Star Wars: The Old Republic (MMO) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

cdstephens

2010-10-06, 10:22 PM

As many of you may or may not know, Bioware is developing the MMO Star Wars the Old Republc for release this spring. I didn't see a TOR thread, so I figured I'd make one.

Most of the info can be found on www.swtor.com

Backstory: This takes a few thousand years before the movies, and 300 years after Knights of the Old Republic (if you don't know what that is, shame on you). Essentially, it turns out that a Sith Emperor, who is 1000 years old, has been hiding out in the Unknown Regions ever since the Sith were defeated a 1000 years before (Hyperspace War I think, not sure). Turns out the Emperor has been manipulating events to suit his favor for invasion, including the Jedi Civil War. Yes, this means Revan was a pawn of the Emperor.

So, the Great War happened between the Republic and the Empire. Ultimately, the Republic lost after the Sith Empire tricked them into thinking the Empire wanted peace, and immediately afterwards attacking Coruscant. After holding Coruscant hostage, they negotiated a peace treaty called the Treaty of Coruscant, which essentially gave the Empire half of the galaxy and ended the war officially. However, there's still a Cold War going on, proxy wars are being fought, etc. The political climate changed afterwards; a new time system was implemented (years before or after the treaty, BTC or ATC), and the Jedi exiled themselves to Tython, their homeworld, because everyone thought it was their fault the war was lost.

The game takes place a decade or two ATC, with the war ready to start back up again. Players will be able to play as either the Republic or Empire. Republic classes include the Trooper, Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular (think Yoda), and Smuggler. The Empire has the Bounty Hunter, the Sith Inquisitor (think Palpatine), the Imperial Agent (think James Bond with a sniper), and the Sith Warrior (Darth Vader). Classes are designed to be balanced as this is a combat based game (more like WoW, less like SWG). As such, a Trooper can kill a Sith Warrior.

Each class has their own unique story that is completely voice acted, including your character. The game utilizes the Mass Effect wheel to make conversation decisions, which do affect the game. There is a light and dark side meter for all classes, and no class shares class content. That is, to level up as a Jedi would be completely different from a Trooper, which would be even more different than a Sith.

Raids, crafting, guilds, endgame, PvP, battlegrounds, and such will all exist in the game, like any other regular MMO. This is a theme park game, not a sandbox. This is not SWG2. This is not a WoW clone.

If you want specific info, go to these threads:

http://swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=44704
http://swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=188836

If you still have more questions, since I'm pretty much obsessed with the game, you can go ahead and ask me. For the curious ones, my profile on the website. http://swtor.com/community/member.php?u=170008

So, here's hoping we can get a lively discussion going! :D

Philistine

2010-10-06, 11:05 PM

I don't know how much lively discussion there's going to be here, tbh - the game is still ~6 months out, and does have its own forums, after all. :smallamused:

Still... if you really want to attract attention, expanding the thread title might draw more eyes. Also, some people visit this site from workplace computers which are blocked from accessing "game-specific" sites (a concern that pops up a lot in the WoW thread, for example); for those people, it's helpful if you can repost (or at least summarize) information posted at other sites so that those people can, you know, see it.

All that aside, I'm seriously considering picking this up when it comes out. Partly from SW fandom, partly from BW fandom... but mostly because I know some other people who are also likely to play. Said social consideration means I'll be playing Sith if I play; as for class and specialization, Sith Juggernaught looks like being a good fit for my preferred playstyle.

cdstephens

2010-10-06, 11:13 PM

Pronounceable

2010-10-07, 02:47 AM

Moofaa

2010-10-07, 05:00 AM

So the sith had conquered half the galaxy before. Wonder how I never heard of that before... :smallannoyed: Oh well. Force works in mysterious ways.:smallsigh:

I'm not playing this game. No. I'm a Bioware fan, but no. I have nothing but loathing and hate for Lucas since ****ing up of KotoR2. Lucas isn't getting a single penny from me ever again. I'd only consider it if there was a way to illegally play on their servers, mooching off their bandwidth or something, which would hurt them (however slightly). But I'm certain BW isn't stupid enough to let something like that to happen.Grudge? You don't know half of it >_>

I thought it was pretty well-known established canon that way far back before the trilogy time period the Sith had taken control of most of the galaxy at one point. Their downfall is what actually led to the current Sith rule of one master, one apprentice because their infighting when there were thousands of Sith is what mainly brought them down.

I'm looking forwards to the game, it is still going to be an MMO with crappy grinding for gear but if they are really putting as much effort into story/gameplay as it seems they are I will definately stick around.

Comet

2010-10-07, 06:24 AM

This is the only MMO I have been even slightly interested in since forever. Mainly because it promises an actual story and as such content that isn't just a glorified chatroom with repetitive "gameplay".

SmartAlec

2010-10-07, 06:44 AM

ZeroNumerous

2010-10-07, 07:00 AM

So the sith had conquered half the galaxy before. Wonder how I never heard of that before... :smallannoyed: Oh well. Force works in mysterious ways.:smallsigh:

You should probably read more comics (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Darkness).

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-07, 07:13 AM

I thought it was pretty well-known established canon that way far back before the trilogy time period the Sith had taken control of most of the galaxy at one point. Their downfall is what actually led to the current Sith rule of one master, one apprentice because their infighting when there were thousands of Sith is what mainly brought them down.

Yeah, but that's 2500 years after when this game is set.

hamishspence

2010-10-07, 07:19 AM

Essentially, it turns out that a Sith Emperor, who is 1000 years old, has been hiding out in the Unknown Regions ever since the Sith were defeated a 1000 years before (Hyperspace War I think, not sure).

This:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

The Great Hyperspace War comics cover the events leading up to the fall of the Old Sith Empire.

Dienekes

2010-10-07, 07:30 AM

I am divided. On one hand, it is the chance to play as Darth ****ing Vader without also being tied to all the idiocy he went through as a child and young adult, so potentially one of the greatest fictional villains ever. Also, it is Bioware, creators of some of the best stories in gaming.

On the other it's an MMO. I despise gaming with other people, especially those I don't know. And I will not pay monthly for a game that do to my schedule I'll only get a couple hours of playing time in per month anyway.

So no, not gonna get it. But it does look fun.

Whammydill

2010-10-07, 09:09 AM

I will be playing this from launch I guarantee you. I will be much fanboy and lashing out violently and irrationally at all who stand in my way of this game....not really, but I do look forward to it.

I'm done with MMO's for now hopefully my hiatus will invigorate my desire to play them by time this comes out. Hopefully enough to withstand the onslaught of meeting and being annoyed by players with character names like Ahnuhkin, Anahkin, Dharth Vadur, Palpityne, Bowbuh Fhet, Nohmi Sunryder, Drizz't (you know someone will, and they will dual wield lightsabers,) and crap like that. I hate when people can't be original with their character names.

cdstephens

2010-10-07, 09:15 AM

So the sith had conquered half the galaxy before. Wonder how I never heard of that before... :smallannoyed: Oh well. Force works in mysterious ways.:smallsigh:

I'm not playing this game. No. I'm a Bioware fan, but no. I have nothing but loathing and hate for Lucas since ****ing up of KotoR2. Lucas isn't getting a single penny from me ever again. I'd only consider it if there was a way to illegally play on their servers, mooching off their bandwidth or something, which would hurt them (however slightly). But I'm certain BW isn't stupid enough to let something like that to happen.Grudge? You don't know half of it >_>

The only part Lucas Arts is doing is providing the sounds and voice overs, and making sure the canon fits. Neither EA nor Lucas Arts are touching the actual development process, and the fact that Lucas Arts gave BW around 6 years to develop says something.

Squark

2010-10-07, 01:47 PM

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-10-07, 02:29 PM

Of course, the large number of idiots who comment on each update (Over 50% of which is "Join My Guild!" spam) don't exactly inspire confidence, but I'm confident Bioware will put a couple of servers in which RP is mandatory.

Given how hard it is to enforce RP from an official standpoint, I very much doubt this. HBut with a bit of luck there will be servers tagged "RP", which has always proven an excellent deterrent to the more obnoxious* kinds of MMO player specimens.

Overall though I'm quite excited to see where this game goes, even if I'm not quite a fan of the grafic style... can't quite put my finger on why though.

*From a certain point of view.

cdstephens

2010-10-07, 03:26 PM

Mando Knight

2010-10-07, 03:37 PM

I'm not playing this game. No. I'm a Bioware fan, but no. I have nothing but loathing and hate for Lucas since ****ing up of KotoR2. Lucas isn't getting a single penny from me ever again.

Again with the Lucas hate. :smallsigh:

Yes, LucasArts pressured Obsidian to publish the game before it was finished. However, I doubt that it was directly George Lucas's fault in any way at all. He was busy with something else (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_III:_Revenge_of_the_Sith) at that point, remember?

kyoryu

2010-10-07, 03:41 PM

FWIW, the studio making this is largely made of ex-SWG guys. I don't know how many actual BioWare (as in, the guys that made the BioWare games we know and love) are actually working on it.

cdstephens

2010-10-07, 03:52 PM

FWIW, the studio making this is largely made of ex-SWG guys. I don't know how many actual BioWare (as in, the guys that made the BioWare games we know and love) are actually working on it.

Their staff has guys from BW, SWG, Mythic (WAR), and others. Mythic is helping with the PvP. All of the writers are from BW. Example: Drew Karpyshyn, who was the big guy for writing the KOTOR story and also wrote the Darth Bane novels is working on the Jedi Knight story. Also note that there are bunch of different type of players on the team. Some of them are hardcore raiders. Some of them are crafters. Etc.

Also, Damion Schubart is the lead combat designer. I suggest taking a look at his blog here, http://www.zenofdesign.com/, and also this new presentation he just gave on how grinding sucks. http://www.askajedi.com/2010/10/07/gdc-online-damion-schubert-on-the-grind/#comment-409

cdstephens

2010-11-15, 12:07 AM

Crafting just got released. Very, very nice looking.

http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/crew-skills

Essentially, the grindy part of crafting (spamming a button over and over again), is gone. You can have your companions gather materials as well as you yourself gather them. This makes crafting more accessible.

At the same time, the crafting will be complex and difficult to the point where the master crafter may have recipes that only 1 or 2 people in an ENTIRE SERVER could have, and apparently crafters will be able to "mark" the items they make somehow, such that you know who crafted your loot for you. Since you can only choose one crafting skill, players are NOT self sufficient, and have to rely on other people to benefit fully from the system. This in itself creates a healthy and supportive economy and environment.

Arcanoi

2010-11-15, 12:33 AM

You should probably read more comics (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Darkness).

It made me sad when Bane never ended up screaming "KAAAAAAAAN!!" multiples times. Truly, truly sad.

Klose_the_Sith

2010-11-15, 03:41 AM

Just a word of warning- The game has garnered a bit of a hatedom from people who are convinced "It's an MMORPG, it's going to suck," and refuse to take the same company that mad Baldur's Gate 2, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age at there word (that it will be possible to play through the majority of the game by yourself, and how much detail they are putting into the story).

My main problem is that it's being built as an MMO without offering the sort of customisation I'd be hoping for in a Star Wars one. It'll probably demand a constant connection to the internet (which I don't have, nor do I even have a fast one) and the sheer betrayal I feel of turning my tasty xbox available RPG's into a PC exclusive MMO I'll never play.

There aren't enough words for how much I wanted a KOTOR 3, and now I never will. That's why I'm not happy with TOR.

EDIT:

At the same time, the crafting will be complex and difficult to the point where the master crafter may have recipes that only 1 or 2 people in an ENTIRE SERVER could have, and apparently crafters will be able to "mark" the items they make somehow, such that you know who crafted your loot for you. Since you can only choose one crafting skill, players are NOT self sufficient, and have to rely on other people to benefit fully from the system. This in itself creates a healthy and supportive economy and environment.

See, stuff like this. I get that it'll probably be great for the online players, but if I play it would never be online, so I get to craft a tiny amount of items and suffer because of my decision to play in this 'fully supported' way.

I'm also not sure how you're going to ever create a healthy economy in an MMO. EVE did okay, I guess, but that economy is just an excuse to pull scams.

cdstephens

2010-11-15, 03:52 AM

My main problem is that it's being built as an MMO without offering the sort of customisation I'd be hoping for in a Star Wars one. It'll probably demand a constant connection to the internet (which I don't have, nor do I even have a fast one) and the sheer betrayal I feel of turning my tasty xbox available RPG's into a PC exclusive MMO I'll never play.

There aren't enough words for how much I wanted a KOTOR 3, and now I never will. That's why I'm not happy with TOR.

Your disappointment is perfectly understandable. If it makes you feel any better, the reason KOTOR 3 was never made is because LA canceled it.

I would, however, argue that playing TOR solo would be as enjoyable, if not moreso, than playing KOTOR or KOTOR 2 simply because of the way they're handling development compared to, say, WoW.

Internet connection would be required though, and that is a real bummer. :smallfrown:

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-15, 05:02 AM

At the same time, the crafting will be complex and difficult to the point where the master crafter may have recipes that only 1 or 2 people in an ENTIRE SERVER could have, and apparently crafters will be able to "mark" the items they make somehow, such that you know who crafted your loot for you. Since you can only choose one crafting skill, players are NOT self sufficient, and have to rely on other people to benefit fully from the system. This in itself creates a healthy and supportive economy and environment.

Got a source that explains how the crafting actually works? Because all the linked page does is explain how you can have your crewmates do stuff for you while you do other stuff. Which is pretty neat, but doesn't tell me what I'll be doing when I wanna kick back and craft some stuff.

And I have to disagree with the statement about the healthy economy. If certain recipes are know by only 1 or 2 players on the server, that means those players have a monopoly on a certain good. Monopolies never lead to healthy* economies.

*Mind, I've never been too sure what a healthy economy even is. In the context of an MMO, I'd take it to mean that supply is such that all, or almost all items of interest are buyable at short notice and that demand is such that those items can be sold to another player for an amount well in excess of their "vendor" value.

Ranielle

2010-11-15, 06:19 AM

No amount of background or story will save bad gameplay. I'll see if it's any good when it's out. There has been too many promising mmos that's been ruined because of their state at release.

Klose_the_Sith

2010-11-15, 06:19 AM

Your disappointment is perfectly understandable. If it makes you feel any better, the reason KOTOR 3 was never made is because LA canceled it.

Between KOTOR 3 and Battlefront 3 I'm starting to think that the better Star Wars games aren't meant to have more than two iterations :smallwink:

I would, however, argue that playing TOR solo would be as enjoyable, if not moreso, than playing KOTOR or KOTOR 2 simply because of the way they're handling development compared to, say, WoW.

Really? Hmm ...

Last time I saw gameplay vids it did look pretty awesome, but it just doesn't seem that likely to me that they'd be able to sustain an epic campaign ala KOTOR when they have to host it for squillions of noob-farmers all at once.

If it does work and I somehow develop the capacity to play then I'd do so, but I just don't see it happening.

Internet connection would be required though, and that is a real bummer. :smallfrown:

A'course they're (in theory) working to upgrade internet in all cities across the country ...

... in time for me to be moving to a rural area come 2012 :smallamused:

EDIT:
And I have to disagree with the statement about the healthy economy. If certain recipes are know by only 1 or 2 players on the server, that means those players have a monopoly on a certain good. Monopolies never lead to healthy* economies.

Actually I'd say that in the context of an MMO it's less likely to lead to a Monopoly - no one person can control all of trading, they have to niche in here and there. It's by no means perfect, but it means that no matter how far you max out your level infinity billions you still won't be able to get exclusive rights of trade and etc.

Sure you can dominate a niche, in theory, but the way it's been set-up is a great enabler of competition.

Whether or not competition is going to work well in a video game is, of course, a different matter entirely.

*Mind, I've never been too sure what a healthy economy even is. In the context of an MMO, I'd take it to mean that supply is such that all, or almost all items of interest are buyable at short notice and that demand is such that those items can be sold to another player for an amount well in excess of their "vendor" value.

Inflation as a healthy economy? :smallconfused:

Although then again, in MMO's inflation is a myth so rargoblargoblarg you fail economics forever vidjagame developers ...

But then again, what else is new? :smallwink:

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-15, 08:46 AM

Actually I'd say that in the context of an MMO it's less likely to lead to a Monopoly - no one person can control all of trading, they have to niche in here and there. It's by no means perfect, but it means that no matter how far you max out your level infinity billions you still won't be able to get exclusive rights of trade and etc.

A monopoly over a single good is still a monopoly. Unless the game's market is seriously broken, a single individual is not going to have much control over it's entirety. While control over a small section of it is usually easy enough, being the only person on a server with the ability to produce a given good guarantees control over it.

Sure you can dominate a niche, in theory, but the way it's been set-up is a great enabler of competition.

No, no it isn't. If I'm the only person in the server able to produce X, I have no competition in the niche for X. It's that simple.

Whether or not competition is going to work well in a video game is, of course, a different matter entirely.

Market competition is good from a buyer's perspective. It keeps prices down. It's bad from a sellers perspective because it eats into your profits. Net result is zero if you buy and sell (more or less), but in my experience a large percentage of MMO players only buy.

Inflation as a healthy economy? :smallconfused:

Although then again, in MMO's inflation is a myth so rargoblargoblarg you fail economics forever vidjagame developers ...

But then again, what else is new? :smallwink:

In fairness, the economics tends to be a tad outside the usual competencies of a videogame developer. I think they've been getting better at it, though.

But I guess my definition was a bit lacking... But the point I was trying to get to was that a good game economy encourages people to sell their raw meterials to other players rather than destroy them by vendoring. If it doesn't, you're killing supply and forcing crafters to farm their own materials which generally leads to diminished supply of crafted goods and increased prices.

Klose_the_Sith

2010-11-15, 09:02 AM

A monopoly over a single good is still a monopoly. Unless the game's market is seriously broken, a single individual is not going to have much control over it's entirety. While control over a small section of it is usually easy enough, being the only person on a server with the ability to produce a given good guarantees control over it.

But by forcing people to specialise you (providing the ceiling of accomplishment isn't bizarrely high) create competition. When there's only a handful of different crafting skill trees, I can guarantee you that there won't be a single person on a server capable of holding a monopoly.

When you have a half dozen skills to max out, only the hardcore players are going to get there.

When, however, you only have one skill to max out it's pretty much open game.

Market competition is good from a buyer's perspective. It keeps prices down. It's bad from a sellers perspective because it eats into your profits. Net result is zero if you buy and sell (more or less), but in my experience a large percentage of MMO players only buy.

Ooof, painful oversimplification :smalltongue:

(And there are serious problems with a consumption based economy, in the real world anyway.)

That said, the question I posed was if a free market would work well in a videogame, mostly just because I was wondering if the sort of controls available would be a good testing model for various sorts of planned economies (it wouldn't work for a number of things, sadly, but man that'd be cool :smalleek:).

In fairness, the economics tends to be a tad outside the usual competencies of a videogame developer. I think they've been getting better at it, though.

Well someone didn't play Fallout 3 :smalltongue:

But I guess my definition was a bit lacking... But the point I was trying to get to was that a good game economy encourages people to sell their raw meterials to other players rather than destroy them by vendoring. If it doesn't, you're killing supply and forcing crafters to farm their own materials which generally leads to diminished supply of crafted goods and increased prices.

Ah, I see what you mean.

The misunderstanding came from your usage of the term 'Vendor Prices'

For a healthy MMO economy, we are in agreement that players sell to players rather than storefronts. It's just a bit tricky with the phrasing, but it sounded like you wanted items to sell to player for more than they cost in stores :smallbiggrin:

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-15, 10:44 AM

But by forcing people to specialise you (providing the ceiling of accomplishment isn't bizarrely high) create competition. When there's only a handful of different crafting skill trees, I can guarantee you that there won't be a single person on a server capable of holding a monopoly.

When you have a half dozen skills to max out, only the hardcore players are going to get there.

When, however, you only have one skill to max out it's pretty much open game.

I don't follow the logic here.

How is it possible that by reducing the number of people able to produce a given product, you increase competition? Consider two flower sellers, both selling red and blue roses, and the same two flower sellers, one selling red roses exclusively and the other only blue ones.

In the first case, both are competing to sell both of their products. In the other... competition in increased? How? :smallconfused:

Ooof, painful oversimplification :smalltongue:

But essentially correct, yes? My background in economics is virtually non-existant, although game-based economies are something of a hobby of mine.

(And there are serious problems with a consumption based economy, in the real world anyway.)

I'm not at all sure what "consuption based economy" even means. :smallsmile:

Ah, I see what you mean.

The misunderstanding came from your usage of the term 'Vendor Prices'

For a healthy MMO economy, we are in agreement that players sell to players rather than storefronts. It's just a bit tricky with the phrasing, but it sounded like you wanted items to sell to player for more than they cost in stores :smallbiggrin:

We agree then. Although I find it hilarious when I buy stuff off players and then sell it to the stores for a profit. That's in City of Heroes, if you're curious. Boy does that game have a wonky economy.

Mando Knight

2010-11-15, 11:32 AM

Between KOTOR 3 and Battlefront 3 I'm starting to think that the better Star Wars games aren't meant to have more than two iterations :smallwink:

It's a new paradigm, though: Dark Forces managed to pull out three games, an expansion pack, and a spinoff (DF, DF2:JK, Mysteries of the Sith, JK2:JO, JK:JA).

Rogue Squadron almost pulled off 3, but Rebel Strike was iffy (its best parts were a bonus mission, a way-too-short mission, and too-short sections of other missions... and Rogue Leader as 2-player Co-op).

Force Unleashed, however, appears to be setting itself up for a 3rd part, even though TFU2 by pretty much all accounts was overall even weaker than the original.

Back to TOR: I like the idea of the crew skills. After all, half of what I used Bao-Dur and T3-M4 for was crafting, since between them only the Stealth and Persuasion skills were unrepresented (and everything but Treat Injury was basically doubled up)... which several other characters (Mira, Visas, Kreia, Atton, the Exile) could cover quite easily. The only reason I didn't use T3 for crafting in KotOR 1 was because there wasn't a crafting system. (On the other hand, KotOR 1 gave Weapon Finesse: Lightsabers as a free feat and was more complete and less buggy when published. But I've patched TSL to Byss and back, so it's actually a bit stronger than KotOR 1 now, all told...)

Squark

2010-11-15, 12:12 PM

As far as monopoly goes- They claim that while everyone will be able to do basic craft as you play, truly dedicated crafters will be able to excel in their field and make a decent profit through high demand for their skills. We'll see if this is actually the case.

On one of my earlier comments- Yes, I realise it's an MMO. But Bioware has always been excellent at developing single player campaigns, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if you want to play the game primarily by yourself, you can do that. On the other hand, if you want to have a blast with a few buddies, you can do that to. Or if you want to command a large guild, that also seems to be possible.

cdstephens

2010-11-15, 12:45 PM

No amount of background or story will save bad gameplay. I'll see if it's any good when it's out. There has been too many promising mmos that's been ruined because of their state at release.

Actually all MMOs have gameplay that's at their core mediocre and repetitive; the shiny paint and pretty colors are what distract the player from realizing that he's just pressing the same 4 or 5 buttons over and over again.

Note that most of BW's games have mediocre gameplay at best, ESPECIALLY KOTOR, which is cited as one of their most successful games.

As for the crafting system, since each character can only have 1 crafting skill at a time, no one player can really hold a monopoly over the entire server. Instead, the best crafters will be forced to specialize in only a handful of items, a fraction of what is available for that crafting skill. So you're the only one that can make that green armor for bounty hunters? What if I'm the only one that can make the purple armor for bounty hunters, that has higher survivability but slightly less DPS? They're still in competition for one another even though they are different items that fulfill slightly different roles, because if they are both BiS, and one of them is half the price of the other, most bounty hunters will buy the cheaper one.

warty goblin

2010-11-15, 02:11 PM

Again with the Lucas hate. :smallsigh:

Yes, LucasArts pressured Obsidian to publish the game before it was finished. However, I doubt that it was directly George Lucas's fault in any way at all. He was busy with something else (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_III:_Revenge_of_the_Sith) at that point, remember?

I don't know the details, but I find it perfectly believable that Obsidian was under contract to deliver the game by the holidays, and simply got too ambitious. I realize that making excuses for Obsidian is something of a nerd hobby, but it is also possible they are not good at strategic planning and time budgeting. Given that just about every game they've released since KoTOR II has been some variety of wreck or other on release, I begin to suspect the latter.

The idea of ToR (storydriven multiplayer) strikes me as somewhat interesting, if problematic from a design point of view. However the combination of Star Wars and egregiously ugly animations virtually guarantee I'll never try it.

Karoht

2010-11-15, 03:43 PM

Klose_the_Sith

2010-11-15, 05:16 PM

I don't follow the logic here.

How is it possible that by reducing the number of people able to produce a given product, you increase competition? Consider two flower sellers, both selling red and blue roses, and the same two flower sellers, one selling red roses exclusively and the other only blue ones.

In the first case, both are competing to sell both of their products. In the other... competition in increased? How? :smallconfused:

You would be correct in the real world, but I don't think so in an MMO.

Say crafting goes to level 80. Say there are a half dozen crafting subsets. Most players are probably going to be intimidated away from maxing out crafting, so only the hardcore players will be able to make epic gear - you create a small group with what is essentially a limited monopoly (I forget the exact term, it's when it's not a monopoly persay, but there aren't enough suppliers).

When you've only got one crafting subset to work on, pretty much anyone can cope. Because there will be hundreds of players on each server at a time, there'll be dozens of people with any given subset, probably dozens with it as maxed out as it'll get, tbh.

Because it's impossible to have a strangle on the supply of resources in this case (and because resources are unlimited we technically can't apply economics >.>) the market is always open to competition. Once it's seen that crafting subset x is where all the money is, said subset will become an incredibly popular choice for crafting. Ergo, any monopoly that can be held can be shattered.

But essentially correct, yes? My background in economics is virtually non-existant, although game-based economies are something of a hobby of mine.

Essentially, yes. The free market is where everyone's greed cancels everyone else's out (in theory) by making it so that people will only pay exactly what they want, but by also letting a seller easily adjust themselves to better supply their customers (through price signals, which is just fancy talk fer sales or lack thereof :smallwink:).

I'm not at all sure what "consuption based economy" even means. :smallsmile:

It's just me using wacky terms that don't really exist >.>

What I mean is an economy where the only drivers are buying and selling, without employment, import, exports, government or financial. Essentially what an MMO economy is.

We agree then. Although I find it hilarious when I buy stuff off players and then sell it to the stores for a profit. That's in City of Heroes, if you're curious. Boy does that game have a wonky economy.

>.<

I guess there's no value placed on player-made items in that game.

Mando Knight

2010-11-15, 06:01 PM

(I forget the exact term, it's when it's not a monopoly persay, but there aren't enough suppliers)

The term you're looking for is oligopoly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly). Or "cell-phone providers." :smalltongue:

Klose_the_Sith

2010-11-15, 06:12 PM

The term you're looking for is oligopoly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly). Or "cell-phone providers." :smalltongue:

Actually, my country has a monopoly on mobile-phones :smalltongue:

(Well, okay, technically there are several phone companies. It's just that one company owns the infrastructure and no-ones allowed to install any more, meaning every company just ends up paying the owners anyway :smallamused:.)

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-15, 06:24 PM

You would be correct in the real world, but I don't think so in an MMO.

Say crafting goes to level 80. Say there are a half dozen crafting subsets. Most players are probably going to be intimidated away from maxing out crafting, so only the hardcore players will be able to make epic gear - you create a small group with what is essentially a limited monopoly (I forget the exact term, it's when it's not a monopoly persay, but there aren't enough suppliers).

When you've only got one crafting subset to work on, pretty much anyone can cope. Because there will be hundreds of players on each server at a time, there'll be dozens of people with any given subset, probably dozens with it as maxed out as it'll get, tbh.

Because it's impossible to have a strangle on the supply of resources in this case (and because resources are unlimited we technically can't apply economics >.>) the market is always open to competition. Once it's seen that crafting subset x is where all the money is, said subset will become an incredibly popular choice for crafting. Ergo, any monopoly that can be held can be shattered.

OK, I see what you mean now. Yeah, that sort of specialization is probably good. It allows for competition within the niche while offering a degree of protection players occupying other niches.

What I was objecting to wasn't to specialization in general, though.

At the same time, the crafting will be complex and difficult to the point where the master crafter may have recipes that only 1 or 2 people in an ENTIRE SERVER could have, and apparently crafters will be able to "mark" the items they make somehow, such that you know who crafted your loot for you. Since you can only choose one crafting skill, players are NOT self sufficient, and have to rely on other people to benefit fully from the system. This in itself creates a healthy and supportive economy and environment.

...It's the bolded part that worries me. That situation virtually the definition of a monopoly.

What I mean is an economy where the only drivers are buying and selling, without employment, import, exports, government or financial. Essentially what an MMO economy is.

I see. Yeah, wouldn't work in real life, and is prone to strange behaviour in MMOs.

>.<

I guess there's no value placed on player-made items in that game.

But that's the funniest part! You can get a 200% (or more!) profit margin buy buying raw mats off players and crafting. It's bananas. :smallbiggrin:

cdstephens

2010-11-15, 08:42 PM

I don't know the details, but I find it perfectly believable that Obsidian was under contract to deliver the game by the holidays, and simply got too ambitious. I realize that making excuses for Obsidian is something of a nerd hobby, but it is also possible they are not good at strategic planning and time budgeting. Given that just about every game they've released since KoTOR II has been some variety of wreck or other on release, I begin to suspect the latter.

The idea of ToR (storydriven multiplayer) strikes me as somewhat interesting, if problematic from a design point of view. However the combination of Star Wars and egregiously ugly animations virtually guarantee I'll never try it.

How is it problematic?

cdstephens

2010-11-15, 08:45 PM

I've been following this game a bit. I must say certain aspects do honestly interest me.

My problem is, I'm not super interested in Star Wars. And I'm really not interested in more 'before episode 4' content.

I do plan on giving the game an honest go when it comes out though. Scoundrel (the han solo archetype) looks about like the only class I'm currently interested in. But my problem is, again, not super interested in Star Wars, especiall not the setting that it is being set in.

But I'm participating in this thread with the honest intention of being open minded. Yes, I'm a WoW player, but lets leave any and all comparisons to WoW at the door for the time being.

How can I get into this game if I'm just not interested in the setting, or really any of the character classes?

EDIT: Also, a friend loaned me KOTOR a while back. Really didn't find that all that fun.

The gameplay in TOR is nothing like KOTOR. It's much more akin to WoW than anything else really.

It's extremely hard to define what TOR is without using comparisons to other MMOs, especially CoH, WAR, and WoW, actually.

Here's a video if you want to take a look at how level 10 combat looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdN1o3313tE

I know several people on the boards who couldn't give a care about story but are excited for this game due to features like advanced classes, how the combat is done, choreographed combat (lightsabers actually collide!), crafting, space combat, etc. One small feature that quite a few people like is the lack of an auto attack.

By the way, I believe you mean the Scoundrel advanced class, which belongs to the Smuggler class. Or have you not decided on your advanced class yet, and simply know you want to play the Smuggler?

warty goblin

2010-11-15, 08:57 PM

How is it problematic?

(Apologies in advance for any typos I miss. I just cut the tip of my left index finger off, the bandage makes typing somewhat... problematic (har har)).

It's problematic in the following way: Consider Mass Effect or Dragon Age. In those games you hit a patch of dialog, the NPC says something, you say something back, and so on until the end of the encounter.

Now try translating this to a game with more than one person. When person A is talking, what's person B doing? From the videos I've seen of this in action in ToR, nothing. At least to me, that sounds boring. Maybe not the first time, but MMO content is replayed very, very heavily. The thirteenth time you do that encounter you probably just want to get on with things, and waiting for Joe Jedi to make up his mind is going to be a real drag.

Or what if you want result 1 from a dialog encounter (say you end up fighting one sort of enemy), but the other person wants result 2 (where you fight something different)? If A gets to determine the outcome, then B's just along for a time consuming and ultimately pointless ride, and obviously vice versa if B has the deciding vote. Or if the two work at cross purposes do they both end up with result 3, which neither wants? Or is the outcome fixed, and all the dialog merely filler?

These problems are probably solvable, but they certainly exist.

Karoht

2010-11-16, 12:04 AM

The gameplay in TOR is nothing like KOTOR. It's much more akin to WoW than anything else really.

It's extremely hard to define what TOR is without using comparisons to other MMOs, especially CoH, WAR, and WoW, actually.

Here's a video if you want to take a look at how level 10 combat looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdN1o3313tE

I know several people on the boards who couldn't give a care about story but are excited for this game due to features like advanced classes, how the combat is done, choreographed combat (lightsabers actually collide!), crafting, space combat, etc. One small feature that quite a few people like is the lack of an auto attack.

By the way, I believe you mean the Scoundrel advanced class, which belongs to the Smuggler class. Or have you not decided on your advanced class yet, and simply know you want to play the Smuggler?

Seen lots of videos. Avid watcher of The MMO Report. Saw the E3 previews. Saw the space combat preview. I used to be a big fan of Xwing VS TIE Fighter back in the day, was sort of sad that the space combat is a rail shooter by every account that I've seen. I had a crazy kind of hope I could run space missions and smuggling runs as a means of progressing my character.

Lack of auto attack? How is that relevant? Especially with a Blaster? Pulling a trigger is that complex?

Lightsabers will be cool for all of a month. Then they'll be so commonplace as to be boring. Moreover, Episode 1-3 ruined Jedi for me, my friend who ONLY ever plays Sith in the pen and paper game ruined Sith for me, and the bounty hunter will get boatloads of play as to be extremely common place.

Smuggler looks neat. It's about the only thing really attracting me to the game. Yeah, I liked how interaction with NPC's worked in KOTOR vs other games, but having someone read to you and having to read something yourself really aren't all that different to me, though having some choices is nice. Also, the team missions where both players have to make a decision? What if I want to go down route A with my character, other guy messes it up and picks B? Now my character is set down that route? Or is all that pathing irrelevant in TOR unlike how it was in KOTOR? Everything I've read seems to say it's the same.

I'm also not much of a Bioware fan. Yeah, I liked Bioshock, but I don't buy a game because company X made it. It's like how I'm not going to buy a Final Fantasy game just because Square made it.

Meh. I'll give it a month, see if it grabs me or not. So far it isn't looking positive.

EDIT-Saw that video as well.

Klose_the_Sith

2010-11-16, 08:05 AM

...It's the bolded part that worries me. That situation virtually the definition of a monopoly.

I ... holy frig :smalleek:

I completely missed that. Who in the heck decided that that'd be a good idea? (Of course the website is down atm, so I can't double check. Oh joy of joys :smallsigh:).

I see. Yeah, wouldn't work in real life, and is prone to strange behaviour in MMOs.

It's actually surprising that there isn't MORE anarchy in MMO's, now that I think about it :smallconfused:

But that's the funniest part! You can get a 200% (or more!) profit margin buy buying raw mats off players and crafting. It's bananas. :smallbiggrin:

:smallamused:

Although in a way it just makes me feel sorry for them, not knowing what their goods are worth and such >.>

SmartAlec

2010-11-16, 08:25 AM

I'm also not much of a Bioware fan. Yeah, I liked Bioshock, but I don't buy a game because company X made it.

Was that intended as a random example? I don't think BioWare made Bioshock.

Karoht

2010-11-16, 12:22 PM

Was that intended as a random example? I don't think BioWare made Bioshock.
Whoops, derp derp, totally screwed that up.
However the final fantasy and square example still stands.

Squark

2010-11-16, 12:33 PM

Was that intended as a random example? I don't think BioWare made Bioshock.

He's not the first one to make that mistake. Seems to be a fairly common misconception- I've seen it made on the TOR boards to.

EDIT: Once the game comes out (though it may spend a lot of time in development, if the moving deadline seems to be any indication), anyone else up to designate a GITP server?

Mando Knight

2010-11-16, 04:01 PM

was sort of sad that the space combat is a rail shooter by every account that I've seen.

If they do it right, then it's not a bad idea. By "doing it right," I mean "they play Starfox 64 'til their sticks wear out, then pretty much copy the gameplay wholesale." :smalltongue:

AlterForm

2010-11-16, 04:10 PM

If they do it right, then it's not a bad idea. By "doing it right," I mean "they play Starfox 64 'til their sticks wear out, then pretty much copy the gameplay wholesale." :smalltongue:

Fox, Luke, get this guy off me!

Mando Knight

2010-11-16, 04:22 PM

Fox, Luke, get this guy off me!
Shoot a torpedo into the open spot!

Retreat?! In our moment of triumph? Those tin cans are no match for us!

king.com

2010-11-17, 07:38 AM

Now try translating this to a game with more than one person. When person A is talking, what's person B doing? From the videos I've seen of this in action in ToR, nothing. At least to me, that sounds boring. Maybe not the first time, but MMO content is replayed very, very heavily. The thirteenth time you do that encounter you probably just want to get on with things, and waiting for Joe Jedi to make up his mind is going to be a real drag.

Or what if you want result 1 from a dialog encounter (say you end up fighting one sort of enemy), but the other person wants result 2 (where you fight something different)? If A gets to determine the outcome, then B's just along for a time consuming and ultimately pointless ride, and obviously vice versa if B has the deciding vote. Or if the two work at cross purposes do they both end up with result 3, which neither wants? Or is the outcome fixed, and all the dialog merely filler?

From the videos its been shown that player A says his thing, and player B says his thing, though player A gets the big decision of the encounter, I gather than player B will still be getting hit by the moral slider shift.

Note that most of BW's games have mediocre gameplay at best, ESPECIALLY KOTOR, which is cited as one of their most successful games.

BG2 would probably be their most successful game and that had an absolutely fantastic combat system. Funny enough KOTOR was using a very similiar combat system which I found highly enjoyable (though the reduction in character numbers simplified things perhaps a little too much).

Im not sure what you consider good gameplay personally but I would perfer a continuous turned based combat system for swtor.

Chen

2010-11-17, 07:57 AM

At the same time, the crafting will be complex and difficult to the point where the master crafter may have recipes that only 1 or 2 people in an ENTIRE SERVER could have

The way I read this is that its going to be a long grind to get those recipes rather than an actual hard cap on the recipes. If its the former, Bioware (or whoever released that statement) is massively underestimating the number of completionists or min/maxers who play MMOs. If it IS a hard limit somehow, then yes it will be a very bad thing.

kyoryu

2010-11-18, 12:13 AM

cdstephens

2010-11-18, 09:49 PM

(Apologies in advance for any typos I miss. I just cut the tip of my left index finger off, the bandage makes typing somewhat... problematic (har har)).

It's problematic in the following way: Consider Mass Effect or Dragon Age. In those games you hit a patch of dialog, the NPC says something, you say something back, and so on until the end of the encounter.

Now try translating this to a game with more than one person. When person A is talking, what's person B doing? From the videos I've seen of this in action in ToR, nothing. At least to me, that sounds boring. Maybe not the first time, but MMO content is replayed very, very heavily. The thirteenth time you do that encounter you probably just want to get on with things, and waiting for Joe Jedi to make up his mind is going to be a real drag.

Or what if you want result 1 from a dialog encounter (say you end up fighting one sort of enemy), but the other person wants result 2 (where you fight something different)? If A gets to determine the outcome, then B's just along for a time consuming and ultimately pointless ride, and obviously vice versa if B has the deciding vote. Or if the two work at cross purposes do they both end up with result 3, which neither wants? Or is the outcome fixed, and all the dialog merely filler?

These problems are probably solvable, but they certainly exist.

There's a short timer for how long a person can choose a dialogue option, and when the timer is up the person who wins the roll gets his voice heard.

For the important options that determine how the instance plays out versus fluff, it's majority rules.

The alignment points you get is determined by the option you wanted. So if you wanted to kill the captain, but the captain is saved, you get Dark Side points.

That sounds a LOT like SWG (at least pre-NGE)

Yeah, that's what a lot of people on the official forums have been saying.

Lack of auto attack? How is that relevant? Especially with a Blaster? Pulling a trigger is that complex?

Since the rest of your points are opinionated for the most part, I'll ignore those and focus on this, simply because I doubt I could change your opinion.

Some people (not all, but some) feel that removing auto attack makes the person feel more immersed or involved in combat because you have to direct each and every one of your character's attacks. It also makes it more obvious if a person is afk because he won't be doing anything until he presses a button. I imagine it would also slightly reduce the amount of gold farmers since they wouldn't be able to just right click on a monster, but actually have to do some work to kill something.

Karoht

2010-11-19, 11:35 AM

Since the rest of your points are opinionated for the most part, I'll ignore those and focus on this, simply because I doubt I could change your opinion.

Some people (not all, but some) feel that removing auto attack makes the person feel more immersed or involved in combat because you have to direct each and every one of your character's attacks. It also makes it more obvious if a person is afk because he won't be doing anything until he presses a button. I imagine it would also slightly reduce the amount of gold farmers since they wouldn't be able to just right click on a monster, but actually have to do some work to kill something.

I don't know of any MMO where auto attack turns on when you are attacked.
I also don't know of many MMO's where you can kill level relevant mobs with nothing but auto attack.

That aside, so space combat really is nothing more than a glorified rail shooter? And space combat alone isn't something a player character could make a progression at?
Yeah, that's the final nail in the coffin. I'll try the game for a month or wait for a free trial, but so far there isn't much to like.
Also, Yahtzee's review of Force Unleased 2 pretty much sums up what I think of the starwars universe now.

cdstephens

2010-11-19, 07:56 PM

I don't know of any MMO where auto attack turns on when you are attacked.
I also don't know of many MMO's where you can kill level relevant mobs with nothing but auto attack.

That aside, so space combat really is nothing more than a glorified rail shooter? And space combat alone isn't something a player character could make a progression at?
Yeah, that's the final nail in the coffin. I'll try the game for a month or wait for a free trial, but so far there isn't much to like.
Also, Yahtzee's review of Force Unleased 2 pretty much sums up what I think of the starwars universe now.

Notice he put KOTOR on the good side. :smallwink:

Space combat = Starfox 64, because making it first person shooter would be a complete departure from RPG gameplay.

Hawriel

2010-11-19, 08:39 PM

cdstephens

2010-11-19, 09:45 PM

My biggest consern is the space combat. It looked like an on rails rogue squadren like set up. Honestly I think thats a big step back from Star Wars Galaxies. Sure the that game as a whole was ruined but the space combat was rather fun. It was based off of the X Wing/Tie fighter games. Also you could travil the galaxy in your ship.

The reason you can't travel the galaxy like you can in Eve is because there'd be nothing to do. It doesn't fit in with what happens in the movies or books anyways; they just enter hyperspace, and bam they're at their destination for normal traveling. They never go exploring or anything of the sort.

Edit: Argh, sorry for the double post. I always forget >.>

cdstephens

2010-11-20, 08:46 PM

They just recently changed how group conversations work in the new interview.

Apparently for major decisions (kill or spare the captain), everyone gets a roll to their choice, and the side with the total bigger number wins. So if one person rolls 100 and three people roll 1's then the one person will win. You still get alignment points for what you chose instead of what happened.

Valaqil

2010-11-22, 12:20 AM

I found this thread (http://swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=188836) to be a great place to read about the game. Especially the more gameplay-oriented information I was trying to find. After reading about classes and planets, I wanted to know about how the game would work. It's a decent place to start.

AstralFire

2010-11-22, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the link - very useful.

Karoht

2010-11-22, 09:54 PM

The reason you can't travel the galaxy like you can in Eve is because there'd be nothing to do. It doesn't fit in with what happens in the movies or books anyways; they just enter hyperspace, and bam they're at their destination for normal traveling. They never go exploring or anything of the sort.
Yeah, because it's starwars, anything not in the movies, books, or expanded universe means it's not allowed in gameplay. Right.

Sad, because I was looking forward to having to be careful in plotting out my hyperspace jumps, maybe having to pay attention to reports of known Interdictors (and their gravity well generators) in a given area. Or pulling ambushes as such. Was also looking forward to strafe runs on battle lines or enemy placements.

Oh well, rail shooter it is I guess, because Xwing VS TIE Fighter was too complicated for most people.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, I just keep running out of reasons to be excited for this game.

Xondoure

2010-11-23, 12:36 AM

How is it that so many people are angry at star fox style space battles? Those games are awesome…

Talkkno

2010-11-23, 12:58 AM

How is it that so many people are angry at star fox style space battles? Those games are awesome…

Because X-Wing vs Tie Fighter is better.

warty goblin

2010-11-23, 09:59 AM

Because X-Wing vs Tie Fighter is better.

Also completely unsuited to an MMO of anything like the typical persuasion.

SmartAlec

2010-11-23, 10:26 AM

Expecting a story-driven MMO to have an intricate and complex space simulation system feels like complaining that a black forest gateau doesn't have any orange slices on it.

Talkkno

2010-11-23, 03:33 PM

Also completely unsuited to an MMO of anything like the typical persuasion.

What about Eve online?

Comet

2010-11-23, 03:48 PM

What about Eve online?

That's an entire game. You want them to make an entire extra game on top of the, obviously central, man-to-man parts?

Also, Eve Online is very little like X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter. Also also, Tie Fighter is better than X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter.

On a final note, Star Fox is awesome. And the flying has always been a minigame sort of deal in the KOtOR games, so it all fits together neatly.
I do wish we could explore the galaxy a bit, admittedly, but there's just a point where the developers have to say "This is all we can realistically manage."

AstralFire

2010-11-23, 03:54 PM

All I ask is that the controls not be sluggish and completely suck like they did in KotOR. If it actually is Star Fox - where you're on rails with limited freedom - then that'd be amazing.

Karoht

2010-11-23, 05:24 PM

What about Eve online?
What about starwars galaxies?

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-23, 05:55 PM

All I ask is that the controls not be sluggish and completely suck like they did in KotOR. If it actually is Star Fox - where you're on rails with limited freedom - then that'd be amazing.

It'd be better if it was Rogue Squadron, but I'll happily settle for Starfox.

...

And now I'm imagining the trench scene in A New Hope with Vader going "*KSHHH* I can't let you do that, Skywalker!"

Hawriel

2010-11-23, 11:06 PM

The reason you can't travel the galaxy like you can in Eve is because there'd be nothing to do. It doesn't fit in with what happens in the movies or books anyways; they just enter hyperspace, and bam they're at their destination for normal traveling. They never go exploring or anything of the sort.

I find this absurd. You claming that just because Bioware has large story arced quests and the movies did have the character travil every ware in the galaxy, it would be imposable or improbable that there would be freeform space travel.

Dont play MMOs much do you? Star Wars Galaxies has the kind of travel I want. LOTR has story oriented quests yet you can go ware ever you please in middle earth. Star Trek quest arks have a plot to them yet you can go ware ever you want. Hell even KOTOR let you leave and go to any of the planets when ever you wanted. ME did the same thing. Granted ME was mostly side quests and grinding.

Please explane to me how exactly the existence of star wars movies and books prevents bioware from creating an MMO with space travel similar to or better than STG?

Arcanoi

2010-11-23, 11:59 PM

I find this absurd. You claming that just because Bioware has large story arced quests and the movies did have the character travil every ware in the galaxy, it would be imposable or improbable that there would be freeform space travel.

Dont play MMOs much do you? Star Wars Galaxies has the kind of travel I want. LOTR has story oriented quests yet you can go ware ever you please in middle earth. Star Trek quest arks have a plot to them yet you can go ware ever you want. Hell even KOTOR let you leave and go to any of the planets when ever you wanted. ME did the same thing. Granted ME was mostly side quests and grinding.

Please explane to me how exactly the existence of star wars movies and books prevents bioware from creating an MMO with space travel similar to or better than STG?

Chillax, dawg. EVE is an entirely space-based MMO in which your avatar is a ship. TOR is going to let you have travel, but nothing on such detailed scale. That would require them to make a whole-other game to stack on top of TOR.

Also, did you actually enjoy the ME travel? Did it really feel like it was actual content, or were you just doing it to grind while you eagerly awaited going to the next plot planet? :smallwink: I'd rather they put their effort into fleshing out each planet hub with vibrant quests and awesome happenings and not waste their time on disappointing mini-quests.

Worira

2010-11-24, 12:25 AM

AstralFire

2010-11-24, 08:45 AM

It'd be better if it was Rogue Squadron, but I'll happily settle for Starfox.

...

And now I'm imagining the trench scene in A New Hope with Vader going "*KSHHH* I can't let you do that, Skywalker!"

I just don't think expecting a free-form flight simulator inside of an MMO of an entirely other genre is realistic.

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-24, 10:23 AM

I just don't think expecting a free-form flight simulator inside of an MMO of an entirely other genre is realistic.

Well I was hardly expecting a Rogue Squadron clone in what is (it seems) going to be little more that a mini-game. Didn't stop me from hoping for it though :smalltongue:

Karoht

2010-11-24, 04:07 PM

I just don't think expecting a free-form flight simulator inside of an MMO of an entirely other genre is realistic.
Again, they did it just fine in Galaxies.

AstralFire

2010-11-24, 04:09 PM

Again, they did it just fine in Galaxies.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical that it didn't suck, given how utterly appalling my two hours in that game were. Starting with the class selector looking like it belonged on a geocities site.

cdstephens

2010-11-25, 01:28 AM

I find this absurd. You claming that just because Bioware has large story arced quests and the movies did have the character travil every ware in the galaxy, it would be imposable or improbable that there would be freeform space travel.

Dont play MMOs much do you? Star Wars Galaxies has the kind of travel I want. LOTR has story oriented quests yet you can go ware ever you please in middle earth. Star Trek quest arks have a plot to them yet you can go ware ever you want. Hell even KOTOR let you leave and go to any of the planets when ever you wanted. ME did the same thing. Granted ME was mostly side quests and grinding.

Please explane to me how exactly the existence of star wars movies and books prevents bioware from creating an MMO with space travel similar to or better than STG?

Uhh....space is kinda empty it turns out. In Star Wars, people never go exploring, they use well established routes. Plus how space travel in the Star Wars universe works; you punch in numbers and go to that location through hyperspace. If you punch in the wrong codes, you end up in either the middle of nowhere or in a black hole...

Talkkno

2010-11-25, 02:00 AM

U In Star Wars, people never go exploring, they use well established routes. .
What about Thrawn exploration and settlement into the unknown regions doesn't count then, or Outbound Flight for the matter.

Brother Oni

2010-11-25, 02:33 PM

Your avatar's a dude who flies ships in EVE, actually. True, you never actually interact with anything outside a ship, but your character is distinct from his ships. This becomes more and more clear as you get used to losing ships as a fact of life in EVE.

Character separation from their ship will only be reinforced when Incarna comes out, however given that the whole of Incarna is apparently optional, I doubt it'll change things.

Hawriel

2010-11-25, 10:57 PM

Uhh....space is kinda empty it turns out. In Star Wars, people never go exploring, they use well established routes. Plus how space travel in the Star Wars universe works; you punch in numbers and go to that location through hyperspace. If you punch in the wrong codes, you end up in either the middle of nowhere or in a black hole...

So Yaven and Hoth where on well traveled hyperspace routs. :smallconfused: The alliance didnt bother to explore looking for out of the way locations that would suite their needs for a base. :smallconfused:

A good chunk of the star wars RPG D6 inceraged exploration type adventures. I am rather confused on why you think exploration is off the reservation for a star wars game. Please explane.

MMOs are partly about exploring the game. Just going places and seeing what the devs created.

Chillax, dawg. EVE is an entirely space-based MMO in which your avatar is a ship. TOR is going to let you have travel, but nothing on such detailed scale. That would require them to make a whole-other game to stack on top of TOR.

Also, did you actually enjoy the ME travel? Did it really feel like it was actual content, or were you just doing it to grind while you eagerly awaited going to the next plot planet? I'd rather they put their effort into fleshing out each planet hub with vibrant quests and awesome happenings and not waste their time on disappointing mini-quests.

The ME travel worked for that game. I don't think it would work for Star Wars. I used ME as an example because there where planets to actualy go to and explore. Some of the planets in ME where rather well done. However alot of them where a pain in the ass. I did all the quests because I payed fifty bones to buy the game. I might as well do the whole thing. Some quests where interesting others where dissapointing.

Star Trek online is guilty of making boring grind quests. All MMOs have side quests. why should TOR be any different. Sure it has plot quests with dialog and epicness. But why do they have to cut out the random quest that players run into because they wanted to see what was in that canion over there. Or want to see just what is on the moon of Corellia. Expand that a little farther and make systems that are "unknown" for exlporation. You dont have to fill in the whole galaxy. Again it could be like finding Hath for the Alliance. That could be a big Plot quest or it could be a secondary quest for a smuggling guild who wants a new base.

Just because it's a side quest dose not meen it has to be a find the old ladies cat, or get me ten bantha hides, or there are minoks in my celler quests.

Edit. It's the grumpy dwarf that makes me come off as combative isn't it? Honestly no aggretion intended. I stay away from Jar-Jar and the fact that Greedo never shot (Han didnt shoot first that would imply that Greedo shot at all. which he didnt. Han was the only one to shoot. :smallfurious:) see thats why I dont talk about that.

Mando Knight

2010-11-25, 11:15 PM

There's a difference: the GCW was largely a guerrilla war until the Battle of Endor, with the Alliance's "control" of worlds mostly through clandestine meetings and secret sympathizers. TOR will occur during a galactic cold war, where there's little to gain by traveling to uncharted worlds, since the war is over the control of the charted ones. Yes, there'll be some "secret" worlds where special projects to turn the tide of the war will be developed, but by and large there is little strategic profit in spending resources to explore potentially dangerous uncharted worlds instead of fortifying positions in hotly contested key worlds.

warty goblin

2010-11-25, 11:38 PM

So Yaven and Hoth where on well traveled hyperspace routs. :smallconfused: The alliance didnt bother to explore looking for out of the way locations that would suite their needs for a base. :smallconfused:

They were out of the way yes, however finding them was hardly something the movies spent a huge amount of time on. I mean Vader found Hoth in what, six minutes of screen time or something?

And besides, exploring space itself is dull, since most of it is defined more by the absence of anything than its presence. What is interesting is the stuff you find, aka planets. Skipping the boring bits and going straight for the interesting is generally considered good game design. Even most painfully hardcore simulations have time acceleration for a reason, and a Star Wars MMO is about as far from a simulation as it is possible to be.

Karoht

2010-11-26, 09:19 PM

They were out of the way yes, however finding them was hardly something the movies spent a huge amount of time on. I mean Vader found Hoth in what, six minutes of screen time or something?Yeah, but even with force powers, it took them all of Episode 4 to find Yavin (along with any time spent prior to the film open), and they had spent considerable time prior to Episode 5 looking for Hoth.
The audience has the benefit of movie magic to skip all the so called boring stuff. Or in the case of most modern media, the stuff that isn't going to hold their remarkably short attention span.

And besides, exploring space itself is dull, since most of it is defined more by the absence of anything than its presence. What is interesting is the stuff you find, aka planets. Skipping the boring bits and going straight for the interesting is generally considered good game design. Even most painfully hardcore simulations have time acceleration for a reason, and a Star Wars MMO is about as far from a simulation as it is possible to be.So they couldn't have had relevant, non-rail shooter space combat in orbit of the planet? Or near an asteroid field? Or perhaps, even in the atmosphere of said planet?

warty goblin

2010-11-27, 01:13 AM

Yeah, but even with force powers, it took them all of Episode 4 to find Yavin (along with any time spent prior to the film open), and they had spent considerable time prior to Episode 5 looking for Hoth.
The audience has the benefit of movie magic to skip all the so called boring stuff. Or in the case of most modern media, the stuff that isn't going to hold their remarkably short attention span.

So why shouldn't the audience have the benefit of game magic to skip all the boring stuff?

So they couldn't have had relevant, non-rail shooter space combat in orbit of the planet? Or near an asteroid field? Or perhaps, even in the atmosphere of said planet?
Could they have done so? Probably, but the integration of space combat and general MMO gameplay seems to me to be anything but simple. Flying a ship - even one using the watered down WWII flight mechanics of Star Wars - requires actual player skill in ways that most MMOs simply do not. Given the amount of other new stuff the game is doing, going for something simpler here is honestly probably a better choice.

Dienekes

2010-11-27, 10:22 AM

Yeah, but even with force powers, it took them all of Episode 4 to find Yavin (along with any time spent prior to the film open),

Actually this doesn't fit. It took all of episode 4 to figure out that the rebel base was on Yavin, we are given no information whether the Imperials knew Yavin existed or not and it was being discovered. According to EU, everyone knew it existed.

Same goes for Hoth really.

I suppose you could play a minigame about firing probes in random directions, but that sounds even more boring to me than the scanning of ME2. Personally if I'm going to uncover the secret location of ____, I'd rather play an Agent and beat/sneak/deceive it out of people.

Talkkno

2010-11-27, 02:04 PM

What about in AOTC where Kammino wasn't even in the Jedi archives and they had spend a lot time searching for it.

Mando Knight

2010-11-27, 02:14 PM

What about in AOTC where Kammino wasn't even in the Jedi archives and they had spend a lot time searching for it.

They didn't spend a long time searching for it: it was purposely deleted from the Archives, and Obi-Wan, going off of Dex's information, spotted the error (through a gravitational anomaly in the area around the missing system), talked to Yoda about it, and went there. All told, it wasn't much more than 5 minutes of the film to go from not knowing where the planet was to Kenobi entering the Kamino system.

Valaqil

2010-11-27, 06:13 PM

They didn't spend a long time searching for it: it was purposely deleted from the Archives, and Obi-Wan, going off of Dex's information, spotted the error (through a gravitational anomaly in the area around the missing system), talked to Yoda about it, and went there. All told, it wasn't much more than 5 minutes of the film to go from not knowing where the planet was to Kenobi entering the Kamino system.

And, even in "real time", it probably wasn't more than, what, a day or two? Since they had the gravitational anomaly he knew _really_ close to where it was. He just needed Dex to tell him what was there and confirm stuff. Remember, in the film, he points right where he expected a planet to be and said "It should be ... here." They didn't really spend time looking for it at all.

Mando Knight

2010-11-27, 06:48 PM

Except they messed up on the galaxy map... he pointed at the Unknown Regions, when he should have pointed towards the Rishi Maze... which interestingly enough is a satellite dwarf galaxy.

cdstephens

2010-11-29, 01:27 AM

So Yaven and Hoth where on well traveled hyperspace routes. :smallconfused:

The Republic knew about Hoth for over 3000 years (hence it's place in TOR), and the Republic already attacked Yavin around 4000 BBY, and was known by the Sith in 5000 BBY. So neither world is actually uncharted or unknown, they just aren't visited quite often. If the Empire knew the Rebels were on Yavin or Hoth, they would have been able to go there immediately. The only example in recent memory I can think of that's close to uncharted exploration is Darth Bane searching for Tython, but he got the coordinates after he infiltrated the Jedi Temple, so that hardly counts.

Basically anywhere worth going to is already on a map somewhere and explored to some degree, as most planets in the galaxy don't even support life and have nothing of value on them save for perhaps a few minerals. So the most you would be able to do for the most part is report that they are there to your government and move on. Exploring is not the type of thing you go do in a Cold War, especially when the Emperor has specific planets already in mind.

Sorry, just how the game is set up, space exploration wouldn't make much sense to me.

And no worries about the anger thing; I've seen much worse. :p

Yeah, but even with force powers, it took them all of Episode 4 to find Yavin (along with any time spent prior to the film open), and they had spent considerable time prior to Episode 5 looking for Hoth.
The audience has the benefit of movie magic to skip all the so called boring stuff. Or in the case of most modern media, the stuff that isn't going to hold their remarkably short attention span.

So they couldn't have had relevant, non-rail shooter space combat in orbit of the planet? Or near an asteroid field? Or perhaps, even in the atmosphere of said planet?

Note that they weren't looking for Hoth or Yavin; they were looking for the Rebels. If they knew that the Rebels were on either planet, the looking part would be nonexistant, since both planets were more or less well known, especially considering Yavin has significant importance pertaining to matters of the Dark Side and the Emperor is a Sith Lord.

To make non-rail shooter combat would require creating a physics engine and game mechanics entirely separate from the main game for something that would be considered by most a side thing, especially considering there are games specifically tailored to space combat in the Star Wars Universe.

They didn't spend a long time searching for it: it was purposely deleted from the Archives, and Obi-Wan, going off of Dex's information, spotted the error (through a gravitational anomaly in the area around the missing system), talked to Yoda about it, and went there. All told, it wasn't much more than 5 minutes of the film to go from not knowing where the planet was to Kenobi entering the Kamino system.

Not to mention that if Kamino hadn't been deleted from the archives, Obi-wan would have no need for looking in the first place.

Essentially, in this time period, the only planet that the Republic doesn't have in the archives that is playable on and at all important as far as we can tell is Dromund Kaas, the Sith Capital, since the Sith Empire were the ones to accidentally find a thousand years before the game. The Empire, on the other hand, happens to know where all the Republic's planets are, evident by the fact that they attacked Coruscant. How they managed to know probably has something to to with their alliance with the Mandalorians and the puppet governments they set up in the Outer Rim.

AstralFire

2010-11-29, 05:50 AM

Well, Coruscant isn't difficult to find - it's 0,0,0 on every hyperspace map.

cdstephens

2010-11-29, 06:12 AM

Well, Coruscant isn't difficult to find - it's 0,0,0 on every hyperspace map.

For the Republic yeah, but for an alien Empire? I somewhat doubt it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperlane

The main way to get to Coruscant from the looks of it is the Corellian Run, a major hyperlane. The Empire probably picked up the required coordinates somewhere sometime during their thousand year preparation; Hutts, Mandalorians, Outer Rim planets, and the like probably gave major hyperspace lanes to them. Perhaps Revan and Malak did when they met the Emperor. In any case, the Empire had to find out from someone, rather than just knowing off hand.

I guess that's one reason the Republic had such a hard time in the war; they didn't have a way to get to Dromund Kaas (as far as I know at least), so they always fought on their planets, and never the Empire's. Plus I'm sure considering how much bigger the Republic is compared to the Empire that if they concentrated their forces all on Dromund Kaas the Empire would have fallen fairly quickly.

Xondoure

2010-11-29, 03:12 PM

Sith purebloods look really good. Visually the empire just keeps getting too highly stacked. Step it up Republic!

AstralFire

2010-11-29, 03:14 PM

Sith purebloods look really good. Visually the empire just keeps getting too highly stacked. Step it up Republic!

They have troopers, smugglers and Jedi and you're saying they need to step it up? :smalltongue:

Valaqil

2010-11-29, 04:34 PM

They have troopers, smugglers and Jedi and you're saying they need to step it up? :smalltongue:

He did say visually. And it sort of rings true: The Sith Pureblood and Chiss both look very good. The Bounty Hunter has interesting armor and a neat helmet. The Sith Warrior looks badass.

What I've seen so far of the Republic/LS: Human, Green human, Human with a veil, and Twi'lek. I know that's over-simplifying and a tad unfair, but it's not quite as differentiated as the DS/Empire. And have you seen the Consular's hats/dresses? Consular is the ideal choice for my first class, but I'll be happy to have that toggle for displaying the hat.

I'm eager to play both sides of the game, but I haven't really looked at the Republic and thought "Cool!" I will say that the Trooper and starships look good though.

EDIT: I notice that Zabrak can play both sides. That's good, and another point (for me) in favor of the Republic.

cdstephens

2010-11-29, 11:56 PM

He did say visually. And it sort of rings true: The Sith Pureblood and Chiss both look very good. The Bounty Hunter has interesting armor and a neat helmet. The Sith Warrior looks badass.

What I've seen so far of the Republic/LS: Human, Green human, Human with a veil, and Twi'lek. I know that's over-simplifying and a tad unfair, but it's not quite as differentiated as the DS/Empire. And have you seen the Consular's hats/dresses? Consular is the ideal choice for my first class, but I'll be happy to have that toggle for displaying the hat.

I'm eager to play both sides of the game, but I haven't really looked at the Republic and thought "Cool!" I will say that the Trooper and starships look good though.

EDIT: I notice that Zabrak can play both sides. That's good, and another point (for me) in favor of the Republic.

As for the hat:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=91895

Mando Knight

2010-12-04, 04:41 PM

Fact: Affection affects how fast your companions craft items. Therefore, to maximize how quickly your items are made, give it to that cute mechanic that you just made out with an hour ago. The more she wants you out of your armor, the faster she'll be able to put it together. :smalltongue:

Dienekes

2010-12-04, 06:59 PM

Anyone else think that squadmates are going to be odd from an RP standpoint?

You walk around with your favorite squadmate at your side and oh look, there he is again. And again. And again.

Mando Knight

2010-12-04, 07:13 PM

NPC interaction:

"Hi, I'm The Obvious Diplomat NPC. I'm here on behalf of Player #1138."
"Nice to meet you. I'm The Obvious Diplomat NPC. What do you want from Player #421?"
"Salutations, Obvious Diplomat NPCs of Players #1138 and #421. I am The Obvious Diplomat NPC of #1337, and I think I'm a clone now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kw_d3d0XAo). Do your Players wish to form a mutual questing arrangement?"

Squark

2010-12-05, 02:09 PM

I can't help feeling affection is the wrong word for the influence system. Because that term lends a whole new... dimension to the smuggler-wookie relationship.

AstralFire

2010-12-05, 02:12 PM

I can't help feeling affection is the wrong word for the influence system. Because that term lends a whole new... dimension to the smuggler-wookie relationship.

...

:smallannoyed:

No. No. No.

Mando Knight

2010-12-05, 03:09 PM

I can't help feeling affection is the wrong word for the influence system. Because that term lends a whole new... dimension to the smuggler-wookie relationship.

I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee.
-I can arrange that... You could use a good kiss!

Squark

2010-12-06, 06:53 AM

Sorry about the mental image. But really, they walked into that one with a name like affection.

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-12-06, 08:09 AM

Sorry about the mental image. But really, they walked into that one with a name like affection.

Don't be, it made me laugh. Implied slashfic usually does. But I do agree that there's other words they could use.

Dragor

2010-12-06, 09:40 AM

He did say visually. And it sort of rings true: The Sith Pureblood and Chiss both look very good. The Bounty Hunter has interesting armor and a neat helmet. The Sith Warrior looks badass.

What I've seen so far of the Republic/LS: Human, Green human, Human with a veil, and Twi'lek. I know that's over-simplifying and a tad unfair, but it's not quite as differentiated as the DS/Empire. And have you seen the Consular's hats/dresses? Consular is the ideal choice for my first class, but I'll be happy to have that toggle for displaying the hat.

I'm eager to play both sides of the game, but I haven't really looked at the Republic and thought "Cool!" I will say that the Trooper and starships look good though.

EDIT: I notice that Zabrak can play both sides. That's good, and another point (for me) in favor of the Republic.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

Miraluka are all kinds of awesome. I don't know, I just have a thing for blind warriors. :smalltongue: