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Last Laugh
2010-10-11, 12:29 PM
I'm currently playing a game where I keep being stronger than my allies. It isn't intentional, I keep making weaker characters (and the DM levels me down everytime I do)

after a few sessions with my Paladin 5/Beast master 1/ Fighter 2/ Halfling outrider 1 He took me aside and said that I need to nerf by animal companion because it's too hard to hit. (I pointed out that I'm a squishier target, that there are touch attacks, spells, surprise rounds) So I asked if I could just make a new character

The group is:
A level 11 Dragon Shaman/Fighter. (his feats are all over the place, but he just smashes things.) TWF w/ 2x elven lightblade. swapping out for spiked chain soon.

Level 10 druid. planning on druid/fighter. I can only remember him wildshaping and using flamestrikes. (conserves power too much)

Level 10 Favored Soul. (this is my roomies character) He mostly just smashes folk. casts very few spells.

And level 9 me, I am considering:
A bard, probably DFI. I'm concerned that the +4d6 I can add is just too much for this group. Scaling it back to 2d6 is a decent option.

Or a Sorceror. Probably going into unseen seer (I love 6+ skills) I feel that with this option I can adjust power on the fly by casting different spells or less of them.

Finally a hellreaver. Probably Barb 2/Paladin of freedom 2/ Totemist 2/ Hellreaver 3. Just a self healing tank. Char--> saves

What character can you suggest? What things should I look out for next gaming session to get a better idea of this groups power level? Finally, Should I try to cause a little bit of escalation?

More info on the last one:
We have fought tons of Orcs, always in straight up fights. We have never had to make a skill check.
There have been around 4 non-orc enemies, all of these have been under CRd.
Would throwing a fireball every combat show him how different the power level between us and the enemy is?

Keld Denar
2010-10-11, 12:48 PM
DFI is REALLY strong. Like, really really strong. I have a DFI Bard in an 8th level game, and my DM thinks that the 3d6 I have at that level is too overpowered (my group is pretty low op). You'd probably be better served with straight up IC instead. +4/+4 IC is much lower DM-aggro wise than +2d6 fire even. The boost to accuracy will help the TWFer, and anyone who PAs will be able to PA the whole bonus for +12 damage, only 2 damage average less than 4d6 would result in.

Trust me, save the feats from DFI and go with straight IC if you go Bard. Splash in some Lyric Thamateurge and pick up some Wizard BC spells befor you head into Sublime Chord. Be the batman bard with BC, disable, and buffs to divert the spotlight away from yourself.

Toliudar
2010-10-11, 01:07 PM
A bard who buffs the others and takes care of face/stealth that your group currently lacks seems like a good strategy. If you have two full casters and they mostly don't cast spells, it's likely a style of play issue for your group. If they're focused on melee, then anything that does something else is more likely to seem overpowered.

Also, +1 to Keld Denar's comments.

Fouredged Sword
2010-10-11, 01:10 PM
This sounds like a job for batman... Wizard.

Or bard. Run a group buffing and bfc bard. Shape spell, metamagic song, glitterdust and warweaver are your friends. take a warweaver dip and use shape spell to turn bardic music into large AOE effects from small area effects like glitterdust.

Smile and let your uber buffed friends dominate.

Scow2
2010-10-11, 01:13 PM
Go for Buffer Bardzilla, which is somewhere on this subforum (Maybe a page or two back),

If possible, get Words of Creation!

Keld Denar
2010-10-11, 02:29 PM
I'd actually advise against Words of Creation. First of all, its imposes a crappy RP restriction on you, since it is an [Exalted] feat. Whats the fun in playing a bard if you can't be a troublemaker?

Second, Words is probably a bit higher optimization level than he's lookin for. A +4 bard song at level 9 isn't too strong, but a +8 bard song at level 9 is. The goal is for him to be effective without being overpowered. WoC is overpowered. Don't do it.

ericgrau
2010-10-11, 02:38 PM
1. The druid fighter needs a caster PrC badly. Multiclassed casters are trouble and part of making yourself par is helping the super weak keep up. But you shouldn't annoy the entire group by trying to help all their builds.

2. Try something a bit milder, matching the kinds of things your allies play. A DFI bard is hugely powerful, and probably not a good idea. A sorcerer might be okay, but as the party's only arcane caster even that may shine a bit. Unless the DM has enemies focus fire on the squishy caster to force him to better defend himself or get healed. Many DMs don't unfortunately. IMO it'll be hard, though possible, to make a bard that is useful yet not OP. A fighter, paladin, ranger, barbarian, divine caster or etc. with at ~1-2 classes (including the PrC, if any, and then only a mild one) might be a good idea. No divine meta magic, no shock trooper, etc.

Telonius
2010-10-11, 02:45 PM
Maybe Monk/Sorcerer to Enlightened Fist? You'll lose two spellcasting levels, which should bring you down to about the rest of the group's power. With some of the ray/touch shenanigans it could still make it tactically interesting for you.

Amphetryon
2010-10-11, 02:51 PM
Might I suggest Beguiler? It fills a role the party currently lacks with Arcane spells, and very few of them are directly save-or-suck variety. You'll have your skill points, be a tricky caster, and will be upper to mid-Tier in power.

Douglas
2010-10-11, 03:00 PM
It sounds like A) you are an expert optimizer, B) the rest of your group has no clue how to optimize, and C) you are so used to optimizing characters that you do it automatically.

Given the group as you described it, you have four options I can think of for trying to balance your power with the party you're in:
1) Help the other players optimize their characters to match your power level. Requires cooperation from the other players and the DM, may lead to a bit of an arms race, and may lead to a frustrated DM if he doesn't know how to handle it.
2) Build your character to focus on support, making the other party members an integral part of your power because you make them more powerful rather than doing anything directly. Does not require as much cooperation from the other players as option 1, but can lead to the same arms race/frustrated DM issues, and the other players might get annoyed by the extra effort involved in keeping track of all your buffs.
3) Take a deep breath, sit back, and consciously force yourself to not optimize. No dipping 3 front-loaded classes, no high-power PrCs, no combinations with high synergy, etc. If it looks like something that might be recommended on this forum for building a powerful character, avoid it. Even taking a full caster class (even Warmage) will probably be too much unless you intentionally take atrocious spell choices and/or spend most of your time ignoring your spells. This may be very difficult to do, as it goes against all your optimizing instincts.
4) Take a known very weak idea as the core of your character build and then optimize that. For example, single-class Monk. This allows you to use your normal optimization instincts while still ending up with a character that should be much more in line with the rest of the party.

You appear to have attempted option 3. Unless my understanding of your description of the rest of the party is far off the mark, I'm pretty sure you have failed. I am fairly certain that all 3 of your proposed builds will easily overshadow the party members you have described, though the bard is at least leaning towards option 2.

I recommend option 4.

tahu88810
2010-10-11, 03:03 PM
The first thing I noticed is that whereas your friends are all playing single-class characters, except for ONE person who is playing a dual-class character, with relatively simple builds you're playing multi-class characters with complex builds. Why not just tone it down a bit?

Pick a theme or type of character or concept you want to play, first.
Let's say you chose "Knight in shining armor". So then you roll up a fighter, paladin, knight, or some other melee class that, according to the book, enjoys wearing heavy armor and taking hits.
Now choose a race that fits your concept.
If the concept is complex enough, maybe take a second class at some point.
Voila, you're now on par with the rest of your group.
(Note that you don't need to play a fighter or melee class or whatever. It was just a random choice I made)

Edit: Ninja'd

Edhelras
2010-10-11, 03:17 PM
If you worry about being too overpowering, I'd suggest nonot making another FMC (Frenzied Multi-Classilla...) character.

Why not make a straight single-class core character? Might throw in some lvls of Rogue for curing skill point defiency (SPD).

Better yet - start with a background and a RP story of the character, then let him take and build lvls according to that. Don't take another multiclass unless it makes sense RP-wise. Then - try to optimize as much as possible within those limits.

JKTrickster
2010-10-11, 03:58 PM
I just want to say that barring multiclassing only has a real effect if you're going for a melee character (e.g. A DFI Bard would appreciate the extra PrCs, but they aren't necessary if it is just for DFI buffing). That and only multiclassing when it "makes sense fluff-wise" doesn't really mean anything to me (but that is another issue and should not be discussed here to derail this thread).

Instead, I would suggest a Monk just for laughs. Optimizing a Monk would be a great challenge and not much would probably happen. You could then go into Sorcerer and then Enlightened Fist (all ideas from other people, just wanted to put them together for you).

Interesting, definitely not optimized, and you could still go for the "show him Orcs are way too under CR-ed" thing you wanted.

Cogidubnus
2010-10-11, 04:13 PM
Whatever you do, just single class. You're picking up too many dips etc that are boosting your power level.

I'd go bard, no DFI, just lingering song, a whip and some disarming practise. You can help your allies with inspire courage (boost this as much as you want, just don't use DFI) and disarm troublesome enemies with your whip, as well as healiing and buffing.

Keld Denar
2010-10-11, 04:30 PM
Whatever you do, just single class. You're picking up too many dips etc that are boosting your power level.

This is a false assumption. Multiclassing (meaning multiple base classes) only really helps non-spellcaster characters. They are the ones who benefit most since they get their primary attributes (skills, BAB, and HP) from any class, to a degree. A caster gets his primary attribute ONLY from his ONE caster class, and caster PrCs.

A Wizard20 is still more versatile and more powerful than a Barbarian2/Fighter2/Ranger1/OccultSlayer5/PiousTemplar10, even though the latter has 3 base classes and 2 PrCs. That said, the Barbarian2/Fighter2/Ranger1/OccultSlayer5/PiousTemplar is probably stronger than either a Fighter20 or Barbarian20, simply because those classes only scale linearly. Its better to have a broad skill set then have multiple minor upgrades to your normal tricks. Limiting multiclassing only encourages people to play casters, from an optimizer's point of view.

Last Laugh
2010-10-11, 04:33 PM
Excellent suggestions everyone!! thanks lots ^^

I think a changeling bard 9 would be fun. Yummy disguise and bluff mods (glibness looks awesome)

Are there any bard Prestige classes which advance bardic music abilities? (besides foco lyrist)

I'm think that Bardic knack will be more effective than Bardic Knowledge for this party/campaign

for feats I'm thinking
1 Darkstalker
3 Song of the heart
6 Melodic Casting
9 Obtain Familiar (cat, I'm a kitty cat, and I dancedancedance and I dancedancedance)

For future reference does Inspire Greatness + Practiced Caster give you +2 CL?

I'm unsure on spell selection.
I'll just go through the book and pick tricksy magics, but suggestions are appreciated
Edit: The improvisation spell looks outstanding (18 points to add to attacks, skills, or ability checks over the next 9 rounds)

Keld Denar
2010-10-11, 04:39 PM
Are there any bard Prestige classes which advance bardic music abilities? (besides foco lyrist)
Lyric Thamateurge (CMage)
Sublime Chord (CArcane)
Virtuoso (CAdv)
Dirge Singer (Libris Mortis)
Warchanter (CWarrior)
Stormsinger (CArcane)

All progress bardic music to some degree. Some only stack for Inspire Courage (LT) others give their own songs (Virt, Stormsinger, Dirge Singer), while others only give stunted songs (Sublime Chord).



For future reference does Inspire Greatness + Practiced Caster give you +2 CL?
Yes. It would work this way. Actually, with Songs of the Heart, it should give you +3 CL, since SotH increases IG by one HD, IIRC.


I'm unsure on spell selection.
1st
Inspirational Boost (SpC)
Improvisation (SpC)
Scholar's Touch (RoDest?)
Charm Person
Grease

2nd
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Silence
Whirling Blade (SpC)

3rd
Haste
Slow
Confusion
Fear
Glibness

4th
Solid Fog
Dim Door

Last Laugh
2010-10-11, 04:47 PM
1st
Inspirational Boost (SpC)
Improvisation (SpC)
Scholar's Touch (RoDest?)
Charm Person
Grease

2nd
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Silence
Whirling Blade (SpC)

3rd
Haste
Slow
Confusion
Fear
Glibness

4th
Solid Fog
Dim Door

This is wonderful. I may not use all of these, but this is exactly what I needed.
You've been very helpful.
edit: scholar's touch is indeed from Races of Destiny

Edit Edit: The Dragon Shaman/ Fighter is pretty well set up to become at Exotic weapon master so I may show that to him.
The Druid/fighter might be interested in Nature's warrior/Master of Many forms/Maybe I just show him some more effective spells for what he's doing (splinter bolt, bite of, etc.)
I don't know what to do for the Favored Soul, Perhaps a level in Sacred Exorcist?

Keld Denar
2010-10-11, 04:55 PM
Scholar's Touch is one of those spells you read and thing...dang, this is kinda neat. Not game breaking, but just really really neat. Nothing like going into the mini-boss' library, incanting softly, and then walking down the book shelf tapping book titles that look interesting to figure out what the nefarious BBEG is up to. 20-30 days reading in a couple minutes, leaves more time for pickin up chicks in the tavern!