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Nich_Critic
2010-10-10, 09:09 AM
Hello all,

I'm thinking of running a game using this system, in particular a cute and fuzzy seizure monster campaign. The thing is, most of my roleplaying experience (and that of my friends) comes from dnd 3.5.

Can someone who's played both systems give me an idea of the challenges my group and I will face in the conversion? I noticed that the system seems a lot more free form, with points being used to make character concepts rather then classes. Do you have any ideas how I could handle players trying to game the system? I, and others, have been trained by 3.5 to have that be the default way of making characters. The rules for BESM seem to all be of "follow them if it's fun, break them if it's not", which is something I'm not used to adjudicating.

Zansumkai
2010-10-10, 10:39 AM
Having owned a old car for a while, I can tell you it's a similar experience in that, while a lot of fun, you spend a lot of time under the hood fixing problems. One of my players is actually much better versed in the game and could tell you more about what to watch for, but I have noticed that in BESM the power level of characters is a fair amount higher when all is said and done, weather you're trying to be a munchkin or not. For example in the game we're playing on and off I'm running a paladin/adventurer that has a special attack keyed to his Smite Evil ability (since it is considered a special attack, you can add things to it with the Linked ability) and with only a few 'major' flaws, was able to set it up to do like an extra 5d8 damage.

Nich_Critic
2010-10-10, 11:04 AM
Yeah, I kind of grasped that characters are pretty powerful by default. This would be ok, except I really want to do the monster catching genre, so mundane-ish humans and powerful monsters.

Is there a good way of doing this point wise, or would it be better to restrict attributes if I don't want the trainers getting too strong themselves?

Prime32
2010-10-10, 01:01 PM
Are you using the original Tri-Stat system or the d20 hybrid one?

The latter is basically a poor man's version of Mutants & Masterminds.

Mando Knight
2010-10-10, 01:04 PM
For monster catching, I'd recommend using the item and companion rules: a majority of the points go into the item (item points count double!), which are then applied to the companion (i.e. Monster), who is controlled by the item (the points for adding the companion should be part of the item itself). Tada! You've now essentially got your own Pokéballs.

It should also be noted that, if I remember correctly, this is cheaper than pumping up your own character do both combat and social interactions: you can spec out the monster for combat cheaply: the companion gets X points (100, I think?), then you add the 2Y-C (where C is the cost of adding a companion, which isn't more than 50, IIRC) points from the item, and so you've got Z-Y points left for the character himself... meaning that you could make a 150-point super-social character and a 200-point super-combat monster for only 225 points (if I remember the point values correctly).


...Also, I don't know which version you're playing, Zans, but BESM 3rd doesn't use anything other than d6s... if it's the d20 version, then, well, I think that version was less well-received than the others...

DementedFellow
2010-10-10, 03:05 PM
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=359&it=1

Core rule book for Pokemon-style BESM play. :)

Tengu_temp
2010-10-10, 03:08 PM
Are you using the original Tri-Stat system or the d20 hybrid one?

The latter is basically a poor man's version of Mutants & Masterminds.

Correction: both are. Just in different ways. It's not that Tri-Stat BESM is a bad game per se, it's just that M&M does the same thing better.

The biggest advice I can give for BESM is: make sure everyone creates their characters together. Supervise them. Otherwise you will get two characters with vastly different power levels, despite being built on the same number of points.

Cieyrin
2010-10-10, 03:35 PM
Having futzed around with BESM d20 and not Mutants and Masterminds, I can say the system is not broken enough that it'll put a damper on your fun. Just realize that the game is still very much story driven than mechanics-driven and you should be fine. There are hiccups here and there in the system but nothing an experience group in 3.5 couldn't handle, I think.

Especially pay attention to Mando Knight's advice, as I agree whole-heartedly with the majority of it, with the caveat of pushing the Item rules one step further by using your Item points to purchase ranks in Magic and using your Magic points to purchase even more things. This has the side effect of making your game more Magical Girly in execution but I don't see that as a bad thing per se.

Yora
2010-10-15, 02:25 PM
A question someone here might now:
How does the Imbue restriction in 3rd Ed. work?
As i read it, Imbue means that the character can not benefit from the attribute himself. But if I want to make a spell that allows other to breath underwater or protects them from fire, I would have to take the same attribute again at an even greater point cost, for my own character to use. Is this really how it was intended?

Toptomcat
2010-10-15, 02:31 PM
Correction: both are. Just in different ways. It's not that Tri-Stat BESM is a bad game per se, it's just that M&M does the same thing better.

The biggest advice I can give for BESM is: make sure everyone creates their characters together. Supervise them. Otherwise you will get two characters with vastly different power levels, despite being built on the same number of points.

I have to third this. BESM d20 is more or less strictly worse than Mutants and Masterminds for running any sort of anime game. Or any other game.

Dragosai
2010-10-15, 02:33 PM
BESM is a great bare bones combat system with a lot of stuff for making characters just the way you want them, well almost.
The one thing I would stress to your players is that BESM will break very easy if people want to abuse it at all. It is veyr easy to end up with things like a character that can never be hit by an attack, or can always hit when attacking and may other things like this in the system. Don't get me wrong I think it is a great system to run a lot of different game types in, just make sure you and your players all know that the system is easy to min/max to the point that you are god without trying. As long as everyone playing is on the same page about the system strenghs and weaknesses and what theme and tone the game is going for you should be fine.

Yora
2010-10-16, 07:05 AM
As I see it, this is a requirement for really every game, regardless of the rules. If one player wants to be a munchkin and the others just want to play their sword guy and enjoy the adventure, it will never work out, no matter what rules you use. If your response as a gm is limiting the options for all players, you just get into an arms race in which the optimizer still has an overpowered character, but the other players get more and more restricted.
I've thrown the idea of a game or characters being balanced over board long ago. Trying to enforce balance just leads down a road I really don't want to go. True, breaking the game is easy in some games and very easy in others, but changing the players attitude is really the only thing I think worth of trying.

Dragosai
2010-10-16, 01:00 PM
As I see it, this is a requirement for really every game, regardless of the rules. If one player wants to be a munchkin and the others just want to play their sword guy and enjoy the adventure, it will never work out, no matter what rules you use. If your response as a gm is limiting the options for all players, you just get into an arms race in which the optimizer still has an overpowered character, but the other players get more and more restricted.
I've thrown the idea of a game or characters being balanced over board long ago. Trying to enforce balance just leads down a road I really don't want to go. True, breaking the game is easy in some games and very easy in others, but changing the players attitude is really the only thing I think worth of trying.

Yeah thats all I was saying. In running BESM for my group I just let them know that coming from mostly playing 3.5 where we all knew and could clearly see the breaking point and avoid it, sort of. For BESM I sad the system does not even pretend to be balanced and even if you are NOT trying to break it you will so plan accordingly.

Togo
2010-10-17, 04:08 AM
I've thrown the idea of a game or characters being balanced over board long ago. Trying to enforce balance just leads down a road I really don't want to go. True, breaking the game is easy in some games and very easy in others, but changing the players attitude is really the only thing I think worth of trying.

I tried going down the route of explicitly giving underoptimised characters more plot links, DM- granted powers, and so on. Not more attention per se, because that wasn't fair, but if Billy the warrior ends up as master of Thornkeep and it's 100 soldiers, not because of any feat, but just because that's what happened in the story, it means that Jackie the wizard doesn't dominate the game.

I had some success, but only some. The least powerhacked character ended up as a psychic avatar of his deity, which nicely put him on par with the wizard building his own golem, hollowing it out, and using it as a mecha. If the game had lasted longer, it might not have worked.

But the principle is the same. Plot trumps power, always. Use the plot to make the weaker characters more powerful. Tell the players in advance that's what's going to happen. And talk to the players about their characters, in terms of toning the weaker ones up, and the more powerful ones down.

You also need to balance in-combat and out-of-combat separately. Depending on the style of your game, one may matter less than the other. I've certainly run games where one player is happy to be pretty ineffectual in a fight so long as he has correspondingly more power outside one. Watch out for systems that don't bother to balance out-of combat power, such as AD&D, or Star Wars, and make sure that your plot compensates appropriately

Yora
2010-10-20, 02:39 AM
I have one important question, which is the main reason we're not already playing the game:

How do you make NPCs and Monsters that are stronger than the PCs?

Let's say I have 3 characters build with 300 points each. What do I throw at them?
Are 200 points guards any challange to them, or will they just breeze through. Should I make the boss for a climactic final battle with 400 or maybe even 900 points? Of course it always depends a lot on what I do with the points and it's mostly trial and error, but is their any other way than making up a couple of dozens of encounters and watch how the characters are horribly slaughtered?

Aidan305
2010-10-20, 08:10 AM
Not really. When I run BESM games I tend to throw small groups of minions at the players with one larger, heavily customised, monster. They'll generally take out the smaller mobs in a single hit but will have more difficulty against the mob.

Things I recommend: High HP and armour. Damage in BESM can very easily get obscenely high. You'll need some good high stats here to prevent your boss mob from being one-shotted.
Low damage: Conversely, you don't want your boss mob to be wiping the floor with the players (except when you do). Give him some fun weapon abilities, but make them low damage so that you don't have to worry too much about killing them.

Overall, battles in BESM are more about effect than numbers. As long as it's appropriately dramatic, it should be fine.

Mando Knight
2010-10-20, 08:34 AM
Also, extra actions. It's not as much of a challenge for the players if he can only threaten one of them at a time.

Gavin Sage
2010-10-20, 09:06 AM
How do you make NPCs and Monsters that are stronger than the PCs?

Let's say I have 3 characters build with 300 points each. What do I throw at them?
Are 200 points guards any challange to them, or will they just breeze through. Should I make the boss for a climactic final battle with 400 or maybe even 900 points? Of course it always depends a lot on what I do with the points and it's mostly trial and error, but is their any other way than making up a couple of dozens of encounters and watch how the characters are horribly slaughtered?

Don't build your NPCs and Monsters in the first place.

This isn't D&D where everyone can look up the stats in the MM and argue over whether the Hydra could have EVER made that one saving throw. Or deny all saves in the first place. Just get some basic loose stats together like how much damage an attack does and a scope of abilities. Keep track of HP but if something goes down too quickly for your tastes add on some more.

Also its anime, having nameless mooks NOT being cut to swiss cheese would just be missing the point.

And if somebody makes something truly invincible just make up a special rival for that character designed to either mimic or beat it... and have said rival show up at regular intervals as suits the drama.

Yora
2010-10-20, 09:30 AM
Okay, so we'll just have to figure it out by trial and error what attack, defense, and damage values work for our group. I was only wondering because there was a Fantasy Bestiary for 2nd Ed. that included lots of premade monsters, but with no indication how strong they are in relation to each other, except for the point value of the templates.

Gavin Sage
2010-10-20, 10:09 AM
I remember at least some of the templates being rather badly built personally.

An exspensive Vampire template had elementary errors like including the ability to transform others into vampires but having no points spent on duration. Meaning you could only change someone for all of sixty seconds. Or maybe it was just one turn. Hardly useful for something that cost like a fifth of the template points wise.

And raw points mean fairly little anyways since you can almost double your point value with flaw exploitation. Or other choices, like having a really good sword as your only attack since its all you ever need.

Mando Knight
2010-10-20, 10:33 AM
And raw points mean fairly little anyways since you can almost double your point value with flaw exploitation.Or other choices, like having a really good sword as your only attack since its all you ever need.

Or having an otherwise mundane sword that turns you into Magical Girl Sword-Swinger, getting a 9:20 ratio on every point spent on the alternate form. And you buy extra points via flaws like "Skeleton in the Closet" (I'm a Magical Girl! Don't tell anyone, it's a secret!), "Significant Other" (The guy I have a crush on/girl I have a vaguely romantic relationship with is always getting caught by the monster!), or "Girl/Guy Magnet" (Being the cutest girl in the school is hard on you! Especially when everyone but your crush is constantly trying to ask you out!).

Soras Teva Gee
2010-10-20, 12:46 PM
For a magical girl I'd prefer a small red jewel instead of a sword with the skeletons being my family's history as ninja-bodyguard-assasins and significant other being my main opponent.... but yes.

I was always personal to the power that lets you swap out powers myself.

Prime32
2010-10-20, 01:27 PM
For a magical girl I'd prefer a small red jewel instead of a sword with the skeletons being my family's history as ninja-bodyguard-assasins and significant other being my main opponent.... but yes.Sounds... oddly familiar. :smallwink:

Toptomcat
2010-10-20, 01:36 PM
I hate to belabor my point here, but flaw exploitation is a nonissue in M&M, and Power Level provides a benchmark for your players' opposition that's vastly more useful than point total.

Yora
2010-10-20, 01:48 PM
I don't think flaw exploitation isn't actually an issue for anyone here.

And while not completely familiar with M&M, BESM also has a power level limitation.

Tengu_temp
2010-10-20, 02:21 PM
BESM also has a power level limitation.

Really? Where is it mentioned? I must've missed it.

Yora
2010-10-20, 02:34 PM
It's among the optional benchmarks on page 9. Though in the spirit of the game, they are quite high.

But there's quite a chance I didn't got the limits in M&M right, just looked over it once or twice some time ago.