Becoming a Lord of Waterdeep?

[tahu88810]

Perhaps I've just rolled very badly on my Knowledge (Forgotten Realms) check, but I can't seem to find any information on what it takes to become a Lord of Waterdeep. Could anybody point me in the right direction, or just tell me? I've a player who's character's goal is to become one, but before I can set up a plot arc for that, I kind of need to know what has to be done.

[Marnath]

One of the characters in Elfsong becomes a Lord of Waterdeep by the end of the book, I don't know if that helps or not. It's a novel by Elaine Cunningham.

[herrhauptmann]

Power of Faerun

Being rich like an adventurer doesn't do it alone. Have to own numerous businesses that benefit waterdeep, or 1 VERY successful business.
A lot of brownnosing to the other lords of waterdeep, showing your devotion to the city, and your humility to them. If you live in the city (required), live in a small house. Even if you own half the city. Do other things that benefit the city, like dredging the harbour with magic, but don't make a big production that it was YOU who had it dredged.
Also, if you go by PoF, no one has been made a lord of waterdeep in over a century...

Of course, finding the identities of the hidden lords might help, then you'd know who the real powers are. Of course, if they feel threatened, you might suddenly get powerful adventuring groups on your case, armed with the power of plot.

Edit: Which character was in Elfsong? The only of her books I can think of is the series where Gromph Baenre's daughter wanders around with a Frenzied Berserker/Bear Warrior. And that was windwaker or something

[tahu88810]

Power of Faerun

Being rich like an adventurer doesn't do it alone. Have to own numerous businesses that benefit waterdeep, or 1 VERY successful business.
A lot of brownnosing to the other lords of waterdeep, showing your devotion to the city, and your humility to them. If you live in the city (required), live in a small house. Even if you own half the city. Do other things that benefit the city, like dredging the harbour with magic, but don't make a big production that it was YOU who had it dredged.
Also, if you go by PoF, no one has been made a lord of waterdeep in over a century...

Of course, finding the identities of the hidden lords might help, then you'd know who the real powers are. Of course, if they feel threatened, you might suddenly get powerful adventuring groups on your case, armed with the power of plot.

Edit: Which character was in Elfsong? The only of her books I can think of is the series where Gromph Baenre's daughter wanders around with a Frenzied Berserker/Bear Warrior. And that was windwaker or something

Thanks a lot. :D

[Marnath]

Danilo something or other. The daft bard guy who is Khelben's nephew and in a relationship with the halfelf chick from the other two related books in that harper series.

[Greenish]

Danilo something or other. The daft bard guy who is Khelben's nephew and in a relationship with the halfelf chick from the other two related books in that harper series.Danilo Thann, Song and Swords. Married the main protagonist of the series, Emo McEmopants Arilyn Moonblade.

[herrhauptmann]

Danilo Thann, Song and Swords. Married the main protagonist of the series, Emo McEmopants Arilyn Moonblade.

Yeah, don't think I'll be reading that series at any time soon either. Her series that I did read was bad enough.
Paul S. Kemp for the win.

[hamishspence]

The Power of Faerun rules aren't for becoming a Lord of Waterdeep- but for founding a Noble Family of Waterdeep.

Creating a new Waterdeep dynasty is very expensive and very time consuming.

However, the Masked Lords of Waterdeep aren't all from noble families.

[tahu88810]

The Power of Faerun rules aren't for becoming a Lord of Waterdeep- but for founding a Noble Family of Waterdeep.

Creating a new Waterdeep dynasty is very expensive and very time consuming.

However, the Masked Lords of Waterdeep aren't all from noble families.

Hrm...
Then how might one go about becoming a "Lord"? Or is this the sort of thing that I, as the DM, need to stop being so lazy for, and actually come up with on my own?

[Katana_Geldar]

Wasn't there one Lord that was unmasked and the public "face" of the Lords of Waterdeep?

[Alleran]

I had a huge long post written, but the damn forum ate it. Not happy. :smallfurious:

Wasn't there one Lord that was unmasked and the public "face" of the Lords of Waterdeep?
Piergeiron Paladinson is the Open Lord. There is always one Open Lord. Khelben Arunsun was a Lord, unmasked, and quit the job (he later took it up again).

To become a noble of Waterdeep:


As for 'junior' noble families: the 'youngest' of them were elevated in 1254 DR, and Waterdeep has actually 'lost' two noble families since then (Zoar and Gildeggh, "Outcast" [exiled] in 1273). There have been three noble families who ALMOST went extinct, and some evidence that nobles or Lords of Waterdeep quickly arranged some marriages to make no noble house disappeared -- both to avoid pressure from any ambitious merchants clamoring that "there's now room for me, isn't there?" and more importantly to avoid having dozens of mountebanks or serious individuals showing up for centuries to come, claiming to be the "long lost heir" of this or that noble house ("so where's my villa? what have you done with it? You OWE me for it!").

'Junior' in this sense really means that certain noble families play a sneering-on-others game (more often rooted in fancy than in reality) that their bloodlines are older and therefore better than those of other nobility. In truth, they're ALL jumped-up wealthy merchants, and some of them have even lost most of their wealth since being ennobled. It's akin to two ancient, toothless old men living in adjacent tumbledown shacks in a real-world village, but one of them looking down on the other because "his family wasn't originally from these parts."

Faced with an outsider, however ambitious, the nobles WILL form a united front, a fortress wall ("whatever happens, gotta keep the rabble out"). Again, you can MARRY into the nobility (especially if you happen to be good-looking OR very rich, of either gender), but although I quite understand that your player doesn't want to be a mere courtier, I'm afraid he or she is out of luck unless they can marry into, successfully dispose of and impersonate a particular noble, or successfully convince a particular noble family that s/he IS a long-lost relation (and s/he'd better be ready to withstand hired magical probings and various testings, and be pleasant to boot [because if unpleasant, a dagger in the ribs and a corner of earth in the deepest cellar will be MUCH easier than feeding and clothing and putting up with him/her].

My records tell me that the Phull and Zulpair families were the last to be ennobled, and they seem to have managed it by identical methods: 1. Succeed at trade enough to be staggeringly wealthy. 2. Buy up huge amounts of real estate in Waterdeep, especially in North Ward and Sea Ward. 3. Attend all the revels, actingly in a quiet, toady-like, subservient manner, and offer money to help with 'problems' discussed by grumbling nobles at said functions (as GIFTS and NOT loans). 4. VERY quietly loan monies to desperate noble houses. 5. Financially bail out/further the stated aims of a few Masked Lords ("cleaning up" firetrap warehouses in Dock Ward, having the sewers fixed, the harbor dredged, the city walls expanded and repaired, allowing the Lords to take credit rather than yourself. 6. Tell everyone, over and over again at revels (which you now attend dressing and speaking just as much like 'real nobles'), that you care deeply for "the good of Waterdeep" and "we must all think of the good of Waterdeep, so that it will be as great as it is now a thousand years hence." 7. When desperate noble houses discreetly approach you for even more money than you've given them before [in Step 4], willingly hand them more, and say, "This should be a gift, not a loan, but not being noble myself, I can't insult you like that. If we were both nobles, hey, all you'd have to do would be hint at the need, and this would always be just a gift." 8. Start marrying your daughters (made as beautiful as magic can make them, and trained in noble speech and deportment as well as money to pay retired or fired servants can achieve) into noble houses, and accompany them with staggeringly large dowries. 9. Hire spies to find out who just one or two Masked Lords are, and befriend them, financially helping their businesses. 10. Bribe some of the disaffected young wastrel nobles to verbally champion your family at revels as "acting like nobles should." 11. Bribe some servants, ditto [do both 10 and 11 through intermediaries, of course]. 12. Bankroll some young, disaffected nobles to pursue their dreams, however foolish or zany such schemes may be. Befriend THEM. 13. Watch for financial troubles among the nobles and try to repeat Step 4, aiming for a repeat of Step 7.

And, all this time, DON'T build a luxury villa of your own, DON'T openly challenge any noble, and NEVER openly ask to be a noble or pretend to be one.

Eventually, someone facing ruin will remember your Step 7 and start whispering that you should be ennobled. DO NOTHING (unless you can get real control over a few Masked Lords, and add their voices to the whispering). Let it happen.

As you can see, this takes KINGDOMS full of money (the Zulpairs found a remote island where monsters had devoured a dwarf clan and then perished for lack of food, leaving entire caverns full of already-mined rubies ownerless) and GENERATIONS of time, plus NOT MAKING A SINGLE MISTAKE. That's why it's never been done since. It worked for the Phulls and the Zulpairs (who have been scorned by many nobles ever since) because they practically bought up all of North Ward between them -- and then GAVE IT AWAY, property by property, to various nobles in winning their support for ennobling House Phull and House Zulpair.

So there's your template. Your ambitious player had better find some way of living for centuries and (like Khelben) somehow concealing the fact that he's actually the same guy (can't have any noble whispers of "he's really undead, he MUST be -- AND HE'S BEDDING MY DAUGHTER!"). Oh, yes, and becoming the most fabulously wealthy individual in all the Realms, of course.

Yes, that could be the basis of a long-running campaign. :}

The Heralds would automatically recognize anyone the Open Lord of Waterdeep treated as a noble. Again, they don't mess in "shoulds" or unfolding politics, but merely enforce the rules of how people use blazons.

And yes, you're right: the richest merchants in Waterdeep DID just get together (in the face of Raurlor's and then Ahghairon's authoritarianism) and say, "okay, we're special, and we get these special privileges, okay? In return, we'll support your rule instead of knifing all your agents and raising support against you and then fighting each other and destroying the whole damn city, okay?" And Ahghairon saw this as the perfect way to avoid the rise of another Raurlor, when he grew too old to stop it: these self-styled nobles would police each other as well as the "commoners" under them.
Becoming a Lord of Waterdeep (i.e. one of the rulers):


The easiest way would be to discover who one of the Masked Lords is, dispose of him/her, and impersonate him/her from then on. "Easiest," I said, not "easy." There are, of course, alignment problems with this approach for many PCs, and there's also a high risk of discovery (Watchful Order magists and fellow Lords mind-snooping, for one thing, plus all the pitfalls beyond mere changing face and form of trying to fool family, friends, business contacts, etc. of the Lord's "daytime identity" or 'true self').

A slower, harder way would be to serve the city with distinction in exposing plots against it, legal transgressions, and the like, and to do so for long enough, and well enough, that you "get noticed" by the authorities and yet manage to stay alive in the face of angry surviving swindlers and plotters. This will get you VERY thoroughly investigated by the City Guard and some of the city's "secret agents" reporting to Piergeiron or to Mirt, as well as by the Watchful Order and the Watch. If you're truly clean of personal scandal (not ambitions, just shady dealings and intentions), you MIGHT be covertly approached to become an agent yourself. If and only if being a 'public face' agent would be the most useful way you could serve (not likely; 'known' agents are numerous already, and the Lords really need more unknown fresh faces), you'd probably be taken on in the Palace with some sort of official position, and could gain status thereby.

Of course, this would STILL mean you got looked down on by 'old guard nobles,' because they even look down on Piergeiron and Khelben (behind their backs, of course). Courtiers are mere "toadies" and "jumped-up power-snatchers" in their books -- but then, so are 'junior' noble families, because some nobles spend their entire lives ranking people and playing "I'm haughtier than thou" games. So, elevated, yes, complete with airs to match if you want to assume them . . . but don't expect to get the full cordial "you're one of us" treatment from certain nobles (who would cut you dead even if you married their parents, siblings, or offspring).
Not simple at all, really.

[herrhauptmann]

The Power of Faerun rules aren't for becoming a Lord of Waterdeep- but for founding a Noble Family of Waterdeep.

Creating a new Waterdeep dynasty is very expensive and very time consuming.

However, the Masked Lords of Waterdeep aren't all from noble families.

Whoops, reading comprehension escapes me again. Or I forgot that 'Lord of Waterdeep' has a special meaning (Open/hidden) beyond just being a member of a noble family who is referred to as 'Lord.'

Looks like Alleran copied the entire section on becoming ennobled, founding a noble house. Gah, that must've taken a while.
So seems that your best bet is just to marry into one of the families. Then ensure that your spouse becomes head of the household. Gotta make all the elders die, or refuse their responsibilities: Older siblings, your mother/father-in-law, mother/father-in-laws older siblings, your grandmother/father-in-law, grandmother/father-in-laws older siblings. And after all that, ensure that your spouse will let you, the outsider run the family. Whether you rule openly or not is your choice.

[Amiel]

The best way of doing this is to firstly hire a doppelganger lackey, and invest in magic items that will conceal your thoughts, identity and alignment.
Mind control the doppelganger to assassinate any given Lord, and have it sift through said Lord's thoughts.
In doing so, as you replace the Lord's position, undue attention is not going to be directed towards you.
Finally, profit.

[Alleran]

Looks like Alleran copied the entire section on becoming ennobled, founding a noble house. Gah, that must've taken a while.
Actually, I got it from Ed Greenwood by way of Candlekeep.

[tahu88810]

Wow! Thanks, Alleran!
That's incredibly in-depth and helpful.