The Brass Legion - creating mooks that are effective against spellcasters

[Aharon]

So, in the last few days, there have been more threads than usual where people explained that BFC wizards are gods. (Looking at you, Eldariel and Koury :smalltongue:)

I don't disagree, but it made me feel a bit unprepared when I thought about it. I don't need it in my group yet, but eventually, they will optimize more than they do at the moment.

So what ways are there that make the casters tools less effective, but don't hurt the melee guys at the same time?

Things I thought of are
- perfect/good flight on indoor monsters (allows them to hover, thus invalidating Grease, Black Tentacles and similar conjurations, but they can't fly away so meleers still hurt them).
- high spell resistance/spell immunity (circumventable by SR:No spells/True Casting/Assay resistance, but eats up caster resources. Assay resistance may be a no-brainer at 20th level, but at 7th, it isn't that much).
- blindsight/mindsight/touchsight, to circumvent Glitterdust and similar stuff

What monsters can you think of that fulfill these conditions, but don't make the melee guys cry, too?

What other caster abilities should be accounted for?

[Shademan]

well some brass automatons. obviously. but maybe you should take this to the homebrew section? might have someone there be able to stat em out fer ya.

[awa]

Now are you looking to create a monster from scratch or take a normal monster and load it with templates and such to make it into a caster killer.

[Aharon]

Sorry, should have clarified that. While the first way would probably be faster, I was mainly interested in ways to use existing creatures and templates for this effect.

[NekoJoker]

Maybe using different sorts of golems? most of them have some sort of Magic Invulnerability

And those who don't force spellcasters to think creatively

About black tentacles, most of them are rather big and strong, so chances are high they may succed their grapple check

Grease may be a problem, but give them some sort of... adhesive to the ground... maybe spikes?

[Aran Banks]

What CR are we talking, here?

And, I've gotta say, the best weapon against a Wizard is a Wizard...

[Eldariel]

Outsiders are rather usable in general. All good saves, SR (albeit a rather inconsequential one), Greater Teleport at will, some respectable offense, flight (usually) and quite low HP/HD. Of course, GTele at will kinda presents a real problem for non-casters since they can simply choose to engage at huge distance (say 600' away); archers obviously have little trouble but melee types probably don't enjoy that. And if it's cramped quarters, they can simply shoot something in and teleport to other rooms. Still, GTele at will definitely helps against Wizards with Fire And Forget-types of tactics.

[Flickerdart]

At low levels, give Spellthief levels to critters with Pounce and a good number of natural attacks, then watch the fireworks.

[Dralnu]

It really just depends on your actual group. If the wizard is tossing out color spray / glitterdust / invisiblity / mirror image, you should go for blindsight and such. By level 5 he's probably flying, so you need ranged attacks or flight. Fogs can be beat by freedom of movement effects, or just flying around it. SoD's, get monsters with good saves -- outsiders are good as mentioned. If you don't mind building some NPCs, I highly suggest turning your melee mooks into ToB characters (warblade yawn). Doing concentration checks for your saves is pretty nutty, as is iron heart surge.

And again, as others mentioned, you can always fight fire with fire. Just be smart about it. Glitterdusting your party will often make them sit there doing nothing and not having fun. Making liberal use of stuff like dispel magic to counter a wizard's shenanigans every once in a while is much more acceptable.

[awa]

the problem is that many things good against wizards are even better against low tier characters a wizards has a hard time with most golems but a rouge or scout is useless

[Dralnu]

the problem is that many things good against wizards are even better against low tier characters a wizards has a hard time with most golems but a rouge or scout is useless

Let them conveniently find truedeath crystals before they come up against constructs. That solves the problem easily.

[Koury]

So, in the last few days, there have been more threads than usual where people explained that BFC wizards are gods. (Looking at you, Eldariel and Koury :smalltongue:) I did what now. :smalleek:

I just have fun doing the whole stratagy/counter-stratagy game, that's all. Wizards make playing that game very fun. :smallbiggrin:

For example!


Things I thought of are
- perfect/good flight on indoor monsters (allows them to hover, thus invalidating Grease, Black Tentacles and similar conjurations, but they can't fly away so meleers still hurt them). If the ceiling is 20 ft high or less, I can just cast EBT on the ceiling and force the flyers down to ground level (since they are 10' long). That makes the whole party happy.

- high spell resistance/spell immunity (circumventable by SR:No spells/True Casting/Assay resistance, but eats up caster resources. Assay resistance may be a no-brainer at 20th level, but at 7th, it isn't that much). Are we talking about current monsters? There is very little that has meaningful SR. But you can jack it up, of course. The only real answer to this is what you already mentioned, 'SR: No' spells.

- blindsight/mindsight/touchsight, to circumvent Glitterdust and similar stuff Solid Fog. Wall of X. Etc, etc.


What monsters can you think of that fulfill these conditions, but don't make the melee guys cry, too? Hmm, it's that last part that makes this tricky. Its hard to do things to devalue caster tricks without making both melee AND casters ineffectual against the monster.

[Zaq]

The trickiest part is not shutting down the wizard to an un-fun level. At anything below the very highest levels of optimization, a GM with an agenda can shut down a specific given wizard trick with only a little bit of fiat. You can't Slow him, he has Freedom of Movement; you can't Glitterdust him, he has blindsight. And so on.

The problem is that doing that isn't really fun for the player. Being told "no, your trick doesn't work at all and you wasted a standard action" is not fun at any level of play, especially if it happens more than once. It's one thing to be careless and forget that you can't just blind the ooze in front of you, or for the troll to have an unexpected couple of Swordsage levels and just Shadow Jaunt out of the Black Tentacles that you've created, but for every enemy to suddenly have "I ignore Glitterdust" as a newfound (Ex) ability is ham-fisted at best. The goal, in my mind, is not to simply short out the wizard's "I Win" buttons, but instead to turn "I Win" buttons into "I Contribute" buttons. It's totally reasonable to not want the wizard to trivialize everything you throw at him... but your buddy across the table playing the wizard still wants to be able to cast spells that alter the flow of the fight in a meaningful way, probably (if he's slinging around Slow and Glitterdust) by doing some debuffing or BfC. Simply making his favorite tactics useless doesn't improve the game (you'd be better off simply telling him "I don't like wizardly tactics, so maybe we'd all be happier if you played something else" so that he could actually do something) in the long run. A compromise is, in my mind, a better ideal.

Unfortunately, this is difficult in 3.5 D&D. Either a monster is blinded after a Glitterdust or they're not. Either they can get past the Wall of Force or they're stuck there until the party deigns to deal with them. Either they get caught in the Black Tentacles or they're safe. How, then, to let the wizard have fun without simply stomping everything?

Simply ramping up monster saves isn't a good way of doing it (the wizard will switch to no-save tactics, or turbocharge save DCs until you have to raise the saves again... and then, the monsters will still occasionally fail and be useless at the wrong times). SR is the same way... in one case, the wizard will simply find a work-around, and in another case, if they brute-force through it and cast until they break the SR, you've only delayed the problem by a couple rounds and frustrated your player in the meantime. Blanket immunity is simply inelegant when overused (and again, it's just plain more honest to tell the player "hey, can you maybe not use Greater Mirror Image so much? It's kind of broken" than to suddenly let all the monsters see through illusions, or give them weird new "make one attack against all targets in this square" abilities specifically designed to pierce Mirror Image, or whatever) and has a very high probability of the player ending up feeling picked on.

Now, in no sense am I saying that you should just let the player steamroll you. That's not fair to you and it's not fair to the other players. But it's important to remember that being made randomly ineffective is unlikely to actually be fun. I don't have a good answer for this. This is one of the biggest challenges a 3.5 DM faces. Giving monsters secondary tricks is a start, but rarely a finish ("OK, the minotaur is slowed, so he can't full attack you? He uses Comet Throw instead."). I don't really know what else can be done, though. Making a wizard's tricks not game-ending is a very good thing, but making a wizard's tricks useless is generally not cool.

[awa]

that's part of the problem with wizards they have so many abilities that if they work the monster is beaten and if they don't it does nothing. when a fighters trick works he removes some hit points when the wizards force cage cloud kill combo works the fight is over.

[Coidzor]

Well, that leaves the question of A. altering spells to have no SoLs or B. altering the things your party is fighting to have workarounds in enough cases to matter without being so many cases that it breaks verisimilitude. Or, of course, C. both.

And with B. you have the two paths of i. working within the ruleset as published and ii. homebrewing.

We're currently investigating subset i. of B.

Unfortunately I can't think of anything to contribute offhand as of now, but I do hope this thread lasts and comes up with something interesting, as it seems to hold some promise or at least promise of finding some constructive thought and work that's been done before.

[Pechvarry]

The problem is that doing that isn't really fun for the player. Being told "no, your trick doesn't work at all and you wasted a standard action" is not fun at any level of play, especially if it happens more than once.

Just a random aside: this is the exact problem with melee in 3.5 coming up against casters. In order to ruin a melee's day, be a mage. And in order to ruin a mage's day, be a DM.

[awa]

low power grapple's are good at low level something strong enough to give the low strength wizard a lot of trouble but which the fighter can defeat reliable and the average attack can beat occasionally. at high levels this will of course be ineffective.

one thing i have found that works well is long dungeons with lots of weak enemies spread out with traps in between and potions of cure hidden inside the lair.

the lots of small encounters mean the wizard cant afford to nova on every individual orc warrior. traps keep the wizard from trying to rush the dungeon and maintain his buffs. the potions keep the fighters in the game but the wizards actually need to conserve their power so they have something left when they meet the dungeons boss.

this assumes a relatively low to mid level party which lacks excessive cheese

[Reynard]

Just a random aside: this is the exact problem with melee in 3.5 coming up against casters. In order to ruin a melee's day, be a mage. And in order to ruin a mage's day, be a DM.

Except there's no fiat there, that's just how the screwed the balance of the system is.

[Gametime]

One possibility is a severe reduction in duration on some of the nastier spells. Reducing Glitterdust's blindness to one round, for example, leaves it as still useful for pointing out invisible foes and a decent short debuff.

At that point, though, we're well into the realm of houserules and there are probably more elegant solutions to be had, anyway.

[FelixG]

Give your golems little turrets of dispel magic (or greater) as an EX that only can activate if they are not currently engaged in melee and can only activate against spells targeting or effecting it

Force the casters to support their meatbags and the meatbags make sure the casters stay safe.

then the golems can still get nuked but only if they are distracted by their friendly meat monkeys

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay.. lets see...

First give them magic immunity. That takes care of all the SR: Yes spells.

Then, give them high grapple checks, ways to disrupt spellcasting within a grapple, a high dex and touch AC, a large number of natural weapons, pounce, a good amount of elemental resistance to all FIVE elements, a large number of natural attacks and a way to use more than one of those as a standard action OTHER than in a charge, a very large amount of sight modes (see invisibility, blindsight, blindsense, darkvision, low light vision, continuous detect magic, scent, lots and lots of effects that are NOT sight based, etc.) Give them a force based ranged attack based on a scaled down (in damage) Orb of Force that effects things on the etherial plane, give them ways to do a dispel magic as a swift action, have them always be hovering, give them some limited form of flight, ways to cause Silence effects... uhhh... did I miss anything?

[Aharon]

@NekoJoker
In fact, I thought about using the half-golem template for the Magic Immunity. It lets the monsters keep their INT, so I don't have to play them as dumb automatons. Out of curiosity, does the kind of spikes you talk about exist in any sourcebook?

@Aran Banks
I don't expect it to start to matter in the current campaign, but it will end soon and the players learned a lot over the course of it, so I basically search advice for all CRs

@Eldariel
Thanks for the tip. I was maybe a bit too cautious with using outsiders, because I nearly got a TPK using a Bar-Igura. Definitely something to use on better optimized groups.

@Flickerdart
Thanks for the tip. I only knew Spellthiefs for the CL-trick, but didn't bother looking at them closer at the time.

@Dralnu
Dispel Magic. Noted :smallsmile:

@Koury
=> EBT: Wow, that's a creative use of the spell. Because of the wording (These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot) I never thought that was possible.

@Zaq
Wow, you put a lot of thought into the matter. Many Thanks! To clarify, my intention wasn't to make up new abilities, but use the existing ones effectively. Your advice - adding secondary tricks - is sound, and I haven't used it extensively till now. I'll try that :smallsmile:

@Coidzor
Yes, pretty much. Let's see what people come up with. One thing I found myself in the meantime was the Monster of Legacy in the Weapons of Legacy book. Low CR-increase, some useful options. It's no end-all, but it's a way to add a bit of power to existing monsters that might be hard to come by in other ways. I'm AFB right now, but one of the things you can add, IIRC, is Dispel Magic.

@awa
=> Many encounters: Sounds good, but can only be done so often. It feels kind of strange if every adventure has a time limit - and if there isn't one, the players can just rest (They already found out how useful rope trick et. al. are).

@Gametime
I hope some of these more elegant ways are mentioned in this thread in the future :smallsmile:

@FelixG
Heh, without homebrew, this may be done by adding spell clocks to the golems. But if I use them, it's fair game for my players to use them, and I don't want them to discover Sofawall's Cube :smalltongue:

@Gavinfoxx
Uhm... ways they are still bothered by melee guys? :smalltongue:

@all
Many thanks for your contributions. I got many new insights and think I will be better prepared than I was before :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

@Gavinfoxx
Uhm... ways they are still bothered by melee guys? :smalltongue:


Uh... why would anything designed to fight Wizards be particularly vulnerable to melee? At the very least, they need to be able to deal fairly well with a wizard who summons a bunch of things and then self buffs lots of melee buffs and shapechanges into something badass and fights that way... Which Wizards can do pretty well starting at level 3 or so... Oh yes, I forgot, give them reach where they can threaten with reach and in melee too. Maybe make them Large? What CR per creature are you trying to make them?

Oh yes I forgot, here are some more things:

Blindsense
Blindsight
Darkvision (from construct, increase the range though)
Low Light Vision (increase to the greater version)
Evasion
Mettle
Freedom of Movement / ability to get out of a grapple or entangle or something, maybe limited to a few rounds a day, total?
Immunity to Daze, dazzle (this isn't in the construct immunities)
All those numerous construct immunities!
Fast Healing
Powerful Build / Reach
Scent
Uncanny Dodge
High Touch AC
Improved Grab
Pounce
Rend

Uhh... I'd get a huuuge list of books that have Golems in them, and look at the various stats from different Golems, and crib stuff and abilities from them. Here's a big list of Golems that can be made from the PC side of the table from all over:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=177.0

[Drogorn]

I'd say start with one of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psionKiller.htm) and add templates and magic items from there.

[Frosty]

I find that the trick is to throw a LOT of monsters at them and reduce the exp for each monster. Let their Glitterdusts and SoDs work. They should work great. Now that they've disabled the first 10 monsters, there's still 30 coming.

Basically, ramp up the Encounter Level by ramping up the number, and have the masses target the casters mostly as to not overwhelm the others.

Then, the casters still get to use their stuff. They get to pwn legions of enemies, and there's still enough left over for the others to deal with.

Alternative use the Mob rules from Citiscape and DMG2. Those do pretty well against many effects.

[Jack_Simth]

Fun one to throw at your players:
Realize that the Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType), such as Golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), are Crafted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#craftConstruct) just like magic items, and so can use the Intelligent Item Creation Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm)... which also technically grants them skills and feats.

Picture a Greater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem) with Heavy Armor Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain), Blind-Fight, a few feats from the mage-bane line, Full Plate, a Spiked Chain, and a few useful magic items that it uses intelligently (like, say, a Vest of Resistance (Magic Item Compendium), and Wings of Flying, and a Belt of Giant Strength+6), activating in close-quarters... due to being really, really still and making use of a Ring of Invisibility. Oh yes, and it's got a few intelligent item powers, just for kicks.

He's only got one AoO... which he reserves for the casters (which WILL be within reach when he attacks... he's a guardian, and is stationed in the middle of a room that's exactly the right size for him to threaten everything). Invisible so you can't see him; nonmoving construct, so you can't hear him until he swings. Unless you've permanencied See Invisibility or some such, he goes first in the surprise round.

[Ormur]

I've had a similar problem as a DM and I've been a similar problem as a player. The latter was unfortunately solved by the melee character quitting (not out of frustration though and we weren't intentionally being show-stealing casters). I know our DM basically designed encounters so that there was someone for the melee type to fight every time, that's something you can try to achieve, not neutralizing the caster but giving the party multiple targets some of which it makes more sense for the melee type to attack.

Unfortunately I'm not as experiences with D&D as that DM so I sometimes notice that the caster in my party overshadows the melee types. Fortunately the power differential is less (tier 3 and 2, versus tier 4 and 1) but the optimization level also higher (Iajitsu factotums and wings of flurry versus non-pounce barbs and fireballs).

I've used rogues as the caster is still quite fond of blasting with wings of flurry so the evasion often leaves them alive for the others. Constructs are no good since both melee types make liberal use of sneak attacks. Where blasting is less effective the caster still has quite a few save or loose spells.

[Tehnar]

Use outsider's.

At low levels there is nothing worse for a spellcaster then a couple of babaus.

At higher levels, use stronger outsiders, or simply advance effective low level ones.

[Icewraith]

Use multiple opponents with varying saves and abilities when possible, and use sets of opponents with different abilities that (preferably) attack at different ranges.

So if you want low-level undead, have zombies and skeletons in melee and then some skeleton archers to worry everyone. Throw a first level bard into the orc warband. Don't use one big strong ugly monster use two slightly less big ugly monsters.

[Hague]

Awakened Iron Golem Spellthief/Lion Totem Barbarian?