Identify This Druid 3.5

[HMS Invincible]

There's a druid in my party who has Vow of Poverty, can permanently change into lion form at will, can replace his spells with Regen X and can deal damage to evil creatures by touching them. We are all level 4. What is his legal build?
Oh, and judge how strong he is by his choices.

PS. There's a centaur Fighter in our group, lols.

[boj0]

I'm not %100 sure what you're asking for, but I'll bite; Talsid?

[Zeofar]

So, what? We're supposed to rebuild this Druid as in how to get those features at that level?

[Diarmuid]

Many characters can damage evil creatures by touching them. Some may touch them with weapons and whatnot. Regen X for spells is a simple feat or ACF I think, nothing too blatant there. Lion form, sounds like PHB2 shapeshift variant, again nothing out of the norm.

What exactly is it you're looking for here? Is this a discussion of optimizers vs non-optimizers?

[Urpriest]

Regen X for spells is a simple feat or ACF I think, nothing too blatant there.

Really? Fast Healing X is not too tricky, but Regen? Not sure how that would be put together.

Also, it sounds like Touch of Golden Ice is involved.

[Grynning]

Given the reference to centaurs, I think he's saying the guy is playing as Aslan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan).

[subject42]

The regen thing is the "Spontaneous Regeneration" variant from PHB2 (I think). You lose the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally, but you gain the ability to cast a weaker version of vigor.

The lion thing sounds a lot like the shapeshift variant. It gives you a weaker version of wild shape that you can use at will.

The touch damage might be touch of golden ice, or something to that effect. It's a feat from BoED.

[InkEyes]

I have no idea what you want. Are you trying to figure out his legal build? He's a druid with the shapeshift variant from the PHB II. I suppose he's going for a Talisid theme. He won't be able to enter the Lion of Talisid prestige class, however, because the shapeshift variant removes his animal companion, and having one is an entry requirement.

Vow of Poverty is a weak feat, but druids suffer the least from it. The shapeshift variant removes two of the most powerful class features of the druid (wild shape and the animal companion) for a watered-down at-will shapechange. It's a common way to intentionally nerf the druid. As willing choices they're sub-par. It would probably drop the druid 1/2 to a full tier depending on his spell choices.

It's worth noting that he'll probably never drop below tier 2 since the druid's spell list is just that gratuitous.

[Greenish]

The touch damage might be touch of golden ice, or something to that effect. It's a feat from BoED.Sounds likely, what with VoP and all.

As for how strong his choices make him? Well, VoP is touch and go. Having full WBL and spending it well might be better, but if either wealth or options to spend it are limited, VoP is decent (for a druid).

Shapeshift variant is a blatant nerf compared to normal druid.

Spontaneous SNA is more versatile and useful than spontaneous healing spells.

He can still be very strong.

[HMS Invincible]

I wanted to know his legal build, I must have forgotten to type that part in. I told him Vow of Poverty was bad, but he didn't believe me. On the positive side, he's never unarmed...and it's really helpful at the low levels before we get any treasure. Thanks for all this info.

Why is the shapechange at will weaker than original shapechange?

[Greenish]

Why is the shapechange at will weaker than original shapechange?It's way weaker than wildshape, which could get you all kinds of cool high strength pouncers and grapplers (and crawlers and flyers).

Also, loses Animal Companion.

[Fax Celestis]

There's a druid in my party who has Vow of Poverty, can permanently change into lion form at will, can replace his spells with Regen X and can deal damage to evil creatures by touching them. We are all level 4. What is his legal build?

He is an exalted character, Druid 4, using both PHB-II alternative class features and possibly one of the ones from the Eberron book.

The Shapeshift ACF is very limited, and you can't cast spells while using it, unlike Wildshape's open-endedness and capacity to cast spells with a feat.

[Prime32]

Why is the shapechange at will weaker than original shapechange?Shapechange is a 9th-level spell which gives you all the abilities of the most powerful creatures in the game, and lets you switch between them at will.

Shapeshift lets you gain buffs to a few stats from a limited list.

EDIT: If you meant wildshape, that ability gives you far more options. It also replaces your physical stats with those of the animal instead of increasing them, so the druid is free to play a hyper-wise weakling with spells almost impossible to resist. Plus you can cast spells in wildshape.

[InkEyes]

Why is the shapechange at will weaker than original shapechange?

Like others have said, the shapeshift variant is much more limited. If functions pretty similar to the WoW or 4e version; you get generic forms every few levels that are basically "fast medium carnivore," "bird form," "large carnivore," etc. You can pick what form you turn into, but there's no mechanical difference between a cougar and a wolf using this variant. They have pre-set attacks and damage die and you gain feats you can use in those forms, but you don't get all the insane abilities and the enormous boosts to your physical scores, AC, and what-have-you that shapechange and other polymorph spells grant with each new form.

[Leon]

Shapeshift - While the majority of this board will howl that its a nerf, it is a simpler and more balanced combat form for the Druid to use and has none of the cheese that can evolve from interactions with a Feat and a stupidly large selection of animals.

[WeeFreeMen]

While I don't wish to de-rail the thread..
It must be said,
you told the player that VoP was bad, him being a druid however makes him the only class that is "ok" to have. Nothing more, nothing less; but by the sounds of it if you got a Centaur warrior (with RHD) the party isn't optimized to begin with.

And while I do agree, better things could have been taken than VoP it really isnt Horribad for a druid, him ditching Wild Shape however does rank worse than his VoP choice. Also, the lack of Animal companion is kinda.. bland.

Anyway, yeah. Thats my 2cents.

[Diarmuid]

Well, you dont know if the Shapeshift Variant was mandated by the DM for chargen, so I would say hold off on criticizing the druid player's choices for now. I've seen many new games with that stipulation.

[ImperiousLeader]

I'll confess ... despite being a power gamer and a big fan of wildshape ... I really like the Shapeshift Druid variant. I like that it's at-will from first level and it's easier to use. I just wish there was more support (feats with other forms, like a mousy scout form or aquatic forms) for that option.

[Greenish]

Shapeshift - While the majority of this board will howl that its a nerf, it is a simpler and more balanced combat form for the Druid to use and has none of the cheese that can evolve from interactions with a Feat and a stupidly large selection of animals.I don't know why you portray a "majority" "howling" about it, when you're saying the very same thing.

[Leon]

I don't know why you portray a "majority" "howling" about it, when you're saying the very same thing.

I dont howl that it's a nerf to the class - The howling majority are the ones that cant see past Wildshape and natural spell as the only way to play a druid.

Shapeshift is not a Nerf, its Option and a nice simple way to be a druid and have a animal combat form. Ive played one once it was fun - much better then the lumbering monstrosity that can be wildshape.
But overall i prefer druids that fight in normal form with spells and weapons.

As to the OP: He is Strong - he's a Druid with full druid casting whatever other class features he has or doesnt have are just the icing on the cake.
Aslong as he's having fun and not overshadowing the rest of the group too much you should be fine.

(aside from the Centur which is going to have trouble with ladders and small places)

[Prime32]

I dont howl that it's a nerf to the class - The howling majority are the ones that cant see past Wildshape and natural spell as the only way to play a druid.

Shapeshift is not a Nerf, its Option and a nice simple way to be a druid and have a animal combat form. Ive played one once it was fun - much better then the lumbering monstrosity that can be wildshape.
But overall i prefer druids that fight in normal form with spells and weapons.Shapeshift is plenty popular, but it was never asked "is he having fun". I'm not sure how we could answer that question anyway. :smallconfused: The OP asked us to estimate his power, and wild shape is definitely more powerful than Shapeshift. No one said that was a good thing.

[kamikasei]

Shapeshift - While the majority of this board will howl that its a nerf...
What about those of us who recognize that it is a nerf, at least if mandated by the DM (you might quibble over whether choosing the weaker of two options counts as nerfing yourself), but don't think that's a bad thing? Are we howling?

Personally I'd be happier playing a Shapeshift druid than using Wild Shape specifically because it's less powerful (and simpler!). That doesn't mean it's not a nerf.

[Il_Vec]

Shapeshift is not a Nerf, its Option and a nice simple way to be a druid and have a animal combat form. Ive played one once it was fun - much better then the lumbering monstrosity that can be wildshape.
But overall i prefer druids that fight in normal form with spells and weapons.


It is an Option. One that is less powerful. Therefore, a Nerf. A welcome nerf, seen as the Druid is outrageously imbalanced with most of the other core classes.

[Greenish]

I dont howl that it's a nerf to the class - The howling majority are the ones that cant see past Wildshape and natural spell as the only way to play a druid.If anyone on the thread has claimed that he should have taken wildshape instead, I must've missed it. But maybe the howling hordes are somewhere else. :smallamused:


Shapeshift is not a Nerf, its Option and a nice simple way to be a druid and have a animal combat form. Ive played one once it was fun - much better then the lumbering monstrosity that can be wildshape.No one is saying it's not fun, or that it shouldn't be used (indeed, as noted above, using it is often suggested).

It's also straight out less powerful than the normal druid. It's not even trying to be a subtle about it, what with losing animal companion. So, it's a nerf when DMs use it, and self-nerf when you take it.

Notice, again, that I'm not saying that it's a bad thing.

[ranagrande]

There are some really fun things you can do with it though. I'd like to play a Half-Ogre Shapeshift Druid 8/Psychic Warrior (or maybe War Mind, since it was just a special ingredient :smalltongue:) 10.

Use Ferocious Slayer Form and augmented Expansion to be Colossal sized and use your +16 strength to destroy things. It could be especially fun as a grapple or trip build.

[DanReiv]

Nothing wrong with shapeshift for low level plays, same for healing depending on the group.

Druid aren't that OP. They become OP as they get high level spell, large/lots of HD wildshape and poweful companion.

From 1-6 they aren't that scary. Not everybody play high level, where druids shine.

[Shenanigans]

I won't get involved in the Shapeshift discussion (never used it or seen it used) but if it makes you feel any better, Touch of Golden Ice doesn't scale well; the Save DC stays the same (13 I think) and by the time middle levels are reached, it won't be affecting too many things.

[HMS Invincible]

I won't get involved in the Shapeshift discussion (never used it or seen it used) but if it makes you feel any better, Touch of Golden Ice doesn't scale well; the Save DC stays the same (13 I think) and by the time middle levels are reached, it won't be affecting too many things.

But that's a bad thing. What's the point of a feat if it only works on low level mooks and civilians?

I just found out that our unarmored half orc fighter was actually a monk. He wants to multiclass into either barbarian or rogue. He came to our group after he got kicked out of a Dark Heresy campaign. I wonder how long he'll last before getting frustrated and leaving.

If none of the class differences show up til high level, then all the unoptimized characters will be fine. Our point buys are so low, so it's definitely a low power game. (25-28) I only have a 16 in int and a 12 in dex before racials. Everything else is 8, 10, or 11.

Question, any of you know the source material that gives you religious based items? Like I'm a elf who worships Correlion so I got a bow, as a wizard... It's only a +1 mighty composite longbow for now, but it's suppose to get bonuses vs drow and frost or something when I take a religious feat. Everyone got a different item based upon their god. They are unique, and each god comes with 2 different items. It won't be useful to me, but I was curious if these items were any good to everybody else. Like say, a druid with vow. The DM ruled that the relics were valueless so it didn't break vop.

[Leon]

No one is howling here atm, but have done on other druid threads and will in the future.

You can can it a nerf if you want but its Still a valid option for people to consider regardless of what you think of its power level.

As i said a Druid with its spell casting is all you need the rest is just icing, sometimes the cake is better without it.

[Shenanigans]

But that's a bad thing. What's the point of a feat if it only works on low level mooks and civilians?

I just found out that our unarmored half orc fighter was actually a monk. He wants to multiclass into either barbarian or rogue. He came to our group after he got kicked out of a Dark Heresy campaign. I wonder how long he'll last before getting frustrated and leaving.

If none of the class differences show up til high level, then all the unoptimized characters will be fine. Our point buys are so low, so it's definitely a low power game. (25-28) I only have a 16 in int and a 12 in dex before racials. Everything else is 8, 10, or 11.

Question, any of you know the source material that gives you religious based items? Like I'm a elf who worships Correlion so I got a bow, as a wizard... It's only a +1 mighty composite longbow for now, but it's suppose to get bonuses vs drow and frost or something when I take a religious feat. Everyone got a different item based upon their god. They are unique, and each god comes with 2 different items. It won't be useful to me, but I was curious if these items were any good to everybody else. Like say, a druid with vow. The DM ruled that the relics were valueless so it didn't break vop.
The feat you're looking for is True Believer, from Complete Divine.

As far as Touch of Golden Ice, it doesn't become completely useless in combat until higher levels. It is still nice for roleplaying situations. ("Hmmm...is he evil? I'll shake his hand...")

Don't forget, either, that it is useless versus neutral enemies, such as most animals, constructs, and nearly anything without intelligence.

[Greenish]

You can can it a nerf if you want but its Still a valid option for people to consider regardless of what you think of its power level.Of course it's a valid option, that's what I've been saying all along! :smallfurious:

[kamikasei]

No one is howling here atm, but have done on other druid threads and will in the future.
It's misleading to include swipes at hypothetical behaviour taking place elsewhere with other people as part of your response to us, here, now. It makes it look like you're straw-manning us.

You can can it a nerf if you want but its Still a valid option for people to consider regardless of what you think of its power level.

As i said a Druid with its spell casting is all you need the rest is just icing, sometimes the cake is better without it.
I think you may be mistakenly interpreting "nerf" as an unqualified criticism. Something can be a nerf and also be needed and good.

The OP asked us to "...judge how strong he is by his choices" - which kind of question also includes an overtone of "is this weird character going to break the game?". Several answers took the form "all right, not game-breaking by any means, less powerful than he would have been as a vanilla druid". You're coming off as though defending yourself against criticisms not being made or refuting claims no one's advancing.

Question, any of you know the source material that gives you religious based items? Like I'm a elf who worships Correlion so I got a bow, as a wizard... It's only a +1 mighty composite longbow for now, but it's suppose to get bonuses vs drow and frost or something when I take a religious feat. Everyone got a different item based upon their god. They are unique, and each god comes with 2 different items. It won't be useful to me, but I was curious if these items were any good to everybody else. Like say, a druid with vow. The DM ruled that the relics were valueless so it didn't break vop.
Those would be coming from the Magic Item Compendium, I think. Unless, of course, your DM has refluffed something else, or homebrewed something.