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AtwasAwamps
2010-10-12, 03:59 PM
TL;DR – Player in my group I detest is returning and I need a place to vent.

Original Thread/Rant: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139257

The original thread is very old, please do not necro it.

I am angry. I am livid. I am every word for angry that you could come up with potentially.

For the past few months, I have been…in essence…the leader of my group of roleplayers. There are three games currently in rotation and I’ve been the one overseeing the schedule, keeping track of who is running what when, and doing the lion’s share of DMing. I have taken over main DM duties to give the other main DM a break, since he wanted time to work on his game. I have been the one making sure food gets ordered, that everyone gets heard, and that things get moving, despite the fact that the game isn’t even at my house and that I’m by far the newest member of the group. In the past few months, the group has come to me with questions and asked me for help. I didn’t want this to happen…I don’t really LIKE leading groups…but things have, in general, been a bit better since they have occurred and I’ve been thanked for shouldering the burden. I’ve offered, repeatedly, to back off if I’m being overbearing, but have been told not to.

Much of this occurred because the player mentioned in the original thread, D, who I essentially cannot stand, had to stop playing due to work and RL commitments. There were…no actual objections to this, with the exception of one player, L, who was the only person really fond of D to begin with. Last week, while I was running my game, one of my players mentioned that D was looking to play again. L asked if I’d let him play in my games and I said “I’m sorry, but nothing has changed since I last told you no.” And it hasn’t. D remains, from my interactions with him since then, a bigoted, ignorant, rude, and disrespectful person who I do not enjoy playing with, who cheats, rules lawyers, and needlessly antagonizes me and my characters. I know my sentiments are echoed by a few people in the group, but I also know they won’t say a word against D because of deference for L, who was the guy who put the group together.

Today, I got a text message from L.

“Bring your stuff just in case, but D is coming tomorrow so you aren’t running.”

What.

I spend 3-5 hours a week prepping my games for these guys. This is in addition to working a full time job, freelancing during my nights for extra cash, and maintaining a long distance relationship with my girlfriend who only moved recently. I love to DM. I love these guys. And I hate the fact that out of nowhere, this has cropped up again. At best, this means my ability to run is going to be slashed in half. At worst, I’ll run once a month. In addition, this means that I will have to deal with D again, and that alone is enough to make me want to cringe.

I’m dropping a line to the guy whose house we play at, alerting him to the fact that if D’s return is permanent, I will be considering leaving the group. I’m very close to him and his girlfriend, so they are the most comfortable people for me to talk to about this issue…not to mention the fact that they both feel the same way about D as I do.

There’s no real point to this post. I needed a place to vent while I consider solutions to my problem and venting out loud only causes me to steam out the ears with little catharsis. If you’ve read all this, thanks for listening/reading. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I’m most likely over-reacting, but there’s a good chance tomorrow’s the last day I play with these folks. Should be…interesting, to say the least.

I swear to god he says one more offensive thing about women (who he refers to as heifers, mind you) or homosexuality (not even going to provide examples) and I’m just going to get up and clock him in the face.

Morph Bark
2010-10-12, 04:05 PM
What.

This would be my reaction exactly. Seriously, if a new player wants to come in on short notice, that isn't so bad (much less so if it is an old player returning, but much more so if it is an old player who was a troublemaker to the group). If you suddenly get to hear someone else is going to DM though? For no real reason other than them returning to the group? That's just cold. Something like that should be introduced a session beforehand (a week or what-have-you).

But this guy? Oh, ugh no. I see your feelings here. Hope things won't go too badly, D won't show up or such, or it somehow will be solved.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-12, 04:09 PM
or it somehow will be solved.

I abhor confrontational violence in real-life, social setting. But I haven't met someone whose face I wanted to stove in more since middle school. And I had a tough time in middle school! I wear glasses, after all!

Lapak
2010-10-12, 04:12 PM
If this fell out as presented, your problem is not just with D, but with L. That's incredibly rude for several reasons - the way it's presented as a final decision, rather than a discussion; the no-notice; the fact that it ignores your prior concerns about D - all of this shows little respect for you or your feelings from L.

So yeah; unless there's a pretty significant and immediate attitude adjustment I'd be leaving that group. Hopefully the other members of the group besides D and L are on your side on this, and willing to step up and say so.

J.Gellert
2010-10-12, 04:13 PM
I swear to god he says one more offensive thing about women (who he refers to as heifers, mind you) or homosexuality (not even going to provide examples) and I’m just going to get up and clock him in the face.

Give him one from me, too, if it comes to that.

I hope everything works out for you..! I am sorry I can't say more, but I am quite blue tonight myself.

Magic Myrmidon
2010-10-12, 04:15 PM
Ouch. I haven't read the previous topic (might later. Don't feel like doing anything productive today) but that's just... enraging. But if it's only two people, like people have said, maybe the others will be on your side.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-12, 04:17 PM
If this fell out as presented, your problem is not just with D, but with L. That's incredibly rude for several reasons - the way it's presented as a final decision, rather than a discussion; the no-notice; the fact that it ignores your prior concerns about D - all of this shows little respect for you or your feelings from L.

So yeah; unless there's a pretty significant and immediate attitude adjustment I'd be leaving that group. Hopefully the other members of the group besides D and L are on your side on this, and willing to step up and say so.

In retrospect, L has been distancing himself from me as of late, potentially because he knew this was coming. I actually feel bad for L...he's in a very tough spot. D is one of his closest, longest-time friends, especially in gaming, and he's aware of both my feelings and the feelings of others in the group about D. I'm hurt that he chose this way to deal with it, but understanding of it to some extent...D's like a brother to him and while he may not agree with everything from D's mouth, he won't fight him or hurt his feelings. I'd honestly feel bad for D about the way people hide how they feel about him if I didn't have enough reasons to dislike him as a human being.

To be fair, you guys only get a one-sided view and I'm probably ludicrously biased, so take that as you will.


Give him one from me, too, if it comes to that.

I hope everything works out for you..! I am sorry I can't say more, but I am quite blue tonight myself.

Punch Count: 2

Panigg
2010-10-12, 04:18 PM
Well, I see this as either you leave or D and L leave.

Talk it through with your group and see who they want to keep more.

akma
2010-10-12, 04:20 PM
Heifers? I checked in a dictionery and appearently it means cart. That doesn`t make any sense, how come it`s an offensive to woman phrase?
Also, there could always be to parties - one with you and without D, and one without you and with D.

aquaticrna
2010-10-12, 04:23 PM
if its an issue and you know that the other people in your group really don't like the guy then just take the people who don't want him around and make your own group... if that means you have to lose someone you'd rather not lose then give them to either play with you guys and not D or not play with you at all... its very hard to enjoy a game when you don't enjoy the people you're playing with.

good luck, hope it works out.

Lapak
2010-10-12, 04:27 PM
To be fair, you guys only get a one-sided view and I'm probably ludicrously biased, so take that as you will.Perhaps, but L could protect D's feelings and yours by not presenting this decision as a fait accompli. Asking:
"Hey, D is coming and would really like to run the game. I'd like to let him, since he hasn't played with us in a while - are you okay with that?"
just for an example. That would have been a far, far better way to present this to you.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-12, 04:32 PM
Heifers? I checked in a dictionery and appearently it means cart. That doesn`t make any sense, how come it`s an offensive to woman phrase?

Heifer is a female cow.

And hot dang, that's a hard decision... but since you have the majority on your side, just put it to a vote?

Edit: Give him a Falcon Punch for me.

elpollo
2010-10-12, 04:33 PM
This thread exploded a little bit whilst I was drafting this post, and some people have already said what I was planning to say. The main point of it was:

What are the other players saying? Do they not care? Are they even aware that this change has happened?

Also "violence is the last refuge of the incompetant" and all that jazz. I'm always amazed when adults think "Punch him some more" is advice.

jiriku
2010-10-12, 04:38 PM
My sympathies. We all know that gaming groups (and sometimes friendships) don't last forever, but it still sucks to be standing there when the excrement strikes the air circulation device. Especially if you've devoted considerable time and effort to ensuring that your group had a good time, only to be treated dismissively when a conflict arises.

The good news is that your city is full of gamers, and 95% of them are probably fun people to hang out with. If you form your own group, you can even invite select members of the previous group to game with you. Plus, as the architect of the group (especially if you host it), you have the authority to ensure that shenanigans like these don't occur again.

Kylarra
2010-10-12, 04:42 PM
Well, I'd strongly advise a group discussion type deal, sans D, after the next session. Lay out your concerns with the way L handled things and whatnot. Suddenly adding another person to the group that there are known issues with, without prior discussion is not the way group decisions should be handled.

This is, of course, assuming that D is the same as before.

prufock
2010-10-12, 04:45 PM
Today, I got a text message from L.

“Bring your stuff just in case, but D is coming tomorrow so you aren’t running.”

"Have fun without me."


I’m dropping a line to the guy whose house we play at

This is a bit of a convoluted problem, but essentially you won't play with the offensive guy, L wants the offensive guy to play. L is willing to have you not play to get him in. The game actually happens at some other guy's house, so really he has final say who gets onto his property.

The only advice I can give is simple: do not play if you will not enjoy it. However, offer to DM games any time, making it clear who is and is not invited. Be clear why.

You have made a judgment: playing is not worth dealing with the offensive player. They will make a judgment: whether having the offensive player is worth losing you from the group.

Si-on
2010-10-13, 07:11 AM
I have been in a situation similar to this. I was playing in a twice a week for several years. I considered the dm to be my closest friend and always enjoyed the game and spending time with the group. We ruled that if a new players wanted to join every member must agree.
I turned up to the game one session and the rest of the group were gathered waiting. The dm asked me if I would mind if one of the other players friend's joined the group. I had played a couple of campaigns with this person in the past and we just did not get on. We had very different play styles and our personalities clashed. The dm knew my dislike for him. I told the group that I would not be happy for him to join us.
Turns out asking me was just a formality. The dm and other player had asked the rest of the group between sessions and all had agreed. The new player had been accepted and was joining us the next session. My opinion didnt matter.
The best arguement the group had in his favor was that we needed an extra player. I politely informed the group that I couldnt play with the new member and I also didnt like being stabbed in the back by people who I thought were my friends.
I want to have fun when I play so I decided I would rather not play with people I didnt like or trust.
This freed up two nights a week for me to see my other friends. After 6 months I joined a new group with an old friend and have been very happy with them for the last 3 years.
My advice is to stick to your guns. Go with your feelings, you may find it opens happier gaming doors for you.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 07:23 AM
The only advice I can give is simple: do not play if you will not enjoy it. However, offer to DM games any time, making it clear who is and is not invited. Be clear why.

You have made a judgment: playing is not worth dealing with the offensive player. They will make a judgment: whether having the offensive player is worth losing you from the group.

This, +1.

Also, give him a good face stoving(?) for me if it comes down to it.

Greenish
2010-10-13, 07:29 AM
I am angry. I am livid. I am every word for angry that you could come up with potentially.Only potentially?

So, which ones don't fit: irate, mad, annoyed, cross, vexed, irritated, indignant, irked, furious, enraged, infuriated, in a temper, incensed, raging, fuming, seething, beside oneself, choleric, outraged, livid, apoplectic, berserk, hot under the collar, up in arms, in high dudgeon, foaming at the mouth, doing a slow burn, steamed up, in a lather, fit to be tied, seeing red, sore, bent out of shape, ticked off, teed off, PO'd, wrathful? :smallwink:

Let it all out! Join the Dark Side!

Heifer is a female cow.More specifically, a female cow that hasn't had calves yet.

Tytalus
2010-10-13, 07:52 AM
The only advice I can give is simple: do not play if you will not enjoy it. However, offer to DM games any time, making it clear who is and is not invited. Be clear why.

You have made a judgment: playing is not worth dealing with the offensive player. They will make a judgment: whether having the offensive player is worth losing you from the group.

+1.

Don't underestimate how important it is to be clear about what you want. I've been in groups where very legitimate concern about a player was repeatedly discussed, but always dismissed because "he can change" or "he'll tune it down". To the point where some other players felt like he had become a friend and felt too awkward to ask him to leave after having played with him for so long.

Keep it rational and polite, but stick to your decision.

panaikhan
2010-10-13, 07:54 AM
I was in this kind of situation some time back. Thankfully, the person in question simply quit coming to the game sessions.

my 2cp? find another group, or form a new one with the people from this group that share your feelings. I wouldn't punch someone for what you have described, I'd set fire to their dice.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 08:06 AM
I wouldn't punch someone for what you have described, I'd set fire to their dice.

Which is worse than getting punched in the face, IMO.

jiriku
2010-10-13, 08:22 AM
Wait. Dice burn?

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 08:26 AM
Wait. Dice burn?

With enough accelerant, anything burns.

Diarmuid
2010-10-13, 08:33 AM
I'll echo what someone else asked. How many other people make up this group? Did L just dictate this to everyone? Why does he get to make such a decision? I'm guessing that it'e because the game happens at his house in which case you're pretty much boned unless someone else has the ability to host the game.

Who
2010-10-13, 08:45 AM
Wait. Dice burn?

Sure, everything does if you use enough fire.:smalltongue:

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-13, 09:05 AM
I'll echo what someone else asked. How many other people make up this group? Did L just dictate this to everyone? Why does he get to make such a decision? I'm guessing that it'e because the game happens at his house in which case you're pretty much boned unless someone else has the ability to host the game.

The group is made up of 7 people, counting D. We do not play at L's house. We play at Y and K's house. Y, K, D, L, I, and J have been friends for years. I joined them last year.

L essentially does dictate who's in and who's out. He started the group years ago and has essentially been running it. When I joined, because of my ability to absorb information and the fact that I have an assertive personality, the group started looking to me as a secondary leader after a few months. Prior to this, D was the other DM in the group, running 4e games that resulted in a lot of bad blood and frustration (I could go for a while on this, but I won't).

Currently in the group, me, Y, and K are not happy about D's return. That's half the current group. I and J are neutral about it. L is pretty happy.

Not sure what's going to happen tonight. Y and K are fairly volatile people and K actually hates D...more than I do. It should be noted that K is the only woman in our group.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 09:10 AM
So this guy openly insults women at a table with a woman?


I just don't know what to say to that. It's so mind bogglingly stupid.

Greenish
2010-10-13, 09:13 AM
So this guy openly insults women at a table with a woman?Well, maybe he just doesn't consider "heifer" offensive.

…Though I'm not sure that's any better.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-13, 09:13 AM
So this guy openly insults women at a table with a woman?


I just don't know what to say to that. It's so mind bogglingly stupid.

No. The stupid part is it starts a fight, every time, and he's still there. K was....let's just say K has been having a lot of fun without D at the table and she's probably more upset about tonight than I am.

Tharck
2010-10-13, 09:18 AM
I would say put the past behind you. If you are really shouldering the responsibility of being "leader" to this group then I would suggest keeping it together. As you've already shown you respect "L" and feel him distancing himself from you for "D". Half the group is split. I'd say dont talk "D" up, or down, be respectful and friendly and go and have fun. "D" is entitled to his own opinion, even if it differs from the norm and is disrespectful.

Informing others if they allow someone else to play you might quit really doesn't help. All that road leads to is bad or hurt feelings and making friends make choices about friends. Show your support to the group as a whole by trying to keep it together.

That's my advice.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-13, 09:36 AM
Well, maybe he just doesn't consider "heifer" offensive.

…Though I'm not sure that's any better.

Maybe cows turn him on?

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 09:39 AM
Wait. What? The group you're in isn't a democracy?

Keeping the group together may not be an option at this point, as not everyone is having fun with those particular people in the group. I'd probably stage a walk out, leaving 'L' and 'D' sitting at the table, staring at each other. Maybe they'll get the point. Hurt feelings can go to hell. If everyone in the group is not having fun, and the point of commonality is 'D', it seems like 'D' is the issue, not the rest of the group. Gaming should be fun for everybody at the table, not just a select few.

EDIT:
@Starbuck II: Ew. Just, ew. :smalleek:

Kylarra
2010-10-13, 10:07 AM
If it's at Y & K's house and K hates D, you should really, really, really have a discussion about it afterwards. Again, assuming D hasn't changed. Ultimately, you may have to split the group or at least explain to L that at least 2 people in the group strongly dislike D, and one of those people is the host or co-host, and as such, L shouldn't be inviting D willy-nilly.

prufock
2010-10-13, 01:02 PM
PS: I, for one, would be curious to know what you decide and how it goes.

Sipex
2010-10-13, 01:15 PM
I'm surprised anyone is standing for this.

Have you talked to Y & K about starting your own game which L and D aren't invited to?

Amphetryon
2010-10-13, 01:29 PM
Wait. What? The group you're in isn't a democracy?

Keeping the group together may not be an option at this point, as not everyone is having fun with those particular people in the group. I'd probably stage a walk out, leaving 'L' and 'D' sitting at the table, staring at each other. Maybe they'll get the point. Hurt feelings can go to hell. If everyone in the group is not having fun, and the point of commonality is 'D', it seems like 'D' is the issue, not the rest of the group. Gaming should be fun for everybody at the table, not just a select few.

This, except I'd alter the advice based on the fact that it's Y & K's house. Contact everyone except L & D and make sure they're there early. This isn't for dirty tactics, but solidarity. When L & D show up, everyone else just explains that D is not a positive influence on the game and, regardless of L's declarations to the contrary, the rest of you don't want him there for game night. Because the group is meeting at Y & K's house, Y & K are asking politely that D leaves. L doesn't have to like it, but either respects their rights in their house, or leaves.

At this point, they either get the hint or not. L doesn't actually have the right to dictate who Y & K allow into their house to socialize, though. D staying after he's been informed that the owners would prefer he leave takes the whole scenario into Lanky Bugger territory.

Sipex
2010-10-13, 01:35 PM
You have to make sure not to include the neutral parties AT ALL, not even in the house if you have a confrontation unless they want to be there. Think about it.

Say you're in one of their positions, you don't really care, you can see what everyone is complaining about but it simply doesn't bug you and you don't want to be involved. Suddenly, you're at a confrontation between the two groups who are both probably bugging you to side with them.

Scow2
2010-10-13, 02:05 PM
Wait... if it's K and Y's house, they get the final say in what happens. they have full rights to say D can't come, and L has to make the choice.

How is L in charge, when it seems you got that position as well?

Sipex
2010-10-13, 02:10 PM
Wait... if it's K and Y's house, they get the final say in what happens. they have full rights to say D can't come, and L has to make the choice.

How is L in charge, when it seems you got that position as well?

They're in a seniority arrangement by force from the sounds of it. L started the group and nobody wants to hurt his feelings.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-13, 02:30 PM
They're in a seniority arrangement by force from the sounds of it. L started the group and nobody wants to hurt his feelings.

Bingo.

L started the group, got everything together, taught everyone but me how to play. Nobody wants to push him about D. Fact is, they've pushed before and L said he'd tell D to back off and play nice. I don't know if that conversation was had, but nothing changed. L won't really accept that D is not welcome at the table and he's the recruiter/seniority fellow at the table.

Sucks, but nobody wants to hurt a friend's feelings, ya know?

Hyudra
2010-10-13, 03:09 PM
Sucks, but nobody wants to hurt a friend's feelings, ya know?

I might venture to say that feelings are going to be hurt regardless. It might do to rip off the bandaid rather than prolong the experience.

If you're not someone who thrives in direct confrontation, perhaps write a letter?

Either way, it seems like you feel like you're up against both K & D, and feel a little helpless in that regard. I recommend communicating & building an alliance/solid front with the others in the group.

Quietus
2010-10-13, 03:15 PM
Is the game always held at K and.. I can't remember the other initial ..'s house?

I'd say, if that's the case.. give it a try. Bring your game. Let D play in it, under the strict contract of "No broken crap, play nice with everyone", and the 30 second rule on rule disputes - You get 30 seconds (which usually becomes 1-2 minutes, but whatever) to present your issue. The DM (you) makes a call. If you don't like it, talk to him about it after the game.

If D continues to be a D-bag, then talk to K and hubby afterward. It's their house, and they have the same opinion as you do. They're well within their rights to say "No, I don't want D in my home". Also important, do THEY know that D is going to be there, or is this something where L simply said "D is coming", and only informed you because you're running the game?

tl;dr - Give D one chance, on strict rule of "Screw around and you're out". Then when he screws around, kick him out.

Douglas
2010-10-13, 03:45 PM
Is the game always held at K and.. I can't remember the other initial ..'s house?

I'd say, if that's the case.. give it a try. Bring your game. Let D play in it, under the strict contract of "No broken crap, play nice with everyone", and the 30 second rule on rule disputes - You get 30 seconds (which usually becomes 1-2 minutes, but whatever) to present your issue. The DM (you) makes a call. If you don't like it, talk to him about it after the game.

If D continues to be a D-bag, then talk to K and hubby afterward. It's their house, and they have the same opinion as you do. They're well within their rights to say "No, I don't want D in my home". Also important, do THEY know that D is going to be there, or is this something where L simply said "D is coming", and only informed you because you're running the game?

tl;dr - Give D one chance, on strict rule of "Screw around and you're out". Then when he screws around, kick him out.
If I'm reading the quoted message from L right, it's not "D is coming to play in your game," but rather "D is coming to run his own game." D is coming not just to play, but also to displace the DM - apparently unilaterally.

Dealing with this by any reasonable means other than putting up with it or leaving the group will require united action from a large portion of the group. Talk with the other players before hand and see if you can get an agreement to issue a joint declaration that no, D is not displacing the DM and running his own game right now, and if he wants to play in the current game he has precisely one session to demonstrate that his behavior has improved. If he acts like he did before, he will be permanently uninvited. If you can get Y and K to sign on to this and explicitly reference their authority as game hosts to unilaterally uninvite him from their house, you might be able to make it stick. If you can't get a group agreement for what to do, you're probably just stuck with it unless you're willing to walk out over this.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-13, 04:01 PM
If you can't get a group agreement for what to do, you're probably just stuck with it unless you're willing to walk out over this.

Which I am. So, I'm heading out the door now to deal with this tonight.

Thanks for the words of wisdom, advice, and support. I really appreciate it.

EDIT: Everyone has been apprised of D's attendance today, it's not a miraculous surprise, but not everyone is happy about it.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 04:04 PM
Which I am. So, I'm heading out the door now to deal with this tonight.

Thanks for the words of wisdom, advice, and support. I really appreciate it.

Unfortunately all I can really do to help is wish you good luck.

Good luck!

Sipex
2010-10-13, 04:10 PM
Remember.

No murder.

Doesn't matter how much of a jerk he is, the only thing murder will accomplish is getting you thrown in jail.

And about 100 articles about how evil D&D did this to the poor honest boy.

Iceforge
2010-10-13, 04:26 PM
I am bit regretful I didnt see this post before now, as you have already gone to the session from the looks of it, and any advice I write is thus pretty useless.

Seems like a pretty bad situation that you are in, and by you, I mean everybody in the group except D and L.

I personally only had to deal with a bad player issue once, and he was not yet a friend, by my standards, but not someone I felt ill towards, but he does towards me now, after he was no longer invited to continue playing in our game.

The problem of D is pretty obvious from your posts, but the even bigger problem in my eyes is L.

L seems to, judging from your posts anyway, be of the impression that the group is, despite where the play session happens or who is DM, his group, and that he is ultimately in 100% charge of the group.

I am a bit confrontational in nature, specially if I was in your position.

While some would say that it could lead to hurt feelings and everything else. I would simply start up the session by calmly asking out loud, while directing it to L by looking at him.
"Am I worth less in this group due to not having been in it for as many years as the rest of you?"

Yes, I am tricky like that, cause now you turn the tables on L.

Instead of the confrontation being about you attacking L, L will either have to say either "Yes" or "No" to the question.

If he says "Yes", then he is the one attacking you, explain that you do not think that is fair, as you put a lot of effort and work into you all having fun, and you lead the games usually, and ask how come you are worth less taking that into consideration.

Most likely, he will say "no", and be a acting a bit like that is a strange thing to ask, then simply ask "If i am not worth less than you, then how come that while I am DM'ing a game, run at K and Y's house, that you decide that D is going to take over, like you are worth more than me?"

Then he will have to give some reasons for why he did what he did, and will try to do that without having to imply that he is in charge of the group, or if he implies or directly says that he is in charge, then ask if he is worth more than the other individuals in the group?

Yes, it would be very underhanded, yes, manipulatively designed to try and make him the bad guy who has to go against either you or the entire group infront of you and the rest of the group.

Above all, remain calm, maybe the anger of D and L will flare as you start roasting the subject, but remain calm and if they start telling you not to ask those questions, simply ask "why not? You are just curious as to how come they think they have the right to do what they did"

Yes, this does hold all the rest of the group hostage to the entire situation, and yes, it will do the undesired "turn friends against friends", but L has already done this.

Don't for a second think or blame yourself for it, if you do something like this, thinking you are sturring things up between friends, no, L sturred things up and turned friends against friends, when he decided that he had the right to dictate what the rest of you should be doing and put himself in charge, like some dictator.

Some here have suggested you take the highroad and try and get the group to get along, but honestly, unless L changes very quickly, he should not be in your group.

D is a none-issue, he should not have been invited in the first place, in my eyes, the real big issue is L, who is being a real jerk, and who must think he is in charge/worth more than you, since he thinks he can do what he did.

I would not accept it, but do not put it up as an ultimatum if you can avoid it, because if you put up the ultimatum up flat, then it will seem, to the rest, as if you are putting friends against friends, and then usually the one putting up the ultimatum is the one to suffer the consequences.

You can, however, put up an ultimatum the moment L or D indicates you are worth less than they are to the group or claim in any way that they have the right to do what they did, as then they have already insulted all the rest around the table

Sliver
2010-10-13, 04:57 PM
"Have fun without me."

That would be my reaction. If there is someone I don't stand and nobody else enjoys playing with, he isn't joining. They are friends, great. Friends should understand when they aren't welcome. You can't do everything you like with your friends. It just doesn't always work this way. If L isn't mature enough to admit that, you should discuss the others about starting your own group.

Otherwise, things won't change. Every time D wants to play, L will force everybody else into accepting it. Friends don't have the right to dictate when you get to have fun or not. If they try to, you should reevaluate how much their friendship means to you.

"You can't have fun because I have a friend who I know you don't enjoy playing with and I don't want him to be left out, so yes, you five can suck it up because us two are more important." =/= A good friend.

A DM and 4 players is enough for a game. I would do a lot to have that many.

Elfin
2010-10-13, 05:59 PM
Give him one from me, too, if it comes to that.


Me, too; this guy sounds really annoying, and I can't believe anyone would be that rude.
But you should consider talking with L, as well, to try to work something out with him and see how he feels about the whole situation.
Hope everything works out. :smallsmile:

The Oakenshield
2010-10-13, 06:03 PM
Good luck.:smallwink:

Morph Bark
2010-10-13, 06:13 PM
Which I am. So, I'm heading out the door now to deal with this tonight.

Thanks for the words of wisdom, advice, and support. I really appreciate it.

EDIT: Everyone has been apprised of D's attendance today, it's not a miraculous surprise, but not everyone is happy about it.

Godspeed, may good karma prevail.

Mikka
2010-10-13, 06:42 PM
Ohh my god this is even better than gossip girl. . the last season at least.

You HAVE to tell us how it went : O

panaikhan
2010-10-14, 07:21 AM
Which is worse than getting punched in the face, IMO.

I know, which is why I said it.

Sorry for the late post btw.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 07:46 AM
Alright, AtwasAwamps, time to dish the dirt. How'd it go?

One Step Two
2010-10-14, 07:57 AM
I am also intrigued to know what happend. It sounds very tense.

Also, I know it's a little late, but really, don't resort to violence. It's never satisfying as advertised.

Sliver
2010-10-14, 08:02 AM
Also, I know it's a little late, but really, don't resort to violence. It's never satisfying as advertised.

Unless you are clearly stronger... :smalltongue:

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 08:11 AM
Unless you are clearly stronger... :smalltongue:

Or more devious...:smallwink:

Sipex
2010-10-14, 08:15 AM
Atlas clearly isn't posting the results because he is now on the run from the law.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 08:25 AM
Atlas clearly isn't posting the results because he is now on the run from the law.

Not devious enough, perhaps?

Sipex
2010-10-14, 08:27 AM
Maybe devious didn't work?

Or maybe he just took a blowtorch to L's car for good measure?

Watch the news tonight to find out.

Morph Bark
2010-10-14, 08:28 AM
Atlas clearly isn't posting the results because he is now on the run from the law.

Or, y'know, sleeping it off so that this day may have a better start than the previous one ended.

Or he could be busy with school or work or such, but that is just too unlikely to be more probable than a chicken crossing the road.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 08:31 AM
Or, y'know, sleeping it off so that this day may have a better start than the previous one ended.

Or he could be busy with school or work or such, but that is just too unlikely to be more probable than a chicken crossing the road.

Clearly, this is highly improbable. Aren't we all rabid posters here? Or was that 'rabbit toasters'...I can never get that one straight...:smallconfused:

Sipex
2010-10-14, 08:45 AM
Um.

It was a joke?

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-14, 09:04 AM
Well…that was unexpected.

Pre-Session:

On my way over, I spoke to Y and K via cell phone. As mentioned before, they were not happy about D’s return, but were unable to voice it.

And then, due to a schedule mix-up, it was L who came to pick me up from the train station. I decided, at that point, I might as well tell L the score. I told him, flat out, that I wasn’t happy about being shunted aside as a DM because D was coming back, that I deserved more of a warning, and that he should know, being a DM for as long as he has been, that putting in a significant amount of prep work for a game and then being told “No” is vastly irritating. I then informed him that I (not bringing Y and K into it) was not very happy about D’s return to the group, that he’d been consistently offensive to me and others, that he was not particularly fun to play with, and that I did not have the patience or inclination to be shunted aside or forced to play with someone I dislike to that degree.

L (Paraphrased…this essentially summing about 20 minutes of conversation during a drive): “I know. And I’m sorry. Fact of the matter is, I’ve had more fun without D here too. I know that you, Y, and K have issues with him, and I know that his personality is grating, not to mention his playstyle…not having him around meant I didn’t have to watch people hate my oldest friend and the tension in the group was stupidly lowered. I shouldn’t have sent you the text I did yesterday…I should’ve called you and asked if it was okay. But the fact is I’ve been lying to D fairly consistently about what we’ve been doing…he doesn’t even know you’re running a 4.0 game, because I didn’t want to hurt his feelings. He’s under the impression that we just haven’t been playing all that much and he’s joining in Zak’s game and Jo’s game. We’ll run those when he’s here and your game will remain exclusive to the people you want in it. He won’t be running another game.

I’m asking you to give him one more chance. I’ve talked to him extensively and tried to make sure that he’s going to be on his best behavior. The fact is that he really likes playing with the crew and when I explained to him why people were upset to him, he didn’t understand it. Not till recently.

I will find a way to make sure there is time for your game to be played and to make sure its at a time where its convenient for you, not just willy-nilly. You’ve put more work into you’re DMing than any of the other people at the table and it shows. You’re the only reason we actually enjoy DnD 4e in this group. I know that if I push too hard on the D thing, you’ll leave, and I know that it won’t be a secret as to why, even if you keep it like that, and the fact is…that’ll mean D will be booted from the group just to bring you back, regardless of how I feel. We’ve already lost good players because of him, but I know nobody’s going to let us lose a good DM for that reason.

I know you gave him a chance already. I’m asking for one more. Just for a few sessions. You don’t have to let him in your game and we’ll work out a schedule where you can run yours. Just please give him one more chance. Everyone else is going to follow your lead on this one. He’s my best friend.”

AA: “…I hate you and your heartfelt pleas. Fine.”

Session:

It went…okay.

D was obviously on his best behavior. He caught himself when he was about to do a few things that he knew would risk our ire—He didn’t once talk about his “stable of easy heifers”, mostly keeping his conversation to movies, pop culture, and the game itself. He caught himself before making a racist joke and then again before making a racist comment about my race. Not the best, but it was clear he was trying.

Unfortunately, he hadn’t changed his playstyle. His character showed up, insulted all of us, told us we were worthless, and tried to spotlight hog during RP and unfortunately Zak isn’t a good enough DM to hold that off…and we were given almost no reason to trust his character in the situation of the group, which meant we had to simply go along with it for the sake of the DM (it was a complicated, poorly orchestrated meeting scenario when a much simpler one would’ve done, but I’m not sure whose fault that is).

Unfortunately, things started getting a little sour towards the end of the session. First off, he discovered that I was running a 4e game, especially when other members of the group looked to me before him for rule adjudication when the DM was stymied…prior to this, he was the 4e expert in the group and he hadn’t expected to be supplanted. In addition, he prides himself on his optimization of characters (which is poor, to be honest…he entered the game with an assault swordmage with higher strength than int)—but when others took my advice over his while we were planning out later levels, he was extremely upset. Finally, in combat in the game itself, my character is fairly well-built Battlerager fighter with a lot of damage-oriented abilities, rendering me the party’s “striker with a mark”, roughly on par with the barbarian–which simply made D very jealous.

As the night wore on, he started making snide remarks about my character, in game and out, double checking my math, and generally trying to catch me out in a mistake or ‘cheating’. He also started getting impatient in combat, as the majority of the defender work was done by myself and the battlemind, with his mark less of a deterrant and his feeble basic attacks less than impressive by a long shot when his mark went off—he started to snap at people and was visibly upset when the barbarian’s rampage ability caused his turn to extend and frankly, become absolutely devastating.

The night ended a bit earlier than usual, since D had to go. As he left, L left with him, sending me a text that said “Was he better?”

The general consensus is that yes, D was better. But Y and K are…skeptical. This isn’t the first time D has “shaped up” and t hey have a feeling that it will not last…just as it hasn’t lasted in the past. But I have L’s assurance that when push comes to shove, if we want D gone, L will accept it and deliver the news himself.

This is D’s last chance, it appears. The group has come to an understanding and whether he realizes it or not, despite the fact that’s he’s been told, he’s got to keep himself in line. Because if he doesn’t, he’ll be out of a group, regardless of friends and ties.

So no, I didn’t punch him or light anyone on fire. L was extremely understanding, D was…better…and there are no neutral parties left in the group. Everyone wants to see D shape up, or they will ship him out.

I am not on the run from the law. And to be fair, it would probably be considered justifiable in any case. I might get a medal.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 09:13 AM
Well…that was unexpected.

Wall'o'text.

Doesn't sound better to me, if he has to 'catch himself' before saying something ignorant. And his attitude doesn't seem much improved, from your description of his previous behaviour. I'm with Y and K...skeptical (at best).

One Step Two
2010-10-14, 09:14 AM
You're a good dude for giving D a final shot, you owed that much to L. Your skepticism may not be completely unwarranted, but take his attitude with a grain of salt, learning people you consider your friends (whether they view him as one in kind is another matter) are doing stuff behind your back stings. Maybe after another chat with L he will calm down, and become a little more civil in the future. At the very least, you know that it won't come to an out-right confrontation, and L knows that sometimes, no matter how hard we try, not all of our friends will be friendly with eachother.

Quietus
2010-10-14, 09:14 AM
Sounds like things went as well as could be reasonably expected. Sucks that D's still got an issue with powergaming, but as I can personally attest to, that's a tendency that while it can be brought under control, it's generally a life-long thing that'll hover over his shoulder when making characters. It's really just a matter of time granting it some softened edges, which will hopefully happen.

As a heads up, you mentioned J and Z's real names... don't know if that was intentional or not, or even if they were part of the original string of letters. Just a heads up.

Good luck in the future with him, hopefully things continue to improve!


Doesn't sound better to me, if he has to 'catch himself' before saying something ignorant. And his attitude doesn't seem much improved, from your description of his previous behaviour. I'm with Y and K...skeptical (at best).

Now, to be fair, things like that can be habits. I've got joking habits from one group that don't mesh well with my current, so I sometimes have to 'catch myself' when I'm about to make something that will grate against my new friend's nerves. It might get better with time, if D is open to change, but if not it'll show itself soon enough.

Il_Vec
2010-10-14, 09:16 AM
I'm pleased to see that L was understanding in this matter, it feels like a lead-in to a happy ending.




He caught himself before making a racist joke and then again before making a racist comment about my race.

Just a question. Isn't your race, like, human?

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-14, 09:20 AM
As a heads up, you mentioned J and Z's real names... don't know if that was intentional or not, or even if they were part of the original string of letters. Just a heads up.


Not their real names, I just felt the initials were getting out of control.



Just a question. Isn't your race, like, human?

Ethnicity, then.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 09:20 AM
Just a question. Isn't your race, like, human?

Perhaps he meant ethnicity? That's how I took it.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Douglas
2010-10-14, 09:20 AM
Sounds like a reasonable compromise with hope for the future. I'd guess this will probably end with D either kicked out of the group for bad behavior or leaving on his own due to being pissed off about being outdone in optimization and rules mastery. There's a chance he'll truly reform his out of character behavior and learn the system and spotlight-sharing better, but him having to consciously watch himself and his clear jealousy about character power are not good signs.

Regardless, it's good that L is willing to recognize and acknowledge his friend's faults and that the group has a consensus on the issue.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-14, 09:30 AM
Not their real names, I just felt the initials were getting out of control.



Ethnicity, then.

I'm fine with people making fun of my ethnicity, heck I do it all the time.

Morph Bark
2010-10-14, 09:33 AM
Um.

It was a joke?

And I intended to simply wait for this rather than keep on posting stuff:


Well…that was unexpected.

Considering how things went, I find how L replied to you was very recommendable and well done of him. The tension regarding D will probably last for a while, but at least he is trying, which is a step in the right direction, even if he slipped up a few more times further into the session. All in all, things seemed to have been handled well enough by you and your group.

Out of curiosity, since it came up with D and all, what's your race? You don't have to answer of course.


Isn't your race, like, human?

His species is. :smallamused:

...presumably.

arguskos
2010-10-14, 09:36 AM
Ethnicity, then.
Haha you stupid non-humans. :smalltongue:

Also, allow me to contribute a resounding eeeeeeeeeh. I really somehow doubt that the asshattery is going to remain out of sight for more than the gaming equivalent of 5 minutes. Bring a truncheon to each session, in case he starts some ****. :smallannoyed:

Sipex
2010-10-14, 09:39 AM
Wow, I'm glad to hear things went a lot better than expected. I was expecting that today's post would either summarise to one or more of the following:
- You left
- D left
- The group split
- There was a big arguement

D sounds like he's trying which is important, even if he hasn't truly changed (which is hard) he acknowledges what you guys dislike and is trying to at least stop himself so he doesn't offend you.

Also, Bark. I was just having a little fun. No need for snide comments.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-14, 09:48 AM
I am of South Asian decent.

And I am an orc. Rawr.

And yeah. I admit, I'm as skeptical as Y and K, but...L was respectful enough, so I'll give him the same respect back. The issue isn't settled, but the solution is.

RE: Ethnicity Jokes – There’s a difference between joking around and what he was about to say.

Quietus
2010-10-14, 09:50 AM
And I am a MONSTER! Rawr!

Fixed that for you. Gnomes ftw!

Morph Bark
2010-10-14, 09:52 AM
No need for snide comments.

Whatever "snide" is, I'm guessing it is one of those words that describes an attitude I did not - or at least did not mean to - take.


I am of South Asian decent.

And I am an orc. Rawr.

And yeah. I admit, I'm as skeptical as Y and K, but...L was respectful enough, so I'll give him the same respect back. The issue isn't settled, but the solution is.

RE: Ethnicity Jokes – There’s a difference between joking around and what he was about to say.

Thinking in solutions rather than problems is always a leap forward.

And I thought South Asians were elvish?! I LEARNED SOMETHING NEW TODAY.

Seriously though, good thing he learned to swallow it in time.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-14, 09:57 AM
Fixed that for you. Gnomes ftw!

I have a lair. Do you have a lair? I have a lair.

Psyx
2010-10-14, 10:24 AM
Wait. Dice burn?

You've never microwaved offending ones?



I would have talked to the others. Had L talked to them all before sending you the text, or did he make the call on his own? It's not even ran at his house, so I fail to see why he gets to make the call. See what the others know about it.

I would not be happy having someone in my house who I did not like. I would like it even less if they insulted my misses. And when I saw 'not like' I mean 'would not allow them to step in the door'. Nobody invites anyone to my premises except me. 'L' doesn't seem to understand hospitality. If I were the host, I'd turn him away at the door.

Also: Nobody gets to hijack a DM's game unless he sucks. You don't get a day's notice to wind up a game. That's absurd. I would point out to L that you are not just dropping your game mid-way through, and that you have things planned. You at least need time to wind things up.

Iceforge
2010-10-14, 10:26 AM
Great to hear it went well and totally upped my perception of L in your playgroup from jerk to poor guy left in a very tough situation who is trying his best to please people in both directions and avoiding hurting a long time friends feelings.

Sort of a good thing my way of handling it was not what was done then, but then I guess there was details I was either not getting from your posts or that I missed that would have hinted to how his general atittude/behaviour was (refering to L here)

Best of luck with it, for everybodies sake, specially L who is the one going to suffer elseway, I hope D will actually reform and it will become less of a strain for him to not make his offensive comments

Psyx
2010-10-14, 10:34 AM
It sounds that you gave him enough rope, and he part-way hung himself.

Best behaviour or not, it still sounds like the game was 'less good' with him there. So it's a compromise. And a poor one. You've been reasonable. D seems to have tried to... and L is still a scum-bucket who has learned to put a thin veneer of politeness over it.

But not a thick enough one to make me want him in my presence.

If someone had 'just held back' from making a racist joke, I'd have been over the table and 'just held back' from making them eat ALL of their dice. Having a misogynistic racist at the table who barely restrains himself from making inappropriate remarks in front of the very people he clearly looks down upon is not something that I'd be happy putting up with.

I'm white. And male. I can't even begin to imagine how much more I'd hate this guy if I wasn't.

Si-on
2010-10-14, 10:49 AM
Glad things are ok. (For now).
L seems to be prepared to do the right thing if/when it comes down to it.

Psyx
2010-10-14, 11:18 AM
Glad things are ok. (For now).
L seems to be prepared to do the right thing if/when it comes down to it.

Like only thinking and implying racist and sexist things, without actually saying them out loud?

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 11:19 AM
Like only thinking and implying racist and sexist things, without actually saying them out loud?

Hey, it's better than actually saying them out loud. At least nobody else has to hear it that way.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 11:37 AM
Like only thinking and implying racist and sexist things, without actually saying them out loud?That was D. Si-on was talking about L, and the "right thing" L was prepared to do was kicking D out of the group.

Si-on
2010-10-14, 11:41 AM
I meant the situation in general not specific rubish that some idiots allow to flow from their mouths.
I do not condone racism in any form.
EDIT: or sexism.

Maryring
2010-10-14, 12:07 PM
S probably a bit late for this, but have a meat-flavour cookie for handling it in a superb manner?

I even piped it in the frosting. See? See? "Reward for handling a difficult situation in a superb manner."

(Or, in a more serious language, sounds like you handled the situation better than any advice that could be given. Very well done.)

prufock
2010-10-14, 12:30 PM
Doesn't sound better to me, if he has to 'catch himself' before saying something ignorant.

I disagree. There's a big difference between "almost shot somebody" and "shot somebody." That said, perhaps he hasn't improved enough. In any case, I'm not convinced; it still sounds like things were less enjoyable with him around.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-14, 12:31 PM
In any case, I'm not convinced; it still sounds like things were less enjoyable with him around.

WHich is true. He was better, but there was still tension. I'll give L the chance he wants, but if things do end up just becoming awkward or D lapses badly, well, that's that.

Quietus
2010-10-14, 12:36 PM
WHich is true. He was better, but there was still tension. I'll give L the chance he wants, but if things do end up just becoming awkward or D lapses badly, well, that's that.

Which is a very mature way of approaching this, and you deserve to be commended for it. And L, for apologizing for his poor handling of the situation in the first place, and willingness to be the one to step up if this one last chance doesn't work out. I sincerely hope this works out well for your group in the end, though.

Hyudra
2010-10-14, 02:38 PM
I really sympathize with L here. IRL, I have a friend (since birth - we were side by side in the maternity ward after we were born) who is also a gamer, and who has an incredibly intense competitive streak.

I love the guy like a brother, and really enjoy hanging out with him, but he's a really infuriating person to game with. Competitive streak a mile wide, parents who expected a lot of him. At one point I started playing Go, and played for a month before introducing it to my friend. Even with that, my friend wiped the floor with me a week later, having studied up, down and backwards as far as how to win the game. I think I won maybe three games against him in the half year that followed.

My short lived foray into World of Warcraft? I never could seem to keep up with him in levels. I'm level 10, he's level 10. I'm level 15, he's level 21. I'm level 20, he's level 30. I'm level 35, he's talking about what he's going to be doing endgame, and he's suggesting maybe he can play with me for a bit because he's got an alt almost caught up to me. It was only a year later (I'd quit after 3 months, never went back), when I gave him my account to use as he saw fit, that he admitted he'd had his brother (who was working a night shift part time) playing his characters from 2am to dawn while he played during the day.

While my friend wasn't racist or misogynist, he was argumentative, like D. Couldn't concede anyone else might be right, so the best you could hope for was to agree to disagree. Not a problem with me, but on the rare occasion (he lived halfway across the city from me) he met one of my other friends or extended family members, he didn't come off in the best light.

So I feel for L. I can see how he could be so happy if his friend could just play a game with him (and his other friends) without issue, frustration, arguments. He cares for his friend (like I care for mine), but his friend makes that very, very hard. I remember a few instances where my friend bought/joined a game I was playing and I felt more trepidation than excitement.

Long story short, I think L is probably the unhappiest person here, when it comes to the current situation. For everyone else, it looks as though there's one simple answer (get rid of D), but for L, that isn't really an answer, and there's this constant, feeble hope that things will work out & he'll be able to actually hang with his childhood friend.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-19, 09:47 AM
A minor update, for those who care:

D has begun what I can only assume is that start of a campaign to make me like him.

No, seriously. I dunno where he got the idea...if L asked him to do it or if he just honestly decided he'd do his best...

But in the past three days, he's asked me to join him in playing an online game ("I'd like my friends to play and you're one of the best gamers in our group"), sent me an online gift certificate to Borders ("I got this from work, figured you might want it since you bought some books for the group during my absence!"), and...I am not screwing with you, this is the scary part...asked me for help on optimizing his latest character "because you clearly know 4e better than me right now and I want to have a strong character instead of being dead weight for the party".

What...what just happened?

Am I in Opposite Evil Bizzaro World? Quick, guys, how many of you have mustaches?

Honestly, it may just be manipulative emotional bribery (I know, I know, be nice, AA, be nice...) but its came kinda outta nowhere. I'm taking all of it with a grain of salt and a sack of amusement.

Douglas
2010-10-19, 10:13 AM
:smallconfused:

Wow. He might actually work out if this keeps up. Now to see what he does with his in game behavior...

Kylarra
2010-10-19, 11:24 AM
Well here's hoping he's at least trying to fit in and not just trying to emotionally blackmail you.

Morph Bark
2010-10-19, 11:43 AM
Am I in Opposite Evil Bizzaro World? Quick, guys, how many of you have mustaches?

Plus goatee? Then... well not yet. And I plan on shaving anyway.

Curious how long this will keep up. If it is for more than two sessions and the in-between time, I'd say it is pretty genuine, or at least such an elaborate attempt to fit together with the group (or at least you - how many others of the group have experienced this?) that he's changed significantly at least.

Psyx
2010-10-19, 11:46 AM
If you're lucky, he might invite you over to join him cat-calling passing women on a street corner!

Mystic Muse
2010-10-19, 11:59 AM
Am I in Opposite Evil Bizzaro World? Quick, guys, how many of you have mustaches?


I do, but largely because I'm too lazy to shave.

Hopefully you aren't in opposite evil bizzaro world and D is actually trying to be a nice person.

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-19, 03:32 PM
If you're lucky, he might invite you over to join him cat-calling passing women on a street corner!

IT'S ALL I EVER DREAMED OF AND MORE.

Sipex
2010-10-19, 03:48 PM
You are obviously in one of the following situations:

1) An alternate dimension where you've taken the place of your evil bizzaro twin. D's intentionally good bizarro twin is scared of you.

2) You're in a horror movie where D is the antagonist but you'll never proove it. Have fun.

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 03:58 PM
I wouldn't punch someone for what you have described, I'd set fire to their dice.

Can we make a standing rule not to talk about burning dice?

Mystic Muse
2010-10-19, 03:59 PM
Can we make a standing rule not to talk about burning dice?

You'd have to talk to the mods on that one. Unless I'm misinterpreting something.

As a side note Hooray for people wanting to attempt to be decent human beings!

Ormagoden
2010-10-19, 04:02 PM
A minor update, for those who care:

D has begun what I can only assume is that start of a campaign to make me like him.

No, seriously. I dunno where he got the idea...if L asked him to do it or if he just honestly decided he'd do his best...

But in the past three days, he's asked me to join him in playing an online game ("I'd like my friends to play and you're one of the best gamers in our group"), sent me an online gift certificate to Borders ("I got this from work, figured you might want it since you bought some books for the group during my absence!"), and...I am not screwing with you, this is the scary part...asked me for help on optimizing his latest character "because you clearly know 4e better than me right now and I want to have a strong character instead of being dead weight for the party".

What...what just happened?

Am I in Opposite Evil Bizzaro World? Quick, guys, how many of you have mustaches?

Honestly, it may just be manipulative emotional bribery (I know, I know, be nice, AA, be nice...) but its came kinda outta nowhere. I'm taking all of it with a grain of salt and a sack of amusement.

Take it for what it's worth! Give him a second chance. The world runs on second chances. If it doesn't work out the second time you'll have no doubt in your mind or need any affirmation when you leave the group or sever ties with D. You'll know you've given him a chance and won't feel one molecule of sadness about your decision.

On the other hand... If he's improved to a point where you find him acceptable to hang around, congratulations +1 friends.

jiriku
2010-10-19, 04:29 PM
You handled yourself with class in a difficult situation. Kudos.

And yes...I have a goatee. Doesn't everyone?

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 05:53 PM
And yes...I have a goatee. Doesn't everyone?

Unfortunately not. I am military, and thus required not to look like a bad guy. :smallfrown:

Evil the Cat
2010-10-19, 06:36 PM
Unfortunately not. I am military, and thus required not to look like a bad guy. :smallfrown:

Because nothing says "Good Guy" like fatigues, guns, and a shaved head?

dsmiles
2010-10-19, 06:44 PM
Because nothing says "Good Guy" like fatigues, guns, and a shaved head?

...and no goatee. :smallfrown:

Il_Vec
2010-10-19, 07:22 PM
Yep, moustache, goatee and sideburns check.

And... Maybe he realized he would get excluded if he didn't get along with you. =)

Quietus
2010-10-19, 09:29 PM
Does a full beard count? I've got the 'stache.. but I look stupid with just a goatee.

Amphetryon
2010-10-19, 09:31 PM
Goatee for now. I have enough facial scars that a full beard makes me look like I got slapped about the face with a hedgehog, so goatee is as much as I'll grow.

big teej
2010-10-19, 09:51 PM
Am I in Opposite Evil Bizzaro World? Quick, guys, how many of you have mustaches?

Honestly, it may just be manipulative emotional bribery (I know, I know, be nice, AA, be nice...) but its came kinda outta nowhere. I'm taking all of it with a grain of salt and a sack of amusement.

my goatee is about a week away from obtaining 'patch of sinister' status...

check under your bed for a portal to a dimension where long running subplots are all brought to a conclusion.

:roy:

darkpuppy
2010-10-20, 04:13 AM
I'm a DM, so a sinister goatee is de-rigeur. I like to twirl my 'stache sometimes, and stroke the goatee part when making people reconsider things...

...but seriously, you did good, AA, and you're aware of what's going on. I'm also gonna be keepin' mah eye on this thread, so keep us posted, and, well... you know you've got your own support network in us!

panaikhan
2010-10-20, 07:24 AM
Can we make a standing rule not to talk about burning dice?

I apologise if I upset or offended anyone by saying it, but I don't apologise for saying it in the first place. Reading the thread to that point seriously ticked me off.

That said, I am happy that things seem to be 'improving', and hope they continue to improve.

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-04, 03:26 PM
That said, I am happy that things seem to be 'improving', and hope they continue to improve.

Oh we knew it was too good to be true. We really, really knew it was too good to be true.

Third session since D’s return was last night. I’ll get to that.

In the 2nd session of D’s return, we played Y’s game, a 3.5 game that was mentioned before because it was actually part of the reason D began targeting me for insults…my character in that game is an Exalted Barb/ChampOfGwynharrawyf in a party of…not entirely moral people. Bad DM call, but I’m working with it, really playing up the “Whirling Fury” of the fluff and establishing myself as both exalted and ruthless…not the easiest thing in the world, but a fun RP challenge.

D, playing a dual-wielding Wiz4/Fighter4, takes every opportunity he can to call my character ‘dumb’, ‘poorly made’, ‘broken’, ‘non-sensical’, and so-on. Then proceeds to brag repeatedly about how awesome his character is and how he could take on everyone in the party. Well, now he’s managed to set off everyone’s annoyance. To the point where the Chaotic Neutral sorcerer aiming to lichhood decides to befriend my character out of hatred for D’s character (also chaotic neutral…D is the type of character to play an evil character while claiming mechanically neutral alignment). Everyone is pretty much on edge. And then the passive aggression starts…D starts questioning rules that were changed in his absence (from houserules back to book rules, thanks to my objections and votes by the rest of the group…I actually felt bad about this, but everyone actually likes the removal of the rules. Which I found out D was responsible for yesterday). He calls the new rulings ‘idiotic’ and ‘unfun’. We put up with it, but I can see even the neutrals gnashing their teeth and…most worryingly of all…I can see L getting angry.

Not with us.

With D.

It only got worse after an encounter with two dire bears. Playing the raging barbarian, I beat the living crap out of one of them while our fighter (L) tanked the other. Our sorc slung spells to high efficiency, starting with haste and following up with badassedness. Favored soul threw some heals. D’s player? Cast Flaming sphere. Missed with it every time, since the bears had a pretty high chance of saving. The entire battle was over in three turns and all three of them involved D being useless. He then yelled at me for putting “everyone at risk” by charging the bears. Which were charging us. Considering I managed to tie the bear down far away from everyone else, who was much more vulnerable than me, I was okay with what I had done, but he didn’t let up till the sorc called him a “coward and a fool” in game, which kept him quiet. D, as usual, left early. The game proceeded afterwards with a great deal more levity and relaxation. L looked upset as he left, but I didn’t want to pry anything out of him.

This week? D didn’t contact any of us to let us know whether he’s coming or not, but in general, that means he’ll be showing up. L picks me up, since he’s my ride. And we have a very interesting conversation.

L: “I don’t know what to do about D.”
AA: “You kinda do.”
L: “I know. I know. It just…it sucks. It really sucks. I want to include him, but he doesn’t make it easy and you know what? It’s not fun for me anymore either. I don’t want him back in my games and that hurts.”
AA: “He hasn’t been that bad since he came back…”
L: “Yeah, but he’s getting back there and its not going to get better. I think you’ve been pretty much right all along. I’m going to talk to people individually over the next week or so and see what we want to do about him. He’s our friend. We need to be careful or its going to ruin a lot of connections that’s worth a bunch to us.”
AA: “You can blame it all on me.”
L: “Thanks, AA. You’re so helpful. Eh, he’ll probably blame you anyways.”

D, amusingly, showed up late. Very late. While we were setting up, K was finishing up a game of League of Legends on her computer. D wasn’t answering anyone’s phone calls or texts. Jokingly, K went to check if he was playing a game of League. Incredulous shout from her room:

K: “Are you ******* kidding me? He’s in game. As Tristana. He’s been in game for 2 minutes, which means he just started. While we’re waiting for him to show up. That little sonuva…”

Bad feelings all around. We start playing without him…specifically, playing L’s game. We have a lot of fun. Lot of RPing, teamwork, cool stuff happens all around. We integrate a new player character into the group…an god-hating warblade who becomes fast friends with my paladin/crusader, purely out of mutual respect. Everything goes swimmingly, especially without D’s character, a murderous “chaotic neutral” rogue. Then D shows up, 3 hours late. With the excuse being “I needed some me time.” He asks what we’re playing, we say L’s game. He walks over to where he keeps his sheets and L holds out his hand, stopping D.

“D. Your character isn’t here for this. You're not really a part of what's going on here.”

OH. DAMN.

L proceeded to run the session for the rest of us, not including D and D’s character in any way, shape, or form. He didn’t give him loot that was rolled. He didn’t give him experience…both technically fair, since D hadn’t been their for most of the last few encounters, but surprising for all of us. When D asked where his character was, L said “I’ll tell you later.” D eventually left an hour later, not having been allowed to play at all. By L, the only person actively pushing for us to let D play. No one says a damn thing about this. Y gives me a ride home and its a full 10 minutes of driving on a fifteen minute drive before he bursts out with "HOLY CRAP WHAT HAPPENED TONIGHT?!"

Yeah, so I dunno what happens next. But…next week is gonna be a doozy, ladies and gents.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-04, 03:44 PM
Well, at least he tried. I didn't expect anythingt o change but I hoped it would. I'm glad it's coming to a solid conclusion anyway where even L doesn't want him to play.

Sipex
2010-11-04, 03:45 PM
Hooooly crap.

Good to know L has some sense left in him.

Merellis
2010-11-04, 03:52 PM
I'm not sure whether next week will end badly, or end hilariously. Or both. :smallconfused:

Either way, makes good story.

Though, the fact that D was 3 hours late, after being shown going on the game right after beginning was just tempting fate.

Kylarra
2010-11-04, 03:52 PM
Well that sucks. I'm glad you've pretty much come to a group consensus about him being a problem though.

big teej
2010-11-04, 04:24 PM
I am intrigued....

ramblerambleramble
I've never quite had player conflict like this, the closest either of my groups have ever come to this is 1) me being irritable with a particular player(s) in my old group and 2) a player who showed up twice in my new group (and slept through the 2nd time she showed up) I hope I never have to deal with a conflict like this, however, I imagine I will :smallfrown: but for now I must admit I am very curious about the (seeming) leap in L's behavior from 'playing both sides' to not only putting his foot down, but putting his foot down while driving an assault class battlemech.

the fact that other players were even starlted by this is rather.... 'intriguing' as well...

I am curious
the fat man requires more information!
tl; dr, I am quite curious as to how this situation will play out, specifically between L and D

Kaun
2010-11-04, 05:35 PM
K: “Are you ******* kidding me? He’s in game. As Tristana. He’s been in game for 2 minutes, which means he just started. While we’re waiting for him to show up. That little sonuva…”

And he plays auto attack heroes!

Does this man depravity know no bounds!

dsmiles
2010-11-04, 05:49 PM
Well, it sucks, but at least it looks like sanity will prevail.

Maryring
2010-11-04, 05:57 PM
That doesn't sound very...

Good luck okay? That's all I can say.

BridgeCity
2010-11-05, 02:57 AM
Been reading for a while, decided to say something. While I think it is great that L has started coming around to your point of view, I think it would be unfair to make him be the person who has to tell D once and for all not to come. L didn't have a problem with him to begin with, and has been stated he is best friend with D. I'd feel really bad for making a friend tell his best friend he wasn't welcome because I didn't get along with him, I'd feel that I should do it myself and spare their relationship with each other as much as possible.

So well done, glad to see you handled this in an incredibly mature way and that things seem to be working out for you, but yeah, I think it would be unfair to make L the person who has to nail the final nail in the coffin, he has more to lose than any of you.

Morph Bark
2010-11-05, 05:36 AM
Will D make his return yet again?
Will L surprise everyone with his mature, calculated ways of handling things?
Will AA's patience and tolerance break apart and turn him into a rampant, "chaotic neutral" killer?
Will Y finally grasp what has been going on right in front of him?
And will K admit that she is addicted to League of Legends more than DnD?

Find out next time, on Desperate Roleplayers!

Silus
2010-11-05, 07:14 AM
Y gives me a ride home and its a full 10 minutes of driving on a fifteen minute drive before he bursts out with "HOLY CRAP WHAT HAPPENED TONIGHT?!"

Ok, I confess, I loled.

Well hopefully things work out.

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 11:48 AM
“D. Your character isn’t here for this. You're not really a part of what's going on here.”


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/119/294168009_b25decaddf.jpg

jiriku
2010-11-05, 11:58 AM
I'd say your good judgment is showing itself here. Had you acted rashly or created a dramatic scene, there's a risk that you could have offended your friends or spooked the new players. By giving D enough rope to hang himself, you're making it clear that you're a reasonable person, and that D is the source of his own troubles. If he's given the boot (which seems increasingly likely), everyone will know that it's his own behavior that's the reason.

Oh, and this is a great read. Gaming drama is gripping when it's someone else's group. :smalltongue:

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-05, 03:08 PM
I think a large part of the reason for the “Oh Snap” moment that occurred between L and D was because of D’s obvious disrespect for the group that night.

Now, don’t get me wrong. D&D isn’t the absolute most important thing in this group’s life. Everyone has plenty to do and quite a solid social life outside of the game, which is why we only meet once a week on Wednesdays. But we always set aside time for our games. And this night was an important night…we haven’t run L’s game in months. He’d been prepping for this session for a long time and was really eager to run it. We all knew he’d be running his game that night. He’d spent HOURS…I mean HOURS…making sure everyone would be included.

And then D doesn’t show up for most of the night, chilling out at home and playing video games the whole damn time? Remaining completely incommunicado with everyone, including his best friend L? Showing up at 11pm yelling “Wazzup *******!” like his presence is some kind of saving grace for the night?

Yeah. L was upset and understandably so. D crossed a line. He disrespected his only remaining friend in the group at a time said friend was already expressing frustration with his behavior. Sometimes, you don’t even have to hand ‘em the rope, y’know?

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 05:30 PM
I think a large part of the reason for the “Oh Snap” moment that occurred between L and D was because of D’s obvious disrespect for the group that night.

Now, don’t get me wrong. D&D isn’t the absolute most important thing in this group’s life.

Yeah. D was disrespectful of every member of the group and their time, for no reason whatsoever. If he wanted to play LoL, he could have called someone and said he wasn't going to make it or whatever. He showed absolutely no respect for the fact that people would be waiting for him.

I don't blame anyone for not taking that kind of blatant disrespect.

Cerlis
2010-11-05, 06:20 PM
I am bit regretful I didnt see this post before now, as you have already gone to the session from the looks of it, and any advice I write is thus pretty useless.

Seems like a pretty bad situation that you are in, and by you, I mean everybody in the group except D and L.

I personally only had to deal with a bad player issue once, and he was not yet a friend, by my standards, but not someone I felt ill towards, but he does towards me now, after he was no longer invited to continue playing in our game.

The problem of D is pretty obvious from your posts, but the even bigger problem in my eyes is L.

L seems to, judging from your posts anyway, be of the impression that the group is, despite where the play session happens or who is DM, his group, and that he is ultimately in 100% charge of the group.

I am a bit confrontational in nature, specially if I was in your position.

While some would say that it could lead to hurt feelings and everything else. I would simply start up the session by calmly asking out loud, while directing it to L by looking at him.
"Am I worth less in this group due to not having been in it for as many years as the rest of you?"

Yes, I am tricky like that, cause now you turn the tables on L.

Instead of the confrontation being about you attacking L, L will either have to say either "Yes" or "No" to the question.

If he says "Yes", then he is the one attacking you, explain that you do not think that is fair, as you put a lot of effort and work into you all having fun, and you lead the games usually, and ask how come you are worth less taking that into consideration.

Most likely, he will say "no", and be a acting a bit like that is a strange thing to ask, then simply ask "If i am not worth less than you, then how come that while I am DM'ing a game, run at K and Y's house, that you decide that D is going to take over, like you are worth more than me?"

Then he will have to give some reasons for why he did what he did, and will try to do that without having to imply that he is in charge of the group, or if he implies or directly says that he is in charge, then ask if he is worth more than the other individuals in the group?

Yes, it would be very underhanded, yes, manipulatively designed to try and make him the bad guy who has to go against either you or the entire group infront of you and the rest of the group.

Above all, remain calm, maybe the anger of D and L will flare as you start roasting the subject, but remain calm and if they start telling you not to ask those questions, simply ask "why not? You are just curious as to how come they think they have the right to do what they did"

Yes, this does hold all the rest of the group hostage to the entire situation, and yes, it will do the undesired "turn friends against friends", but L has already done this.

Don't for a second think or blame yourself for it, if you do something like this, thinking you are sturring things up between friends, no, L sturred things up and turned friends against friends, when he decided that he had the right to dictate what the rest of you should be doing and put himself in charge, like some dictator.

Some here have suggested you take the highroad and try and get the group to get along, but honestly, unless L changes very quickly, he should not be in your group.

D is a none-issue, he should not have been invited in the first place, in my eyes, the real big issue is L, who is being a real jerk, and who must think he is in charge/worth more than you, since he thinks he can do what he did.

I would not accept it, but do not put it up as an ultimatum if you can avoid it, because if you put up the ultimatum up flat, then it will seem, to the rest, as if you are putting friends against friends, and then usually the one putting up the ultimatum is the one to suffer the consequences.

You can, however, put up an ultimatum the moment L or D indicates you are worth less than they are to the group or claim in any way that they have the right to do what they did, as then they have already insulted all the rest around the table

I love your beautiful beautiful mind.

P.S. Marry me?

PPS. Also part of it might be that since D is L's best friend, and he's been trying so hard to get D to become compatible, and D just blatantly goes beyond just making the game unfun but risking the entire thing, that it was a "This is my problem, its my job to fix it"
Course he coulda just been pissed. His campaign and all. Everything you said

Emotions are complex and vast

Kaun
2010-11-14, 02:49 AM
Hey can we get an update on this one?

Its like RPG Gossip girl

xoxo

Psyx
2010-11-15, 06:50 AM
I'm assuming we'll get an update after Wednesday...


*drums fingers*

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 10:35 AM
I'm reminded of a passage from Weird Al's "Jerry Springer":

"It's like a train wreck
Don't wanna stare but you can't look away"

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-15, 01:08 PM
Sorry I haven’t updated this. Mostly I didn’t know how to phrase what happened this past week. Guess I’ll give it a shot.

I was picked up by Y from the train station. We talk a little bit, joke around, and then in a rather pregnant silence, he looks at me and says “Please go easy on D today. His grandmother died this morning.” I shrugged and nodded and then said something that surprised Y.

“Yeah, I know.”

See, the night before, I’d been getting in a League of Legends game before bed when I get a message from D…he’s on and he wants to play. I don’t really want to at this point, not with him, because I just want to try and get a win and go to bed, but then he starts pouring his heart out to me. His grandmother is passing away and there’s nothing anyone can do…she’s sick and there’s no real hope. She’d raised him, essentially, because his mother had been too busy with her own life to deal with a child and her father had left the family after D was born. His grandmother had been the one figure in his life he looked up to…and she was gone, going to pass in a matter of hours. He wanted to play because he needed something to take his mind off it, to pull him out of the hell that his reality was becoming, and I…I, the guy who he knows dislikes him and would like to see his ass kicked to the curb…was the closest thing he had to a friend to talk to right now.

So what the hell do I do now? Well, what d’you think I did? I sucked up my irritation and pride and said “Okay, let’s go kick some butt.” We won two incredibly decisive games and then I had to sleep due to exhaustion. I told D I had to go, but he knew I’d help him out if he needed something. He thanked me and I logged off for the night, assuming we wouldn’t see D tomorrow as he’d be busy dealing with things.

He was there. Turns out, he had nowhere else to go. His mother’s family was taking care of the arrangement and he’d alienated so many of them with his attitude and behavior that they didn’t want him to be a part of it…he could go to the funeral in a few days, and that’s all they were going to let him do. He had no family to turn to and no other friends than the ones gathered around the table that night.

So we had fun. We drank. He got annoying at times, but we rode with it and he tried to tamp it down. He didn’t get frustrated when his character proved useless yet again and instead cracked jokes about how he shot himself in the foot. He didn’t do everything right, but he was hurting and being with a group of people he called his friends was what he needed.

He left early that night, as usual, but as he did, asked me to come out and help him to his ride…he’d called a cab since he was rather drunk and I was closest to the door, so no big deal. As I helped him out, he gave me a tight grip on the shoulder and looked me in the eye.

(Paraphrased…he was drunk, but very, very eloquent. This is the best as I can remember what he said)

“AA…you’re a good man. I ain’t just bein’ drunk. You are. I gave you so much crap…gave you so much hell…for stupid things. Stupid little things because everyone liked you so quickly and everyone wanted you in the group and nobody ever did that for me. You showed up and you were so good, so nice, so damn perfect for the group that I felt like I had just forced my way in there cause I was L’s friend, and I guess I did. So I gave you hell whenever I could to see if I could get you angry or see your façade of nice-guy maturity crack or whatever and you, you bastard, you never cracked because I guess it ain’t a façade, I guess you’re really nice or whatever and that pisses me off even more because how can you do it? I thought you had an easy life and then I found out your daddy died when you were just a kid and your mom was never home and then you told us that story about how you got beat up a few times after 9/11 cause of what you look like and…and…man. You never cracked. I couldn’t bully you. You didn’t put up with my crap, but you didn’t react either…you just said your piece and let me ride, let me hang myself and look like the ass because I WAS the ass.”

At this point we got to the cab and he slumped against it while I gave the driver D’s address and gave him a little extra tip in case something went wrong with D on the way there. D grabbed me again.

“When you said I could call you if I needed something, you meant it. You really, really meant it. To me, the guy who you have no reason to help and the guy whose made stuff crappy for you whenever he shows up. You’re a good guy…maybe the best guy who shows up at that table. I’m sorry, AA. I’m gonna be better. I don’t wanna be the guy who does what I do anymore.”

So yeah. I gave him a squeeze on the shoulder and told him to call L when he made it home, told him thank you and that I didn’t deserve the praise, and then we sent him home. I went back inside and they asked me what took so long. I shrugged and said “You know how it is, he was drunk and really heavy and the cabby was kind of worried.”

I don’t really…know what happens next, now. Part of me wants to say “Okay, but if you still can’t change go to hell,” but there’s a larger part of me…the part that makes me DM, the part that makes me play meatshields in every RPG or video game that has them, the part that always makes me play a holy warrior specifically if they’re available…that says its my job to help him change. Sure, it isn’t, but it should be. It’s someone’s job, after all…guys like him don’t change on their own.

I’ll be putting forth a motion this Wednesday, to run a 3.5. or 4e game that will include D as a player.

He’s gotten a lot of chances already, sure. And he probably doesn’t deserve another one. But I did inherit a lot of my genetics from my father, and my father was a professional gambler. He specialized in horse races. He always won his bets, barring unforeseen circumstances, but he also always hedged a small sum on whatever horse had the absolute worst odds in the race. I asked him why when I was 9 and he said “Sure, it’s a million to one chance. Maybe more. And sure, it’ll never happen. But it costs me nothing, today could be a day of miracles, and honestly…I like to think horses are happier when they know someone thinks they could win.”

I’ve been saying a lot that I’m old enough not to have to deal with people like D…that I’m mature enough to know that sometimes you just have to walk away from a bad situation. But there’s a flip side to that, too. If I’m supposed to be the good guy that I want to be, I have to step up and be that guy, just like D has to step up and be the guy he wants to become.

I’m not giving him a carte blanche. The game will be fairly restrictive for everyone and will feature a lot of teamwork, to force him to play nice or get rocked. I don’t intend to be an easy DM, ever, and I’ll stay the same way here. And if he can’t play nice, I’ll tell L that I’ll handle it this time and have my own set of words with D.

Because in the end, the only person who’s really going to give him a last chance and judge him on it is me. And that makes it my job to do it.

Psyx
2010-11-15, 01:14 PM
Now the FIA Formula 1 season is over, this is the only soap opera worth following...

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 01:16 PM
Crowning Moment of Heartwarming? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments?from=Main.CROWNINGMOMENTOFHEAR TWARMING)

Psyx
2010-11-15, 01:18 PM
my father was a professional gambler.

Then I guess he taught you the most important rule: Never bet on ANYTHING that you don't already know will win!

Sleepingbear
2010-11-15, 01:19 PM
If the guy wants to change, it's possible. But he has to want to change and keep wanting it. Just don't let this become an excuse to be a doormat. Doesn't seem like an issue though.

Good luck.

dsmiles
2010-11-15, 01:21 PM
Sorry I haven’t updated this. Mostly I didn’t know how to phrase what happened this past week. Guess I’ll give it a shot.
~snip~


You really are a good guy. I'm not sure I could give him the benefit of the doubt like that.

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-15, 01:32 PM
Then I guess he taught you the most important rule: Never bet on ANYTHING that you don't already know will win!

Actually, according to him, it was "If you're not going to win, make sure you still walk away with the other guy's money."

Also, "You're only a thief if you get caught."

My dad was kinda awesome.

Morph Bark
2010-11-15, 01:32 PM
Condolences to D for his grandmother. Hopeful future congratulations to you for an additional best friend.

...you also very much remind me now of my best friend, who also only plays the holy warrior types, acts as nice and mature as he can be and has had bully problems in the past, partly for his appearance.

Grogmir
2010-11-15, 03:14 PM
AA - just read the whole thing - and my whole thoughts and post change with that last post. That in modern terms was epic. But that sulies it. I'm not ashamed to admit I had tears in my eyes.

Pre post - You had done everything right - always give people a chance - D would hang himself. Racist, Sexist? Pah - not worth the effort.
L - seemed like a good guy tbh - ok first txt was bad - but he knew it was wrong -

Post post - Wow - okay - D - drunk or not that was a decent 'speech' it seems like such a transformation that I worry you've put your own nice guy spin on it. But its clear there's a human being there - he opened up and said straight out he's been trying to fck with you, that can be changed easily, just stop. but there are other problems.

And thats where you've gotta decide to step on, be the nice guy as you say, take that million shot gamble.

Sounds like you've already done that - you're DMing 4Ed (IMO good choice ;)) and he's invited - this gives you a great chance.

I would ask him for 1 one 1 pre meeting - to 'clear the air' and 'plan' he's already asked you for help. How you handle that meeting could be cruical.
Take it easy have a beer, talk about his character first - to make it clear you want him in your game.
Then talk about how you're going to DM - the rules there will be - give him a chance to have his say - say in the sessions he'll have 30 secs to convince and then you'll expect to move on and him to hold it, until the end of the session - get anything else gamewise out the way then.

Finally - you've gotta confront the two elephants in the room, racist and sexist jokes. Rightly or wrongly he see's you as a good man, He asked you for help, do you wanna take that bullet?
I would say something like, 'we aren't friends yet - we could be - the guys at the table are your friends but you've pissed them off and their too good friends to tell you why. It aint game related - its a general thing and its the only out of game advice i'll ever give you - You wanna game with me and us to be friends? cut out the racist and sexist jokes. It ain't cool mate, it just at cool. Now lets roll!

Sorry for the long post - good luck AA and everyone - including D

Happy Rollin'

P.s (I also think you might need to explain to Y and K a little to explain why you now want keep D)

Kaun
2010-11-15, 05:21 PM
Wow that wasn't what i was expecting in this update.

I feel sorry for the guy but in saying that he reminds me of a few people i have known over the years.

Just be carefull with the chances you give him, i have known many people that curse their hard upbringing and blame it for the way they are. Then while they are deep in their cup swear that they are a changed person and that they are going to mend their ways, only to be back to square 1 a month later.

If you can't change him be carefull he doesn't change you.

kyoryu
2010-11-15, 05:35 PM
That's awesome, and kudos to you, no matter what happens.

It's entirely possible that everything together, and getting the one guy who had no reason to be nice to him, to be there for him when he needed it, might have been enough to put him over the edge and back into reasonable behavior. And if so, man, making a difference in someone's life like that is just way too cool.

But, a lot of people with behavior like that are master manipulators, and know how to make a show of penance at just the right time to haul them back from the brink.

So I think you're doing a good thing. Be hopeful, and give him the opportunity to prove himself... but be careful if he reverts to his old behavior. If he does, gently remind him of it, but don't let it continue on forever.

Quietus
2010-11-15, 05:45 PM
Well, I have to say - that last post had me misting up pretty hard. Specifically, D's speech there. If he can follow through with that, AA, you may have been the catalyst that could turn a total ass into a good friend.. you deserve all the cookies and cheesecake in the world for that, it's a special thing to be a part of. Kudos to you.

darkpuppy
2010-11-16, 12:22 AM
Yeah, keep it up, man. You got the chance to do some good there. Support and kudos from a guy who's had to make some rough choices like that himself.

Balain
2010-11-16, 12:45 AM
I was in a spot that was kind of the same. We had 2 guys that when we played with one or the other the gaming nights went good. But when both played there would be arguing all the time. Normally we would tell them to cool it and the night would continue. One night it got bad and guy one almost stated a fist fight, we had to almost hold them apart. The next day I told guy 1 and some of my clsoer friends, that I loved Roleplaying with the group but not when guy 1 and guy 2 played together. For the nights when both play together please to think I'm a snob or what ever but I'm not coming. The nights just aren't fun.

In the end I still played lots and on occasion the 2 of them played and I never went. To this day I still won't join them if the 2 are together. Which only happens once every 4 months or so now.

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-24, 12:04 PM
Some random and final updates:

Last week was D’s grandmother’s funeral, so he did not show (of course). I fielded my idea of putting together a new game for everyone and it was met with a great deal of excitement…especially when I put forth my trump card as an option:

Shadowrun.

It’s a new system for everyone and I’ve always wanted to run it (and considering my love of sci-fi and cyberpunk, a few in the group have been bugging me to run it for months), so I’ll be spending my holidays boning up and putting together some practice sessions with other folks to get things rolling for my main group. People are really, really excited about this. L was a little bit…shocked, to be frank…that I was willing to do this, but I told him flat out that friendship is friendship, and if ways can be mended, then I’m not going to bear a grudge here.

D and I have been getting on…really well, as of late. It helps that in our group, he and I are the two best ‘gamers’ when it comes to online games, which means we team up fairly often in League of Legend and do rather well together while many of our other friends are…less impressive. We’ve even begun cracking jokes about how I feel dirty protecting him from danger when I play with him…we’ve gotten to the point where we can jokingly tease and mock each other without going too far on either side. He’s toned his offensive jokes way, way down…he hasn’t made one since, actually.

The change is noticeable and others in the group have noticed it as well…and who’s responsible…to the point where people have commented that they’ve never seen him this outright pleasant. There’s some fear about whether it will last, but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt. I think he’s really gotten to the point where he understands the value of these guys who’ve been giving him chance after chance to make good.

As far as I’m concerned, this is the end of this thread and this story. To those of you who enjoyed reading about my personal life and conflicts, I appreciate the audience. Most of all, though, I appreciate the advice, the support, and the way you guys gave me a place to vent without playing sycophants to my irritation.

If anything, I’ll post a new thread after the holidays detailing the trial and travails of our Shadowrun campaign.

Thanks for the advice, thanks for reading, and I hope the dice roll in your favor.

Grogmir
2010-11-24, 01:26 PM
Thanks for the update AA, I'm glad thinks have settled down that this can be your final post on the issue.

You sound like a top bloke and a credit to your group. But don't take all the credit, remember its tough to change (even from being a twohat to decent gamer) and that D deserves credit too.

Happy Rollin' to you all.
Grogmir.

Si-on
2010-11-24, 01:46 PM
I hope things keep getting better for you and your group.
Be lucky.

Rhuadin
2010-11-24, 01:53 PM
Man, I just saw this thread and read the entire thing. I just have one thing to say.

You sir, are a cleric who has successfully researched the Atonement spell. Good job.

Kylarra
2010-11-24, 01:56 PM
Well I, for one, am satisfied with the way things turned out. Good job.

Fiery Diamond
2010-11-24, 02:18 PM
Man, I just saw this thread and read the entire thing. I just have one thing to say.

You sir, are a cleric who has successfully researched the Atonement spell. Good job.

I was going to say the same thing, except I was going to call him a real life paladin.

AA, I admire you.

Yahzi
2010-11-25, 06:55 AM
Coolest. Thread. Ever.

Kaun
2010-11-25, 04:03 PM
When you tell this story in the future a battle to the death on the top of a skyscraper during a thunder storm would make a much more dramatic ending.

:tongue:

I look forward too your shadowrun thread.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-11-25, 04:56 PM
*clapclapclap*

Bravo, AA, bravo. I hope your group continues to be nice to each other, and I eagerly await your Shadowrun thread, especially if you can write about IC conflict as well as you can about RL.

Safety Sword
2010-11-25, 05:50 PM
This thread is like "Days of our D&D"... :smallwink: