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View Full Version : Can you use two natural weapons in a grapple?



ericgrau
2010-10-05, 08:43 PM
I assumed since you can't fight with two weapons, then you probably can't use each hand to make a claw attack either. But what about a bite? And I googled another forum where they said you could use all your natural attacks, as long as you don't use a second manufactured weapon, so now I'm more confused. I mean how do you do that while holding on to the other guy?

My DM said I could use both claws in a grapple but not rend. That seems like a fair balance between the two and I'll probably stick with it even if the rules say I can rend. I'm more wondering if I should even get that much or if I should have just 1 claw and 1 bite, for example.

Eldariel
2010-10-05, 08:52 PM
I assumed since you can't fight with two weapons, then you probably can't use each hand to make a claw attack either. But what about a bite? And I googled another forum where they said you could use all your natural attacks, as long as you don't use a second manufactured weapon, so now I'm more confused. I mean how do you do that while holding on to the other guy?

My DM said I could use both claws in a grapple but not rend. That seems like a fair balance between the two and I'll probably stick with it even if the rules say I can rend. I'm more wondering if I should even get that much or if I should have just 1 claw and 1 bite, for example.

It depends on how you're conducting the Grapple. If you are conducting it normally, you're limited to one natural weapon (though some creatures mention an exception in their description, which takes precedence). If you have Rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake), those come as free bonuses. If you're using Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) and conducting the grapple with just the weapon that initiated the grapple (as per Improved Grab-rules), you're free to use your other weapons as you see fit.

But normally, you're limited to one natural weapon in grapple and creatures generally use their primary. That said, many creatures with claws tend to have Rakes to account for this. And Rend should apply normally if you somehow attack with both weapons; Rend's trigger is only dependent over whether or not you hit with both claws. If you somehow hit with both in grapple, then yeah, you should get Rend just fine.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one of the RAW funkiness thingies again; if you'd have iteratives from BAB, the "attack in grapple" function (and "deal damage"-function which deals Natural Weapon-damage in case of Improved Grab) only uses one of those, so theoretically nothing stops you from replacing the pseudo-iterative with an attack with a different natural weapon (as the only limitation in natural weapons is you being only able to attack once per turn). Using the "Deal damage"-function you could even deal damage with the same limb multiple times per turn O.o

Though I guess you could read the "Creatures don’t receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."-clause as counteracting that; that is, using any natural weapons at all during a grapple would forfeit the iteratives. Still, a funky little aspect of the rules; grapple always makes things interesting. :smallwink:

ericgrau
2010-10-05, 09:14 PM
So does that all mean...

claw/claw/rend/bite => claw/claw/rend

or

claw/claw/rend/bite => claw/bite

or

claw/claw/rend/bite => claw?

EDIT: Oh, the rake rules seem to indicate it's the first one or the last one. It's the last one I think based on the way it was clarified? What's with the rules only clarifying things in entirely different sections?

Eldariel
2010-10-05, 09:16 PM
So does that all mean...

claw/claw/rend/bite => claw/claw/rend

or

claw/claw/rend/bite => claw/bite

or

claw/claw/rend/bite => claw?

Assuming there are no intervening abilities and we use the sensible reading for natural weapons (that you can't wiggle extra attack actions from BAB through grapple), the last of them; claw/claw/rend/bite => claw. Assuming Rend triggers only off two attacks hitting for this creature; there are different Rend-triggers.

EDIT: Mind, this is RAW and I don't care much for it. But if you want to run things by RAW, that's how it works.

ericgrau
2010-10-05, 09:18 PM
Thanks, that makes sense, and I got obscure RAW clarification too. I'll play it that way. As a half-troll my rend trigger is hitting with both claws, so I'm out of luck there.