General Star Wars Discussion

[cdstephens]

Not seeing one of these in this forum made me die a little on the inside to be honest (Star Wars nerd right here).

So, let's start with something basic; who's your guys' favorite character in the movies, and favorite character in the EU?

In the movies, it would have to be Yoda. He's a pretty wise guy, turns his small size into a benefit, and is a mentor to Luke Skywalker for Episode 5 and 6. I do kinda have a picture of him as my laptop sticker :3.

As for the EU, kinda hard to say. I really like Darth Bane and Darth Zannah from the Bane series written by Karpyshyn (who worked on KOTOR and is also working on the Jedi Knight story in TOR). They're both smart, and Bane killed the entire Sith Order which numbered thousands of people for Pete's sake. Thrawn is also a good character in my book; strategic, analytical, the guy knows what's up. Almost reconquered the galaxy under the Empire you know.

[Xondoure]

A TOR man yes? Force can I not wait for that game. As a kid Luke was my idol, as for the EU my personal favorite is me as a _insert class here_ once that game comes out. :smalltongue:

[cdstephens]

A TOR man yes? Force can I not wait for that game. As a kid Luke was my idol, as for the EU my personal favorite is me as a _insert class here_ once that game comes out. :smalltongue:

Woot for TOR! I can't imagine what class you're talking about though. The Jedi Wizard maybe? :P



Luke is a pretty solid choice for the movies. My only problem with him in the EU is that he's essentially the equivalent of Goku; he's the most powerful being at this point, and it's kinda ridiculous how ridiculous he is.

[Xondoure]

Woot for TOR! I can't imagine what class you're talking about though. The Jedi Wizard maybe? :P



Luke is a pretty solid choice for the movies. My only problem with him in the EU is that he's essentially the equivalent of Goku; he's the most powerful being at this point, and it's kinda ridiculous how ridiculous he is.

Not sure, no idea really. I'll have to play them.

Never been a real fan of the EU, for reasons such as this. Felt that Anakin's story could of been way cooler to... ah well.

[Jade_Tarem]

The movies? Wedge Antilles. He kicks more collective butt than the entire main cast combined, and does it without wangsting about anything.

The EU? Wes Janson. He's fun to read, especially as written by Aaron Allston.

[Closet_Skeleton]

As for the EU, kinda hard to say. I really like Darth Bane and Darth Zannah from the Bane series written by Karpyshyn (who worked on KOTOR and is also working on the Jedi Knight story in TOR). They're both smart, and Bane killed the entire Sith Order which numbered thousands of people for Pete's sake. Thrawn is also a good character in my book; strategic, analytical, the guy knows what's up. Almost reconquered the galaxy under the Empire you know.

Meh, I prefered Jedi VS Sith where he didn't do that and was still 100 times more awesome.

[hamishspence]

Even in Path of Destruction- it was Kaan who destroyed the Sith Order.

However, it was Bane who gave him the idea to use the thought bomb ritual- knowing that Kaan would use it given sufficient incentive.

[Athaniar]

Movies? Palpatine. Excellent villain, excellent character in general. A master manipulator, truly one of the greatest villains in fiction.

Expanded Universe? Thrawn, no contest.


As for my own Star Wars knowledge: I've seen all 6 movies (and I don't really dislike the prequels) plus a bit of the old Clone Wars series, played KotOR (and its awful sequel), Galactic Battleground (plus expansion), read all Thrawn books (trilogy, Hand of Thrawn, Outbound Flight/Survivor's Quest), is now reading (and enjoying) the New Jedi Order (near the end of Balance Point at the moment), and also waiting for The Old Republic. Also some other stuff, probably.

[Dienekes]

Vader was once the greatest, and then he became an annoying whiny child.
Sidious was once devilishly disturbing, and then he turned into the wicked witch of the west.
But Thrawn has never disappointed me. And since he's dead, hopefully he never will. So he takes the place of my favorite character.

Also oddly, I like Dash Rendar more than Han.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

I wonder if it's possible to have a Star Wars discussion without any thinly veiled (or blatant) hatred of anything that happened after 1995...

[Dienekes]

I wonder if it's possible to have a Star Wars discussion without any thinly veiled (or blatant) hatred of anything that happened after 1995...

Not on my watch.

Though truth be told, I liked Palp through the new series right up until the big climactic fight. He swerved too quickly from cunning and manipulative to impossibly large ham.

[Mr. Scaly]

Let's see, for villains it would have to be a three tie between Darth Sidious, Darth Vader and Thrawn. Darth Bane and Zannah are just a little too 'Complete Monster' for me to truly like.

And as for the good guys? Obi Wan and Luke all the way. And C-3PO. And Jar Jar. :smallwink:

Edit: Well if it's any consolation I LOVED everything after 1995 :smallbiggrin:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Though truth be told, I liked Palp through the new series right up until the big climactic fight. He swerved too quickly from cunning and manipulative to impossibly large ham.

Except he's only hamming out because he knows he's already won. He's mostly just releaving stress and having fun by that point.

You've got to give the guy a break, he's already made it so that he doesn't have to fight a Jedi ever, so he has to have some fun the only time he's ever going to fight a Jedi of similar power to him.

[Lord Blace]

EU? Probably Jolee Bindo. He's the kind of gray jedi I like.
The films? Hrm... Probably Sidious. "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!" :smallbiggrin:

[Yulian]

Han Solo and Cade Skywalker.

Because they don't give a crap about destiny, the galaxy at large, never pretend to be anything other than what they are, and yet are still fundamentally decent people who are incredibly loyal to those they care about.

If I had a force ghost appearing to me yammering about my destiny and telling me not to use certain force abilities merely because they are arbitrarily labeled "dark side" (despite being able to be used to help people) I'd probably tell him to kark off, too.

- Yulian

[GenericGuy]

In the movies Han Solo. you can keep your “super special” characters with powers, I'll take the guy with a gun:smallcool:.

The EU is a bit harder for me, but I'll go with Thrawn for being more than a 2d villain like we usually get.

[Zaydos]

Obi-Wan Kenobi

EU Corran Horn.

[Philistine]

I wonder if it's possible to have a Star Wars discussion without any thinly veiled (or blatant) hatred of anything that happened after 1995...

Well, there is quite a bit of bad and silly from 1995 on. In film you get the "Greedo Shoots First" edition of the OT (which is actually less jarring, to me, than inserted scenes with recycled dialogue and out-of-place CGI), and the highly divisive PT (potentially a great story, ruined by GL's delusions of adequacy as a writer and director); in the EU you get another divisive series of stories with the NJO and its Space BDSM Fetishist villains, plus all the wankdalorian BS in both the Old and the New Republic eras. There have been some good video games in the GFFA, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Han Solo and Cade Skywalker.

Because they don't give a crap about destiny, the galaxy at large, never pretend to be anything other than what they are, and yet are still fundamentally decent people who are incredibly loyal to those they care about.

If I had a force ghost appearing to me yammering about my destiny and telling me not to use certain force abilities merely because they are arbitrarily labeled "dark side" (despite being able to be used to help people) I'd probably tell him to kark off, too.

- Yulian

Cade is only fun to read about when Jariah Syn is beating him up.

Cade is fundamentally decent the way Cornwall is fundamentally granite. Without the constant wind erosion and the efforts of under-paid miners you'd never notice.

He's not a bad character, but he's a terrible central character. I just kept wishing the writers would say "you're right Cade, you don't have to save the universe, someone else will do it for you". The only reason he was in the story at all was that Darth Krayt needed him to heal him, so basically Cade was just a McGuffin with angst and eighties hair.

Didn't help that all of Cade's story lines were needlessly padded and full of backsteps while everyone else's were concise and to the point.

[SmartAlec]

Luke is a pretty solid choice for the movies. My only problem with him in the EU is that he's essentially the equivalent of Goku; he's the most powerful being at this point, and it's kinda ridiculous how ridiculous he is.

In most fiction Luke comes across as quite the twit, but the Return of the Jedi/Thrawn Trilogy/Hand of Thrawn Duology Luke is the character from the franchise that most defines 'Jedi' to me.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm tempted to say Porkins for favorite movie character. Aside from a handful of others, he's got to be near the top of characters with speaking parts that no one can remember the name of. Speaking of which, does anyone know without looking at Wookiepedia who the guy that Vader strangled on the Tantive IV was named?

[RabbitHoleLost]

I have a Fettish, I'll admit. I was always a Fett fan. I love that jerk. Han comes in close second, and I have to say that Obi Wan is pretty high on the list, too. Ooo, and Aayla. I love that darling, sexy Twi'lek.

EU-wise, I'm pretty much only a fan of TOR and the Clone Wars, so my favorite character there is split between Canderous Ordo (I love mah Mandos when they're evil) and several of the named Clones, with Rex being a particular, but Bly also a favorite.
Does Plo Koon count? 'cause I like him bunches, too.

[chiasaur11]

Films, Wedge.

Cliche, but what the heck, the man deserves the praise he gets.

EU?

RC 1138, Boss. (Game version)

Hated Episode 3. Hate all the prequels, but that one was the worst, as far as I'm concerned.

And the clones killing all the Jedi didn't help convince me of quality. I mean, we are talking a few thousand superhumans with precog vs. stormtroopers.

However, while I still hate ROTS, I can now believe it, on one condition.

Boss and his squad made all those kills. Yes, they took the shots from halfway across the galaxy. Yes, they are that good.

A man kills over ten thousand battle droids solo? When they aren't pushovers?

Yeah. He's worth watching.

[Zaydos]

Honestly Jedi's suck at precog in the films except as far as attacks from known enemies are concerned.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I mean, we are talking a few thousand superhumans with precog vs. stormtroopers.

Clones=/= Stormtroopers from the original series. Atleast, not the first batch o'clones from III.
They were pretty superhuman, too, in a different way. And not all Jedi were OMG unbeatable. In the expanded universe of the Clone Wars, many of the Jedi weren't as badass as the ones on the screen.
And its not like the Jedi ever suspected the Clones, really. Atleast, not most of them. Even if you're godlike, you never expect a friend to shoot you in the back.

[IthroZada]

I thought it was pretty great when Palpatine turned out to be in the middle of saving the galaxy from an invasion by taking it over, and by overthrowing him Luke left the Republic almost defenseless. Given a few more years and Palpatine would have been a hero to the Republic.

One thing that I never understood, is that Jedi aren't allowed to love, and love destroyed Anakin. But some of the best and most important Jedi definitely fell in love, or at least had the option to with no galaxy ending consequences. For example, KoTOR I, KoTOR II, and the Force Unleashed.

[LOTRfan]

Well, although heroes, none of them where exactly the ideal Jedi. Revan was evil before being mindraped retaught to be good. The Jedi Exile, she was just that- an exile. And Galen, well..... he wasn't exactly a hero until the very end, let alone an actual Jedi.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I thought it was pretty great when Palpatine turned out to be in the middle of saving the galaxy from an invasion by taking it over, and by overthrowing him Luke left the Republic almost defenseless. Given a few more years and Palpatine would have been a hero to the Republic.

One thing that I never understood, is that Jedi aren't allowed to love, and love destroyed Anakin. But some of the best and most important Jedi definitely fell in love, or at least had the option to with no galaxy ending consequences. For example, KoTOR I, KoTOR II, and the Force Unleashed.

Lets not forget that Anakin had no moderation in his life at all, and I would argue that, infact, anger and fear was what destroyed Anakin, not love.
The boy couldn't move on after bad things happened to him.

[IthroZada]

Lets not forget that Anakin had no moderation in his life at all, and I would argue that, infact, anger and fear was what destroyed Anakin, not love.
The boy couldn't move on after bad things happened to him.

That all is true about Anakin, he was absolutely unstable, but the three games I listed are still very bad examples of love ruining Jedi like the masters said it should.

[Thrawn183]

I'll have to credit my creator with making me the best thing about the EU.

[RabbitHoleLost]

That all is true about Anakin, he was absolutely unstable, but the three games I listed are still very bad examples of love ruining Jedi like the masters said it should.

But then, you also have Aayla and Kit Fisto, who totally had a romance and were still pretty alright Jedi. Maybe not the best, but their romance didn't ruin the whole universe.
Granted, they did call it off, so...

Its like none of the Force users were aware of "moderation".

[Zaydos]

They said attachment would ruin Jedi; and in Anakin's case they were right as his attachment led to a fear of losing that which he loved to an extent where it drove him to the Dark Side.

At the same time, it was love that redeemed Anakin at the end of Return of the Jedi. It was a love without fear of loss, because Anakin had accepted that he would die and thus lose Luke (he had accepted it before he killed Palpatine since word of god is that Vader knew that force lightning would fry the machinery in his body and that he'd die against it).

Also the games don't care one whit about movie canon (canonically there was never a Sith lord stronger than Palpatine, which says good bye to KOTOR and KOTOR II).

[TheThan]

Original trilogy Darth Vader is still the best. But when you take in the whole, I guess mine would be Han.
Out of the EU I like Corran Horn, Mara Jade, and Anakin Solo, especially after he learns a thing or two from Mara. I also really like Garik “the face” Loran, Kell Tainer, Tycho Celchu. Basically the entirety of both Rogue and Wrath squadrons.

I’ve lost interest in the Jedi as a whole. I find the “wankdalorian” crap in the OJR and NJO not to mention the clone trooper love to be irritating at best. I’m interesting in normal characters, and rogue and wrath squadron is filled with normal people, completely awesome people, but still normal.

[cdstephens]

That all is true about Anakin, he was absolutely unstable, but the three games I listed are still very bad examples of love ruining Jedi like the masters said it should.

The Jedi Order in the prequels are different from the other Jedi Orders really. NJO you can marry people, and I'm pretty sure some Jedi Orders in the Old Republic don't care either.

[TheThan]

The Jedi Order in the prequels are different from the other Jedi Orders really. NJO you can marry people, and I'm pretty sure some Jedi Orders in the Old Republic don't care either.

It seems to me that being allowed to create a strong family unit would be much more beneficial to a young Jedi than being whisked away from your family at a young age and raised with a bunch of other orphans by people who might not even care for you. Then they’re forced to go through rigorous physical and mental training in the hopes of molding you into some sort of formidable warrior/monk. If you’re lucky you get picked by an older Jedi and become his apprentice (whether you want that guy to teach you or not), and get whisked away yet again to who knows where on some adventure.

Yeah it seems like a nice, strong family unit where the child naturally grows in the force as he ages would be much more effective for generating a stable Jedi than taking people from their homes. Granted the numbers would be down, but you’ll probably generate better Jedi, that way.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Original trilogy Darth Vader is still the best. But when you take in the whole, I guess mine would be Han.
Out of the EU I like Corran Horn, Mara Jade, and Anakin Solo, especially after he learns a thing or two from Mara. I also really like Garik “the face” Loran, Kell Tainer, Tycho Celchu. Basically the entirety of both Rogue and Wrath squadrons.

I’ve lost interest in the Jedi as a whole. I find the “wankdalorian” crap in the OJR and NJO not to mention the clone trooper love to be irritating at best. I’m interesting in normal characters, and rogue and wrath squadron is filled with normal people, completely awesome people, but still normal.

Then why be interested in Star Wars at all?
There are thousands of SciFi series about "normal" people. Star Wars grabbed me when I was six because of how magical and powerful everything was.
If I wanted to read about awesome fighter pilots, I'd read WWII novels.

[Lady Moreta]

In most fiction Luke comes across as quite the twit, but the Return of the Jedi/Thrawn Trilogy/Hand of Thrawn Duology Luke is the character from the franchise that most defines 'Jedi' to me.

That's because Timothy Zahn can do no wrong :smallbiggrin: I agree though, Luke was at his best in those books.


I'm tempted to say Porkins for favorite movie character. Aside from a handful of others, he's got to be near the top of characters with speaking parts that no one can remember the name of. Speaking of which, does anyone know without looking at Wookiepedia who the guy that Vader strangled on the Tantive IV was named?

I believe it was meant to be Captain Antilles (no relation to Wedge :smalltongue:). I'm not sure though.

And I'd just like to mention that I can remember Porkins' name.

Also, favourite characters: movie has always been Luke. Books has always been Corran Horn.

[Dienekes]

Then why be interested in Star Wars at all?
There are thousands of SciFi series about "normal" people. Star Wars grabbed me when I was six because of how magical and powerful everything was.
If I wanted to read about awesome fighter pilots, I'd read WWII novels.

You see, part of why Badass Normals are the most awesome of the badass is because they get to be awesome not with some fancy-arse powers but because they're just that awesome. It's (part of) why Han was more popular than Luke. Sure Luke is a rising magic, light sword wielding monk but Han just shrugs says "screw that" and shoots his opponents.

Mandalorians as a whole messed up when someone decided to make them nearly as rigged as the magic users they were up against. Sure you can say technically they're Badass Normals, but it's expected of them so it doesn't count.

Then take a guy like Wedge, no powers, no random probably unsustainable culture of warriors. Just a plain guy who made his place in a universe filled with demigods. He is the one I want to read about.

[snoopy13a]

Movies: Han with honorable mentions to Yoda, C3P0 and Wicket the Ewok

EU: I don't know... maybe Nomi Sunrider?

[TheThan]

Then why be interested in Star Wars at all?
There are thousands of SciFi series about "normal" people. Star Wars grabbed me when I was six because of how magical and powerful everything was.
If I wanted to read about awesome fighter pilots, I'd read WWII novels.

OH I love star wars, I love Jedi, but I’ve found that as of late, very few of the Jedi are actually interesting to read about. That’s why I like the Jedi I’ve listed above, they are far more interesting to read about. I loved it when Mara Jade told Luke that’s he’s responsible for killing millions of people when he blew up the first Death Star. I loved reading about Anakin Solo doing insane stuff with the force and not realizing that his friends couldn’t do the same sort of stuff. He didn’t realize just how utterly powerful he really was. I loved reading about Corran’s evolution from cop, to Rebel pilot to Jedi. That was all interesting, fun and cool.

What I don’t like is reading about how powerful a Jedi is by how much he can lift with the force. Or how skilled he is with his lightsaber. I’m not interested in an emotionless Jedi that doesn’t actually seem to care about the situation he finds himself in. I don’t like reading about Jedi that use the force to force a resolution.

Like wise I’m interested in people with histories and backgrounds. Not clones that look are literally identical to each other. Face it, the clones were the bad guys, they were programmed to be from their inception. I’m tired of hearing about that one special group that didn’t turn on the Jedi. I’m tired of that one special guy that is 1000 times more formidable than the rest of his fellows, despite him being exactly like the others. I just don’t like clone troopers, and please don’t get me started on the mandolorians.

[Mando Knight]

Its like none of the Force users were aware of "moderation".
Which is one reason why I like Luke's order. Not only does the whiny teenager eventually become a wise-and-badass Grand Master in his own right (rather than just riding off of the fame of "Last of the Old Jedi, First of the New" and "Ooh, look! I'm Vader's son! The guy who blew up a Death Star and forced his father to have a deathbed conversion!"), but recognizing the shortage of Jedi and the easiest way of getting recruits (both older and new), as well as his own romantic attractions, he let the Jedi have romantic relationships of their own. Most of which haven't turned into a Vader-and-Padmé situation *cough*Caedus*cough*.

[RabbitHoleLost]

You see, part of why Badass Normals are the most awesome of the badass is because they get to be awesome not with some fancy-arse powers but because they're just that awesome. It's (part of) why Han was more popular than Luke. Sure Luke is a rising magic, light sword wielding monk but Han just shrugs says "screw that" and shoots his opponents.

Mandalorians as a whole messed up when someone decided to make them nearly as rigged as the magic users they were up against. Sure you can say technically they're Badass Normals, but it's expected of them so it doesn't count.

Then take a guy like Wedge, no powers, no random probably unsustainable culture of warriors. Just a plain guy who made his place in a universe filled with demigods. He is the one I want to read about.
Yeah, not so much to me, really. I don't...really like badass normals in fiction, not gonna lie. I find them boring. But, hey, to each his own. I think we have enough badass normals in real life.

Granted, I'm not a huge fan of the Jedi or the Sith. I like them well enough, I guess, but the fact those both sides are largely just too extreme makes it a little too much for me.


OH I love star wars, I love Jedi, but I’ve found that as of late, very few of the Jedi are actually interesting to read about. That’s why I like the Jedi I’ve listed above, they are far more interesting to read about. I loved it when Mara Jade told Luke that’s he’s responsible for killing millions of people when he blew up the first Death Star. I loved reading about Anakin Solo doing insane stuff with the force and not realizing that his friends couldn’t do the same sort of stuff. He didn’t realize just how utterly powerful he really was. I loved reading about Corran’s evolution from cop, to Rebel pilot to Jedi. That was all interesting, fun and cool.

What I don’t like is reading about how powerful a Jedi is by how much he can lift with the force. Or how skilled he is with his lightsaber. I’m not interested in an emotionless Jedi that doesn’t actually seem to care about the situation he finds himself in. I don’t like reading about Jedi that use the force to force a resolution.

Like wise I’m interested in people with histories and backgrounds. Not clones that look are literally identical to each other. Face it, the clones were the bad guys, they were programmed to be from their inception. I’m tired of hearing about that one special group that didn’t turn on the Jedi. I’m tired of that one special guy that is 1000 times more formidable than the rest of his fellows, despite him being exactly like the others. I just don’t like clone troopers, and please don’t get me started on the mandolorians.
Oh, hell yes they were the badguys.
I'll never deny that. I mean, maybe there was a group who didn't shoot their commanding Jedi officers, but they were few and far inbetween and were not enough to represent the Troops.

What I like in the Clones( aside from the fact that they're all Fett =P) is the moral debates and the philosophy lessons that come so frequently with them.
Yes, they were the bad guys. Yes, their entire existance was an evil, evil plot to overthrow the Jedi so that a Sith could rule the Galaxy.
But everyone knows I love my badguys, and I love knowing what makes them bad.

As for Mandalorians, I can't say I'm a huge fan of how much they've been painted to be misunderstood badasses.
No.
No, they're a mercenary culture. They care about their families and themselves and money, and frak everyone else. They are not good guys. They're not romantic. They're villains.
Boba Fett was a villain and a jerk, and I love him passionately (also, italics!).
For the most part, my fellow Fandalorians make me cringe, I'll be honest( except for @^ner vod). They want to construe this crap into making both Fetts romantic antiheroes who just happened to bump heads with the protagonists, when, in reality, the two were just out to get what they want and make those Credits.
My fellow Fandalorians forget that the Mandos aligned more frequently with the Sith than the Jedi. They want to make it seem like we're just fans of a very gray middle faction, when in reality the Mandalorians were at best off-black in the terms of good vs evil, and a nuisance in the side of the Force Users.

However, I will state I agree with your stance on Force Users and awesomeness vs OMGFORCEPOWAAAAAH.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, not so much to me, really. I don't...really like badass normals in fiction, not gonna lie. I find them boring. But, hey, to each his own. I think we have enough badass normals in real life.

Granted, I'm not a huge fan of the Jedi or the Sith. I like them well enough, I guess, but the fact those both sides are largely just too extreme makes it a little too much for me.

Of course, to each there own. It's why in games I rarer if ever go magic user. And why Batman is my favorite member of the Justice League (if you can call him normal..)


Oh, hell yes they were the badguys.
I'll never deny that. I mean, maybe there was a group who didn't shoot their commanding Jedi officers, but they were few and far inbetween and were not enough to represent the Troops.

What I like in the Clones( aside from the fact that they're all Fett =P) is the moral debates and the philosophy lessons that come so frequently with them.
Yes, they were the bad guys. Yes, their entire existance was an evil, evil plot to overthrow the Jedi so that a Sith could rule the Galaxy.
But everyone knows I love my badguys, and I love knowing what makes them bad.

As for Mandalorians, I can't say I'm a huge fan of how much they've been painted to be misunderstood badasses.
No.
No, they're a mercenary culture. They care about their families and themselves and money, and frak everyone else. They are not good guys. They're not romantic. They're villains.
Boba Fett was a villain and a jerk, and I love him passionately (also, italics!).
For the most part, my fellow Fandalorians make me cringe, I'll be honest. They want to construe this crap into making both Fetts romantic antiheroes who just happened to bump heads with the protagonists, when, in reality, the two were just out to get what they want and make those Credits.
My fellow Fandalorians forget that the Mandos aligned more frequently with the Sith than the Jedi. They want to make it seem like we're just fans of a very gray middle faction, when in reality the Mandalorians were at best off-black in the terms of good vs evil, and a nuisance in the side of the Force Users.

However, I will state I agree with your stance on Force Users and awesomeness vs OMGFORCEPOWAAAAAH.

I'll be honest. I never got where the Fett love ever came from. The coolest thing he did in the Original Series was talk back to Vader and not get choked.

Besides that... he misses killing one punk with a sword while he had a gun, and a rocket launcher/jetpack. He gets hit by a blind guy and goes careening off the edge and falls into a hole in the ground. Ehh.

I never even knew he had a fan base until my friend showed me EU outside the Thrawn trilogy. So, I'm gonna ask you in a completely serious non-mocking way. What about Fett is actually cool?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Of course, to each there own. It's why in games I rarer if ever go magic user. And why Batman is my favorite member of the Justice League (if you can call him normal..)
>>
Batman is my favorite, too, so I guess this is an exception.
Though he also comes with a lot of moral/ethical/philosophic debate, so I guess he gets lumped in with my Clone love :smalltongue:

I never even knew he had a fan base until my friend showed me EU outside the Thrawn trilogy. So, I'm gonna ask you in a completely serious non-mocking way. What about Fett is actually cool?
Do you want a serious answer, or a fangirl answer?
Or a serious, non-fangirl answer?

[snoopy13a]

I'll be honest. I never got where the Fett love ever came from. The coolest thing he did in the Original Series was talk back to Vader and not get choked.

What about Fett is actually cool?

Boba Fett is one of my least favorite characters but you can't judge him from Return of the Jedi. He does his best work in Empire.

[Dienekes]

>>
Batman is my favorite, too, so I guess this is an exception.
Though he also comes with a lot of moral/ethical/philosophic debate, so I guess he gets lumped in with my Clone love :smalltongue;

Batman does kind of fall into a category of his own.


Do you want a serious answer, or a fangirl answer?
Or a serious, non-fangirl answer?

All of the above if you have the time.


Boba Fett is one of my least favorite characters but you can't judge him from Return of the Jedi. He does his best work in Empire.

For me, he didn't even make a big enough impression to be least favorite. He was just kind of there.

[dgnslyr]

Of course, to each there own. It's why in games I rarer if ever go magic user. And why Batman is my favorite member of the Justice League (if you can call him normal..)



I'll be honest. I never got where the Fett love ever came from. The coolest thing he did in the Original Series was talk back to Vader and not get choked.

Besides that... he misses killing one punk with a sword while he had a gun, and a rocket launcher/jetpack. He gets hit by a blind guy and goes careening off the edge and falls into a hole in the ground. Ehh.

I never even knew he had a fan base until my friend showed me EU outside the Thrawn trilogy. So, I'm gonna ask you in a completely serious non-mocking way. What about Fett is actually cool?

Well, he's got the cool suit of armor, the cool blaster rifle, and a jetpack/rocket launcher. What's not to like? Apart from that, not much, I guess, but he definitely looks cool.

[Thrawn183]

Essentially that he just keeps coming back. Nobody's able to actually kill the guy and he does it without having jedi for friends.

[snoopy13a]

For me, he didn't even make a big enough impression to be least favorite. He was just kind of there.

It's more of a reaction from his fans making a big deal about him and I'm not a huge fan of the EU authors bringing him "back to life" either. I feel similarily about Darth Maul.

[Zaydos]

Well for one his armor just looks plain cool, there's his informed ability as one of the greatest bounty hunters in the galaxy, and he caught Han Solo.

Honestly though my brother was the Fett fan (and then mainly after reading the EU story about Fett), I always thought he was kind of meh.

[Reverent-One]

Yeah, not so much to me, really. I don't...really like badass normals in fiction, not gonna lie. I find them boring. But, hey, to each his own. I think we have enough badass normals in real life.

How is it the clones and Mando's don't get classified as Badass normals by you? Because that's pretty much what they are.

As for me, the X-Wing series and Republic/Imperial Commando series are favorites of mine for much the same reasons. Both have rather large casts mostly made up of badass normals, without big emphasis on the Jedi or the Skywalker/Solo clan. It's a refreshing change of pace from most of the EU.

[RabbitHoleLost]

All of the above if you have the time.
Well, I mean, the first time I saw him, I was six. Just a little tomboyish girl. My dad started me on Empire Strikes Back, so I had to constantly ask what was going on.
"Daddy, how did that boy get his lightsword from all the way across the ice?"
And he told me "Magic"

When you're six, you don't care about cool deaths. And, to be honest, I can't remember what drew me to Fett at first. All I knew was by the end of Episode V, my six year old heart was set on marrying him :smalltongue:
True facts.

Nowadays, I know what he looks like under that helmet, and it sets my heart a-flutter :smallwink:

I have soft spots for villains and bit players. I admire strength and courage, and being able to have the kahoonas to talk back to Vader is courage in and of itself. He was the single good thing about the Christmas special, and he's just so resourceful.

But, back to little Rabbit, and her first impressions.
Look at the guy. Just look at him. He looks awesome. His beskar'gam/Mandalorian Armor? Awesome.
Helmets, too, play an important part in Star Wars. The badguys, the really scary ones- all have hemlets. Cannon-wise, everyone was terrified of him except your cast of superpowered badasses.
And he didn't even have any powers!
He was just a dude with guns and rocket launchers and a jetpack.
My six year old self could hardly contain her excitement and awe.
And, lets face it. In Ep V, who else was as mysterious as that helmet-ed stranger everyone else that wasn't Vader or Luke thought was scary?
He has, what, maybe three lines? But he's foreboding. He'd bad news. You know it. Everyone else knows it.
You just don't know why.
And its that wondering that caught me, in the end, and keeps me, even as I discover more and more of how much of a badass he is in the EU.
"The Sarlaac found me somewhat indigestible."
Yes.

Again, it comes down to my personal preferences. I can understand why others become irritated with his fandom and the Fandalorians. I get it, really. To the point where its almost embarrassing and I feel like I lose SW fangirl cred for claiming him as my favorite character.
But nothing anyone else will ever say will break my first love from me :smalltongue:


How is it the clones and Mando's don't get classified as Badass normals by you? Because that's pretty much what they are.

Mandalorians as a whole messed up when someone decided to make them nearly as rigged as the magic users they were up against. Sure you can say technically they're Badass Normals, but it's expected of them so it doesn't count.

This, pretty much.
They're expected to keep up with the Force users, so they're not really normal.

[Trog]

Since everyone seems to be saying what they like about Star Wars and such I'll do my geeky duty and do so as well.

First of all I never got into the expanded universe and the only forays I've had beyond the movies are the Clone Wars animated series (and the *shudder* movie) and one novel which I didn't care for and... hmmm.. what else. Oh! The Christmas Special when I was a kid. :smalltongue::smallwink:

For favorite characters I'll break it down thusly:
Ep. IV, V, VI:
Villain: Vader - classic evil badassness
Hero: Han - Banter is good.
Other: Jawas! :smallbiggrin: "Utini!"

Ep. I, II, III:
Villain: Darth Maul - Good fight scenes, should have lived for another movie. (yes I know he lived in EU :smalltongue:)
Hero: R2-D2 - Just because I have a soft spot for him.
Other: Jango Fett - Finally... a cool Fett fight. :smalltongue:

Beyond the movies: (er... okay basically just the Clone Wars series here I guess)
Villain: Hondo Ohnaka - I like the guy's style. :smallamused:
Hero: Ahsoka - Don't know why but I like her.
Other: Clones - in the Clone Wars series I do enjoy how they are portrayed and find that I like them more than than most of the other characters.

[Reverent-One]

This, pretty much.
They're expected to keep up with the Force users, so they're not really normal.

They're still pretty normal for the Star Wars universe. I would have a hard time rating mandos above most of the other badass normals, like Rogue/Wraith squadron and the like, the thing is that the area mandos are most badass in is straight up combat, while the other normals you find generally show badass-itude in other ways (say by hijacking super star destroyers). Even then you've got the likes of the Noghri, who are on a similar par as mandos when it comes to fighting.

[Lord Blace]

So, first love and jedi: this is probably my main reason for thinking Bindo is the most awesome gray jedi ever. He says something along the lines of that the jedi shouldn't be taught that love is bad but how to tell the difference between love and passion and to control that passion. That love wouldn't destroy you, but save you. Bindo rocks.
Clones being bad guys. How? I believe intent is extremely important when commiting an action, and the clones were following an order they were GENETICALLY PROGRAMMED to obey. Only some of the strongest willed were able to resist the command (the ones with a close relationship with their jedi general). It's one of the reasons I've seen used for why the jedi-senses didn't tingle, there was just no malicious intent behind what they did. Aside from Palps of course.

Edit: -High5's Trog.- Hell yes, I LOVE jawas! <.< -Hopes they're eaither a playable race or a companion race in TOR.-

[RabbitHoleLost]

So, first love and jedi: this is probably my main reason for thinking Bindo is the most awesome gray jedi ever. He says something along the lines of that the jedi shouldn't be taught that love is bad but how to tell the difference between love and passion and to control that passion. That love wouldn't destroy you, but save you. Bindo rocks.
Clones being bad guys. How? I believe intent is extremely important when commiting an action, and the clones were following an order they were GENETICALLY PROGRAMMED to obey. Only some of the strongest willed were able to resist the command (the ones with a close relationship with their jedi general). It's one of the reasons I've seen used for why the jedi-senses didn't tingle, there was just no malicious intent behind what they did. Aside from Palps of course.

Bly and Aayla were BFFs. And he shot her. In the back.
And intent does not make a bad thing okay.
You know what they say about the road to hell and good intentions.

[TheThan]

They're still pretty normal for the Star Wars universe. I would have a hard time rating mandos above most of the other badass normals, like Rogue/Wraith squadron and the like, the thing is that the area mandos are most badass in is straight up combat, while the other normals you find generally show badass-itude in other ways (say by hijacking super star destroyers). Even then you've got the likes of the Noghri, who are on a similar par as mandos when it comes to fighting.

yeah, but with the mando's you can see them coming a mile away. the Noghri, if you see them, its already too late. not to mention the phrase "Lady Vader", just sounds awesome.

[Zaydos]

In the EU Boba Fett is at his most awesome when he's not going the direct battle route. Think about how he caught Han in Episode V; he didn't out fight him he predicted exactly what Han would do. Boba lost when he fought, because he IS a bounty hunter; he's a sneak dude that uses his head and doesn't fight when he doesn't have to.

This is also why while Boba's always been kind of meh to me I like him vast swathes better than Jango.

[Reverent-One]

Bly and Aayla were BFFs. And he shot her. In the back.


Of course. The Jedi tried to usurp power from the lawfully elected chancellor, dirty traitors. :smallwink:

[Moff Chumley]

Palpatine, original series and EU. :smallcool:

[RabbitHoleLost]

Of course. The Jedi tried to usurp power from the lawfully elected chancellor, dirty traitors. :smallwink:
And those filthy rebels blew up an outpost and killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent Troopers just trying to do their jobs :smalltongue:

Its also times like this I wish I could cite political history in my argument of why the Clones' intentions didn't matter in their badguyness.

Edit: I guess I should say I'm also a Stormtrooper fangirl :smalltongue:
LONG LIVE THE EMPIR-
Crap.

[Zaydos]

Well the Stormtroopers looked awesome, and their informed ability as marksmen was amazing; unfortunately that was another of Obi-Wan Kenobi's lies and they couldn't hit the broad side of a star destroyer.

Did I mention R2-D2 was cooler before he had rocket jets, and Obi-Wan become my favorite character due to Episodes 2 and 3 (although the original Obi-Wan was awesome, his role as a mentor figure did not appeal to me at the age of 10 and earlier).

[Reverent-One]

Its also times like this I wish I could cite political history in my argument of why the Clones' intentions didn't matter in their badguyness.


I'd classify them more as tools of the bad guy than bad guys themselves. They just want to protect the Republic, which they have been genetically modified and indoctrinated from birth to do. As far as they know, the Jedi have turned bad on them, making them enemy combatants.

[Lord Blace]

Bly and Aayla were BFFs. And he shot her. In the back.
And intent does not make a bad thing okay.
You know what they say about the road to hell and good intentions.

I said intentions because there were none afaik it's because of their genetic programming. Kind of like how in d&d commiting evil acts while dominated doesn't earn you an evil alignment. -Shrug.- Maybe I just have a more sympathetic outlook for the clones.
Edit: Rabbits, I think the trials after WW2 were the ones that established that 'following orders' was not an adequate argument. BUT. There is a big difference between following orders and my freaking dna is making me do this.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I said intentions because there were none afaik it's because of their genetic programming. Kind of like how in d&d commiting evil acts while dominated doesn't earn you an evil alignment. -Shrug.- Maybe I just have a more sympathetic outlook for the clones.

Well, of course I'm Sympathetic to them.
I s'pose I should have used antagonists as opposed to badguys.

[Reverent-One]

Well, of course I'm Sympathetic to them.
I s'pose I should have used antagonists as opposed to badguys.

Antagonists I'll agree with (depending on what time period we're talking about).

[cdstephens]

Does anyone notice how good this sounds on paper, but how it fails horribly?

Boba Fett together with Chewbacca rides a dinosaur on a planet of jello shooting lasers at the Empire.

Btw, we all hate KT right?

[Reverent-One]

Btw, we all hate KT right?

If by KT you mean Karen Traviss, then no. I disagree with a lot of the complaints about her Star Wars novels, hence why they're some of my favorites, and really am disappointed she's not going to finish the Republic/Imperial Commando series herself.

[Lord Blace]

If by KT you mean Karen Traviss, then no. I disagree with a lot of the complaints about her Star Wars novels, hence why they're some of my favorites, and really am disappointed she's not going to finish the Republic/Imperial Commando series herself.

Heheh. I remember a conversation I was having with RHL about the mando retcon, saying it IS GL's property to do/ruin as we wishes, and then had to immediately eat my own words as the vibrosword retcon appeared shortly after. :smalltongue:

[Zaydos]

If I was going to complain about an author it would be Kevin J. Anderson. Good writer in his own worlds, but he started a major level of Jedi power creep that I found distasteful. Good for winning arguments about who would win Star Wars or Star Trek, though. Sun Crusher (I sat through three arguments, trying not to participate, which came down to halfway through me suggesting the sun crusher; being ignored and 20 to 40 minutes later having the argument end when they finally decided the sun crusher won).

[Reverent-One]

Heheh. I remember a conversation I was having with RHL about the mando retcon, saying it IS GL's property to do/ruin as we wishes, and then had to immediately eat my own words as the vibrosword retcon appeared shortly after. :smalltongue:

Ugh, the mando retcon. Even if Karen Travis had never written anything about the mandos that would not have sat well with me. And what's this vibrosword retcon?

[Lord Blace]

No blocky lightsabers anymore. Look up the death watch clone wars episodes. The leader with the... darksaber... it was originally supposed to be a vibrosword. GL pretty much said no, that nothing but another lightsaber can block a lightsaber. @.@

[cdstephens]

If by KT you mean Karen Traviss, then no. I disagree with a lot of the complaints about her Star Wars novels, hence why they're some of my favorites, and really am disappointed she's not going to finish the Republic/Imperial Commando series herself.

I'm just gonna leave this here.....

http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28128642/p5

[Dienekes]

Well, I mean, the first time I saw him, I was six. Just a little tomboyish girl. My dad started me on Empire Strikes Back, so I had to constantly ask what was going on.
"Daddy, how did that boy get his lightsword from all the way across the ice?"
And he told me "Magic"

When you're six, you don't care about cool deaths. And, to be honest, I can't remember what drew me to Fett at first. All I knew was by the end of Episode V, my six year old heart was set on marrying him :smalltongue:
True facts.

Nowadays, I know what he looks like under that helmet, and it sets my heart a-flutter :smallwink:

I have soft spots for villains and bit players. I admire strength and courage, and being able to have the kahoonas to talk back to Vader is courage in and of itself. He was the single good thing about the Christmas special, and he's just so resourceful.

But, back to little Rabbit, and her first impressions.
Look at the guy. Just look at him. He looks awesome. His beskar'gam/Mandalorian Armor? Awesome.
Helmets, too, play an important part in Star Wars. The badguys, the really scary ones- all have hemlets. Cannon-wise, everyone was terrified of him except your cast of superpowered badasses.
And he didn't even have any powers!
He was just a dude with guns and rocket launchers and a jetpack.
My six year old self could hardly contain her excitement and awe.
And, lets face it. In Ep V, who else was as mysterious as that helmet-ed stranger everyone else that wasn't Vader or Luke thought was scary?
He has, what, maybe three lines? But he's foreboding. He'd bad news. You know it. Everyone else knows it.
You just don't know why.
And its that wondering that caught me, in the end, and keeps me, even as I discover more and more of how much of a badass he is in the EU.
"The Sarlaac found me somewhat indigestible."
Yes.

Again, it comes down to my personal preferences. I can understand why others become irritated with his fandom and the Fandalorians. I get it, really. To the point where its almost embarrassing and I feel like I lose SW fangirl cred for claiming him as my favorite character.
But nothing anyone else will ever say will break my first love from me :smalltongue:

Ok this clears it up some.

Show of hands, anyone else a bit disturbed by the imagery of Rabbit here having her heart stolen by a monster with a bucket head? I kid, I kid.

I guess I can see where he comes from. The dude knew when to not talk to be certain, he's foreboding. But it's part of why I actually liked Jubal Early more than the character he was obviously being made a parallel of. Jubal had character, Boba didn't really seem to have any to me. And apparently what little personality he got (He was totally hitting on that alien chick in Jabba's palace) seems lost with the EU version of him.

Another thing is that I very rarely let appearances overwhelm my view of a character. Best example I can think of is when The Phantom Menace first came out my brother and I had a small discussion when we watched the trailer. He claimed that demon looking guy is going to be awesome, my response was let's see what he actually does first. Lo and behold after the movie, he was another silent warrior type with no lines and barely any personality. Awesome fight scene though.

It hardly surprises me at all he has a fan base growing around him.

In appearance I thought the coolest looking SW villain was actually Grievous (feel free to disagree completely). Unfortunately from the movies he was as big a failure as Boba, bigger really as all we see him do is run away after getting bested by the heroes.

Now in my opinion a great villain needs in rough order= a personality, a foreboding voice, intense background music, and finally a good appearance. Boba only had the latter to me, so he was never of much interest.

[Lord Blace]

Oh man, Grievous from the 2d clone wars shorts was awesome, all the way until Windu freaking force-crushed his chest! ^.^
...Another retcon I'm sad was made.

[chiasaur11]

Shoot!

I forgot my actual favorite EU guy.

Or rather, supercanonical extra double G canon guy.

Tag Greenly!

Bink is also great, to be fair. But only one of them got to use a jetpack.

[Dienekes]

No blocky lightsabers anymore. Look up the death watch clone wars episodes. The leader with the... darksaber... it was originally supposed to be a vibrosword. GL pretty much said no, that nothing but another lightsaber can block a lightsaber. @.@

But... then... what the hell were Grievous' bodyguard droids using?

[chiasaur11]

But... then... what the hell were Grievous' bodyguard droids using?

You're expecting any consistency from Lucas?

Quick, everyone! Innocence!

We need a vote. Mockery, protection, or feeding?

[Lord Blace]

But... then... what the hell were Grievous' bodyguard droids using?

I think the 'reasoning,' and I use that term loosely here, was that it was the crackling energy that blocked the sabers, not the weapon its self. I'll find a link in a little.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

I guess my hope for a Star Wars discussion of celebration and harmony was a bit far-fetched...

Anyway, favorite characters? Hm...

Movies, I'm going with Obi-Wan, across both trilogies. I dig the Samurai thing he had going in New Hope, and McGregor's performance was the best in the prequels by a fair amount. (Though there's something to be said for Sam Jackson, of course.)

The EU is a bigger fish to fry, of course. Gonna break it down by medium. Quinlan Vos and Aayla Secura are the stand-outs as far as comics go. General Kota for video games. I haven't read enough of the novels to make an informed opinion, but I like Zahn's portrayal of Luke quite a bit. And Clone Wars is still a developing field, obviously, but Ahsoka continues to grow on me. I was also glad to see one-shot characters return recently, especially Chuchi and Hevy, Echo, and Fives.

[SmartAlec]

Re: Jedi and love

Always had the impression that this whole 'Jedi can't love' thing was based on the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism; that the main cause of personal suffering in this world is the belief that you need things - things you want, things you want to be, and things you want to be able to stop or get rid of. Those sound like the beginnings of a start down the Dark Side to me.

Although Joruus C'baoth sounded sinister as all hells when he said "What does not matter to a Jedi Master does not matter to the universe," he was more or less correct. One day your teachers will pass on; your friends and family will, too; the love of your life, as well, and even you. Don't be scared of this, but try to be philosophical about it.

So it's not really love that's the problem; Jedi can love, sure. But it's loving without obsession and with a clear-minded view of your love in the context of all other things that Jedi should aspire to. Having had 10,000 or so years of Jedi going 'wrong' from various causes, including not being able to let go of conditioned desires, I can see why Yoda's Jedi Order just decided to start young and drum the basics into people from Day 1.

When people ask Jedi, 'so, you're not allowed to love?' that's their misunderstanding of the precepts. Anakin possibly gets it wrong because he joined too early and because he was already head-over-heels for someone when he did. Either that, or it's because he was the most powerful student but the worst pupil ever.

[Closet_Skeleton]

One thing that I never understood, is that Jedi aren't allowed to love, and love destroyed Anakin. But some of the best and most important Jedi definitely fell in love, or at least had the option to with no galaxy ending consequences. For example, KoTOR I, KoTOR II, and the Force Unleashed.

Plenty of Jedi are allowed to love, in differant eras.



Also the games don't care one whit about movie canon (canonically there was never a Sith lord stronger than Palpatine, which says good bye to KOTOR and KOTOR II).

Except they do, and nobody in KotOR 1 or 2 is as powerful as EU Palpatine except for Nihilus, who according to Kreia what he does can't really be called "his power". Nobody in KotOR 1 ever destroyed a star fleet by opening a giant wormhole on top of it.


If I was going to complain about an author it would be Kevin J. Anderson. Good writer in his own worlds, but he started a major level of Jedi power creep that I found distasteful.

He also apparently ruined Dune, and I have no idea about the quality of his original work.


No blocky lightsabers anymore. Look up the death watch clone wars episodes. The leader with the... darksaber... it was originally supposed to be a vibrosword. GL pretty much said no, that nothing but another lightsaber can block a lightsaber. @.@

I'm pretty sure when I saw the behind the scenes for that episode Dave Filony said that vibroswords still exist but they just won't appear when GL is looking.


I think the 'reasoning,' and I use that term loosely here, was that it was the crackling energy that blocked the sabers, not the weapon its self. I'll find a link in a little.

Lucas didn't want something that was a sword that could block lightsabers. The staffs were okay because they weren't swords, apparently.

You could clearly make a Phrik electro-sword, but Lucas wants Jedi to be special and be the only guys with magic swords.

[Dienekes]

I think the 'reasoning,' and I use that term loosely here, was that it was the crackling energy that blocked the sabers, not the weapon its self. I'll find a link in a little.

That is the worst cop out ever.

As for the whole love thing. I just pretend that the Order takes a vow to think of the Force/the Republic as their bride and be done with it. Plenty of historical religious orders do this as a form of symbolism and a way of cementing an initiates relation to the cause. And then I just ignore the finer philosophy as to why which makes no sense to me at all. Much easier in my opinion.

Kind of life how I pick and choose comic book stories based on my interests and ignore the rest.

Another minor question here. What was the Mando retcon that got KT so worked up about? I've only read a couple of her books mind you, didn't really like or dislike them. Honestly I didn't think she was so great a writer to get worked up about, but then I'm barely an initiate when it comes to SWEU.

[Zabel_Zarock]

That a large group of Mando's decided to become pacifist after war royaly screwed them over. But don't worry about it KT, is a bug ****ing nuts hose beast. Everything would have been fine if she hadn't lost it and her books wouldn't have been considered discontinuity cause she nuts.

[Dienekes]

That a large group of Mando's decided to become pacifist after war royaly screwed them over. But don't worry about it KT, is a bug ****ing nuts hose beast. Everything would have been fine if she hadn't lost it and her books wouldn't have been considered discontinuity cause she nuts.

Huh that's it? A counter revolution seems reasonable to me, hell, don't the Mandos rise up and get their arse handed to them every time anyhow? It wouldn't make sense that the culture doesn't evolve some.

Though from what I've heard KT seems nuts just based off of comparing her detractors to the Taliban. Yeah, that is sure classy.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Does anyone notice how good this sounds on paper, but how it fails horribly?

Boba Fett together with Chewbacca rides a dinosaur on a planet of jello shooting lasers at the Empire.

Btw, we all hate KT right?
I...have mixed feelings about KT.
I mean, she basically created the Mando'a language and the fluff of the Mandalorian culture.
On the one hand, this is awesome. On the other hand, it encouraged my fellow Fandalorians to think the Mandalorians are something other than what they are.
She writes sad emotional scenes and introspection very well, especially in the RC/IC novels, which,of course, appeals to my interest in Clones especially. Is it right to use the Clones? Do they really have any rights?
Ooo, Ms. Traviss, you had me at "ETHICAL ISSUES".
However, the woman can't write a good female character to save her life. Etain had her moments, yes, but was essentially just a token Jedi. Hell, Jusik fit the bill better than her. She was the token Jedi to fall in love with a Clone and make a Clone-Jedi babeh.
Don't even get me started on any of the other female characters. Or course, there are other people's complaints about her not understanding the military or what have you (even though she was a military reporter beforehand?), but that doesn't bother me in the least.
I've had my fill of the military, thanks.
As an extension of her lacking females, she can't write romance well, either :smallsigh:
And, oooo, her little contribution to the Clone Wars book series, No Prisoners, or something like that made me squeal happily with the Clones and the ethics of Jedi and the sect that allowed marriage coming in and all that. And hinting Ahsoka had a crush?
oiahfbdkvqdfjbvd YES
But, then again, she portrayed Ahsoka in such an obnoxious way (her inability to write a proper

What bothers me mostly is how she flipped **** when George Lucas was like "Yeah. You know everything I told you about the Mandalorians, and everything you made up that I said was good? Yeah, uh, we're not doing that anymore."
I can understand her frustration. I can understand why she might be upset. But absolutely flipping out and refusing to finish the series, and then insulting Star Wars fans on top of it?
No, lady. You go sit in the corner. You don't quit Star Wars.
We're firing you.

And, UGH. The Fandalorians who call her buir :smallyuk:


If by KT you mean Karen Traviss, then no. I disagree with a lot of the complaints about her Star Wars novels, hence why they're some of my favorites, and really am disappointed she's not going to finish the Republic/Imperial Commando series herself.
She did send an email out to her hardcore fans who cried about how the series ends.
I'll see if I can find it for you tonight.


Oh man, Grievous from the 2d clone wars shorts was awesome, all the way until Windu freaking force-crushed his chest! ^.^
...Another retcon I'm sad was made.
GRIEVOUS WAS TERRIFYING IN THE 2D SHORTS.
Like when they're all "PALPS, GRIEVOUS IS GONNA KIDNAP YOU" and they hear him coming and everyone goes silent.
AND THEN HE JUST STICKS HIS HEAD UPSIDE DOWN IN THE WINDOWS LIKE "HI GUIZ"


Heheh. I remember a conversation I was having with RHL about the mando retcon, saying it IS GL's property to do/ruin as we wishes, and then had to immediately eat my own words as the vibrosword retcon appeared shortly after. :smalltongue:
I practically cried.
Seriously, George Lucas? Seriously?
I think it came down to the fact that the Mandos had so much attention, and he didn't want his poor baby Jedi to be ignored.

[Reverent-One]

I'm just gonna leave this here.....

http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28128642/p5

Have the book, read the book, like the book. As did a fair number of people in that thread.


What bothers me mostly is how she flipped **** when George Lucas was like "Yeah. You know everything I told you about the Mandalorians, and everything you made up that I said was good? Yeah, uh, we're not doing that anymore."
I can understand her frustration. I can understand why she might be upset. But absolutely flipping out and refusing to finish the series, and then insulting Star Wars fans on top of it?
No, lady. You go sit in the corner. You don't quit Star Wars.
We're firing you.

Yeah, I like her books, but care little for her as a person.


She did send an email out to her hardcore fans who cried about how the series ends.
I'll see if I can find it for you tonight.


Really? That's interesting. AFAIK, they're still planning on finishing the series, but just bring in a different author, so I wonder if they're going to change how it would have ended. It would be interesting to see at least.

[The Big Dice]

Nowadays, I know what he looks like under that helmet, and it sets my heart a-flutter :smallwink:
Boba Fett doesn't look like you think he does under that helmet. A British guy called Jeremy Bulloch played that part.

http://www.bigbaddaddyvader.com/Jeremy-Bulloch.jpg

That's what he looks like.

In the EU Boba Fett is at his most awesome when he's not going the direct battle route. Think about how he caught Han in Episode V; he didn't out fight him he predicted exactly what Han would do. Boba lost when he fought, because he IS a bounty hunter; he's a sneak dude that uses his head and doesn't fight when he doesn't have to.

This is also why while Boba's always been kind of meh to me I like him vast swathes better than Jango.
All Boba Fett did was follow Han Solo. Who used a trick Boba had seen before. Vader caught him. Unless all those Stormtroopers that came to the dining room worked for Fett. And so did Vader, who was the one Han actually shot at.

What the EU did with the character was pure fanboyism. And Lucas was completely unaware of it until he started to prep for Episode 2. Which is even funnier, to Lucas, Fett was just the bounty hunter, nothing more and nothing less.

[Reverent-One]

Boba Fett doesn't look like you think he does under that helmet. A British guy called Jeremy Bulloch played that part.

http://www.bigbaddaddyvader.com/Jeremy-Bulloch.jpg

That's what he looks like.

So Chewbacca actually looks like Peter Mayhew? Darth Vader looks like a combination of David Prowse, James Earl Jones, and Sebastian Shaw? Actors != Characters

[Dienekes]

So Chewbacca actually looks like Peter Mayhew? Darth Vader looks like a combination of David Prowse, James Earl Jones, and Sebastian Shaw? Actors != Characters

The Chewbacca one doesn't make sense in context as he is not wearing a fake head, I don't think.

But yeah the rest you make a valid point.

Amusingly in AotC the fact that Boba appeared to be a complete sociopath was the most amusing bit of the movie. Something about a child laughing at people dying just makes an amusing villain. Of course in EU he is an honorable warrior guy, not a deranged sociopath but oh well.

[druid91]

I...have mixed feelings about KT.
I mean, she basically created the Mando'a language and the fluff of the Mandalorian culture.
On the one hand, this is awesome. On the other hand, it encouraged my fellow Fandalorians to think the Mandalorians are something other than what they are.
She writes sad emotional scenes and introspection very well, especially in the RC/IC novels, which,of course, appeals to my interest in Clones especially. Is it right to use the Clones? Do they really have any rights?
Ooo, Ms. Traviss, you had me at "ETHICAL ISSUES".
However, the woman can't write a good female character to save her life. Etain had her moments, yes, but was essentially just a token Jedi. Hell, Jusik fit the bill better than her. She was the token Jedi to fall in love with a Clone and make a Clone-Jedi babeh.
Don't even get me started on any of the other female characters. Or course, there are other people's complaints about her not understanding the military or what have you (even though she was a military reporter beforehand?), but that doesn't bother me in the least.
I've had my fill of the military, thanks.
As an extension of her lacking females, she can't write romance well, either :smallsigh:
And, oooo, her little contribution to the Clone Wars book series, No Prisoners, or something like that made me squeal happily with the Clones and the ethics of Jedi and the sect that allowed marriage coming in and all that. And hinting Ahsoka had a crush?
oiahfbdkvqdfjbvd YES
But, then again, she portrayed Ahsoka in such an obnoxious way (her inability to write a proper

What bothers me mostly is how she flipped **** when George Lucas was like "Yeah. You know everything I told you about the Mandalorians, and everything you made up that I said was good? Yeah, uh, we're not doing that anymore."
I can understand her frustration. I can understand why she might be upset. But absolutely flipping out and refusing to finish the series, and then insulting Star Wars fans on top of it?
No, lady. You go sit in the corner. You don't quit Star Wars.
We're firing you.

And, UGH. The Fandalorians who call her buir :smallyuk:

I practically cried.
Seriously, George Lucas? Seriously?
I think it came down to the fact that the Mandos had so much attention, and he didn't want his poor baby Jedi to be ignored.

Mother?Had to actually look that up.

But I think the thing that makes me laugh about Mando'a is the greeting.
It always makes me think of something like this.

Mandalorian 1: Still alive?
Mandalorian 2: *Checks to make sure* Yeah.

[mangosta71]

I think it came down to the fact that the Mandos had so much attention, and he didn't want his poor baby Jedi to be ignored.
Consider how big the galaxy is. 10000 star systems siding with the Trade Federation wasn't enough to get a majority in the Senate, meaning that there are over 20000 populated systems. 300 ships really isn't that much - they're as small a proportion of the galaxy's total population as the Jedi. It's the same scaling problem that plagues the entire universe. I enjoy the movies and many of the games, but I have to turn off the bit of my brain that understands mathematics when I indulge.

[The Big Dice]

Consider how big the galaxy is. 10000 star systems siding with the Trade Federation wasn't enough to get a majority in the Senate, meaning that there are over 20000 populated systems. 300 ships really isn't that much - they're as small a proportion of the galaxy's total population as the Jedi. It's the same scaling problem that plagues the entire universe. I enjoy the movies and many of the games, but I have to turn off the bit of my brain that understands mathematics when I indulge.

You get the same problem in Star Trek, where they talk about things happening a few hundred or a few thousand kilometers away. Even though that usually means it's right on top of them. I mean, a ship at warp 1 is going a couple hundred thousand miles a second.

Star Wars having issues with numbers is much the same thing. And both shows suffer from things being more advanced in the past, according to the way the prequel shows and movies look.

[mangosta71]

You get the same problem in Star Trek, where they talk about things happening a few hundred or a few thousand kilometers away. Even though that usually means it's right on top of them. I mean, a ship at warp 1 is going a couple hundred thousand miles a second.

I'm well aware of that. ST tries so hard (and fails just as hard) to be sci-fi. At least SW admits that it's more fantasy adventure than sci-fi. Which is why I can still enjoy it.

[Mushroom Ninja]

My favorite character would have to be R2-D2/C3P0. Han is a close second.

[cdstephens]

I'm well aware of that. ST tries so hard (and fails just as hard) to be sci-fi. At least SW admits that it's more fantasy adventure than sci-fi. Which is why I can still enjoy it.

Unfortunately some Star Wars fans are in denial about this.

To them:

*Points at the Force*

[TheThan]

My favorite character would have to be R2-D2/C3P0. Han is a close second.

R2-D2/C3PO were so much funnier than Jar Jar. I mean C3PO was R2-D2's straight man. their banter is really quite funny. 3PO telling R2 to watch is language is funny where listening to Jar Jar destroy English and juggle is generally not funny. If I wanted to watch someone juggle I would go to the circus or something.

[Zabel_Zarock]

Someone already said it but it needs to be said again, Etain is a horrible horrible HORRIBLE character. She was so bland & wishy washy I couldn't care less when she died, & on top of that she died in the most retarded way possible, and earlier when she finally has a chance to stand up for herself again Skirata when it comes to HER child......she caves in & Hands him over to Kal. Ugh.

[SmartAlec]

Re: Boba Fett

I'm always half a day late on these topics, it seems. Anyhow.

Although it's been said that The Empire Strikes Back is the movie to watch if you like Fett - I agree - my favourite Fett moment, and the point at which I felt he suddenly took on a personality beyond that of the Black Hat, was in Return of the Jedi.

It's the scene in which Chewbacca is dragged into Jabba's court by the bounty hunter, Boushh (it's Leia in disguise, but we don't know that yet). There's a tense stand-off as Boushh pulls out a thermal detonator in order to bargain a higher bounty price out of Jabba. Everyone, including Fett, is on edge. And then, Jabba and Boushh come to an agreement.

And Fett gives Boushh this little nod. This little salute, one bounty hunter to another, that simply says 'nicely done'. It's such a little thing, but it's such a nice little detail, and it makes it clear there's a genuine character and a personality under that helmet. It gives us a little glimpse into how his mind works. I liked that.

[cdstephens]

I'd like to make it clear that I don't like KT because of her not so good writing as much as her utter lack of professionalism.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Really? That's interesting. AFAIK, they're still planning on finishing the series, but just bring in a different author, so I wonder if they're going to change how it would have ended. It would be interesting to see at least.
Its been nearly a year since they've announced that, though, and not a single person has stepped up to take over it.
Again, I'll find it for you when I get back. Just stepped in in between jobs to reply and send a FB note to the boyfriend.
Its..well, don't get your hopes up :smalltongue:


Boba Fett doesn't look like you think he does under that helmet. A British guy called Jeremy Bulloch played that part.

http://www.bigbaddaddyvader.com/Jeremy-Bulloch.jpg

That's what he looks like.

That's what the body actor looks like.
Also, Jeremy Bulloch is the nicest man ever.
I totally have his autograph on my wall =)

His wife was totally chill with me telling him that I'd been in love with Boba since I was six. Told me I had good taste =P


Mother?Had to actually look that up.

But I think the thing that makes me laugh about Mando'a is the greeting.
It always makes me think of something like this.

Mandalorian 1: Still alive?
Mandalorian 2: *Checks to make sure* Yeah.
Srsly.
Su'cuy is one of the best greetings of a fictional language I've ever heard =)

[druid91]

Srsly.
Su'cuy is one of the best greetings of a fictional language I've ever heard =)

So.. why do they call her buir?

[Trog]

Edit: -High5's Trog.- Hell yes, I LOVE jawas
:smallbiggrin: I've loved them ever since I got a large-sized action figure of one when I was a kid. *high 5's* ^(^_^)>


Consider how big the galaxy is. 10000 star systems siding with the Trade Federation wasn't enough to get a majority in the Senate, meaning that there are over 20000 populated systems. 300 ships really isn't that much - they're as small a proportion of the galaxy's total population as the Jedi. It's the same scaling problem that plagues the entire universe. I enjoy the movies and many of the games, but I have to turn off the bit of my brain that understands mathematics when I indulge.
Yeah, I see this as a problem that plagues the SW universe and some other fictional settings - oversimplification of certain things for the sake of the story at hand. Under even mild scrutiny many things don't add up. And this is fine if later everyone is cool with saying "well that was only a focused view" The problem is when the creator insists on their narrow and unrealistic view as still being right. Haven't read enough EU stuff to know if this is the case with Lucas but in reading over this thread it seems to be trending that way.

Also, can I just say that that "darksaber" or what-have-you in the that one Clone Wars episode gave me a total geekgasm at how freakin COOL it was? 'Cuz it totally did. And the noise it made was freakin cool too. Then again I had the same feeling when Greivous' body guard droids pulled out those bug zapper staves. Regardless of what Lucas wants I enjoy a little variety and having different sorts of things that can be used in a lightsaber duel makes for interesting, fun fights.

On the subject of lightsabers, was anyone else annoyed that the youngling jedi's had mini lightsabers? I'm not annoyed at the size but like... seriously there should be a LOT more younglings with missing limbs and whatnot. Lightsabers are like the most dangerous thing in the universe, if they were real, and giving one to a kid seems like a recipe for "whoops I cut my leg off."

Cue people pointing out the superior reflexes of jedis a la Ep. I Anakin and the pod racing. But despite that I still say it seems like a bad idea until they get a little older. Maybe this is just the dad in me. I did quite like the teen-aged jedi coming out of the temple and kicking ass though. So maybe it was just the very small children with lightsabers thing that irked me a bit.

And Fett gives Boushh this little nod. This little salute, one bounty hunter to another, that simply says 'nicely done'. It's such a little thing, but it's such a nice little detail, and it makes it clear there's a genuine character and a personality under that helmet. It gives us a little glimpse into how his mind works. I liked that.
The Boba Fett Nod™ has been a staple in my gaming group as a universal sign of professional respect. I agree it gave the character of Fett (as he existed solely in the movies) a bit more depth. Also thumbs up on that.

[Zaydos]

:smallbiggrin: I've loved them ever since I got a large-sized action figure of one when I was a kid. *high 5's* ^(^_^)>

Jawas are awesome.



On the subject of lightsabers, was anyone else annoyed that the youngling jedi's had mini lightsabers? I'm not annoyed at the size but like... seriously there should be a LOT more younglings with missing limbs and whatnot. Lightsabers are like the most dangerous thing in the universe, if they were real, and giving one to a kid seems like a recipe for "whoops I cut my leg off."

Cue people pointing out the superior reflexes of jedis a la Ep. I Anakin and the pod racing. But despite that I still say it seems like a bad idea until they get a little older. Maybe this is just the dad in me. I did quite like the teen-aged jedi coming out of the temple and kicking ass though. So maybe it was just the very small children with lightsabers thing that irked me a bit.

Younglings are given training lightsabers, can't cut only sting and possibly bruise. Don't ask me the logic behind that, or the science, but it is the only canonical answer I've heard.



The Boba Fett Nod™ has been a staple in my gaming group as a universal sign of professional respect. I agree it gave the character of Fett (as he existed solely in the movies) a bit more depth. Also thumbs up on that.

Yeah that was awesome of him.

[Xondoure]

They were training lightsabers, the worst they could do was a small burn. Not enough to maim the kids but enough to get them to respect handling it.

[druid91]

:smallbiggrin: I've loved them ever since I got a large-sized action figure of one when I was a kid. *high 5's* ^(^_^)>


Yeah, I see this as a problem that plagues the SW universe and some other fictional settings - oversimplification of certain things for the sake of the story at hand. Under even mild scrutiny many things don't add up. And this is fine if later everyone is cool with saying "well that was only a focused view" The problem is when the creator insists on their narrow and unrealistic view as still being right. Haven't read enough EU stuff to know if this is the case with Lucas but in reading over this thread it seems to be trending that way.

Also, can I just say that that "darksaber" or what-have-you in the that one Clone Wars episode gave me a total geekgasm at how freakin COOL it was? 'Cuz it totally did. And the noise it made was freakin cool too. Then again I had the same feeling when Greivous' body guard droids pulled out those bug zapper staves. Regardless of what Lucas wants I enjoy a little variety and having different sorts of things that can be used in a lightsaber duel makes for interesting, fun fights.

On the subject of lightsabers, was anyone else annoyed that the youngling jedi's had mini lightsabers? I'm not annoyed at the size but like... seriously there should be a LOT more younglings with missing limbs and whatnot. Lightsabers are like the most dangerous thing in the universe, if they were real, and giving one to a kid seems like a recipe for "whoops I cut my leg off."

Cue people pointing out the superior reflexes of jedis a la Ep. I Anakin and the pod racing. But despite that I still say it seems like a bad idea until they get a little older. Maybe this is just the dad in me. I did quite like the teen-aged jedi coming out of the temple and kicking ass though. So maybe it was just the very small children with lightsabers thing that irked me a bit.

The Boba Fett Nod™ has been a staple in my gaming group as a universal sign of professional respect. I agree it gave the character of Fett (as he existed solely in the movies) a bit more depth. Also thumbs up on that.

I believe they are training sabers, they lack the beam intensity to really cut.

[Trog]

@ the above posters:

Ah, I see. Training ones make sense, though they looked the same as normal ones. Should have found way to represent that visually in the film because otherwise they looked the same as Yoda's, basically. Oh well. Bet they make killer toast. :smalltongue:

[cdstephens]

@ the above posters:

Ah, I see. Training ones make sense, though they looked the same as normal ones. Should have found way to represent that visually in the film because otherwise they looked the same as Yoda's, basically. Oh well. Bet they make killer toast. :smalltongue:

What's funny is that the Sith training vibroblade is designed so it feels exactly the same as if you got hit with a lightsaber, except it doesn't physically damage you (or at least, not too much).

[RabbitHoleLost]

What's funny is that the Sith training vibroblade is designed so it feels exactly the same as if you got hit with a lightsaber, except it doesn't physically damage you (or at least, not too much).

Its like some bug poison or something that stings like hell and causes paralysis, isn't it?

Reverent-One: Agh! Seems I never read the email myself, but just the condensed version from this (http://www.thedentedhelmet.com/f34/darman-skiratas-kit-37535/) thread on TheDentedHelmet.
Not much of an explanation, unfortunately. Sorry :smallfrown:

[Battleship789]

I'm tempted to say Porkins for favorite movie character. Aside from a handful of others, he's got to be near the top of characters with speaking parts that no one can remember the name of. Speaking of which, does anyone know without looking at Wookiepedia who the guy that Vader strangled on the Tantive IV was named?

I believe it was meant to be Captain Antilles (no relation to Wedge ). I'm not sure though.

Last name is Antilles, not sure of first. :P No relation to Wedge at all. C-3PO mentions him to Luke a little later in A New Hope.

Along this trend of thought...who wants to take a guess at who shot C-3PO in Empire when he gets separated from the others on Cloud City? Without looking at Wookiepedia of course. Bossk


But... then... what the hell were Grievous' bodyguard droids using?

"Electrostaffs" are their weapons...I suppose they have magnetically repulsive ends. Its the only thing that makes sense!!!! (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0009.html)


So.. why do they call her buir?

It is Mando'a for mother/father (depends on context)...


Its like some bug poison or something that stings like hell and causes paralysis, isn't it?

Yea, there are barbs on the swords that have a stinging/paralysis effect. Sounds like fun. :smallamused:

Might as well do a "resume" of my Star Wars knowledge...I've read almost all (missed Millennium Falcon) of the novels that take place after ANH (I own most of the NJO series and most of the books that take place after it), and almost all of them before (Coruscant Nights are the main ones I haven't read, I think I've missed a few Clone Wars novels as well). I've played/own close to all of the video games and RPGs. My main lacking in Star Wars literature is comics sadly. Of course I have seen the movies :smallwink: and cartoons, but not the 3D ones (not sure if this is good or bad...) or Droids/Ewoks (also not sure if this is good or bad). I'll think of my favorite characters later...

[Mr. Scaly]

No blocky lightsabers anymore. Look up the death watch clone wars episodes. The leader with the... darksaber... it was originally supposed to be a vibrosword. GL pretty much said no, that nothing but another lightsaber can block a lightsaber. @.@

Wait, what? Do prhik metal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrostaff) and cortosis (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis) no longer exist anymore? o.O


Random aside: is anyone else interested in how The Force Unleashed 2 comes out this month? :smallbiggrin:

[RabbitHoleLost]

It is Mando'a for mother/father (depends on context)...
Yup. They don't have gender-specific terms. I suppose it might get confusing.

Yea, there are barbs on the swords that have a stinging/paralysis effect. Sounds like fun. :smallamused:
I only know that 'cause I just started the Bane series and had just read it Wednesday night :smallbiggrin:

Might as well do a "resume" of my Star Wars knowledge...I've read almost all (missed Millennium Falcon) of the novels that take place after ANH (I own most of the NJO series and most of the books that take place after it), and almost all of them before (Coruscant Nights are the main ones I haven't read, I think I've missed a few Clone Wars novels as well). I've played/own close to all of the video games and RPGs. My main lacking in Star Wars literature is comics sadly. Of course I have seen the movies :smallwink: and cartoons, but not the 3D ones (not sure if this is good or bad...) or Droids/Ewoks (also not sure if this is good or bad). I'll think of my favorite characters later...
Well, I'm pretty biased towards the Clone Wars era, but I love the current Clone Wars Cartoon.
The movie is awful, but the cartoon is great. Even if its responsible for turning my Manda'yaim to a peaceful planet :smallannoyed:

Wait, what? Do prhik metal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrostaff) and cortosis (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis) no longer exist anymore? o.O

It exists. It just doesn't save from Lightsabers.
Neither does beskar metal, anymore.

[Morty]

As far as the movies are concerned, I feel the same way as most people: the original trilogy is good, in a tongue-in-cheek way, and the new trilogy is bad - Phantom Menace being worse than the other two. It's hard to say who is my favorite character.
As for EU, I only know the games - though I've only played both KoToRs in full. Other than that, I played some of the Jedi Knight and Jedi Academy series. I think I could perhaps read some of the books, but from what I've heard, they're very hit-or-miss.

[Mando Knight]

It exists. It just doesn't save from Lightsabers.
Neither does beskar metal, anymore.

Well, technically, none of them were automatic anti-saber win-buttons in the first place (except for pure or nearly-pure cortosis, which supposedly shuts 'sabers off, but I've always viewed that as silly). They pretty much always have been lightsaber resistant, much like a "fireproof" or "bulletproof" object is actually just highly resistant to fire or bullets, respectively. They'll block most blows that a Jedi will make with a lightsaber (since they don't need to apply their full strength to a swing to bisect a droid with light durasteel plating, for example), but enough blows of enough strength or a long-term enough contact would have always cut through them.

[/Willing suspension of disbelief]I mean, if they're immune to a weapon of nearly pure energy, how the hell could anyone machine them? And how could they have bonded together into more than little clumps of molecular junk?

[Yulian]

Wait, what? Do prhik metal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrostaff) and cortosis (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis) no longer exist anymore? o.O


Boy, the Imperial Knights are going to be shocked, as is Roan Fel. Stuff saved his life not to long ago.




It exists. It just doesn't save from Lightsabers.
Neither does beskar metal, anymore.

Then they may as well not exist at all, since that's all they were created for.

- Yulian

[Closet_Skeleton]

It exists. It just doesn't save from Lightsabers.
Neither does beskar metal, anymore.

Except it does. You just can't use it to make swords.

Jeez, everyone is massively over-reacting and doesn't appear to have actually looked at what was said for themselves.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Except it does. You just can't use it to make swords.

Jeez, everyone is massively over-reacting and doesn't appear to have actually looked at what was said for themselves.

Where did it specify that?
Because I remember this being one of the things miss Traviss flipped over. That Beskar was pretty much useless, because GL decided it wasn't not Saber resistant anymore.

[TruorTupnm]

Ah. Yay Star Wars!

Favorite movie characters ---> Threepio and Artoo, and only from the original trilogy. Aren't they the reason people keep coming back? Aren't they the essence of the Star Wars vibe? Then Darth Vader, also only from the original trilogy, mostly because I love it when the bad guys steal the spotlight from the good guys. Then Lando, because I always feel sorry for the guy.

Favorite book characters ---> Leia. Although, it really depends on who's writing. Some versions of Leia are horrible. I mostly like her because she knows and is always prodded about how powerful she could be, but she always sticks with what she's used to and deals with most problems as any normal person would. Corran Horn is fairly achingly awesome, too, but I see him as less of a Star Wars character (Woo as well as Hoo! Entertaining crazy science fiction adventure!) and more of just what would be the coolest dude in real life. Everyone loves Thrawn. I do, too, but he can't be my favorite, because he's too popular. Han from the A. C. Crispin books was fairly awesome. Oh, and Jaster Mereel.

Which brings me to the Fett and Mandalorian craziness that you people are typing about. Ugh. Boba Fett will always be Jaster Mereel, to myself. A dude who picked up some armour that belonged to some ancient warrior culture, just because it came with an intimidating aura. I was confused, when people started talking about Mandalorians popping out of the woodwork. I was pretty sure that they were some long-dead race. I wasn't even sure if they were supposed to be some kind of boring human. Argh. Why are they some kind of boring human? Why can't there be more cool and unique non-humans around? Man, they should have killed Luke or somebody. Why Chewie? Always pickin' on the non-humans. *sniff*

Towards Kevin J. Anderson ---> The first Star Wars book that I ran into was one of his Young Jedi Knights ones. It was quite age-appropriate for myself, at the time, and I was a fan. Of course, once I read stuff by Timothy Zahn and Michael A. Stackpole, well, dang. How does that Kevin J. Anderson dude keep getting work? Yay for I, Jedi, making fun of him!

[Zaydos]

Kevin J Anderson can write some really good books... set in his own universes.

His Star Wars novels are some of the worst I've read, and there are plenty of bad Star Wars novels (my favorite SW novels would be Stackpole's).

[Bouregard]

Well, technically, none of them were automatic anti-saber win-buttons in the first place (except for pure or nearly-pure cortosis, which supposedly shuts 'sabers off, but I've always viewed that as silly). They pretty much always have been lightsaber resistant, much like a "fireproof" or "bulletproof" object is actually just highly resistant to fire or bullets, respectively. They'll block most blows that a Jedi will make with a lightsaber (since they don't need to apply their full strength to a swing to bisect a droid with light durasteel plating, for example), but enough blows of enough strength or a long-term enough contact would have always cut through them.

[/Willing suspension of disbelief]I mean, if they're immune to a weapon of nearly pure energy, how the hell could anyone machine them? And how could they have bonded together into more than little clumps of molecular junk?

Because they are brittle as brimstone. You can hack your way through a pure cortosis wall with a wooden club, but a lightsaber will do negligible damage to it, yes you can break through cortosis and phrik with lightsabers... your fingernails are just more effective.


They way I understand is Cortosis will shut off Lightsabers but is useless in any other means. It may be heat resistant but is incredibly rare and expensive and too brittle to use for other protective purposes.

Phrik is extremly heat resistant, quite durable and while not as rare as Cortosis also expensive. It will not short out a lightsaber, but hamper the progress.


The main reason that not every bad guy and his mommy runs around encased in a phrik/ pure cortosis armor is however the price. Even a thin layer of that stuff is incredible expensive, so only rich guys can afford it like the confederacy and the royal guard.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Where did it specify that?

The behind the scenes talks David Filony has posted on the main website for the clone wars cartoon series.


Because I remember this being one of the things miss Traviss flipped over. That Beskar was pretty much useless, because GL decided it wasn't not Saber resistant anymore.

Karen Traviss didn't specify any retcons as causing her to leave and instead claimed she left due to something else. Its just that she announced she was leaving at the same time as some pre-release materials for the Clone Wars made it look like there was a big retcon coming that might destroy the plots of her books.

[RabbitHoleLost]

The behind the scenes talks David Filony has posted on the main website for the clone wars cartoon series.

In which case, mah apologies. I was lead to believe elsewise.

[pendell]

I must now show my ignorance, and ask for help clearing it up.

1) George Lucas has officially declared some of Karen Travis' work discontinuity? Is there any records? It appears that she has made some comments about her departure from the series.

Can someone provide me with the links to this little dustup? I enjoyed 'Triple Zero' by KT, was meh on her other books , read them up through 'Order 66'.

2) There are additional books planned or written beyond Order 66 in the Republic Commando / Imperial Commando series? Which ones has KT written?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I must now show my ignorance, and ask for help clearing it up.

1) George Lucas has officially declared some of Karen Travis' work discontinuity? Is there any records? It appears that she has made some comments about her departure from the series.

Can someone provide me with the links to this little dustup? I enjoyed 'Triple Zero' by KT, was meh on her other books , read them up through 'Order 66'.
Really, there wasn't an official quote on KT's work being non-canon, its just kind of implied since everything she wrote about is now in complete contrast with the new canon of Mandalorians and Mandalore, via the Clone Wars cartoon.


2) There are additional books planned or written beyond Order 66 in the Republic Commando / Imperial Commando series? Which ones has KT written?

And, upon looking up the article on Wookiepedia that once claimed it was going to be picked up by another author, it seems its officially been cancelled (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Commando_2).
Also, KT has written all of the RC/IC novels.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I must now show my ignorance, and ask for help clearing it up.

Okay, good start.


1) George Lucas has officially declared some of Karen Travis' work discontinuity?


No, because the only reason there are problems is that he doesn't care, so if he cared to make an official statement there wouldn't be any problems.


Is there any records?It appears that she has made some comments about her departure from the series.


Yeah, on her blog apparently.

http://karentraviss.typepad.com/blog/2009/08/end-of-one-era-start-of-another.html


Really, there wasn't an official quote on KT's work being non-canon, its just kind of implied since everything she wrote about is now in complete contrast with the new canon of Mandalorians and Mandalore, via the Clone Wars cartoon.

Plenty of people have already shown how the Clone Wars Cartoon only has minor conflicts with other EU stuff, mainly the look appearances and climates of certain planets.

In some ways, Karen Travis' material has more problems with older stuff about the Mandalorians than newer stuff has with her novels.

TCW series also backs up some things that Travis tried to start, such as Mandalorians not being an almost extinct culture by the time of the Clone Wars.

TCW had Mandalorians being a peaceful society with a pacifist leader, but also a highly military past and a fringe faction that wanted to return to the good old ways. Travis' books show a section of Mandalorian culture that are militaristic and have strong honour codes. These in themselves do not need to conflict. The main problem is that in the cartoon Mandalore was a nuclear wasteland and in the novels it had farms and greenery.

Nothing in Star Wars has ever been declared non-canon apart from the Marvel comics, and they've partly been written back in, and infinities works that were clearly stated as never having been canon. There are just a lot of contradictions, some of which have explanations.

[Mr. Scaly]

Kevin J Anderson can write some really good books... set in his own universes.

His Star Wars novels are some of the worst I've read, and there are plenty of bad Star Wars novels (my favorite SW novels would be Stackpole's).

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for KJA's Star Wars stuff to be honest. At least the Jedi Academy trilogy anyway, since that was my introduction to Star Wars EU. At the time I was pretty impressed...until I found Timothy Zahn. Still though, I don't think it's the WORST material in the whole EU. What about The Crystal Star and Splinter of the Mind's Eye?

[cdstephens]

Wait, what? Do prhik metal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrostaff) and cortosis (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis) no longer exist anymore? o.O


Random aside: is anyone else interested in how The Force Unleashed 2 comes out this month? :smallbiggrin:

Lucas doesn't like vibroblades, and pretends the EU doesn't exist.

[cdstephens]

Because they are brittle as brimstone. You can hack your way through a pure cortosis wall with a wooden club, but a lightsaber will do negligible damage to it, yes you can break through cortosis and phrik with lightsabers... your fingernails are just more effective.


They way I understand is Cortosis will shut off Lightsabers but is useless in any other means. It may be heat resistant but is incredibly rare and expensive and too brittle to use for other protective purposes.

Phrik is extremly heat resistant, quite durable and while not as rare as Cortosis also expensive. It will not short out a lightsaber, but hamper the progress.


The main reason that not every bad guy and his mommy runs around encased in a phrik/ pure cortosis armor is however the price. Even a thin layer of that stuff is incredible expensive, so only rich guys can afford it like the confederacy and the royal guard.

Actually, there are two main reasons why cortosis is so common in the Old Republic era (Jedi Civil War, Exar Kun, Great War, etc.) but not so common during the Rise of the Empire era and beyond.

First off, in the Old Republic era, the Republic fought many wars against the Sith, and as such cortosis was more widely used. For both sides was cortosis extremely useful. In the Rise of the Empire era, the Sith were thought to be extinct, and as such the only group that used lightsabers were the Jedi, who were no longer militarized (after the Sith were thought to be defeated) nor were they fighting any large scale wars. Thus, cortosis was simply not needed.

The second reason is that because cortosis is extremely hard to mine, since pure cortosis ore will kill anyone who touches it, and it is extremely heat resistant. This obviously causes a low supply.

So low supply and low demand means extremely high prices and that its rarely used.

[TruorTupnm]

Kevin J. Anderson's Star Wars books are good in some ways and bad in others. They have plenty of cool ideas, and they do keep the good as well as old Star Wars vibe of the original trilogy, unlike any of the books written since the N. J. O. series. I just don't like the guy's writing style, or the mostly two-dimensional characters. I liked the Dune series, but I doubt that I'll pick up any of these newer ones. Also, yes, I agree that The Crystal Star and Splinter Of The Mind's Eye are much worse.

[Hawriel]

I loved reading about Corran’s evolution from cop, to Rebel pilot to Jedi. That was all interesting, fun and cool.

What I don’t like is reading about how powerful a Jedi is by how much he can lift with the force. Or how skilled he is with his lightsaber. I’m not interested in an emotionless Jedi that doesn’t actually seem to care about the situation he finds himself in. I don’t like reading about Jedi that use the force to force a resolution.

Like wise I’m interested in people with histories and backgrounds. Not clones that look are literally identical to each other.

I quoted the parts that really get to the point of what I think of the EU.

Befor the whole NJO story line Luke had a moment of true character growth. Not just as Luke the farmboy, or Luke the Jedi, but as Luke the Jedi Grand Master of the Jedi. Luke had a moment of understanding on how the Jedi was to grow as an order, and how Jedi where supposed to fit with in the Republic as a nation and society. A big part of this understanding was him falling in love with mara. He also thaught heavily on how the order used to conduct itself.

The order of the Old Republic cloisterd its self off from the rest of society. It shunned many emotions that it feard. Love being one of the big ones. The result was that the order was completly out of touch with the rest of the galaxy. How can a jedi be trusted to serve justice and peace if they close themselves off from what makes peaple work? How can Jedi be trusted with having great power if they have no true place in society?

Luke's sollution was very simple. The jedi should find their place by having normal roles in society. They will fall in love and have families. This will give them the experience they need emotionaly to understand emotion and how it effects their ability to use the force. Trust your emotions, do not be afraid of them. Having a family (not limited to husband/wife/kids) will give them a place. By shunning family, hiding from emotion they lose the understanding of the basic motivations of why peaple do what they do.

Get a job. This was a second part of lukes thinking. Jedi should get invalved with a real profesion. 800 pound force using taking the law into my own hands action hero is not a real job. It doesnt even build any thing but misstrust and fear. Jedi should have jobs, be real diplomats, engineers, soldiersj, teachers, doctors, police and what ever els a jedi would love to do. This puts them into society. It would give jedi an understanding of how things work. By having a real job that serves the public they are showing the public that they are 'human' too. They care about society. They are interacted with on a daily bases. Then by having a real profesional backgound they can actualy be trusted with helping resalve a crisis. The jedi would have a place in the chain of command of society.

But no. This why of thinking was forgotten. Because the managers of the EU novels wanted 800 pound force using gorilas to swing there big ***** and show every one up. regardless of that non forcer users ability as a soldier, cop, diplomat, civic leader. Then the NJO came out. things degenerated from their. I really wish I could remember what book that was in. I know I have it. It's just barried in my room under 20 years of read books.

[hamishspence]

Because they are brittle as brimstone. You can hack your way through a pure cortosis wall with a wooden club, but a lightsaber will do negligible damage to it, yes you can break through cortosis and phrik with lightsabers... your fingernails are just more effective.

In The Hand of Thrawn duology, cortosis ore was portrayal as brittle and flaky- but in the Darth Bane book Path of Destruction, it's portrayed as incredibly hard- wears out mining gear rapidly (and is mildly toxic, causing the miners' health to deteriorate over time).



Luke's sollution was very simple. The jedi should find their place by having normal roles in society. They will fall in love and have families. This will give them the experience they need emotionaly to understand emotion and how it effects their ability to use the force. Trust your emotions, do not be afraid of them. Having a family (not limited to husband/wife/kids) will give them a place. By shunning family, hiding from emotion they lose the understanding of the basic motivations of why peaple do what they do.

Get a job. This was a second part of lukes thinking. Jedi should get invalved with a real profesion. 800 pound force using taking the law into my own hands action hero is not a real job. It doesnt even build any thing but misstrust and fear. Jedi should have jobs, be real diplomats, engineers, soldiersj, teachers, doctors, police and what ever els a jedi would love to do. This puts them into society. It would give jedi an understanding of how things work. By having a real job that serves the public they are showing the public that they are 'human' too. They care about society. They are interacted with on a daily bases. Then by having a real profesional backgound they can actualy be trusted with helping resalve a crisis. The jedi would have a place in the chain of command of society.

This wasn't so much Luke's idea, as Mon Mothma's- in the Corellia trilogy (Ambush at Corellia, Assault at Selonia, Showdown at Centerpoint), she tells him that this is what the Jedi should be doing- they should not be cloistering themselves. He himself is not entirely certain what role the Jedi should play at this point.

If anything, it's Lucas, more than the EU, that tended to portray pre-Clone Wars Jedi as nothing like this. Jedi with family relationships were the norm in EU novels (the Callista trilogy, the Nomi Sunrider comics, etc) till the movies came out and Callista's group had to be retconned as a splinter sect of Jedi.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Plenty of people have already shown how the Clone Wars Cartoon only has minor conflicts with other EU stuff, mainly the look appearances and climates of certain planets.

In some ways, Karen Travis' material has more problems with older stuff about the Mandalorians than newer stuff has with her novels.

TCW series also backs up some things that Travis tried to start, such as Mandalorians not being an almost extinct culture by the time of the Clone Wars.

TCW had Mandalorians being a peaceful society with a pacifist leader, but also a highly military past and a fringe faction that wanted to return to the good old ways. Travis' books show a section of Mandalorian culture that are militaristic and have strong honour codes. These in themselves do not need to conflict. The main problem is that in the cartoon Mandalore was a nuclear wasteland and in the novels it had farms and greenery.

Nothing in Star Wars has ever been declared non-canon apart from the Marvel comics, and they've partly been written back in, and infinities works that were clearly stated as never having been canon. There are just a lot of contradictions, some of which have explanations.

Being a huge fan of TCW series and having read all of KTs RC/IC book series, I'll have to disagree. I can't honestly see how the two could be reconciled, especially since Manda'Yaim is now a peaceful planet where a majority of the citizens live, and those with warrior tendencies were shipped off to the moon Concordia, and as portrayed, they were a small vicious cult.
There was no farming.
The Mandalorian warrior was apparantly all but forgotten to everyone except Obi Wan, who vividly recalled Jango as the antagonist he was.

And in the third season premier, they showed the Clones being trained by a random assortment of Bounty Hunters, not mentioning once the Mandalorians KT mentioned having a majority of the run there, with some non-mando others, handpicked by Fett.

I mean, could she have done it? Yeah, I guess she could have. But her practically free-reign Mandos would have been highly restrained in their actions.

And as I said, it was never declared non-canon, just sort of implied as TCW was said to be canon, and it in ways clashes with the Mandalorian culture in the Clone Wars era that KT portrayed.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Being a huge fan of TCW series and having read all of KTs RC/IC book series, I'll have to disagree. I can't honestly see how the two could be reconciled, especially since Manda'Yaim is now a peaceful planet where a majority of the citizens live, and those with warrior tendencies were shipped off to the moon Concordia, and as portrayed, they were a small vicious cult.
There was no farming.

A lot of people seem to be assuming that Concordia is the Mandalore talked about in Traviss' books.

The Mandalorians have more than one planet to live on. The other decent explanation is that since Mandalore was named after Mandalore the First, other planets could have been named after him as well, just like there are multiple cities named "Alexandria". But none of the writers have tried to use that explanation yet.

The Mandalorians have a ton of planets anyway.


The Mandalorian warrior was apparantly all but forgotten to everyone except Obi Wan, who vividly recalled Jango as the antagonist he was.

Which is pretty much how things were before Traviss' books. The Mandalorians were originally a piece of backstory for Fett's armour, then a single military unit that Fett used to be part of, then a maraudering warrior culture of non-humans that existed 4000 years before the movies.

KotOR 2's Mandalorians aren't much like Karen Traviss' either and they were published about at the same time more or less.

The Knights of the Old Republic comic series incorporates traits of Traviss' mandalorians and has no conflicts with The Clone Wars.


And in the third season premier, they showed the Clones being trained by a random assortment of Bounty Hunters, not mentioning once the Mandalorians KT mentioned having a majority of the run there, with some non-mando others, handpicked by Fett.

According to my dodgy source of wookieepedia, the trainers were only 75% Mandalorian. Those were also the initially hired trainers, and new trainers could have been brought in when clone production was stepped up.

Mandalorians don't have to be human or wear any particular armour style, so there could have been the odd Mando in there.

The fact that bounty hunters and mercenaries were training clones is actually a point of similarity with Traviss' works. Attack of the Clones implies that they were purely trained on simulators.


And as I said, it was never declared non-canon, just sort of implied as TCW was said to be canon, and it in ways clashes with the Mandalorian culture in the Clone Wars era that KT portrayed.

Which in itself clashes with the Mandalorian culture portrayed in other writer's works, which are still canon. TCW gives nods to Jango Fett: Open Seasons, which Traviss also acknowledges but downplays.

[TheThan]

But no. This why of thinking was forgotten. Because the managers of the EU novels wanted 800 pound force using gorilas to swing there big ***** and show every one up. regardless of that non forcer users ability as a soldier, cop, diplomat, civic leader. Then the NJO came out. things degenerated from their. I really wish I could remember what book that was in. I know I have it. It's just barried in my room under 20 years of read books.

Exactly, I'm interested in reading about characters, not walking Deux EX Machinma. which is why a lot of the new stuff doesn't really interest me.

[Mando Knight]

Being a huge fan of TCW series and having read all of KTs RC/IC book series, I'll have to disagree. I can't honestly see how the two could be reconciled, especially since Manda'Yaim is now a peaceful planet where a majority of the citizens live, and those with warrior tendencies were shipped off to the moon Concordia, and as portrayed, they were a small vicious cult.
There was no farming.

I thought the portrayal of Mandalore and Concordia was a touch odd, myself (hey, the mando'ade are more than just Death Watch scum!), but if you look at the long shot of Sundari (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sundari_%28city%29) (the city from the episode), it's a domed city in a wasteland-like area, nowhere near megalopolis size (i.e. the whole southern coast of Japan, or the US's whole eastern seaboard metropolitan strip), possibly as large as LA or NYC at most... more like a Mandalorian version of Las Vegas, except you replace that city's infamous reputation with pacifists (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/New_Mandalorians).

It seems a little like the US... though showing why would probably delve a bit too close to politics for the mods' liking.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Closet_Skeleton: You seem to be under the idea that I'm advocating KT as right, whereas I'm simply saying I can't see where her novels could have gone after the canon shift.
I'm not denouncing anything, just stating she worked herself into a dead end.

And then threw a frackin fit.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Closet_Skeleton: You seem to be under the idea that I'm advocating KT as right, whereas I'm simply saying I can't see where her novels could have gone after the canon shift.
I'm not denouncing anything, just stating she worked herself into a dead end.

And then threw a frackin fit.

I think the main problem was actually that it was during a canon shift. Its a lot easier to write a sequel to a story after that story is finished.

[cdstephens]

Anyone watching the Clone Wars? Any good?

[EvilSun]

TCW series also backs up some things that Travis tried to start, such as Mandalorians not being an almost extinct culture by the time of the Clone Wars.

TCW had Mandalorians being a peaceful society with a pacifist leader, but also a highly military past and a fringe faction that wanted to return to the good old ways. Travis' books show a section of Mandalorian culture that are militaristic and have strong honour codes. These in themselves do not need to conflict. The main problem is that in the cartoon Mandalore was a nuclear wasteland and in the novels it had farms and greenery.
All the Graphic novels and books I know describe the Mandalorians to be warlike people - the very idea of making the Mandalorians a peaceful society in TCW was one of the single worst decisions ever made in SW I think. Up to TCW not a SINGLE piece of fluff even suggested Mandalorians were peaceful people - I mean, when i saw the TCW episodes with the Mandalorians I was like "WTF!!?!?" - making the Mandalorians pacifists with just a few rogue elements being warlike is like making Wookies cute teddybears who are afraid of a brawl.

On top of that, in my fiew, if the Mandalorians were your typical hillybilly society, they would have been extinct long ago considering the wars they were in. A nomadic culture not based on a single race may survive after those kind of wars - a society portraied in TCW would have been annihilated long ago considering its warmongering.


The Mandalorians have a ton of planets anyway.
Which ones? As far as I know the Mandalorians do not have many planets under direct control.


KotOR 2's Mandalorians aren't much like Karen Traviss' either and they were published about at the same time more or less.
They were a LOT closer to Traviss Mandalorians than to the TCW - Mandalorians. You did not get much Background on Mandalorians in either of the KoToR games, however, you had clans and a warlike society even back then. Also it could be argued that the KotoR Mandalorians still had not felt the impact of some major changes in the Mandalorian culture (like Supercommandos and Death Watch), so yes, they would be different.



The fact that bounty hunters and mercenaries were training clones is actually a point of similarity with Traviss' works. Attack of the Clones implies that they were purely trained on simulators.
It shows a bunch of Kids in front of simulators, nothing more, nothing less. That does not imply anything.

[Closet_Skeleton]

All the Graphic novels and books I know describe the Mandalorians to be warlike people - the very idea of making the Mandalorians a peaceful society in TCW was one of the single worst decisions ever made in SW I think. Up to TCW not a SINGLE piece of fluff even suggested Mandalorians were peaceful people - I mean, when i saw the TCW episodes with the Mandalorians I was like "WTF!!?!?" - making the Mandalorians pacifists with just a few rogue elements being warlike is like making Wookies cute teddybears who are afraid of a brawl.

The Mandalorians were a culture of mercenaries in the distant past. Most sources had the Mandalorians being almost wiped out by the point of the movies until Traviss' books made things otherwise.

Look at Sweden and Switzerland. Both were once warlike nations of mercenaries. Now they're not. Funny that.

[EvilSun]

The Mandalorians were a culture of mercenaries in the distant past.
From which source do you have that? Because the fluff I know paints a bit more complex and different picture.


Look at Sweden and Switzerland. Both were once warlike nations of mercenaries. Now they're not. Funny that.
Not wanting to go off-topic, but this sounds like you are looking at the fact that both countries were known for mercenary units and turn that fact into "warlike nations", which is just plain and simply wrong. But its interesting to see what kind of picture ppl have - where are you from?

[Mando Knight]

Anyone watching the Clone Wars? Any good?

I believe it is. I mean, the Hutt Mafia Council episodes were a pretty brilliant bit of characterization for the gangster slugs, plus it had Quinlan Vos.

[AstralFire]

To go back to post 1, my favorite character in both the movies and the EU is Luke Skywalker. Luke is what it means to be a Jedi - to be involved with the world that spawned you and do your best to save it, but without getting too attached to it.

If anything, this only gets highlighted more as you go deeper into the EU. The acknowledgement that Luke is too powerful to be simply challenged in a lightsaber duel all the time has been good for the character.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Anyone watching the Clone Wars? Any good?

Aside from the Mandalorian episodes, I gotta say I love the Clone Wars series. Adds a lot of depth to characters which previously had none or shallow definition (Oh, Anakin, I'm looking at you)

[Dienekes]

Anyone watching the Clone Wars? Any good?

From what I've seen I've liked. Though it should be of note, that I don't give a rat's behind about how awesome and warlike Mandalorians are so that retcon actually interested me and added some actual layers to the overdone warrior race guys. You're mileage definitely may vary of course.

I also have not seen a single episode involving one Jar-Jar Binks, so that may color my opinion of the show as better than it actually is.

Also, Anakin gets dialogue that isn't gut wrenchingly "romantic" or whiny, which is definitely a plus.

[Mando Knight]

I also have not seen a single episode involving one Jar-Jar Binks, so that may color my opinion of the show as better than it actually is.

Jar Jar isn't a genius (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0122.html), but his bumbling manages to help save the day while being actually amusing.

[Hawriel]

It always suprises me that the origional star wars movies are now called ep 4, 5 and 6. Never have they been called this befor the drivel that was the the prequals. I have always heard them referred to as Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi when ever the titles where short handed.

When I here a "hard core" star wars fan say ep 5 I think to myself 'uh hu sure your a big fan'.

Is this a generational thing? Even though I'm a real fan who grew up with star wars, I never considered my self a hard core snob. Im a pritty layed back fan. Could this be a small portion of snob coming out?

Back to the OP's question

Wedge Antillies, Corran Horn, Gavin Darklighter, and I like the origional core characters, including Lando, equaly.

I also liked the characters from the first two Tails of the Jedi story arcs from Dark Horse comics. And Joli Bindo

Edit.
@Hamishspence
Sorry this is very late. I lost track of this thread. Thank you for correcting me about Monmothma. I started to remember that when I first read your post. Then ran off to work.

[Mando Knight]

It always suprises me that the origional star wars movies are now called ep 4, 5 and 6. Never have they been called this befor the drivel that was the the prequals. I have always heard them referred to as Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi when ever the titles where short handed.

ANH was called Episode IV: A New Hope starting with its 1981 crawl. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases) Empire and RotJ were always titled as Episodes V and VI.

[EvilSun]

From what I've seen I've liked. Though it should be of note, that I don't give a rat's behind about how awesome and warlike Mandalorians are so that retcon actually interested me and added some actual layers to the overdone warrior race guys.

Personally I find the Mandalorians quite refreshing down to earth in the SW universe. I mean, lets be honest, if you do not like to hear how "awesome" certain groups are you are at the wrong place in SW anyway - it is centering around how awesome force-users are... after that many years reading SW and seeing SW, the idea of some "regular" guys being able to kick them for good really has the certain "something".

[hamishspence]

On Mace Windu's "He controls the courts- he's too dangerous to be left alive"- is it just me, or does Mace come out with it so late, that it seems more like an excuse, than a real justification?

Mace and 3 Jedi come to Palpatine's office with a "We've come to arrest you"- pull out and ignite their lightsabers- Palpatine responds by killing three of them with his lightsaber, and duelling Mace Windu for several minutes

Mace disarms Palpatine- and says "You are under arrest"- Palpatine responds with Sith Lightning.

Mace deflects the lightning back at Palpatine, and eventually he stops firing and says "I give up, I'm too weak"

Mace starts trying to kill Palpatine- and when Anakin objects, says "He controls the courts- he's too dangerous to be left alive".

Seems a bit late to be coming out with that.

[AstralFire]

It always suprises me that the origional star wars movies are now called ep 4, 5 and 6. Never have they been called this befor the drivel that was the the prequals. I have always heard them referred to as Star Wars, Empire, and Jedi when ever the titles where short handed.

When I here a "hard core" star wars fan say ep 5 I think to myself 'uh hu sure your a big fan'.

Is this a generational thing? Even though I'm a real fan who grew up with star wars, I never considered my self a hard core snob. Im a pritty layed back fan. Could this be a small portion of snob coming out?

Yes, you're being a snob. I actually like the prequels and the original trilogy, and I just spent $200 ordering a commission of my post-OT era Jedi Knight PC. I'm a pretty hardcore fan.

[Dienekes]

Jar Jar isn't a genius (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0122.html), but his bumbling manages to help save the day while being actually amusing.

Oh Darths and Droids, you can make any character cool. Really though, Jar Jar's bumblings have never amused me. And I like good slap stick. Maybe he got better in the show but I'm gonna wait until I see him.

My friend whose watched the series has so far only said "Well, he doesn't ruin the show" which is not the greatest stamp of approval.


Personally I find the Mandalorians quite refreshing down to earth in the SW universe. I mean, lets be honest, if you do not like to hear how "awesome" certain groups are you are at the wrong place in SW anyway - it is centering around how awesome force-users are... after that many years reading SW and seeing SW, the idea of some "regular" guys being able to kick them for good really has the certain "something".

That's just it. They're not regular or normal anymore. They've reached the point where they are just as super awesome as the Jedi. Now I love me some regular folk showing up and kicking force user arse. And I'm fine with a culture being shown as awesome, but I enjoy badass normals when they get to take down the special folks a few pegs. When I read about the Mandalorians they are almost always shown as just as if not more special and super fantastic than the Jedi. Too me that misses the point of badass normals completely.

Though also, I rather like adding layers to things. A culture based solely on war? That's a bit bland to me. Make a counter movement based on peace and you've developed a rounded and more dynamic culture. I could get into a good story about that. Far more than I could of warrior people continuously and always acting as warrior people.

[EvilSun]

Though also, I rather like adding layers to things. A culture based solely on war? That's a bit bland to me. Make a counter movement based on peace and you've developed a rounded and more dynamic culture. I could get into a good story about that. Far more than I could of warrior people continuously and always acting as warrior people.

Clan based society with warlike layout? Nah, basically they are just Space Wikings with jetbacks. I like wikings.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Yes, you're being a snob. I actually like the prequels and the original trilogy, and I just spent $200 ordering a commission of my post-OT era Jedi Knight PC. I'm a pretty hardcore fan.
OOoo, who'd you order the commission from?
I have a bunch of SW art (Not gonna lie, its mostly CW era Clones >>) and one or two commisions from Brent Woodside (http://www.nihm-art.com/).
Unfortunately, my Mad Hatter commission was better than my Mando, which was... subar to his usual work :smallsigh:

He's, for some reason, always at the Ren Faire down here, and I spend hours of each year chatting with him. You guys can blame HIM for my Mandolove.

[AstralFire]

OOoo, who'd you order the commission from?
I have a bunch of SW art (Not gonna lie, its mostly CW era Clones >>) and one or two commisions from Brent Woodside (http://www.nihm-art.com/).
Unfortunately, my Mad Hatter commission was better than my Mando, which was... subar to his usual work :smallsigh:

He's, for some reason, always at the Ren Faire down here, and I spend hours of each year chatting with him. You guys can blame HIM for my Mandolove.

http://jortega.deviantart.com/

It's still in progress. I'll show you when it's done, it's a REALLY cool scene for this character (http://www.rphaven.com/profile.php?user=Aurabelle%20Tinkleena).

[Dienekes]

Clan based society with warlike layout? Nah, basically they are just Space Wikings with jetbacks. I like wikings.

The Norse were way more complicated than that, and the addition of a peaceful element makes the Mandalorians actually closer to space Vikings than they were before.

[EvilSun]

The Norse were way more complicated than that, and the addition of a peaceful element makes the Mandalorians actually closer to space Vikings than they were before.
yeah, i know that, I was just speculating on most people here being form the US and only knowing Vikings from movies. However, they were famous for their bearings in war, not for their everydaylive. Movies make things simple...

[pendell]

On Mace Windu's "He controls the courts- he's too dangerous to be left alive"- is it just me, or does Mace come out with it so late, that it seems more like an excuse, than a real justification?

Mace and 3 Jedi come to Palpatine's office with a "We've come to arrest you"- pull out and ignite their lightsabers- Palpatine responds by killing three of them with his lightsaber, and duelling Mace Windu for several minutes

Mace disarms Palpatine- and says "You are under arrest"- Palpatine responds with Sith Lightning.

Mace deflects the lightning back at Palpatine, and eventually he stops firing and says "I give up, I'm too weak"

Mace starts trying to kill Palpatine- and when Anakin objects, says "He controls the courts- he's too dangerous to be left alive".

Seems a bit late to be coming out with that.

I note that Mace Windu was still trying to arrest Palpatine after he was disarmed but before he started blasting away with Force Lightning. Only after he got the billion-dollar electric bill did he switch over from arrest to assassination.

It makes sense to me. The idea behind taking a prisoner is that you have subdued your enemy and he can no longer offer effective resistance. Palpatine just demonstrated that he is never unarmed and will always pose a lethal threat, even if he's naked.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reverent-One]

Though also, I rather like adding layers to things. A culture based solely on war? That's a bit bland to me. Make a counter movement based on peace and you've developed a rounded and more dynamic culture. I could get into a good story about that. Far more than I could of warrior people continuously and always acting as warrior people.

They already had a bit more to them than just being warriors, even in the Traviss books. What happened in the Clone Wars series isn't some counter-movement based on peace, which could have been interesting, but making EVERY mandolarian either peaceful or a member of the Death Watch (aka evil bad guys). No real layers there at all.

[pendell]

One thing that I never understood, is that Jedi aren't allowed to love, and love destroyed Anakin. But some of the best and most important Jedi definitely fell in love, or at least had the option to with no galaxy ending consequences. For example, KoTOR I, KoTOR II, and the Force Unleashed.

The idea of avoiding attachment reminded me of the four noble truths (http://buddhism.about.com/od/thefournobletruths/a/fournobletruths.htm). It seems obvious to me that the Jedi follow a similar ethical outlook on life: Suffering is caused by desire, which is another way of saying 'attachment'. Therefore, the way to avoid suffering is to suppress desire through a rigid code of conduct.

The Jedi say that hate leads to anger, anger leads to suffering, etc. But from their perspective, it seems as if ANY emotion, ANY attachment, ANY human feeling, leads to suffering, to the Dark Side, in the long run.

I think Lucas did a good job both of building this up as the ethical foundation of the Jedi, and in deconstructing the philosophy.

Because this philosophy failed the Jedi. A big part of the reason Anakin Skywalker fell to the Dark Side was because the Jedi Order could not help him due to his 'attachment'. Their advice to him was to abandon his loved ones and let them go to the force. "Loved Ones" lead to the dark side after all.

Yoda had no help to give Anakin, so Anakin went to the one person who COULD help him, and he wasn't a Jedi.

The Jedi weren't just wrong in the prequels; they were wrong in the original trilogy as well. Yoda warned Luke to suppress his feelings, his attachment, to his father. Luke ignored him.

And because Luke allowed himself to become attached to his father, his father attached to him. And his father saved the galaxy.

Denial of love destroyed the galaxy and brought the Empire into existence. Acceptance of love destroyed the Empire and paved the way for the New Republic. Denial of attachment brought death, Acceptance of attachment brought rebirth.


The original trilogy ended at Endor, but it seems to me that, ignoring the EU, the New Jedi Order, including the force ghosts of Yoda, Obi-wan, and Anakin, have a lot of re-thinking to do with respect to attachment. Anakin was always attached, always passionate. He was as far from the detached, emotionless, Spocklike approach of Yoda as it was possible to be. And yet he was still Light Side in the end, despite being everything that Yoda et al believed the Light Side to be opposed to.

It was something that Qui-gon -- IMO, the only prequel Jedi who really *got* the Light Side -- could understand, but Yoda and his followers could not.

As I said, at the end of the trilogy, everyone Jedi has a lot of re-thinking to do with regard to their beliefs. It seems to me that, taking the beliefs of the prequel Jedi to their logical conclusion, every being in the galaxy that allowed itself to be emotional, allowed itself to be *human* , was a darksider. And if that were really true, sign me up for a black cloak and a red blade.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[AstralFire]

Pendell - that's an excellent post and I think the EU authors agree with you. In the Fate of the Jedi series, a Sith whose culture has been cut off from the modern galaxy comments snarkily to Luke about believing in his emotions; Luke comments back that, "Actually, we are taught to trust in our feelings," and that answer throws off the Sith.

[hamishspence]

It makes sense to me. The idea behind taking a prisoner is that you have subdued your enemy and he can no longer offer effective resistance. Palpatine just demonstrated that he is never unarmed and will always pose a lethal threat, even if he's naked.

But that wasn't the rationale he was using, though. It wasn't "he cannot be held prisoner" it was "he controls the courts".

One of the first things Dooku does in Episode II when Yoda comes on the scene, just after he's defeated Anakin, is blast him with Force lightning. Yet in Yoda: Dark Rendevous, Yoda spends some time trying to win Dooku back from the Dark Side.

And in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Anakin is very clear that "he has powers" was not an excuse for killing Dooku- considering he'd just taken off Dooku's hands.


Anakin was always attached, always passionate. He was as far from the detached, emotionless, Spocklike approach of Yoda as it was possible to be. And yet he was still Light Side in the end, despite being everything that Yoda et al believed the Light Side to be opposed to.

It was something that Qui-gon -- IMO, the only prequel Jedi who really *got* the Light Side -- could understand, but Yoda and his followers could not.

As I said, at the end of the trilogy, everyone Jedi has a lot of re-thinking to do with regard to their beliefs.

On "trust your feelings" Obi-Wan says this to Luke in A New Hope- maybe he got it from Qui-Gon?

At the time of Episodes II and III, there was a dissident faction of Jedi, led by Jedi Master Djin Altis (Callista, from Children of the Jedi, was a member) that rejected the "no families, no marriages" attitude of the Jedi.

Their view was that it was not attachment, but obsession, that corrupts- Anakin was so obsessed with Padme and so afraid of the possibility of her dying, that he was willing to do anything to prevent it.

[SmartAlec]

At the time of Episodes II and III, there was a dissident faction of Jedi, led by Jedi Master Djin Altis (Callista, from Children of the Jedi, was a member) that rejected the "no families, no marriages" attitude of the Jedi.

Their view was that it was not attachment, but obsession, that corrupts- Anakin was so obsessed with Padme and so afraid of the possibility of her dying, that he was willing to do anything to prevent it.

That's mostly right, but I think the Jedi Order of the prequels came about after one too many Sith orders rising out of the Jedi. Rather than let things go on as they always had, the Jedi Order decided to become centralised, standardise their teachings, start training from a very young age and err on the side of caution. Not every Jedi is going to be mature enough to seperate love from excessive attachment; so they take the view that although an environment like the prequel Order is pretty cold and sterile, at least it's not going to result in a mass Sith uprising.

Can't fault the logic, but it's perhaps the weary cynicism behind the decision that started the rot. That is the point at which, as pendell notes, the Jedi stopped trusting their feelings and turned to dogma.

[AstralFire]

To use standard philosophical terminology, it's attachment that corrupts, but not enjoyment. One can love life's trappings without needing them.

Regarding Windu, I'm inclined to agree that the 'he controls the courts' line is very sudden, but also inclined to agree that it makes sense given the amount of power Palpatine's displaying. Makes the most sense to me as Windu delivering an expedient lie rather than a more long-winded, "there's no way we can safely keep him under wraps."

[hamishspence]

"attachment to a person" might mean valuing them more or loving them more, personally, than other people.

Which is pretty much a basis for relationships. A husband who loves his wife "no more than he loves every other human being" is not exactly being a very devoted husband.

Hence, I think, the use by the Altisian Jedi of "obsession" rather than "attachment" as corrupting.

[AstralFire]

I'm... unable to pull out specific examples here, because all of the ones I know cross the lines from philosophy to religion. Suffice to say that it is often accepted that:

1) One can marry and love a spouse without forming attachment
2) This is not going to work for most people because most people suck

[hamishspence]

Really depends on what is meant by "attachment"-

but the milder sense, of, say, simply feeling more love for one person, than for strangers in general, seems pretty "normal" for human beings.

In the RotS novelization it says that even Mace Windu has an attachment.

"Mace Windu has a secret love. He loves the Republic"

Which may explain why he reacts the way he does when he realizes a Sith Lord has been in charge of it for more than a decade.

[AstralFire]

I'm just being pedantic here anyway, really.

[hamishspence]

Anakin does mention the Jedi are allowed "compassion, which I would define as unconditional love"

But this can be problematic as well.

Unconditional love- loving someone no matter how vile their deeds, doesn't really make much sense.

Especially not when combined with a "non-attachment" perspective that demands everyone must be loved equally- no-one more, no-one less.

By this perspective, Anakin would be obliged to love Padme, and Dooku, equally. Which seems a little warped.

[AstralFire]

Unconditional love tends to be extremely complex and does not necessitate affection.

[pendell]

Check me on this, but from a psychological point of view:

1) It is pretty much impossible for human beings not to attach to other human beings. In fact, a person who doesn't attach to other people any more than they do to a doll is diagnosed as .. sociopathic, isn't it? It's what happens to people who get stranded on remote islands, they wind up talking to inanimate objects because there are no humans around.

2) It is also impossible for humans to attach to all other humans equally. Someone here has an article on the 'monkeysphere', but it is physically impossible for us to really be concerned about millions of people the way we are concerned about the 5-6 people we come into contact with on a regular basis.

3) As I understand it, ethical teaching does not require us to literally care about every stranger as we do our spouses or our family; it's impossible. But what we can do is recognize that a stranger belongs to someone else's family, a family much like our own, and therefore we can respond to them as we would want to be responded to.

So we don't have to attach to every person as to our spouse -- it's not possible. But we do have to recognize that a person has dignity and worth, even if we can't see it, and therefore we should act as if the attachment is there even if it isn't. We do for complete strangers what we want complete strangers to do to us.

As far as I'm concerned, the prequel Jedi miss this by attempting to avoid attachment altogether. From a psychological perspective, that's impossible and might result in disorders, such as attaching to an abstract political body -- or perhaps a pet -- when one should really be attaching to fellow humans.

Anakin in the prequel seems to take this to the other extreme. He is SO attached to Padme that he's willing to commit every crime, sell out to the Devil, and murder unarmed younglings. Because as far as Anakin is concerned, Padme's life is of such value he's willing to kill the entire rest of the galaxy to save her life.

That has to be a distortion. Is Padme worthy of his love and attention? Yes. Does he have more of an obligation to her than a random being on the street? Absolutely. If SW marriage vows are anything like ours, he promised that. Does that mean he can plunge the entire galaxy into darkness just to save her life? No.

Somewhere down the line, we have to have a sense of proportion.

So I'm thinking both approaches are extremes which are to be avoided in terms of attachment. Human beings naturally have stronger attachment -- and greater obligations -- to those they know personally and especially to those they have made vows and promises to. But 'greater obligation' cannot translate into 'therefore has the right to abuse any and every sapient outside that narrow circle of acquaintances'.

Possibly we have certain obligations to any fellow sapient, by mere virtue of them being intelligent creatures like ourselves. Marriage bond and friendship may supersede and place greater obligations than those bonds common to all intelligent beings. But the existence of the special, super-bonds doesn't give us the right to overlook or cancel the common ones.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[AstralFire]

The precaution against attachment is typically not against having friends, but being overly knotted with them. While I agree that the ideal is to avoid extremes, I do not think the OJO ever preached against having friendships. Several Jedi are noted as having friends.

[Thialfi]

I was a huge fan of the original trilogy and found myself very dissappointed in the prequels. I never looked into the universe beyond that other than to take note that Chewbacca got killed off in one of the books.

Now I have a 7 year old son who has fallen in love with the Clone Wars cartoon. I have watched it with him and have found that I actually enjoy the series.

So I have two questions.

1. What the hell happened to all of the clones after the clone wars?

2. How married is Lucas to this expanded universe stuff? When he eventually makes that third trilogy that has been rumored and denied for decades will he pay any attention to it or will the 3rd trilogy have Ahsoka Tano playing Obi-Wan to Leia's kids while Chewbacca does the sidekick thing again with Luke's son?

[pendell]

So I have two questions.

1. What the hell happened to all of the clones after the clone wars?



That hasn't been shown in the films. In the EU, the clones were eventually replaced by other manufacturers and by conscripts, as Palpatine didn't particularly like the idea of being dependent on any one supplier. Those clones that didn't manage to escape or desert eventually were killed in action, or put down when they were no longer combat-effective.



2. How married is Lucas to this expanded universe stuff? When he eventually makes that third trilogy that has been rumored and denied for decades will he pay any attention to it or will the 3rd trilogy have Ahsoka Tano playing Obi-Wan to Leia's kids while Chewbacca does the sidekick thing again with Luke's son?

Lucas has explained that he pays no attention -- absolutely none -- to the EU. As far as he's concerned, it's a parallel universe inspired by his own, a gigantic "What-if" or Star Wars Infinities experiment.

For instance, he has stated in interviews "I killed Boba Fett [when he fell into the Sarlacc]. He is dead." This has not stopped Boba Fett from enjoying a long and illustrious career in the EU long after his death date, including becoming king of his own planet.

The sole connection that the EU has with the film version of Star Wars is that Lucas will sometimes look through the database of names and reuse one if something has already been named and he likes it. For instance, "Coruscant" as the name of the capital planet, first seen in the 1990s-era Zahn books and eventually made canon in the Prequel Trilogy.

The EU typically has free reign on events past Endor, since it is the endpoint of the films, but Lucas' changing of events in the prequels has kicked off a significant amount of retconning in the EU. Mandalorians being re-invented as pacifists being one example.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

Anakin's overattachment to friends, is another of the Jedi Council's concerns (since, at the time, they don't know about Padme)- especially in the Revenge of the Sith novelization).

"I trust him with my life," Obi-Wan said simply. "And that is precisely the problem."

The other two Jedi Masters watched him silently while he tried to summon the proper words.

"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met- loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he- he will never, I think, truly understand."

He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner- one day sooner- were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."

"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."

"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."

Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders- the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems- to save a friend.

More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.

"I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."

Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
"Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."

"Understand exactly where your concern lies, I do not." Yoda's green eyes had gone softly sympathetic. "Named must your fear be, before banish it you can. Do you fear that perform his task, he cannot?"

"Oh, no. That's not it at all. I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today..."

"But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. "That is what we have pledged ourselves to: selfless service-"

Obi-Wan turned to stare once more toward the assault ship that would carry Yoda and the clone battalions to Kashyyyk, but he could see only Anakin's face.

If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it?

"Yes," he said slowly. "That's why I don't think he will ever trust us again."
He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.

"And I'm not entirely sure he should."

[Reverent-One]

Lucas has explained that he pays no attention -- absolutely none -- to the EU. As far as he's concerned, it's a parallel universe inspired by his own, a gigantic "What-if" or Star Wars Infinities experiment.

For instance, he has stated in interviews "I killed Boba Fett [when he fell into the Sarlacc]. He is dead." This has not stopped Boba Fett from enjoying a long and illustrious career in the EU long after his death date, including becoming king of his own planet.

The sole connection that the EU has with the film version of Star Wars is that Lucas will sometimes look through the database of names and reuse one if something has already been named and he likes it. For instance, "Coruscant" as the name of the capital planet, first seen in the 1990s-era Zahn books and eventually made canon in the Prequel Trilogy.

The EU typically has free reign on events past Endor, since it is the endpoint of the films, but Lucas' changing of events in the prequels has kicked off a significant amount of retconning in the EU. Mandalorians being re-invented as pacifists being one example.

This is actually not the case. At the very least, anything happening in the EU has to be run by Lucas first, and he can (and will) nix ideas. Originally, the writers of the New Jedi order series had planned to kill off Jacen Solo instead of Anakin, but Lucas said no to that idea, so they had to switch it around. The Vong were going to be Dark side force users, but again, Lucas said no.

[AstralFire]

Essentially, Lucas cares a bit about the EU, but he doesn't care a -lot- about it, and he does view them as two universes apart.

[hamishspence]

This is actually not the case. At the very least, anything happening in the EU has to be run by Lucas first, and he can (and will) nix ideas. Originally, the writers of the New Jedi order series had planned to kill off Jacen Solo instead of Anakin, but Lucas said no to that idea, so they had to switch it around. The Vong were going to be Dark side force users, but again, Lucas said no.

One of the earliest notable nixings, was Timothy Zahn's idea of the evil Jedi Master in Heir to the Empire being an Obi-Wan clone.

That was nixed, and we now have Joruus C'baoth.

[Mando Knight]

1. What the hell happened to all of the clones after the clone wars?

That hasn't been shown in the films. In the EU, the clones were eventually replaced by other manufacturers and by conscripts, as Palpatine didn't particularly like the idea of being dependent on any one supplier. Those clones that didn't manage to escape or desert eventually were killed in action, or put down when they were no longer combat-effective.
Lucas actually agreed with this in an interview before the premiere of RotS, and provides an additional (and not necessarily contradictory) explanation: hiring mooks from whatever backwater planet was cheaper overall than continuing to clone Fett. At any rate, less than half of the Empire's stormtrooper corps is made of Fett clones by the time ANH rolls around, with a general EU concession that the troopers of the 501st are much more "Fett-pure" than the rest of the Corps, for the sole reason that Fett-cloned troops are more awesome than the rank-and-file Stormtroopers (who can't hit the dorsal surface of the Executor), and "Vader's Fist" should have the awesomest troopers available because it's under the direct command of Darth Freaking Vader.

2. How married is Lucas to this expanded universe stuff? When he eventually makes that third trilogy that has been rumored and denied for decades will he pay any attention to it or will the 3rd trilogy have Ahsoka Tano playing Obi-Wan to Leia's kids while Chewbacca does the sidekick thing again with Luke's son?
He isn't, but I doubt that Ahsoka will be appearing in the "third trilogy" that Lucas has been generally denying in developing. Fact is, if Ahsoka was going to survive the Clone Wars, she'd have still been a Padawan during RotS, no doubts about it. If she doesn't get assigned a new Master, she has to die by the time the series is up. Or at the very least, the Clones or Vader kill her as part of Order 66 and the aftermath. No way Vader is going to let her live.

[Thialfi]

Thanks for the answers. I was just kind of throwing the Ahsoka and Chewbacca things out there as a way that Lucas could thumb his nose at the EU. I really don't expect those characters to actually be in a third trilogy.

It is kind of annoying to emotionally invest in characters that you know will be dead in a year or so. It would be nice to have one of the Clone Wars characters make it out alive, especially Ahsoka. She is one of the few kid friendly characters that I don't find annoying.

How many years are supposed to pass between episodes II and III? I know Lucas has been on record as saying he would like Clone Wars to get to at least 100 episodes.

[mangosta71]

I think it's 4 or 5 years between AotC and RotS.

[hamishspence]

As I recall, from the timelines given in the backs of EU books- it's roughly 3 years between Episode II and Episode III.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Anakin does mention the Jedi are allowed "compassion, which I would define as unconditional love"

But this can be problematic as well.

Unconditional love- loving someone no matter how vile their deeds, doesn't really make much sense.

Especially not when combined with a "non-attachment" perspective that demands everyone must be loved equally- no-one more, no-one less.

By this perspective, Anakin would be obliged to love Padme, and Dooku, equally. Which seems a little warped.

That's basically how the teachings of several major religions work though.



1. What the hell happened to all of the clones after the clone wars?

Immediately? They just got reorganised as Storm Troopers. There was a lot of police work and mop up to do and the Empire maintained a far larger force than the Republic did (which only had "Judicial Forces" rather than an army, which is kind of like how Japan doesn't have an army). The Empire never really scaled down its militerisation after the Clone Wars and in some ways even increased it.

Some got turned into superhuman cyborgs so they could fight despite suffering from accelerated aging, but that project didn't last long and when they restarted it during the rebellion they decided to use droids instead.

Some of them apparently rebelled and joined up with some Mandalorians, but I haven't read those books.

Some Kaminioans rebelled 11 years before the battle of Yavin using an army of secretly produced Fett clones, leading to the Empire diversifying the genetic stock of its clone troopers.

Several rich imperial citizens bought the right for clone soldiers to be made from their genetic material for vanity reasons, weakening the gene supplies a bit.

The use of inferior but faster cloning techniques, such as Spaati Cylinders, also led to reduced quality among Storm Troopers.

At least a few of the original Clone Troopers survived into the military of one of the warlords that divided the Empire up between themselves when Palpatine died. Said warlord then killed them all to piss Luke Skywalker off.

While the EU portrays the Empire as sexist, George Lucas has suggested that women are allowed into the Storm Troopers.


As I recall, from the timelines given in the backs of EU books- it's roughly 3 years between Episode II and Episode III.

All clone wars timelines are pretty much dead now, but its about 3 years.

[Thane of Fife]

While the EU portrays the Empire as sexist, George Lucas has suggested that women are allowed into the Storm Troopers.

I assume that they have to meet the same height requirements as males, though. :smalltongue:

Incidentally, I was wondering if anyone had watched this Star Wars video (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1931187). I'm not a huge fan of the song they're parodying, but this video fascinates me (it might have something to do with the dancing stormtroopers).

[cdstephens]

The idea of avoiding attachment reminded me of the four noble truths (http://buddhism.about.com/od/thefournobletruths/a/fournobletruths.htm). It seems obvious to me that the Jedi follow a similar ethical outlook on life: Suffering is caused by desire, which is another way of saying 'attachment'. Therefore, the way to avoid suffering is to suppress desire through a rigid code of conduct.

The Jedi say that hate leads to anger, anger leads to suffering, etc. But from their perspective, it seems as if ANY emotion, ANY attachment, ANY human feeling, leads to suffering, to the Dark Side, in the long run.

I think Lucas did a good job both of building this up as the ethical foundation of the Jedi, and in deconstructing the philosophy.

Because this philosophy failed the Jedi. A big part of the reason Anakin Skywalker fell to the Dark Side was because the Jedi Order could not help him due to his 'attachment'. Their advice to him was to abandon his loved ones and let them go to the force. "Loved Ones" lead to the dark side after all.

Yoda had no help to give Anakin, so Anakin went to the one person who COULD help him, and he wasn't a Jedi.

The Jedi weren't just wrong in the prequels; they were wrong in the original trilogy as well. Yoda warned Luke to suppress his feelings, his attachment, to his father. Luke ignored him.

And because Luke allowed himself to become attached to his father, his father attached to him. And his father saved the galaxy.

Denial of love destroyed the galaxy and brought the Empire into existence. Acceptance of love destroyed the Empire and paved the way for the New Republic. Denial of attachment brought death, Acceptance of attachment brought rebirth.


The original trilogy ended at Endor, but it seems to me that, ignoring the EU, the New Jedi Order, including the force ghosts of Yoda, Obi-wan, and Anakin, have a lot of re-thinking to do with respect to attachment. Anakin was always attached, always passionate. He was as far from the detached, emotionless, Spocklike approach of Yoda as it was possible to be. And yet he was still Light Side in the end, despite being everything that Yoda et al believed the Light Side to be opposed to.

It was something that Qui-gon -- IMO, the only prequel Jedi who really *got* the Light Side -- could understand, but Yoda and his followers could not.

As I said, at the end of the trilogy, everyone Jedi has a lot of re-thinking to do with regard to their beliefs. It seems to me that, taking the beliefs of the prequel Jedi to their logical conclusion, every being in the galaxy that allowed itself to be emotional, allowed itself to be *human* , was a darksider. And if that were really true, sign me up for a black cloak and a red blade.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hence why canon wise, the NJO is "more right" than the old one. Lack of arrogance tends to prevent purging as well (until Darth Krayt, but w/e).

As for the timeline, it's interesting how SHORT the Clone Wars are compared to all the other wars in the Star Wars universe, that range from decades to centuries.

[Darklord Bright]

You know, I'm not actually familiar with EU (or really anything I haven't been strictly told about outside the movies and the original cartoon clone wars series, as much as I love listening to other people talk about the universe canon), but I know they bring Boba back in the EU.

Is it true that he pretty much becomes Star Wars Batman?

[AstralFire]

You know, I'm not actually familiar with EU (or really anything I haven't been strictly told about outside the movies and the original cartoon clone wars series, as much as I love listening to other people talk about the universe canon), but I know they bring Boba back in the EU.

Is it true that he pretty much becomes Star Wars Batman?

Right down to other people temporarily becoming stupid just so he can punk them. Yes.

[Jade_Tarem]

You know, I'm not actually familiar with EU (or really anything I haven't been strictly told about outside the movies and the original cartoon clone wars series, as much as I love listening to other people talk about the universe canon), but I know they bring Boba back in the EU.

Is it true that he pretty much becomes Star Wars Batman?

Yes. Unless Karin Traviss is writing him. Then he's the unstoppable leader of a nation of Mary Sues.

What AstralFire says above me is correct too. Everyone just seems to get dumber around Boba Fett. Sometimes it's justified (Dengar, in the Bounty Hunter Wars books, had just received the Atanii implant that mellowed him out a lot and gave him his humanity back, but it ended up nerfing him as a side effect). Others, like Bossk, Jaina Solo, the Jedi Order, Darth Caedus, Tahiri, etc, seem to go out of their way to be silly and stupid around him. Han seems to be the only one that can keep up, and even he's not completely immune.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Han seems to be the only one that can keep up, and even he's not completely immune.

Han has the power to reverse Boba Fett's "make people stupid field", hence RotJ.

The current Boba Fett comic mini-series has someone

Try to coup de grace Boba with a blaster shot to the thickest part of Boba's armour, after Boba specifically told him not to. Reverse psychology should only go so far.

[Reverent-One]

Yes. Unless Karin Traviss is writing him. Then he's the unstoppable leader of a nation of Mary Sues.


Oh no, no, no, the proper term is Mandolorian, not Mary Sue. I do understand where the confusion can come from though, the two names do begin the same. :smallwink:

[Thrawn183]

As far as the emotion vs obsession thing, let me put it this way. If a jedi's family member was murdered would they leave it to the proper authorities (perhaps lending assistance in an acceptable manner) or do they go nuts like Anakin and the Sand People?

I think that too much of the characterization of jedi in the EU has focused around their magical abilities. Many of the most popular jedi are people like Corran Horn and Mara Jade. Characters that are more than just a spread sheet of, can use [X] power and is really strong.

[AstralFire]

I mostly find 'characterization by power' to be a problem in Old Republic, when it is a problem at all; honestly, it's more an issue of fan perception than it is the writing, usually.

[cdstephens]

Does anyone else love KOTOR?

[snoopy13a]

Yes. Unless Karin Traviss is writing him. Then he's the unstoppable leader of a nation of Mary Sues.

What AstralFire says above me is correct too. Everyone just seems to get dumber around Boba Fett. Sometimes it's justified (Dengar, in the Bounty Hunter Wars books, had just received the Atanii implant that mellowed him out a lot and gave him his humanity back, but it ended up nerfing him as a side effect). Others, like Bossk, Jaina Solo, the Jedi Order, Darth Caedus, Tahiri, etc, seem to go out of their way to be silly and stupid around him. Han seems to be the only one that can keep up, and even he's not completely immune.

The first time Luke met Boba Fett, Luke thought they were BFF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rtPmPDrWjY&feature=related

[dgnslyr]

Does anyone else love KOTOR?

Love it. Absolutely love it. It was my first exposure to a d20 system, too.

[Lord Blace]

Does anyone else love KOTOR?

Tremendously. Jolee Bindo is one of my favorite characters, actually.
As is your avi. Statement: HK47 is superior to any and all meatbags.







:smalltongue:

[AstralFire]

Does anyone else love KOTOR?

Not really. KotOR 1 was 'ok' writing, but the gameplay didn't really excite me. In general, I didn't get really big into Star Wars until I started looking at roleplaying in the Galaxy Far, Far Away and seeing how many possibilities it had. And I didn't really get into Bioware until Mass Effect and Dragon Age; previously, I was neutral-at-best to their games. (Yes, harsh critic here.)

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww11/Eoclastia/final.jpg

Commission of my Jedi is done! (Well, one of them. This is the cheaper one I ordered.)

[Mando Knight]

Parents, you need to talk to your children (http://kotaku.com/5693688/how-to-have-a-frank-discussion-with-your-kids-about-star-wars) about Star Wars.

[TruorTupnm]

*sniff* So beautiful. It's probably too late, though. So many young people who saw the newer movies first are already having kids. Very sad.

[Mando Knight]

Oh no, no, no, the proper term is Mandolorian, not Mary Sue.
The term is Mandalorian, though. But don't worry, it's a common mistake.

Also: another reason I like Star Wars: The Clone Wars: the series has been developing more and more... the art style and characterization seem to have matured, the most recent episode shows that pretty well. Not all devout Seps (even in their congress) are Dooku's money-grubbing pawns (leading to a comment in the CIS parliament that they're not ruled by the corporations. Guess what makes up your armies, idiot?) but that some of the Republic Senators are (the plants from the Trade Fed, Banking Clans, Techno Union, etc.), and... is it just me, or does Ahsoka look older?

...How I first actually noticed that was as part of a 15-30 second or so clip in the middle of the episode.

[chiasaur11]

The first time Luke met Boba Fett, Luke thought they were BFF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rtPmPDrWjY&feature=related

Friends?

With a guy with a jetpack?

More like BEST FRIENDS.

[snoopy13a]

Friends?

With a guy with a jetpack?

More like BEST FRIENDS.

BFF= Best Friends Forever

"Boba, you're a hero and a faithful friend"

Great line :smallsmile:

[cdstephens]

Not really. KotOR 1 was 'ok' writing, but the gameplay didn't really excite me. In general, I didn't get really big into Star Wars until I started looking at roleplaying in the Galaxy Far, Far Away and seeing how many possibilities it had. And I didn't really get into Bioware until Mass Effect and Dragon Age; previously, I was neutral-at-best to their games. (Yes, harsh critic here.)

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww11/Eoclastia/final.jpg

Commission of my Jedi is done! (Well, one of them. This is the cheaper one I ordered.)

I agree KOTOR's gameplay was mediocre, but the story I thought was incredible.

That's an amazing Jedi btw! I'm so jealous...

[RabbitHoleLost]

is it just me, or does Ahsoka look older?

...How I first actually noticed that was as part of a 15-30 second or so clip in the middle of the episode.

No, she's getting older.
She's even going to get a new outfit (http://www.wired.com/underwire/2010/11/clone-wars-ahsoka-new-look/).

Also, I really, really suddenly want a signature or avatar or something with Boba and "Haters Gonna Hate"
Just sayin'

[Ashen Lilies]

A backless dress and diamond cut-outs on her pants is meant to be more modest than what she was wearing before? O_o

[RabbitHoleLost]

A backless dress and diamond cut-outs on her pants is meant to be more modest than what she was wearing before? O_o

....Have you seen what she WAS wearing?

[AstralFire]

Also, I really, really suddenly want a signature or avatar or something with Boba and "Haters Gonna Hate"

And Fetts gonna fall.

Into a sarlacc's mouth.

Twice.

Once by a blind man with a stick.

[RabbitHoleLost]

And Fetts gonna fall.

Into a sarlacc's mouth.

Twice.

Once by a blind man with a stick.

And escape both times.

I ain't gonna argue. My fantasy men are my fantasy men, whether other fans like 'im or not :smalltongue:
The less fans, the less I'm being accused of bandwagoning.
Or I could say I'm bringing the Fettish back. Whatevs.

[Ashen Lilies]

Well yes, the old outfit technically bared more skin, but it simply revealed. The new one flaunts. At least in that picture. The pose really doesn't help. Maybe it's just me though.

Also,
*takes 1d6 pun damage*

[AstralFire]

And escape both times.

I ain't gonna argue. My fantasy men are my fantasy men, whether other fans like 'im or not :smalltongue:
The less fans, the less I'm being accused of bandwagoning.
Or I could say I'm bringing the Fettish back. Whatevs.

You get serious points for Fettish. -thumbs up-

Did ya like the commission?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Well yes, the old outfit technically bared more skin, but it simply revealed. The new one flaunts. At least in that picture. The pose really doesn't help.

Also,
*takes 1d6 pun damage*
Really?
I think it looks more sophisticated, like she learned how to show off her feminism without being half naked. Maybe this is why it seems to be more provocative to you? Because it is more mature and attractive and becoming?
I'm a huge Ahsoka fan, though, so I tend to read a lot into her that may or may not actually be there :smallredface:


You get serious points for Fettish. -thumbs up-

Did ya like the commission?
Gonna be honest, I didn't even realize it was the commission when I first skimmed over the thread.
I do like it, though. Nice quality :: nodnod::

That poor Trooper. Didn't even have a chance.

[Ashen Lilies]

Really?
I think it looks more sophisticated, like she learned how to show off her feminism without being half naked. Maybe this is why it seems to be more provocative to you? Because it is more mature and attractive and becoming?
I'm a huge Ahsoka fan, though, so I tend to read a lot into her that may or may not actually be there :smallredface:


Probably. I never said it was bad, or that it offended my poor precious sensibilities, just that I was puzzled that someone would consider it less provocative than the tube top o' doom. Because showing off in a more mature and developed way is still showing off, which is still supposedly against the Jedi [Dress] Code.
Though I guess if Anakin can get away with the black leather...
I appear to be rambling somewhat.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And Fetts gonna fall.

Into a sarlacc's mouth.

Twice.

Once by a blind man with a stick.

Bah, Fett jumps into the Sarlacc and climbs out every morning for excersise.

[Mando Knight]

Really?
I think it looks more sophisticated, like she learned how to show off her feminism without being half naked. Maybe this is why it seems to be more provocative to you? Because it is more mature and attractive and becoming?

It also has a Power Girl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Girl)-style chest-window (though smaller and more diamond-shaped), and a completely open back. The fact that the outfit was shown off by a moderately slow pan to which Ahsoka quipped something to the effect of "I guess boys are the same on both sides" doesn't hurt, either.

Actually, what I noticed more about her looking older was that her montrals (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Montral) seemed longer, and then realized there was also a different outfit that had a maturing effect on her appearance.

[hamishspence]

For those who've read the Revenge of the Sith novelization- have you ever found yourself mentally inserting the scene from the novel, in place of the similar scene from the movie?

Dooku fight scene:
Dooku: I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child. Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?
(Anakin starts to lose the edge in the fight)
Palpatine: Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it! Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!
(Anakin defeats Dooku, cutting off both his hands in the process)
Palpatine: Good, Anakin! Good! I knew you could do it!
Palpatine: Kill him. Kill him now.
Dooku: Chancellor, please! Please, you promised me immunity! We had a deal! Help me!
Palpatine: A deal only if you released me. Not if you used me as bait to kill my friends.
Palpatine: Anakin, finish him.
Anakin: I shouldn't-
Palpatine: Do it! Now!
(Anakin kills Dooku)
Anakin: I- I couldn't stop myself...
Palpatine: You did well, Anakin. You did not only well, but right. He was too dangerous to leave alive.
Anakin: He was an unarmed prisoner...
Anakin: I shouldn't have done that.
Palpatine: Nonsense. Disarming him was nothing; he had powers beyond your imagination.
Anakin: That doesn't matter. It's not the Jedi way.
Palpatine: Have you never noticed that the Jedi way, is not always the right way?
Anakin: You don't understand. You're not a Jedi. You can't understand.
Palpatine: Anakin, listen to me. How many lives have you just saved with this stroke of a lightsaber? Can you count them?
Anakin: But-
Palpatine: It wasn't wrong, Anakin. It may be not the Jedi way, but it was right. Perfectly natural- he took your hand; you wanted revenge. And your revenge was justice.
Anakin: Revenge is never just. It can't be-
Palpatine: Don't be childish, Anakin. Revenge is the foundation of justice. Justice began with revenge, and revenge is still the only justice some beings can ever hope for. After all, this is hardly your first time, is it? Did Dooku deserve mercy more than did the Sand People who tortured your mother to death?
Anakin: That was different.
Anakin: You promised we would never talk about that again.
Palpatine: And we won't. Just as we need never speak of what has happened here today. I have always kept your secrets, have I not?
Anakin: Yes- yes, of course, Chancellor, but-
Palpatine: Anakin, my restraints, please. I'm afraid this ship is breaking up. I don't think we should be aboard when it does.
Palpatine: Come along, Anakin. There is very little time.
Anakin: Obi-Wan - !
Palpatine: Leave him, Anakin. There is no time. This whole spire may be about to break free-
Anakin: Then we'll all be adrift together.
Anakin: His fate, will be the same as ours.

Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan on Mustafar:
Padme: Anakin, my Anakin ... I've been so frightened ...
Anakin: Shh. Shh, it's all right. You never need to worry about me. Didn't you understand? No-one can hurt me. No-one will ever hurt either of us.
Padme: It wasn't that, my love, it was- oh, Anakin, he said such terrible things about you!
Anakin: About me? Who would want to say bad things about me?
(Anakin chuckles). Who would dare?
Padme: Obi Wan. He said- he told me you turned to the dark side, that you murdered Jedi ... even younglings ...
Anakin: Obi-Wan's alive?
Padme: Y-yes- he, he said he was looking for you ...
Anakin: Did you tell him where I am?
Padme: No, Anakin! He wants to kill you. I didn't tell him anything- I wouldn't!
Anakin: Too bad.
Padme: Anakin, what-
Anakin: He's a traitor, Padme. He's an enemy of the state. He has to die.
Padme: Stop it. Stop talking like that ... you're frightening me!
Anakin: You're not the one who needs to be afraid.
Padme: It's like, it's like- I don't even know who you are anymore ...
Anakin: I'm the man who loves you. I'm the man who would do anything to protect you. Everything I have done, I have done for you.
Padme: Anakin ... what have you done?
Anakin: What I have done is bring peace to the Republic.
Padme: The Republic is dead. You killed it. You and Palpatine.
Anakin: It needed to die.
Padme: Anakin, can't we just ... go? Please. Let's leave. Together. Today. Now. Before you- before something happens-
Anakin: Nothing will happen. Nothing can happen. Let Palpatine call himself Emperor. Let him. He can do all the dirty work, all the messy, brutal oppression it'll take to unite the galaxy forever- unite it against him. He'll make himself into the most hated man in history. And when the time is right, we'll throw him down-
Padme: Anakin, stop-
Anakin: Don't you see? We'll be heroes. The whole galaxy will love us, and we will rule. Together.
Padme: Please stop- Anakin, please, stop, I can't stand it ...
(Obi-Wan moves down the ramp)
Anakin: You ...
Obi-Wan: Padme. Move away from him.
Padme: Obi-Wan? No!
Anakin: You. You brought him here ...
Padme: Anakin?
Obi-Wan: Padme, move away. He's not who you think he is. He will harm you.
Anakin: I would thank you for this, if it were a gift of love.
(Padme starts backing away)
Padme: No, Anakin- no ...
Anakin: Palpatine was right. Sometimes it is the closest who cannot see. I loved you too much, Padme.
(He makes a fist, and she starts choking)
Anakin: I loved you to much to see you! To see what you are!
Obi-Wan: Let her go, Anakin.
Anakin: You will not take her from me!
Obi-Wan: Let her go!
Anakin: Never!
(Padme collapses)
Obi-Wan: Anakin- Anakin, what have you done?
Anakin: You turned her against me.
Obi-Wan: You did that yourself.
Anakin: I'll give you a chance, Obi-Wan. For old times' sake. Walk away.
Obi-Wan: If only I could.
Anakin: Go some place out of the way. Retire. Meditate. That's what you like, isn't it? You don't have to fight for peace anymore. Peace is here. My Empire is peace.
Obi-Wan: Your Empire? It will never have peace. It was founded on treachery and innocent blood.
Anakin: Don't make me kill you, Obi-Wan. If you are not with me, you are against me.
Obi-Wan: Only Sith deal in absolutes, Anakin. The truth is never black and white. Let me take Padme to a medcenter. She's hurt, Anakin. She needs medical attention.
Anakin: She stays.
Obi-Wan: Anakin-
Anakin: You don't get to take her anywhere. You don't get to touch her. She's mine, do you understand? It's your fault, all of it- you made her betray me!
Obi-Wan: Anakin-
(Anakin ignites lightsaber. Obi-Wan ignites his and raises it)
Obi-Wan: Then I will do what I must.
Anakin: You'll try.

[AstralFire]

I read a leaked copy of the RotS novel before the movie and I suspect my enjoyment of the movie may have been improved by my memory superimposing those scenes over the cinema. Stover did it, right? Along with Christie Golden, I really think he's cream of the crop of the writers.

[hamishspence]

Stover- and, for me, Zahn and Stackpole, are among the best.

[AstralFire]

Stover- and, for me, Zahn and Stackpole, are among the best.

I rate Stover and Golden (I know she's newer, but she's good enough to make WARCRAFT enjoyable to read, that's terrifying!) a little higher than Zahn and Stackpole - mostly because I find Thrawn a bit lame and Corran Horn a bit much.

[hamishspence]

I remember her D&D short stories were good- Jander Sunstar, Vampire of the Mists.

And as far as I recall, her Fate of the Jedi novels were good.

[thegurullamen]

That was surprisingly good. It even made the 'Sith absolutes' line more palatable. (sigh) What could have been.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Forgive me for being girly, but reading over things like that and seeing what could have been made of the Anakin/Padme romance and what was made of it makes me a very, very sad fangirl.

[Mando Knight]

Forgive me for being girly,

No, I won't. Forgiving you for being girly would imply that your being girly was a problem. :smalltongue:

[RabbitHoleLost]

More girliness!
I don't know if you guys know this, but Ashley Eckstein, the voice of Ahsoka in the Clone Wars series, started a clothing line called Her Universe.
It essentially merchandise made for girls.
Yeah, yeah, I know.

I'd be interested at first, but so far, its all been Luke and Rebel Alliance stuff, and, tbh, I'd rather have some Empire merchandise and moar Han.
Not to mention, as I'm sure you all guessed, my future husband.

Guys, my prayers have been answered
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Hito-chan/bobaundies.jpg
And! To go with it, they'll produce a red wife beater with the mythosaur skull on it.
Its not in production yet, and, like I said, I'm sure none of you care, but I am thrilled.

[Thrawn183]

I rate Stover and Golden (I know she's newer, but she's good enough to make WARCRAFT enjoyable to read, that's terrifying!) a little higher than Zahn and Stackpole - mostly because I find Thrawn a bit lame and Corran Horn a bit much.

Let's not make this personal, please. I'd rather not have to crush your planet into submission.

[cdstephens]

Forgive me for being girly, but reading over things like that and seeing what could have been made of the Anakin/Padme romance and what was made of it makes me a very, very sad fangirl.

Don't worry, I feel the same.

[Mando Knight]

Today's TCW episode reminded me again why my personal choice for Palpatine's character song is the title track for a Metallica album. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-hEyVQDRA)

And yes, the song's about drugs. But Palpatine fits the lyrics just as well.

[cdstephens]

I'm more than halfway through the novelization of Episode 3.

I have only one question: HOW CAN IT BE SUCH A GREAT BOOK BUT SUCH AN UNDERWHELMING FILM?

Seriously, I actually care about the romance, and the descriptions are just excellent; for example, I got a MUCH better sense of who Count Dooku was as a character in this one book than either Episode 2 or 3 movies.

Grievous is presented as a badass, albeit a cowardly one (can't have everything XP).

The description of how Obi-wan uses the Force is just great.

Anakin's personal conflict actually makes sense and I feel sympathetic towards him.

I also like how they put it right out there that Palpatine is the Sith towards the beginning, allowing them to use him as a means to spread darkness and doubt than just keeping it as a cheap plot twist that people could see coming a mile away.

And the whole thing about the Jedi's suspicion about Palpatine's advisers makes more sense than just being relatively clueless about what's going on.

[SmartAlec]

That was surprisingly good. It even made the 'Sith absolutes' line more palatable. (sigh) What could have been.

Never thought that line was so bad; it's virtually the same in the movie.

Anakin: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.

Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes; I do what I must.

Or in other words, 'I don't have to be your enemy if you'd stop thinking in absolutes'.

[AstralFire]

The Sith-absolutes line was never bad, people got caught up in criticizing it at the surface level and not stopping to think about it for 30 seconds.

[HamHam]

The Sith-absolutes line was never bad, people got caught up in criticizing it at the surface level and not stopping to think about it for 30 seconds.

No it's pretty bad.

The Jedi Order is nothing but codified black and white rules that have almost no justification. A Jedi criticizing a Sith for dealing in absolutes is hilariously ironic.

[AstralFire]

No it's pretty bad.

The Jedi Order is nothing but codified black and white rules that have almost no justification.

This is not true at any point except maybe KotOR era.

[hamishspence]

The "non-attachment rule" keeps going on and off- in the Nomi Sunrider era, Jedi being married isn't a problem- it's portrayed as a big problem in the Darth Bane era, and in the prequel movies era.

Even then, they make exceptions for some, and enforce it heavily on others.
Anakin wasn't the only Jedi to keep his marriage a secret from the Order in that period.

[Dienekes]

The Sith-absolutes line was never bad, people got caught up in criticizing it at the surface level and not stopping to think about it for 30 seconds.

I think it's not so much that the thought behind it is bad, but it's almost hilariously ironic that a character condemns absolutes by giving an absolute.

Take a line like
Ani: If you're not with me, you're against me.
Obi: So you would kill all who disagree with you?
Ani: If I have to.

Hopefully it'd be a lot better written of course, I'm no writer. But something that doesn't make me chortle would be nice for such a dramatic scene.

[SmartAlec]

I think it's not so much that the thought behind it is bad, but it's almost hilariously ironic that a character condemns absolutes by giving an absolute.

There's nothing wrong with speaking absolutes. Some things are absolute truths. It's dealing in absolutes and applying absolute thinking in your life that's the thing, and that's something in the galaxy you'd rarely see in someone who's not a Sith.

[Dienekes]

There's nothing wrong with speaking absolutes. Some things are absolute truths. It's dealing in absolutes and applying absolute thinking in your life that's the thing, and that's something in the galaxy you'd rarely see in someone who's not a Sith.

Yes, it can be explained to make sense. It doesn't change how it comes off when watching the film.

[Turalisj]

I rate Stover and Golden (I know she's newer, but she's good enough to make WARCRAFT enjoyable to read, that's terrifying!) a little higher than Zahn and Stackpole - mostly because I find Thrawn a bit lame and Corran Horn a bit much.

*dons fireproof jacket*

Thrawn is an overused concept and Corran is a Skywalker stand in.

*runs and hides*

[hamishspence]

Meh- the Magnificent Bastard concept hasn't really been done well in the EU, besides Thrawn.

As for Corran- he can be a bit Stu-ish, but he makes quite a few mistakes as well. And he gets to point out some of the things that were ignored during the Jedi Academy trilogy.

[thegurullamen]

*dons fireproof jacket*

Thrawn is an overused concept and Corran is a Skywalker stand in.

*runs and hides*

Thrawn as a trope may be overused, but a) it's a pretty badass trope so long as it's handled right and b) Zahn used him well enough that he's both entertaining and awesome. I believe that most problems with Thrawn arose after the EU got up and running (i.e., the other writers didn't know how to write about him.)

More to the point, the Empire needed Thrawn. No one in that bureaucratic nightmare had any legitimate gravitas around them before he came along (save for the Emperor and...well...Ewoks happened.) And even afterward, the best they could do was Daala. I'm glad we got a glimpse of not only a competent, non-(overly-)arrogant leader for the Empire (which had been lacking), but of competent and realistic underlings as well.

[cdstephens]

Yes, it can be explained to make sense. It doesn't change how it comes off when watching the film.

Here's the dialogue in the book.




*Anakin chokes Padme*

Obi-Wan: Anakin-Anakin, what have you done?

Anakin: You turned her against me.

Obi-Wan: You did that yourself.

Anakin: I'll give you a chance, Obi-Wan. For old times' sake. Walk away.

Obi-Wan: If only I could.

Anakin: Go some place out of the way. Retire. Meditate. That's what you like, isn't it? You don't have to fight for peace anymore. Peace is here. My Empire is peace.

Obi-Wan: Your Empire? It will never have peace. It was founded on treachery and innocent blood.

Anakin: Don't make me kill you, Obi-Wan. If you are not iwth me, you are against me.

Obi-Wan: Only Sith deal in absolutes, Anakin. The truth is never black and white.

Let me take Padme to a medcenter. She's hurt, Anakin. She needs medical attention.

Anakin: She stays.

Obi-Wan: Anakin-

Anakin: You don't get to take her anywhere. You don't get to touch her. She's mine, do you understand? It's your fault, all of it-you made her betray me]!

Obi-wan: Anakin-

*Anakin ignites his lightsaber*

Obi-wan: Then I will do what I must.

Anakin: You'll try.

[Turalisj]

The more I hear about this book... the more I'm wishing that the dialog could have been used from that instead of the cheesy stuff that's in the movie.

[cdstephens]

The more I hear about this book... the more I'm wishing that the dialog could have been used from that instead of the cheesy stuff that's in the movie.

The ending scene when Vader gets his suit of armor made me teary eyed...it was just so well done for me, and so perfectly set up.

[Turalisj]

That's pretty much the only scene that didn't have b-rate lines....

Morale of Revenge of the Sith? Love makes you a brain dead child killing monster.

[The Glyphstone]

They made up for it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s&feature=related)

[Turalisj]

Was that finding out about Padme dying, or that there'd be an animated CG show (I'm not calling it a cartoon, as it does not fit the conventional though of cartoons) about him having to train a padawan who seems to always be right?

Or was it finding out that a certain author would kill the wookie?
I will never forgive R.A Salvatore for killing Chewbacca. NEVER!

[The Glyphstone]

Or was it finding out that a certain author would kill the wookie?


Reportedly, said author will never forgive himself either - he was mandated to do it, on the order of 'do it or we take the contract offer away and let someone who is willing to do it write the book'.

[Turalisj]

Ah, I guess I'll slightly forgive him then...

At least Chewie went out in an awesome way- getting an entire freaking moon crushed on him. And Anakin Solo went out letting every jedi in the galaxy know he was going....

If there's one thing you can say about deaths in the Vong War, it's that they are never bland.

[chiasaur11]

The ending scene when Vader gets his suit of armor made me teary eyed...it was just so well done for me, and so perfectly set up.

With the NOOOOOOOOOOOO?

It sucked as much as the rest of the film, I think. Although being over is a virtue for Rots, I will admit.

[Jade_Tarem]

If there's one thing you can say about deaths in the Vong War, it's that they are never bland.

There are some great send-outs, but never?

Lusa's death basically boils down to: "BTW Lusa died it was sad lol c u."

If you don't know who Lusa is, she was (kind of) a big deal in the Young Jedi Knights books, which I wouldn't blame you for not caring about except that they referenced them heavily everywhere else where Jacen and Jaina are concerned.

Elegos A'Kla and Chak Fel also manage to die 'off-camera.' Raynar Thul disappears without a trace, albeit so that he could become the Big Bad of the Killik Trilogy (Place your bets on where Zekk will turn up!).

[Turalisj]

I did say Vong Wars....

Granted, I only read 4 of the books and personally own only one of them.

[Reverent-One]

Elegos A'Kla and Chak Fel also manage to die 'off-camera.' Raynar Thul disappears without a trace, albeit so that he could become the Big Bad of the Killik Trilogy (Place your bets on where Zekk will turn up!).

Isn't he already back?