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zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 07:14 PM
So... I have a rogue pixie.

Said rogue pixie has a dexterity around 30.
Intelligence high
Charisma high
Strength pitiful
Constitution, oddly, high.

Taking into consideration that she currently has hand crossbow focus and point blank shot, what is the most beneficial route for me from here?

Prc wise, obviously I could stay rogue, but I'm looking for optimisation as well as flavour.

She favours using eternal wands of ventriloquism to draw attention away from her real position, sneak attacks with her hand crossbow.

EDIT: Whoops! Books: All core. Online: SRD and Crystal keep. Or...any other source you can actually link to.

Master Thrower
2010-10-06, 07:39 PM
Invisible blade or Master thrower i believe both are good choices. :smallsmile:

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 07:40 PM
Invisible blade or Master thrower i believe both are good choices. :smallsmile:

Throwers out. Due to me using hand crossbow!

Invisible blade...I've not seen before? Details?

Thanks for the help!

HunterOfJello
2010-10-06, 07:40 PM
Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) would be a good place to start.


My immediate thought is a swordsage dip, although that's not exactly core.

~

Avoid Assassin.

There are lots of Psionic PrCs online that favor the rogue. I don't have much experience for those though.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 07:41 PM
Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) would be a good place to start.


My immediate thought is a swordsage dip, although that's not exactly core.

~

Avoid Assassin.

There are lots of Psionic PrCs online that favor the rogue. I don't have much experience for those though.

Avoid assassin? Truly? That was my first choice. lol.

What would sword sage dip get me? Out of sheer curiousity?

HunterOfJello
2010-10-06, 07:46 PM
What would sword sage dip get me? Out of sheer curiousity?

That depends on your level. If you're already at Rogue 4, then you'd get some really awesome stuff like:

One 1st level stance
Six 1st and 2nd level maneuvers

~

I just have a general dislike for Assassin characters. They are better than plain rogue.

Avengers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) are good too (Assassin that isn't chaotic and doesn't have to be evil.)
~

Also, the Rogue's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350) might be useful.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 07:47 PM
That depends on your level. If you're already at Rogue 4, then you'd get some really awesome stuff like:

One 1st level stance
Six 1st and 2nd level maneuvers


~

Also, the Rogue's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350) might be useful.

I love handbooks. lol. Thanks!

Also, I've got no idea what stances or maneuvers do, never read the ToB!

Glimbur
2010-10-06, 07:55 PM
Assassin isn't all bad. Qualification is easy. You lose 4 skill points a level and rogue special abilities. In exchange, you get spells, uncanny dodge, and eventually hide in plain sight (a decent kind, within 10' of shadow). Ignore that ability called Death Attack unless you're setting an ambush... three rounds of combat are a terrible waste for an attack that might miss and might be saved against.

Personally, I'd go for it if I had spell compendium, as assassins got some nice spells there. Otherwise, rogue specials (Crippling Strike, mostly) are too good to give up and the skill point differential hurts.

ToB is pretty handy once you get the hang of it.

Godskook
2010-10-06, 08:03 PM
Avoid assassin? Truly? That was my first choice. lol.

What would sword sage dip get me? Out of sheer curiousity?

You can get 2d6 SA in 1 level if you dip at the right time and pick the right stance.

(That right time would be your 9th level)

In theory, you could get all this, 1/combat(choose 4 at start of day, change with 5 minute's effort):
-Swift action move
-Concentration check instead of save(1/each)
-Swift action greater invisibility till end of turn
-Standard action 50' teleport

And wait, there's more!

Act now, and I'll throw in:
+1 to initiative
+1 to attack rolls with almost any weapon(choose weapons in group)

Admittedly, the class is slightly front-loaded, but you can benefit from leveling it too, since higher level maneuvers scale to be of better use than low-level ones. The highest teleport maneuver is a swift action, for instance, instead of a standard action.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 08:21 PM
You can get 2d6 SA in 1 level if you dip at the right time and pick the right stance.

(That right time would be your 9th level)

In theory, you could get all this, 1/combat(choose 4 at start of day, change with 5 minute's effort):
-Swift action move
-Concentration check instead of save(1/each)
-Swift action greater invisibility till end of turn
-Standard action 50' teleport

And wait, there's more!

Act now, and I'll throw in:
+1 to initiative
+1 to attack rolls with almost any weapon(choose weapons in group)

Admittedly, the class is slightly front-loaded, but you can benefit from leveling it too, since higher level maneuvers scale to be of better use than low-level ones. The highest teleport maneuver is a swift action, for instance, instead of a standard action.

Holy wow. Win for that!

SurlySeraph
2010-10-06, 08:59 PM
Yeah, SS dips are great for rogues.

Another common strategy is to take one level each in a bunch of classes that give +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level. Sneak Attack Fighter variant, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, Assassin, Nightsong Enforcer, etc.

If you want to cast spells as well, a couple levels in Wizard or Sorcerer and then into Unseen Seer is great. Daggerspell Mage also has applications.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 09:01 PM
Yeah, SS dips are great for rogues.

Another common strategy is to take one level each in a bunch of classes that give +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level. Sneak Attack Fighter variant, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, Assassin, Nightsong Enforcer, etc.

If you want to cast spells as well, a couple levels in Wizard or Sorcerer and then into Unseen Seer is great. Daggerspell Mage also has applications.

No interest in casting spells. But you get a win button for the one level dip in multiple classes suggestion!. SS, SAFV, ST, PR, A, NE it is!!

gallagher
2010-10-06, 09:23 PM
i actually like dipping into crusader to get the stance that makes all threatened squares difficult territory. easier to sneak attack. i also prefer the maneuver regaining method

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 09:26 PM
i actually like dipping into crusader to get the stance that makes all threatened squares difficult territory. easier to sneak attack. i also prefer the maneuver regaining method

Yep. Still lost. I think I need to read ToB

Eldariel
2010-10-06, 09:46 PM
i actually like dipping into crusader to get the stance that makes all threatened squares difficult territory. easier to sneak attack. i also prefer the maneuver regaining method

No such stance. There's a stance that makes all movement provoke AoOs. You're thinking of Knight's [PHBII] class feature. It can also be argued that you can only pick 1st level stances on the 1st level you pick in the class. But it can be argued another way as well. *shrug*

Dralnu
2010-10-06, 09:55 PM
Er, don't you have to pick a 1st level stance when you initially dip into swordsage, regardless of IL? You'd have to be swordsage 2 or use a feat for assassin's stance I think.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-06, 09:59 PM
Shadow Dancer, despite some weird prerequisites, gives HiPS at first level, the 10 feet of a shadow, kind which can include your buddies shadow. If you want to be a ranged sneak attacker, it's probably pretty good for a dip.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:01 PM
Shadow Dancer, despite some weird prerequisites, gives HiPS at first level, the 10 feet of a shadow, kind which can include your buddies shadow. If you want to be a ranged sneak attacker, it's probably pretty good for a dip.

I have considered that and it does sound pretty darned good for a one level dip!

jgumbyrx
2010-10-06, 10:09 PM
with a rogue with a dex of 30, 2 feats come immediately to mind:
- crossbow sniper (PHB2)
- dead eye (Dragon Compendium/drag.mag.#304)

that is all. :twocents:

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:10 PM
with a rogue with a dex of 30, 2 feats come immediately to mind:
- crossbow sniper (PHB2)
- dead eye (Dragon Compendium/drag.mag.#304)

that is all. :twocents:

Crossbow Sniper I'm taking. That one stuck out immediately.

But....Dead eye? Do go on.

jgumbyrx
2010-10-06, 10:19 PM
Crossbow Sniper I'm taking. That one stuck out immediately.

But....Dead eye? Do go on.
use FULL dex bonus for ranged wpn with which you have wpn focus (but does nothing in relation to sneak attack, where xbow sniper does)
has additional prereq of point blank shot (which you already seem to have)



for some reason, [ambush] feats spring to mind for this character (more of a flavor thing, but still good)

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:20 PM
use FULL dex bonus for ranged wpn with which you have wpn focus (but does nothing in relation to sneak attack, where xbow sniper does)
has additional prereq of point blank shot (which you already seem to have)



for some reason, [ambush] feats spring to mind for this character (more of a flavor thing, but still good)

Ambush feats? You mean like Spring attack etc?

What does xbow sniper do for sneak attack (apart from range, or is that what you meant?)

Ravens_cry
2010-10-06, 10:31 PM
Why are you using the Hand Crossbow? It's range increment is pathetic and it still, unless you burn ANOTHER feat, needs a move action to reload.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:32 PM
Why are you using the Hand Crossbow? It's range increment is pathetic and it still, unless you burn ANOTHER feat, needs a move action to reload.

Hand Crossbow Focus- Essentially Hand crossbow focus and free action reload in one feat. Non?

true_shinken
2010-10-06, 10:33 PM
Ambush feats? You mean like Spring attack etc?

What does xbow sniper do for sneak attack (apart from range, or is that what you meant?)

He meant range.

Ambush feats trade sneak attack dice for extra effects. Arterial Strike, for example, makes your oppononet bleed for 1 pointo of damage each round. Staggering Strike halves his speed. There are a few more.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:36 PM
He meant range.

Ambush feats trade sneak attack dice for extra effects. Arterial Strike, for example, makes your oppononet bleed for 1 pointo of damage each round. Staggering Strike halves his speed. There are a few more.

Ah yes, I saw those. Was not too fond. I think I'd prefer damage ;-)

Or things that let me beat the crap out of constructs, plants and undead.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-06, 10:36 PM
Hand Crossbow Focus- Essentially Hand crossbow focus and free action reload in one feat. Non?
Sorry, I am only really families with Core and SRD. That sounds nice, but you still have to deal with the dinky 10 foot range increment. And you still have to be proficient with it.

Temotei
2010-10-06, 10:39 PM
Avoid assassin? Truly? That was my first choice.

Assassin's pretty good with spells drawn from sources other than core. I wouldn't throw it out as an option.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:41 PM
Sorry, I am only really families with Core and SRD. That sounds nice, but you still have to deal with the dinky 10 foot range increment. And you still have to be proficient with it.

30 ft range increment. Also, rogues automatically proficient with hand crossbows. Win for Zen.


Assassin's pretty good with spells drawn from sources other than core. I wouldn't throw it out as an option.

Yeah I heard that if I want to take assassin I'd need the spell compendium!

Ravens_cry
2010-10-06, 10:50 PM
30 ft range increment. Also, rogues automatically proficient with hand crossbows. Win for Zen.

Win indeed. My mistake.

Eldariel
2010-10-06, 10:51 PM
This may be of use to you (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.msg15068#msg15068). And yeah, no PrC really does everything a Rogue wants done. As such, I'd just stick to Rogue with maybe some base class dips.

zenanarchist
2010-10-06, 10:54 PM
Win indeed. My mistake.

You still made me consider a short bow instead though. But that hand crossbow focus is just so darned handy. Then add in Crossbow Sniper as well. Then add in rapid shot and dual wielding hand crossbows.

My 30 dexterity.

Attack pattern at level 8 of

+15/+15/+15/+15 all with Sneak attack damage. Yeah. Hand crossbows.

Jack Zander
2010-10-07, 12:52 AM
You still made me consider a short bow instead though. But that hand crossbow focus is just so darned handy. Then add in Crossbow Sniper as well. Then add in rapid shot and dual wielding hand crossbows.

My 30 dexterity.

Attack pattern at level 8 of

+15/+15/+15/+15 all with Sneak attack damage. Yeah. Hand crossbows.

Now you just need to figure out how to reload them with your hands full. Also, I think you should only get 3 attacks, not 4.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 12:54 AM
Now you just need to figure out how to reload them with your hands full. Also, I think you should only get 3 attacks, not 4.

......Oh G dammit!!! I forgot the reload.... I need another arm *strokes chin* How do I get another arm.

Road_Runner
2010-10-07, 01:03 AM
......Oh G dammit!!! I forgot the reload.... I need another arm *strokes chin* How do I get another arm.

From the Archery Handbook....


"You can also Two-Weapon Fight with these in a multitude of ways. You can use Gloves of Storing in both hands (or one hand if DM allows switching hands as a free action, which should be possible with Quick Draw) to Free Action-vanish one bow to load the other (likewise a free action), then free action call the vanished weapon, shoot the other, make the one which shot vanish, load the other, etc. allowing you to take full iteratives provided that your DM doesn't put a stop to your Free Action-madness. Ghostly Reload-spell [RoTD Pg. 113] gets you 10 shots of free reloads with both hands too. There's also the weapon ability Quick Loading [MiC Pg. 41], which gives the weapon its own extradimensional space that holds 100 bolts and loads them as a free action for Light Crossbows and Hand Crossbows, likewise allowing you to dual wield Light Crossbows. Bottomline, you can find a way to get two of these go off with iteratives. If nothing else, have a ton of them with Quick Draw and drop the shot ones, drawing a new one for each separate attack."

Hope that helps :\

Greenish
2010-10-07, 02:45 AM
Also, I think you should only get 3 attacks, not 4.Two normal iteratives, one from offhand, fourth with Rapid Shot.

Soranar
2010-10-07, 02:53 AM
to reload the crossbows while dualwielding

best option is an arm graft (50 000 I think)

since reloading is a free action, 1 extra arm should be enough (and creepier IMO)

there's always the unseen servant (maybe a wand?)

Curmudgeon
2010-10-07, 10:03 AM
You can use Gloves of Storing in both hands
No, you can't. From Magic Item Compendium, page 218:
Some body slots are described as a matched pair of body parts (such as arms, feet, or hands). If an item uses one of these body slots, it takes up both "halves" of the body slot even if worn on only one of the pair. For example, a glove of storing takes up the entire hands body slot, even though it's only one glove.

true_shinken
2010-10-07, 11:17 AM
No, you can't. From Magic Item Compendium, page 218:
Man, I never noticed that. Sucky rule.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-07, 11:32 AM
Isn't there a weapon property, only +1 I believe, that allows you to store a few hundred bolts in a extra-dimensional space that allows automatic reloading?
It's probably in the Magic Item Compendium.

molten_dragon
2010-10-07, 11:35 AM
You can get 2d6 SA in 1 level if you dip at the right time and pick the right stance.

(That right time would be your 9th level)

In theory, you could get all this, 1/combat(choose 4 at start of day, change with 5 minute's effort):
-Swift action move
-Concentration check instead of save(1/each)
-Swift action greater invisibility till end of turn
-Standard action 50' teleport

And wait, there's more!

Act now, and I'll throw in:
+1 to initiative
+1 to attack rolls with almost any weapon(choose weapons in group)

Admittedly, the class is slightly front-loaded, but you can benefit from leveling it too, since higher level maneuvers scale to be of better use than low-level ones. The highest teleport maneuver is a swift action, for instance, instead of a standard action.

There's another stance that makes it so any time you and an ally are both adjacent to the same creature, you both get flanking benefits (including SA).

You also get easier access to the ridiculously awesome shadow blade feat.

Honestly, a 1-level swordsage dip does more to power up a rogue than almost anything else I can think of.

Telonius
2010-10-07, 11:44 AM
Personally I'm a fan of a one-level dip in Master of Masks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3) for the Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons is a really nice bonus for a Rogue.

There's also the classic Rogue/Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw combination. Three levels of Swashbuckler will give you Int to damage with finesse-able weapons, and you won't lose out on sneak attack progression. Only thing you'll lose is a few skill points (and the feat you used on Daring Outlaw).

Greenish
2010-10-07, 11:56 AM
Isn't there a weapon property, only +1 I believe, that allows you to store a few hundred bolts in a extra-dimensional space that allows automatic reloading?MIC has Quick Loading or something to that effect, which creates an extradimensional space for 100 bolts. It doesn't change reloading from requiring two hands though.

Jack Zander
2010-10-07, 12:37 PM
Two normal iteratives, one from offhand, fourth with Rapid Shot.

Oops. Thought they didn't get an extra attack until level 9. In any case, all those attacks aren't at +15. He gets three at +15 and 1 at +10. Assuming of course he finds a way to reload.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 05:01 PM
From the Archery Handbook....


"You can also Two-Weapon Fight with these in a multitude of ways. You can use Gloves of Storing in both hands (or one hand if DM allows switching hands as a free action, which should be possible with Quick Draw) to Free Action-vanish one bow to load the other (likewise a free action), then free action call the vanished weapon, shoot the other, make the one which shot vanish, load the other, etc. allowing you to take full iteratives provided that your DM doesn't put a stop to your Free Action-madness. Ghostly Reload-spell [RoTD Pg. 113] gets you 10 shots of free reloads with both hands too. There's also the weapon ability Quick Loading [MiC Pg. 41], which gives the weapon its own extradimensional space that holds 100 bolts and loads them as a free action for Light Crossbows and Hand Crossbows, likewise allowing you to dual wield Light Crossbows. Bottomline, you can find a way to get two of these go off with iteratives. If nothing else, have a ton of them with Quick Draw and drop the shot ones, drawing a new one for each separate attack."

Hope that helps :\

I loved this, however the below quotes seem to nullify it's awesomeness. I might have to ask the DM to homebrew that the Quick Loading extra dimensional space loads right into the weapon. Which seems...."normal" and balanced.


to reload the crossbows while dualwielding

best option is an arm graft (50 000 I think)

since reloading is a free action, 1 extra arm should be enough (and creepier IMO)

there's always the unseen servant (maybe a wand?)

That is creepy. Eternal wand of unseen servant? Not a bad idea.


Isn't there a weapon property, only +1 I believe, that allows you to store a few hundred bolts in a extra-dimensional space that allows automatic reloading?
It's probably in the Magic Item Compendium.

See above. It'll need a modification though.


There's another stance that makes it so any time you and an ally are both adjacent to the same creature, you both get flanking benefits (including SA).

You also get easier access to the ridiculously awesome shadow blade feat.

Honestly, a 1-level swordsage dip does more to power up a rogue than almost anything else I can think of.

Ok one level dip in sword sage it is. For sure. At....is it ninth?


Personally I'm a fan of a one-level dip in Master of Masks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3) for the Gladiator mask. Proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons is a really nice bonus for a Rogue.

There's also the classic Rogue/Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw combination. Three levels of Swashbuckler will give you Int to damage with finesse-able weapons, and you won't lose out on sneak attack progression. Only thing you'll lose is a few skill points (and the feat you used on Daring Outlaw).

Swashbuckler doesn't lose me SA progression? Nice...Also my Int is quite high so that's not bad at all..


MIC has Quick Loading or something to that effect, which creates an extradimensional space for 100 bolts. It doesn't change reloading from requiring two hands though.

See above. But yes, I think this is what I'll need.


Oops. Thought they didn't get an extra attack until level 9. In any case, all those attacks aren't at +15. He gets three at +15 and 1 at +10. Assuming of course he finds a way to reload.


Why would 1 be at +10?

Jack Zander
2010-10-07, 05:15 PM
Why would 1 be at +10?

Because you get one attack at +6 BAB, another at +6 BAB from rapid shot, a third at +6 BAB from TWF, and then you get your iterative attack at +1 BAB.

true_shinken
2010-10-07, 06:03 PM
MiC also has the Spare Hand item. It's a lot cheaper than an arm graft and lot less disgusting.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 06:07 PM
Spare Hand.....What is MiC? I think I may have to purchase some of these books lol

Grynning
2010-10-07, 06:50 PM
There's also the classic Rogue/Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw combination. Three levels of Swashbuckler will give you Int to damage with finesse-able weapons, and you won't lose out on sneak attack progression. Only thing you'll lose is a few skill points (and the feat you used on Daring Outlaw).

Insightful Strike (the ability in question) does not work on ranged attacks.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 06:51 PM
Insightful Strike (the ability in question) does not work on ranged attacks.

Well there goes that

Il_Vec
2010-10-07, 06:53 PM
Insightful Strike (the ability in question) does not work on ranged attacks.



There's also the classic Rogue/Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw combination. Three levels of Swashbuckler will give you Int to damage with finesse-able weapons, and you won't lose out on sneak attack progression. Only thing you'll lose is a few skill points (and the feat you used on Daring Outlaw).


Emphasis mine.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 06:55 PM
Emphasis mine.

I think he was pointing it out for my benefit as I stated about the hand crossbows. :smallsmile:

Il_Vec
2010-10-07, 07:07 PM
If you manage to get your hands on a ToB, you'll see there the Aptitude weapon enhancement. The reading is kinda ambiguous, but you maybe could aply Insightful Strike to an Aptitude hand crossbow.

And since it looks like no one anwsered that, MiC is the Magic Item Compendium.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 07:08 PM
If you manage to get your hands on a ToB, you'll see there the Aptitude weapon enhancement. The reading is kinda ambiguous, but you maybe could aply Insightful Strike to an Aptitude hand crossbow.

And since it looks like no one anwsered that, MiC is the Magic Item Compendium.

Alright, list of purchasing is up to ToB and Magic Item Compendium. My fiance will hate me

Skorj
2010-10-07, 08:21 PM
......Oh G dammit!!! I forgot the reload.... I need another arm *strokes chin* How do I get another arm.

See PersonMan's extremely comprehensive list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127463)of ways to get extra attacks. You can search it for ways to get extra hands/arms.

Note that Unseen Servant can only apply 20 pounds of force, which would be a fairly wimpy crossbow.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 08:23 PM
See PersonMan's extremely comprehensive list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127463)of ways to get extra attacks. You can search it for ways to get extra hands/arms.

Note that Unseen Servant can only apply 20 pounds of force, which would be a fairly wimpy crossbow.

Nice link!

Also, I think unseen servant was for reloading my crossbow for me.

Skorj
2010-10-07, 08:31 PM
Nice link!

Also, I think unseen servant was for reloading my crossbow for me.

You need a way to pull back the string (or cocking lever) on that crossbow to load it. Typical modern ones seem to have a 50-80 pound pull. A crossbow with a 20 pound pull wouldn't have a 30' range increment, I wouldn't think.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 08:33 PM
You need a way to pull back the string (or cocking lever) on that crossbow to load it. Typical modern ones seem to have a 50-80 pound pull. A crossbow with a 20 pound pull wouldn't have a 30' range increment, I wouldn't think.

A hand crossbow has an 80 pound pull? Holy wow that's a lot...

But you might be right. Thus killing the strategy of the unseen servant.

No thank you's for you. :smallyuk:

Leon
2010-10-07, 10:22 PM
Or you could ignore the force of the pull as the rules for reloading a crossbow dont factor it.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 10:23 PM
Or you could ignore the force of the pull as the rules for reloading a crossbow dont factor it.

Win button for you sir!

Ravens_cry
2010-10-07, 10:39 PM
Eh, that's cheesing a bit too fine for my taste. Even though it doesn't break things too much, abusing the rules as rules is distasteful to me.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 10:40 PM
Eh, that's cheesing a bit too fine for my taste. Even though it doesn't break things too much, abusing the rules as rules is distasteful to me.

Which bit? Unseen Servant?

Ravens_cry
2010-10-07, 11:01 PM
Which bit? Unseen Servant?
Yeah, abusing the fact that the pull of a hand crossbow isn't mentioned, it can do it. Now, if someone could show me that the hand crossbow could do it, hey, it's great bypass, but otherwise I don't like it.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 11:05 PM
Yeah, abusing the fact that the pull of a hand crossbow isn't mentioned, it can do it. Now, if someone could show me that the hand crossbow could do it, hey, it's great bypass, but otherwise I don't like it.

Totally fair call. However the crossbow can't manipulate objects either. An unseen servant can. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2010-10-07, 11:11 PM
Totally fair call. However the crossbow can't manipulate objects either. An unseen servant can. :smalltongue:
I'm fairly sure you understood my meaning, ya cheeky booger. Anyway, according to at least one article (http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/143718.html), a reconstructed hand crossbow had a draw weight of 90 lb, another said 80. Both are beyond the ken of an Unseen Servant.

zenanarchist
2010-10-07, 11:13 PM
I'm fairly sure you understood my meaning, ya cheeky booger. Anyway, according to at least one article (http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/143718.html), a reconstructed hand crossbow had a draw weight of 90 lb, another said 80. Both are beyond the ken of an Unseen Servant.

*grins* I did, I did. I jest. I do totally see where you're coming from. But worse abuses of optimisation have occured so I MIGHT try and swing it. We'll see.

I'm already asking for eternal wands of ventriloquism to ACTUALLY be eternal.

Telonius
2010-10-08, 07:49 AM
Of course, if you take the Master of Masks level, you can get proficiency in Repeating crossbows. Pushing a lever to reload seems like something an Unseen Servant could do.

Greenish
2010-10-08, 09:23 AM
Even if an Unseen Servant can reload crossbows, it can only do it twice a round (since it's a move action without the feat, which the servant won't have), and you're planning to shoot three times with just the main hand.

Duke of URL
2010-10-08, 09:30 AM
Yeah, abusing the fact that the pull of a hand crossbow isn't mentioned, it can do it. Now, if someone could show me that the hand crossbow could do it, hey, it's great bypass, but otherwise I don't like it.

Remember, too that we're talking about a small hand crossbow (pixie, size small), so it's going to have a significantly lower pull than a regular crossbow (for both smaller base weapon size, and then dropping from medium to small).

lsfreak
2010-10-08, 10:23 AM
Remember, too that we're talking about a small hand crossbow (pixie, size small), so it's going to have a significantly lower pull than a regular crossbow (for both smaller base weapon size, and then dropping from medium to small).

And also keep in mind that any real crossbow wouldn't be able to be loaded by as fast as they say in D&D. If a hand crossbow has an 80-pound pull, imagine what a light crossbow has. Yet you can apparently reload a crossbow 6-8 times a round without any problems. As a result, I'd have no problem with letting an unseen servant or three help with crossbow reloading.

zenanarchist
2010-10-08, 08:15 PM
And also keep in mind that any real crossbow wouldn't be able to be loaded by as fast as they say in D&D. If a hand crossbow has an 80-pound pull, imagine what a light crossbow has. Yet you can apparently reload a crossbow 6-8 times a round without any problems. As a result, I'd have no problem with letting an unseen servant or three help with crossbow reloading.


Remember, too that we're talking about a small hand crossbow (pixie, size small), so it's going to have a significantly lower pull than a regular crossbow (for both smaller base weapon size, and then dropping from medium to small).

Win for you guys. Forgot to take into account that the hand crossbow is small!!