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Dorna
2010-10-11, 05:40 AM
Hi!
Some time ago I started to build a TWF Warblade. I opened a thread in this Forum, my group fell apart, I never had the chance to play my character.. now I got a new group but my thread was highjacked ;)
So here is what I got.. maybe I could get some Advice (Never played with ToB before)

Human, Initial Rolls: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 11

1 Warblade: TWF, Adaptive Style - Punishing Stance, Moment of the perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike)
2 Warblade: Leading the Attack
3 Warblade: Weapon Focus (Kukri) (Not happy with this)
4 Warblade: Blood in the Water (Str 15)
5 Warblade: Ironheart Aura - Iron Heart Surge
6 Warblade: Stormguard Warrior
7 Bloodclaw Master: Fountain of Blood
8 Bloodclaw Master: (Str 16)
9 Warblade: Imp. Critical - Dancing Mongoose

Equipment: (got 36.000gp for the level 9 Char)
Gloves of Balanced hand
Amulet of Health +2
Belt of Priestly Might
2* +1 Kukri

I think it's clear, what i intend to do.. Use Stormguard Warrior + Dancing Mongoose for additional Damage and stack up Blood in the Water.

But i don't think Weapon Focus is my best choise, I don't know what Maneuvers i should replace and the Equipment isn't perfect either ;)

Anyone got some Ideas?

Milskidasith
2010-10-11, 06:44 AM
Go for Assassin's Stance (always be in it) and add craven, for 2d6+your level damage to anybody you can sneak attack? Not amazing, but a good alternative to blood in the water.

You could also go with shadow blade to get your dex mod to damage in addition to your strength.

AslanCross
2010-10-11, 07:28 AM
What's your first level stance? Ironheart Aura is a feat that runs off Iron Heart stances. Do you mean Punishing Stance? (It's a great way to boost damage early on, especially considering your weapons' small damage dice)

Dorna
2010-10-11, 07:46 AM
Yep. Punishing Stance. Edited in the first post.

Darastin
2010-10-11, 09:09 AM
May I suggest a different approach?

I don't think Blood in the Water is as good as it sounds, especially considering how it is limited to crit-able targets - even with Improved Critical and a weapon with a high threat range. Try adding two levels of fighter at level 6 and 8. Pick Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery as Fighter Bonus Feats. Specialization has a bad reputation, but coupled with Mastery it is actually quite decent when TWFing. That's +2 to hit and +4 to damage; consider how many critical threats it takes with Blood in the Water to break even - especially since you also have the option to go into Punishing Stance instead for another +1d6 damage to all attacks; assuming you can afford the AC penalty.

You should also consider putting at least one stat increase into DEX and pick Improved TWF instead of Improved Critical. That's another attack to feed to Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rythm. Another attack to make use of the bonus damage from Punishing Stance. Another attack to gain these +2 to hit and +4 to damage.


On Assassins Stance, Shadow Blade and so on:

That is a good plan, but it's quite difficult to pull of together with Stormguard Warrior. Shadow Blade is probably the way to go for TWFing Martial Adepts, but it requires either two feats to qualify (Martial Training and Martial Stance) or a level of Swordsage. Feats are already in short supply since you'll probably build such a character purely on DEX and thus want Weapon Finesse as well, plus the entire TWF chain. Swordsage costs you one point of BAB; while a single point is affordable as far as offensive capability is concerned, it messes up the timing of feat slots and BAB prerequisites. Both Stormguard Warrior and Improved TWF need BAB +6; if you lose BAB you can only pick one of those on a 9th level character - unless you use Fighter Bonus Feats, but that costs you Melee Weapon Mastery... it's a tough decision.


On Stormguard Warrior:

First of all, it is capable of doing a ridiculous amount of damage if properly set up - and thus provoke DM (over)compensation with the nerf stick or the banhammer.

Further, it isn't exactly trivial to set up. It is most impressive if you use all attacks of your first full attack for Combat Rythm and then vaporize your victim with the second full attack, as many bonus attacks as you can get from your maneuvers and +20 or more bonus damage. However, after your "flurry of caresses" in the first round your opponent might guess what you're planning and try to deny you that second full attack - maybe by simply retreating.

Also, consider that you just spent two full attacks fighting your target. Unless you're fighting a really powerfull boss-type enemy, two full attacks should mess up most opponents badly enough (if it doesn't kill them outright).

Last but not least, current investment paradigms say that a certain amount of money earned right now is worth more than the same amount earned tomorrow. This also applies to D&D combat and damage. The faster your target takes damage, the sooner it will fall and the less damage it deals in return. D&D is a team game; you're not supposed to be alone (usually) and if your first full attack deals enough damage, one of your teammates might use the opportunity to finish the bad guy off before he retaliates.

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin

Master_Rahl22
2010-10-11, 09:18 AM
Actually a Swordsage dip might be very useful. You could take one level at 9 to be able to pick up Assassin's Stance and several nifty boosts/counters. Desert Wind is often considered the worst of the disciplines due to the prevalence of fire resistance, but for anything not resistant you could grab Burning Blade or similar maneuvers that add damage to all of your attacks.

Whatever you do, your best friend is going to be anybody who can add to your damage but whatever means, with one of the best being a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard. Also, seriously consider Travel Devotion or a level of Lion Totem Barbarian or similar to get actual Pounce, not just the limited from you can get from Bloodclaw Master.


You should also consider putting at least one stat increase into DEX and pick Improved TWF instead of Improved Critical. That's another attack to feed to Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rythm. Another attack to make use of the bonus damage from Punishing Stance. Another attack to gain these +2 to hit and +4 to damage.
He bought the Improved TWF feat. Gloves of the Balanced Hand from MIC.

Darastin
2010-10-11, 10:37 AM
Desert Wind is often considered the worst of the disciplines due to the prevalence of fire resistance, but for anything not resistant you could grab Burning Blade or similar maneuvers that add damage to all of your attacks.
Yeah, Burning Blade works reasonably well with TWF. See if you can get a Spellthief in your team to get rid of that pesky fire resistance :smallsmile:


He bought the Improved TWF feat. Gloves of the Balanced Hand from MIC.
I knew I should have looked those up... well, they should do the trick for now. But sooner or later you'll want Greater TWF as well and the gloves won't help with that. The third TWF attack might usually miss anything but a really soft target, but you can always feed it to Combat Rythm.


However, assuming Greater TWF is not an issue, how about Swordsage 2 / Warblade 5 / Fighter 2? Let's see what we can fit in there...

I suggest starting with Swordsage, you'll lose two HP on average (compared to Warblade first) but Swordsages have waaaay better skills. Keep starting stats, but put all stat increases into DEX.

So, level 1: Swordsage. Pick Shadow Hand for Discipline Focus. Pick a Shadow Hand stance. TWFers aren't exactly famous for Mobility, so I suggest Island of Blades for easier flanking. Your teammates will like it, too! As for maneuvers... pick those which you're likely going to need only once per combat. Fight with daggers or short swords - short swords seem to do more damage but a) 1d6 vs. 1d4 doesn't matter much at level 9, daggers are easier to conceal, have two damage types to chose from, can be thrown if nescessary and are usable by a wider range of classes; thus somewhat more likely to loot from well-equipped NPCs :smallcool:

Level 2-6: Warblade. Make sure to pick up an Iron Heart stance to qualify for Ironheart Aura and pick it as your Warblade bonus feat. Pick Weapon Finesse and Adaptive Style as regular Feats.

Level 7: Fighter. Pick Weapon Specialization as your Fighter bonus feat. Note that Swordsage provided Weapon Focus for free, and Weapon Aptitude allows you to switch your specialization selection to any Shadow Hand weapon :smallsmile:

Level 8: Swordsage. Your Swordsage initiator level is now 5, so Assassin's Stance is availiable. As are a number of other 3rd level maneuvers.

Level 9: Fighter. Pick Stormguard Warrior as your regular feat and Melee Weapon Mastery as your Fighter bonus feat. The question is... should you pick Mastery for slashing or piercing weapons? DR x/slashing is somewhat more common than DR x/piercing, but Slashing Mastery will prevent you from switching your Weapon Specialization between short swords and dagger via Weapon Aptitude - and I'd like to keep that option just in case.

The disadvantage of that build is that it doesn't qualify for Dancing Mongoose yet as its Warblade initiator level is only 7. But I think the increased damage from Specialization plus Mastery and Shadow Blade (with your stats at +8 without any magical enhancements) should compensate that for now, and you'll get your TWF boosts soon enough.


A proposal on tactics:

As I already mentioned, the best counter to your Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rythm is to simply move away. This will waste two full rounds worth of your actions compared to one full round of your opponent's. OK, you might catch up with him and hit him once (if he moves away in a fashion that allows you to pounce him, he really deserves to die). That's... not too impressive for two rounds; even with a huge damage bonus.

To prevent such an embarassment, I suggest keeping a movement boost (such as Sudden Leap) and Wolf Fang Strike ready after your "flurry of caresses" builds up the damage bonus. Once you have Dancing/Raging Mongoose, use them now for more damage bonus.

If your opponent remains in melee range and counterattacks, he dies in the next round. If he's smart, he whacks you once and tumbles away. Don't waste a counter on this attack unless it is potentially disabling; Sudden Leap (or whatever movement boost you have) after him. If you get close enough, full attack him to death. If you fail to close the distance, move close and Wolf Fang Strike him. It's not ideal, but with all that bonus damage from Combat Rythm those two attacks should still hurt. If he's smart and cautious, he'll just double-move away, but if your jump skill is good enough, you might still catch him. The skill description says that a running start requires 20' of movement in a straight line - it doesn't mention the Run action. So move first, then jump. Keep in mind that an increased movement rate also gives a bonus to jump checks, thus doubling the advantage of above-average speed.

At high levels, use Diamond Nightmare Blade instead of Wolf Fang Strike. It's normaly best used with two-handed weapons and Power Attack, but when backed up by Combat Rythm, even a tiny stab with a humble dagger hurts like hell. Don't forget to play or imitate the "QUAD DAMAGE!" sound sample from Quake 3 if you hit :smallwink:


On equipment:

There are Martial Discipline weapon enhancements in the ToB. They're +1 equivalents and provide a +3 bonus to hit while you use a stance or maneuver from the corresponding discipline. Since the Warblade 5 / Fighter 2 / Swordsage 2 build above will always use a Shadow Hand stance, a pair of +1 shadow hand daggers should come in handy. Never underestimate the importance of a solid attack bonus!

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin

Road_Runner
2010-10-11, 11:02 AM
I actually played a TWF Warblade, it's a very fun and powerful character to play.

Some things to point out:

1) With improved critical, 18-20 threat range, and a ton of attacks you definitely want blood in the water stance. I found that this stance was helpful even at high levels, it is awesome in extended battles.

2) I found that Adaptive Style isn't that important for a warblade; I would suggest getting improved critical earlier.

3) As someone pointed out, it is hard to get your full attack + full attack combo off. The foolproof way to pull it off is:

Delay+Pouncing Charge+Moment of Alacrity+Dancing/Raging Mongoose

I found Moment of Alacrity is key in getting off two full attacks in a row, and prevents the enemy from trying to move away (those most of them shouldn't know what you're attempting anyway, I'm not sure what type of knowledge you need to know about warblades but they're not very common.)

And btw for the people suggesting Shadowhand manuevers and stances those aren't available to Warblades (unless you want to spend feats on them, but it's really not worth it).

Darastin
2010-10-12, 10:35 AM
1) With improved critical, 18-20 threat range, and a ton of attacks you definitely want blood in the water stance. I found that this stance was helpful even at high levels, it is awesome in extended battles.
But can it compete with Shadow Blade?

The OPs character could have a DEX of 18 and a +4 DEX booster for a total DEX bonus of +6. That's +6 to damage for all attacks, absolutely reliable, right from the start, no matter how short or long the fight is - plus whatever benefit is gained by the stance used to activate this feat.


2) I found that Adaptive Style isn't that important for a warblade; I would suggest getting improved critical earlier.
Maybe, but it is almost mandatory if you dip into Swordsage.


Delay+Pouncing Charge+Moment of Alacrity+Dancing/Raging Mongoose
Hmmm... relies a bit too much on Moment of Alacrity for my taste. It's a good maneuver, but it heavily depends on initiative order and it only works once unless you lower your initiative by delaying or readying.


I'm not sure what type of knowledge you need to know about warblades but they're not very common.
Well, there is the Martial Lore skill. And you can learn from observation. The Warblade pulls this off once, then starts "caressing" the next victim... guess what they will think...


And btw for the people suggesting Shadowhand manuevers and stances those aren't available to Warblades (unless you want to spend feats on them, but it's really not worth it).
It's not worth feats IMHO, but one or two levels of Swordsage are quite affordable, provided you can handle the BAB/feat slot timing.

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin

Master_Rahl22
2010-10-12, 01:09 PM
I like Darastin's build suggestion. It should work well, and even though you give up Dancing Mongoose at start of play you'll have much better attacks for when you do get that maneuver.