Mechanics: tripping snake people?

[heymejack]

I am running a campaign and am thinking about using yuan-ti as some sinister bbeg types, corrupting the city from within and so on. there is a goliath with a spiked chain in the party, and he's a tripping fool. it's going to come up, and find myself wondering...what happens when you try to trip a snake?

[Keld Denar]

Thats...kinda up to your DM. Actual snakes can't be tripped, since they don't use legs for locomotion and have no "prone" state that is different from their normal state. Yuan-ti, however, are upright snakes, so they could technically be knocked over into an unoptimum position. They'd probably get some kind of large stability bonus though, due to the fact that they have lots of surface area in contact with the ground.

Sorry, its just something the rules don't really cover.

[Spiryt]

When you lie snake on it's back, it still must do something to return to it's natural position... Or if you kick it so it becomes all tangles and stuff.

Of course, it's not really as problematic probably, as being put on the buttocks violently for human, but still.

And since Yuan Ti have human like torsos and stuff, it's becoming even easier.

Although bonus from being stable would definitely apply.

[heymejack]

I am running a campaign and...


Thats...kinda up to your DM.

I'm the DM. that's why I'm asking. what have you folks out in the playground done in this situation in the past/what would you suggest?


When you lie snake on it's back, it still must do something to return to it's natural position

And since Yuan Ti have human like torsos and stuff, it's becoming even easier.

Although bonus from being stable would definitely apply.

So maybe they can get back up faster, perhaps as a swift action? And have some kind of bonus to their trip for not having legs? How much..?

[Spiryt]

So maybe they can get back up faster, perhaps as a swift action? And have some kind of bonus to their trip for not having legs? How much..?

Stable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip)

That's standard, I guess it can be suitable...

[Telonius]

The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid.

Yeah, I'd give them the +4 bonus. It doesn't seem like they'd have any less trouble returning to standing, though, so I'd keep it as is.

[Tyger]

For what its worth, there is a Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a) article on the subject. It isn't RAW of course, but it is an interesting read.

Personally I'd read the Yuan-ti as untrippable, as you can't really knock them down - there's nothing under them to swipe out and drop them. But that's a houserule, pure and simple.

Whatever you do work out, be sure to discuss it with your players before roll out. Nothing irks a character built around tripping like being told that there are a fair amount of critters flat out immune to the ability, even if it does make logical sense. Get the players on side first, then work out what you think is reasonable with them.

[Spiryt]

Personally I'd read the Yuan-ti as untrippable, as you can't really knock them down - there's nothing under them to swipe out and drop them. But that's a houserule, pure and simple.


Eh, from purely logical perspective, you can still grab their torso, neck, head, arm, clothing and generally combination of above and slam them to the ground.... In many different ways. Hell, you can even grab them snakish parts and use them to make whole guy more vertical.

How doable would upper body throws, by who and how, and stuff in such case would be different question, but since 3.5 is simple game, and not wrestling simulator, giving them just "stable" seems perfectly sufficient.

[Snake-Aes]

Eh, from purely logical perspective, you can still grab their torso, neck, head, arm, clothing and generally combination of above and slam them to the ground.... In many different ways. Hell, you can even grab them snakish parts and use them to make whole guy more vertical.

How doable would upper body throws, by who and how, and stuff in such case would be different question, but since 3.5 is simple game, and not wrestling simulator, giving them just "stable" seems perfectly sufficient.

This. Tripping isn't even specifically "sweep/lock its legs so he falls". You can trip a flying creature, for example...

I presume the general idea is that if the creature relies on active effort to support itself on its limbs (like a standing nagah or human), it can be tripped. A yuan-ti would be trippable because its torso does stand balanced on the tail. applying the generic "if the creature is 4-legged or otherwise more stable than a humanoid it gets the stability +4 bonus" is sufficient to model the oddities we'd have to trip it.

[mucat]

This. Tripping isn't even specifically "sweep/lock its legs so he falls". You can trip a flying creature, for example...

I presume the general idea is that if the creature relies on active effort to support itself on its limbs (like a standing nagah or human), it can be tripped. A yuan-ti would be trippable because its torso does stand balanced on the tail. applying the generic "if the creature is 4-legged or otherwise more stable than a humanoid it gets the stability +4 bonus" is sufficient to model the oddities we'd have to trip it.

I would give a Yuan-ti at least a +8 stability bonus...it seems that a snake would be more stable than a quadruped, by at least as great a margin as a quadruped is more stable than a biped. (If it were an actual snake, rather than a snakeperson, I would say it can't meaningfully be tripped at all.)

I would also give the Yuan-Ti an advantage for standing up again -- perhaps it still requires a move action, but doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It seems much easier for a snake person to raise their torso up off the floor again, than for a biped or quadruped to get their limbs under them when they've fallen.

[Zaydos]

I'd give them a +4 or +8 bonus versus being tripped for their stability. Getting up again isn't going to be any easier.

[Keld Denar]

This. Tripping isn't even specifically "sweep/lock its legs so he falls". You can trip a flying creature, for example...

Not legs...but definitely limbs. You can trip a gryphon, because it uses limbs (wings) for locomotion, unlike a beholder or a mage with the Fly spell active. You can't trip a fish, because a fish doesn't use limbs for locomotion. It doesn't have to explicitly be legs, but it does have to have limbs. You can't trip an ooze for this exact reason. That said, its debatable whether or not a yuan-ti's snake body is considered a "limb" or not. If you think it is a limb, then they can be tripped. If you don't consider it a limb, then they aren't using limbs for locomotion and thus can't be tripped.

[Scow2]

Tripping also includes flipping things completely upside down. So, you can trip a fish.

And I think wrapping a chain around a beholder and spinning it could achieve a similar effect...

A snake that gets flipped upside-down struggles to flip itself right-side up.

[Keld Denar]

[Citation needed]

EDIT: Rules of the Game (not a valid rules source, but a strong encouragement) contradicts everything you just stated.

[Snake-Aes]

I would give a Yuan-ti at least a +8 stability bonus...it seems that a snake would be more stable than a quadruped, by at least as great a margin as a quadruped is more stable than a biped. (If it were an actual snake, rather than a snakeperson, I would say it can't meaningfully be tripped at all.)

I would also give the Yuan-Ti an advantage for standing up again -- perhaps it still requires a move action, but doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It seems much easier for a snake person to raise their torso up off the floor again, than for a biped or quadruped to get their limbs under them when they've fallen.

I believe that is shelved under "unnecessary complications".

[Yuki Akuma]

Tripping a snake involves something other than just sweeping its legs out from under it. Roll it over onto its back, for instance. They can't move well like that.

Edit: Fish use limbs for locomotion. Look at how a fish swims some time. See those fins?

[Scow2]

It all boils down to this: Do you want to stick with the Rules of the Game, and rule it makes sense a snake-tailed Yuan-Ti can't be tripped (After all, it likely flips and spins itself anyway during combat if it has above 13 Dex), gimping your Trip-guy? Or do you think it's plausible, but very difficult to trip one, and thus give him at least a chance?

All boils down to which you find more fun. But once you make the decision, stand by it for consistency.

Personally, I hate one-trick ponies, so I guess I'd go with "Untrippable"

[Yuki Akuma]

Personally, I hate one-trick ponies, so I guess I'd go with "Untrippable"

So you think all melee characters should be even worse than they already are, huh?

[Scow2]

So you think all melee characters should be even worse than they already are, huh?

No. I tell Melee characters to check out ToB, or be a One-Trick Warhorse (Like a pony, but bigger and incredibly more awesome)

[Snake-Aes]

No. I tell Melee characters to check out ToB, or be a One-Trick Warhorse (Like a pony, but bigger and incredibly more awesome)
Contradictorily to what you say, nerfing trips nerfs ToB characters just as much as it does all other melees. Any melee concerned with field control trips and has Stand-Still, and this is no different for ToB.

[awa]

i would just give them the +4 an be done with it. i might not let someone trip a snake but the yuan ti has to keep that human torso up in the air leaving them vulnerable.
I see no reason that a snake person should have an easier time getting up then a human it still needs to bring its upper body to normal height.

I disagree with the person who thinks one trick pony's are bad so we should take away one of the very few viable tricks melee has to remain relevant. removing tripping will just mean the fighter can only contribute through damage rather then battlefield control and damage.

And the grand scheme of things will removing the ability to trip these monsters make your game collectively more fun? if so go for it if not give them the +4 bonus for being more stable (or even no bonuses). enjoying the game is more important than the rules.

[heymejack]

as far as gimping the tripper goes, he and I agree that if he trips EVERYthing that moves, it's no fun, and we also agree that if he never gets to trip anything, that's no fun either. there will be plenty of 2 leggers around, and he will have plenty of them prone. but the big mamma snake isn't gonna be so easy.

i like giving them a +8 against the trip, plus making getting up a move action that does not provoke. because it's a smoother stand up.

any further thoughts?