability by telling Azula about it outright). The lightning was shown shooting off into the sky after he intercepted the shot, meaning he was partially successful in redirecting it. But only partially, as he was still terribly wounded. Obviously the rush to get into the lightning's path disrupted his technique somewhat more than making it hard for him to aim the return shot.

Had he not done that, he'd be dead - there's no way he or anyone else would survive a direct, full-force hit from lightning enhanced by Sozin's Comet.
Zevox

[Lord Seth]

And here we go again...


However, you're missing a key point about why Ba Sing Se was a priority. See, Ba Sing Se wasn't a Fire Nation city - it was an occupied city, and if we're being logical and realistic all of a sudden, then we have to acknowledge that there are a lot of rather nasty things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre) that can be done to an occupied city by an army with nothing to lose. There's no indication that such a thing was happening before, but hearing that Ozai had been defeated may have started something ugly in the streets of Ba Sing Se. So yeah, Iroh did have to take it then and there.As I pointed out, they should have done it after taking care of the blimps. They could've done it right after. Information doesn't travel THAT fast.


Iroh didn't want that job. It would have been pretty badass, but Iroh becoming Fire Lord would also have been out of character....how?


As for Zuko - well, he spent his youth theoretically learing governing from his father. However, that's irrelevant because this part of the story actually follows Real Life - Zuko becoming Fire Lord doesn't make sense to you because you're thinking about it a bit too logically. Royal succession from the past isn't grounded in things like logic and reason - and qualified candidates aren't always the ones that assume the throne.That's not the point I'm bringing up. My question is why should we consider Zuko to be a good leader? The Fire Nation has just lost a war they've been in for a hundred years and the new leader is the one responsible. This would be a very delicate and tough job, and there's no real indication that Zuko is up for it.


Iroh wasn't any more sure that he could take out Ozai than Aang. And as mentioned above, he had somewhere else to be.I'm not talking about Iroh taking out Ozai, I'm talking about him taking out the blimps. Granted, Ozai was WITH the blimps, but they were expecting Aang to show up anyway if I remember correctly to fight him so the others could handle the blimps. The problem is just with how much ease a strong Firebender could take down the blimps, especially with the power-up. If Iroh absolutely could not be there, they could just grab Jeong Jeong to do it.


Iroh's dream about Ba Sing Se. Herp nailed it.That's not a prophecy.


I dunno. You start giving your villain too much screen time and people will complain about Azula being the main character.If they were to cut out the pointless filler early in the season, they'd have more episodes anyway and even without upping the percentage of episodes Azula was in or the frequency, she'd still be in more. I just think they should've spent a bit more time building up to her losing it before the finale.


The issue Iroh had with taking out Ozai himself would be the rest of the world would see it as nothing more than a power grab, one firebender simply replacing another. Meanwhile, if the Avatar is the one who beats down the Fire Lord, then there can be resolution to the conflict and a peaceful resolution to the war can be reached.Well, except for the fact that Iroh and Zuko and the rest were all ALLIED with the Avatar...but that was never my point. My point was that Iroh's logic applies directly to Zuko. So Iroh says it would be seen as a power grab if he were to attack Ozai, but Zuko doing the exact same thing to Azula is apparently fine.


As for Zuko's ascension, that is likely a result of him having the Avatar's support (and Azula being freaking crazy probably didn't hurt).Why the heck would him having Aang's support do anything? The Avatar is quite disliked by the Fire Nation. That's been quite well established.

[Xondoure]

It's not like Zuko is alone, he has his uncle to teach him, and the Avatar to support him.

[Jade_Tarem]

@Lord Seth
Why would it be out of character for Iroh to be Fire Lord? Because he said that he didn't want to be Fire Lord. Many times. And not in a way that suggested that he secretly did want to be Fire Lord.

The cartoon is under no obligation to tell us why Zuko would be a good leader. Maybe he's not (he certainly wasn't in Season 1). The most qualified candidate (Iroh) wouldn't take the job, hoping to retire peacefully in Ba Sing Se. Everyone else in the Royal family is nuts and imprisoned. Zuko is the only willing and qualified person. That's why he gets to be Fire Lord. If it helps, imagine that the crowds cheering at his coronation are only cheering because Aang is there.

Also, as several people have pointed out, he can always ask Iroh for advice. Or Mai, since we all know who the real power behind the throne is. :smalltongue:

Heck, maybe a rebellion springs up right after the show ends.

Do remember that Zuko helped end a hundred-year war, though. If the crowd was politically savvy enough to keep up with what side he was on at all times (which I highly doubt), then they were also probably good enough to pick up on the fact that he apparently saved their country from immense wartime reparation costs, war trials, and Aang-only-knows what else. That might contribute to his popularity.

Also, I really think you're obsessing a bit about Iroh and the blimps. The thing about Iroh bringing down the blimps is that it pretty much means that the rest of the Gaang are stuck twiddling their thumbs. You'd have to rewrite pretty much the whole season to engineer the situation in such a way that the split-up is different. At that point, the argument becomes "Season Three would be better if it was better." That's true, but also doesn't help us much.

Maybe we should start a project in Arts & Crafts - Avatar Season 3 Rewrite. :smallamused:

[Lord Seth]

Why would it be out of character for Iroh to be Fire Lord? Because he said that he didn't want to be Fire Lord. Many times. And not in a way that suggested that he secretly did want to be Fire Lord.I don't remember any times offhand he did, though it has been a while since I've seen the series. (I've been meaning to do a watchthrough but haven't gotten around to it...)


The cartoon is under no obligation to tell us why Zuko would be a good leader. Maybe he's not (he certainly wasn't in Season 1). The most qualified candidate (Iroh) wouldn't take the job, hoping to retire peacefully in Ba Sing Se. Everyone else in the Royal family is nuts and imprisoned. Zuko is the only willing and qualified person. That's why he gets to be Fire Lord. If it helps, imagine that the crowds cheering at his coronation are only cheering because Aang is there.That just makes it even more confusing due to the established dislike of the Avatar among the Fire Nation.


Heck, maybe a rebellion springs up right after the show ends.Actually that's been my long-standing theory. Likely Zuko will have to become a tyrant just like Ozai in order to keep the peace.

I can't help but think of how much better W.I.T.C.H. handled it at the end of the first season. (Spoilers for it!)Elyon was the rightful heir in the first place, giving her credence, and furthermore Phobos (the evil overlord) was shown repeatedly to be disliked by the population. Unlike Ozai, who was popular among most of the Fire Nation (most likely through nationalism), Phobos ruled through fear. So it further makes sense why they'd welcome a change, unlike in Avatar where it was a popular leader deposed. Furthermore, by the end a fair amount of Phobos's own forces turn against him, so he's even more disliked. In W.I.T.C.H., they overthrew a hated leader and installed the person who was the rightful leader in the first place on the throne. In Avatar, they overthrew a popular leader, cost the Fire Nation the war, and installed a traitor on the throne. W.I.T.C.H.'s season one ending makes way more sense. (as a note, in season two we see some people who were still loyal to Phobos try to make attempts to overthrow her, which I found realistic)

I will admit the whole thing about Kandrakar being restored to being all perfect and stuff after Phobos is defeated was a bit cheesy, but it does give us a reason why Elyon being leader despite lack of experience wouldn't be a problem. Zuko meanwhile is inheriting a nation that's been at war for so long he just ended the war without the Fire Nation gaining anything.

I wish W.I.T.C.H. would be released on DVD...:(


Do remember that Zuko helped end a hundred-year war, though.That's an argument against them liking him, as he ended the war...by stopping the Fire Nation from winning. It's a bit unclear as to whether the Fire Nation lost at that point (sure they suffered big setbacks but it seemed to largely reset things to the way they were at the start of the series) or whether he just became Fire Lord and ended it then. Regardless, the point is that not only did he stop the Fire Nation from ending the war via victory, he ended the war without them gaining anything.


If the crowd was politically savvy enough to keep up with what side he was on at all times (which I highly doubt), then they were also probably good enough to pick up on the fact that he apparently saved their country from immense wartime reparation costs, war trials, and Aang-only-knows what else.He also stopped the country from winning the war, in which case they wouldn't have had to worry about any of those things anyway.


Also, I really think you're obsessing a bit about Iroh and the blimps. The thing about Iroh bringing down the blimps is that it pretty much means that the rest of the Gaang are stuck twiddling their thumbs. You'd have to rewrite pretty much the whole season to engineer the situation in such a way that the split-up is different.You wouldn't have to rewrite the whole season; at most you'd have to rewrite the finale (and it's in severe need of rewritings). But there's a relatively simple way to fix it. Here's what it is: DON'T have them meet up with Iroh and the others. Problem instantly solved. Given that all Iroh and his group did in the finale was briefly show up and then were shelved, there was really no narrative need to bring them in. They were brought in, then quickly shuffled away to an irrelevant battle we barely see any of. They might as well have not shown up in the first place, or shown up after the thing with the blimps was over with.


Maybe we should start a project in Arts & Crafts - Avatar Season 3 Rewrite. :smallamused:Actually I'm currently writing up an explanation of how I would revise the finale if given the chance. Personally I think the best thing to do would've been to scrap the whole thing and start from scratch, but for the purposes of it I'll assume that I should be basing it on the actual finale template.Sorry if it's a wee bit rushed, but it's late and I really have to get to bed...

[Jade_Tarem]

Zuko stopped the fire nation from winning the war through genocide. Why does that keep getting dropped? I imagine that all Zuko would have to do is reveal what Ozai's plan really was, unless the entire population was hoping for a world-altering massacre.

I would also like to point out that Iroh as Fire Lord has all the same problems that Zuko does, with the exception of being older and wiser. The crowds ain't gonna love him any more than Zuko.

[Tengu_temp]

The worst part about the third season was the schedule. It was randomly spread over what, 5 months?

[Reverent-One]

Well, except for the fact that Iroh and Zuko and the rest were all ALLIED with the Avatar...but that was never my point. My point was that Iroh's logic applies directly to Zuko. So Iroh says it would be seen as a power grab if he were to attack Ozai, but Zuko doing the exact same thing to Azula is apparently fine.

Because Azula isn't really in power, just a (high ranking) subordiante. Yes, Ozai was making her Fire Lord, only right after he created another, higher position for himself. It wouldn't matter, for example, if Zuko beat Azula while Ozai was still around, as Ozai still wouldn't have made him Fire Lord.


Why the heck would him having Aang's support do anything? The Avatar is quite disliked by the Fire Nation. That's been quite well established.

It does depend on how exactly the war officially ends. But since the Avatar had just defeated their leader, stopped their genocidal offensive, assumingly revealed said genocidal desires, and is leading a coalition of other nations against the Fire Nation, the Fire Nation probably lost the war, at which point they had better listen to the Avatar, whether or not they like him.

If, on the other hand, the fire nation doesn't lose the war and Zuko just ends it when he takes power, then yes, the Aang's support probably didn't mean much, but I think the first situation is more likely.



The worst part about the third season was the schedule. It was randomly spread over what, 5 months?

This. When the DVDs come out before the episodes actually air for the first time, there's something terribly wrong with your broadcasting schedule.

[Lord Seth]

Zuko stopped the fire nation from winning the war through genocide. Why does that keep getting dropped? I imagine that all Zuko would have to do is reveal what Ozai's plan really was, unless the entire population was hoping for a world-altering massacre.Given Ozai's popularity and that from what we've seen the Fire Nation is in favor of the war, I actually don't think Ozai's plan would've been seen as so terrible. Over-the-top, yeah, but worth it if it finally ends the war after all those years in the Fire Nation's favor. Even if it was seen as bad, that wouldn't mean the war itself would be suddenly unpopular, just that particular aspect of it (for example, a bunch of people think the usage of the nuclear bombs at the end of World War II was wrong, but not that many people think that it was wrong for the United States to have been fighting in the war, they just shouldn't have fought it in that particular way--I'm not arguing one way or the other here, just pointing out the difference between "fighting that way is wrong!" and "fighting is wrong"). The way Zuko ended it, on the other hand, meant that every single Fire Nation soldier who died died for nothing. These things really wouldn't make him that popular.

If it was a case where Zuko and the others had managed to make a coalition to actually defeat the Fire Nation, that would be something else, but what we see is "stop the Fire Nation's offensive, deal some blows to them that are strong but not crippling, and then all of a sudden the war's over."

Remember the end of World War II? The reason the Allies were able to take control of Germany and Japan (not sure about Italy) so easily and do some valid rebuilding was because the countries had been so destroyed by the war that there wasn't any resistance. That's what Avatar should've done, or at least implied. Obviously due to it being a kid's show they can't go so far as to leave the Fire Nation in ruins prior to Zuko or Iroh taking control, but it would've been preferable to see that the Fire Nation had just plain lost, not just that they didn't win.

The ending of Avatar is more like the end of World War I, where it just kind of ends and left a bunch of the losing nations bitter, eventually leading up to World War II. Okay, I'm simplifying things a bit, but a lot of people on the losing end in World War II (at least in Germany) were actually under the impression (due to propaganda) that the war was going well for them until Germany surrendered, whereas in World War II it was far more obvious they were losing. And it wasn't just propaganda that the Fire Nation was doing well, they were doing well.

Maybe to make the Ba Sing Se battle more relevant, they could've, after liberating the city, gotten its army back together and used it during the confusion following the comet to take control of the Fire Nation. That would've been more plausible. Also...


I would also like to point out that Iroh as Fire Lord has all the same problems that Zuko does, with the exception of being older and wiser. The crowds ain't gonna love him any more than Zuko.Except Iroh is a far more knowledgeable leader and would be better equipped to deal with such things. And remember what I suggested earlier on (it being revealed that Ozai lied and committed patricide in order to illegitimately steal the throne away from Iroh) would definitely have upped the idea that Iroh should be leader. Now I still don't think even then that a peaceful transfer of power would've been that realistic, but it would've been realistic enough for Avatar, rather than it just kind of happening with no explanation.

[ThreadKiller]

Season three wasn't all that bad, but I agree they the creators wrote themselves into a corner when it came to the final battle. This could have possibly been remedied if there had been an air book. Perhaps the air book could have been in the first season so that the last season with the final battle against the fire nation will still be in the fire book. Of course, that's just me wanting the Avatar epicness to last another season. But, it is what it is. Just my two cents. Please don't attack me. :smalltongue:

[Prime32]

Season three wasn't all that bad, but I agree they the creators wrote themselves into a corner when it came to the final battle. This could have possibly been remedied if there had been an air book. Perhaps the air book could have been in the first season so that the last season with the final battle against the fire nation will still be in the fire book. Of course, that's just me wanting the Avatar epicness to last another season. But, it is what it is. Just my two cents. Please don't attack me. :smalltongue:There is an Air book coming out: Avatar: The Legend of Korra.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There is an Air book coming out: Avatar: The Legend of Korra.

Indeed. Besides, what point would there have been for an Air book in the beginning? Aang already KNEW airbending, and was quite good at it. He didn't need to relearn it or anything. I think the point of the Avatar is that they master the elements but only have to learn the other three because they're already proficient with one starting out. The cycle of air/water/earth/fire wouldn't carry much significance if the Avatar had to learn all four elements from scratch.

[John Cribati]

They could make an Air book as a prequel. Aang wasn't born a master Airbender.

[Zevox]

Indeed. Besides, what point would there have been for an Air book in the beginning? Aang already KNEW airbending, and was quite good at it. He didn't need to relearn it or anything. I think the point of the Avatar is that they master the elements but only have to learn the other three because they're already proficient with one starting out. The cycle of air/water/earth/fire wouldn't carry much significance if the Avatar had to learn all four elements from scratch.
Er, they do have to learn all four elements from scratch - it's just that since anyone with bending talent born into one of the four nations is raised to learn to use it, they're taught to use their native element from childhood, and have to learn to use the others only after it is revealed to them that they are the Avatar (normally at age 16, with Aang obviously being an exception). By which point even if they're not really a master at their native one they're far enough along that they'll become a master simply by continuing to practice over the course of their life.

Granted, it would still have pointless to make an "Air" book, but still.

Zevox

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, but there wouldn't be much to it. All we see in the show proper indicates Aang's pre-Avatar life was relatively unexciting, and he DID master airbending pretty darn quickly. If I'm right, most Avatars don't learn of their nature before they've mastered their first element. Until that dramatic reveal at the age of sixteen, they're just an ordinary bender of their particular element.

[CrimsonAngel]

Add Adventure Time, Regular Show, and Scooby Doo Mystery Inc to that list, you won't regret it.

Oh my god, I love the new Schooby Doo. "These look like they could be dangerous... Better open them so we don't waste time!" "This is so much more important than school."

[ThreadKiller]

There is an Air book coming out: Avatar: The Legend of Korra.

Well, I meant an Air book with the original Avatar gang. But I am looking forward to that mini-series.


They could make an Air book as a prequel. Aang wasn't born a master Airbender.

I agree that it could serve as a prequel as well. It would be nice to see Aang's shenanigans before the monks told him that he was the Avatar. Also, some episodes could be focused on all the political dynamics of the other nations at that time. As for the final battle, it could have been about how all the other air benders were wiped out (even though that topic might be a little mature for younger audiences), and end with Aang encapsulating himself in ice for 100 years. That way, it will still be cohesive with the rest of the series and the title of "Avatar: The Last Air bender" would still make sense. Once again, just my two cents. :smallwink:

[Math_Mage]

Total tangent, but I was looking for a character name and found that Katara approximates the Greek for 'waterfall'.

[horngeek]

Given Ozai's popularity and that from what we've seen the Fire Nation is in favor of the war, I actually don't think Ozai's plan would've been seen as so terrible. Over-the-top, yeah, but worth it if it finally ends the war after all those years in the Fire Nation's favor. Even if it was seen as bad, that wouldn't mean the war itself would be suddenly unpopular, just that particular aspect of it (for example, a bunch of people think the usage of the nuclear bombs at the end of World War II was wrong, but not that many people think that it was wrong for the United States to have been fighting in the war, they just shouldn't have fought it in that particular way--I'm not arguing one way or the other here, just pointing out the difference between "fighting that way is wrong!" and "fighting is wrong"). The way Zuko ended it, on the other hand, meant that every single Fire Nation soldier who died died for nothing. These things really wouldn't make him that popular.

If it was a case where Zuko and the others had managed to make a coalition to actually defeat the Fire Nation, that would be something else, but what we see is "stop the Fire Nation's offensive, deal some blows to them that are strong but not crippling, and then all of a sudden the war's over."

Remember the end of World War II? The reason the Allies were able to take control of Germany and Japan (not sure about Italy) so easily and do some valid rebuilding was because the countries had been so destroyed by the war that there wasn't any resistance. That's what Avatar should've done, or at least implied. Obviously due to it being a kid's show they can't go so far as to leave the Fire Nation in ruins prior to Zuko or Iroh taking control, but it would've been preferable to see that the Fire Nation had just plain lost, not just that they didn't win.

The ending of Avatar is more like the end of World War I, where it just kind of ends and left a bunch of the losing nations bitter, eventually leading up to World War II. Okay, I'm simplifying things a bit, but a lot of people on the losing end in World War II (at least in Germany) were actually under the impression (due to propaganda) that the war was going well for them until Germany surrendered, whereas in World War II it was far more obvious they were losing. And it wasn't just propaganda that the Fire Nation was doing well, they were doing well.

Maybe to make the Ba Sing Se battle more relevant, they could've, after liberating the city, gotten its army back together and used it during the confusion following the comet to take control of the Fire Nation. That would've been more plausible. Also...

Except Iroh is a far more knowledgeable leader and would be better equipped to deal with such things. And remember what I suggested earlier on (it being revealed that Ozai lied and committed patricide in order to illegitimately steal the throne away from Iroh) would definitely have upped the idea that Iroh should be leader. Now I still don't think even then that a peaceful transfer of power would've been that realistic, but it would've been realistic enough for Avatar, rather than it just kind of happening with no explanation.

I feel the need to point out that this would not have been possible.

1. Aang's a 12-year old kid.

2. Aang's supposed to be the good guy.

3. Aang's supposed to be the good guy on what's, ultimately, a kid's show.

...yeah, him threatening to/actually causing massive casualties wouldn't have been a good idea.

Also, who said the war was popular in the Fire Nation? Look at the Painted Lady- the majority of people in the Fire Nation weren't really treated any better than conquered territories were.

[Mystic Muse]

I feel the need to point out that this would not have been possible.

1. Aang's a 12-year old kid.

2. Aang's supposed to be the good guy.

3. Aang's supposed to be the good guy on what's, ultimately, a kid's show.

...yeah, him threatening to/actually causing massive casualties wouldn't have been a good idea.

Also, who said the war was popular in the Fire Nation? Look at the Painted Lady- the majority of people in the Fire Nation weren't really treated any better than conquered territories were.

Heck, ignoring the fact that Aang's a 12 year old kid and the good guy, it's not in character for him to cause relentless destruction.

I mention relentless destruction instead of the casualties because while the casualities is a good point, Aang doesn't intentionally kill, ever IIRC.

We don't have to be worried about plausibility since it's a show intended for kids. If it was intended for older audiences I can see the complaint, but it wasn't.

[Lillith]

Personally I'm really looking forward to the next Avatar series. It will hopefully be interesting to see the next to generations after Aang and co. Though I am kind of pouty that none of the old cast actually survived up to these series. Especially when in the Avatar world, people seem to be able to become very old so 90 should be that difficult.
Anyways the only thing that will probably bug me about the next series is it's length. 12 episodes is too short imo. Of course this could be balanced by making the episodes longer then 30 minutes, which I really hope they will. Then again I can understand that making another 3 season series that is just a fun to watch is difficult. The original Avatar series is a high standard to compete with. :smallwink:

[Rockphed]

Personally I'm really looking forward to the next Avatar series. It will hopefully be interesting to see the next to generations after Aang and co. Though I am kind of pouty that none of the old cast actually survived up to these series. Especially when in the Avatar world, people seem to be able to become very old so 90 should be that difficult.
Anyways the only thing that will probably bug me about the next series is it's length. 12 episodes is too short imo. Of course this could be balanced by making the episodes longer then 30 minutes, which I really hope they will. Then again I can understand that making another 3 season series that is just a fun to watch is difficult. The original Avatar series is a high standard to compete with. :smallwink:

I'm pretty sure that 12 episodes is the standard "Well, we aren't sure if the show will be any good, so we'll take the trial package" deal.

[Bryn]

I understand that the original Avatar series started as 12 episodes ending with The Blue Spirit, but was extended. I think there's some difference applying to the Legend of Korra which may prevent that happening this time around, but I'm not sure of the details.

[Zevox]

Though I am kind of pouty that none of the old cast actually survived up to these series.
:smallconfused: Where did you hear that? When it was announced one of the things I read about it had the creators if anything hinting that we might see some of the old cast (to be precise they were asked, said they couldn't confirm or deny it, but that they could say there was a definite link between the two series).


I'm pretty sure that 12 episodes is the standard "Well, we aren't sure if the show will be any good, so we'll take the trial package" deal.
Doesn't make much sense for that to be the case here though, given the immense popularity of the first show all but guarantees the success of this one.

Zevox

[Lord Seth]

I feel the need to point out that this would not have been possible.

1. Aang's a 12-year old kid.

2. Aang's supposed to be the good guy.

3. Aang's supposed to be the good guy on what's, ultimately, a kid's show.

...yeah, him threatening to/actually causing massive casualties wouldn't have been a good idea.What does this have to do with anything I said? If you're referring to my claim that Aang and the others should've actually won the war rather than just not losing it, I specified that obviously there would have to be some holding back due to it being a kid's show, but it's certainly still possible to portray.


Also, who said the war was popular in the Fire Nation?The beginning of The Deserter, The Ember Island Players, and The Headband, if I recall correctly.

[Violet Octopus]

Also, who said the war was popular in the Fire Nation? Look at the Painted Lady- the majority of people in the Fire Nation weren't really treated any better than conquered territories were.
This. The Fire Nation characters we see in episodes like The Ember Island Players are mostly wealthy middle-class or nobility - the people who have the most to gain from schmoozing with the Fire Lord. It's entirely plausible that the urban poor or peasants are not so loyal to the Fire Lord. Loss of livelihood from environmental destruction, probable heavy taxation, grief over loved ones lost fighting in the war. The generals were pretty keen to throw away unimportant soldiers' lives as distractions, there's only so long you can do that before the population loses morale and nationalistic fervour.

[Math_Mage]

This. The Fire Nation characters we see in episodes like The Ember Island Players are mostly wealthy middle-class or nobility - the people who have the most to gain from schmoozing with the Fire Lord. It's entirely plausible that the urban poor or peasants are not so loyal to the Fire Lord. Loss of livelihood from environmental destruction, probable heavy taxation, grief over loved ones lost fighting in the war. The generals were pretty keen to throw away unimportant soldiers' lives as distractions, there's only so long you can do that before the population loses morale and nationalistic fervour.

Who has more influence over the succession to the throne, the nobility or the peasants? Not necessarily a rhetorical question.

[Rockphed]

My biggest complaint about the series is that while there are at least 2 civilizations for each of water, earth and fire, there seems to only ever have been 1 for air. I was so hoping they would run into some backwoods, redneck airbenders, but alas, that was not so. :smallfrown:

[Xondoure]

My biggest complaint about the series is that while there are at least 2 civilizations for each of water, earth and fire, there seems to only ever have been 1 for air. I was so hoping they would run into some backwoods, redneck airbenders, but alas, that was not so. :smallfrown:

There was pretty clearly more than one major Air temple. Most of them were nomads though so I find it strange the fire nation found them all.

[horngeek]

It probably didn't catch them all at once, I'd say.

Alternatively, the 'Air Nomads' name was a throwback and they weren't actually nomads anymore.

[Zevox]

My biggest complaint about the series is that while there are at least 2 civilizations for each of water, earth and fire, there seems to only ever have been 1 for air. I was so hoping they would run into some backwoods, redneck airbenders, but alas, that was not so. :smallfrown:
Er, what? There were only multiple civilizations for water - the northern and southern water tribes, and the swampbenders. The Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation were single, unified nations.


There was pretty clearly more than one major Air temple. Most of them were nomads though so I find it strange the fire nation found them all.
Actually, we really don't know how "nomadic" they actually were. They're called the Air Nomads, and Aang does at one point say refer to himself as a nomad (when they meet the hippies), but all we see of their culture indicates they lived in the four Air Temples. We don't actually get any indication of them living genuinely nomadic lives. Which is one of the strangest things in the series, I must say.

Zevox

[horngeek]

I think he's talking about the Sun Warriors.

I got nothing for Earth, though. :smallconfused:

[Bryn]

I got nothing for Earth, though. :smallconfused:
The Kyoshi Warriors, maybe? They remained neutral for a long time during the war, so they're apparently not under the control of the Earth Kingdom. The kingdom itself is pretty diverse, too, but that probably wouldn't count.

[Prime32]

My biggest complaint about the series is that while there are at least 2 civilizations for each of water, earth and fire, there seems to only ever have been 1 for air. I was so hoping they would run into some backwoods, redneck airbenders, but alas, that was not so. :smallfrown:Earth doesn't really have "at least 2 civilisations". It's just that the Earth Kingdom is so big that there are noticable cultural differences from region to region.

You don't list your location, but if you live in the US it's like saying Texas and California are different civilisations.

[Teron]

Alternatively, the 'Air Nomads' name was a throwback and they weren't actually nomads anymore.
They were definitely nomads. Off the top of my head, Aang mentions having friends all over the world before the war, and the artbook confirms it.


Earth doesn't really have "at least 2 civilisations". It's just that the Earth Kingdom is so big that there are noticable cultural differences from region to region.

You don't list your location, but if you live in the US it's like saying Texas and California are different civilisations.
I think the differences are a bit greater than that. My impression is that the Earth Kingdom is basically a loosely administered empire, and some of its constituent peoples probably have little, if any, contact with each other. Different provinces within the Roman empire might be a more accurate comparison (or different parts of ancient/medieval China, probably, but I don't know much about that region's history).

[Starbuck_II]

There was pretty clearly more than one major Air temple. Most of them were nomads though so I find it strange the fire nation found them all.

The 1st one: Aangs
+
the second: the upside down one?

[Bryn]

The 1st one: Aangs
+
the second: the upside down one?
Southern Air Temple: Towers on top of a mountain, home of Aang. Contains a hall with statues of previous Avatars. Abandoned. Originally used by monks.
Nothern Air Temple: Also towers on top of a mountain. Currently used by the Mechanist and his people, although at least a few of them moved out when they attacked the Fire Nation. Originally used by monks.
Eastern Air Temple: More towers on top of a small cluster of mountain peaks. It seems like it was used for something like breeding Sky Bison, although it might be that all the temples were used for that. Anyway, Appa was born there. Originally used by nuns. Aang meets Guru Pathik there. It's the only temple not to have an episode named after it.
Western Air Temple: The upside-down one. Also abandoned. Don't know much about it's history. Damaged during the attack by Azula's airships.

Edit: another small piece of evidence that the Air Nomads definitely were nomadic: Aang met Appa in the Eastern temple, despite being born in the Southern one.

I was thinking that the Fire Nation waited at the temples to attack groups of Air Nomads when they returned, assuming there's no easy way to communicate between temples and flying groups. However that would be very difficult to do while Sozin's Comet was still around, and it's imaginable that a message (e.g. a person in a glider) could have got out to warn the groups. Perhaps some groups escaped, and perhaps we will meet some in the Legend of Korra.

According to the wiki, there was a trading card game featuring a surviving Air Nomad. I don't know much more about it though.

[Demons_eye]

I thought it was more genetics and that anyone could be born a bender of X. If an Air nomad married a person from the Earth Kingdom some where down the line one of them might have their grandparents genes and become an Air Bender only they don't have teachers and never learn to use it.

[Bryn]

In interviews, Mike and Bryan have said that bending is not inherited like that. We see this in the show with the identical twins in The Fortuneteller (I think), one of whom could bend earth and one could not. That could also be explained by only one of them being trained, though.

I don't think we know exactly what determines whether someone can bend. I think a Legend of Korra interview said that Aang and Katara's children could bend either air or water (but not both), although I might not be remembering that right.

[Zevox]

In interviews, Mike and Bryan have said that bending is not inherited like that. We see this in the show with the identical twins in The Fortuneteller (I think), one of whom could bend earth and one could not. That could also be explained by only one of them being trained, though.
One of the interviews linked in the Korra thread had them confirming that bending is partially genetic (determines which element you can bend) and partially spiritual, if memory serves.


I think a Legend of Korra interview said that Aang and Katara's children could bend either air or water (but not both), although I might not be remembering that right.
I'm quite certain they said that, but I'm pretty sure it's older than the Korra announcement - I think it was from an interview sometime after TLA's finale, once it was locked in that Aang and Katara were a couple. Never did see the interview myself, but I know I heard of it a while before the announcement of Korra.

Zevox

[Rockphed]

Er, what? There were only multiple civilizations for water - the northern and southern water tribes, and the swampbenders. The Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation were single, unified nations.

For water there are the Polar versions(southern and northern) and the swamp benders. For Fire you have the Fire Nation and the Sun Warriors. For earth you have the pretty standard earth kingdom people and the desert sand benders. So I was thinking that for air you would have the air nomad people like Aang(and his teacher) and somebody else. From a dramatic standpoint, I understand why there weren't any, but from a world-building standpoint, it bothered me that they didn't follow the pattern.

[Prime32]

For water there are the Polar versions(southern and northern) and the swamp benders. For Fire you have the Fire Nation and the Sun Warriors. For earth you have the pretty standard earth kingdom people and the desert sand benders. So I was thinking that for air you would have the air nomad people like Aang(and his teacher) and somebody else. From a dramatic standpoint, I understand why there weren't any, but from a world-building standpoint, it bothered me that they didn't follow the pattern.Didn't the men and women live separately?

[Bryn]

Didn't the men and women live separately?
Indeed they did, although I don't think it was that clear on the show. North and South had male Air Nomads, East and West had female.

Also, we never found out where Guru Pathik is from, but it could be associated with the airbenders in some way. I wonder if he or his people will turn up again in Legend of Korra... (not likely, he was a pretty minor character)

[Zevox]

For Fire you have the Fire Nation and the Sun Warriors.
Meh, I suppose that's so, though the Sun Warriors were believed long dead, and would probably be a part of the Fire Nation if they ever came out of hiding.


For earth you have the pretty standard earth kingdom people and the desert sand benders.
There's no indication at all that the people of that desert aren't a part of the Earth Kingdom. Indeed, Zhou mentions that he found that library in the Earth Kingdom at the end of season 1 if my memory hasn't failed me.

Zevox

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there some kind of teaser or trailer for the new series yet?