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View Full Version : [3.5] Does not like WBL... (NPC Gear Help)



Drakevarg
2010-10-10, 10:57 PM
In an attempt to make my NPCs suck less, I've decided to actually look at the WBL chart thing on p. 127 of the DMG and give them level-appropriate equipment. Problem being, I can't actually think of what to spend all that money on.

I'm still at the start of my to-do list (Level 3 Characters), Level 1 Characters being less of an issue since I just use PC starting gold values for them (read: much less than the 900 gp listed on the WBL chart). On average, I get roughly 2/3 of the way through the funds before running out of things to buy.

The only thing left that I can imagine them carrying around is a bag of healing potions, which with the ammount of gold they tend to have left lying about comes to about 20 potions per random city guard. Which seems a tad excessive.

Here's a (spoiler'd) inventory list:

City Guard - Elf [Samurai 3] 862 gp, 9sp/2500 gp Remaining
Masterwork Guard Banded Mail - 400 gp - 35 lbs.
Peasant's Outfit - 1 sp - 2 lbs.
Masterwork Guard Katana - 335 gp - 6 lbs.
Masterwork Guard Wakizashi - 310 gp - 2 lbs.
Masterwork Guard Composite Longbow (+1) - 500 gp - 3 lbs.
Arrows (20) - 1 gp - 3 lbs.
Smoke Arrow - 20 gp - 1 lb. - [1 Round/Light. Calls 1d4 Guards after 10 Rounds. Works at day only.]
Flare Arrow - 20 gp - 1 lb. - [1 Round/Light. Calls 1d4 Guards after 10 Rounds. Works at night only.]
Masterwork Manacles - 50 gp - 2 lbs. - [Escape Artist DC 35, Break DC 28. Hardness 10, HP 10]
Flint and Steel - 1 gp - --

Tukka
2010-10-10, 11:33 PM
Are you trying to avoid giving them magic items? Because there's lots of useful gear that you could give them that would quickly eat up that extra cash. Just ask yourself what a PC would find useful, and your average guard-type NPC is likely to have a use for it as well.

There are a lot of inexpensive armor and weapon crystals, and there are always standbys like +1 weapons and armor, cloaks/vests of resistance, rings of protection, etc. You could also give them better (but fewer) potions (CMW, etc.)

Ravens_cry
2010-10-10, 11:34 PM
Give him a +1 magic weapon, the Katana perhaps. Some useful potions would round out the rest.

Drakevarg
2010-10-10, 11:41 PM
Are you trying to avoid giving them magic items? Because there's lots of useful gear that you could give them that would quickly eat up that extra cash. Just ask yourself what a PC would find useful, and your average guard-type NPC is likely to have a use for it as well.

There are a lot of inexpensive armor and weapon crystals, and there are always standbys like +1 weapons and armor, cloaks/vests of resistance, rings of protection, etc. You could also give them better (but fewer) potions (CMW, etc.)

Some of my limitations are due to how I run magic, yes. For example, Rings require at least a 12th level caster to make. There are very few 12th level casters in this world, let alone ones who would sell trinkets to guards in backwater mining towns. In fact, the highest level non-named NPC spellcasters are 7th level.

Combined with the expense of these, for 3rd level characters at least that means scolls (can't really be used since I tossed out UMD and most guards don't know enough about magic to use one), wands (again, rare due to the requirement to have a 5th level creator), and potions (less rare, but potentially cumbersome).

Tyndmyr
2010-10-10, 11:48 PM
Craft Wondrous Item is awesome, and makes a never ending amount of useful things. It only requires CL 3, so even the most magic starved world should have ready access to it.

Next up, Craft Magic Arms and armor is a mere CL 5. The potential utility should be obvious to even the most magic-clueless mook, and as wizards pick up a crafting or metamagic only feat at level 5, it should be reasonably popular.

Be aware that magic item balance and accessibility are major balance components. For instance, without UMD existing, the rogue is substantially less useful. In fact, all melee will be significantly hampered by the lack of magic items, to varying degrees.

Drakevarg
2010-10-10, 11:53 PM
Craft Wondrous Item is awesome, and makes a never ending amount of useful things. It only requires CL 3, so even the most magic starved world should have ready access to it.

Next up, Craft Magic Arms and armor is a mere CL 5. The potential utility should be obvious to even the most magic-clueless mook, and as wizards pick up a crafting or metamagic only feat at level 5, it should be reasonably popular.

When I get to the 5th and 7th level characters (aka the biggest ones that will appear with any regularity), I'm sure I'll feel like a kid in a candy shop with Wonderous Items. On the down side, they tend to be rather expensive for the 2500gp budget Level 3 characters are sitting on. If they gave up all their MW weapons and armor, they might be able to afford one.


Be aware that magic item balance and accessibility are major balance components. For instance, without UMD existing, the rogue is substantially less useful. In fact, all melee will be significantly hampered by the lack of magic items, to varying degrees.

I imagined as much. I just didn't like the feel of UMD (the idea of "faking it" just made no sense), but magic items are not nonexistant, just rarer. But I like adversity. Makes things more interesting. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-10-11, 12:04 AM
Well, if you want a way to burn cash on non-consumables, those would be the obvious ways. Note that the casters themselves, as they make the items, can have a significantly larger amount of them. ESPECIALLY if they sell items for profit. The 2500 gp cap isn't that much of a problem. Plenty of items exist under that level. I suggest surveying MiC. In particular, eternal wands are delightful for nearly everyone, and as they explicitly do not require UMD(they're basically a formalized use/day version of what's in the DMG. Same pricing), they should pose no problem for any character to use.

UMD via faking it isn't that unreasonable.

See, magic is basically another form of technology. If it has rules, it can be figured out, at least to some degree. A person using UMD who doesn't actually understand every detail of casting the spell is equivalent to a person who uses a computer, but has no understanding of how to build one. Very few people actually seek in-depth understanding of everything they use...they're generally satisfied with the quick and dirty of how to get it basically functional.

Drakevarg
2010-10-11, 12:10 AM
Well, if you want a way to burn cash on non-consumables, those would be the obvious ways. Note that the casters themselves, as they make the items, can have a significantly larger amount of them. ESPECIALLY if they sell items for profit. The 2500 gp cap isn't that much of a problem. Plenty of items exist under that level. I suggest surveying MiC. In particular, eternal wands are delightful for nearly everyone, and as they explicitly do not require UMD(they're basically a formalized use/day version of what's in the DMG. Same pricing), they should pose no problem for any character to use.[/quite]

I dunno what MiC has. I probably don't own it, and have a "no meatspace = no use" rule.

I have:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Draconomicon
Libris Mortis
Complete Warrior
Complete Arcane
Manual of the Planes (3.0, but easy enough to modify.)

[quote]UMD via faking it isn't that unreasonable.

See, magic is basically another form of technology. If it has rules, it can be figured out, at least to some degree. A person using UMD who doesn't actually understand every detail of casting the spell is equivalent to a person who uses a computer, but has no understanding of how to build one. Very few people actually seek in-depth understanding of everything they use...they're generally satisfied with the quick and dirty of how to get it basically functional.

If you see magic that way. I don't. For one, no matter how much you know about scorpions, you can not convince the world that you are, in fact, a scorpion long enough to sting someone with the tail that you don't have. Similarly, if using a certain magic ability requires that you be an orc, you cannot convince the universe that you are an orc.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-11, 12:24 AM
I dunno what MiC has. I probably don't own it, and have a "no meatspace = no use" rule.

I have:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Draconomicon
Libris Mortis
Complete Warrior
Complete Arcane
Manual of the Planes (3.0, but easy enough to modify.)

Ah. Well, I strongly recommend it, as it is one of the more generally useful books. However, while you don't own any books containing eternal wands, all you need to do is calculate the price for a 2 use a day spell item from the DMG. It's the exact same.


If you see magic that way. I don't. For one, no matter how much you know about scorpions, you can not convince the world that you are, in fact, a scorpion long enough to sting someone with the tail that you don't have. Similarly, if using a certain magic ability requires that you be an orc, you cannot convince the universe that you are an orc.

The point isn't replicating the means, it's replicating the end effect. If you know enough about scorpions(UMD), and have the necessary materials(wand), you can in fact poison someone just like a scorpion can.

WarKitty
2010-10-11, 12:30 AM
While it's less of an issue at the levels you're playing with, not having available magic items does *really* make NPC's useless at mid to high levels. I'd say starting around level 6 or 7, the melee will just die every time to a caster no matter what. That's the practical concern a lot of people have.

Are alchemical items magical? Tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, etc., can make good investments for lower-level NPC's, and can add spice to the encounter.

Drakevarg
2010-10-11, 12:34 AM
The point isn't replicating the means, it's replicating the end effect. If you know enough about scorpions(UMD), and have the necessary materials(wand), you can in fact poison someone just like a scorpion can.

Whee, tangent debate time. :smalltongue: Not that we'll get very far given the purely subjective subject matter.

It wasn't a very good analogy, but the alternative I thought of using fingerprint scanners didn't work very well since you can just reach into a fingerprint scanner and hack it if you know enough about it. The way I view it, you can't do that to magic. A mage might be able to do it, but that's because they're already magi and hacking the universe is their superpower.

Not that non-magi can't use wands. That would defeat the purpose of wands. They just can't use wands that weren't designed for them to use, because doing so would involve altering the magic of the wand, which can't be done without magic of your own.

It's a nice catch-22. The only time you can alter the function of a wand is when you no longer need to. :smallamused:


While it's less of an issue at the levels you're playing with, not having available magic items does *really* make NPC's useless at mid to high levels. I'd say starting around level 6 or 7, the melee will just die every time to a caster no matter what. That's the practical concern a lot of people have.

And around those levels, they'll actually be able to afford said items. (At least the ones that are actually available. Which would be ones that a caster of 7th level or lower could make.)


Are alchemical items magical? Tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, etc., can make good investments for lower-level NPC's, and can add spice to the encounter.

No they're not, even if I don't really like them. I suppose I could had a few out.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-11, 12:39 AM
Whee, tangent debate time. :smalltongue: Not that we'll get very far given the purely subjective subject matter.

It wasn't a very good analogy, but the alternative I thought of using fingerprint scanners didn't work very well since you can just reach into a fingerprint scanner and hack it if you know enough about it. The way I view it, you can't do that to magic. A mage might be able to do it, but that's because they're already magi and hacking the universe is their superpower.

Not that non-magi can't use wands. That would defeat the purpose of wands. They just can't use wands that weren't designed for them to use, because doing so would involve altering the magic of the wand, which can't be done without magic of your own.

Well, the thing is, if you get rid of the entire concept of magic being usable because you can figure out how to use it, you need to ditch int based casting classes, since that's exactly what they do.

Wizards only exist because you CAN learn how to use magic through intellect and study.

Edit: And Im a bit confused by the "not that non-magi can't use wands". If you remove UMD, isn't that exactly what happens? And, if not in your system, then whats the problem with NPCs having wands?

Zaydos
2010-10-11, 12:41 AM
In the oldest incarnations of UMD (a thief's Read Scrolls special ability) it wasn't hacking into magic it was having an extraordinarily basic understanding of the craft and attempting to use that.

This of course comes from Fritz Leiber's character the Gray Mouser who had been an apprentice mage before becoming the iconic fantasy thief and had a tendency to cause bad things to happen when he tinkered in the arts of wizardry.

awa
2010-10-11, 12:53 AM
don't let people get you down if you want to refluf magic in your world go right ahead their is no rule in the dmg saying No wizards always work by just knowing about the world your not allowed to do anything different. potions are always a good choice but don't make them all cure their are a bunch of other good potions you can get like enlarge or bark skin.

switching to full plate will take a good chunk out of their wealth increase their ac and it has the same check penalties as banded mail

Drakevarg
2010-10-11, 12:54 AM
Well, the thing is, if you get rid of the entire concept of magic being usable because you can figure out how to use it, you need to ditch int based casting classes, since that's exactly what they do.

Wizards only exist because you CAN learn how to use magic through intellect and study.

And that's why they're Wizards and not Rogues. If you can have a class feature (using magic) without actually taking that class, it defeats the point of the class system in the first place.

Of course, that's getting into meta territory.


Edit: And Im a bit confused by the "not that non-magi can't use wands". If you remove UMD, isn't that exactly what happens? And, if not in your system, then whats the problem with NPCs having wands?

They can use wands (provided that the wand doesn't have peculiar restrictions) as soon as they figure out what the trigger is. They can't use SCROLLS, because scrolls are incomplete spells and can only be used by people who already know the craft. (For the same reason, a divine caster can't use an arcane scroll, and vice versa.)

The only limitation with wands is availability. (Using the rules I have set up, unless you're in a town with at least 10,000 people in it, don't expect any wands.)

Tukka
2010-10-11, 01:44 AM
And that's why they're Wizards and not Rogues. If you can have a class feature (using magic) without actually taking that class, it defeats the point of the class system in the first place.
Rogues and bards have UMD as a class skill (and a reasonable number of skill points) for a reason -- they're supposed to be have more aptitude for figuring out magical devices than fighters and barbarians. If you remove that skill, you're removing a part of what defines those classes. If enhancing class distinctiveness is your goal, at very least I'd consider making UMD rogue/bard only.

Also, characters with UMD "using magic" when they have the right crutch available doesn't defeat the point of the class system any more than much of the other ability overlap in the system, so long as the particulars of the use of the ability differ in significant ways. After all, most of the fighter's class features can be readily duplicated by another other class. Wizards and sorcerers spell an entire spell list and familiars to boot. Even clerics get access to many of the same spells as wizards and sorcerers. Maybe these are things you have already addressed though, or intend to address. It's a pretty tall order.

Drakevarg
2010-10-11, 01:50 AM
Rogues and bards have UMD as a class skill (and a reasonable number of skill points) for a reason -- they're supposed to be have more aptitude for figuring out magical devices than fighters and barbarians. If you remove that skill, you're removing a part of what defines those classes. If enhancing class distinctiveness is your goal, at very least I'd consider making UMD rogue/bard only.

Also, characters with UMD "using magic" when they have the right crutch available doesn't defeat the point of the class system any more than much of the other ability overlap in the system, so long as the particulars of the use of the ability differ in significant ways. After all, most of the fighter's class features can be readily duplicated by another other class. Wizards and sorcerers spell an entire spell list and familiars to boot. Even clerics get access to many of the same spells as wizards and sorcerers. Maybe these are things you have already addressed though, or intend to address. It's a pretty tall order.

Well, another reason is that the way magic is treated in this setting, nobody is going to have a "casual knowledge" of magic. Here, knowing anything about magic gets your ass kicked into the Mages Guild for life, the alternatives being imprisonment or execution. So if you grab a self help book on how to use wands, you might as well read the whole library and become a wizard, 'cause you'll have nothing else to do.

That's for arcane magic, though. For divine magic, the reason it doesn't work is because the gods don't want it to, and that's the end of that.

As for the "tall order" bit... tell me about it. I've more than once gone overboard and attempted to rework the system entirely. I've gotten more restraint since then.