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View Full Version : Thought Exercise: Crusader as Healbot



Amphetryon
2010-10-09, 07:08 AM
What it says on the tin. Assume you wanted to make a straight Crusader focusing on the healing power of your Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances. Without UMD or dipping into a casting class, how would you go about it? Approximately how much healing would you expect to do, to how many targets, at level 20? At level 10?

Kaeso
2010-10-09, 07:25 AM
What it says on the tin. Assume you wanted to make a straight Crusader focusing on the healing power of your Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances. Without UMD or dipping into a casting class, how would you go about it? Approximately how much healing would you expect to do, to how many targets, at level 20? At level 10?

Aren't there like, only two manouvres and stances that actually heal?

I'm no expert on Crusaders, but this thought experiment is certainly interesting. I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

Fouredged Sword
2010-10-09, 07:40 AM
There is a soul meld from Incarnum that adds extra healing to your strikes and stances. Worth a feat. That and extra granted would be my first two feats as a human. TWF would be an odd boost, as it would make that 2hp healing per hit land more oftine due to more attacks. I would also take feats or take levels in Master of Nine to get access to dimond mind and White tiger, to maximise TWF.

That is the main outline of the build I would use.

I have a game running that has a crusader in it and no caster acting as healing. I have almost no chance of wearing the party down. They where level one, and the crusader could throw around the equivelent of a clerics whole spells per day of healing each combat, all the while attacking. At higher levels it would be decidely less effective, I admit, but at low levels it make trying to wear doen the party very hard.

ranagrande
2010-10-09, 07:44 AM
Be a good Crusader. Team up with a Malconvoker. Use the Aura of Triumph stance. Have the Malconvoker Summon Monster I to call a Fiendish Dire Rat or something. Attack it with unarmed strikes doing nonlethal damage until the spell ends, healing yourself and one ally for 4 hp each time. Repeat as needed to heal the party to full after each encounter.

true_shinken
2010-10-09, 07:53 AM
Be a good Crusader. Team up with a Malconvoker. Use the Aura of Triumph stance. Have the Malconvoker Summon Monster I to call a Fiendish Dire Rat or something. Attack it with unarmed strikes doing nonlethal damage until the spell ends, healing yourself and one ally for 4 hp each time. Repeat as needed to heal the party to full after each encounter.

Silly bag of rats is silly.

IncoherentEssay
2010-10-09, 07:56 AM
Well, Crusader's have the following healing strikes & stances:
Crusader's Strike(L1, d6+(1-5))(Strike)
Martial Spirit(L1, 2/hit)(Stance)
Revitalizing Strike(L3, 3d6+(5-10)(Strike)
Aura Of Triumph(L6, 4/hit vs Evil)(Stance)
Aura Of Tyranny(L6, 1hp/2hp of ally w.in 10')(Stance)
Rallying Strike(L6, 3d6+(11-15) for allies w.in 30')(Strike)
Strike of Righteous Vitality(L9, Heal on self or ally w.in10')(Strike)

So 7 options, 4 of which are strikes, and 2 of the stances don't really mesh.
Even if Crus. Strike was relevant beyond L5 or so, you'd need 3 more strikes.
Not really all that good for party healing, sadly :smallsigh:.

Still, i think it is possible to work with it, IF you can find a way to transfer damage from allies to yourself (Shield Other, Emphatic Transfer, etc.), as there is something that meshes rather well with crusaders:
Therapeutic Mantle soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum.
Whenever you are targeted by a healing spell or effect, it heals additional hp equal to its level.
Essentia invested adds 2hp of healing per point.
So with two feats (Shape Soulmeld[Ther.Mant.], Bonus Essentia) you gain Manouver lvl+4 hp from all healing at lvl 6 (for the Bonus Ess. feat), for +7hp from Martial Spirit.
Or +14(4+4+6) at L11 from Aura of Triumph whenever you OR an ally w.in 10' hit an evil creature.
Or, depending on how the effect is resolved, again at L11 +11(1+4+6)/ally from Aura of Tyranny :smallwink:.
So self-healing is quite doable. Maybe add an extra Bonus Essentia at L18 if you feel you need more. Works well with TWF/other sources of moar attacks.

For out-of-battle healing, grab Lifebond Vestments with Shape Soulmeld. It lets you heal 1/2lvls+5/Ess as a Stand.Act. 1/h, so 13 at lvl 6, though you take 1/2 of the damage yourself. Still, you can probably shrug it off in the next encounter :smallamused:.
Since there is no need to keep essentia in Lifeb.V. outside the time you heal, the same 2 or 4 essentia will be fine for both melds, for a total investment of 4 feats.
Or a 2 lvl Incarnate dip w. 1 Bonus Essentia, or a 4 lvl Incarnate dip, if you aren't too set on pure Crusader. Also nets you 1-2 extra soulmelds for other stuff.

Edit: ninja'd on the Incarnum. Hopefully the more detailed explanation is still helpful.

OMG PONIES
2010-10-09, 08:10 AM
A few possible feat suggestions:

Stone Power: less need to heal self due to temp HP
Sudden Recovery: keep expended heal 1/day, which triggers...
Vital recovery: heal 3+level when recovering maneuvers, limit 1/encounter.
God-touched (Dragon 305) + Divine Channeler (Dragon 305) + Extra Turning = turn undead 5/day, perfect for fueling divine feats like...
Divine Spirit: heal as an immediate action with turn attempt

Also, any way to add damage reduction and/or fast healing helps, as it lessens the need to heal yourself so you can turn your focus to the party. The saint template is, as always, a worthy +2 LA. Plus, it's an awesome image--the stoic warrior wading into the haze of battle, trading blows with the enemy while healing his allied troops.

ranagrande
2010-10-09, 03:23 PM
Silly bag of rats is silly.

Silly, perhaps, but perfectly legal and still (in my opinion, of course) the best solution to the original poster's challenge.

If no one else in the party wants to play a Malconvoker, take the Leadership feat and get one as a cohort. As a level 14 Crusader (the minimum level to learn Aura of Triumph) with a charisma of 6, you can get a level 8 cohort, a Sorcerer or Wizard (or any other full caster capable of casting all the Summon Monster spells) 5 or 6/Malconvoker 2 or 3.

Without using any tricks to extend conjuration time, your cohort can use Summon Monster I to summon a Fiendish Dire Rat for 7 rounds. During those 7 rounds, you can attack it 21 times. The ally you are healing can also attack it a number of times based on level and BAB, or a minimum of 7 times if you are healing your cohort.

No one should miss the rat except on a natural 1, which would happen an average of once for you and your cohort combined, but we'll be conservative and say twice. So you hit the rat 26 times, healing 104 damage to both of you.

If you are healing a party member of the same level as yourself rather than your cohort, unless they did extensive multiclassing with BAB +0 classes, they will get at least 7 more attacks. So they and you will be healed for 132 damage.

If you do have a party member Malconvoker instead of needing a cohort one, the summoning spell will last longer, 13 rounds for an unoptimized Whatever Base Spellcaster 5 or 6/Malconvoker 7 or 8. You and your ally in need of healing will each have your own Fiendish Dire Rat, and you will get a combined minimum of 65 attacks on them. On average, 3 of those will be misses on natural 1s, but again, let's be conservative and say 5.

You and your ally will each heal 240 damage. That isn't quite twice as much as a Heal spell from an equivalent level caster, but it's not bad for a level 1 spell.

When one ally is fully healed, you can use a swift action to switch to healing another.

Project_Mayhem
2010-10-09, 05:24 PM
Silly, perhaps, but perfectly legal and still (in my opinion, of course) the best solution to the original poster's challenge.

If no one else in the party wants to play a Malconvoker, take the Leadership feat and get one as a cohort. As a level 14 Crusader (the minimum level to learn Aura of Triumph) with a charisma of 6, you can get a level 8 cohort, a Sorcerer or Wizard (or any other full caster capable of casting all the Summon Monster spells) 5 or 6/Malconvoker 2 or 3.

Without using any tricks to extend conjuration time, your cohort can use Summon Monster I to summon a Fiendish Dire Rat for 7 rounds. During those 7 rounds, you can attack it 21 times. The ally you are healing can also attack it a number of times based on level and BAB, or a minimum of 7 times if you are healing your cohort.

No one should miss the rat except on a natural 1, which would happen an average of once for you and your cohort combined, but we'll be conservative and say twice. So you hit the rat 26 times, healing 104 damage to both of you.

If you are healing a party member of the same level as yourself rather than your cohort, unless they did extensive multiclassing with BAB +0 classes, they will get at least 7 more attacks. So they and you will be healed for 132 damage.

If you do have a party member Malconvoker instead of needing a cohort one, the summoning spell will last longer, 13 rounds for an unoptimized Whatever Base Spellcaster 5 or 6/Malconvoker 7 or 8. You and your ally in need of healing will each have your own Fiendish Dire Rat, and you will get a combined minimum of 65 attacks on them. On average, 3 of those will be misses on natural 1s, but again, let's be conservative and say 5.

You and your ally will each heal 240 damage. That isn't quite twice as much as a Heal spell from an equivalent level caster, but it's not bad for a level 1 spell.

When one ally is fully healed, you can use a swift action to switch to healing another.

Yeah, but that's not *actually* going to be allowed in most games, is it.

OMG PONIES
2010-10-09, 05:32 PM
It's hilarious that the OP said "without dipping a casting class," and a lengthy response is basically "have someone else cast for you."

randomhero00
2010-10-09, 05:36 PM
Eh I'd say the main problem is the distance for most of their heals are only 10 feet...when someone is in trouble they're usually out of range of either you or an enemy to hit.

Amphetryon
2010-10-09, 05:38 PM
Silly, perhaps, but perfectly legal and still (in my opinion, of course) the best solution to the original poster's challenge.

If no one else in the party wants to play a Malconvoker, take the Leadership feat and get one as a cohort. As a level 14 Crusader (the minimum level to learn Aura of Triumph) with a charisma of 6, you can get a level 8 cohort, a Sorcerer or Wizard (or any other full caster capable of casting all the Summon Monster spells) 5 or 6/Malconvoker 2 or 3.

Without using any tricks to extend conjuration time, your cohort can use Summon Monster I to summon a Fiendish Dire Rat for 7 rounds. During those 7 rounds, you can attack it 21 times. The ally you are healing can also attack it a number of times based on level and BAB, or a minimum of 7 times if you are healing your cohort.

No one should miss the rat except on a natural 1, which would happen an average of once for you and your cohort combined, but we'll be conservative and say twice. So you hit the rat 26 times, healing 104 damage to both of you.

If you are healing a party member of the same level as yourself rather than your cohort, unless they did extensive multiclassing with BAB +0 classes, they will get at least 7 more attacks. So they and you will be healed for 132 damage.

If you do have a party member Malconvoker instead of needing a cohort one, the summoning spell will last longer, 13 rounds for an unoptimized Whatever Base Spellcaster 5 or 6/Malconvoker 7 or 8. You and your ally in need of healing will each have your own Fiendish Dire Rat, and you will get a combined minimum of 65 attacks on them. On average, 3 of those will be misses on natural 1s, but again, let's be conservative and say 5.

You and your ally will each heal 240 damage. That isn't quite twice as much as a Heal spell from an equivalent level caster, but it's not bad for a level 1 spell.

When one ally is fully healed, you can use a swift action to switch to healing another.

So far outside the spirit of the original post that I have to presume this is sarcasm?

Akal Saris
2010-10-09, 05:38 PM
Besides actual healing, you could focus on "effective healing" such as providing DR and fast healing for allies. The various devotion feats from C. Champion could help with those, which is partly why I enjoy the RKV so much (though there you're dipping a healing class).

I've been the healer/tank crusader in low level games and it has worked surprisingly well, but I could definitely see it dropping off quickly by 5th level or so.

ranagrande
2010-10-09, 06:22 PM
Because people dislike the idea of enlisting a Malconvoker's assistance, I'm now going to present an even more broken solution.

Be a Good level 14 Crusader, as above. Take Sacred Vow and Vow of Nonviolence, and put some cross-class ranks in Use Rope.

When you fight evil creatures insist on taking them prisoner instead of killing them, either to turn them over to the proper authorities or to reform them yourself. Use nonlethal damage to keep them from posing a threat to themselves or others.

Whenever you or your allies take damage, use Aura of Triumph and make sure your prisoners are properly subdued.

All legal RAW, you have infinite healing for yourself and one other ally at a time at the rate of 12 damage per round, minus the occasional natural 1.

true_shinken
2010-10-09, 06:57 PM
All legal RAW, you have infinite healing for yourself and one other ally at a time at the rate of 12 damage per round, minus the occasional natural 1.

When RAW is 200 miles away from 'something a DM will allow', it hardly even matters.

OMG PONIES
2010-10-09, 07:59 PM
It's RAW legal to carry around a prisoner and beat them repeatedly without losing the benefit of your exalted feats? :smallconfused:

true_shinken
2010-10-09, 08:01 PM
It's RAW legal to carry around a prisoner and beat them repeatedly without losing the benefit of your exalted feats? :smallconfused:

If you by strict RAW (and I never saw anyone doing that regarding to alignments), as long as you cause nonlethal damage, you're golden.

OMG PONIES
2010-10-09, 08:28 PM
Also, is it really infinite? Can you deal nonlethal damage to an unconscious creature?

Cahokia
2010-10-09, 08:33 PM
It's RAW legal to carry around a prisoner and beat them repeatedly without losing the benefit of your exalted feats? :smallconfused:


If you by strict RAW (and I never saw anyone doing that regarding to alignments), as long as you cause nonlethal damage, you're golden.

I'm cracking the word I can't say up. May I sig this?

Greenish
2010-10-09, 08:50 PM
Also, is it really infinite? Can you deal nonlethal damage to an unconscious creature?Of course you can, it's not like they could object.

ranagrande
2010-10-09, 08:52 PM
Of course you can, it's not like they could object.

Yep, and it is, in fact, the best way of making sure that they stay unconscious.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-09, 09:03 PM
If you keep dealing nonlethal damage to a target rendered conscious by nonlethal damage, it becomes lethal. Infinite rat-punching is not viable.

Greenish
2010-10-09, 09:06 PM
If you keep dealing nonlethal damage to a target rendered conscious by nonlethal damage, it becomes lethal.Really? Is that from Rules Comp?

ranagrande
2010-10-09, 09:08 PM
If you keep dealing nonlethal damage to a target rendered conscious by nonlethal damage, it becomes lethal. Infinite rat-punching is not viable.

Do you have a source for that?

OMG PONIES
2010-10-09, 09:08 PM
I'm cracking the word I can't say up. May I sig this?

I'm for it.

gorfnab
2010-10-09, 11:15 PM
Don't forget Draconic Aura: Vigor.

Pechvarry
2010-10-10, 12:05 AM
IF you find yourself with turning, healing devotion and sacred healing (Complete Divine version) are both cool. For example, if you're dipping into Death Delver or something.

I think a Hellreaver build could be interesting. I'd be interested in seeing a Crusader/Hellreaver build optimized to jump back into Crusader occasionally at just the right times to get higher level healing maneuvers w/out too much delay.

As for Therapeutic mantle, there's kinda a problem with it:
The wording starts with "whenever you are the target of a healing spell or effect" which is a "yes" to ToB maneuvers. However, it goes on to say "the spell heals additional damage equal to its spell level". So even though the maneuver, being an effect, is a legal target, it doesn't actually have a "spell level". Of course, most DMs will be kind and use maneuver level as a replacement, but I don't think that's the RAW of it. Regardless, invested essentia WILL increase healing by 2 each.

However, Therapeutic mantle is for receiving healing (even from yourself) -- it won't make you better at healing anyone else, so it's probably not the best option.

Endarire
2010-10-10, 12:19 AM
Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator works well for healing.

I played a full BAB character at level 8 with some Crusader healing. Even with only Rallying Strike, Crusader's Strike, and Martial Spirit, my group went from hurtin' to quite healthy over the course of a long fight.

Zaq
2010-10-10, 12:51 AM
The fly in the ointment that I see is that the most valuable function of the healbot isn't actually keeping your HP above 75% of maximum. It's de-petrifying you, cleansing that nasty poison, making celestial chicken soup when you come down with a case of the demonic sniffles, making sure that you don't have to keep scribbling new and lower numbers next to the attributes on your character sheet, and otherwise getting rid of any other effect that says "ok, the fight's over, but my character's still boned." Until ECL 17, a Crusader really can't do that... which is incredibly unfortunate, really, but I don't know of any way around it offhand without dipping into stuff the OP doesn't want to touch.

Just for keeping your HP at full, yeah, just taking all of the healing-related maneuvers and stances is probably good enough. At low levels, it might be funny to try to get a whole bunch of swings per round (TWF or something similar), because I believe that the healing stance triggers on every hit, does it not? Probably has diminishing returns, but still fun. Really not sure how to get around the whole "I can get your HP to full, but I can't put you back in the fight" issue... maybe a dragonmark? That's getting into some really specific fluff issues, though... dunno.

Pechvarry
2010-10-10, 02:28 PM
Is there a decent way to siphon negative effects to yourself? Would likely be easier to steal them and cure yourself/make yourself immune than to remove those effects from allies.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-10, 04:33 PM
Really? Is that from Rules Comp?


Do you have a source for that?

I thought it said so in the SRD, but looking more closely it only says that if you go unconscious due to nonlethal damage from environmental effects you start taking lethal damage at the same rate. I don't see anything on nonlethal damage to unconscious characters in the SRD or in the FAQ, and I don't have the Rules Compendium. So consider my objection withdrawn.