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jpreem
2010-10-05, 04:44 AM
One thing i don't like about DD games is that quite often you come to a situation like that.
A:I want a character who can do a things X and Y.
B: Well then you have to take classA/ClassB/PrcC feats D and E and skill trick F.
Look at the Books of Compiled Stuff This and That, Heroes of Obscurity and 1995 january Dragon magazine.

I would like to know more about game systems where the stuff would go more like this.

A:I want a character who can do a things X and Y.
B: Hmm ok. You are a guy/girl/robot/eldritch abomination who does X and Y :smallbiggrin:

What systems should i look into.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-05, 04:49 AM
definitely LARPing

cheezewizz2000
2010-10-05, 04:59 AM
definitely LARPing

Dependant on the system. In some systems, if you can't swordfight worth a dang, you'll be trounced by people who can regardless of the fact that you're calling sixteens with every hit. With a lot of LARPs, you're limited by what you as a player can do. IM(not very)HO it makes immersion a lot easier for other people if you CAN actually sneak up behind someone and take them out, rather than just holding up a hand with a bit of day-glow cloth wrapped around it to declare to the world "I'm hiding, so you have to pretend I'm not here". I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but as a LARPer I respect people who can play characters within their own limitations and still be awesome.

Example: In Maelstrom (a UK system) there was a chatacter called "Bamboo" who was effectively a ninja dressed all in white. It seems stupid, untill you realise that the vast majority of tents are made of white canvass; so many people never saw him coming until it was too late...

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-05, 05:08 AM
yeah i guess so but if your LARPing your swordfighting skills improve dramatically so the "Goblin" who trounced you a month ago with superior swordskills becomes the "Orc" you draw against again and again

kamikasei
2010-10-05, 05:25 AM
LARPing seems completely orthogonal to what the OP's asking.

There are a few systems where that's possible, OP. The one I'm familiar with is Mutants & Masterminds, a superhero system easily adapted to a variety of games. It's d20 based so you have a "level" that just caps some modifiers so everyone has a common baseline for attack/defense/damage/saves etc., but your abilities are bought from a pool of points where anything can be traded out for anything else.

GURPS is similar (in that it's point buy) though, from what I understand, considerably more fiddly.

A system like Exalted kind of has classes (which type of Exalt you are, and which caste of that type, makes some things cheaper/more expensive and gives some unique abilities) but is still essentially point buy.

(edit: World of Darkness would be much the same AFAIK.)

Then there are systems like FUDGE, Fate, or Risus where there are just fewer rules in general and your character consists of just a few key traits.

Note that lacking classes or levels does not mean rules-light. You may still need to do a lot of number-crunching to get the character you want. You just may have fewer hoops to jump through en route.

Halaster
2010-10-05, 05:28 AM
GURPS. The point-buy system. You want something, the GM allows it, you pay the points, write it down on your character sheet, done. The catch is, of course, that all flavor decisions must be made by the GM, which can be a lot of work.

If you don't want to give up classes and levels altogether, Rolemaster might work for you. All classes can learn (almost) all things, including magic, but pay ever higher costs the farther away from their usual business these things are. Rolemaster does have a lot less special abilities, though, most things are handled by skills.

J.Gellert
2010-10-05, 05:29 AM
Mutants & Masterminds

"I want a character who can do X and Y."
"Great, you can do it (but X and Y must be within campaign power limits*)"

Except you can play with unlimited points and no campaign power level limits, if your DM feels generous like that.

Psyx
2010-10-05, 05:32 AM
Pretty much everything except d20 and 4e these days doesn't have levels. Levels are a frankly appalling and restrictive idea that most of the industry discarded many, many years ago.

Seriously: Anything that's not d20 would be a good start. There are literally too many systems to list.
What genre were you looking for?

jpreem
2010-10-05, 05:57 AM
I have heard a great deal about GURPS it quite sounds like the thing for me.
Or some other kind of point based system.
I guess it kind of needs a lot of thought from GM to set the point price for different abilities. Heh i geuss you can really mess up right there but well DD classes feats etc. are definetly not a guarantee not to mess up characters also.

If I'd like to try to do some GM-ing for a short low-powered campaing (generic fantasy stuff maybe) to test the system - then what kind of materials do I need for GURPS.

Halaster
2010-10-05, 06:17 AM
You definitely need the Basic Set for the 4th edition (Characters book and Campaigns book. Anything else is up to you. All abilities are already priced, although you can tweak the costs, e. g. by limiting the ability to certain situations (only at night etc.). As far as I'm concerned, those two books contain all you need for most campaigns, and allow you to deduce the rest. There is, IIRC a Fantasy sourcebook, that gives you templates for fantasy stuff. For example, if you have the basic set, point costs for being an elf would have to be calculated by the GM (from the cost of, say, low-light vision, unaging, less sleep, resistance to disease and charm effects, dex bonus, health penalty), and so on for all other races, specialist training packages and so on. The sourcebook should give you most of these, plus expanded equipment lists, spell lists and so on.

Knaight
2010-10-05, 06:18 AM
I have heard a great deal about GURPS it quite sounds like the thing for me.
Or some other kind of point based system.
I guess it kind of needs a lot of thought from GM to set the point price for different abilities. Heh i geuss you can really mess up right there but well DD classes feats etc. are definetly not a guarantee not to mess up characters also.

If I'd like to try to do some GM-ing for a short low-powered campaing (generic fantasy stuff maybe) to test the system - then what kind of materials do I need for GURPS.

GURPS has the point costs set already, with lots and lots of abilities listed. If you want something lighter, but with all the abilities, try Fate, or just Fudge, with Aspects and Stunts swiped. Fate and Fudge are both free, so it can't hurt to try them.

The Rose Dragon
2010-10-05, 07:01 AM
GURPS is a great game, with only one disadvantage I can think of: it is a very dry read. I have bought four books so far, and none of them really made me go "Hey, I should use this in a game" rather than "when are we gonna get to the good parts?". However, if you can get past the rather clinical writing style of the books, it should serve you well (it's also kind of expensive, but you don't really need more than two books for anything other than fluff).

Instead, however, I will suggest Unisystem, the most awesome game ever created by man (except possibly for M&M, but that's just because it has superheroes). It is not as flexible as M&M or GURPS, but it is much more fun to read than the latter, and handles most things the former can and then some (it can't handle superhero-level games, but that's what M&M is for).

horngeek
2010-10-05, 07:02 AM
I'm going to suggest Exalted.

...then again, I always suggest Exalted. :smalltongue:

Dogmantra
2010-10-05, 07:24 AM
Risus.

It is the best. You literally say "I want to do X, Y and Z". Then that's your character sheet.

Person_Man
2010-10-05, 08:39 AM
Homebrew. If you want a character who does something, write that character.

Tael
2010-10-05, 09:12 AM
GURPS GURPS GURPS! My favorite system evar! Lite is available online for free.

Dizlag
2010-10-05, 09:18 AM
Savage Worlds has the "advancement" concept where you'll get new edges (= feats) to do better things and some of them required a higher rank (= 4 levels). Though it has this leveling-like system, it is a classless system. The edges and skills you choose allow you to create the character you want. During your turn you describe all of the "actions" you'll be taking and you can roll to see if you're successful. It's a great system and refreshing change from D&D.

Dizlag

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-05, 09:20 AM
Shadowrun and World of Darkness are both pretty open-ended. Scion is slightly less so, but still comes highly recommended. GURPS is all it's advertised to be and more. Freeform play by post can work out great if you have a good group.

Tyrrell
2010-10-05, 09:38 AM
The criteria of the original poster are very easy to meet. It still leaves us with everything from Ars Magica to secret of Ziran to recommend to him. For an appropriate recommendation we'll need more of your likes and dislikes.

For a recommendation with insufficient information I'll have to plug Ars Magica Fifth edition. It's the best game ever created for having great game sessions, rewarding stories, and fascinating characters. (People who have different opinions are clearly suffering from having tastes and preferences different from my tastes and preferences, I pity their disadvantaged circumstances.:smalltongue:)

Kiero
2010-10-05, 09:56 AM
How long is a piece of string? There are countless systems out there that aren't class/level based, hundreds are even free (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/fulllist.html).

If you want specific recommendations, FATE 3.0 comes in a number of recent incarnations doing different things; Legends of Anglerre (fantasy), Dresden Files (urban/contemporary fantasy), Starblazer Adventures (space opera), Diaspora (hard sci-fi).

Cinematic Unisystem has a number of variations, Angel, Ghosts of Albion and Armies of Darkness.

For ultra-lite, there's Wushu, Risus, There Is No Spoon, InSpectres, The Pool, Warrior, Rogue and Mage and many others.

mabriss lethe
2010-10-05, 10:14 AM
Hollow Earth Expedition is full of Old School pulp goodness.

Cthulhutech: Eldritch horror and Big F'ing Robots, What more could you want?

Artanis
2010-10-05, 11:08 AM
BESM is worth mentioning. Not only do you say, "I can do X," but you also say, "and this is exactly what it looks like when I do X" right on the character sheet.

Tengu_temp
2010-10-05, 11:59 AM
Risus.

It is the best. You literally say "I want to do X, Y and Z". Then that's your character sheet.

Risus is a fun little game, but it's far too simplistic to work well for a more serious game. Its main purpose are comedy campaigns.

Particle_Man
2010-10-05, 12:19 PM
There are a few systems where that's possible, OP. The one I'm familiar with is Mutants & Masterminds, a superhero system easily adapted to a variety of games. It's d20 based so you have a "level" that just caps some modifiers so everyone has a common baseline for attack/defense/damage/saves etc., but your abilities are bought from a pool of points where anything can be traded out for anything else.



Pretty much everything except d20 and 4e these days doesn't have levels. Levels are a frankly appalling and restrictive idea that most of the industry discarded many, many years ago.

Seriously: Anything that's not d20 would be a good start. There are literally too many systems to list.
What genre were you looking for?

:smallsmile:

Dogmantra
2010-10-05, 12:27 PM
Risus is a fun little game, but it's far too simplistic to work well for a more serious game. Its main purpose are comedy campaigns.

Your Mileage May Vary. Some people find it easier to get on with a serious game and into character when they literally only have to worry about four adjectives and a number next to 'em. Rolling lots of different dice can be kind of jarring.

kamikasei
2010-10-05, 01:23 PM
Risus is a fun little game, but it's far too simplistic to work well for a more serious game. Its main purpose are comedy campaigns.
Although I don't know the specifics of Risis versus other rules-light games (it was designed for comedy, so maybe what rules there are lend themselves to that much more readily than to other things), I don't think simply being rules-light or "simplistic" disqualifies a system from serious games.

And come to think of comedy, an omission for which I cannot forgive myself: Maid RPG! All the rules you need can be described in a few minutes and you barely need the book beyond the tables for random chargen.

Caliphbubba
2010-10-05, 01:30 PM
If you're not afraid of lots of Math in your character creation Champions
can be a great "I want to be able to do X and Y, so I make a character that can do X and Y".

It's a fairly involved character creation process, but I've had tons of fun playing it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_(role-playing_game)

Tyndmyr
2010-10-05, 01:43 PM
7th Sea is great for this.

You have nationality, which plays a part in character creation. Certain nationalities have specific cultures and advantages they are more likely to have. However, the big one is that sorcery is in the blood.

So, you pick a nationality(or two) you like for your heritage. This is roughly the only uncustomizable thing you do. You can then pick up traits that are roughly feat equivalent(though widely varying in cost and power), different schools of combat, traits, skills, etc.

It's extremely open ended.

The Big Dice
2010-10-05, 04:09 PM
7th Sea is great for this.

You have nationality, which plays a part in character creation. Certain nationalities have specific cultures and advantages they are more likely to have. However, the big one is that sorcery is in the blood.

So, you pick a nationality(or two) you like for your heritage. This is roughly the only uncustomizable thing you do. You can then pick up traits that are roughly feat equivalent(though widely varying in cost and power), different schools of combat, traits, skills, etc.

It's extremely open ended.

It also suffers from the same problem as L5R, the game that gave rise to the system 7th Sea uses. That is, schools are percieved as being functionally the same as classes. Familes and clans (or nations in 7th Sea) mix that up a little, but in general, whatever School your character has is seen as it's class.

One slightly odd thing about the R&K family of games is the way they'e a bit like D20 with classes and levels, except they are Schools and Ranks and don't quite work the same way as class based games do. The other thing is that they are all abot Skills, Advantages, Disadvatages and Traits. In exactly the same way the many point buy games are.

Lord Raziere
2010-10-05, 06:50 PM
Risus is a fun little game, but it's far too simplistic to work well for a more serious game. Its main purpose are comedy campaigns.

I have played on at least two forums that were basically freeform with a bunch of agreed upon rules that balanced out everything, and they were both serious and they worked. Unless you got your own experiences, my memory says your wrong.

Savannah
2010-10-05, 08:09 PM
If you want horror, I like Call of Cthulhu (and I'm planning to use it for a non-Lovecraftian horror game, so you can adapt it). Level-less - you improve abilities based on using them. Almost class-less - you get part of your skills from your background, so that's a class to some extent. But you have personal skills as well, so you could do x & z with your background and y with your personal skills, or you could make your own background with x, y & z. Of course, you are assumed to be humans investigating Things That Should Not Be, so it's not good if you want to play non-humans or you want to be winning lots of fights. There is a starter guide available online.

Knaight
2010-10-05, 08:33 PM
Forget Call of Cthulu, get Trail of Cthulu, or better yet Dread. Which is free, though you are going to need a Jenga tower.

WalkingTarget
2010-10-05, 08:34 PM
If you want horror, I like Call of Cthulhu (and I'm planning to use it for a non-Lovecraftian horror game, so you can adapt it). Level-less - you improve abilities based on using them. Almost class-less - you get part of your skills from your background, so that's a class to some extent. But you have personal skills as well, so you could do x & z with your background and y with your personal skills, or you could make your own background with x, y & z. Of course, you are assumed to be humans investigating Things That Should Not Be, so it's not good if you want to play non-humans or you want to be winning lots of fights. There is a starter guide available online.

The underlying system is Chaosium's Basic Role-Playing. To give a little more detail on CoC, you choose what your character's profession is at char-gen and that determines which skills you can spend one set of skill points on. You also get a pool of points for "personal interest" that you can put anywhere. I think the generic BRP method may get rid of the idea of "profession skills" entirely and just put everything into the "personal" pool.

Another interesting thing is that if you want to start the game by saying that your character is, for example, one of the top physicists in the world you can pretty much do that (put >90% in physics and high scores in things like math or astronomy and you're pretty much there). There isn't a whole lot of "advancement" as seen in other games. There's some, but the better you get at a skill the harder it becomes to improve it further. Information is the resource you accumulate over time.

There's also the assumption that you're pretty much a normal person, though. CoC has magic to learn, but you start and remain pretty fragile throughout. Most people start with ~12 HP and don't get more easily, a standard handgun does 1d10 damage, some weapons (including firearms) do double damage on a good roll, and you're dead 1 round after you hit 0 HP unless somebody makes a successful first aid or medicine check on you during that round).

abadguy
2010-10-05, 09:21 PM
I like the system Fallout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_%28video_game%29) uses (which is similar to GURPS). You start at somewhat of a baseline and you level up in the skills you choose and those skills pretty much define what kind of character you are e.g sneaky, invest points in stealth. Punchy, invest points in unarmed combat.

The PnP version is here:
http://falloutpnp.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-05, 10:12 PM
1. Play GURPs.
2. Run into powergamer.
3. ???
4. The fantasy universe is destroyed.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-06, 12:38 AM
1. Play GURPs.
2. Run into PCs.
3. Chaos and Destruction (formerly known as ???)
4. The fantasy multiverse is destroyed.

fixed it for you :smallbiggrin:

Gametime
2010-10-06, 12:46 AM
I've heard good things about The Riddle of Steel (http://www.driftwoodpublishing.com/), though I can't speak from personal experience. You can find the books on Amazon, although prices vary from "reasonable" to "outrageous" since it's out of print.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-06, 03:20 AM
Dark Heresy. Only a heretic would choose a different gaming system over aiding the God Emperor. You're not a heretic are you?

Rasman
2010-10-06, 05:36 AM
I didn't read though all the posts, but Spelljammer and Savage Worlds are worth looking at if you want a D&Desque world with the flexibility you're looking for.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-10-06, 06:24 AM
You're not a heretic are you?

uum no >_>

Psyx
2010-10-06, 07:16 AM
Dark Heresy. Only a heretic would choose a different gaming system over aiding the God Emperor. You're not a heretic are you?

It's a better horror game than CoC, granted. But it is class and level based, still. although in a good way, at least.

Lord Loss
2010-10-06, 07:44 AM
I created a system of my own that's quite like this. Albeit it's made for something along the lines of Delta Green (it's similar). Instead of classes and levels you choose a Profession and then choose five Specializations. You can also cross-spec (it costs an extra spec) to choose specs from two seperate proficiencies.

We currently have, in our party:

An Exorcist that has abilities that heal his teammates and deal extra damage to supernatural threats.

Two Infiltrators, one that snipes and one that stealths/uses knives.

One Marine that has a heavy focus on dual-wielding.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but this allows a higher degree of customization without sacrificing simplicity. The Professions are: Marine, Infiltrator, Exorcist, Investigator, Psychic and Witch Doctor. I'm going to make a few others soon.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-06, 12:14 PM
It's a better horror game than CoC, granted. But it is class and level based, still. although in a good way, at least.

It's a weird sort of class/level hybrid I'd say since spending xp is a good thing in Dark Heresy.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-06, 12:23 PM
Dark Heresy. Only a heretic would choose a different gaming system over aiding the God Emperor. You're not a heretic are you?

Friend computer notes that this knowledge is classified orange, which is above your rated classification, citizen. Please report to the nearest citizen incinerator for processing.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-06, 12:48 PM
It also suffers from the same problem as L5R, the game that gave rise to the system 7th Sea uses. That is, schools are percieved as being functionally the same as classes. Familes and clans (or nations in 7th Sea) mix that up a little, but in general, whatever School your character has is seen as it's class.

One slightly odd thing about the R&K family of games is the way they'e a bit like D20 with classes and levels, except they are Schools and Ranks and don't quite work the same way as class based games do. The other thing is that they are all abot Skills, Advantages, Disadvatages and Traits. In exactly the same way the many point buy games are.

Schools differ from classes, though. You don't have to have schools at all, IIRC(though you get a basic set of skills). You can have any number of schools up to the maximum you can afford. They do not have levels, though they may give bonuses, or provide accesses to more skills(which in themselves, give bonuses). However, this means that equally pointed heros may range from 0-many schools known. This is not very similar to classes at all.

It's really just point buy, with certain things being associated to each other, and the school bonuses merely acting as a flexible form of prereqs to the skills.

The Big Dice
2010-10-06, 09:43 PM
Schools differ from classes, though. You don't have to have schools at all, IIRC(though you get a basic set of skills). You can have any number of schools up to the maximum you can afford. They do not have levels, though they may give bonuses, or provide accesses to more skills(which in themselves, give bonuses). However, this means that equally pointed heros may range from 0-many schools known. This is not very similar to classes at all.

It's really just point buy, with certain things being associated to each other, and the school bonuses merely acting as a flexible form of prereqs to the skills.

I have to admit, I'm far, far more familliar with L5R than I am with 7 Seas.

In fact I'd go as far as to say my specialist subject in gaming is probably L5R. It's certainly the game I've played the most over the past 15 years. And it's one of the few I've moved through editions with.

But yes, Schools are subtly different from classes in some respects. They are more flexible for one thing, and they don't tie you in to a certain style of play. Though they heavily guide and influence the choices you'll make.

Certainly, in L5R it's possible to play characters without Schools. BUt it's really not worth the bonus Character Points you get from it. You lose out the free Trait increase, but don't get as many points as it would have cost to buy it, and you lose out on the special abilities that Techniques give.