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radhop
2010-10-08, 06:33 PM
Class name: Edge Punisher

Edge Punishers are warriors that use over sized weapons at the expense of lighter armor and slower movement.

Race: Most races that become a Edge Punisher are stronger races with smaller races are a 1 in a million chance.But the majority are humans.

Alignment: Staying more in the neutral zone but they can freely change alignment without penalty unless something like a prerequisite or a deity prevents them from doing so.

HD: 1d10

Level Base Attack Bonus

1st +1
2nd +2
3rd +3
4th +4
5th +5
6th +6/1
7th +7/2
8th +8/3
9th +9/4
10th +10/5
11th +11/6/1
12th +12/7/2
13th +13/8/3
14th +14/9/4
15th +15/10/5
16th +16/11/6/1
17th +17/12/7/2
18th +18/13/8/3
19th +19/14/9/4
20th +20/15/10/5

Saving Throws
Fort Ref Will
1:+2 +0 +0
2:+3 +0 +0
3:+3 +1 +1
4:+4 +1 +1
5:+4 +1 +1
6:+5 +2 +2
7:+5 +2 +2
8:+6 +2 +2
9:+6 +3 +3
10:+7 +3 +3
11:+7 +3 +3
12:+8 +4 +4
13:+8 +4 +4
14:+9 +4 +4
15:+9 +5 +5
16:+10 +5 +5
17:+10 +5 +5
18:+11 +6 +6
19:+11 +6 +6
20:+12 +6 +6

Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level; 4 at 1st level)
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str)and Tumble (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All Simple and Martial weapons, Light armor

When choosing feats count Edge Punisher levels as a Fighter.

Monkey Grip:The Edge Punisher is capable of wielding a Larger sword than humanly possible. be it at a -2 penalty to attack. The edge Punisher gains this as a free feat at lvl 1.

Hard Swing: When a Edge Punisher wields a large weapon 2-handed he gains a +1 to damage. He gains this skill at lvl 1.

Power Attack: A Edge Punisher is able to swing his weapon with great force.The edge Punisher gains this as a free feat at lvl 1.

Bonus feat lvl 3

Power Swing: Acts like Hard Swing but is a +2. He gains this skill at lvl 4

Tight Grip: This skill acts like Monkey Grip but he no longer suffers a -2 penalty for attacking with a large weapon. He gains this skill at lvl 4

Bonus feat lvl 6

Familiar Weight: When wielding a large weapon the Edge Punisher gains a +2 to AC. He gains this skill at lvl 7

Improved Power Swing: Acts like Power Swing but is +3. He gains this skill at lvl 8

Bonus feat lvl 9

Mega Swing: Acts likes Improved Power Swing but is +4. He gains this skill at lvl 12

Improved Monkey Grip:The Edge Punisher has become so adjusted to large sized weapons that they move onto huge weapons. The edge Punisher can now hold a huge weapon with a -2 penalty they gain this skill at lvl 12

Bonus feat lvl 12

Predictable Movement: The Edge Punisher is capable of making AoO at a range of 10ft. he gains this skill at lvl 15

Bonus feat lvl 15

Improved Mega Swing: Acts likes Mega Swing but is +5. He gains this skill at lvl 16

Bonus feat lvl 18

Ultimate Swing: Acts likes Impoved Mega Swing but is +6. He gains this skill at lvl 20

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-08, 10:23 PM
This...does nothing. The entire class is a minor AC bonus, a minor damage bonus, and reach, which can be done by a vanilla fighter in a quarter of the levels. I hate to sound harsh, but this class really has no good reason to exist. Try coming up with some interesting class features, or turn it into a 3-level prestige class.

DrWeird
2010-10-08, 10:34 PM
Actually, this would be a perfect three-level class. Cut down the abilities into three-levels of bonus feats and bonuses, maybe eliminating any penalties for using weapons twice your size category, and maybe add in a hit die, probably d8.

Good call, Pair.

Morph Bark
2010-10-09, 04:08 AM
Actually, this would be a perfect three-level class. Cut down the abilities into three-levels of bonus feats and bonuses, maybe eliminating any penalties for using weapons twice your size category, and maybe add in a hit die, probably d8.

Good call, Pair.

Up the HD size and call it "Paragon Fighter"? I mean hey, it would be better than vanilla Fighter if it'd get a bonus feat every level plus other bonuses.

Cidolfas
2010-10-09, 11:10 AM
Even as a 3 level prestige class, is one size bigger of a weapon and a pretty minor damage bonus even worth much? As is stands, the abilities should be boosted to make this class not particularly useless. The reach is the most useful ability this class gets, but as mentioned before a base fighter can get similar abilities in less time. This class doesn't really do enough, and offers little in the way of options and flexibility that I think make classes more appealing for individuality. As it stands, almost every version of this class is mechanically the same, since most of the same feats (Power attack, etc.) will usually be taken to increase combat efficacy.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-09, 01:16 PM
Even as a 3 level prestige class, is one size bigger of a weapon and a pretty minor damage bonus even worth much?

Translating it directly wouldn't do much, but a thematic reworking might do it. Something like:

Level 1--Make Cloud Jealous: Wield any size weapon you can lift with no penalty.

Level 2--You Can't Escape: Your weapons gain a reach of 5 feet plus 5 feet per size category above Medium.

Level 3--Impossible Parry: Gain cover or concealment from your weapon in varying degrees based on its size.

Mix well, pepper with bonus feats to taste, serves 1 fighter.

Milskidasith
2010-10-09, 01:19 PM
Translating it directly wouldn't do much, but a thematic reworking might do it. Something like:

Level 1--Make Cloud Jealous: Wield any size weapon you can lift with no penalty.

Level 2--You Can't Escape: Your weapons gain a reach of 5 feet plus 5 feet per size category above Medium.

Level 3--Impossible Parry: Gain cover or concealment from your weapon in varying degrees based on its size.

Mix well, pepper with bonus feats to taste, serves 1 fighter.

That leads to some *insane* reach, y'know. Like... you could probably get 40+ foot reach with light optimization.

Knaight
2010-10-09, 01:55 PM
Its not all that hard to begin with. Reach Weapon, martial stance: That one that gives +5 reach, tall, enlarge person. Reach is only worth so much anyways, 3 levels for lots of it, a cover bonus, and what not seems entirely fair.

Milskidasith
2010-10-09, 03:17 PM
Its not all that hard to begin with. Reach Weapon, martial stance: That one that gives +5 reach, tall, enlarge person. Reach is only worth so much anyways, 3 levels for lots of it, a cover bonus, and what not seems entirely fair.

Reach is worth a massive amount, TBH. Yeah, 10 foot reach is enough to start getting AoOs... but when you have 40+ foot reach (or, if it's a reach weapon, then, 80+, since reach weapons double your reach), you've got some serious battlefield control. Permanent cover, a decent amount of damage extra on each hit (16.5 extra assuming you can only get to colossal from a 1d8 to 6d6 weapon), and at minimum +30 foot reach (this is assuming pretty minimal strength optimization; you only need to be able to carry 32 of the weapon in order to get five size increases) is pretty extreme for three levels.

EDIT: With only about 42 strength (didn't check the math out perfectly), carrying a weapon that is 200 pounds at colossal, you can (as a heavy load, granted), wield a colossal+++++ weapon. If I'm not mistaken on the way size increases work, that makes the (6d6) colossal weapon into a 32d6 weapon. From your original 1d8 weapon, that is 107.5 extra damage each hit, with 60 foot reach (for a medium creature).

Knaight
2010-10-09, 03:39 PM
Assuming you can hit. You are still going with "hit things with a sword/spear/whatever", which doesn't really do much. Plus, as the reach rules are concerned you don't gain reach from using oversized weapons, so it can be tightly controlled anyways.

radhop
2010-10-09, 04:08 PM
Guys the class isn't supposed to have +80 reach with any weapon and he cant wield a colossal weapon because heck you only have like a 1 in a million chance of ever finding one. The whole cover from a weapon is bogus if a monster cant do it how can a character. I'm sorry if you don't like the class but i have runned it over with all my groups members and my DM and they like the class as it is.

Milskidasith
2010-10-09, 04:16 PM
Assuming you can hit. You are still going with "hit things with a sword/spear/whatever", which doesn't really do much. Plus, as the reach rules are concerned you don't gain reach from using oversized weapons, so it can be tightly controlled anyways.

Except here's the thing: The worst things in the game are those that are excessively broken but limited. Not that "make an attack" is limited, but if it was... that would be really, really bad!

You aim to design a PrC to be roughly balanced for entry. Getting +100 damage per hit, +55 foot reach, and what I can only assume would have to be total cover at all times is vastly more powerful than anything else you can get as a melee class... therefore, it is broken.

Also: You don't gain reach from oversized weapons... except the suggested PrC lets you. And reach weapons (of any size) double your reach, so a reach weapon enhanced by this PrC could easily break 100 foot reach.

EDIT: Radhopp, the class, as is, is basically worthless. It really can't do anything you couldn't by just picking up a couple feats as the fighter, and even then, it wouldn't be a particularly good fighter.

radhop
2010-10-09, 04:24 PM
Well as it stands right now the class that has been posted is not going to be changed any further so if you wish to continue arguing go ahead and be my guest.

drakir_nosslin
2010-10-09, 04:27 PM
Also, you might want to increase the number of skill points it gets. 2/level is just mean, especially since INT will probably be a dumpstat for this one. And yea, this is like a specialized fighter. The theme could work, but the class features need a lot of retooling.

EDIT

Well as it stands right now the class that has been posted is not going to be changed any further so if you wish to continue arguing go ahead and be my guest.

Well, all we are trying to do is give you advice on how to make the class interesting and balanced in play. Right now it's very much going to be a one-trick pony, even more so than the fighter, since it gets less feats.
Also, it feels more like a PRC than a standard class, since the theme is quite narrow.
My 2 cp.

Milskidasith
2010-10-09, 04:30 PM
Well as it stands right now the class that has been posted is not going to be changed any further so if you wish to continue arguing go ahead and be my guest.

Why would you post a class if you had no interest in anybody discussing it? :smallconfused:

radhop
2010-10-09, 04:33 PM
I'm saying i'm not changing the class but please go ahead and discuss this was my first homebrew. and im taking this all in for a next homebrew.

Knaight
2010-10-09, 05:00 PM
Except here's the thing: The worst things in the game are those that are excessively broken but limited. Not that "make an attack" is limited, but if it was... that would be really, really bad!

You aim to design a PrC to be roughly balanced for entry. Getting +100 damage per hit, +55 foot reach, and what I can only assume would have to be total cover at all times is vastly more powerful than anything else you can get as a melee class... therefore, it is broken.

However, this makes several assumptions, not the least of which is a weapon several size modifiers beyond colossal. So, lets look at Pair'o'dice's suggestions.


Level 1--Make Cloud Jealous: Wield any size weapon you can lift with no penalty.

Level 2--You Can't Escape: Your weapons gain a reach of 5 feet plus 5 feet per size category above Medium.

Level 3--Impossible Parry: Gain cover or concealment from your weapon in varying degrees based on its size.
The rapier is probably the best weapon to take advantage of the Level 1 ability.

Medium: 2 lb. 1d6
Large: 16 lb. 1d8
Huge: 128 lb. 2d6
Gargantuan: 1024 lb. 3d6
Colossal: 8192 lb. 4d6
Colossal+: 65,536 lb. 6d6

You need 47 strength to even use the Colossal rapier. 18 base score, +4 ability, +5 levels, +6 item, +5 inherent, for significant strength optimization while remaining in playable levels only gets you up to 38, getting size up to large boosts carrying capacity and strength, so the Colossal rapier can probably be reached through moderate optimization. This gets you an extra 3d6-1 damage, which is a mere 9.5 average, nothing to write home about, as large gets you 1d8 anyways.

Again, significant strength optimization, though reasonable, produces a colossal weapon, large gives a default 10 reach, 5 for medium, another 20 for bonuses. So, 35 reach is reasonable, however there is no reason to expect a reach weapons bonus to double everything, it only doubles weapon reach, getting you to 35 reach. Its not shoddy, but getting 110 or 120 reach isn't difficult even without this class, besides we are looking at level 20.

Now for the third ability. Any reasonable design would only allow this if you weren't attacking, meaning that you can hide behind your weapon and get total cover, if you aren't creating an effect, and even then only in one direction. There are a bunch of ways to bypass it, any of the hostile cloud spells will get you, reasonable design of the ability allows the weapon to be targeted, meaning one disintegrate will ruin your day. Bigger monsters can probably disarm you fairly easily.

Furthermore, using a colossal weapon will earn you a heavy load, which has some big penalties.

Its strong for a 3 level prestige class, but not nearly as strong as suggested, even with Mithral getting above a colossal weapon is going to be difficult. You get 9.5 extra damage, an extra 25 reach, and presumably total cover if you don't attack, at the expense of a significant penalty to dexterity and movement speed. Alternately, you get an extra 7 damage, an extra 20 reach, and presumably still total cover without that penalty. To manage either of these things, you have to put optimization into strength that is at the upper limit of PO, if well below TO standards. There are also some options, the damage bonus can be increased a bit with a different weapon, at the expense of some reach.

That said, it does need limits. There are TO loopholes. If ranged weapons are allowed the sling is weightless, and your only limit is the weight of one sling bullet, combined with high strength optimization this is going to be powerful, though the hulking hurler works out better anyways.

Milskidasith
2010-10-09, 05:07 PM
Knaight, items double in weight each size increase, not multiply times eight.

The entire rest of your post hinges on that assumption... so I don't see a point to responding to it. Also, my weapon modifiers are no assumptions; it goes +1d6, +1d6, +2d6, +2d6, +4d6, +4d6, +8d6, +8d6, etc.

With a 42-43 strength (~8000 pounds for a heavy load), you can, in fact, get a rapier 13 size increases above medium. That's... pretty nice.

Knaight
2010-10-09, 05:27 PM
Its 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, I looked that up on the SRD. However, I just checked the doubling, and that is actually correct. It makes no sense at all*, but its correct.

That said, the class corrects easily enough. Monkey Grip as a prerequisite, Huge weapons granted at level 1, Gargantuan at level 2, Colossal at level 3, with tweaks for small characters. Then everything else applies.

Also, getting to large size gives x4 carrying capacity, so you can get a rapier 15 size categories above medium, or a dagger 16 categories above medium. Which is broken.

*One would expect length, width, and depth to all double. But no, apparently colossal creatures all wield extremely long toothpicks and variations. Or density decreases somehow, leading to extremely small creatures being able to drop weapons through solid ground, with extremely large creatures being able to drop weapons upwards.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-10-09, 06:06 PM
Guys, the suggestion was mostly facetious (I was hoping the Cloud reference would make that more apparent). Using those mechanics as-is would be broken, yes (though the reach ability was made with the assumption of using a reach weapon with a max of Colossal size, so a Colossal spiked chain would have a max reach of 35ft, but that's beside the point). The basic ideas of (A) wield bigger weapons without penalty, (B) gain reach, and (C) use the weapon for defense is workable, so rather than arguing whether my off-the-cuff PrC is balanced, why don't we come up with something that works and is balanced?

Knaight
2010-10-09, 06:22 PM
Sure, its mostly facetious, but it is also mostly functional, or would be if it wasn't undermined by the incredibly dumb rules for item scaling. Sure, some renaming is due, but reach growth, bigger weapon access, and cover form a functional class.