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View Full Version : Guns 3.5, how do you shoot them around?



TechnOkami
2010-10-05, 10:56 PM
Basically, what d20 system has the best and balanced use of guns as weapons available to PC's?

Lhurgyof
2010-10-06, 07:33 AM
Probably D20 Modern.

Lord Loss
2010-10-06, 07:35 AM
Probably D20 Modern.

Seconded. Although, If you're not willing to buy a book for this, someone (I think it was Monte Cooke) made some nice D&D weaponry which all feel in place in a steampunk game (they're fantasy-flavored guns)

Rising Phoenix
2010-10-06, 07:37 AM
Seconded. Although, If you're not willing to buy a book for this, someone (I think it was Monte Cooke) made some nice D&D weaponry which all feel in place in a steampunk game (they're fantasy-flavored guns)

Here ya go:

http://www.montecook.com/images/Technology.pdf

Am using them in my current campaign. They're alright.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-06, 08:03 AM
Warcraft d20 or Star wars Saga edition.

Deth Muncher
2010-10-06, 08:06 AM
With this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129009&highlight=Deth+Muncher's+Guide+Gunpowder). PM for any specific questions.

Greenish
2010-10-06, 08:21 AM
Seconded. Although, If you're not willing to buy a book for this…consult the d20 modern SRD (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/EquipmentWeapons.php).

http://www.montecook.com/images/Technology.pdf

Am using them in my current campaign. They're alright.The minimum loading time of Move action is a bit meh, for their only advantage over bows is base damage.

Otodetu
2010-10-06, 08:40 AM
While nice and flavourful it should be noted that guns only work during level 1-3, beyond that it is not really a viable option unless it is a really low powered game.
Reason to this is that there is no way to increase your effective damage potential that is not completely blasted out of the water by magic or melee. (Or even bows as those actually have some limited support.)

There are certain obscure builds that can make good use of ranged weapons, but a two-hander and power attack is better anywhere melee can be applied.

Basically at level 6 and beyond it is simply no point in having a firearm if you decide to use one, you will plink harmlessly away at the hp pool of the enemy and sooner or later you will be in melee, or your comerades will, and then you better have precise shot, and that requires point blank shot, and the feat tax to be barely compenent starts to build up fast.

And being sub-optimal is not good role-playing or good flavour.


All inn all this means that inn order for guns to be used you need more than just re-flavoured longbows and repeating crossbows, you need classes or feats that can make a firearm-based warrior viable over the whole spectrum of levels.

Greenish
2010-10-06, 08:55 AM
All inn all this means that inn order for guns to be used you need more than just re-flavoured longbows and repeating crossbows, you need classes or feats that can make a firearm-based warrior viable over the whole spectrum of levels.I like the Black Rain discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505), though it's quite focused on working around the weak points of firearms.

In general though, PA should work on ranged weapons too. It's basically called shot anyway.

Otodetu
2010-10-06, 09:05 AM
I like the Black Rain discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505), though it's quite focused on working around the weak points of firearms.

In general though, PA should work on ranged weapons too. It's basically called shot anyway.

Something like this.

Sort of annoys me when people just link to lists of useless guns. (No offence)

Guess all this can be traced back to how ****ty the fighter is :P and feat balance for ranged combat in core, guess it is limited so as to promote heroic melee fighting.

phlidwsn
2010-10-06, 09:25 AM
Green Ronin's d20 Freeport Companion (http://www.greenronin.com/freeport/2008/02/the_d20_freeport_companion.php) also has a decent section on firearms rules, plus feats & prcs to go with it.

Neon Knight
2010-10-06, 09:26 AM
I wouldn't ever, ever call d20 Modern's gun system the best, or even balanced. It may be personal opinion, but D20 Modern's isn't very good for a couple of reasons. The first and foremost being that there isn't much differentiation between different options; they might as well have just created around 6-10 generic weapon options instead of trying to provide stats for individual weapons. And as for balance... well, they try to pander to realism, balance, and action all at the same time, but end up getting none of the three. There is no reason to take a shotgun over an assault rifle, for example; but, then again, there isn't really a reason to take a M-4 into a breach and clear situation instead of a Barret .50 cal. Giving individual makes and models of weaponry meaningful differentiation is a big task, but giving differentiation characteristics to broad categories is about the least we can ask for.

Of course, in normal DnD 3.5, there is fairly little to differentiate normal, mundane weapons from one another. If that's alright by you, then D20 Modern's way of doing things should be alright. If not.. well, there aren't too many great options, to be honest. Iron Kingdoms is worth a look, and its what I resort to when I go that route.

Spiryt
2010-10-06, 09:42 AM
I wouldn't ever, ever call d20 Modern's gun system the best, or even balanced. It may be personal opinion, but D20 Modern's isn't very good for a couple of reasons. The first and foremost being that there isn't much differentiation between different options; they might as well have just created around 6-10 generic weapon options instead of trying to provide stats for individual weapons. And as for balance... well, they try to pander to realism, balance, and action all at the same time, but end up getting none of the three. There is no reason to take a shotgun over an assault rifle, for example; but, then again, there isn't really a reason to take a M-4 into a breach and clear situation instead of a Barret .50 cal. Giving individual makes and models of weaponry is a big task, but giving differentiation characteristics to broad categories is about the least we can ask for.

Of course, in normal DnD 3.5, there is fairly little to differentiate normal, mundane weapons from one another. If that's alright by you, then D20 Modern's way of doing things should be alright. If not.. well, there aren't too many great options, to be honest. Iron Kingdoms is worth a look, and its what I resort to when I go that route.

Well, you basically.... responded to yourself in the end of the post? :smallwink:

Firearms in d20 modern may be poorly presented and not overly balanced or interesting, but so are 'medievalish' weapons in 3.5. So weapons from Modern can fit just alright, after all, I guess.

Grynning
2010-10-06, 10:21 AM
The trick with guns in any RPG (modern or medieval/renaissance) is making guns unique so that they have a reason to exist, but not making them so realistic as to overshadow other available weaponry, since many RPG players will still want to play sword swingers. This tends to lead to guns being worthless (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GunsAreWorthless). Even in D20 modern you can do more damage in melee than with automatic weaponry.

In other words, well-balanced guns are hard to do, which is why most fantasy RPGs leave them out. The only systems I can think of where ranged weapons work decently well are Star Wars Saga (which has them do between 3d6-3d10 damage for the pistols and rifles, keeping them balanced through low and mid levels) and White Wolf (where your firearm skill contributes to your damage, keeping them balanced with melee).

ErrantX
2010-10-06, 11:06 AM
I'd simply leave them imbalanced; there is a reason why we switched to guns from swords.

Alternatively, simply take the listed damage for the firearm, say, 1d6 for pistols (I'm pretty sure that's what the DMG says, I'm AFB) and triple it. That's what I do.

-X

Greenish
2010-10-06, 11:10 AM
I'd simply leave them imbalanced; there is a reason why we switched to guns from swords.Yes, but there are different aims when making a game. Realism can be a fine aim, but so can balance. If you want people still use swords, there's only so much guns can be better than them before they stop being a viable option.


Alternatively, simply take the listed damage for the firearm, say, 1d6 for pistols (I'm pretty sure that's what the DMG says, I'm AFB) and triple it. That's what I do.In 3.5, that just means that it's good on low, low levels, then quickly becomes useless.

Prime32
2010-10-06, 11:16 AM
If you want early firearms, just use crossbow stats and change the crits to 20/x3.

Bows were more effective than early guns, but harder to use - a few commoners with guns were as effective as a trained archer and in greater supply.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-06, 11:23 AM
Probably D20 Modern.

Agreed. There's a lovely armory book for it too, that is nearly guaranteed to make your resident gun buff either very happy, or very angry(depending on how he agrees with in game interpretations of his favorite toys). I like it in general, and it could be mixed with a D&D game. I've played in such a game before, actually.

I do agree it has some issues(lack of variation, etc), and Im working on a system that handles modern combat better, but that's quite a ways off from complete yet. D20 modern is probably the easiest system to just plug into D&D and roll with, though.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-06, 11:25 AM
Yes, but there are different aims when making a game. Realism can be a fine aim, but so can balance. If you want people still use swords, there's only so much guns can be better than them before they stop being a viable option.
In 3.5, that just means that it's good on low, low levels, then quickly becomes useless.

Not if you include some sort of Quick reload feat so no longer limited to 1/rd shooting.

Grynning
2010-10-06, 11:28 AM
Oh - honorable mention for modern settings - the d20 Call of Cthulhu book actually has the best firearms section I've seen, with extensive and relatively accurate histories given for several different guns, a section about firearm prices and laws and legality for both the 1920's and 1990's eras. A bit a of an obscure source, but a great read if you can get your hands on it. The gun stats themselves work well for that system, as the characters are not heroically strong or tough and will therefore likely die from a gunshot or two.

LibraryOgre
2010-10-06, 11:38 AM
Basically, what d20 system has the best and balanced use of guns as weapons available to PC's?

Pre-d20, but the "A Mighty Fortress" historical sourcebook for 2e had a good system.

ErrantX
2010-10-06, 11:48 AM
In 3.5, that just means that it's good on low, low levels, then quickly becomes useless.


Not if you include some sort of Quick reload feat so no longer limited to 1/rd shooting.

Oh lordy, that's adorable if you keep them to firing once per round :smalltongue: Quick reloads become absolutely necessary, just like Power Attack or Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade depending on fighting style. Necessary feat tax. There are other ways, also Greenish, that improve on damage. Skirmish comes to mind foremost, as standing still in a gunfight is what helped America become what we are today (thanks Britain!). A swift hunter gun fighter build would be quite amazing, in fact. Crossbows suffer the same problem as guns, so the same rules apply. Exotic weapon repeating xbow helps, so if you're spending money on a muzzle loaded at low level, you're spending money on a 6-shooter revolver later. Magic comes in here with speed loading spells (I know IKRPG has them) to make it easier, as well as more and better feats down the chain. Two Weapon Fighting becomes more viable here as well. As mentioned above, The Demented One's Black Rain discipline would help immensely.

Now this makes me want to start a homebrew project on the other board for the community to make a Sublime Gunslinger, feats, etc. Heh, I imagine Roland himself might be honored by it, being our resident Gunslinger in the Playground :smallbiggrin:

-X

Greenish
2010-10-06, 11:56 AM
Oh lordy, that's adorable if you keep them to firing once per round :smalltongue: Quick reloads become absolutely necessary, just like Power Attack or Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade depending on fighting style. Necessary feat tax.I utterly dislike feat taxes, and (the DMG) firearms already have one.

There are other ways, also Greenish, that improve on damage.I know, but you said you just fixed the DMG guns by tripling their base damage (DMG pistol is 1d10, by the way).

Of course, if you homebrew a bunch of feats, they will actually help.

ErrantX
2010-10-06, 12:12 PM
I utterly dislike feat taxes, and (the DMG) firearms already have one.
I know, but you said you just fixed the DMG guns by tripling their base damage (DMG pistol is 1d10, by the way).

Of course, if you homebrew a bunch of feats, they will actually help.

Feat taxes are built into the system, there isn't a way around it. If you wanna two-hand a weapon really well? Power Attack. If you wanna be a good archer? Point Blank Shot and its feat line. Fight with two weapons? Etc.

Specialization in D&D is rewarded so it stands to reason that it's a feat tax for power. Reasonable investments for exceptional payoffs are the key goals here. I was just talking from the perspective of what's actually published. Going beyond that into homebrew and you get into stuff that'll actually fix it.

-X

Greenish
2010-10-06, 12:24 PM
Feat taxes are built into the system, there isn't a way around it. If you wanna two-hand a weapon really well? Power Attack. If you wanna be a good archer? Point Blank Shot and its feat line. Fight with two weapons? Etc.Hmm, two feats to switch from 1d8+Str (Composite longbow) to 3d12 (tripled DMG musket)…

A bit inelegant, but meh.

ErrantX
2010-10-06, 12:32 PM
Hmm, two feats to switch from 1d8+Str (Composite longbow) to 3d12 (tripled DMG musket)…

A bit inelegant, but meh.

True, but a musket will fire once. That longbow can be fired up 5 times.

-X

Greenish
2010-10-06, 12:34 PM
True, but a musket will fire once. That longbow can be fired up 5 times.So even with Rapid Reload, you'd only be fire once per round.

Then we're back to the starting point, where, as I said, they're good at lower levels, then fall to obscurity. :smallamused:

ErrantX
2010-10-06, 12:38 PM
So even with Rapid Reload, you'd only be fire once per round.

Then we're back to the starting point, where, as I said, they're good at lower levels, then fall to obscurity. :smallamused:

It's a nasty, vicious cycle. :smallwink:

The higher damage output keeps them viable until higher level. Personally, I also make guns martial weapons because it's dumb to make them exotic. It takes more work to train a bowman then it does to show someone the first point and click interface.

-X

Greenish
2010-10-06, 12:45 PM
The higher damage output keeps them viable until higher level. Personally, I also make guns martial weapons because it's dumb to make them exotic.Doesn't that just make lower levels even more lethal than they already are? That CR 1/2 warrior mook now does about 20 damage per hit on average, with triple on crits.

ErrantX
2010-10-06, 12:49 PM
Doesn't that just make lower levels even more lethal than they already are? That CR 1/2 warrior mook now does about 20 damage per hit on average, with triple on crits.

Yup. As it turns out, being shot sucks a whole lot. Up the CR based on equipment if its a strong concern, and it's fine.

-X

TechnOkami
2010-10-06, 06:01 PM
If it matters to anyone, I'm trying to find a substitute for the system for guns found in either the Sorcery and Steam book or the DragonMech books, but basically gun fire ignores like 1/2 the AC of a creature or something broken along those lines, and I'm not allowing that much power that early.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-06, 06:09 PM
If it matters to anyone, I'm trying to find a substitute for the system for guns found in either the Sorcery and Steam book or the DragonMech books, but basically gun fire ignores like 1/2 the AC of a creature or something broken along those lines, and I'm not allowing that much power that early.

Wait, but Dragonmech doesn't ignore AC with guns.

TechnOkami
2010-10-06, 06:41 PM
Wait, but Dragonmech doesn't ignore AC with guns.

I said its in either of the books/series, I'm not positive which the system is in though.

LibraryOgre
2010-10-07, 10:51 AM
If it matters to anyone, I'm trying to find a substitute for the system for guns found in either the Sorcery and Steam book or the DragonMech books, but basically gun fire ignores like 1/2 the AC of a creature or something broken along those lines, and I'm not allowing that much power that early.

I'd adapt from 2e's C&T crossbow rules. Allow guns to ignore 5 points of Armor or Natural armor bonus in the first range increment, 3 in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd. I'd also have damage dice explode on certain rolls... A Mighty Fortress used, IIRC, 4, 8 and 12, so a gun that did 1d6 damage would explode if you rolled a 4, and one that did 1d12 would explode on a 4, an 8, or a 12... frighteningly high damage is possible, but you can also roll a 1.

It gives firearms real potential for damage, but also leaves them somewhat weak, especially when you take into account rate of fire... Wikipedia puts the ROF for muskets at 3/minute, which means about 1/3 rounds... two full-round actions to reload will pause anyone who wants to use them.

Greenish
2010-10-07, 10:56 AM
I'd adapt from 2e's C&T crossbow rules. Allow guns to ignore 5 points of Armor or Natural armor bonus in the first range increment, 3 in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd. I'd also have damage dice explode on certain rolls... A Mighty Fortress used, IIRC, 4, 8 and 12, so a gun that did 1d6 damage would explode if you rolled a 4, and one that did 1d12 would explode on a 4, an 8, or a 12... frighteningly high damage is possible, but you can also roll a 1.By "explode", do you mean the gun will be destroyed (possibly harming the wielder)?

LibraryOgre
2010-10-07, 11:18 AM
By "explode", do you mean the gun will be destroyed (possibly harming the wielder)?

Sorry, that was unclear.

No, when dice "explode", you get to roll again and add. So a 1d6 firearm could roll a 4 then roll again, getting 10 total if they rolled a 6 on the second roll. With sufficient luck, you can get really high damage numbers.