School uniforms, yay or nay?

[Katana_Geldar]

So, are you in favour of them or not?

I actually am, and I'm speaking as a person who has gone through quite a few of them (five I think). I think they're rather an equaliser as there's little discrimination between kids who's parents can afford to buy them trendy clothes all the time.

They're also a seperate set of clothes that means you don't muck up regular ones, as school uniforms get quite a pounding with water, sweat, paint and dirt.

And speaking as a teacher, it made me focus on the students more than what clothes they were wearing. On a free dress day, I found I could hardly tell the kids apart as the clothes distracted me.

[Gullara]

Naaaaaaaaaaaaay!

Definitely not. I don't where "trendy" clothes because I don't care. I do care about comfort though, and any uniform that doesn't allow me to wear a sweater is uncomfortable.

[Lord Loss]

My school has a horrible uniform (white and grey) which I absolutely detest , but I'm not opposed to uniforms themselves. Something more colorful would be nice. Although I'd probably just rather wear normal clothes.

[Katana_Geldar]

Naaaaaaaaaaaaay!
any uniform that doesn't allow me to wear a sweater is uncomfortable.

Most school uniforms include sweaters/jumpers.

[Juhn]

I never had any problems with mine throughout high school. Of course, I was eminently lazy in high school, and never having to worry about if a given set of clothes looked remotely decent together was nice.

[Elder Tsofu]

Never worn one, the school that tried to enforce it would probably be dragged to court for discrimination in the country I come from.

I'd probably not have any problems wearing one though, there are a lot of professions out there with a dress-code, so why not one for school?
But I think it would be even worse for the poor families as they now have to buy new clothes for school too instead of just using the clothes they have at home.

[CynicalAvocado]

my government teacher brought this up, 90 %percent of the class voted nay and he looks at us and says, "then why are you wearing them?" about that time we were looking around the class and sure enough, everyone had on jeans, similar shoes, and a letterman and senior shirt. i loved that class

[SilentNight]

I'm a nay as well. I'm not opposed to nice uniforms, I enjoy a blazer as much as the next guy, but I hate not having the option of not wearing it if you know what I mean. Suppose I'm having a lazy day and want to wear pajamas to school? Or the opposite and want to wear a new shirt or something. They're not inherently bad, but requiring them makes the cons outweigh the pros.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Honestly, having gone through both uniforms and regular clothing in schools, I can say they both have their merits.
Really, I wouldn't choose one over the others.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm the kind of guy who wears shorts and T-shirts until there's 10 inches of snow on the ground. At the six or so private schools with uniforms I attended, "winter" uniforms (long pants, long sleeves, sweater) usually started at the beginning of October and ended in May--and while I lived in several US states during those years, none was farther north than Virginia, so for most of the year I was far too hot for comfort. I'm opposed to uniforms on those grounds alone. Now, if the schools had invested in air conditioning instead of renovating the gym yet again, maybe, but....

Also, I worked in a store selling school uniforms for two summers when I was 14 and 15. From what I saw there--the clothes are often bad quality, the colors look chosen at random, the prices are far too high, the "customized" school uniforms are normal polo shirts with iron-on logos--uniforms are a waste from a quality and financial perspective.

Granted, as mentioned in the OP whenever my schools had free dress days everyone was so focused on the clothes that they tended to disrupt classes...but my friends and I generally subscribed to the "grab the top shirt in the drawer" school of fashion, so from my perspective at least that doesn't make up for the shortcomings of uniforms.

[WarKitty]

Well, here's my criterion for a good uniform:

(1) Gender neutral. I detest skirts as uniform material, they're just not good for active kids.

(2) Modifiable for all weathers.

(3) Inexpensive without being shoddy.

I tend to favor casual uniforms in that they do remove a lot of the fuss over clothing. Although I am biased by having to deal with "modesty codes" that were usually inconsistently applied and changed at random - I'd rather deal with a uniform than try to figure out if this new top is modest enough for whichever admin is on that day.

[The Glyphstone]

And speaking as a teacher, it made me focus on the students more than what clothes they were wearing. On a free dress day, I found I could hardly tell the kids apart as the clothes distracted me.

Have you also taught in a school with no uniform? Otherwise, this could easily be attributed to the unconscious bias of what's normal to you - if students dressed individually all the time, it's easily possible you wouldn't notice what they were wearing either unless it was unusual (a dress suit among T-shirts and shorts, for example).

Personally, I've never attended a school with a uniform, but I never saw anyone discriminated against based what clothing they wore. There were easier things to discriminate on.

[druid91]

my government teacher brought this up, 90 %percent of the class voted nay and he looks at us and says, "then why are you wearing them?" about that time we were looking around the class and sure enough, everyone had on jeans, similar shoes, and a letterman and senior shirt. i loved that class

If only I could have been in your class, when I was in high school many people referred to me as the homeless, werewolf, (Foreigner, of some sort, no-one could agree,) because of the way I dressed.:smallbiggrin:

[Gullara]

Most school uniforms include sweaters/jumpers.

I still don't know. I buy my clothes specifically because they're comfortable. I would hate to have to when a uniform only to find it felt like crap.

This has happened to me at a job. My uniform was too small for me the entire time I worked there. A better fitting one was promised to me, but I never got one.

So still nay.

[The Rose Dragon]

Well, in Turkey, uniform includes tartan skirts for girls. And tartan skirts are automatically sexy on girls of a certain age and older.

So, yay?

[WarKitty]

I still don't know. I buy my clothes specifically because they're comfortable. I would hate to have to when a uniform only to find it felt like crap.

This has happened to me at a job. My uniform was too small for me the entire time I worked there. A better fitting one was promised to me, but I never got one.

So still nay.

Good point. I tend to have the same problem from the opposite end - I wear a size 2 or so, most stuff is way too big for me. Not to mention for those of us with female figures, getting something that fits different body shapes...

That said, I still would take it over your standard inconsistent guess-if-its-appropriate dress code.

[The_Admiral]

I'm the kind of guy who wears shorts and T-shirts until there's 10 inches of snow on the ground. At the six or so private schools with uniforms I attended, "winter" uniforms (long pants, long sleeves, sweater) usually started at the beginning of October and ended in May--and while I lived in several US states during those years, none was farther north than Virginia, so for most of the year I was far too hot for comfort. I'm opposed to uniforms on those grounds alone. Now, if the schools had invested in air conditioning instead of renovating the gym yet again, maybe, but....

Also, I worked in a store selling school uniforms for two summers when I was 14 and 15. From what I saw there--the clothes are often bad quality, the colors look chosen at random, the prices are far too high, the "customized" school uniforms are normal polo shirts with iron-on logos--uniforms are a waste from a quality and financial perspective.

Granted, as mentioned in the OP whenever my schools had free dress days everyone was so focused on the clothes that they tended to disrupt classes...but my friends and I generally subscribed to the "grab the top shirt in the drawer" school of fashion, so from my perspective at least that doesn't make up for the shortcomings of uniforms.

ooo me too

[Katana_Geldar]

Have you also taught in a school with no uniform? Otherwise, this could easily be attributed to the unconscious bias of what's normal to you - if students dressed individually all the time, it's easily possible you wouldn't notice what they were wearing either unless it was unusual (a dress suit among T-shirts and shorts, for example).


No, as down here they're senior secondary and I am primary.

I have been to a no-uniform school though, but it was senior secondary and more informal (we called teachers by their first names).

[AtlanteanTroll]

(1) Gender neutral. I detest skirts as uniform material, they're just not good for active kids.

You detest the redeeming quality of uniforms? Tisk-tisk.

[Thajocoth]

I don't like them.

I remember one Halloween when we had to wear the school uniform in middle school... I just used it as part of my costume. Some cuts and fake blood on it... And the rest of the stuff on my face and everything... I think it annoyed everyone, the students 'cause they didn't get to wear their costumes and the teachers 'cause I had a loophole.

In High School we weren't to come in in costume either but I did anyway... No uniforms there though.

I never went anywhere that had separate groups or biases based on how people dressed... Or I was oblivious to it if I did... But I generally think uniforms are bad.

[Copacetic]

School uniforms, like communism, work great in theory but are depressingly fail-tastic in real life. An economic, not-complete-garbage quality uniform that catered to the whether would be perfect, but even among all three qualities findind one is a challenge. So nay, I guess. Though I have never been to a school that enforced them.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Never been to a school with uniforms. Can't imagine life without jeans, t-shirt, hoodie.

[Gullara]

Good point. I tend to have the same problem from the opposite end - I wear a size 2 or so, most stuff is way too big for me. Not to mention for those of us with female figures, getting something that fits different body shapes...

That said, I still would take it over your standard inconsistent guess-if-its-appropriate dress code.

Ya. I'm 6'2" and 155 lbs, so pants that fit me right are an issue. I always wear a belt because I can never find pants that have both a small enough waist and long enough legs.

[Innis Cabal]

School uniforms, like communism, work great in theory but are depressingly fail-tastic in real life. An economic, not-complete-garbage quality uniform that catered to the whether would be perfect, but even among all three qualities findind one is a challenge. So nay, I guess. Though I have never been to a school that enforced them.

ummmmmmmmmm.....what? Statistics please? I mean, considering you've never actually seen them in application I think it'd be a little forward and uneducated to claim such a thing without backing your statement up with some hard evidence, facts or at least a newspaper blurb.

I went to a boarding school that not only strictly enforced it but also got the female element out of sight and mind. I think education as a whole could do a great deal better with both uniforms (It cuts down on bullying, creates a sense of unity and at worst everyone bands together to focus on the hate of the uniform and not hate of one another) and segregating the sex's during puberty during school hours.

[THAC0]

I work in a school with a loose uniform policy and a school without one.

As a benefit, in the school with the uniform policy, I never see kids wearing stained, ripped, dirty sweats to school. Other than that, not much impact on me as the teacher.

Now, as I said, this is a loose uniform policy. It's not "This is the one thing you can wear!!!" There's much more choice involved... 4-5 different options, usually.

[Katana_Geldar]

One of the high schools I went to had a strict uniform policy

I.E. kneeling on the floor to make sure our hems touched the ground

[TheThan]

It depends on the level of Zettai Ryouiki (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki).

No that is not me watching you at gym class.

Now in all seriousness, when I was in school I was fiercely against it. I believe kids need to develop their own sense of individuality, uniforms of all types (barring those with a specific function) are designed to work against that. I am no longer in school, but i still believe this.

We live in a world where it’s too easy or convenient to follow trends or simply do what everyone else is doing. A person needs to be able to think and act of his/her own accord. Without our individuality we are just part of the crowd.

[WarKitty]

One of the high schools I went to had a strict uniform policy

I.E. kneeling on the floor to make sure our hems touched the ground

I'd take that over our finger-tip length rule on shorts. It sucked if you had long arms.

[Katana_Geldar]

Blah blah blah individuality

So, kids that wear school uniforms are not capable of thinking for themselves or expressing themselves as individuals? You are talking about A LOT of people around the world, myself included.

[TheThan]

So, kids that wear school uniforms are not capable of thinking for themselves or expressing themselves as individuals? You are talking about A LOT of people around the world, myself included.

Your totally missing the point. Uniforms in general are designed to help remove individuality from a person. Its not that a person can’t retain their individuality. It’s that uniforms are designed to actively work against it.

[Skeppio]

During school, I didn't like them. But in the later years of high school, I really began to see why they're a good idea. It's a bit less individualistic, but on the flip side, no-one is better dressed than another. And they let us sign each others shirts on our last day, so I don't see the big fuss. I'd hate to have had my favourite non-school shirt on that day. :smalleek:

I admit it has both pros AND cons, but there's very few things in the world that lack one or the other.

[Innis Cabal]

So, kids that wear school uniforms are not capable of thinking for themselves or expressing themselves as individuals? You are talking about A LOT of people around the world, myself included.

Firstly...this.




Now in all seriousness, when I was in school I was fiercely against it. I believe kids need to develop their own sense of individuality, uniforms of all types (barring those with a specific function) are designed to work against that. I am no longer in school, but i still believe this.

We live in a world where it’s too easy or convenient to follow trends or simply do what everyone else is doing. A person needs to be able to think and act of his/her own accord. Without our individuality we are just part of the crowd.

Secondly. Why is it bad to follow trends, or the pack itself. No one said the moment you throw on a matching outfit with the next four people. Individuality isn't tied to your clothing and if it is for said person they have -ALOT- more problems then their pack mentality.

Do you have an i-pod? Do you wear clothing at all? Do you watch TV, listen to music. A million other examples. Fact is, no one is as "individual" as they want to claim. Individuality is important sure, but being so individual isn't. They're shunned from society, or worse.


Your totally missing the point. Uniforms in general are designed to help remove individuality from a person. Its not that a person can’t retain their individuality. It’s that uniforms are designed to actively work against it.

Umm...try no. They're created to give a sense of unity and togetherness. And honestly, a little stripping of individuality isn't a bad thing. Even if that was the intent.

[Katana_Geldar]

Um no, they are not. Uniforms are to identify with a particular school both for the kids and the members of the public. They feel part of something bigger than themselves, and it's not a conformity thing.

And when the kids are in public, wearing their uniforms, how they behave reflects on the school. If they behave well, the school gets a good rep but if you see them behaving badly then it's very easy to have them face consequences they may not have had if you report it to their school. Particularly if it's a case of shoplifting or misbehaving on public transport.

[Andraste]

Naaaaaaaaay! There is no reason ever to have a school uniform. People should to be able to wear whatever they want.

[Katana_Geldar]

Then I'll just walk about in my bra and underpants, then. :smalltongue:

[WarKitty]

My *main* argument for school uniforms is that, well, clothing often reflects not what the kids want but what their parents want/can afford. I remember being teased unmercifully because my parents insisted on a high degree of coverage and looseness in my clothing. I know other friends who've had problems because they can't afford the fashionable stuff.

That and, like I said, uniforms remove favoritism from the picture. Many dress codes I've seen were rather unfairly applied, i.e. there were certain people who could wear anything they wanted and certain others who would get told to change if they wore anything even remotely borderline.

[Andraste]

Alright, not whatever they want. There should still be some dress code, but otherwise it should be the students' choice.

edit: Actually, I wouldn't care if there was no dress code at all, but obviously schools wouldn't allow that.

[Thajocoth]

When I had to wear a uniform, my parents couldn't afford it but had to buy it anyway.

That's a good reason to be against them imo...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

ummmmmmmmmm.....what? Statistics please? I mean, considering you've never actually seen them in application I think it'd be a little forward and uneducated to claim such a thing without backing your statement up with some hard evidence, facts or at least a newspaper blurb.

*raises hand*

As mentioned above, I worked in a school uniform store (Flynn & O'Hara Uniforms, for the curious) and I can vouch that the uniforms are generally bad quality and too expensive, or at least those of F&OH and their top one or two competitors. In terms of returns and exchanges, we got far more "This skirt has a bunch of tears after just a week!" returns than "These shorts are too long for little Bobby" returns. A single boy's short sleeve polo shirt cost about $22 at F&OH while you can get one of those for $5 at Walmart or Target when they cost both F&OH and Walmart/Target the same to make--they're the same shirts, for Pelor's sake, just with a little plastic logo ironed on! I couldn't say how weather-appropriate the uniforms were, since to me all of them were too hot, but most of the materials were either abnormally thick (short sleeve gym shirts and polos) or abnormally thin (sweaters and sweat suits).

Yes, this is all anecdotal experience, but it's experience from two different stores in different locations (one in a small- to mid-size city, one in the suburbs) and from what I heard from the sales associate at the second store it was the same for all of the locations and for Campus Outfitters (their main competitor at the time, which wasn't doing too well and closed about half their stores my second year there). I'm not going to say anything about the theories of conformity/community or parental control or anything like that, but uniforms are definitely a ripoff from a practical perspective, however much they might help or harm kids; put them in the same price, quality, and comfort range of normal clothes and then we can talk.

[Katana_Geldar]

You give some kids enough rope and they end up hanging themselves in terms of choice.

As for price, a good-quality school uniform lasts some kids for years if you buy them large enough to begin with to take them in and let them out as they grow.

[Mando Knight]

I have two criteria for school uniforms:
1.) Are they reasonably classy? Can't go wrong with class.
2.) Sailor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQ1rAIjzXc)Uniforms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5LFReFumVM).

[WarKitty]

The price issue is one I've always wondered about. Why can't schools just declare the walmart version to be their uniform?

[Andraste]

You give some kids enough rope and they end up hanging themselves in terms of choice.

So, what, you're saying dress codes protect them from themselves? What could they possibly wear that would be so bad?

[Katana_Geldar]

Kids need boundaries and they need to know what sorts of choices are acceptable.

And the different schools I went to had varying degrees of uniform policy. The one with the hemline check in homeroom was a private catholic girls school. The public schools I went to were a little more lenient in terms of what was acceptable, usually boys could get away with more as they wore shorts and a shirt and we wore dresses in the school print and design.

[Jack Squat]

I've been on both sides of this coin: 1st grade through 7th, I was at a school that commanded a uniform - polo/button up shirt and slacks, modest haircut - and from then on I've been able to wear whatever I wanted.

I'm generally in support of uniforms, as I think the deindividualization that comes with them is generally a good thing for kids to have ingrained in them. However, I have some complaints.

First and foremost, khakis aren't anywhere near as durable as jeans. Our playground was the parking lot. We played 'tag' football. I think I went through a pair or two of khakis a week my last year there. Legs got pretty scraped up too. I've ripped up my share of jeans too, but the generally take more abuse.

Secondly, for having khakis, we couldn't wear cargo pants. They're not unprofessional for situations outside of office life, and I'm not sure I could get by for a day with limiting myself to 3 rather small pockets (one being already taken up by my wallet) that tend to bulge out and look weird if I carry anything more than my phone in them. Also, khaki shorts have never looked right to me without the cargo pockets on the sides.

Finally, I dislike any situation where I'm required to wear a tie. I know I'll probably have to deal with it when I graduate and get a 'real job', but I still don't like them. Didn't have to wear them at my school, but I know there are ones that do require it.

If I were to be the one deciding, I'd choose black polos and non-baggy jeans as a uniform. If I had to stick with khakis, I'd push for canvas ones and allow cargos, though again with the provision that they be non-baggy (a better term may be 'well fitting'). None of that is particularly expensive, and the jeans can be substituted into normal daily wear, which should cut into the laundry pile generated by kids peeling off their school uniforms at the end of the day to get into something comfortable.

[Andraste]

If someone wears something inappropriate, they get in trouble or have to put something over it, then they know what's an "acceptable choice". I'm not saying no dress code, just no uniform.

A dress code tells students what not to wear, whereas a uniform tells them what to wear. There are many choices that are "acceptable" that aren't in a uniform.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The price issue is one I've always wondered about. Why can't schools just declare the walmart version to be their uniform?

'Cause then you don't get the kickbacks from the school-sponsored Flynn & O'Hara uniform sales. :smallamused:

[WarKitty]

If someone wears something inappropriate, they get in trouble or have to put something over it, then they know what's an "acceptable choice". I'm not saying no dress code, just no uniform.

A dress code tells students what not to wear, whereas a uniform tells them what to wear. There are many choices that are "acceptable" that aren't in a uniform.

Unfortunately I have never seen this work out in practice. Pretty much every time it turned into "if you're related to someone, you can wear anything at all even if it clearly contravenes the dress code; if you're one of those weird troublemaker* kids we'll bust you if your skirt is a millimeter too short."

*Note: you didn't have to actually do anything to be a troublemaker. Having the wrong parents, being disabled, etc. counted.

[Skeppio]

Yeah. If there's one change I could make to my old high school's uniform, it would be a more durable pair of pants, probably grey jeans (the pants were grey, so I guess we can keep the colour). I mean, I wear a pair of suit pants to work, but I'm not going out and mucking about during my lunch break, so a more durable pair is not necessary. I didn't go through many pairs of pants at school (i hung around the library during recess and lunch), but I think a more durable pair would have been a good idea.

[Andraste]

Unfortunately I have never seen this work out in practice. Pretty much every time it turned into "if you're related to someone, you can wear anything at all even if it clearly contravenes the dress code; if you're one of those weird troublemaker* kids we'll bust you if your skirt is a millimeter too short."

*Note: you didn't have to actually do anything to be a troublemaker. Having the wrong parents, being disabled, etc. counted.

At my school people wear whatever they want and it's never really a problem. I occasionally hear someone say that a teacher told them to put a jacket on or something, but that's pretty much it.

[zeratul]

I'm an anti uniform guy myself. I like being able to wear the clothes that I personally like and look good in, and uniform style stuff really doesn't cut it for me. I've always taken the lack of uniforms for granted though, I've always been able to go to school in my leather jackets and trench coats without getting any grief from security (although they do hate it when they have to use the metal detector on me). As for bullying based on clothes, people who wear normal plain clothes don't really get bullied here, the only people who really get commented on clothes wise are folks who wear stuff thats out of the ordinary like myself, but thats our choice.

[Deth Muncher]

It's "yea," not "yay." /pedant

Anyway, I think uniforms are silly. Glad I only had to wear one in marching band.

[Jack Squat]

As for bullying based on clothes, people who wear normal plain clothes don't really get bullied here, the only people who really get commented on clothes wise are folks who wear stuff thats out of the ordinary like myself, but thats our choice.

It doesn't get go away when you put uniforms into the mix. If kids want to pick on someone, they'll find a reason to do it - even if they have to look a little harder to find something.

[TheThan]

Many people can’t seem to decide who they are or what they want without the media/government/fashion industry/whathaveyou telling them who they are or what they want. Buy this, it’ll make you popular etc. They just follow along blindly and don’t ever stop to think about what they actually want or need.

I call these people sheep, because they just sort of dimly go along life. They have some sort of shepherd that directs them along. While a person with a stronger sense of self can easily be the shepherd , or even a wolf should they lean that direction.

When a child learns to think for his/her self and act accordingly, then suddenly he/she’s no longer a one of the people, he’s a person. To borrow a line from Agent K “ a person is smart, people are stupid, ignorant and panicky”.

That’s not to say uniforms are strictly speaking bad, many times they are very practical (military uniforms for instance), but I think for a growing child, a uniform is not always a good idea.




Firstly...this.



Secondly. Why is it bad to follow trends, or the pack itself. No one said the moment you throw on a matching outfit with the next four people. Individuality isn't tied to your clothing and if it is for said person they have -ALOT- more problems then their pack mentality.

Do you have an i-pod? Do you wear clothing at all? Do you watch TV, listen to music. A million other examples. Fact is, no one is as "individual" as they want to claim. Individuality is important sure, but being so individual isn't. They're shunned from society, or worse.



Umm...try no. They're created to give a sense of unity and togetherness. And honestly, a little stripping of individuality isn't a bad thing. Even if that was the intent.

Actually I don’t have an Ipod, and I don’t even own a TV. Do I listen to music, sometimes. Heck I have ONE shirt with a logo on it, and that’s for my brother’s podcast. I think someone mentioned school pride (fits in with unity and togetherness), I don’t quite buy that, I mean my high school had tons of school pride, and we didn’t have uniforms.
As for the school identification thing; I lived in a rural area when I was in high school. There’s one high school everyone goes to, and there’s no public transportation, so you either rode the school bus or drove. Our sports teams have to travel for away games. I never really considered being able to identify someone via his or her uniform. Though I imagine that is a double-edged sword, especially if rivalries get really tense.

Also I don’t think uniforms will turn people into mindless automatons, its just that I think having that extra bit of personal freedom can give someone an edge. anyway that got a bit long winded so I think I'm going to be done with this thread.

[thubby]

nay.
no school uniform is ever weather-appropriate all the time, no exception. even with a summer and winter one, there will always be days where it is too hot/cold, and in the spring/fall, frequently both.
in order to be affordable, they're overwhelmingly uncomfortable.

so now you've got a bunch of hot and itchy students, and this is good for them?

it does nothing to solve the discrimination problems as 1) anything from purses to headbands are grounds to do so anyway, and 2) kids don't need a status symbol to know who the poor kid is.

all "school pride" does is create inter-school rivalries which never end well.

[Temotei]

all "school pride" does is create inter-school rivalries which never end well.

I disagree. Around here, they almost always end well, with friendships between two rivals...

Anyway, I'm neutral. I love wearing dress clothing (except dress shoes), but I also love my shorts. I hate jeans, though. :smallmad:

HATE! :furious:

...Uniforms have benefits, but having a plain old dress code is fine by me.

[Gullara]

Anyway, I'm neutral. I love wearing dress clothing (except dress shoes), but I also love my shorts. I hate jeans, though. :smallmad:

HATE! :furious:

It's all about getting a good pair. A difficult endeavor to say the least. That's why I only have two pairs.

[Katana_Geldar]

Than, people can have personal freedom with or without uniforms. And sometimes this "edge" can lead to people trying to "prove themselves" in rather bad ways. If you already know that you're great an an individual, why bother to announce it or try and prove it.

And for the record, I live in a region where there are A LOT of different schools. Here's an example. Once I was annoyed on the bus by a bunch of kids pressing the button before every stop. They were wearing their school uniforms, so I rang up their school and told them the bus number and the fact that their antics made me and a bunch of other people late for work.


all "school pride" does is create inter-school rivalries which never end well.

Um, no it doesn't.

I have no idea where you get that sort of idea from.

[Gullara]

Than, people can have personal freedom with or without uniforms. And sometimes this "edge" can lead to people trying to "prove themselves" in rather bad ways. If you already know that you're great an an individual, why bother to announce it or try and prove it.


I think you don't give people enough credit. Not everybody is going to go over this "edge" and the choices of each person should not be taken away from them just because there are these people that do go over the "edge". They should be dealt with in a different manner which does not effect others who don't go over the "edge".

[Serpentine]

Ye, but. Lots of caveats (several of which my high school didn't meet):
1. It must look good.
1a. On everyone.
2. It must be comfortable.
2a. It must be cool in summer and warm in winter.
3. It must be affordable, and/or help and options must be available for those unable to afford it.
4. It must be flexible.
4a. It should be possible for anyone, regardless of their shape or size or whatever, to look decent in it.
4b. It should have several options.
5. It shouldn't be too big a deal if someone misses part of it on occasion - say, if something's in the wash.
6. It must be good quality.
7. Probably some other things I can't think of.
Finally, 8. It must stop at clothing. Other aspects of physical appearance - hair length, facial hair, piercings, etc. - should not be considered part of the uniform, and should not be dictated by the school.

My high school met most of these for most of my time there. It had a choice of quite heavy skirts (any length, though I think there's a minimum), dress, shorts or long pants; I think 2 or 3 different shirts; a jumper; and a jacket. It was basic blue. White shirt or light blue polo shirt, mid-blue jumper and jacket, dark blue tartan skirt, light blue tartan dress or dark blue pants or shorts. The pants and shorts could be any brand as long as they were dark blue, and I think you could get away with having a different tartan on the skirt or dress as long as it was similar and the right colour. You also had to wear a long-brim hat in the sun, any long-brim hat, as long as the brim was the right width.
Then, in the last few years, they changed it a bit. They brought in a uniform hat which had a brim that was smaller than their own regulations and you would either wear down, so it covered your face and almost looked like a lampshade, or wore up which rendered it useless for sun protection.
Even worse, they required us to wear a specific brand of pants - "MaxDax". They were awful. They were men's pants, so they fitted all sorts of wrong on girls, and they faded to a grey-blue in a couple of washes. I think they may've also been more expensive. Ugh, they were horrible. My mother hated them so much, she gave me an undated letter excusing me from wearing them to use any time I didn't feel like it.

So yeah. On the whole I'm pro-uniform, but only if they're done right.

Reasons: Mostly ease, and a bit of aesthetics. Teenagers have enough to worry about without having to stress over whether they're wearing the right clothes. And, well, it saves a lot of getting ready time in the mornings.

[WarKitty]

My only thing is I detest mandatory skirts as part of uniforms. It causes too much trouble for the gender-variant among us. Same thing with ties actually; I just don't like it when there's a mandatory "boys clothes" and "girls clothes".

[Katana_Geldar]

Sure does, I loved the fact my school dress could just be hung up to get away all the creases.

[Serpentine]

Yeah, that's part of what I meant by flexibility. And, actually, I'm not sure that my school would have tried very hard to stop any male who was really determined to wear the skirt or dress. I think other students probably would, quite crushingly (although it was possibly the least violent school I've heard of), but if the person genuinely wanted to and was reasonably intelligent I think he could convince the administration that forbidding him to wear a particular part of the school uniform was discrimination.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

Well, I'm currently in a high school with uniforms, and I have mixed opinions about them. Yes, they are 'equalizers' in a way, but not in the right way. See, I go to a private school, so their idea of equalizing are shirts that cost 35-40 bucks a pop, and that's the cheapest piece of clothing (excluding the socks - nobody actually buys them).

Also, equalizing doesn't work quite as simply as changing what people wear. The people who used to be mocked for their cheap clothing will now be mocked for their cheap cell phone/ipod/whatever other excuse snobby rich kids can come up with. I've heard this theory a million times: if we don't see the difference, then it'll disappear. Well, it doesn't really work like that. In fact, it turns out people are most discriminatory against ethnicities/cultures that they ARENT constantly in contact with. Go figure.


Still, I have to say I like the fact that when we go on school trips we look a little more professional than your average public school. I know, that's elitist, which is the opposite of what uniforms are supposed to condone, but still, they do look kinda cool.

[Zevox]

Speaking as someone who spent 1st through 8th grade in a school with a uniform but went to a high school and college without one, nay. I was quite pleased to leave that behind after reaching high school, and see no reason for it I would accept.

Zevox

[Gullara]

Reasons: Mostly ease, and a bit of aesthetics. Teenagers have enough to worry about without having to stress over whether they're wearing the right clothes. And, well, it saves a lot of getting ready time in the mornings.

But this is all opinion! None of which applies to me, for instance. A person's choices should not be taken away from them except in important matters, such as those laid out by the law. A person should be able to choose what they want to wear. I can understand having restrictions, that's only sensible, but taking away, for all intents and purposes, all choice is wrong.

[Katana_Geldar]

It's a case of "When in Rome..." You go to this school, you abide by it's policies whether it's uniform, respecting your fellow students or not having cigarettes in the toilets.

[WarKitty]

It's a case of "When in Rome..." You go to this school, you abide by it's policies whether it's uniform, respecting your fellow students or not having cigarettes in the toilets.

You got a choice as to what school to go to?

[Gullara]

It's a case of "When in Rome..." You go to this school, you abide by it's policies whether it's uniform, respecting your fellow students or not having cigarettes in the toilets.

That's just conformity. I'm all for uniforms in jobs and areas that require you to be identified as a group, but school is different. One should be able to make there own decisions not be made to do what you are told blindly.

[Thajocoth]

That's just conformity. I'm all for uniforms in jobs and areas that require you to be identified as a group, but school is different. One should be able to make there own decisions not be made to do what you are told blindly.

I'm glad I never have to worry about a uniform at work... In retail, sure, but if there are no customers to see you, I'm still against it.

I go to work in a gamer t-shirt and either jeans or shorts, usually. (Programmer)

[Katana_Geldar]

So, kids should make decisions on...

...whether they go to class or not...
...what should be learned in said class...
...whether they should have a teacher or not...
...whether they turn up at school or not...

Kids need to learn how to make decisions and what sorts of consequences to expect from making a wrong one. You talk about choices, well that's the nth degree of what you said.

And kids also need to know that in the real world conformity is expected in a lot of places. Is not school about preparing kids for the real world and giving them the tools to do so?

As for telling kids what to do, sometimes you have to. Particularly if they're prancing about on the roof and could break their necks. But hey, he's expressing himself as an individual!

[thubby]

Um, no it doesn't.

I have no idea where you get that sort of idea from.

the overwhelming number of school rivalries and surprising amount of property damage that is a result every year :smallconfused:



And kids also need to know that in the real world conformity is expected in a lot of places. Is not school about preparing kids for the real world and giving them the tools to do so?

if it is, they're failing miserably across the board.

[Fax Celestis]

So, are you in favour of them or not?
Yes, but they have given me weird fetishes for the rest of my life.

[Katana_Geldar]

School pride =/= school rivalry, and school rivalry =/= property damage. I've never experienced this in the six schools I have attended, and not even in college where we had a friendly rivalry with other dorms.

[Moff Chumley]

Can I just throw out that I disapprove of school uniforms because they don't include purple skinny jeans and leopard print v-necks? :smallwink:

[Katana_Geldar]

if it is, they're failing miserably across the board.


Well, that's a horse of a different colour.

[Milskidasith]

I go to a school with uniforms... that aren't enforced. I wear it because I'm lazy and my parents think the uniform is enforced, but really, plenty of kids go around in whatever. There's no discrimination, and even though the uniform is simple... it's just not what I'd like to wear all the time. I'd rather wear a T-Shirt and shorts than a collared shirt and khaki pants, and I don't really see the benefits of uniforms. People can always wear $100 sunglasses or really expensive shoes, if they really want to flaunt their clothes budget.

So basically, I put up with my school's uniform policy but I don't like it, but if it was actually a uniform that consisted of clothes I didn't like, such as having to wear more than one layer of shirts *ever* unless it was freezing outside, or requiring long pants, or certain shoes, or a tie... I'd be strongly against it.

EDIT: As for all the extremism... these are clothes worn in an environment that mostly consists of teenagers who probably don't care all that much about the way you are dressed. Having kids wear T-Shirts when hanging out with a bunch of kids will in no way lead to them dancing on the edge of the roof while firing lit rockets at other people as a form of expression, or prevent them from wearing the proper clothes to a job. Neither will uniforms cause all kids to become mindless peons or lose all ability to choose anything for themselves.

They are clothes, people. Stop with all the crazy examples. It's not that big of a deal, really.

[KnightDisciple]

See, i went through school up to 9th Grade without uniforms. Then we switched, althought "khakis or navy slacks with a light or dark blue polo" isn't exactly restriction central.

I had no problem with it, though the kids who were already rule-hating jock wannabes did.

These days, the school has added at least 2 more polo types, and doesn't even enforce separate chapel wear. And they have a "jeans day" during the weak for fundraising (I think it's like $1 for the day to wear them).

That's about the right setup, in my mind. I mean, a lot of jobs are "slacks and at least a polo" for dress code, so I don't think it's a huge burden for kids to dress similarly.

[WarKitty]

I sort of wonder about some of this stuff about kid's choice. I distinctly remember wearing clothes I hated all the damn time, because that's what my parents bought. It's not like I picked where I was going or anything either. At least with uniforms it's a rule that affects everyone, as opposed to the 1/4 of the kids that don't get to choose what they wear anyways being affected.

[Gullara]

So, kids should make decisions on...

...whether they go to class or not...
...what should be learned in said class...
...whether they should have a teacher or not...
...whether they turn up at school or not...

Kids need to learn how to make decisions and what sorts of consequences to expect from making a wrong one. You talk about choices, well that's the nth degree of what you said.

And kids also need to know that in the real world conformity is expected in a lot of places. Is not school about preparing kids for the real world and giving them the tools to do so?

As for telling kids what to do, sometimes you have to. Particularly if they're prancing about on the roof and could break their necks. But hey, he's expressing himself as an individual!

Of course there should be rules against dangerous, immoral, and inappropriate things, but we're talking about clothing here. I suppose you think that what our hobbies are and what music we listen to should be regulated as well? I agree, some things need to be regulated, but clothing isn't one of those things.

Sure conformity is expected in some instances, but why should that effect our choices until we are put in such a position? School is mandatory, specific jobs for instance are not, so there is still that choice.

[Katana_Geldar]

Clothing does need to be regulated to some extent for safety reasons. For instance, wearing hats outside in the sun, wearing closed shoes in science/home ec/woodwork etc.

As far as I know, a lot of public schools here you can guy the clothes at Wal-Mart like stores, particularly for boys. I remember schooltime for me would always coincide with a visit to Big W so we could get new netball skirts.

Kids need to know that this is the way things are, not all the time but a lot of the time. I'm not saying give them no choices, but they need boundaries. What I really hate about a lot of people younger and around the same age as me is their sense of entitlement and the fact they think the world should adjust to them.

[Andraste]

For instance, wearing hats outside in the sun,

Hats don't hurt anyone. (Misread)

I wouldn't consider not wearing a hat in the sun a safety issue. I haven't worn a hat in years and I'm fine.


wearing closed shoes in science/home ec/woodwork etc.

Sure, if it would be dangerous to not wear them they should, but in general no one's going to be hurt by your not wearing what you want.

[Mando Knight]

As far as I know, a lot of public schools here you can guy the clothes at Wal-Mart like stores, particularly for boys.

Guy (v.): to make like the Fonz. :smalltongue: Eeeeeey. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NxGO2lx-A0)

[Katana_Geldar]

Hats don't hurt anyone.


Tell that to the many kids I saw on the oval when I asked them "Where is your hat?"

[Andraste]

Tell that to the many kids I saw on the oval when I asked them "Where is your hat?"

Not sure what you mean. Also, I misread your original wording about the hats, and have edited my previous post.

[Gullara]

Clothing does need to be regulated to some extent for safety reasons. For instance, wearing hats outside in the sun, wearing closed shoes in science/home ec/woodwork etc.

As far as I know, a lot of public schools here you can guy the clothes at Wal-Mart like stores, particularly for boys. I remember schooltime for me would always coincide with a visit to Big W so we could get new netball skirts.

Kids need to know that this is the way things are, not all the time but a lot of the time. I'm not saying give them no choices, but they need boundaries. What I really hate about a lot of people younger and around the same age as me is their sense of entitlement and the fact they think the world should adjust to them.

School uniforms fall in to the "no choices" area.

Yes, some regulation is necessary, your "shoes in certain classes" example is a good one. And inappropriate clothing should be restricted as well. For example very revealing clothes.

All I'm saying is that a person's choices should not be taken away from them without good reason, and that a person should be able to make their own choices within reason.

[Katana_Geldar]

I wouldn't consider not wearing a hat in the sun a safety issue. I haven't worn a hat in years and I'm fine.


This is Australia we are talking about, you need a hat outside or you fry. Simple as that.

[Andraste]

Sorry, didn't see your location. Again, that's just a situation where a certain piece of clothing is necessary, but the rest should not be restricted without other reasons.

[Gullara]

This is Australia we are talking about, you need a hat outside or you fry. Simple as that.

Sounds like Saskatchewan in the summer. Yay 30+ temperature. Translated to Fahrenheit, very hot.

And you don't get the -25 or lower weather in the winter. Fahrenheit translation, very cold.

[Katana_Geldar]

But kids in uniforms does have certain advantages in terms of behaviour, something no one has commented on after my bus story.

[Mando Knight]

Sounds like Saskatchewan in the summer. Yay 30+ temperature. Translated to Fahrenheit, very hot.

Thirty in the summer? You wacky Canadians and your cold temperatures.

...Oh, wait. Centigrade. Right.

Psssh. It's only 304-ish Kelvin.

:smalltongue:

[Gullara]

^ It's like hot death believe me. The only comparison is the cold death of winter:smallbiggrin:


But kids in uniforms does have certain advantages in terms of behaviour, something no one has commented on after my bus story.

Those kind of kids will misbehave anyway, whether you punish them or not. I know not a good way of looking at it. Also since they aren't at school they can easily avoid such detection, so really it isn't as effective as you think.

[Katana_Geldar]

But with the uniform, they don't avoid detection.

QED.

[Temotei]

It's all about getting a good pair. A difficult endeavor to say the least. That's why I only have two pairs.

I have a few pairs, but I never wear them. I have one good pair that I don't mind so much, but I prefer shorts and my athletic pants.

[Gullara]

^ I'm the opposite. I reveal very little skin because I don't like any kind of cold. I where a sweater all year round. See above for temperatures in summer:smallbiggrin:


But with the uniform, they don't avoid detection.

QED.

They don't have to wear the uniform outside of school.

[Katana_Geldar]

They do on the way home and to school though, particularly on public transport as was the case with my story.

[Andraste]

Knowing what school they go to doesn't mean you know who they are.

[Serpentine]

I wouldn't consider not wearing a hat in the sun a safety issue. I haven't worn a hat in years and I'm fine.Sunburn and skin cancer. Dunno if it's as much of a worry in the rest of the world, but Australia is the skin cancer capital of the world.

RPG: I disagree with your vehemence. The uniform system I outlined has plenty of room for choice and individuality, while still having sufficient aesthetic and ease. I even think that just a particular colour that people should wear would be fine.
To use your own words, they're just clothes. What does it matter if they have to wear a particular set of clothes for 6 hours a day most days of the week except the not infrequent mufti days?

A third reason I just thought of: any event that requires an expedition out of the school, especially when there's many other people, especially when there's other school kids, I can't imagine not being a disaster without a uniform to help quickly identify everyone.

[thubby]

Kids need to know that this is the way things are, not all the time but a lot of the time. I'm not saying give them no choices, but they need boundaries. What I really hate about a lot of people younger and around the same age as me is their sense of entitlement and the fact they think the world should adjust to them.

enforcing rules for their own sake just creates resentment, even in adults.
in the real world, rules usually have some grounding in practical concerns. when you have kids following rules "because you say so" instead of treating them like thinking feeling people, you only show them how little you respect them. which is reinforced by the fact that you're already trying to remove some of their ability to be unique!

[Mando Knight]

^ It's like hot death believe me. The only comparison is the cold death of winter:smallbiggrin:

Unless you're talking about the mid-thirties (or constant heat from June through August), Saskatchewan is still cooler than the southern-ish Midwest (Southern IL, Missouri, etc.), and definitely cooler than in-land Texas or Nevada. Can be annoying, but not in itself lethal.
...Nowaityou'reCanadian :smalltongue:

The cold death I'll give you. Any weather cooler than roughly 10 C hits the "annoyingly cold" mark in my opinion.

[Katana_Geldar]

Knowing what school they go to doesn't mean you know who they are.

Schools can be rather good at tracking kids down, as I found out myself when I had to do the other end. They generally know who catches what bus and certainly know who lives where.


A third reason I just thought of: any event that requires an expedition out of the school, especially when there's many other people, especially when there's other school kids, I can't imagine not being a disaster without a uniform to help quickly identify everyone.

Think of long term school trips too, where you generally only where the school uniform on the first day. The only overnight trip I wore my school uniform to was when we went to Parliament House, and I think that is REQUIRED by the education office there to get a rebate for the trip...which is why so many NSW schools go there and they have HUGE hotels to cater for school groups.


enforcing rules for their own sake just creates resentment, even in adults.
in the real world, rules usually have some grounding in practical concerns. when you have kids following rules "because you say so" instead of treating them like thinking feeling people, you only show them how little you respect them. which is reinforced by the fact that you're already trying to remove some of their ability to be unique!

That's not bad rules, that's bad teachers/parents. And some kids aren't at the stage where they can understand the "Why?" of some rules. Which is why I liked the older kids better, as you can talk to them as individuals.

[Gullara]

RPG: I disagree with your vehemence. The uniform system I outlined has plenty of room for choice and individuality, while still having sufficient aesthetic and ease. I even think that just a particular colour that people should wear would be fine.
To use your own words, they're just clothes. What does it matter if they have to wear a particular set of clothes for 6 hours a day most days of the week except the not infrequent mufti days?


I've never had to wear a uniform for school myself, so I'm going off little information. Now if colour is the only limitation besides being appropriate, then I suppose I could deal with it. But if you have to wear a specific article of clothing every day whether you hate it or not, which is what some people seem to be describing, then I don't think my argument is invalid.

Sure it's just clothes, but it should be clothes you like and are comfortable in.

[Serpentine]

Sure it's just clothes, but it should be clothes you like and are comfortable in.Which was also covered in my Conditions for a Good School Uniform.

[Katana_Geldar]

Unless you are at a private school for toffs, school uniforms are not very uncomfortable. Yes, even wearing a tie.

That dress I wore as my school uniform at the girls school was great, so cool and kept the sun off even if we did look like the bananas in pajamas.

[Serpentine]

Yeah, the school pants were the only part of my uniform I really didn't like, and they weren't brought in until much later. I also never wore the dress, but I think that was just cuz it was a bit too short for my tastes. Still had 2 tops and 2 bottoms to choose from.

[thubby]

That's not bad rules, that's bad teachers/parents. And some kids aren't at the stage where they can understand the "Why?" of some rules. Which is why I liked the older kids better, as you can talk to them as individuals.

can the best teacher give a satisfactory answer when even professionals are arguing over if they're a good thing?

[Gullara]

Which was also covered in my Conditions for a Good School Uniform.


Unless you are at a private school for toffs, school uniforms are not very uncomfortable. Yes, even wearing a tie.

That dress I wore as my school uniform at the girls school was great, so cool and kept the sun off even if we did look like the bananas in pajamas.

Like I said, if the school uniform is reasonable that sure I could deal with it.

But are they always reasonable? Somehow I doubt that.

[Zevox]

Unless you are at a private school for toffs, school uniforms are not very uncomfortable. Yes, even wearing a tie.
Speaking as someone who did have to wear a tie to school for eight years, I cannot agree - ties are quite uncomfortable and annoying to have to wear.

Zevox

[THAC0]

How about this:

Uniforms are awesome because they give kids something to rebel against and complain about. And that is a critical need for a teenager! :smallbiggrin:

[Thajocoth]

How about this:

Uniforms are awesome because they give kids something to rebel against and complain about. And that is a critical need for a teenager! :smallbiggrin:

I never rebelled against anything and I turned out fine.

[Temotei]

I never rebelled against anything and I turned out fine.

Adolescence didn't get you even once?

[Gullara]

I never rebelled against anything and I turned out fine.

Me neither really. I skipped over that I guess *shrugs*

EDIT: Well nothing big. Maybe convince my parents to let me go out and do stuff (before I got a car), but I never did the whole party thing. Just hung out with friends.

[KnightDisciple]

How about this:

Uniforms are awesome because they give kids something to rebel against and complain about. And that is a critical need for a teenager! :smallbiggrin:Ugh. How about we don't give teenagers any incentives for acting like pretentious pseudo-adults with a sense of entitlement and more hormones than brains?

The whole "teenagers are totally rebellious" thing is overblown anyways. You don't "need" to rebel. You just need to start thinking more about the world and your beliefs.

Seriously, the hilarity of "school uniforms remove choice" is so delicious. What do you think dress codes at 90% of workplaces do?

Now stop and ask yourself "Is the exchange of rules about my clothing worth having employment/an education?".

I'd pretty much bet money on the answer being "yes".

[Temotei]

Me neither really. I skipped over that I guess *shrugs*

Hm. I rarely rebel, if ever. My rebellion is an act of lawfulness, actually. Chaotic lawfulness! I hate being rushed, so whenever someone wants me to go faster, I generally go slower so I do a better job.

Tech Ed. and art always killed me. :smallsigh:

[thubby]

How about this:

Uniforms are awesome because they give kids something to rebel against and complain about. And that is a critical need for a teenager! :smallbiggrin:

my kingdom for a roll-eye smiley.

you undermine the whole idea of them "getting over" the rebellious thing when they have something legitimate to rebel against.

[Gullara]

Ugh. How about we don't give teenagers any incentives for acting like pretentious pseudo-adults with a sense of entitlement and more hormones than brains?

The whole "teenagers are totally rebellious" thing is overblown anyways. You don't "need" to rebel. You just need to start thinking more about the world and your beliefs.

Seriously, the hilarity of "school uniforms remove choice" is so delicious. What do you think dress codes at 90% of workplaces do?

Now stop and ask yourself "Is the exchange of rules about my clothing worth having employment/an education?".

I'd pretty much bet money on the answer being "yes".

Your entitled to your opinion on the matter, I just like to have the choice.

I agree with what your saying about being rebellious etc etc. I'm 18 myself, and I never bothered with all that, Didn't seem necessary.

EDIT: Also watch the stereotypes. Some people could take offense. :smallannoyed::smallwink:

[KnightDisciple]

Your entitled to your opinion on the matter, I just like to have the choice.I've been employed in several locations. All of them have some manner of dress code. Of my full-time jobs, only 1 didn't set at least some rules for dress. Most companies I speak with have, at the least, a "well-kept jeans and polo/collared shirt" dress code.

Dress code is a fact of life. Getting used to at least some level of the idea is better early rather than later.

Seriously, it's for 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week. Assuming they're not on one holiday or another (few of which translate to the professional workplace). Far as I'm concerned, kids can bite the bullet and deal with it. Preps them for life.



EDIT: Also watch the stereotypes. Some people could take offense. :smallannoyed::smallwink:It's not stereotypes, it's been 95% of all the teenagers I've known. Very few are even semi-reasonable. Most think they're smarter than anyone else, but especially any "authority figure".

Seriously, I was so glad to leave high school and the world of teenagers. College was an absolute Blessing from On High.

[Thajocoth]

Adolescence didn't get you even once?

Actually, there is one rebellious thing I did that I can think of... But I was a toddler. It was before my mother learned that spanking was a form of child abuse. After the scream from the pain of the hit, I'd immediately follow up with "Didn't-hurt!" This was something she could not win. If she had continued long enough to make me bleed (she didn't), she still would not win. Eventually she tried just talking to me instead, which is exactly what worked. Not once growing up did I ever go against the rules... Any time it seemed like I did was a mere misunderstanding (whether mine or theirs). I was treated pretty much as an equal for most of my childhood, so there was nothing to rebel against, and I never felt the need to.

[Temotei]

It's not stereotypes, it's been 95% of all the teenagers I've known. Very few are even semi-reasonable. Most think they're smarter than anyone else, but especially any "authority figure".

Seriously, I was so glad to leave high school and the world of teenagers. College was an absolute Blessing from On High.

I rarely encounter anyone like that around here. I'm a senior in high school. The worst ones are junior high kids, but they're not so bad most of the time. There are exceptions, but I'm not buying that statistic.

[Gullara]

It's not stereotypes, it's been 95% of all the teenagers I've known. Very few are even semi-reasonable. Most think they're smarter than anyone else, but especially any "authority figure".

Seriously, I was so glad to leave high school and the world of teenagers. College was an absolute Blessing from On High.

It is a stereotype though. Not every teenager will fit that description. I sure hope I didn't at least.

[Thajocoth]

Dress code is a fact of life. Getting used to at least some level of the idea is better early rather than later.

Seriously, it's for 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week. Assuming they're not on one holiday or another (few of which translate to the professional workplace). Far as I'm concerned, kids can bite the bullet and deal with it. Preps them for life.I don't have to follow a dress code. I'm a video game artificial intelligence programmer. I wear a t-shirt to work. Jeans or shorts. Not every job's got dress codes...

EDIT: At the last place I worked, some of the people decided to do a joke on "Casual Fridays" by creating "Formal Fridays". They'd come in dressed in their most formal attire... One guy wore completely black tie... Every Friday... (I didn't participate.)

[Gullara]

I've been employed in several locations. All of them have some manner of dress code. Of my full-time jobs, only 1 didn't set at least some rules for dress. Most companies I speak with have, at the least, a "well-kept jeans and polo/collared shirt" dress code.

Dress code is a fact of life. Getting used to at least some level of the idea is better early rather than later.

Seriously, it's for 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week. Assuming they're not on one holiday or another (few of which translate to the professional workplace). Far as I'm concerned, kids can bite the bullet and deal with it. Preps them for life.


I don't like the whole "deal with it" attitude you have. Sure most people have to deal with it eventually, but that doesn't mean it has to be done in school.

I'm going into business, so I know there are going to be dress codes.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I have yet to hear a single good argument in favour of school uniforms.

As an American Public School kid, I wore "street clothes" to school. Despite what anybody tried to tell me, I refused to acknowledge any differance in clothes for school and normal clothes.
I never noticed anybody being teased or mocked or otherwise belittled based on their attire.

Heck, I had a problem with my second high school because I wasn't allowed to wear jackets. In Massachusetts. I don't care about your half hearted "conealing a gun" excuses. We have cops on-site and I'm becoming physically ill due to your shenanagins!

[Gullara]

I have yet to hear a single good argument in favour of school uniforms.

As an American Public School kid, I wore "street clothes" to school. Despite what anybody tried to tell me, I refused to acknowledge any differance in clothes for school and normal clothes.
I never noticed anybody being teased or mocked or otherwise belittled based on their attire.

Heck, I had a problem with my second high school because I wasn't allowed to wear jackets. I Massachusetts. I don't care about your half hearted "conealing a gun" excuses. We have cops on-site and I'm becoming physically ill due to your shenanagins!

I would hate that. I wear a sweater year round and hate to not wear it. In fact I'm wearing it now.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I would hate that. I wear a sweater year round and hate to not wear it. In fact I'm wearing it now.
The dress code technically read "no heavy, bulky winter coats worn inside the building."

Apparantly, a thin, light leather jacket worn over a fleece hoodie (or even by itself) was still bad news.

[Mando Knight]

I don't like the whole "deal with it" attitude you have. Sure most people have to deal with it eventually, but that doesn't mean it has to be done in school.

I'm going into business, so I know there are going to be dress codes.

I'm pro-dress code for schools. Without one, children (and teenagers, if you insist on being counted separately) will invariably revert to poor taste in clothing, often to show off how "popular" their ability to copy some random pop-culture-character's "fashion sense" is. Pure class is eternal: there's no replacing looking sharp with looking "popular," and the best way to integrate that into peoples' heads is through the mother of learning: repetition. Dress codes that strive towards a casual-classy style is practically perfect for most everyday situations. Other "styles" of "looking good" rarely have their place in school anyway, and generally appear jarring when compared to other contrasting styles.

You kids with your ripped jeans with the waists hanging around your knees... get offa mah lawn!

[KnightDisciple]

I rarely encounter anyone like that around here. I'm a senior in high school. The worst ones are junior high kids, but they're not so bad most of the time. There are exceptions, but I'm not buying that statistic.Perhaps "95%" was an exaggeration, but it seems like you guys know a far larger number of well-behaved teenagers. All but a couple of the ones in my (admittedly rather small) high school were royal jerks.

[Gullara]

I'm pro-dress code for schools. Without one, children (and teenagers, if you insist on being counted separately) will invariably revert to poor taste in clothing, often to show off how "popular" their ability to copy some random pop-culture-character's "fashion sense" is. Pure class is eternal: there's no replacing looking sharp with looking "popular," and the best way to integrate that into peoples' heads is through the mother of learning: repetition. Dress codes that strive towards a casual-classy style is practically perfect for most everyday situations. Other "styles" of "looking good" rarely have their place in school anyway, and generally appear jarring when compared to other contrasting styles.

You kids with your ripped jeans with the waists hanging around your knees... get offa mah lawn!

Maybe being a teenager who dresses in normal clothing (jeans, t shirt, sweater) I don't like the idea of being told what to where because I'm not wearing anything that would be considered "wrong" in the first place.

[KnightDisciple]

Maybe being a teenager who dresses in normal clothing (jeans, t shirt, sweater) I don't like the idea of being told what to where because I'm not wearing anything that would be considered "wrong" in the first place.Are you okay with being told when to go to school, what work to do, so on, so forth?

[Temotei]

Perhaps "95%" was an exaggeration, but it seems like you guys know a far larger number of well-behaved teenagers. All but a couple of the ones in my (admittedly rather small) high school were royal jerks.

It could be because I live in Minnesota. This place seems like Celestia compared to many other places...

[Gullara]

Are you okay with being told when to go to school, what work to do, so on, so forth?

That's a different matter entirely, and yes of course I am. I do like to wear my own choice of clothes though, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[KnightDisciple]

That's a different matter entirely, and yes of course I am. I do like to wear my own choice of clothes though, and I don't see anything wrong with that.I can understand that. But the fact is, we don't always get that choice. It's not like school uniforms must be worn 24/7 anyways. You're in school to learn, why not look a bit more professional while you're at it?

[Andraste]

Are you okay with being told when to go to school, what work to do, so on, so forth?

Those pertain directly learning, which is the point of school. The clothing one wears does not.


I can understand that. But the fact is, we don't always get that choice. It's not like school uniforms must be worn 24/7 anyways. You're in school to learn, why not look a bit more professional while you're at it?

Because what you're doing is learning. There isn't a reason to need to look professional. You ask "why not", but first you should answer "why". If there isn't a choice, there should be a reason for there not being a choice, not just "because"


I'm going to bed, so this will by my last input on the subject for tonight.

[Darklord Bright]

Major nay, here, but mostly because if parents can't afford good clothes for their kids, uniforms are actually incredibly expensive to keep buying every time someone grows too big for them.

[Zevox]

Now stop and ask yourself "Is the exchange of rules about my clothing worth having employment/an education?".

I'd pretty much bet money on the answer being "yes".
I'd rather ask "is there a rational reason for having these rules about clothing?"

And I'm not seeing one. When it comes to schools, outside of very basic bans of particular inappropriate clothing that most any institution would have, all else seems arbitrary and pointless to me.

Zevox

[Gullara]

Those pertain directly learning, which is the point of school. The clothing one wears does not.

Because what you're doing is learning. There isn't a reason to need to look professional. You ask "why not", but first you should answer "why".

Exactly. Why have uniforms in school? There is no real reason. It's important at a job because you want to look professional. School on the other hand is not a place you need to look professional. I'm not saying you should dress sloppy or inappropriately, just how you want to.

[KnightDisciple]

Okay, here's another spin.

If you dress professional, every day, there's at least a chance you'll think and act more professional.

As well, if there's a unified standard of dress, it removes major avenues for potential teasing, as well as keeping kids from pointlessly posturing via their dress.

And again, experiencing the need to dress up for school helps mentally prepare kids for the day when they dress up for work.

[Gullara]

Okay, here's another spin.

If you dress professional, every day, there's at least a chance you'll think and act more professional.

As well, if there's a unified standard of dress, it removes major avenues for potential teasing, as well as keeping kids from pointlessly posturing via their dress.

And again, experiencing the need to dress up for school helps mentally prepare kids for the day when they dress up for work.

No, not if you don't already.

It has been said before, kids are going to tease other kids no matter what, uniform or no.

You don't need to be mentally prepared. A job is the time when you do have to deal with it. If you don't, good luck finding a job. (doesn't apply to all jobs)

EDIT: *Yawns* sleep time, good night.

[Mystic Muse]

As well, if there's a unified standard of dress, it removes major avenues for potential teasing, as well as keeping kids from pointlessly posturing via their dress.


probably a bad analogy here since I'm up way later than I should be, but this seems like taking away a single bullet from somebody but still leaving them with a loaded gun.

If somebody wants to make fun of you, or make life hell for you, they're going to do it. They can also just say that you look horrible in the uniform.

I say a reasonable dress code, but as for uniforms? Nay, unless you're going to pay for them yourself and my (Nonexistent) kid feels comfortable in them

[Worira]

Very, very, nay.

[Thajocoth]

It's not clothes people make fun of others for, it's reactions. If they can get a rise outta the other kid, then that's who they're gonna pick on. There are always differences, so they'll use whatever differences they can find. It's up to teachers to be paying attention and punish for such behavior. Uniforms don't effect that.

[thubby]

I've been employed in several locations. All of them have some manner of dress code. Of my full-time jobs, only 1 didn't set at least some rules for dress. Most companies I speak with have, at the least, a "well-kept jeans and polo/collared shirt" dress code.

Dress code is a fact of life. Getting used to at least some level of the idea is better early rather than later.

and taking such jobs is a choice. school isn't.

[KnightDisciple]

I think part of the problem is when I think "uniform", I'm thinking "specific dress code" (slacks and a polo, possibly with specified colors). Others might be thinking "one particular clothes set, which includes items such as a tie, that has to be purchased at a specific outlet".

Edit:
and taking such jobs is a choice. school isn't.Depends. How much do you feel like having a job, vs being unemployed?

Also, last I checked, people had at least a few options regarding where they went to school.

[Zevox]

If you dress professional, every day, there's at least a chance you'll think and act more professional.
This is transparently illogical. Forcing people to dress a certain way is not going to cause them to act more in the manner commonly associated with that form of dress if they weren't already predisposed to such actions.


As well, if there's a unified standard of dress, it removes major avenues for potential teasing, as well as keeping kids from pointlessly posturing via their dress.
Yeah, I went to a school with a uniform for 8 years, and let me assure you from personal experience, dress codes don't do a damn thing to alleviate teasing or bullying behavior. Kids who engage in such behavior will find some reason to do it no matter what. That behavior isn't driven by reason, so eliminating one arbitrary excuse for targeting someone with it just causes them to pick another.


And again, experiencing the need to dress up for school helps mentally prepare kids for the day when they dress up for work.
There's no need for that - by the time they have to do that they'll be adults, and able to understand the purpose of workplace dress codes.

These seem to me just more examples of how poor the excuses given for uniforms really are.

Zevox

[Drascin]

Well, I have an eight year old sister, and therefore have got to see the whole thing about uniforms from another point of view - namely, that of my mother. Who adamantly refuses to take sis to any school that doesn't have an uniform policy. And in some ways I understand her points - she says it's simpler, it completely avoids the "overcompensating parents dress their kids like they'd want to dress themselves but don't have the guts to" issue (if I had to count every seven-year-old girl with a five centimeter leather miniskirt and makeup I've seen going around...) and the inevitable associated fashion cliques that come from some kids dressing like teenagers and some dressing like kids, it makes things much easier for her (they're easy to iron and she doesn't have to go around looking for clothes that will fit an eight-year old girl bigger than most ten-year olds), and etcetera. But then, we're oddly old-fashioned at home when it comes to some things :smalltongue:.

[Killer Angel]

and taking such jobs is a choice. school isn't.

...oh, yes, you can choose to not have a job at all. :smallamused:
You can choose a particulary school, the same as you can choose a job.

BTW, i'm TOTALLY in favour of school uniforms (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Blowupyourvideo.jpg). :smallcool:

[Serpentine]

Honestly, I'm not really buying the behaviour modification and preperation-for-life reasonings. I prefer school uniforms/dress codes simply because it's easier, more practical for several reasons, lower pressure, and for personal aesthetics. That's enough for me.

[Mystic Muse]

...oh, yes, you can choose to not have a job at all. :smallamused:
Yeah, you can.


You can choose a particulary school, the same as you can choose a job. Not really. your parents have final say in the matter no matter how much you complain and unlike having a job, you're required by law to attend school. At least it is around here.

[Dispozition]

Not really. your parents have final say in the matter no matter how much you complain and unlike having a job, you're required by law to attend school. At least it is around here.

Bnn bn. Incorrect. While some parents may not give you a say in the matter, I've found that most will. I know my parents gave me a choice into which high school I could go to. I also know that most of my friends had the same.

No comment on the rest of this thread because I find it all highly amusing and would like to keep it that way rather than angering myself.
Although I think I'll end up agreeing with pretty much everything Serp says. You so chill and down to earth Serp, how you be so cool?

[Thajocoth]

Honestly, I'm not really buying the behaviour modification and preperation-for-life reasonings. I prefer school uniforms/dress codes simply because it's easier, more practical for several reasons, lower pressure, and for personal aesthetics. That's enough for me.

I found them to be higher pressure, as I knew my parents couldn't afford buying them and had to anyway. That meant less money to spend on me, and I knew it. In 3rd grade, when I first had to wear a uniform...

[Mystic Muse]

Bnn bn. Incorrect. While some parents may not give you a say in the matter, I've found that most will. I know my parents gave me a choice into which high school I could go to. I also know that most of my friends had the same.

It still isn't your choice the way it's your choice which job you go to.

If I don't want to work at McDonalds I don't have to. I can apply to other places and avoid it like the plague if I feel inclined.

If I don't want to go to a specific school, I have to convince my parents to take me to a different one. I don't personally have any real choice in the matter.

[Serpentine]

Although I think I'll end up agreeing with pretty much everything Serp says. You so chill and down to earth Serp, how you be so cool?By not having any really strong opinions nor pet peeves involved in this argument :smallwink:
I found them to be higher pressure, as I knew my parents couldn't afford buying them and had to anyway. That meant less money to spend on me, and I knew it. In 3rd grade, when I first had to wear a uniform...Addressed in my caveats for a good uniform: affordable and/or with assistance for those who could not afford it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Australian schools and Centrelink both have measures in place specifically to assist with things like uniforms.
Moreover, a letter from a parent can get you out of pretty much anything...

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, you can.
Not really. your parents have final say in the matter no matter how much you complain and unlike having a job, you're required by law to attend school. At least it is around here.

That's true, I was merely debating the concept that you can choose your job, which is not exactly true.
When you're an adult, your chance to select a job is limited by your instruction and a lot of other factors. And very often, the dress code comes with the job.
You're going to work in a bank? choose the bank you want, they'll have a dress code.
Restaurant? pretty much the same.
A good portion of office jobs require a suit and tie.
And so on.
Your "free choices" in choosing a job, are almost like the influence you can have on your parents regarding the school. There are, but they're limited.

You can be against school uniform, but "you can choose your job", is not a valid counterargument, IMO.
There are very few people that prefere to not have a job, because the one they could have comes with a dress code.

[Worira]

OK, so, after a bit of discussion, I can put forth my opinion in a meaningful, coherent way.

I feel that there must be extraordinary reasons before it is acceptable to limit individual liberty, even in minor things. None of the arguments in favour of mandatory school uniforms come even close, for me.

[Thajocoth]

OK, so, after a bit of discussion, I can put forth my opinion in a meaningful, coherent way.

I feel that there must be extraordinary reasons before it is acceptable to limit individual liberty, even in minor things. None of the arguments in favour of mandatory school uniforms come even close, for me.

I'll agree very much with you.

[Serpentine]

OK, so, after a bit of discussion, I can put forth my opinion in a meaningful, coherent way.

I feel that there must be extraordinary reasons before it is acceptable to limit individual liberty, even in minor things. None of the arguments in favour of mandatory school uniforms come even close, for me.Ideologically and in most other circumstances, I agree with you. But in this case, I don't. School uniforms are only the barest "limit (to) individual liberty", and are useful - to parents, teachers, and to students (speaking as someone who was one once upon a time - was fine with it then, too). Conversely, I haven't seen many (any?) good arguments against school uniforms that don't boil down to "it's the principle of the matter!"
For the record, I'm very much against things like rules about jewellery, piercings and hair cuts and the like. I'm just talking about cheap, good-quality, attractive, flexible, distinct, comfortable clothing with plenty of room for choice and individuality.

[thubby]

...oh, yes, you can choose to not have a job at all. :smallamused:
You can choose a particulary school, the same as you can choose a job.

BTW, i'm TOTALLY in favour of school uniforms (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Blowupyourvideo.jpg). :smallcool:

there are plenty of jobs without dress codes, especially for a kid.

and no, no one chooses their school, their parents do.

[Dispozition]

By not having any really strong opinions nor pet peeves involved in this argument :smallwink:Addressed in my caveats for a good uniform: affordable and/or with assistance for those who could not afford it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Australian schools and Centrelink both have measures in place specifically to assist with things like uniforms.
Moreover, a letter from a parent can get you out of pretty much anything...

*hi-five*

I couldn't say though, went to a private school. Tie, shirt, blazer, and trousers for me :D
Jumper was hella comfy.


It still isn't your choice the way it's your choice which job you go to.

If I don't want to work at McDonalds I don't have to. I can apply to other places and avoid it like the plague if I feel inclined.

If I don't want to go to a specific school, I have to convince my parents to take me to a different one. I don't personally have any real choice in the matter.

That's your parents. My parents specifically said that if I didn't want to go the school I didn't have to. When I was being bullied in a primary school I told my parents I wanted to change schools, and after discussing it (not me persuading them, but an honest to goodness discussion) they were fine with that so we went looking for another one.

Far be it for me to call your parents bad, but I feel that if they don't allow you a fair chance to voice your opinion on matters that quite directly affect your future and life in general then they may not be parenting in the best possible way.

Of course, that's all just my opinion.

[Killer Angel]

and no, no one chooses their school, their parents do.

See my answer to Kyuubi:
When you're an adult, your chance to select a job is limited by your instruction and a lot of other factors. Your "free choices" regarding a job, are almost like the influence you can have on your parents regarding the school. There are, but they're limited.
With reasonable parents, you choose your school.
With few jobs at disposal, your choice is very strict.
Your real freedom of choice, is limited by the circumstances, no matter your age.


there are plenty of jobs without dress codes

I think the jobs with a dress code, are the majority.
Some dress codes are less strict then others, the same way not all the school uniforms are equally rigid. Some of them are simple T-Shirts with jeans.



Far be it for me to call your parents bad, but I feel that if they don't allow you a fair chance to voice your opinion on matters that quite directly affect your future and life in general then they may not be parenting in the best possible way.


I think that Kyuubi (and Thubby) position, is that, EVEN IF your parents let you effectively choose your school, in practice the final decision is theirs.
Without their sign, you can't go to the school you want. It's the law.

[Dispozition]

I think that Kyuubi (and Thubby) position, is that, EVEN IF your parents let you effectively choose your school, in practice the final decision is theirs.
Without their sign, you can't go to the school you want. It's the law.

Fair enough. I suppose I didn't look at it like that.

[Thajocoth]

...I'm just talking about cheap, good-quality, attractive, flexible, distinct, comfortable clothing with plenty of room for choice and individuality.

I don't think this ideal is really all that possible. #1 - Most schools that use uniforms won't follow all of these traits. #2 - Most of the ones that do... What's comfortable for one person isn't comfortable to another. #3 - I remember a friend of mine was actually allergic to the uniform... Had to wear loose very plastic-looking clothes... (Which were a horrid bright purple.) If no one else was in uniform, this would not have stood out AS badly...

[Katana_Geldar]

I really don't understand the objections to it, they're really just clothes and there's no need to go into the whole touchy feely stuff about liberty, freedom and choice. Sometimes there are things you just have to do, and one of them is wear a school uniform unless you can't for medical reasons (like above).

Anyways, maybe we can show some pictures of uniforms. Here's from my old school, but it's just the uniforms and gives you an idea of what they're like.

Here (http://www.ajass.com.au/directory/new-south-wales/st-joseph2019s-catholic-college/2007-03-15.6385548298/image)

The girls on the left have the senior uniform (something I objected to as it meant buying a whole nother uniform including jumper and new hat), the blue dress was what we wore in summer and the far right is the sport uniform which we could wear shorts. The winter sports uniform was done in the same lurid colours (fuschia and royal blue) and now I've left that school they make surprisingly good ski gear!

[thubby]

I really don't understand the objections to it, they're really just clothes and there's no need to go into the whole touchy feely stuff about liberty, freedom and choice. Sometimes there are things you just have to do, and one of them is wear a school uniform unless you can't for medical reasons (like above).

if they're "just clothes" then why do they have uniforms to begin with?

[Killer Angel]

if they're "just clothes" then why do they have uniforms to begin with?

They're just standardized clothes.
No more different then standardized clothes you wear in sport teams (generally, in all sport-related associations). It's not a matter of "limiting your freedom", it's more "identifying as a group".

[Thanatos 51-50]

It still isn't your choice the way it's your choice which job you go to.

If I don't want to work at McDonalds I don't have to. I can apply to other places and avoid it like the plague if I feel inclined.

If I don't want to go to a specific school, I have to convince my parents to take me to a different one. I don't personally have any real choice in the matter.

You had a choice in schools? The school district decided for me based on where in the district I lived, and the only contesting it was if the boundries changed recently and I had a sibling going to another one.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

I notice that those arguing against school uniforms are all from places where wearing one is not the norm. In Britain, on the other hand, it is, and I spent my entire school life wearing one, so here's my take on it:

I'm for it.
In fact, I've yet to see a good argument against it, especially from this thread. Most of the reasons put forth against them over the last 6 pages have been overblown drivel about liberty, as though wearing a uniform is the ultimate act of repression and by wearing one you become a mindless sheep.

That is very obviously not even remotely the case. It's not like your working life is going to just let you wear whatever you want, and even without a uniform you are still restricted by social pressures - they simply become more acute because now you have to decide how to present yourself within a range of socially acceptable clothing.

[thubby]

considering children get as little actual freedom as they do, they have to defend the one thing they do get, and im inclined to help *shruggs*

[Quincunx]

This conversation has been talking past itself for an interesting reason: the Australians got themselves into the "standard" position instead of the Americans. Most of the world does not mandate hats.* The usual standard (the U.S.A.) does not have freedom of choice in free public schooling outside of major cities with failing school districts. (Yes, the school has to be inadequate--if you are, tough luck, you are committed to the school.) Students in the U.S.A. are confined to school grounds during school hours and have separate school buses for transport--they don't mix with townies.


*Why do the Aussies fry and those nearer the equator not?

[drakir_nosslin]

Well, Sweden hasn't had school uniforms for quite a while now, and somehow it seems as if we're doing fine. Our children preform well above average in international tests, we don't have any more bullying, or less, than countries that commonly use school uniforms and we still have dress codes at many, many workplaces, and no one seems to have a problem with that.

So, I don't really see why we should start with it.

[Serpentine]

You know that hole in the ozone layer? Right over us. Also I suspect that the equator probably has significantly more cloud than we do. Other than that, I'm not sure.
I don't think this ideal is really all that possible. #1 - Most schools that use uniforms won't follow all of these traits. #2 - Most of the ones that do... What's comfortable for one person isn't comfortable to another. #3 - I remember a friend of mine was actually allergic to the uniform... Had to wear loose very plastic-looking clothes... (Which were a horrid bright purple.) If no one else was in uniform, this would not have stood out AS badly...#1 So you get them to do that. You don't throw something out just because it's imperfect, you fix it. I admit that something like uniforms is probably quite tradition-laden and difficult to change, but it can be done.
#2 That's why you have options, flexibility and fitting. Really, there's not many cases where "shirt and pants" is going to be outright uncomfortable - my own experience with a ridiculous brand of pants being an exception.
#3 That is an extraordinarily exceptional case. Whose idea was it to make it bright purple, anyway? I doubt it was the school uniform's fault.

I'll see if I can find a picture of my uniform. Don't hold your breaths.

[Dogmantra]

Unless you are at a private school for toffs, school uniforms are not very uncomfortable. Yes, even wearing a tie.

I am currently sitting in my private school for toffs (and me), wearing my private school for toffs (and me) uniform, including blazer, and I am pretty comfortable. My school's pretty strict too, white shirt, grey trousers, black shoes, school tie, blazer. If you have "earned" another tie as part of the school, like having a scholarship, you get a special tie that you can wear. Then as a special treat in 6th form, you can wear shirts that aren't white and if you'd like, brown shoes! The only uncomfortable thing I can imagine is if you wore the jumper with no shirt on underneath... but you wouldn't do that because that's silly and also against the regulations.

I kinda like uniforms if only because it means I don't have to bother about worrying how my clothes present me every single day.

[Killer Angel]

considering children get as little actual freedom as they do, they have to defend the one thing they do get, and im inclined to help *shruggs*

Wait, I'm losing you...
are we talking 'bout young students, or 'bout 4-5 years old children's smock?
If the latter, the childrens wear their clothes under it, and smock's different colours serve the purpose to help teachers to keep easily under control "their" childrens, even when they play and mix with the others youngling.

[Dispozition]

I am currently sitting in my private school for toffs (and me), wearing my private school for toffs (and me) uniform, including blazer, and I am pretty comfortable. My school's pretty strict too, white shirt, grey trousers, black shoes, school tie, blazer. If you have "earned" another tie as part of the school, like having a scholarship, you get a special tie that you can wear. Then as a special treat in 6th form, you can wear shirts that aren't white and if you'd like, brown shoes! The only uncomfortable thing I can imagine is if you wore the jumper with no shirt on underneath... but you wouldn't do that because that's silly and also against the regulations.

I kinda like uniforms if only because it means I don't have to bother about worrying how my clothes present me every single day.

You know, for once I agree. I was at a private school (for toffs) and the uniform (for toffs) was excellent in my opinion. Shirt and tie, dark grey trousers or light grey shorts (with long socks!), black shoes, and a blazer. I currently have 5 different school ties, most of which are given free by the school such as the leadership position tie or the old boy's tie. The jumper was bloody comfortable, and I need to unstitch the school emblem from it so I can wear it around casually...

Also a fun little fact, the area that my school was in has the highest concentration of private schools in the state, if not the country. A 5-10 minute walk could get you to 3 other private schools, add another 5 mins and you get 2 or 3 more.

[thubby]

Wait, I'm losing you...
are we talking 'bout young students, or 'bout 4-5 years old children's smock?
If the latter, the childrens wear their clothes under it, and smock's different colours serve the purpose to help teachers to keep easily under control "their" childrens, even when they play and mix with the others youngling.

students and actual uniforms.

[Sholos]

If uniforms were useful, you'd think more colleges would have them.

Uniforms don't prevent or even reduce bullying, they don't encourage "more professional" thinking, and every uniform I've ever seen I'd be uncomfortable in. There's also the matter of "you must wear this color". What if I look bad in that color? What if I just hate that colour for some reason? Dressing in an outfit that I hate every day is going to go much further towards harming my education than it will helping.

As to the notion that you don't get to pick your job because your job options are limited by your education, I call bull, unless you didn't pick what kind of education you got. As far as I know, most people get to pick what they study in college, angling for a specific job market. You really don't get to pick your school (rich kids whose parents can afford to move just because they whine about their school don't count).

[Lioness]

I'm for school uniforms, and I've worn school uniforms for my entire school life.

1) There is almost no appearance-based bullying. You can immediately judge someone based on the clothes they're wearing, because everyone's wearing a similar thing. Of course, the length of skirts comes into it a bit, but not as much.
2) Less money buying clothes (in the long run). I've recently been talking to an American woman who has a teenage son. He wants new clothes quite often, because he can't possibly wear the same thing to school more than twice! While this may not be an attitude common in the Playground, it seems as if it's common enough IRL.
3) I don't have to choose what to wear each day! There's not that much choice, and as a result, getting ready is simpler and faster.

My school uniform is fairly good.

Boys:
White shirt (long and short-sleeved)
Blue polo shirt
Jumper
Rugby top
Blazer
Long grey pants
Grey shorts
Tie

Girls:
Dark blue tartan skirt (usually worn about 3-6 inches above knee)
Light blue dress (likewise)
Jumper
Rugby top
White shirt (long and short-sleeved)
Polo shirt
Navy blue pants
Blazer
Tie
Stockings
Long white or navy socks

In addition, seniors have a hoodie. Ties are entirely optional, unless you're wearing a long-sleeved shirt. You can pretty much wear any combination. The uniform is comfortable, fairly stylish, and really the only problem is that it's expensive, which is not unusual; the school is in a fairly high-class area.
Polo shirts are about $40. Dress is $80. I'm scared to even look at the price of the blazer, but no-one wears them anyway, except Prefects.

[Killer Angel]

As far as I know, most people get to pick what they study in college, angling for a specific job market.

Yes. With your study, you usually form yourself to work in a more or less specific niche. Outside your field of competence, you're in deep disadvantage. So yeah, if you're studying to became a doctor, better you like whitecoats.
To say "if I don't like to adopt a wear code in my job, I'm free to change job" IMO is a little stretch.
You choose your specific job market; it usually comes with a specific dress code, if not a uniform.


You really don't get to pick your school (rich kids whose parents can afford to move just because they whine about their school don't count).

Err... no. (apart the fact that you depend from your parents for the final word)
I'm talking 'bout my country (so it's not universal), but here, we have plenty of choices for the kind of school you want to go, from nursery school, to senior high schools and university.
Next year, my daughter will go to primary school, and we can choose between 5 different schools (not counting the private ones).

[onthetown]

Yay for not having to spend tons of money on new school clothes every year.

I'm not particularly for or against them, but this seems like a plus for parents who take their kids out for new clothes every year.

[llamamushroom]

I'm definitely in the pro-uniform camp, but I do have a quick question for those arguing against uniforms on a "we should get to wear what we like" basis. Why is it acceptable for some kids to wear what they like, but others not?

To clarify, I think most of you would agree that anything inappropriate shouldn't be worn (too revealing, offensive slogan, etc.). But what if that's what the kid wants to wear? Why should the kids who like to wear inoffensive clothing be privileged? I know people whose entire wardrobe would be considered inappropriate, and in any school situation they would have to buy new clothes. However, if there is a uniform, they only need to buy one new set. No uniform? They need several sets of clothing.

Finally, I had a grand total of five shirts that I wore to school. All of them were my brother's before me. Yes, my school had a very expensive uniform, but I was able to get a lot of wear out of it. Speaking (well, writing) as a very self-conscious person, in a no-uniform situation I would have spent far more money on clothes than I did, simply to avoid wearing the same stuff too often. Hell, I almost got myself into strife this year when we had a spate of mufti days.

[thubby]

I'm for school uniforms, and I've worn school uniforms for my entire school life.

1) There is almost no appearance-based bullying. You can immediately judge someone based on the clothes they're wearing, because everyone's wearing a similar thing. Of course, the length of skirts comes into it a bit, but not as much.
this is blatantly false. having gone to private school for the better part of my education, it really doesn't matter. hair, height, eye color, whatever.
bullies aren't picking targets based on anything in particular, they're picking on things because they want to get to their victim

[PairO'Dice Lost]

On the whole "preparing for professional life" angle: There's a big difference between having a dress code and a uniform. I don't mind a dress code as much, since if you say "You must wear W or X color shirt and Y or Z color pants" I can find something affordable and comfortable that fits the way I want it; if you say "You must wear this polo shirt with the little school logo and these khaki pants" then I'm at the mercy of the uniform stores.

Also, there's no guarantee it is preparing you for the real world. I'm studying computer science, so my high school and college internships have been in software development positions. For a private company job I was in the T-shirt and shorts camp, for my consulting job I had to wear a full suit (though we could leave off the tie and jacket in the afternoons when management wasn't around), and for my government job it was polo and slacks all the way. The only one my private school uniforms would have prepared me for is the consulting job, and even then I got those suit jackets cheaper than the school blazer because I found one or two on sale and got one or two from my dad.


Why is it acceptable for some kids to wear what they like, but others not?

To clarify, I think most of you would agree that anything inappropriate shouldn't be worn (too revealing, offensive slogan, etc.). But what if that's what the kid wants to wear? Why should the kids who like to wear inoffensive clothing be privileged? I know people whose entire wardrobe would be considered inappropriate, and in any school situation they would have to buy new clothes. However, if there is a uniform, they only need to buy one new set. No uniform? They need several sets of clothing.

My high school was a "magnet school" for science and technology (meaning we drew in kids from several different counties across the state) so we were cut a lot of slack on dress codes and other things. Several of my classmates wore Metallica or other metal shirts most days with chains, headphones, the whole shebang. They weren't rebelling against the establishment, they weren't wearing gang symbols, and no one was offended by their clothing, so they were able to wear it just fine. In the normal public high school down the road, restrictions were much tighter because of the gangs and the uptight parents. The level of dress code really depends on the school and the area it's in, so if the student body can handle it I'm in favor of basically letting kids wear what they want with a minimal dress code.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

I am currently sitting in my private school for toffs (and me), wearing my private school for toffs (and me) uniform, including blazer, and I am pretty comfortable.

It was much the same case at my private school for toffs. Which is partially why I can't understand the "Oh my God, they're going to take away my freedom and comfort with a uniform of darkness" attitude.

Incidentally, dress trousers fit me better than jeans.

:smallcool:

[Jack Squat]

Uniforms don't prevent or even reduce bullying, they don't encourage "more professional" thinking, and every uniform I've ever seen I'd be uncomfortable in. There's also the matter of "you must wear this color". What if I look bad in that color? What if I just hate that colour for some reason? Dressing in an outfit that I hate every day is going to go much further towards harming my education than it will helping.

Actually, you learn to gut up and deal with it, which is a skill essential to thriving in the real world.


As to the notion that you don't get to pick your job because your job options are limited by your education, I call bull, unless you didn't pick what kind of education you got. As far as I know, most people get to pick what they study in college, angling for a specific job market. You really don't get to pick your school (rich kids whose parents can afford to move just because they whine about their school don't count).

There's an entire slew of degrees that are practically useless for getting a job in the field of study. There's others that can land you a job in several fields, but most are good for a select few fields. So even if you get to "pick your education", you're still limited to what kind of jobs you can get - and you could certainly be limited to jobs that you didn't anticipate.

[Ashen Lilies]

Uniforms: Not so bad. Well, not so bad now, seeing as I'm a senior now and get to wear the cool uniform of cool senior students [white shirt, navy/black trousers or tartan skirt, and blue tie (optional except on certain days, but most people wear it anyway because the white shirt is too plain otherwise)]. As opposed to the uncool uniform of uncool non-senior students [sky blue shirt, beige shorts or navy skirt, and orange tie (optional except on certain days, but no one wears it because, well, orange)]. Well, technically both ties are orange, but the non-senior tie has noticeably more orange in it than the senior tie does. My only real issues with it are that only senior girls are given the option to wear trousers instead of skirts, and that long trousers aren't available for the non-seniors. I know I certainly spent most of middle school wishing I didn't have to wear those godawful shorts.

On the topic of the current debate, I do agree that having a school uniform adds to the distinctiveness of the school, as well as keeps things clean and sharp. Some people manage to look like total slobs with a school uniform, so I'd hate to imagine what it would be like without. It just presents the wrong sort of attitude, in my opinion anyway. Of course, I may just be a toff. A toff who hates FREEDOM.

[AslanCross]

I've been teaching for 5 years. I've taught in a public school and am now teaching in a private school. Both have uniforms.

In this country, school children are easy targets for kidnappers. The uniform helps distinguish between students and outsiders, especially in situations where the security cannot be as tight as we would like it to be. (The current school I teach in shares a building with a church, so people come and go all throughout the day.) The ID card isn't as effective as it's not as noticeable as a uniform.

Also, having uniforms is cheaper than buying clothes, whether those casual clothes are trendy, comfortable, both, or neither.

[Mauve Shirt]

I like skirts in the summer, but I'd hate having to wear tights and a skirt in the winter. If there isn't an option to wear pants, I'm against it.
If you go to a school with uniforms, do you have one for every day of the week, or do you have to wash it every night? I don't mind wearing pants multiple days in a row, but shirts I do.

[Milskidasith]

So far, I've seen no good arguments for or against uniforms. For uniforms: Clothes based bullying simply doesn't exist (I've never seen it), and in all but the strictest uniform settings, you can still show off with 100 dollar haircuts or watches or sunglasses or shoes or even just wearing unique jackets. They don't make bad kids act any better, they don't teach life lessons, etc. They are also not, in fact, cheap. Cheaper than high end clothes? Yes. Cheaper than T-Shirts or other clothes at the same standard as the uniform? Hell no, uniforms have to be bought so the markup is huge (in my area, uniform, single color polo shirts are around $20 each, while you can easily get something similar for around $10.)

Against them... The only argument is that it limits freedoms, which is actually a good one. And plenty can be uncomfortable; I know I hate ever wearing more than one layer of clothing.

So, basically, I see no benefit, at all, to uniforms, and a small benefit to not wearing uniforms... so I'm in favor of uniforms. While you could bring up, say, class trips, that's what IDs or specific "wear this T-Shirt" days are for.

Note: This is coming from the U.S. education system.

[Ashen Lilies]

We're fairly efficient about laundry in my household, so I make do with three or four sets of uniform, instead of one every day of the week.

[Jack Squat]

I think I had a couple different sets of uniforms back when I was in my school that required a uniform. I know at my current job, I get a couple days out of a polo shirt because I wear an undershirt. I could probably go longer before any stench sets in, but it's generally dirty in other ways before that gets a chance to happen.

[drakir_nosslin]

My high school was a "magnet school" for science and technology (meaning we drew in kids from several different counties across the state) so we were cut a lot of slack on dress codes and other things. Several of my classmates wore Metallica or other metal shirts most days with chains, headphones, the whole shebang. They weren't rebelling against the establishment, they weren't wearing gang symbols, and no one was offended by their clothing, so they were able to wear it just fine. In the normal public high school down the road, restrictions were much tighter because of the gangs and the uptight parents. The level of dress code really depends on the school and the area it's in, so if the student body can handle it I'm in favor of basically letting kids wear what they want with a minimal dress code.

Huh, interesting. Here, at least in all the schools I've been to (both among the smallest and the biggest in the country) the only dress code I've ever heard about is no caps/hats indoors. And that was from a very conservative teacher. Otherwise we've been free to wear whatever we wanted as long as it doesn't break the law. And that's how it should be, I think. No one should be forced to do something just for the sake of it. If wearing a mini-skirt or heaps of bling or coloring your hair green makes you happy, then by all means do so. I don't care, though I prefer shirts, suits and ties and similar clothing. The most informal clothes I own are jeans and white t-shirts, one of my best friends on the other hand shuns those kinds of clothes like the plague. He likes hoodies and large, trash-style jeans.

On the other hand, if you prefer to wear the same kind of clothes every day, I won't stop you, and if you prefer to go to a school where everyone likes to do that, sure, go ahead. There is nothing wrong with that either, as long as you choose yourself.

By the way, does anyone know if there has ever been made a completely scientific un-biased study on this? It would be interesting to read about.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, basically, I see no benefit, at all, to uniforms, and a small benefit to not wearing uniforms... so I'm in favor of uniforms.

:smallconfused: Shouldn't that be "No benefit to uniforms, small benefit to no uniforms, therefore you favor no uniforms"?


Huh, interesting. Here, at least in all the schools I've been to (both among the smallest and the biggest in the country) the only dress code I've ever heard about is no caps/hats indoors. And that was from a very conservative teacher. Otherwise we've been free to wear whatever we wanted as long as it doesn't break the law. And that's how it should be, I think.

Funny you mention hats. Plenty of people wore hats in my school and the teachers didn't care, but a few people from the county school board (who didn't quite understand that we had a much more lenient dress code) came in to take a look around the school and complained about it. School policy was changed to say we "can't wear hats on our heads indoors" or something close. Cue two solid weeks of people wearing those cheesy cardboard party hats on shoulders, on elbows, on backpacks, and everywhere else but their heads. The policy was removed. :smallbiggrin:

The main reason there were dress codes at all near me were, as I said, the gangs. Two or three public high schools in our county (out of at least a dozen) have children of recent Hispanic immigrants as a large majority of their population, and there's plenty of gang activity because of that--to the point that wearing, say, a red bandana or a blue wristband or something else innocuous like that can mark you as a member of gang X and get you beaten up and possible severely injured. The vast majority of schools are just fine, but because the county insists on standardizing dress codes across the county like everything else (my high school being the only exception) every other school has to put up with it.

[Killer Angel]

So far, I've seen no good arguments for or against uniforms.

Here (http://www.educationbug.org/a/public-school-uniform-debate.html) is a summary of pro and con

[drakir_nosslin]

Hats and Gangs...

Yea, I think the hat issue comes from the fact that tradition states that you remove your hat/'whatever on your head thing' when you enter a building. However, that's not really the case any more. I see loads of people, young and old, every day wearing different stuff on their head. Strangest thing I've ever seen was a guy with a stuffed duck on top of his buzz cut.

And since we don't have that kind of gang culture here, we don't have the same kind of trouble, but I can understand why the regulations are there. It's worth it if you can save someone from getting in trouble just because they happen to have the same taste in clothing as the local gang leader.

[SilentNight]

EDIT: At the last place I worked, some of the people decided to do a joke on "Casual Fridays" by creating "Formal Fridays". They'd come in dressed in their most formal attire... One guy wore completely black tie... Every Friday... (I didn't participate.)

A couple of friends and I do this at our school (where there's no uniforms thankfully). We call it "non-casual Friday". It's a nice opportunity to wear a blazer to school.


The main reason there were dress codes at all near me were, as I said, the gangs. Two or three public high schools in our county (out of at least a dozen) have children of recent Hispanic immigrants as a large majority of their population, and there's plenty of gang activity because of that--to the point that wearing, say, a red bandana or a blue wristband or something else innocuous like that can mark you as a member of gang X and get you beaten up and possible severely injured. The vast majority of schools are just fine, but because the county insists on standardizing dress codes across the county like everything else (my high school being the only exception) every other school has to put up with it.

That's a pretty big problem in my area as well, no specific demographic though. Our district has gone further to ban beanies as well on account of one case when a student was wearing a rolled-up ski-mask and an administrator found out.

[Ashen Lilies]

We have 'bow-tie Friday' here, or at least are trying to. It hasn't really caught on, except with the teachers and seniors. Also, bow-ties are hard to find. :smallfrown:

[drakir_nosslin]

A couple of friends and I do this at our school (where there's no uniforms thankfully). We call it "non-casual Friday". It's a nice opportunity to wear a blazer to school.

Yea, we used to do that in my class as well, but only something like once a month or so. We were around six or seven guys who turned up in suits all of a sudden. Trust me, people looked very strangely sometimes, but it was fun, and nice to get to use the suit, as I didn't have that many reasons to do so back then.

[Pyrian]

So, basically, I see no benefit, at all, to uniforms, and a small benefit to not wearing uniforms... so I'm in favor of uniforms.:smallconfused: Shouldn't that be "No benefit to uniforms, small benefit to no uniforms, therefore you favor no uniforms"?Maybe he just hates kids and wants them to suffer. :smallcool:

[Serpentine]

If uniforms were useful, you'd think more colleges would have them.University students don't tend to wander off from the group, won't get lost or kidnapped if they do, are pretty much free to go wherever they want whenever they want, and don't really matter if they get mixed up with another group. So no, the fact that colleges don't have uniforms doesn't mean they're not useful.

[The Glyphstone]

Since when do colleges/universities make any policies based on if their outcome is useful or not?:smallyuk::smallbiggrin::smallconfused:

[Mauve Shirt]

On hats in school, I once wore a pretty nice bandanna in my hair and it was confiscated 'cause it could have been a gang symbol.

My roommate participates in "fabulous friday", but I just don't have any fabulous clothing.

[drakir_nosslin]

University students don't tend to wander off from the group, won't get lost or kidnapped if they do, are pretty much free to go wherever they want whenever they want, and don't really matter if they get mixed up with another group. So no, the fact that colleges don't have uniforms doesn't mean they're not useful.

That's interesting, because neither me (as a child) nor my mum (as a teacher) have ever experienced any problems with children getting lost/mixed with another school at trips or visits. Of course, my mum sometimes have to stop and wait for children who hasn't been keeping up, but that's not the same thing. Perhaps teachers in schools without uniforms become better at remembering what the children wear, or remember other things about them to recognize them?

Now, I'm not saying that Uniforms doesn't help in this particular case, but I'm pretty sure that it is completely possible to manage fine without them.

[Milskidasith]

:smallconfused: Shouldn't that be "No benefit to uniforms, small benefit to no uniforms, therefore you favor no uniforms"?

Typo.


Maybe he just hates kids and wants them to suffer. :smallcool:

I am a kid. Also, typo.


Here (http://www.educationbug.org/a/public-school-uniform-debate.html) is a summary of pro and con

As I said, no good reasons. They're all overblown, overstated, or not even a problem to begin with, or solved without uniforms (ID solves campus visitors, though really, saying uniforms help identify intruders is really irrelevant because it doesn't solve the [possible] problem of schools being incredibly easy to enter anyway.)

Basically, all the points listed in that debate site are the same that have been brought up here, and besides free expression and possible comfort issues (which score minor points), there's nothing that really matters, at all, on either side... so I side with no uniform.

[shadow_archmagi]

Nay. I mean, why bother? It's pointless work.

I mean, I've heard a lot of people here say things like "So what if it isn't what you want? Suck it up! That's what life is about!"

Of course, by that logic, students should also be made to fill out elaborate, entirely pointless forms every day. Also, they should be kicked in the shins.

Funny Anecdote: My senior year of highschool, there was a no-wearing-hats-indoors policy. One day, an announcement came in, in which the principal said (and this is REALLY to the best of my recollection, I'm trying not to skew or add anything)

"It has come to my attention that a lot of students have been seen carrying hats. To the best of my knowledge, there is no use for a hat other than to wear a hat, and as we have a strict policy against wearing hats indoors, I can only assume that these students are carrying the hats with the intention of wearing them when there is no supervisor to tell them otherwise."

Yes. My school had reached the point that they were worried people were going to wear hats in secret when they weren't looking.

My Life Is TF2

[Killer Angel]

Basically, all the points listed in that debate site are the same that have been brought up here, and besides free expression and possible comfort issues (which score minor points), there's nothing that really matters, at all, on either side... so I side with no uniform.

Yep, both sides have relatively good arguments, easily counterable.
So I suppose it depends on the eye of the observer.
In almost all sport-related associations, a common "uniform" is used to identify as a group, even outside official competitions, and no one finds it strange.

[Tirian]

We have 'bow-tie Friday' here, or at least are trying to.

My name is Tirian, and I approve of this message.


Also, bow-ties are hard to find. :smallfrown:

On the plus side, bow ties are easy and inexpensive to make.

[shadow_archmagi]

In almost all sport-related associations, a common "uniform" is used to identify as a group, even outside official competitions, and no one finds it strange.

The difference being that team sports are something people

A. Choose

B. Choose because they enjoy them (Disregarding the occasional case of someone deciding early on in life that they're going to get a football scholarship and then treating the game like a job at an accounting firm, but I really don't know how common that is)

C. Actually have some benefit to knowing which group is which. Admittedly, in something like Volleyball, the uniform is largely unnecessary, but for other sports it could be relevant.

[Castaras]

My school has the policy of uniform up to year 11, then for years 12 and 13 non-uniform.

To be honest, I wouldn't care if I was in uniform again. Wouldn't make a difference - With my current non-uniform, I grab the jeans, and grab the first t shirt I find. When I had uniform, I grabbed my trousers and a schoolshirt. Same thing really.


Advantage I see with uniform is everyone is the same in that respect. Disadvantage is everyone is the same in that respect.

Non-uniform? Advantage is you get to wear what you want. Disadvantage is your clothing is now partly controlled by the crowd (*Gasp* You wore a t-shirt that was still perfectly clean and wearable for a SECOND DAY?! -.-)

[Allan Surgite]

I'm in favour of school uniforms, as I've always worn one. I wouldn't be in favour of allowing the students of the school I attend to wear what they want, but that's just because the students in my school probably shouldn't be allowed to express themselves more than they do.

[Killer Angel]

The difference being that team sports are something people

A. Choose

(snip)

My point was that, if you choose to join such a group, you're going to have you defined clothes, even if you don't like the idea of the "uniform".

I know that, with sports, you choose to do it, while with school, you have to go, but the debate (I think) isn't to extend the school uniform to all the schools.
My opinion is that, when there is a uniform, it's not a bad thing.

[druid91]

Nay. I mean, why bother? It's pointless work.

I mean, I've heard a lot of people here say things like "So what if it isn't what you want? Suck it up! That's what life is about!"

Of course, by that logic, students should also be made to fill out elaborate, entirely pointless forms every day. Also, they should be kicked in the shins.

Funny Anecdote: My senior year of highschool, there was a no-wearing-hats-indoors policy. One day, an announcement came in, in which the principal said (and this is REALLY to the best of my recollection, I'm trying not to skew or add anything)

"It has come to my attention that a lot of students have been seen carrying hats. To the best of my knowledge, there is no use for a hat other than to wear a hat, and as we have a strict policy against wearing hats indoors, I can only assume that these students are carrying the hats with the intention of wearing them when there is no supervisor to tell them otherwise."

Yes. My school had reached the point that they were worried people were going to wear hats in secret when they weren't looking.

My Life Is TF2
That is hilarious.

Personally I think public school systems priorities are a bit scewed. As in I got a week of I.S.S. for not getting my homework notebook signed, Despite the fact that I did my homework, and the rule was there simply to remind me of the homework. Yet a while back a kid sexually harassed my sisters friend and got a couple of days of I.S.S.

And, here at least, Elementary through high school is not (with the exception of vo-tech classes) meant to prepare you for life, it is meant to prepare you for college. And it doesn't even do that very well.

[Mystic Muse]

I think that Kyuubi (and Thubby) position, is that, EVEN IF your parents let you effectively choose your school, in practice the final decision is theirs.
Without their sign, you can't go to the school you want. It's the law.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say. Shouldn't have mentioned my parents though because they already let me go to the school I want. I meant it as an example and it was like 4 AM or something when I wrote it.

[THAC0]

The whole "teenagers are totally rebellious" thing is overblown anyways. You don't "need" to rebel. You just need to start thinking more about the world and your beliefs.


For the record, when I say "rebel" it doesn't mean going out and partying and being crazy. It's a part of growing up and becoming more independent - in fact, much of what you just said about thinking more about the world and your beliefs. My rebelling was when I decided that my religious views did not match my parents, and suchlike. Of course, since I was an immature teenager and wasn't able to control whether or not I accompanied them to their religious services, I expressed this by dressing horribly, then getting yelled at until I changed into something less dirty and ripped up. :smallsmile:

But really, teens do "need" to "rebel," or to "find themselves" or whatever, and this debate is a perfect example: "Uniforms are repressing my individuality" or whatever.

I think it would be interesting to break down the opinions here by age. I know when I was in highschool I would have fought strongly against uniforms. Now, I really don't care and can see the other side.

[the_tick_rules]

I like the japanese school girl uniforms, does that count?

[Dallas-Dakota]

I
2) Less money buying clothes (in the long run). I've recently been talking to an American woman who has a teenage son. He wants new clothes quite often, because he can't possibly wear the same thing to school more than twice! While this may not be an attitude common in the Playground, it seems as if it's common enough IRL.

No.
This is, quite simply, bad parenting.
You have to teach your kid(s) to only buy clothes they're comfortable with or need to buy as part of a uniform.(And the latter is rarely applied over here in the Netherlands. Since most Workfloor shirts are given out by the employer)
No kid will get shunned because he wore the same clothes more then twice ever, well maybe as a cover for something. But unless you go to billionaire school, no kid will ever get bullied for this. I've gone to a lot of high schools, small and elitist and big and for everybody and small for people with problems.

Only ONCE was it even brought up that I wear one vest a LOT, that was on the school for people with problems and even then the majority of the group sided with me because I said that it's just very comfy and they knew it's not smelly since I wash it regularly. So yeah. This, in no way is ''common IRL''.

Also the position on uniforms making you look more professional: Nope, that's not quite true. I've been told that I am and look very professional, when working. And that with my standard black pants, band shirt, dark green vest and long (unkempt) curly hair. It's all about attitude. If you hold yourself with, and work with a professional attitude, people will sooner view you professionaly.

Seconding Cassie, especially that last arguement. Since I will wear my vest muchos muchos and muchos(long live laundry machines(can't remember exact translation at the moment, or is it just washing machine?:smalltongue:), throw in in the evening clean and dry in the morning) and it's washed about once or twice a week.

And for the rest, this debate amuses me, so I'm going to shut up and watch.:smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

I like the japanese school girl uniforms, does that count?

No. No it does not.:smalltongue:

[Thajocoth]

*Why do the Aussies fry and those nearer the equator not?

That's the ozone hole. It's bigger down there. Lets a lot of more dangerous UV rays through.


You know that hole in the ozone layer? Right over us. Also I suspect that the equator probably has significantly more cloud than we do. Other than that, I'm not sure.#1 So you get them to do that. You don't throw something out just because it's imperfect, you fix it. I admit that something like uniforms is probably quite tradition-laden and difficult to change, but it can be done.
#2 That's why you have options, flexibility and fitting. Really, there's not many cases where "shirt and pants" is going to be outright uncomfortable - my own experience with a ridiculous brand of pants being an exception.
#3 That is an extraordinarily exceptional case. Whose idea was it to make it bright purple, anyway? I doubt it was the school uniform's fault.

I'll see if I can find a picture of my uniform. Don't hold your breaths.

#1 - That never works. It's absolutely beyond ridiculous to think that any majority of people will behave the ideal way for anything. They never have... They never will. I'm usually an optimist for most things. I absolutely HATE cynicism... I think people generally do what they THINK is ideal, at least... But they disagree too much on what's ideal. Most people who are pro-uniform think the ideal has girls wearing skirts until the dead of winter and guys wearing long pants no matter how hot it gets. So it doesn't work.
#2 - That's not a uniform then. Uniform = The same. Having options makes it simply a very very strict dress code.
#3 - I assumed at the time that that was the only outfit he could get in something of that material. I think the material was whatever skydivers would wear... Loose... plasticy...

[Mando Knight]

No. No it does not.:smalltongue:

How about a Catholic schoolgirl uniform? :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

I think it would be interesting to break down the opinions here by age. I know when I was in highschool I would have fought strongly against uniforms. Now, I really don't care and can see the other side.
I'm 23, graduated college earlier this year, and am against school uniforms. As someone who attended both schools with and without them I see no rational reason for them, and lacking such a reason they are merely a pointless and arbitrary rule.

Zevox

[Mystic Muse]

How about a Catholic schoolgirl uniform? :smalltongue:

Aren't they the exact same thing except with a plaid skirt instead of blue?

Regardless, no, it does not count.

[The Big Dice]

Ok so I've skimmed this thread and seen a lot of people complain about school uniforms. But really, they aren't a big deal.

I wore one for years. In fact, without one I might not have learned how to tie a tie properly. But I digress.

In my experience, school uniforms are pants and shirt of specific colours, a certain design of tie and a sweater. When I was at school it was knit with a V-neck (not very flattering but it did show the tie). Nowadays kids wear sweatshirts with the school logo embroidered on the breast. Some schools have a blazer too, but that isn't universal.

But mostly what I see is kids looking smartly dressed on their way to school in the morning and scruffy on their way home. And that tallies with my own experience at high school.

School uniforms bring a sense of community with them. A sense of belonging, and of not wanting to mingle with people from other schools. Until dating girls from other schools becomes an option, because girls from that other school are always so much hotter than the ones in your school.

What they don't bring is conformity. Well, not unless you go to the kind of school where you can only purchase the items on the uniform list from a certain store. There's a girl's school like that not far from me. Literally everything from socks and underwear to the cape (yes, it's so traditional that the students there wear capes in the winter) has to come from a single store.

The ting is, everyone wears a uniform anyway. It might be the outfit of their social clique, it might be the outfit of the rebellious outsider clique. Why not codify that and have everyone wearing the same colours?

[druid91]

Ok so I've skimmed this thread and seen a lot of people complain about school uniforms. But really, they aren't a big deal.

I wore one for years. In fact, without one I might not have learned how to tie a tie properly. But I digress.

In my experience, school uniforms are pants and shirt of specific colours, a certain design of tie and a sweater. When I was at school it was knit with a V-neck (not very flattering but it did show the tie). Nowadays kids wear sweatshirts with the school logo embroidered on the breast. Some schools have a blazer too, but that isn't universal.

But mostly what I see is kids looking smartly dressed on their way to school in the morning and scruffy on their way home. And that tallies with my own experience at high school.

School uniforms bring a sense of community with them. A sense of belonging, and of not wanting to mingle with people from other schools. Until dating girls from other schools becomes an option, because girls from that other school are always so much hotter than the ones in your school.

What they don't bring is conformity. Well, not unless you go to the kind of school where you can only purchase the items on the uniform list from a certain store. There's a girl's school like that not far from me. Literally everything from socks and underwear to the cape (yes, it's so traditional that the students there wear capes in the winter) has to come from a single store.

The ting is, everyone wears a uniform anyway. It might be the outfit of their social clique, it might be the outfit of the rebellious outsider clique. Why not codify that and have everyone wearing the same colours?

Why on earth would you want to give school children a sense of community?:smallconfused:

I thought the idea was to stop problems, not start a holy war for possession of the ice cream shop?:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:[/sarcasm]

[Thajocoth]

I never had a sense of community. Ever. I still don't and really don't see the point of it. I wore uniforms from 3rd grade through 8th at two different schools.

[DrWeird]

I once had to wear uniform, and it was rather unfun; the consequences were negligible for not wearing them, and it just upset the student body I was a part of. In fact, all it did was make us more upset about having to go to school - especially the 'too cool for school' crowd. It seems uniforms have really lost their edge in a day and age where they can't be backed up with the rules and discipline that they used to. Not in public schools, anyways...it's really a dated concept, and schools with vulgarity, spirit and student discipline issues should really just get in line and realize there's very little they can do about it. That said, at this age, they seem like moreso a waste of money than a bad idea.

[onthetown]

It's scary how controversial a conversation about clothing is.

When I was at school, I wasn't there to try to stand out and make impressions and be an individual -- I was there for my education. I wore sweats every day because I couldn't honestly give a crap what I had to wear, and I would have worn a uniform if it was required. If I'm at work and they want me to wear a uniform, fine. I'm there for my money, not for making trends and developing individuality.

While school is a large part of any kid's life, therefore playing a large role during their "developing individuality" years, clothing shouldn't make the individual. The individual makes the individual. Sure, some people establish it or accent it with clothing, but your friends should like you for who you are and your enemies should hate you for who you are. Not what you wear.

The point is, no matter how some people treat their time there, school is for giving us an education. (Also, as I've recently realized, a bit of a prep course for real life jobs -- do your work for 6+ hours a day, get paid. The payment with school is high marks or a diploma or whatever, the payment with a job is money.)

However: Given that there are way too many factories for pointless things in the world already, one thing I dislike about school uniforms is that it's just one more market to expend resources on.

[Phaedra]

How about a Catholic schoolgirl uniform? :smalltongue:

Having actually been a Catholic schoolgirl, I can say with some certainty that you would be horribly disappointed by the uniform in practice. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Well, it's not the actual uniform that's consumed during the fulfillment of the fetish, generally.

It's the re-envisioning of the idea of the uniform.

[Raistlin1040]

Nay. I like my faded jeans, band t-shirts, and clunky goth boots. Basically, it comes down to the same argument on both sides, that is, "why does it matter?" People for uniforms say "Why do clothes matter so much? Why do you have to wear whatever you want to feel individual?" and people against them say "Why do clothes matter so much? Why do you have to wear the same thing to feel like a community?"

I just don't see much of a reason for it. I've never seen clothing based bullying, and I regularly wear a Lady Gaga shirt in a school that is a little right of center, in general. If it's about fostering a sense of community, there are better ways to do it than just "make everyone look the same". For me, it's not even really an individual liberty thing. It's just such a minor issue, I don't see the reason for expending effort in devising and enforcing an official uniform.

[shadow_archmagi]

@Community: To be honest I never really felt any desire to be a part of the school 'community.'

I felt like interrupting class to have mandatory pep rallies was a complete waste of time.

Interrupting my pants would be an even bigger waste.

[Raistlin1040]

@Community: To be honest I never really felt any desire to be a part of the school 'community.'

I felt like interrupting class to have mandatory pep rallies was a complete waste of time.

Interrupting my pants would be an even bigger waste.Also this.

[Zevox]

I felt like interrupting class to have mandatory pep rallies was a complete waste of time.
Oh yes, I am in complete agreement. Pep rallies were incredibly loud and obnoxious, with no redeeming qualities, and are a major thing I did not miss going from high school to college. I'd far rather have been in class than at a pep rally.

Zevox

[toasty]

[quote]While school is a large part of any kid's life, therefore playing a large role during their "developing individuality" years, clothing shouldn't make the individual. The individual makes the individual. Sure, some people establish it or accent it with clothing, but your friends should like you for who you are and your enemies should hate you for who you are. Not what you wear.

Random note I feel I should point out: Apperances are a lot, yes, and clothes can help. A guy with Tattoos, long hair and leather biker vests will give off a different vibe than guys who are clean-shaven and wear a business suit. Both can be in the same profession, but they give off different vibes. Clothes help tell you about someone.

I grew up in a country where kids where proud of their uniforms because everyone who went to school had one and education was a major privilege. As a result people really valued their uniforms and wanted them. Uniforms were a sign that you went to school. Also, since it was darn hot, amongst the real poor its quite likely that a child might not own much in the way of clothes EXCEPT their uniform. Yea... :smalltongue:

However, I'm Also American and I like wearing what I want to school. When I was younger I probably wouldn't have liked a uniform (I was homeschooled... no need for a uniform! :smallbiggrin:), but I would have gotten used to it. I wouldn't have liked it, especially because I'm a very casual person and most uniforms are more formal that I like, but I would have adjusted. It wouldn't have been fun, but I would have adjusted. You can be assured, however, that I avoided Universities with Dress Codes.

[Knaight]

Nay.

Near every goal intended by uniforms either fails or is irrelevant. A quick summation. Uniforms theoretically:

Remove the importance of clothes.
(Stressing variation in clothing as an important thing to remove encourages a view that clothing is important, allowing continuation of a superficial culture.)

Create a sense of community.
(Communities are largely defined as groups of people seen as more important than others. So, the community created is that of people that live near each other, rather than people who have similar ethics, ideologies, or other important traits. This needs to go away.)

Encourage a realization that people and their clothes are different.
(Variation in clothing allows easy identification of people who don't already realize this, thus allowing correction of a stupid opinion, or identification of someone who forms emotional attachments to meaningless beliefs. In short, making people smarter or isolating morons.)

Prevent dress identified cliques.
(A clique is nothing more than a group of friends, these should exist. As for dress identified cliques, they are simply based upon the shared interest of fashion, no harm there.)

[Thajocoth]

@Community: To be honest I never really felt any desire to be a part of the school 'community.'

I felt like interrupting class to have mandatory pep rallies was a complete waste of time.

Interrupting my pants would be an even bigger waste.

Same here! I could never understand why people are so loyal to the place they're at just because they happen to live there... On ANY level...

[Katana_Geldar]

Same here! I could never understand why people are so loyal to the place they're at just because they happen to live there... On ANY level...

Does that include patriotism?

Sometimes school pride is little more than "We rock!"

[shadow_archmagi]

Same here! I could never understand why people are so loyal to the place they're at just because they happen to live there... On ANY level...

As I always say, patriotism is just racism for geographers

[Gullara]

As I always say, patriotism is just racism for geographers

Lol pretty much.

I don't know how patriotic I am. Canada is a good place to live, but I'm sure lots of places are.

[Thajocoth]

Does that include patriotism?

Yes. Though, further elaboration would likely get into politics... Bad idea... So we probably shouldn't discuss that.

[Knaight]

Does that include patriotism?
See post above.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Prevent dress identified cliques.
(A clique is nothing more than a group of friends, these should exist. As for dress identified cliques, they are simply based upon the shared interest of fashion, no harm there.)

This strikes me, personally, as particularly weird, as it can only be a good thing.
For, example, I see a dude across the quad or whatever wearing an Order of the Stick T-shirt:
"DUDE! You like OotS? I do too! We should totally chat about that for a while and maybe become friends! Smileyface!"
Or, a more negative example:
I see a dude across the quad (or whatever) proclaiming his everlasting love for a series I loathe completely or his everlasting hate for my everlasting media love. This is probably not a person I want to sit down and chat with. On the other hand, I may just start up a spirited debate! Maybe we can convince each other that the series/media ISN'T ACTUALLY BAD AT ALL!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Blech. I hate school uniforms. Blue jeans and a green shirt (Or my Spamalot shirt) anyday. Especially skirts. I. Hate. Skits. And dresses. I hate hate hate wearing them. It's probably the way I sit (I tend to sit kneeling or perched on my feet.). It's also that I can't move as comfortably in a skirt or a dress. Besides, I like my clothes. They're comfortable.

[CrimsonAngel]

I hate uniforms, for the first 11 years of my life I had to tuck in my shirt and wear a belt. Do you know how hard it is to keep your shirt tucked in when you play on a junlge gym upsidown? :smallfurious:

[Zevox]

Does that include patriotism?
Yes. Though, further elaboration would likely get into politics... Bad idea... So we probably shouldn't discuss that.
Just chiming in to agree with this sentiment. I'll refrain from saying more for the same reason as Thajocoth.

Zevox

[AtlanteanTroll]

Aren't they the exact same thing except with a plaid skirt instead of blue?

Regardless, no, it does not count.

Of course it does. If someone's wearing it to turn someone "on" then it doesn't, but if it's the dress code, it certainly does. As would the Japanese school girl uniforms.

[Lioness]

this is blatantly false. having gone to private school for the better part of my education, it really doesn't matter. hair, height, eye color, whatever.
bullies aren't picking targets based on anything in particular, they're picking on things because they want to get to their victim

It might be false for you, but I've found that there's a lot more bullying on casual days than there is everyday.


No.
This is, quite simply, bad parenting.
You have to teach your kid(s) to only buy clothes they're comfortable with or need to buy as part of a uniform.(And the latter is rarely applied over here in the Netherlands. Since most Workfloor shirts are given out by the employer)
No kid will get shunned because he wore the same clothes more then twice ever, well maybe as a cover for something. But unless you go to billionaire school, no kid will ever get bullied for this. I've gone to a lot of high schools, small and elitist and big and for everybody and small for people with problems.


I think I was exaggerating, though I see your point.
She's a really good parent, and she doesn't buy him new clothes all the time, but he feels the pressure from his peers to be "cool" and buy new stuff.

[Knaight]

I think I was exaggerating, though I see your point.
She's a really good parent, and she doesn't buy him new clothes all the time, but he feels the pressure from his peers to be "cool" and buy new stuff.
Then he is hanging out with the wrong peers. Having access to this warning sign is convenient.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Then he is hanging out with the wrong peers. Having access to this warning sign is convenient.

Most everyone must then.

[shadow_archmagi]

Most everyone must then.

Sturgeon's Law applies to peers too

[Milskidasith]

Again... I've literally never met somebody who cared that much about clothes, to the point they felt ostracized for not having cool clothes. I mean, I am mostly convinced it's mostly just a media exaggeration and those that say "You need these clothes to hang out with these guys" are the ones buying the clothes to fit in, not the group in question (meaning people say "I need these clothes to be cool", while cool people don't say "go buy these clothes or you won't be cool.")

I mean... maybe you all just live in places filled with people who are that shallow, but besides girls not wanting to wear their homecoming/prom dress a second time to a function at the same school, I've literally never had clothes be a concern, despite how much people wear whatever they want.

[Knaight]

Most everyone must then.

Most of us know plenty of people. If you know 1000 people, you can have 10 friends even if 99% of people aren't worth the time it takes to associate with them. 99% seems very high.

[druid91]

Again... I've literally never met somebody who cared that much about clothes, to the point they felt ostracized for not having cool clothes. I mean, I am mostly convinced it's mostly just a media exaggeration and those that say "You need these clothes to hang out with these guys" are the ones buying the clothes to fit in, not the group in question (meaning people say "I need these clothes to be cool", while cool people don't say "go buy these clothes or you won't be cool.")

I mean... maybe you all just live in places filled with people who are that shallow, but besides girls not wanting to wear their homecoming/prom dress a second time to a function at the same school, I've literally never had clothes be a concern, despite how much people wear whatever they want.

Agreed, I hung out with the goth/emo stereotypical grouping. I didn't dress like them, In fact the only thing we really had in common as a group was the slightly dark sense of humor and a tendency to read. There might have been groups that cared about clothes, but if there were I didn't notice.

Uniforms just fail, the only way I see them helping is as an Identification. and that only helps in certain situations, My sisters pre-school for example, they have a shirt, that they only wear if they are going on a field trip.