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Mindleshank
2010-10-11, 06:06 PM
What classes in 3.5 give either a d12 HD or have the ability to add CON mod to AC??

aeauseth
2010-10-11, 06:08 PM
Barbarian & Warblade have D12s. Probably others...

Last Laugh
2010-10-11, 06:09 PM
d12 hitdie
Knight (PHBII)
Warblade(ToB)
Barbarian(PhB)
are the base classes I can think of.
Con-->AC
Fist of the Forest (CC) I believe.
Deepwarden (Races of Stone)

Sinfonian
2010-10-11, 06:09 PM
Knight uses a d12.

Con mod to AC, I only know of from Fist of the Forest offhand, but you should check the Stat X to Y thread on the forums for a better answer.

Edit: Almost completely swordsage'd.

AslanCross
2010-10-11, 06:12 PM
While many classes get high HP and heavy armor, I think only the Knight and Crusader have true tanking mechanics (preventing others from getting attacked and making sure you don't die when taking hits for others).

The Barbarian and Warblade can be tough, but IMO they're more of strikers that are hard to put down and not really "I'll take the hits for you" type.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-11, 06:30 PM
Having a d12 for hit die isn't a necessary requirement for being a Tanking Class. Also, two of the d12 base classes don't get Heavy Armor proficiency.

Crusaders are by far one of the best tanking classes. If you're looking for an excellent tanking base class right out of the box, go with a Crusader.

Susano-wo
2010-10-11, 07:03 PM
Stand still makes a nice true tanking mechanic, though you need combat reflexes as well, so its a two feat cost, but is accessible to any class. (also, I would think reach weapon+combat reflexes and Improved Trip would tank nicesly. If they are triped on the ground, its hard for them to attack others)

deuxhero
2010-10-11, 07:06 PM
Dread Necromancer.

Your minions have d12 hds and you get free healing for them between combat. The Dread Necromancer himself isn't that bad a tank either if healed by negative energy.

Scow2
2010-10-11, 07:07 PM
Despite not meeting either of those Prereqs, Crusader dominates the Tanking field: They heal themselves (and others) and can get DR.

Thrawn183
2010-10-11, 07:08 PM
I know this is going to sound strange, but Dragonfire Adept. It has d8 HD and can easily be only Con focused. While they aren't proficient in heavy armor, if you aren't trying to use their invocations in combat (focusing on their breath weapon instead) they can wear it without any real penalties.

You'll be hard pressed to find another class that can have that much HP and AC while still being able to actually do things like crowd control (slow breath).

Morph Bark
2010-10-11, 07:13 PM
I know this is going to sound strange, but Dragonfire Adept. It has d8 HD and can easily be only Con focused. While they aren't proficient in heavy armor, if you aren't trying to use their invocations in combat (focusing on their breath weapon instead) they can wear it without any real penalties.

You'll be hard pressed to find another class that can have that much HP and AC while still being able to actually do things like crowd control (slow breath).

For that matter: Binder. Works just as well, or even better.

hotel_papa
2010-10-11, 07:15 PM
It's been said before, but the Tank concept doesn't really mesh well with D&D. Intelligent monsters know to bypass the guy in 60lbs of sheet metal and go straight for the casters. No such thing as "aggro". However, there are a few ways to pull off the defender type role: Lockdown Builds, the Constant and Dutiful Guardian feats (Or Bodyguard and In Harm's Way, for those more Pathfinderly inclined).

Frosty
2010-10-11, 07:17 PM
Only the Knight can draw Aggro. Everyone else has to use lockdown. Or the Goad feat (a piece of crud to be honest)

Susano-wo
2010-10-11, 07:20 PM
It's been said before, but the Tank concept doesn't really mesh well with D&D. Intelligent monsters know to bypass the guy in 60lbs of sheet metal and go straight for the casters. No such thing as "aggro". However, there are a few ways to pull off the defender type role: Lockdown Builds, the Constant and Dutiful Guardian feats (Or Bodyguard and In Harm's Way, for those more Pathfinderly inclined).

That is true, though the plus side of that is that you can, with RP, taunt an enemy, even if you have no class features to do so. :P (its a possibility at least, depending on the enemy and the PC)

Skorj
2010-10-11, 07:26 PM
It's been said before, but the Tank concept doesn't really mesh well with D&D. Intelligent monsters know to bypass the guy in 60lbs of sheet metal and go straight for the casters. No such thing as "aggro". However, there are a few ways to pull off the defender type role: Lockdown Builds, the Constant and Dutiful Guardian feats (Or Bodyguard and In Harm's Way, for those more Pathfinderly inclined).

Heck, it's the casters who are robust in general (past the first few levels), and the guys in full plate or with d12 hit dice who are squishy. HP loss is just one way to die in D&D, and high saves and being invisible/displaced/mirrored tend to be the more valuable defenses. Mostly though, the best defense is to make the enemy unable to attack you through the forcecage/wall of stone/etc in his way.

dspeyer
2010-10-11, 10:47 PM
While warblade doesn't get con to AC, it gets it to saves and damage with diamond mind.

Cahokia
2010-10-12, 02:12 AM
For that matter: Binder. Works just as well, or even better.

This gender-ambiguous internetter speaks the truth. Dahlver-Nar's ability to split damage between himself and an enemy makes for a great tank, and it's available from level 3 onwards--and at 1st with the Improved Binding feat. You could even just dip a level for the ability to bind him. I'd suggest a level or two of Knight (or more to actually pick up Test of Mettle--I think the knight gets the ability at 4th level), maybe Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce, or even some Fighter levels for feats if it strikes your fancy, before going into Crusader.

Prime32
2010-10-12, 03:46 AM
It's been said before, but the Tank concept doesn't really mesh well with D&D. Intelligent monsters know to bypass the guy in 60lbs of sheet metal and go straight for the casters. No such thing as "aggro". However, there are a few ways to pull off the defender type role: Lockdown Builds, the Constant and Dutiful Guardian feats (Or Bodyguard and In Harm's Way, for those more Pathfinderly inclined).
The knight has an explicit "draw aggro" ability (and the Goad feat does something similar), while the crusader makes it harder to hurt his allies (by giving them AC boosts while they're next to him, preventing an enemy from making AoOs, etc.)

In homebrew there's Races of War's knight class - IIRC if the enemy they challenged does not attack them the knight deals +1d6 damage per level against them with all attacks(!)

Person_Man
2010-10-12, 10:37 AM
X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

Con to AC:
Deepwarden: Races of Stone
Forsaker: Masters of the Wild
Fist of the Forest: Complete Champion
Binder via Dahlver-Nar Vestige (1/2 Con as Natural Armor bonus)

Hit Points:
Having d12 hit die is mathematically not very important. The difference between d8 hit die and d12 hit die is (on average) 2 hit points per level, or 40 hit points at level 20. Avoiding MAD and making sure your Constitution is as high as possible is much more important.

You might also want to look at Vigor and Vitality Belt (Incarnate Soulmeld). Vitality Belt provides Meldshaper level * essentia invested bonus hit points. So Incarante 20 gets 20 * 6 bonus hit points (the same as 12 points of Constitution), more if he invests in a feat or magic item to up his essentia capacity.

And if hit points are that big of a deal for you, you should look at temporary hit points, swift action healing, vampiric healing, delayed damage, etc. In general, the best tank base classes are; most full casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc), Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Totemist, Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Crusader, or Knight.

Telonius
2010-10-12, 10:45 AM
Generally agreed, d12 is not all it's cracked up to be. That said, here's a list of the PrCs that give d12:

Bear Warrior (CWar)
Champion of G ... not gonna try to spell that (BoED)
Deepwarden (RoS)
Defender of Sealtiel (BoED)
Dragon Disciple (DMG)
Dwarven Defender (DMG)
Eye of Gruumsh (CWar)
Firestorm Berserker (DR314 p.60)
Frenzied Berserker (CWar)
Infused Warrior (DR321 p.19)
Thrall of Baphomet (DR341 p.25)
Thrall of K ... (oh come on now) (DR345 p.27)
Warforged Juggernaut (Eb)

Malbordeus
2010-10-12, 10:52 AM
doesnt one of the marshal abilities allow you to take damage for somone else?

meh, wither way, throwing my fleen in the direction of Dragon shaman as tank. his auras are really annoying for enemies.

Diarmuid
2010-10-12, 12:42 PM
I know this is going to sound strange, but Dragonfire Adept. It has d8 HD and can easily be only Con focused. While they aren't proficient in heavy armor, if you aren't trying to use their invocations in combat (focusing on their breath weapon instead) they can wear it without any real penalties.

You'll be hard pressed to find another class that can have that much HP and AC while still being able to actually do things like crowd control (slow breath).

Are DFA actually proficient with Heavy Armor?

Scow2
2010-10-12, 12:43 PM
Are DFA actually proficient with Heavy Armor?

No, but it doesn't stop them from wearing it.

Diarmuid
2010-10-12, 01:01 PM
True, but it does involve other penalties.

Scow2
2010-10-12, 01:13 PM
True, but it does involve other penalties.

But not against Breath of Slow

Prime32
2010-10-12, 01:23 PM
True, but it does involve other penalties.Most of their invocations either last all day or are worse than their breath weapon. So cast them in the morning before you put on the armour.

Togo
2010-10-12, 05:05 PM
I believe Master of Many Forms to be the best 'Meat Sheilds' in the game. Bar none.

A lot depends on what you mean by 'tank' of course. You've been talking in terms of toughness, but i'd call that a meat shield rather than a tank. Most definitions of 'tank' I've seen combine toughness with a melee fighter-style damage output, something that most optimised defensive casters find more difficult.

Being a Meat Shield works just fine. The monsters may want to go around you and attack the squishy characters, but when your threatened area is 45' across, they simply may not be able to.