What's with the Eldritch Knight Hate?

[Jack Zander]

I see plenty enough monk/ToB/Arcane Archer threads but no Eldritch Knight hate lately. Is it because they are a good class now?

I personally always thought the class was awesome. Sure, you lose two caster levels just entering the class, but what if your focus wasn't spellcasting? What if your role in the party was meatshield? I personally think the EK is a better choice for your melee types, ACF barbarian/fighters included.

Fighter level 1 with EWP (spiked chain), Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip, grabbing Combat Reflexes at level 3.
Wizard 5 focusing on Conjuration to get Abrupt Jaunt and banning evocation and necromancy (both schools rely mostly on saving throws and we'll be a self-buffer anyway). Level 6 feat can be whatever you want at this point.
10 levels of Eldritch Knight and then top it off with whatever you want. Your HP may be a bit lacking, but that's not a problem with all your defensive buffs. You only lose 3 points of BAB, and you've got strong fort and will saves.

So what's up with all the hate? Sure its not as good as a single classed wizard of comparable level, but then again, what is?

[Aron Times]

Well, it's a middle-of-the-road class. It's balanced, and it's bland. It's mostly the latter that people have a problem with. Eldritch Knight levels are used mostly as filler for when you max out other gish prestige classes like Abjurant Champion.

[true_shinken]

So what's up with all the hate? Sure its not as good as a single classed wizard of comparable level, but then again, what is?

It sucks because Abjurant Champion, Cyran Avenger, Knight Phantom and Jade Phoenix Mage all do the exact same job better and also give actual class features.

/thread

[arguskos]

There's just better choices out there, and that's the thing. Compare Eldritch Knight to Abjurant Champion or Knight Phantom.

They are a good gishy dude if there's nothing better (core Sorcadin, I guess), but I am personally of the opinion there are always better options.

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget Swift Blade.

So classes that are like Eldritch Knight but have class features:
Swift Blade
Abjurant Champion
Knight Phantom.
Jade Phoenix Mage
Cyran Avenger

[Eldariel]

It's a fine class for Gishes but given it has no class features, it's not terribly interesting. It's always been fine, but not the thing Gishes wanted (Hint: That's Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) & Jade Phoenix Mage [and less the latter since it's so lackluster compared to Ruby Knight Vindicator with regards to school access, class features & skills]). Also, Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) is a good example of an interesting, engaging Gish-design.

EDIT: Knight Phantom isn't actually better. It's just a bit more interesting. For what it's worth, I rather use Eldritch Knight since I can do more with feats than Knight Phantom's Class Features That Are Really Just Spells In Disguise.

[Eldan]

Yes. In the end, it's basically nothing but a wizard trading casting for a high base attack bonus. It can't do anything new and interesting, and that sucks.

[true_shinken]

EDIT: Knight Phantom isn't actually better. It's just a bit more interesting. For what it's worth, I rather use Eldritch Knight since I can do more with feats than Knight Phantom's Class Features That Are Really Just Spells In Disguise.

Feats, plural? Eldritch Knight only gets one bonus feat. Knight Phantom is already better if only for the hit dice.

[arguskos]

EDIT: Knight Phantom isn't actually better. It's just a bit more interesting. For what it's worth, I rather use Eldritch Knight since I can do more with feats than Knight Phantom's Class Features That Are Really Just Spells In Disguise.
For pure OpFu, yeah, I agree, but for INTEREST, KP is more fun than EK, which is "lolilikeswordslol" as opposed to KP's "IRMAGIKHORSEGUY:smallbiggrin:".

[ericgrau]

It's a fine class for Gishes but given it has no class features, it's not terribly interesting.
Neither does sorcerer / wizard, for the most part (ya ya occasional bonus feat and familiar progression). Otherwise IMO casting is interesting enough on its own. I think the main reason it gets hate is that abjurant champion and so on are better. It's not that bad of a class except for the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none syndrome.

[Eldariel]

Feats, plural? Eldritch Knight only gets one bonus feat. Knight Phantom is already better if only for the hit dice.

Knight Phantom takes an extra in prerequisites (the very weak Still Spell). Honestly, two feats is way, way stronger than the crap Knight Phantom offers. Of course it's more interesting since it does something, but I find the feats can do more interesting stuff (some metamagic like Smiting Spell or Split Ray, some good stuff like Knowledge Devotion or Arcane Strike, etc.).

Indeed, I often find the feats lend themselves to more interesting character overall than having few spells as spell-likes. Extra HD; bleh. Most of your HP will come from Con anyways. Extra 10 points isn't even Improved Toughness and that's assuming you take the KP/EK all the way.


Neither does sorcerer / wizard, for the most part (ya ya occasional bonus feat and familiar progression). Otherwise IMO casting is interesting enough on its own. I think the main reason it gets hate is that abjurant champion and so on are better. It's not that bad of a class except for the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none syndrome.

Casting is another class's class feature tho. I feel it's special for straight casters. From a PrC, I'd expect some abilities to tie together the casting and the BAB; make a character more than the combination of its parts. Somehow make it feel like a swordmage instead of a mage and a fighter.

[Valameer]

Most other builds that cover what the Eldritch Knight can do not only do it slightly better, but they tend to have much more exciting flavour and features than the EK. EK is written up sort of like, [Cal.from.Undergrads] "Swords... yeah! Spells... yeah!" [Cal/]

That said, I've always thought Eldritch Knight was the coolest named PrC out there... but then again two of my favorite words are knight and eldritch.

Right up there with cellar door (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellar_door), I tell ya. :smallwink:

[FMArthur]

What you get over the course of ten levels: +5 more BAB, around +10 HP, and a single fighter bonus feat.

What you give up for it: Two levels of your spellcasting class feature (one to qualify and one at its first level), wizard bonus feats.


Is that worth being 2 levels behind? Maybe for some characters. It's not the worst trade out there. But it's not really good because so many caster PrCs don't do any trade at all and instead are just purely more powerful than most base casters. PrCs that you would probably take if you weren't going into Eldritch Knight... so even if EK didn't lose you anything at all, someone who didn't go into it and instead picked one that enhanced your spellcasting ability is going to be stronger by a fair bit; it's just a weaker choice among awesome choices.

[ericgrau]

Somehow make it feel like a swordmage instead of a mage and a fighter.
Actually "mage and fighter" is how the DMG describes it. I was struggling to figure out ways to combine them for a build until I read the DMG examples and said "Ohhh. Try either or each round, as appropriate." Is that just an excuse for lazy design? Possibly.

FWIW the builds that I've come up with that use magic on a fighter all dip only 1 level into casters for scroll/wand/staff use plus rod-quickened true strikes. Given that wands, staffs, true strike and feather fall work while fully armored, it may have been designed this way. For that matter many of the low level spells, especially level 2, seem designed for scrolls and wands. A dip also allows entry into certain PrCs.

[Ravens_cry]

I want to try it sometime. Why? Because it is so bland you can easily project your own fluff on it, making it a versatile class.

[Telonius]

What you get over the course of ten levels: +5 more BAB, around +10 HP, and a single fighter bonus feat.

What you give up for it: Two levels of your spellcasting class feature (one to qualify and one at its first level), wizard bonus feats.


Is that worth being 2 levels behind? Maybe for some characters. It's not the worst trade out there. But it's not really good because so many caster PrCs don't do any trade at all and instead are just purely more powerful than most base casters. PrCs that you would probably take if you weren't going into Eldritch Knight... so even if EK didn't lose you anything at all, someone who didn't go into it and instead picked one that enhanced your spellcasting ability is going to be stronger by a fair bit; it's just a weaker choice among awesome choices.

I think the issue is that they were designing it with a pure multiclass Fighter/Wizard in mind. Meaning, take one level of Fighter, then one of Wizard, then one of Fighter, etc, to avoid multiclassing penalties. Assuming somebody wanted to do that all the way out to 20, it's absolutely a better choice. You end up with lots more spells and a higher attack bonus. (Note that a lot of the half-casting PrCs that nobody ever takes are also set up using similar assumptions). What I think they didn't anticipate was that practically everybody would ignore the multiclass XP penalties, or that they'd see it as something to primarily stick onto a Wizard9/Fighter1 chassis.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

EK really isn't all that good. There's much more viable options to the Gish connisieur.

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist8

+16 BAB and 18/20 casting. That gets you 9th level spells. This particular build also nets you your casting stat to all saving throws, which is particularly nice.

Fighter1/Wiz6/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist7

You only loose a single caster level in this build. In other words, you've got the same spell progression as a Sorcerer, with the ability to change up your spell selection easier, with the ability to gish it up with a decent BAB and the ability to toss out auto-quickened Abjuration spells of 3rd level and lower.

Both of these options are stronger than Pal/Sorce/EK or Fighter/Wiz/EK

[Eldariel]

EK really isn't all that good. There's much more viable options to the Gish connisieur.

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist8

+16 BAB and 18/20 casting. That gets you 9th level spells. This particular build also nets you your casting stat to all saving throws, which is particularly nice.

Fighter1/Wiz6/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist7

You only loose a single caster level in this build. In other words, you've got the same spell progression as a Sorcerer, with the ability to change up your spell selection easier, with the ability to gish it up with a decent BAB and the ability to toss out auto-quickened Abjuration spells of 3rd level and lower.

Both of these options are stronger than Pal/Sorce/EK or Fighter/Wiz/EK

You forget that EK can be entered without losing CLs. Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 works for 17 BAB and 19 CL. Requires something like Militia, Otherworldly or an Outsider race, sure, but it can be done.

And frankly, Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X is fine.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You forget that EK can be entered without losing CLs. Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 works for 17 BAB and 19 CL. Requires something like Militia, Otherworldly or an Outsider race, sure, but it can be done. You won't qualify for AbChamp without access to *all* weapon and armor proficencies.


And frankly, Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X is fine.

Loosing an extra CL you don't have to is never fine with me. Fighter/Wiz/AbChamp/Sacred Exorcist is in every way superior. Well, it looses a single point of BAB... meh.

[Eldariel]

You won't qualify for AbChamp without access to *all* weapon and armor proficencies.

That's Spellsword, silly. Abjurant Champion only requires one Martial Weapon and no Armor Profs (since, y'know, they rely on Mage Armor-line for Armor). Hence why Elven Swiftblade/Abjurant Champions are so easy to make.


Loosing an extra CL you don't have to is never fine with me. Fighter/Wiz/AbChamp/Sacred Exorcist is in every way superior. Well, it looses a single point of BAB... meh.

Extra feats do matter, and Sacred Exorcist has some limitations. But yeah, builds based on SE are generally fine. Just, EK isn't all that bad either.

[true_shinken]

Knight Phantom takes an extra in prerequisites (the very weak Still Spell).
Oh, indeed, I had forgotten.


Honestly, two feats is way, way stronger than the crap Knight Phantom offers. Of course it's more interesting since it does something, but I find the feats can do more interesting stuff (some metamagic like Smiting Spell or Split Ray, some good stuff like Knowledge Devotion or Arcane Strike, etc.).

Indeed, I often find the feats lend themselves to more interesting character overall than having few spells as spell-likes. Extra HD; bleh. Most of your HP will come from Con anyways. Extra 10 points isn't even Improved Toughness and that's assuming you take the KP/EK all the way. [/quote]
Well, while similar to spells, Knight Phantom abilities are a bit different. They are activated as free actions, for starters - that's already very nice in my book.
You get casting in light armor, also. That's not OMG or anything, but it's another something EK does not get.
The Still Spell tax is a bit rough, but I still think it's better than EK, since you can get feats pretty easily if you really want to (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866566/The_True_Dilettante__New_Feat_Record__504_feats).

[Pechvarry]

Cyran Avenger

What? Where?

[Runestar]

EK really isn't all that good. There's much more viable options to the Gish connisieur.

I thought it was quite a solid prc when DMG3.5 was first released. Blame wotc for making it redundant by releasing other clearly superior classes like AC. :smallmad:

[Starbuck_II]

What? Where?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2


1st level:

Avenging Strike (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can attempt an avenging strike on an enemy who has dealt damage to a Cyran native or ally of yours within the last hour. The avenging strike must be delivered with a melee attack. You can add your Charisma modifier (if positive) to your attack roll and deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per Cyran avenger class level. If you use your avenging strike against a creature that has not dealt damage to an ally within the last hour, the avenging strike has no effect, but that use of the ability is still expended. You can use an avenging strike once per day per point of Charisma bonus (minimum 1/day). You can also spend an action point to use your avenging strike (before the attack roll is made).

and Heroic Spirit as a bonus feat.

[lsfreak]

I thought it was quite a solid prc when DMG3.5 was first released. Blame wotc for making it redundant by releasing other clearly superior classes like AC. :smallmad:

Or blame WotC for realizing EK is pretty much mediocre and that they massively overestimated the importance of BAB. The only reason EK was desirable is that it let you pull off something you normally couldn't, not that it was good. EK should have started out as AbjChamp power to begin with.

[Pechvarry]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2


1st level:

Avenging Strike (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can attempt an avenging strike on an enemy who has dealt damage to a Cyran native or ally of yours within the last hour. The avenging strike must be delivered with a melee attack. You can add your Charisma modifier (if positive) to your attack roll and deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per Cyran avenger class level. If you use your avenging strike against a creature that has not dealt damage to an ally within the last hour, the avenging strike has no effect, but that use of the ability is still expended. You can use an avenging strike once per day per point of Charisma bonus (minimum 1/day). You can also spend an action point to use your avenging strike (before the attack roll is made).

and Heroic Spirit as a bonus feat.

Thank you much.

[Jack Zander]

I thought it was quite a solid prc when DMG3.5 was first released. Blame wotc for making it redundant by releasing other clearly superior classes like AC. :smallmad:

This is how I feel. There really isn't anything wrong with the class. I'd put it at tier 2 or 3 myself. Just because something else is better doesn't make that class not good. For example, if you don't have AC available then is EK still a poor choice?

[Runestar]

Or blame WotC for realizing EK is pretty much mediocre and that they massively overestimated the importance of BAB. The only reason EK was desirable is that it let you pull off something you normally couldn't, not that it was good. EK should have started out as AbjChamp power to begin with.

The purpose of EK was to make the fighter/wizard multiclass a viable option, something which was nigh impossible in 3.0. It shouldn't clearly be superior to a pure fighter or wizard. So you should not end up with a caster that has bab better than a straight wizard, and additional class features to boot!

Disregarding the fact that wizard is so much superior to fighter, the numbers look all right on paper.

1) Wiz16 - bab+8, caster lv16.
2) Fighter16 - bab+16
3) Fighter1/Wiz5/EK10 - bab+13, caster lv 14.
4) Fighter7/wiz9 (don't laugh, this was the statblock for Alustriel's son) - bab+11, caster lv9.

As always, I blame splatbook creep.

[Eldariel]

The Still Spell tax is a bit rough, but I still think it's better than EK, since you can get feats pretty easily if you really want to (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866566/The_True_Dilettante__New_Feat_Record__504_feats).

Sticking to PO, it tends to be pretty hard though :smallwink: Don't forget that you can just as easily generate HD, stats or anything else too but we aren't doing that either in real games (for this particular exercise to be useful, you really need to start DCSing things and meh).

But yeah, KP's abilities are basically:

Somatic Prowess: It's rather easy to get ASFless light armor. This helps a teensy bit but nothing major, especially on these levels (and with Abjurant Champion in the picture).
Aspect of the Phantom: Nice if you don't have e.g. Overland Flight or Phantom Steed or some such in effect but those are hour/level abilities and one of which your entire class is based on... Incredibly fringe to have those dispelled and be in an area where you can't walk and lack the actions to recast those.
Countenance of the Phantom: Blur...eeeh. Free bonus is free so nobody's complaining, I guess, but I'd really imagine you'd rather just have something like Greater Blink active anyways. I mean, 20% miss chance isn't exactly reliable. And a Charisma-based Will-save-or-Shakened would be better if the class didn't work better for Int-based casters (due to losing CLs). Not to mention it's one-round shakened, nothing special, and it doesn't work with fear escalation. Making it very weak.
Blade of the Phantom: Basically Su Brilliant Blade. Free action is nice, granted, but still, it's the only truly useful ability the class has to offer and if you're taking other classes, comes way late.


Overall, I do feel two feats is stronger in PO world.