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Sillycomic
2010-10-06, 06:03 PM
This is our group. We’re all 3rd level (except for the half ogre, he’s ECL 3)
I’m a minotaur cleric (dragonlance minotaur with no LA)
Half elf warlock
Elf bard.
Half orge barbarian
Human wizard

Let me go through the last two sessions, each of the fights and see if perhaps it will explain why I’m so frustrated with the game.
We’re going into this desecrated temple that’s been “abandoned” for a couple hundred years.

First there is a very large ramp bridge that goes on an incline 75 feet up in the air to this watch tower. We go on the ramp, and when we are halfway there, a swarm of stirges come to attack us. We don’t get much of a chance to see them. They simply fly out and attack.

Since I’m in the front, 3 of them latch onto me, and one latches onto the rest of my party. 7 stirges in all. I get 10 points of con drained from me. Yeah. I spent a good 10 minutes figuring out my new HP… mostly cause I had to keep recalculating as they kept draining.

And since we’re on a bridge ramp, 50 feet up from the ground, there’s really nowhere for us to go. Stirges got surprise round to attack and upper hand when it came to terrain.

Second attack was in the watchtower itself, with shadows. Again shadows come out of the walls, so they get to attack on a surprise round. Plus since they can walk through walls they were constantly moving and we could never get a chance to fight them. So, the terrain favors them as well. Surprise round and terrain again.

I get touched and drained of 6 strength. I’m down 10 con and 6 strength as this point. I mused it was funny I turned from a powerful melee cleric into a commoner with some healing spells in about 30 minutes of game time, but I didn’t think it was funny at all.

Plus, since the place was desecrated, I had minuses to my Turn undead, horrible rolls when I did try to turn undead (I think I rolled a 3 my first time) and top it off the shadows were wandering through very thick stone walls. I honestly couldn’t do much of anything.

We spent the next 2 days resting while I restored most of my stats to what they were.

Next gaming session:


We go to a warped grove at the corner of this temple area. We wander in and then we are entangled, assassin vines come down from above and start grappling our team members. (this would be the third time favorable terrain and surprise round attack)

We got both listen and spot checks, and while some people got over 20 on these checks, the only thing the DM said was that this forest, “doesn’t sound like a normal forest.”

I am useless with a bow, and since they’re grappled I would have a minus to even hit them. So, I trudge through the entangle effect to try and help my friends. Horrible reflex means I am only making it about half the time.
Plus, this is when the GM decides that a Cockatrice just randomly shows up and wants to touch all of us. So, most of the party is entangled and dealing with grappling vines, and the one small creature with the power to turn us into stone with a successful touch shows up.

Yeah. So we defeat the vines and the cockatrice, but not before our barbarian is turned to stone. Just a bad roll, I suppose. There’s nothing we can do. I’m only a level 3 cleric. What can I do when someone turns to stone? My stone to flesh spell isn’t for another few levels yet.
Well, we continue going through the forest, cause the DM hints there might be something ahead that can help.

Cue the Dryad. As with all the attacks in this temple, she is aware we are coming and has multiple rounds to buff herself up (potion of shield, potion of mage armor). Then she is hiding as we come in, and we have no clue where she is. In fact, we’re not even aware it’s a dryad until about halfway through the fight.

Bam. Another entangle spell on us.

Now we’re being target for spells and we don’t even know where it’s coming from. I asked the GM for a listen check and he says, “nope, you’re too far away.”

So I am trudging through the entangle, only moving once every other round. Meanwhile my friends are still looking for something, or being the targets of spells. A suggestion spell made someone run away. A touch of idiocy spell severely hurt our wizard.

Finally we’re able to see/hear the dryad up in the tree. At that point she starts tree striding and disappears into the forest once more.

When she does appear on the ground no one can get to her. Our warlock is throwing blasts at her and summoned a swarm at her. I keep rolling poorly so I can’t get out of the entangle to engage her, and everyone else can’t hit her super incredible AC because she boosted it so much.

Finally after a couple of touch spells from our warlock and bard, she falls prone and eventually dies.

I did absolutely nothing the entire fight except get stuck in weeds.
Next fight is inside the temple. We are looking through random rooms for anything of interest.

I knock on one door that I see is closed.

Mimic.

It gets a free attack, and grapples me. How fun, another surprise round for a bad guy. We eventually beat the mimic down.

Next level of the dungeon we are searching again… and I see a dead body lying in the corner. I am thinking smart this time, back away over 20 feet and then start hitting it with crossbow bolts.

GM says a swarm of centipedes rushes out of the body and attacks me.
Again, bad guys get a surprise round to attack before anyone does anything.

Knowing I’m useless against a swarm (being useless against enemies just seems like a running gag in this temple) I duck back into a room, which happens to be a magical freezer that is always cold. The GM determines that, since I was in there for 2 rounds, and wearing a breastplate I should take cold damage.

So, according to my tally out of the 6 fights we’ve been in for this temple: 3 dealt with ability drain, 4 had favored terrain for the monster, and all six of them got a surprise round to attack or buff as they saw fit.

I can see this happening every once in a while, but all of this happening in a row?

Am I wrong… or is the Dm seriously out to get us? I have never had to deal with such a unique grouping of enemies before. I was useless and unsure what to do half the time. I have felt completely frustrated the last two sessions. Is it just me, should I calm down and try to have fun with the game?

This is our 5th and 6th gaming session. The first few sessions were absolutely nothing like this. This is why I feel so confused about the whole thing. If it was like this from the beginning I would not have played, but I’m wondering if this is a fluke, or am I just missing something?

Maybe I just need a new strategy for fighting these kinds of enemies. Any help at all would be appreciated.

Keld Denar
2010-10-06, 06:06 PM
Was the DM smiling the whole time? If the DM is smiling, you should probably quit while you are ahead.

Sillycomic
2010-10-06, 06:24 PM
There was some smiling at times. And I did hear a few, "Well this is going to be interesting" from the DM.

Eldariel
2010-10-06, 06:26 PM
Am I wrong… or is the Dm seriously out to get us? I have never had to deal with such a unique grouping of enemies before. I was useless and unsure what to do half the time. I have felt completely frustrated the last two sessions. Is it just me, should I calm down and try to have fun with the game?

This is our 5th and 6th gaming session. The first few sessions were absolutely nothing like this. This is why I feel so confused about the whole thing. If it was like this from the beginning I would not have played, but I’m wondering if this is a fluke, or am I just missing something?

Maybe I just need a new strategy for fighting these kinds of enemies. Any help at all would be appreciated.

Honestly, that sounds like run-of-the-mill enemies for areas like that. Stirges? Well, they sure don't feel out-of-place. Shadows? Abandoned Temples, of course. (Corrupted/Misguided) Dryad and Assassin Vines in a dark forest? Well, duh.

Sure, the encounters are somewhat tough but they sound interesting. Swarms? Use splash weapons if you don't have appropriate spells. Magic? Well, that's just low-level magic; it's powerful, to be sure, but the same kinda stuff is in your disposal. Shadows? They are admittedly tough encounters for their level but they're actually only CR 3 so very fair game against a party of 5 level 3 characters. You survived, didn't you?


The only thing I'm wondering about is the DM not giving you any checks at all to determine where the spells are coming from and that kinda stuff; good rolls always happen and with a Cleric's Wisdom, you could get mid-20s Listen with some luck which should give you some idea already.

But yeah, those definitely seem like tactical challenges more than anything else. Shadows? Have your martial types ready actions and pack Scrolls of Magic Weapon. You really, really should have some around anyways 'cause Shadow isn't the only bothersome incorporeal you could run into.

Splash weapons are something you should always have handy for the simple reason that swarms come in all shapes and sizes and are very, very hard to deal with through conventional means before stronger control spells come into play.

And Entangle (and by extension, Web, Glitterdust, Grease, Color Spray...there's a lot of bothersome area spells on low levels) is really a matter of party marching order/positioning, scouting habits (always having a stealthy type scan ahead really helps; if possible, with Invisibility) and cooperation.

How did you enter the room? Was someone running Detect Magic? Chances are you could have detected the presence immediately if you did. Did you have K: Nature? Does someone have notably high Spot & Listen? Do you wager you could have spotted the Assassin Vines before they hit you?

Of course monsters have favorable terrain; monsters exist in environments that's favorable to them. That's a part of their ecology and since PCs are practically always the invaders, terrain will very rarely favor them unless they make it to (with battlefield morphing spells, baiting and positioning, things which probably weren't possible here). But surprise round can often be avoided. 10-foot poles, bought animals (the prices are rather low; as long as someone has Handle Animal, you could easily bring some Riding Dogs along and have them go ahead), etc. definitely help with that, and could provide invaluable help in solving other types of issues too.


But what I suggest you do: Decide if that kind of gaming interests you or not. For example, I'd definitely love to be a player in such a campaign, provided the DM plays fair and gives you all the skill checks you're entitled to and all the information you're entitled to. Sometimes DMs screw up, it's fine, just as long as it's not intentional deprivation of information the PCs by virtue of their abilities are entittled to. I can think of people who couldn't care at all for it.

It's worth noting that your group lacks the observant, stealthy guy. That's a notable handicap and could be the reason you keep getting surprised. Consider hiring someone from the local thieves' guild or have someone cover that role with some tricks (off-hand, I can think of the "Whispered Secrets" [RoD] feat for Cleric which grants Listen and Spot, though being Vecna's feat; if you ask for a quick refluff for whatever your deity is, it should work fine - other ways involve magically enhancing your senses and some such).

And don't forget that you won all the encounters; doesn't that mean they weren't overpowered? It's hard to challenge a group of 5 with small groups of enemies, after all. You can simply expand your repertoire to have more tricks up your sleeve; as a Cleric, it's very hard to make you useless.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-06, 06:30 PM
This is our group. We’re all 3rd level (except for the half ogre, he’s ECL 3)
I’m a minotaur cleric (dragonlance minotaur with no LA)
Half elf warlock
Elf bard.
Half orge barbarian
Human wizard



Second attack was in the watchtower itself, with shadows. Again shadows come out of the walls, so they get to attack on a surprise round. Plus since they can walk through walls they were constantly moving and we could never get a chance to fight them. So, the terrain favors them as well. Surprise round and terrain again.

Ready an attack to hit them when they get near.


Plus, since the place was desecrated, I had minuses to my Turn undead, horrible rolls when I did try to turn undead (I think I rolled a 3 my first time) and top it off the shadows were wandering through very thick stone walls. I honestly couldn’t do much of anything.

Does Turn Undead say Thick stone blocks it?
No, it works if you had better turn Check.



Maybe I just need a new strategy for fighting these kinds of enemies. Any help at all would be appreciated.

swarm: you should have bought some holy water for Shadows, acid or fire flasks for centipede swarm.

Always carry a torch or a flask for swarms. Unless have spells for them.

Runeclaw
2010-10-06, 06:32 PM
Sounds like a good game to me. Yes, you should relax. You should learn from your mistakes and try to devlop ways to be useful in different situations. Everyone should have some kind of way to participate in ranged combat.

Yes, it was a lot of ability drain, which can kinda suck. But unfavorable terrain and surprise attacks are par for the course and can make the game more realistic and fun. After all, you're invading someone elses defiled temple, right? Its only reasonable that the defenders have terrain in their favor and, unless you are very sneaky, are likely to ambush you. Are you getting to make Spot/Listen checks before the surprise attacks? Are you making Hide/Move Silently checks to sneak up on them? Are there precautions you could be taking?

Nero24200
2010-10-06, 06:39 PM
It sounds like your DM is adopting a "DM vrs the Players" type of mentality, where the only way for him to have fun is to make things as tough as possible for the PC's.

As much as it may sound like predictabe advice, I would say talk to him. Talk to the group as well - Do they all feel the same? If so it may strenghen your point when you discuss it with the DM.

If it keeps up then I think it might be worth trying to find another group, or at least another DM. Having said that, is this person the only one who DMs? Maybe if someone else DM's for a bit he might see what things are like from a Player's perspective.

Alternatively, trying playing the hyper-paranoid party. Have the party search every square of every dungeon "just in case" there may be traps. Search twice in fact just to be safe. Whenever you kill a creature cut the body up into peices then burn it to ashes with fire to prevent any possiblity of animation. Having characters go to such lenghts is more than a reasonable reaction when deadly challenges like those await literially around every corner.

Though how did the leaches in the dead body get a surprise round? You were aware of danger and even had your weapon out firing at their location.

With the dryad you should have gotten a listen check - Being far away makes the check harder, but doesn't make you unable to hear.

Incorrect
2010-10-07, 04:20 AM
Touch of idiocy is a, surprise, touch spell. That should give you a clue to where the caster is.

I think you should make a habit of telling the GM that you expect to be attacked. As with the swarm from the corpse, make it clear to him that you expect that something will attack you. If you know its coming, it dosent get a suprise round.
Ready action can be your friend, make everyone ready actions.

Also, why are you knocking on doors, thats the rogues job (or maybe in this case the bard if he invested skillpoints to be rogue-like). You are in an evil temple, dont touch anything.

I dont think the GM is out to get you. You got ability drained, but you survived and even had the time to restore. It sounds like he wants you to fight smart and be very careful. So hang behind the ogre with readied actions while the bard searches in front of you

FelixG
2010-10-07, 04:30 AM
Sounds like some fun and challenging encounters.

The only one i woulda called BS on for the DM would be the not hearing her spell casting.

Spell casters have to speak in loud strident voices, they cant whisper their vocal components. You don't even need a listen check to hear them most of time.

Unless shes using spells without a vocal component... in which case your screwed.

Other than that the rest seems like bad choice of tactics... save the Cockatrice...i hate those things...i have a bad history with them...plus its environment is wrong, it has no reason to be in a spooky forest unless DM fait as it clearly says it belongs in "Temperate plains" :P

CalamaroJoe
2010-10-07, 06:16 AM
I too think that those were exiting encounters, if one is into that kind of things.

Only I think that your master get carried away by the situation, specially with the dryad (besides the cited touch attack, to be influenced by a suggestion you must hear it) and the centipedes (I wouldn't have given them the surprise round).

Probably all the gamers (PC and DM) are a bit unexperienced. I advise you to ask your DM some time at the start or at the end of the session (or during breaks) to talk about some parts of the game mechanics that you find obscure or that you thing he/she misinterpreted. Or direclty ask ""how should have we dealt with this or that?"

Anyway, have fun :)

Psyx
2010-10-07, 06:30 AM
Creatures will always attempt to use terrain for advantage. You don't get to be an apex predator by ignoring the advantages that you can take.


GM says a swarm of centipedes rushes out of the body and attacks me.
Again, bad guys get a surprise round to attack before anyone does anything.

Your GM is too happy to use surprise rounds, in my estimation. In most of the fights you described: Fair enough. However, if you are shooting crossbow bolts into a corpse, waiting for something horrible to happen, there is NOT a surprise round. Likewise; how were the stirges able to fly right up to you and get a surprise round?

Surprise rounds do not automatically happen. You get checks to avoid them most of the time, and most of the time they are simply not applicable.

prufock
2010-10-07, 07:35 AM
I'd have to agree with the majority here: the DM's only serious problem is that he's surprise-happy.
A Stirge has no move silently ranks. At the very least you should get a listen check to hear their wings flapping.
The spot check for noticing Assassin Vines is 20. If you were near enough to get attacked by them, you are near enough to see them. Should not have been a surprise round.
A Dryad has a hide modifier of +11, so an average check will be 21 or 22. You should still get a spot check. It wasn't clear whether you did or not. A surprise round here is reasonable IF you failed your spot checks. However, at the point of casting Suggestion and Touch of Idiocy, you should definitely get checks to notice.
The Mimic's surprise round is fair game.
Centipedes out of dead body: you are specifically paying attention to the body, from 20 feet away, have a weapon in your hand, firing at it. There should be no surprise round there.

Everything else sounds like fair tactics and some bad luck on your part (stone barbarian). You're a cleric; you have spells like Sanctuary, Protection from Evil, Magic Weapon (useful against incorporeals), Detect Undead, Bless, Bane, Summon Monster, and Detect Magic. The wizard, bard, and warlock should have some similar abilities. Use them, so you don't get caught with your pants down.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-07, 07:56 AM
After lots of chaos, the group was exploring the nearby woods to find a certain book.
2 clerics, 1 druid/wiz, 1 fighter, 1 bard. All level 6. Let's call them C1,C2,D,F and B
We enter a clearing (it was very dark, and no one had darkvision or low-light) and find ourselves facing the bearers of the book: 2 mind flayers, a beholder and a pack of bugbears.
C1 casts a holy rain, B casts a spell that drops the bugbs prone. C2 casts weapon of energy on his longspear, F quaffs a potion that gives him some enhancements and a bite attack and D casts Enlarge Person on F. Bh shoots Finger of Death and Disintegrate at F, and Charm at C2. All saves were made. MF1&2 move to surround us. In range, MF1 uses his stun aoe, everyone but D save.
-----------------
C1 casts Bless, B sings, C2 casts resurgence on D, but he fails the save, F charges MF2, D is dizzy, Bh repeats his action and everyone saves again. MF1&2 repeat their blasts and everyone saves. Bugbs run toward us but are still within the rain and out of our range.
-----------------
C1 chases F and heals, B sings some more ( i don't remember what spell he also cast ), C2 casts another resurgence and D saves, F minces MF2 but does not kill it, D casts glitterdust on the Bugbs + MF1 , Bh does Disintegrate+FoD on F and Fear, all saves are made. MF 1 reaches C2 and tries to grapple and gets a tentacle on, MF2 tries the same on F but fails, Bugbs melt.
-----------------
C1 heals F again, B casts a spell on MF1 but it doesn't work, C2 uses its travel domain power to release the grab, runs to and stabs MF2, killing it.F charges Bh, D casts a spell I forgot, but Bh saves. Bh tries Flesh to Stone on C1, who saves, Disintegrate on B, who saves, charm on F, who is protected, bite on F, which misses, and FoD on F. Bh also opens its eye, AMFing everything but the fighter. MF1 is in the amf and retreats till he's out of the field.
-----------------
C1 follows F, B draws a dagger and throws it at Bh, C2 charges and stabs Bh, F minces Bh some, D doesn't do anything significant that round. Bh gets pissed, closes its Eye, repeats the rays and flies out of melee range. MF1 runs back but is too far to reach anyone.
-----------------
C1 commands the Bh to halt, but it saves. F manages to jump and do one attack. B casts a spell that forces Bh to charge it heedlessly, C2 commands MF2 to flee but fails. F repeats his action, D entangles MF1, Bh charges, getting in reach and taking a couple AoOs, but it survives and eats B. MF1 laughs at the grass and closes in.
-----------------
C1 tries to cast a spell, but fails the con check and causes an AoO. Bh eats C1. C2 gets a crit for 60+ damage on Bh. F minces Bh and finally kills it. MF blasts and only C2 saved.
-----------------
C2 tries a resurgence on F and he doesn't save. MF grapples D
-----------------
C2 pokes MF, MF eats D's brain.
-----------------
C2 kills MF.
The biggest deal was that, well, all those saves we made all that often were all 17+ rolls. Any roll made that was under 17 was a failed save. Tells you a lot on the dm's sense of scale.

Thefurmonger
2010-10-07, 08:06 AM
I think its worth pointing out that when I DM, I roll checks for the PC's that they would not know about (Spot, Listen, etc)

So it could be that they DID get checks, they just rolled low.

Aslo I will 3rd (5th?) the fact that it sounds like a lot of fun, and would love to play in that campaign.

Lev
2010-10-07, 08:17 AM
Keeping track of a dozen flying enemies while playing off-grid combat encounters.

Aotrs Commander
2010-10-07, 08:40 AM
I think its worth pointing out that when I DM, I roll checks for the PC's that they would not know about (Spot, Listen, etc)

So it could be that they DID get checks, they just rolled low.

Aslo I will 3rd (5th?) the fact that it sounds like a lot of fun, and would love to play in that campaign.

Or possibly, the DM might even have used passive checks (i.e. 10+skill).

In either case, if the party don't have anyone with a maxed Spot/Listen (e.g. the Bard), they do kinda deserve to be ambushed frequently.

DanReiv
2010-10-07, 08:44 AM
Same with above, seems fine to me except the constant surprise rounds.

Then again, maybe you have no good scout, didn't tried to conceal your presence that kind of things, you weren't very explicit on the subject.

Other than that, you had challenging encounters that you finally managed to overcome so...

Maybe a bit trigger happy on your weakness too (ref sav/touch AC).

I'd talk with the DM about the surprise round/detection issue at least. Not sure he got that surprise round = standard action in Init order for teh aware.

I doubt all the stirges managed to sneak behind you all, then use their surprise round to attack.

Same with the centipedes.

Diarmuid
2010-10-07, 08:52 AM
So far, the only thing I can see as possibly a problem was the shadows automatically gaining surprise.

Sure they can float through walls, but that doesnt mean then can see/hear through them. So I could see them floating into the room and then initiative being rolled.

Well that and the balance of that last encounter. That's easily a EL14 at least, probably a bit more. Definitely way outside the boundaries for a ECL6 party.

DanReiv
2010-10-07, 09:09 AM
Hu ?

I don't see any CR14 encouter here... stirges are CR 1/2, shadows, assassin vines, cockatrice, dryad are 3, mimic and swarm are 4.

Doesn't seem out of place for 5 lvl 3 who probably leveled in the process, assuming they weren't 10+ shadows lurking in the wall.

Thefurmonger
2010-10-07, 09:11 AM
Well that and the balance of that last encounter. That's easily a EL14 at least, probably a bit more. Definitely way outside the boundaries for a ECL6 party.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is that CR14?

I'll grant you it's not easy but I just don't see it.

Diarmuid
2010-10-07, 09:11 AM
I meant the Beholder, 2 Mind Flayers and Bugbears encounter that was in the Spoiler.

Beholder: CR 13
Mind Flayer: CR 8 (2 of them becomes a 10)
Bugbears: CR 2

A mixed pair of a 13 and an 11 is a 14. Seemed the closest I could come up with not knowing how many bugbears there were.

Chen
2010-10-07, 09:27 AM
I meant the Beholder, 2 Mind Flayers and Bugbears encounter that was in the Spoiler.

Beholder: CR 13
Mind Flayer: CR 8 (2 of them becomes a 10)
Bugbears: CR 2

A mixed pair of a 13 and an 11 is a 14. Seemed the closest I could come up with not knowing how many bugbears there were.

That was not the OP posting.

Diarmuid
2010-10-07, 09:30 AM
Oops. Well that encounter still seems out of whack for that party.

/shrug

Snake-Aes
2010-10-07, 09:30 AM
It was aggravated by the dm humping the air whenever the beholder ate someone. The game died after that session.

Another_Poet
2010-10-07, 12:00 PM
This sounds a LOT like the first campaign I ran. (Yep, guilty as charged.)

Is this a newer DM? If so then I think he is trying to go for more exciting/more dangerous but winnable encounters, and not realising that he's making them less fun. I thought that shadows coming out of walls and well-prepared bad guys who run away would make things more tactical. I thought that choosing monsters that deal ability damage rather than hp damage would allow me to use higher CR monsters without risking killing off all the PCs. I was right on all counts but I neglected to consider whether it would be fun. The PCs felt like punching bags and thankfully they let me know it. I did start to change things based on their feedback but not till late in the game. My first full campaign was sucky for it, though they had some great moments.

If it is a newish GM I would simply find a polite way to share your concerns. Talk about the things you like but also the things you don't. Remind him/her that you like to feel like heroes, and though you understand ambushes and runaway villains will happen, you also want to feel prepared and get the rush of excitement of killing a major baddy. Ask him/her to mix in a range of different types of encounters instead of using only really prepared enemies for story's sake. (It is almost definitely for story's sake that he/she is designing encounters this way - a different brand of railroading.)

Bear with the GM and speak up when you like things as well as when you feel beat down. New GMs thrive on praise and will often increase their use of the things that get complimented. One thing you can look forward to in this kind of campaign is that when you do kill a major threat or set up the perfect strategy and own a fight, you will feel like a million dollars squared times infinity. You'll be on a high because you know you really earned it. That doesn't make the other 80% of the game more fun but it is a nice pick-me-up to count on as the GM learns how to handle encounters.

On the other hand if this is an experienced GM they are set in their ways. I'd try a polite group conversation once and if there isn't immediate and lasting change I'd part ways. Not in a ragequit way, as the GM isn't actually being a jerk, they just have a style of game that you (and most people) hate. "We can still be friends." Yada yada.

ap

Tyndmyr
2010-10-07, 12:35 PM
Likewise; how were the stirges able to fly right up to you and get a surprise round?

Make sure the DM realizes that a surprise round is only a standard action. So, from the point they can be detected, they only get a standard action before regular init starts. For melee mobs, this matters a great deal.

Readied actions will help you against things like shadows that strike from safety.

And of course, when you are attacking/preparing for an attack from a specific area, like the corpse, then you are not surprised.

Likewise, point out that listen checks are modified by distance, but only a bit. Hearing someone talking is rather easy normally, so even with a little distance, it's a pretty doable check. I suggest calculating the RAW check from the rules.

The encounters themselves are difficult, but not insane, if you clean up some of these little rule issues. If the DM continues to bend rules to make encounters unwinnable, I suggest the run away tactic. Run, from everything. Always. It is logical IC, and is the reasonable solution to fights you dont think you can win.

Eldariel
2010-10-07, 12:39 PM
Make sure the DM realizes that a surprise round is only a standard action. So, from the point they can be detected, they only get a standard action before regular init starts. For melee mobs, this matters a great deal.

Don't forget Partial Charge though.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-07, 12:52 PM
Right. Still, anything with a full attack, or far enough away, is pretty limited. The spot and listen DCs are a mere +1 per 10 feet, IIRC, so you can sometimes start combat quite a ways away indeed.

Shenanigans
2010-10-07, 12:57 PM
I agree with the general sentiment so far. The DM seems a little kill-happy, and might need to be enlightened on a couple rules situations (surprise round actions, Listen checks, etc.)

That said, your party would be well served to follow the advice above also. Readied actions will be your friend, as well as some additional preparation. The Barbarian only having one character level probably didn't help much either.

Good luck!

Susano-wo
2010-10-07, 01:11 PM
Definitely agreethat the fights are interesting, and not really out of place, though not all of the surprise rounds were fair.

The main thing, though that has been briefly coverd that I wanted to bring up is: there should be a lot more checks rolled (unless more checks were rolled than made into the OP. However, in some cases(like the forest) he *may* be wanting you guys to take the initiative. Listen check says that the forest sounds wierd (whould have also informed you that there were some critters very nreaby, but oh well). Did anyone ask to make Knowledge checks? I know I would have, especially nature and arcana.

BUt unless he/she is unreasonable, I would definitely talk with your DM about the skill checks and surprise issue, but aside fomr that it sounds fine; honestly, I think a lot of your frustration seems to be coming from the fact that you ended up not being very useful in those fights (which is a prefectly understandable reason to be annoyed)

Diarmuid
2010-10-07, 01:23 PM
Well, if he was only not useful because those passive skill checks are not being made by the DM, then he's got what I would consider a legitimite gripe.

Sure, sometimes you're a fighter and you're not going to be able to do diddly to that flying guy. Or you're a Fire wizard and that red dragon is going to laugh in your face all day.

But, that same fighter not noticing that something is barrelling down on him until it's in his face and has already incapacitated him before he was allowed to react simply because he didnt request a Spot/Listen check at the right time seems a bit much to me.

Susano-wo
2010-10-07, 02:01 PM
I'm not saying that is the only thing that he is upset about is that, I'm just saying it sounds like that is acting as a multiplying factor. The skill checks (assuming they aren't getting all that they should, which seems to be the case) and illigitimate surprise rounds are defintiely legitimate beefs

Sillycomic
2010-10-07, 05:03 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. I do agree with most of this. I don’t think the GM is being purposefully mean about any of the encounters. Perhaps it is partially my fault, though. I have no spot or listen and I’m out in front of everything. No wonder monsters keep jumping up to bite me.

I will make sure to grab more supplies, and some sort of rogue next time we go into town.

As a cleric fighter though, in my head I’m thinking, “well, they can surprise me, get in the first shot and then I’ll just take them down with my superior weapon and strength.” But then stirges grapple and drain, vines grapple and constrict, cockatrice’s touch and turn to stone, mimics grapple, and swarms aren’t affected by weapon damage. I just feel that my character just becomes more and more useless as the encounters go on.

We did have a rogue in our party, but he died when he thought he could go head to head with a dragon. The rogue turned extra crispy and the player decided to play a half ogre barbarian.

Unfortunately I don’t think the bard is all that good as being rogue-like. Honestly not quite sure what the bard is good at. I will tell you he’s role played very well.

As far as the touch of idiocy spell, that was delivered via a bat familiar. He just appeared and began flying around to deliver all of the touch spells. And the bat had a higher AC than the dryad. Just impossible to hit. I know the dryad had wizard or sorcerer levels, just not sure how many.

awa
2010-10-07, 08:10 PM
just because it's "fair" does not mean its fun you don't seem to have fought any normal enemies that will let a straight melee character do more then feel bored sure you can carry all sorts of alchemical gear so you have something to do but your still not getting to do what you designed your character to do. this is a group game the goal is for every one to have fun and if your not having fun because you never get to fight monsters you can meaningfully affect then something is wrong are the other party members enjoying these kinds of encounter if not maybe it's time to talk with your dm.

Psyx
2010-10-08, 05:23 AM
You shouldn't need to ask for listen and spot checks. Your characters are immersed in the environment and it's the GM's job to ask for them.

Your GM seems to like every fight to be hard work, when in reality most should be a simple matter.

Likewise, he seems grapple-happy. Most GMs recognise that grappling is dull, badly thought out, and basically a chore to some extent. Most are happy to try to avoid it a lot of the time, unless they are very confrontational Me Vs. You style GMs, or like the players to be helpless and annoyed. I'd recommend picking up Close Quarter Combat as soon as possible if you GM seems over-keen to use grapples.

arrowhen
2010-10-08, 09:07 AM
It sounds to me like the DM is learning how to craft tough but fair challenges for your party - that's a good thing. Now he just needs to work on *varying* the difficulty levels for the sake of good pacing.

Arbane
2010-10-08, 12:33 PM
Your GM seems to like every fight to be hard work, when in reality most should be a simple matter.


My last GM was like that. She seemed to think any fight were at least one PC wasn't face-down in a pool of their own blood at some point was a mistake. :smalleek:

Sillycomic
2010-10-08, 01:05 PM
I do like those fights as final boss fights.

Not all of the fights leading up to the boss.

true_shinken
2010-10-08, 01:27 PM
I do like those fights as final boss fights.

Not all of the fights leading up to the boss.

Take that as a clue. If the pre-boss fights are like this, this boss is probably very, VERY tough.
I'd work on a escape plan. And hit a Magic-Items-R-Us before coming back.