Just rewatched the Spider-man trilogy...

[Ichneumon]

Of course there are a lot of things that don't make sense and a lot of things worth complaining about (especially on Spider-man 3), I do have one big complaint after having watched them all in a marathon-like way:

Harry Osborn's choices don't make any sense.

1. In the first movie his father dies and at the end of the movie he is convinced Spider-man killed him and he vows to make Spider-man pay. He doesn't know his father was insane and killed himself, nor does he know that Spider-man is actually the person he trusts the most: Peter Parker. He seems to like Peter even more so than his dad and the only thing that stands between them is the fact that they both love the same woman: Mary Jane. Harry is envious of the love that grows that between them.

2. In the second movie he learns that Peter is Spider-man. Peter tells him he didn't kill his father, but Harry doesn't believe him. At the end of the movie, he discovers his father was the Green Goblin.

Now, you have to understand the full magnitude of this. Harry knows the Green Goblin as the freak who tried to blow up both him and the love of his life, Marry Jane, the last one for a total of like 3 times in first movie. He only threatened/attacked/killed a large number of other people etc.

Now, instead of starting to doubt his father's goodness and start to wonder whether Peter, his best friend, was right after all, he uses his father's weapons to try to destroy Spider-man and when that doesn't work, he tries to destroy him emotionally by using MARY JANE and violently forcing her to lie to Peter and tell him she doesn't love him anymore.

All of his actions in Spider-man 3 are based on his hatred for Peter for taking his girlfriend AND his hatred for Spider-man for killing his father combined. At the end of the second movie, he really has no reason at all to stay loyal to his father after finding out he was a murdering psychopath and it really makes no sense to try to punish Peter by making Mary Jane unhappy, the woman Harry himself loves.:smallmad:

[Haruki-kun]

Not much makes sense in the third movie. They just wanted Harry to go after Peter and the Green Goblin's weapons allowed him to do so. whether it made sense or not was a moot point to the writers, really.

IMHO, 1 and 2 are pretty good. 3 is sub-par.

[Kris Strife]

You forgot something. Mary Jane lies to Peter, basically revealing that she's two timing him (while they're engaged, iirc) with his best friend, and Peter is mad out to be the bad guy for being kind of an ass about it.

Admittedly, there's a lot of other issues with the third movie but that one made me go :smallannoyed:

[Ichneumon]

I just don't get it, the first two movies were kinda very good, but it seemed the writers thought they had to include everything into the third movie.

They could've left out Venom, while still introducing the black suit and Eddy, leaving Venom as the logical villain for a possible fourth movie, maybe Venom could be created in the last scene or so to create expectations etc.

If they'd done that, they would've had more time to explore the rest of the plot without losing any of the other story elements.

It would even have made some sense if at the end of the movie Harry teamed up with Sandman to fight and destroy Spider-man, only to undergo a change of heart when Mary Jane comes to save Peter, who's ass would be kicked by both of them. MJ would convince Harry to be "one of the good guys" again, giving some kind of speech mentioning God, Love, Friendship, Trust, Justice or anything like that. That would teach Peter a lesson on being arrogant and only thinking of himself, would give MJ the feelings of being useful she deserves after having felt worthless the entire 3rd movie and would give Harry a posibility to die heroically killing Sandman.

[thegurullamen]

I just don't get it, the first two movies were kinda very good, but it seemed the writers thought they had to include everything into the third movie.

They could've left out Venom, while still introducing the black suit and Eddy, leaving Venom as the logical villain for a possible fourth movie, maybe Venom could be created in the last scene or so to create expectations etc.

If they'd done that, they would've had more time to explore the rest of the plot without losing any of the other story elements.

Or the execs would have fired Raimi and forced Brett Ratner to make the fourth movie in nine months.

Frankly, I think they should have left out Sandman. He wasn't integral to the plot in any way and they knew it, so they shoehorned in that asspull about him being Uncle Ben's real killer. It would have been far better to just have Venom; he could have exacerbated problems left over from the first two movies via lower inhibitions/enhanced impulsiveness on the part of the host. And there's a lot of potential there. From a meta perspective, it's a better way to finish out a trilogy than that cliche about the past not being at rest and revealing a first chapter assumption as being false. From a story-telling perspective, it opens up every previous intercharacter conflict, no matter how subtle, for a proper follow-up and conclusion.

[Starbuck_II]

Agreed, number 3 had many troubles to it.
They could redo it (they did redo the Hulk) I guess.

[TheThan]

First of the Osborn family is not entirely stable. So its reasonable to assume that Harry is so screwed up emotionally that the though that his father could actually be a bad guy may not even enter into his thoughts.

I imagine it being something along the lines of this:

“I love my father but spiderman took him away from me! HATE”
“I love Mary Jane but Peter too her away from me! HATE”
“Spiderman and peter Parker are the same! HATE HATE HATE!”

[MammonAzrael]

Yeah, the third movie makes no sense. But I think Harry's illogical decisions are actually in the minor catagory of things that should bug you. as TheThan pointed out, the Osborns are not know for their mental stability. In fact Harry "loosing it" is pretty much an integral part of his character in every Spider-Man universe.

[Mewtarthio]

Harry's made quite a big emotional investment in that whole "My father was a good person who was brutally murdered by the evil Spider-Man" reality. Discovering that his father was the Green Goblin was probably a huge bit of cognitive dissonance, so you can't very well expect him to think rationally.

In fact, it's pretty unrealistic that all it took to break that hatred was learning how his father died by one of his own weapons. I mean, that doesn't exactly mean Spider-Man still didn't kill him (and, as we saw in the first movie, Spider-Man did cause Norman's death, albeit unintentionally).

[SmartAlec]

Subjecting himself to the strength-enhancing formula may have unhinged Harry a little. Why he decided to go ahead and take it, though, I'm not sure. He was already a little out-of-balance - hallucinating his father in a mirror, for example.

The thing about the Black Suit is that there needs to be a threat for Spidey to fight at the time. He has to choose between the powers of the suit that'll help him in battle, and giving it up and maybe getting his butt kicked, but being less of a jerk. Marko served as that threat in the third movie, though I agree that Harry Osbourne was likely a strong enough villain to carry the movie. Criminally wasted, in fact.

[Haruki-kun]

I just don't get it, the first two movies were kinda very good, but it seemed the writers thought they had to include everything into the third movie.

They could've left out Venom, while still introducing the black suit and Eddy, leaving Venom as the logical villain for a possible fourth movie, maybe Venom could be created in the last scene or so to create expectations etc.


Warning. This is a link to TV Tropes. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExecutiveMeddling)

According to TV Tropes, Venom wasn't supposed to be in the movie in the first place. But the executives insisted that he had to be in it because he was a fan favorite. Since Venom was thrown in at the last minute, at some parts it doesn't make sense.

[Makensha]

They could redo it (they did redo the Hulk) I guess.

They Are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_(film_series)#Spider-Man_reboot_.282012.29)

We'll see how this goes.

[TheThan]

Ok so I realized I didn’t finish what I was saying in the above. So I’m going to finish it.

Secondly, I have bigger complaints about the movies other than the Osborns. While nearly all the characters were great (loved J. Jonah Jameson for instance). I don’t think they really got peter and Mary Jane right.

I remember in the comics, MJ was completely out of Peter’s league. She was drop-dead gorgeous, outgoing, popular and very, very self-confidant. In the movies, she is the opposite of this; in fact, I would go so far to say that she has a confidence issue.

I remember Peter being very mature despite his youth. Whenever his life got screwed up or he was troubled by something, he was able to work through it and save the day. He didn’t brood, didn’t go crazy or end or turn all emo and cry about it. Sure hey may have had to turn to friends and family (hell in the cartoon he talked things out to a stone gargoyle perched on top of a building). But ultimately he was able to cope with everything that life threw at him, and come out ok most of the time.

The Peter Parker I saw in the movies really didn’t give me that feeling of maturity. It’s really noticeable in 3, when he gets the venom suit. He turns very emo, changing his hair and generally just being completely out of character. In fact, it was so out of character from what I knew that it was a struggle to actually watch it through.


Also, why on earth are they rebooting things that are not even 10 years old. I mean, give the movies the chance to age a bit before redoing them. or are they so starved for new material that they can’t help to reboot “new” franchises before they get the chance to get “old”.

[Prime32]

Also, why on earth are they rebooting things that are not even 10 years old. I mean, give the movies the chance to age a bit before redoing them. or are they so starved for new material that they can’t help to reboot “new” franchises before they get the chance to get “old”.I think they wanted to "do things properly this time". Shame Spidey can't be in the same continuity as the other Marvel movies.

[Grumman]

I think they wanted to "do things properly this time". Shame Spidey can't be in the same continuity as the other Marvel movies.
If they wanted to "do things properly this time", I would not have suggested regressing him back to high school. I like Spider-Man. I don't like Peter Parker: Life's *****.

[Jaros]

The Peter Parker I saw in the movies really didn’t give me that feeling of maturity. It’s really noticeable in 3, when he gets the venom suit. He turns very emo, changing his hair and generally just being completely out of character. In fact, it was so out of character from what I knew that it was a struggle to actually watch it through.

I have only seen Spider-Man 3 the once (back when it was in cinemas) but I feel the need to bring up a point made by Mike J in a short review of the film that made me at least cut this part fo the film a little slack: Peter is essentially being twisted and manipulated by an evil entity from outer space, and still the most evil he can manage is being kind of a jerk. If you look at it like that it really speaks volumes about his character.

[Kris Strife]

I mean, that doesn't exactly mean Spider-Man still didn't kill him (and, as we saw in the first movie, Spider-Man did cause Norman's death, albeit unintentionally).

You mean by dodging an attack that probably would have killed them both anyways? :smallconfused:

[VanBuren]

I have only seen Spider-Man 3 the once (back when it was in cinemas) but I feel the need to bring up a point made by Mike J in a short review of the film that made me at least cut this part fo the film a little slack: Peter is essentially being twisted and manipulated by an evil entity from outer space, and still the most evil he can manage is being kind of a ****. If you look at it like that it really speaks volumes about his character.

Sorta like the Superman movie where he "turns evil", and the most nefarious thing he does is straighten the Leaning Tower of Piza.

[cdstephens]

I think they wanted to "do things properly this time". Shame Spidey can't be in the same continuity as the other Marvel movies.

They should do the reboot so he is.

[CorrTerek]

I have only seen Spider-Man 3 the once (back when it was in cinemas) but I feel the need to bring up a point made by Mike J in a short review of the film that made me at least cut this part fo the film a little slack: Peter is essentially being twisted and manipulated by an evil entity from outer space, and still the most evil he can manage is being kind of a jerk. If you look at it like that it really speaks volumes about his character.

I'm inclined to agree here. As for the reboot, I'm of two minds on it. On the one hand, Old!Spider-Man has two good movies under his belt, and the series isn't even ten years old. On the other hand, Reboot!Spider-Man has the advantage of movie rights being owned completely by Marvel, which means that he could appear in crossover movies like, say, the Avengers movie (or, more likely, its sequel).

EDIT: After reading further, it appears Sony would still hold the rights to Spider-man movies. This stinks.

[TheThan]

I’ve always been of the opinion that spiderman works best alone. When you throw him in a group, it’s easy for him to get lost in the background. I mean, he doesn’t really have any leadership qualities, the only power he has that you could “combo” with someone is his webbing. besides I like to believe he looks upon his powers is his burden or responsibility, he's not going to let someone else carry that torch for him, since its his, and his alone.

About the best you can do is a two-hero team up. Spiderman + captain America for instance. Though it would be kind of cool to see him webslinging around in the backdrop of New York as a cameo appearance. I can see him being in the universe, but not actually part of what’s going on.

[Dr.Epic]

2. In the second movie he learns that Peter is Spider-man. Peter tells him he didn't kill his father, but Harry doesn't believe him. At the end of the movie, he discovers his father was the Green Goblin.

Yeah, that never made sense his choices for being evil then good. Not to mention, how did he see his father's reflection in the mirror at the end of the second. And how did the butler know all that stuff and no one else did? He had a chance to examine the body and analyze the the blades that killed him but cops and forensics scientists couldn't?

And another I never got why did Peter's power just magically go away only to come back when he needed them? Even in the realm of deus ex machinas, why would his powers only go away once and then come back when he really needed them, and then his powers never act weird again?

[VanBuren]

Yeah, that never made sense his choices for being evil then good. Not to mention, how did he see his father's reflection in the mirror at the end of the second. And how did the butler know all that stuff and no one else did? He had a chance to examine the body and analyze the the blades that killed him but cops and forensics scientists couldn't?

Word Of God is that cut content clarified that the butler was a hallucination of his subconscious, so the butler confessing to Harry was really just Harry admitting the truth to himself.

[Dr.Epic]

Word Of God is that cut content clarified that the butler was a hallucination of his subconscious, so the butler confessing to Harry was really just Harry admitting the truth to himself.

Okay, I can get the hallucinations even if that if kind of dumb and I remember a scene where Harry talks to the butler and Peter is around (Peter didn't question why he was talking to no one)? Also, the hallucinations, I always thought that was a cause of the steroids that he and his father took. His mental state was so bad that he saw his father in the mirror like five minutes after Peter left?

[cdstephens]

Okay, I can get the hallucinations even if that if kind of dumb and I remember a scene where Harry talks to the butler and Peter is around (Peter didn't question why he was talking to no one)? Also, the hallucinations, I always thought that was a cause of the steroids that he and his father took. His mental state was so bad that he saw his father in the mirror like five minutes after Peter left?

So I'm guessing you DON'T see your father in the mirror.

Weirdo.

[Prime32]

They should do the reboot so he is.Can't. Sony owns the film rights to Spider-Man, Marvel Films owns the others.

And as for the "seeing his father" thing, some versions of the "Son of the Goblin" storyline imply that his father really was contacting him somehow, possibly from beyond the grave. IIRC, in the original version Harry was taking drugs at the time (I know he took drugs at some point, but I can't remember if it was the first or second time he became GG2).

Spider-Man 3 missed out on the potential awesomeness of having Harry assume the Green Goblin identity offscreen and use his father's suit though. In the animated series it went something like...

Spider-Man: *punching Goblin* "I don't know what rock you crawled out from under, but YOU'LL PAY FOR WHAT DID TO HARRY! YOU'LL PAY, OSB-" *pulls off Goblin's mask* "Harry?!!"

[thubby]

the "problem" with the goblins derives from the source material. harry's reaction more or less matches his comic counterpart.

i always chalked it up to unconditional love. it's not always a good thing people

[ThePhantasm]

My understanding in the second film was that Harry saw that his father was the goblin and just snapped. The double blow (Peter is Spidey, father is goblin) caused him to see his father in the mirror, etc. He went crazy.

The stupid part of the 3rd film is that they don't really treat him as crazy... he is off-and-on crazy depending on whether someone beat him on the head or cried to him about their girlfriend at the moment. Granted, crazy Norman was able to act somewhat uncrazy, but with Harry they act like his butler can simply persuade him back to sanity.

[Starbuck_II]

Spider-Man 3 missed out on the potential awesomeness of having Harry assume the Green Goblin identity offscreen and use his father's suit though. In the animated series it went something like...

Yeah, the animated version rocked.

[SmartAlec]

And another I never got why did Peter's power just magically go away only to come back when he needed them? Even in the realm of deus ex machinas, why would his powers only go away once and then come back when he really needed them, and then his powers never act weird again?

The problem with Peter's powers was psychological or psychosomatic. He was being Spider-man at the cost of his life as Peter Parker - he couldn't hold a job, couldn't date Mary-Jane without looking like an ass, his schoolwork was suffering. He began to resent being Spider-man, and somehow, that screwed up his powers.

This mental block went away once Doc Ock kidnapped Mary-Jane, as at that point his wishes (save Mary-Jane) and his powers (need them to save Mary-Jane) were in accord. And afterward, when she knows the truth, the pressure on Peter of being denied everything he wants because of Spider-man is much less.

[Lord Loss]

A pity Sam Raimi isn't the guy doing the reboot, he's a favorite director of mine and he did a superb job on the original first two movies.

[Hawriel]

First of the Osborn family is not entirely stable. So its reasonable to assume that Harry is so screwed up emotionally that the though that his father could actually be a bad guy may not even enter into his thoughts.

I imagine it being something along the lines of this:

“I love my father but spiderman took him away from me! HATE”
“I love Mary Jane but Peter too her away from me! HATE”
“Spiderman and peter Parker are the same! HATE HATE HATE!”

Forgot one.

My overly critical father who has never been proud of any thing I did. Has never shown me fatherly love. Has in just a few short weeks of meating my best friend shown him more of this to him than he ever did to me. Jealousy, hate rath.

This is why harry was dating MJ. Not that he loved her. It was because a part of him wanted to hurt Peter. He started dating her after his father showed acceptence of Peter wile once again critisising Harry.

[JonestheSpy]

Forgot one.

My overly critical father who has never been proud of any thing I did. Has never shown me fatherly love. Has in just a few short weeks of meating my best friend shown him more of this to him than he ever did to me. Jealousy, hate rath.

This is why harry was dating MJ. Not that he loved her. It was because a part of him wanted to hurt Peter. He started dating her after his father showed acceptence of Peter wile once again critisising Harry.

Don't Forget:

My overly critical father apologized for his past behavior, showed real affection, and said he wanted to make it up to me - and then Spider-Man killed him.

[VanBuren]

Don't Forget:

My overly critical father apologized for his past behavior, showed real affection, and said he wanted to make it up to me - and then Spider-Man killed him.

"And anyway, my father might be hard on me, but it's just because his expectations are high. And how can I blame him? He's a powerful man who has accomplished so much. If I can be half the man he was, I'll be happy."

[DranWork]

Then there's also the whole

"waaaaaaaaaH Daddy!" motivation to him.

[Psyren]

I am fully on board with all the disappointment over Venom and Goblin in the 3rd movie but I haven't seen much commentary on Sandman. He was just horribad. And at the end, he just blows away, conveniently forgetting his sick daughter! WTF?

[CorrTerek]

I am fully on board with all the disappointment over Venom and Goblin in the 3rd movie but I haven't seen much commentary on Sandman. He was just horribad. And at the end, he just blows away, conveniently forgetting his sick daughter! WTF?

I dunno, Sandman didn't bother me very much. Wasn't he pretty much a crook trying to go straight in the comics?

And, well, he's blown away on the wind before. Doesn't mean he's gone. Maybe he decided to find a way to use his powers to earn the money he needed.

[Seraph]

I think they wanted to "Keep the rights to the Juicy, Juicy cash cow from returning to Marvel and being made by their in-house studio."


fixed that one for you.

[Dr.Epic]

The problem with Peter's powers was psychological or psychosomatic. He was being Spider-man at the cost of his life as Peter Parker - he couldn't hold a job, couldn't date Mary-Jane without looking like an ass, his schoolwork was suffering. He began to resent being Spider-man, and somehow, that screwed up his powers.

This mental block went away once Doc Ock kidnapped Mary-Jane, as at that point his wishes (save Mary-Jane) and his powers (need them to save Mary-Jane) were in accord. And afterward, when she knows the truth, the pressure on Peter of being denied everything he wants because of Spider-man is much less.

So it was basically the power of love?:smallannoyed:

[VanBuren]

So it was basically the power of love?:smallannoyed:

More specifically, it was instinct. Basically, when she got kidnapped, adrenaline kicked in and Peter didn't have a chance to evaluate his doubt and self-angst. In that moment, he needed his power, and so his instinct kicked in and removed his mental block.

[kpenguin]

So it was basically the power of love?:smallannoyed:

Is... there... something wrong with the power of love?

[Dr.Epic]

More specifically, it was instinct. Basically, when she got kidnapped, adrenaline kicked in and Peter didn't have a chance to evaluate his doubt and self-angst. In that moment, he needed his power, and so his instinct kicked in and removed his mental block.

So, basically it was the power of love?:smallconfused:


Is... there... something wrong with the power of love?

Other than it's cliched to say that was the secret power and it has little to no real power to really determine such things. Besides, what kind of lame power is heart love anyway?

[VanBuren]

So, basically it was the power of love?:smallconfused:

Sorta. I mean, it was really the situation as a whole, with the car being thrown and everything. Essentially the stress of the situation forced his body to naturally tap into his abilities and overcome his mental block.

Fight or flight, basically.

[Dr.Epic]

Sorta. I mean, it was really the situation as a whole, with the car being thrown and everything. Essentially the stress of the situation forced his body to naturally tap into his abilities and overcome his mental block.

Fight or flight, basically.

But so quickly? Not to mention, wouldn't he still be lacking his powers for at least a little bit longer? And why didn't he lose them in the first when Harry and MJ were dating? And why didn't he lose them in the third when she dumped him? There'd have to be other times when he'd just lose them if it worked like that.

[VanBuren]

But so quickly? Not to mention, wouldn't he still be lacking his powers for at least a little bit longer?

I don't see why. If the only reason they were gone was because he was blocking them, then I don't see why they wouldn't snap back.


And why didn't he lose them in the first when Harry and MJ were dating? And why didn't he lose them in the third when she dumped him? There'd have to be other times when he'd just lose them if it worked like that.

He hadn't reached critical angst mass in the first. He only started losing them when his life started falling apart in the second one. By the third, It seems like he's balanced out a bit more that it wouldn't happen again.

[TheThan]

IIRC Spiderman came to terms with his powers along time ago. Sure being spider man messes up his life from time to time, but he’s always been able to deal with it. His powers have been both a blessing and a curse and I think somewhere along the line, he realizes it and accepts it.

I think they tried to show this in the movies but failed to pull it off well.

[Serpentine]

They could've left out Venom, while still introducing the black suit and Eddy, leaving Venom as the logical villain for a possible fourth movie, maybe Venom could be created in the last scene or so to create expectations etc.

If they'd done that, they would've had more time to explore the rest of the plot without losing any of the other story elements.

It would even have made some sense if at the end of the movie Harry teamed up with Sandman to fight and destroy Spider-man, only to undergo a change of heart when Mary Jane comes to save Peter, who's ass would be kicked by both of them. MJ would convince Harry to be "one of the good guys" again, giving some kind of speech mentioning God, Love, Friendship, Trust, Justice or anything like that. That would teach Peter a lesson on being arrogant and only thinking of himself, would give MJ the feelings of being useful she deserves after having felt worthless the entire 3rd movie and would give Harry a posibility to die heroically killing Sandman.
Frankly, I think they should have left out Sandman. He wasn't integral to the plot in any way and they knew it, so they shoehorned in that asspull about him being Uncle Ben's real killer.Nope, other way round, Because of this:

According to TV Tropes, Venom wasn't supposed to be in the movie in the first place. But the executives insisted that he had to be in it because he was a fan favorite. Since Venom was thrown in at the last minute, at some parts it doesn't make sense.The writers (Remi?) said, "We have this great story to tell in the Sandman character." The Powers That Be said, "Well, the Sandman is obscure and not as popular as, say, this Venom character. Put Venom in it, because it'll make more money that way. What, you've already got a perfectly good Sandman storyline? Too bad. Put Venom in."
So yeah. The Sandman, who from what I understand had a really interesting story going on, was shoved to the side to make room for Venom.
Now, I like Venom - the movie version (except for Emo-Man) and (what I've heard of) the comic version. But it would've been nice to have a chance to really like Sandman.

Peter is essentially being twisted and manipulated by an evil entity from outer space, and still the most evil he can manage is being kind of a jerk. If you look at it like that it really speaks volumes about his character.Aww, the Symbiot's not so bad :smallfrown: He's just misunderstood...

And another I never got why did Peter's power just magically go away only to come back when he needed them? Even in the realm of deus ex machinas, why would his powers only go away once and then come back when he really needed them, and then his powers never act weird again?It wasn't magic, it was biology. Stress-induced physiological reactions. There's a reason there was a significant amount of impotence-innuendo.
The conflict between Being Spiderman and Being Peter Parker caused a massive amount of stress and psychological confusion. There are plenty of studies showing how huge the impact of stress on the body and mind can be. In Peter's case, it involved the (admittedly odd) loss of his spidey powers. At the climax, the needs of both Being Spiderman and Being Peter Parker aligned, the conflict was - at least temporarily - resolved, his stress levels went down (or, at least, took a different focus and/or were put to more useful purposes*), his mental state settled or focused, and the physiological effects of the stress subsided.
So, no, it wasn't "the power of love". It was "the power of psycho-physiology".

*Normally, some stress is good for animals: it puts them into fight-or-flight mode, makes them alert, gets them active, etc. In humans, our sources of stress are generally not from life-threatening circumstances, which makes our response to it useless in the modern context. This is what makes stress unhealthy for modern humans. In this situation, Peter Parker's useless human-stress was redirected into Spiderman's useful animal survival-stress.

I am fully on board with all the disappointment over Venom and Goblin in the 3rd movie but I haven't seen much commentary on Sandman. He was just horribad. And at the end, he just blows away, conveniently forgetting his sick daughter! WTF?What? :smallconfused: What indicates that he's forgotten his daughter? He's blowing away - and Spiderman's letting him go - for the sake of his daughter.

[VanBuren]

I always kinda figured he was letting himself not maintain shape, essentially dying, but I guess that works too.

[Serpentine]

Huh. That possibility never even occurred to me.
...
Naaaaaah.


Hey, anyone read any Sandman comics? I'd be interested to know what the original was like.

[VanBuren]

Huh. That possibility never even occurred to me.
...
Naaaaaah.


Hey, anyone read any Sandman comics? I'd be interested to know what the original was like.

Meh, everyone else was dying. It was the cool thing to do. That's why Peter lived.

[kpenguin]

Hey, anyone read any Sandman comics? I'd be interested to know what the original was like.

Are you talking about Spidey Sandman or Neil Gaiman's Sandman?

[Sholos]

Are you talking about Spidey Sandman or Neil Gaiman's Sandman?

Or Sandman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandman_%28Sandy_Hawkins%29)? Or Sandman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandman_%28Wesley_Dodds%29)?

[Dr.Epic]

It wasn't magic, it was biology. Stress-induced physiological reactions. There's a reason there was a significant amount of impotence-innuendo.
The conflict between Being Spiderman and Being Peter Parker caused a massive amount of stress and psychological confusion. There are plenty of studies showing how huge the impact of stress on the body and mind can be. In Peter's case, it involved the (admittedly odd) loss of his spidey powers. At the climax, the needs of both Being Spiderman and Being Peter Parker aligned, the conflict was - at least temporarily - resolved, his stress levels went down (or, at least, took a different focus and/or were put to more useful purposes*), his mental state settled or focused, and the physiological effects of the stress subsided.
So, no, it wasn't "the power of love". It was "the power of psycho-physiology".

*Normally, some stress is good for animals: it puts them into fight-or-flight mode, makes them alert, gets them active, etc. In humans, our sources of stress are generally not from life-threatening circumstances, which makes our response to it useless in the modern context. This is what makes stress unhealthy for modern humans. In this situation, Peter Parker's useless human-stress was redirected into Spiderman's useful animal survival-stress.
What? :smallconfused: What indicates that he's forgotten his daughter? He's blowing away - and Spiderman's letting him go - for the sake of his daughter.

When I say "magically" I mean it as a metaphor for "bad story writing." Again, stress is the reason is powers went away? How does that make sense? Yes, I know you explained why, but he's a college student. He has more stress than he can handle. Based on that, his powers should vanish all together. What about his uncle dying? I think that's pretty stressful. And the girl he loves gets kidnapped? How is that not stressful? He can just pull it all together in like 3 seconds? If they want to justify that with stress fine, but look at all the stressful moments in his life and his powers just remain. It's more a bad subplot to fill two hours than anything else.

[VanBuren]

But he wasn't failing at everything in the first one. His life wasn't a complete trainwreck like it was in the sequel. And in the third one, it wasn't a trainwreck for such an extended period of time either.

[Serpentine]

Yes, I know you explained why, but he's a college student. He has more stress than he can handle. Based on that, his powers should vanish all together.College student is normal stress. That on its own isn't enough to do him in. But, college stress was a significant contributer to his ever-filling cup of stress which eventually did result in his power loss.

What about his uncle dying? I think that's pretty stressful.When his uncle died, he was able to do something about it: he chased the murderer, confronted him and (mostly accidentally) killed him. His stress was channeled and released in a useful (well, active) manner. It was stress he could act upon.

And the girl he loves gets kidnapped? How is that not stressful?Same thing. Girl he loves gets kidnapped? He pulls his costumes on and goes and rescues her. Active channeling of stress. Stress he can act on. Girl he loves has broken up with him leaving him heartbroken because he's dividing his attention between her and being a hero while he deals with the knowledge that his best friend wants to see his alter-ego dead and he can't tell him what really happened because he made a promise to someone he respected? Somewhat more difficult to deal with.

He can just pull it all together in like 3 seconds?The other day I almost felt like I was about to have a meltdown because of honours work stress. My heart rate was up, I felt sick, and there was no way I could concentrate on work. Then I had two chocolate bars and a deep breath, and I was fine. So no, I don't find it totally unbelievable.

If they want to justify that with stress fine, but look at all the stressful moments in his life and his powers just remain.It was the accumulation of stress and the lack of ability to actively deal with them that was the problem, not the mere existance of stress.

It's more a bad subplot to fill two hours than anything else.It was kinda weak.

[Dr.Epic]

But he wasn't failing at everything in the first one. His life wasn't a complete trainwreck like it was in the sequel. And in the third one, it wasn't a trainwreck for such an extended period of time either.

Explain it all you like, it's just bad story writing in my opinion. Having your girlfriend kidnapped and probably about to die? I'd be too stressed out to (as your put it) Spider-Man and Peter Parker. It just seemed like a pointless conflict created to insert drama that would resolve itself just when it was convenient.

[Psyren]

I dunno, Sandman didn't bother me very much. Wasn't he pretty much a crook trying to go straight in the comics?

And, well, he's blown away on the wind before. Doesn't mean he's gone. Maybe he decided to find a way to use his powers to earn the money he needed.

Maybe... but if the movie doesn't actually tell us that, it's just a dangling thread. We don't even know what happens to her after all the Mary Jane craziness.



What? :smallconfused: What indicates that he's forgotten his daughter? He's blowing away - and Spiderman's letting him go - for the sake of his daughter.

The fact that we never see or hear about her for the entire last half of the movie?

[Serpentine]

The fact that we never see or hear about her for the entire last half of the movie?For starters, I don't think that's entirely true. Didn't Sandman tell Spidey about it?
For seconds, just because the movie forgot about her - and her absence did bother me, too - doesn't mean he forgot about her.

[SmartAlec]

Explain it all you like, it's just bad story writing in my opinion. Having your girlfriend kidnapped and probably about to die? I'd be too stressed out to (as your put it) Spider-Man and Peter Parker. It just seemed like a pointless conflict created to insert drama that would resolve itself just when it was convenient.

Dunno about pointless. As far as I can see, Peter trying to live with being Spider-man is the movie. If you take it out, you don't have much. All that stuff about Doc Ock and Harry is just a symptom of how Peter's dual identity is causing problems for many, and it's important that many of the challenges he faces - trying to ease Aunt May's self-blame, trying to apologise to Mary-Jane, trying to stop Doc Ock - are accomplished by Peter telling truths and unburdening himself.

And yes, maybe you'd be a bit overwhelmed with having your girlfriend kidnapped etc. But then, perhaps you're not the kind of person who, when they end up with superpowers, tries to fight crime.

[NeoRetribution]

Harry knows the Green Goblin as the freak who tried to blow up both him and the love of his life...threatened/attacked/killed a large number of other people etc.


This was exactly the point where the Spider-man films lost my interest. I am glad that someone finally put it into moderately coherent form.