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Jolly
2010-10-06, 10:17 AM
...without being a total jerk.

I currently play in a (3.5) game with my wife and several close friends. Aside from myself and the DM, no one has much experience with DnD and tend to make very underpowered characters. Our party has been two clerics, a rogue (me), and a homebrew samurai sort of class. I'm generally our highest damage dealer, even against immune to sneak attack critters. :smallconfused:

I personally kinda like optimizing. I think it's fun, and want to be able to make a really strong character. However, as bad as everyone else is I don't want to outshine them. So I'm thinking of making a character based on making everyone else better, so I can be powerful and make everyone else feel awesome at the same time.

A few tidbits about our game that are relevant. Our DM is an admitted munchkin, and he kinda assumes I am too. This isn't a totally crazy idea (even though it's not accurate) based on a homebrew CON based spontaneous caster character I once made... who was a weretiger. Fly + casting as many empowered orb of acids as I had spell points for + CON based spell pool + 28 CON = nuking a high level paladin npc in a few rounds with basically no damage to myself. I admit, not my best moment. So any idea I present needs to be from an independent source our he'll nerf it back to the stone age just on the assumption I'm trying to scam to be OP.

Generic DnD world, although he's kinda stingy with loot so our WBL is pretty low. He's also very limiting on magic items: we've never even been to a city where magic items worth more than 5k gold are available.

However, pretty much any written source will do. Heck, I could probably just post a homebrew on DnD wiki, not tell him it was from me, and he'd take it mostly as is. However, I don't have many splatbooks aside from Spell Compendium. I am looking to buy a few though, so suggestions on books to get are good as well.

The other players aren't idiots, they're just not good at / interested in investing time learning to optimize.


I feel like the inevitable result of this question will be "play a batman wizard!" and I admit it's tempting. However, I just hate hate hate Vancian casting (specifically the prepared aspect) and I always have. I've thought of going Focused Specialist and just pretending to be a sorcerer who can change his spell list, but I just have a mental hangup about wizards.

So, any thoughts? Suck it up and be Batman? OR "Buy X splatbook, play Y class?" Other options?

Darwin
2010-10-06, 10:20 AM
Edit: Nevermind the first part. There's a Bard build that increases the party's capabilities tremendeously, but I can't remember it by the top of my head.

Edit edit: Dragonfire Inspiration bard from Dragon Magir, look it up on google and you should easily find some solid builds.

valadil
2010-10-06, 10:22 AM
Pick something to optimize that won't overshadow the rest of the party. Batman wizard is one such option. Dedicated buff machine is also fun. If you prefer having things to do in combat, and not just beforehand, consider the mage who escorts fighters to where they need to be by way of dimension door so they get full attacks every turn.

Psyx
2010-10-06, 10:24 AM
Don't be batman. It would be annoying as heck to play alongside.

How about... don't optimise something strong. At all.

Look at the really weak classes, and take the opportunity to play something characterful that you otherwise wouldn't play, because it's 'too weak'.
If the others don't min-max, then a decently played and optimised T4 will be just as good or better than everyone else anyhow.

Darwin
2010-10-06, 10:24 AM
Pick something to optimize that won't overshadow the rest of the party. Batman wizard is one such option.

The Batman wizard will overshadow the party in every imagineable way :smallconfused: The point of Batman is to be ready to tackle any situation on your own.

Greenish
2010-10-06, 10:28 AM
Sorcerer casting is vancian. Besides, if you prefer spontaneous casting, just be a sorcerer.

Anyhow, you could play a party support character, such as the aforementioned DFI bard, buffer caster, white raven focused crusader (might be bit too strong), and so forth.

There's a class that both casts spontaneously and can change spells known each day, Spirit Shaman from CDivine. The druid list is pretty nifty, especially with SC.

Emmerask
2010-10-06, 10:28 AM
As others have said don“t be batman a dedicated buff class is a nice idea or just start as a low tier class monk, ninja, samurai for example and then optimize from there.

Pisha
2010-10-06, 10:34 AM
The option you came up with, where you make everyone else better, is probably the best option. Trust me, no one's going to resent the guy handing out the buffs!

I'm not an optimizer by preference, and neither are most of the players I game with. We have one friend who is, and so I do know how disruptive that can be - even if everyone has the best of intentions, at higher levels the GM is eventually forced to choose between monsters that you can kill without breaking a sweat, or monsters that can easily crush the rest of the party before they can get away. It can be very frustrating for everyone involved, so I do understand your dilemma.

One option that worked for a while was to let the guy play his favorite (very powerful) class, but with GM-imposed restrictions. (Homebrewed rules on how often certain features could be used, other features restricted or outright denied.) Within those limits he could optimize to his heart's content (and still have the fun of playing that class), but the limits kept him from outstripping the rest of the party too soon. If you go that route though, make sure you and the GM are on the same page, otherwise it can lead to trouble later!

Ernir
2010-10-06, 10:37 AM
Does someone in your group have access to Heroes of Battle? If so, take a Sorcerer into War Weaver, and cast buffs. Lots of them.
If you also have the Player's Guide to Faerūn, add Spellguard of Silverymoon to the mix.

MarkusWolfe
2010-10-06, 10:39 AM
Long story short: Optimize just enough for the party to be more likely to overcome anything thrown at you by the DM, but not too much or the DM will throw harder things at you and make life miserable for everyone.

Kaww
2010-10-06, 10:40 AM
My suggestion is a bard. You may ask your DM to give him an ability to find traps, take able learner at lvl 1 and you are now a rogue that lost sneak attack and 2 skill points/lvl. You could also take healing hymn sub since you have 2 clerics. Also VoP for the win if no magic items are available...:smallwink:

Greenish
2010-10-06, 10:42 AM
My suggestion is a bard. You may ask your DM to give him an ability to find traps, take able learner at lvl 1 and you are now a rogue that lost sneak attack and 2 skill points/lvl.Or, instead of burning a feat on Able Learner, which doesn't do much for you, you could use it to grab Trapfinding (Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment, Kobold Domain).

Jolly
2010-10-06, 10:47 AM
I know sorc's are Vancian, as I said the spell memorization part is what I find most grating (although neither way is great).

I'm new to optimization, but isn't the point of batman that the wizard debuffs and controls baddies and buffs the other players? I didn't think it did much damage itself per se.

Quietus
2010-10-06, 10:48 AM
Bard is probably your best route, or a wizard/sorcerer/other caster focussed on buffing. I like Bard the best for this, though, because it can be so incredibly.. subtle, about things.

Optimize your Inspire Courage; there's a handbook for it around somewhere, but it generally involves some spell that boosts it, a magic medallion that boosts it, and possibly the use of Words of Creation to take a bit of subdual to double its bonus. I'd probably avoid WoC at low levels, because +5/6 at level 1 is a lot.. but I don't know of a lot of DMs who will call cheddar on you for putting spell slots and magic item money into giving your party +3 to attack and damage. Alternatively, there's Dragonfire Inspiration, turning that into d6's of damage for everyone.. but +3 attack/damage looks a lot less intimidating than giving everyone 3d6 fire damage to every attack.

Spell choices should involve a couple things to provide yourself with defenses, and a number of spells that buff the party. Haste is always popular. One or two utility-types, like Charm Person, and you'll be good to go.


And later in the game, you can build up a bit to make things more powerful. By the time you're level 6-9, that 3d6 (or 4d6) fire damage looks .. well, still very strong, but it's half what the Wizard's doing with their fireball. Alternatively, WoC lets you take the attack/damage boost up to 6ish. I'd avoid doing both at the same time. Possibly grab Snowflake Wardance, and get into the melee yourself, too.

Il_Vec
2010-10-06, 10:48 AM
If you hate hate hate vancian magic, haven't you considered a buffer Psion?

Ormagoden
2010-10-06, 10:53 AM
Just play a transmutation focused wizard and make everyone else awesome. When/if the crap hits the fan turn into a hydra and mop up. Only use it as an "OH $#!& button" though or people will get tired of it quick.

Greenish
2010-10-06, 10:56 AM
I'm new to optimization, but isn't the point of batman that the wizard debuffs and controls baddies and buffs the other players? I didn't think it did much damage itself per se.The key point for being a batman wizard is to be prepared for anything, usually via using divination spells to gather intelligence.

"God wizard" is what a buffer/debuffer/battlefield control specialist is often referred to, though batmans (or batmen?) often use the same techniques, since they're solid. (The "god" comes from a wizard guide that outlines how such a build plays, and is pumped full of ego-boosting for the wizard to make up for playing a support character.)

Il_Vec
2010-10-06, 10:58 AM
Just play a transmutation focused wizard and make everyone else awesome. When/if the crap hits the fan turn into a hydra and mop up. Only use it as an "OH $#!& button" though or people will get tired of it quick.

You could polymorph another party member, it works better, because he can go to town while you keep buffing the others and part-time controlling the battlefield.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-06, 10:59 AM
I agree with Psyx. Just play a low-tier character. It's best you not stand out as a super buffer either. Especially if the DM's a munchkin, too. He may realize and up throwing bigger bads at you, and the rest of the party wouldn't enjoy that at all.

Play a monk. Play a fighter. Play a paladin. Or a samurai. Something that surely won't outshine the party.

Gorgondantess
2010-10-06, 11:00 AM
I think rather than batman wizard, as described in Logicninja's guide, Treantmonk's GOD wizard would be better. You don't steal the show, because you're god- let the mortals have their fun, you know you can turn reality on its head and make it do a silly dance anyways.
Avoid save-or-loses, and go for debuffing stuff like ray of enfeeblement or enervation, battlefield control stuff like grease or the black tentacles thing, and buffing like enlarge person and haste. Let them do the heavy lifting... just turn the heavy thing to be lifted into a feather, make it really easy for them to grab, and make them into Charles Atlas. NEVER end the baddies yourself. Honestly, it's the only way to play wizard- it's just gauche to try to be batman.
That way, you can be Uber super powerful, and they'll just think you're the nerdy guy who stands in the back. After all, they're the ones who are killing everything, right?:smallamused:

Il_Vec
2010-10-06, 11:01 AM
Play a monk. Play a fighter. Play a paladin. Or a samurai. Something that surely won't outshine the party.

Fear-focused samurai debuffer. Don't laugh, it works.

blackjack217
2010-10-06, 11:06 AM
If you want to make everyone better play a class like marshal... or this guy http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165950&highlight=warlord

Ormagoden
2010-10-06, 11:09 AM
No mention of war weaver either? Shame shame...

Lhurgyof
2010-10-06, 11:13 AM
Fear-focused samurai debuffer. Don't laugh, it works.

I know it can work, but out of the box it isn't the best class there is. xD

Kaww
2010-10-06, 11:21 AM
Does someone in your group have access to Heroes of Battle? If so, take a Sorcerer into War Weaver, and cast buffs. Lots of them.
If you also have the Player's Guide to Faerūn, add Spellguard of Silverymoon to the mix.


No mention of war weaver either? Shame shame...

I think it was mentioned...

true_shinken
2010-10-06, 11:22 AM
Play a lockdown build. Better yet, a Fighter lockdown build.
It's so hard to pull off that you'll be very pleased when you see all your hard work being rewarded. You won't be doing craploads of damage (most of the time) and the party will love you.

lsfreak
2010-10-06, 11:27 AM
Batman has two meanings, one of which does everything in a selfish way, and one of which does everything in a make-everyone-else-feel-awesome way (that's really GOD, but people tend to call both batman from what I've seen). Play the latter. Buff the crap out of your allies, debuff your enemies without flat taking them out. Shape the battlefield to your ally's advantage (not merely your enemy's disadvantage), tactical teleport them around, and so on. Have a few much more direct and very nasty options (dominate person, for example) for when things look rough and you can't afford to hold back.

Binding is an option if you've got Tome of Magic. You can specialize in one thing and be awesome at it, or try and fill multiple roles, which will weaken you overall but a) make you a jack-of-all-trades and b) keep you more in line with other characters.

Psion would be another option. Shadowcasters, if your DM lets you apply one of various fixes (Realm of Chaos' Descent of Shadow in homebrew is amazing, but more likely the semi-official fix posted by the creator), could work. Both have a good mix of buffing, debuffing, and offense.

A bard/warblade focusing on Inspire Courage and White Raven maneuvers could work. You deal a decent amount of damage yourself, but mainly you boost your allies. However, tacking +5d6 damage onto your allies attacks is a much more overt boost than the other options, especially because people have irrational gut reactions when it comes to adding dice.

A crusader could easily be played to primarily be support. Your goals are going to either be tripping with a spiked chain, or protecting allies with a combination of shield + Faith Unswerving feat.

A final option would be a dungeoncrasher/shock trooper/Zhentarim/knockdown/Three Mountains fighter. You'll definitely be dealing damage, but your primary goals are disabling through fear, tripping, and nausea, plus battlefield control with bullrushing.

EDIT: Missed that you don't have splats, so many of those are out. Tome of Battle is 100% worth it. Tome of Magic is worth it just for the binder, and shadowcaster is playable with a few tweaks. Magic of Incarnum is worth it. All three books introduce new mechanics, though. The second round of Completes (Mage, Scoundrel, Champion) and PHB2 are the best Core-mechanic books ever published, and the first round isn't too bad if you know what you're doing.

mootoall
2010-10-06, 11:33 AM
With such a lack of magic items, maybe an artifacer is an option? Then just reign yourself in.

Radar
2010-10-06, 11:36 AM
Fear-focused samurai debuffer. Don't laugh, it works.
It mauls anything not immune to fear so easily, it's kind of scary. The most fameous samurai around: Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726) (by ShneekeyTheLost).

El Dorado
2010-10-06, 11:50 AM
Another option is to optimize to your heart's content but then exercise some restraint during the actual game. Memorize a wide range of spells (battlefield control, blasting, utility, defense, buff) but only one or two game winners for emergencies.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-06, 12:16 PM
I'm fond of Wizards for low op groups (I know how you feel about them). You have direct control over how much rocking you do is the main element, and if you really want to amp the party as a whole up you can PRC into Warweaver.

Jolly
2010-10-06, 01:11 PM
I haven't thought of psions because I've never played one, seen one played, or read any of the rulebooks for them. And I don't know if my DM would go for it.

I don't have any splats now, but I'm planning to purchase a few. I'd been looking at Libris Mortis (been really interested in making an undead character lately, but that's a different thread) and PHB II. Hadn't heard of Heroes of Battle, can anyone tell me a little more about War Weaver and what style of play that is?

Greenish
2010-10-06, 01:17 PM
I haven't thought of psions because I've never played one, seen one played, or read any of the rulebooks for them.Luckily, they're in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm).

true_shinken
2010-10-06, 01:23 PM
I'm fond of Wizards for low op groups (I know how you feel about them). You have direct control over how much rocking you do is the main element, and if you really want to amp the party as a whole up you can PRC into Warweaver.

I find it amusing that we see this kind of advice pretty often... but also hear very often that a Wizard 'overshadows a Fighter without even trying, that's the point of the tier system'.

Esser-Z
2010-10-06, 01:31 PM
I find it amusing that we see this kind of advice pretty often... but also hear very often that a Wizard 'overshadows a Fighter without even trying, that's the point of the tier system'.
...Okay, I'm going to bite the bullet.

By "overshadows the Fighter without even trying", we mean that the Wizard can overshadow the fighter without any building effort. It's easy to see which spells are very powerful, and simply choosing the right spells overshadows the fighter. There's not any effort involved in the building process. No complicated combinations or feat chains or multiclassing or etc. Just high int, straight wizard, good spell choice (which, again, is pretty easy).


This DOES NOT MEAN the wizard automatically overshadows the Fighter. It's very easy to see what spells are very effective, but those are far from the ONLY spells. By choosing less overwhelming spells or using different tactics (Buffing and debuffing, area control, or similar, letting the fighter do the actual hitting. Blasting actually counts here, too!), a wizard can work WITH the party. He can be tailored to different levels of effectiveness easily.

In summation: "easy to be very powerful" does not equal "MUST be very powerful".

true_shinken
2010-10-06, 01:36 PM
...Okay, I'm going to bite the bullet.
(...) In summation: "easy to be very powerful" does not equal "MUST be very powerful".

If it takes effort, why is it a problem that a Wizard might break the game 'by accident'?

Greenish
2010-10-06, 01:39 PM
If it takes effortThat's exactly the opposite of what he said.

Esser-Z
2010-10-06, 01:44 PM
If it takes effort, why is it a problem that a Wizard might break the game 'by accident'?


That's exactly the opposite of what he said.


Thank you, Greenish. The only "effort" it takes to build an extremely effective wizard is... reading the spell list. That's it. Put your highest score in int, read the spell list, act with logical tactics. Incredibly simple. Now, while very powerful, this wizard is still nowhere near the MAXIMUM for the class. The so-called God (or Batman) Wizard requires effort put into it, as do builds like More Than 100% Real Illusions and so forth.

But your run of the mill end-encounters-with-great-haste Wizard is incredibly easy to build, and incredibly easy to stumble into. A less experienced player might see that some of the spells this sort of build uses are good, without realizing HOW good they are. It's very easy to end up dominating, as a wizard.

true_shinken
2010-10-07, 10:41 PM
But your run of the mill end-encounters-with-great-haste Wizard is incredibly easy to build, and incredibly easy to stumble into. A less experienced player might see that some of the spells this sort of build uses are good, without realizing HOW good they are. It's very easy to end up dominating, as a wizard.
So that sort of advice should not be given in this sort of thread at all.