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randomhero00
2010-10-12, 04:43 PM
As in, someone takes like 100 damage over what would kill them. Is their body even still there? Their equipment? How do you rule such?

The Glyphstone
2010-10-12, 04:45 PM
My rule-of-thumb is 2x their full HP total in damage dealt to trigger a Chunky Salsa rule. So if someone was at 1 HP, it'd take a single hit equal to their max HP +1 to obliterate their body.

There is no RAW to govern the situation though.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-12, 04:59 PM
The body is still there no matter how much damage you do to it; it's just sometimes you're more certain that it's dead even before it falls.

There are plenty of rules in D&D, and I don't see any good reason for adding a house rule in this case. All you'll end up doing is forcing people to pay the difference between Resurrection (10,000 gp material cost) and True Resurrection (25,000 gp material cost), rendering the lower spell useless because everybody would be aware of this "destroyed body" situation. Remember, the enemies typically outnumber the PCs, and attacking a downed PC to destroy the body is something any group of mooks can accomplish.

LOTRfan
2010-10-12, 05:01 PM
If you want something like that, I'd go with Gyphstone's rules.

Not that this is really important or anything, but gaining a number of temporary hit points equaling your total hit points (or twice that, I don't quite remember) causes you to explode, too.

randomhero00
2010-10-12, 05:02 PM
The body is still there no matter how much damage you do to it; it's just sometimes you're more certain that it's dead even before it falls.

There are plenty of rules in D&D, and I don't see any good reason for adding a house rule in this case. All you'll end up doing is forcing people to pay the difference between Resurrection (10,000 gp material cost) and True Resurrection (25,000 gp material cost), rendering the lower spell useless because everybody would be aware of this "destroyed body" situation. Remember, the enemies typically outnumber the PCs, and attacking a downed PC to destroy the body is something any group of mooks can accomplish.

I kind of agree. But then on the other hand, how do you represent something that well, does that? Destroys a body. I guess there's distentegrate (sp?) but what if you didn't want to use that? I mean, for instance, what if a body was sitting in lava, wouldn't it go bye bye after a certain amount of damage?

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-12, 05:03 PM
As in, someone takes like 100 damage over what would kill them. Is their body even still there? Their equipment? How do you rule such?

I don't run hp as how much of your body is being gibbed away by each sword strike. It's something far more abstract than that, and 100 damage to a level 20 barbarian means something different entirely than 100 damage to a level 1 wizard.

randomhero00
2010-10-12, 05:11 PM
I don't run hp as how much of your body is being gibbed away by each sword strike. It's something far more abstract than that, and 100 damage to a level 20 barbarian means something different entirely than 100 damage to a level 1 wizard.

Not really, since both characters die at -10 or whatever. (unless feats, etc)

LOTRfan
2010-10-12, 05:15 PM
I think the point Godless_Paladin is trying to make is that Hit Points is just an abstract game mechanic. A lethal blow is a lethal blow, higher level characters are just better at avoiding it.

mangosta71
2010-10-12, 05:36 PM
I think it's more realistic for types of attacks to destroy bodies than an arbitrary amount of damage. Examples: a barbarian with a sword/axe probably just cleaves his target in half. A giant smashing someone with a club probably breaks a lot of bones and sends the target flying, but the body remains intact. A fireball probably incinerates its target/blows it into little chunks that litter the battlefield.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-12, 05:36 PM
II guess there's distentegrate (sp?) but what if you didn't want to use that? I mean, for instance, what if a body was sitting in lava, wouldn't it go bye bye after a certain amount of damage?
The only important consideration is that you wouldn't be able to find any part of the body which was immersed in lava, which means you'd be in True Resurrection territory. The same goes if you burnt the body in a pyre, powdered the bones, and tossed the dust into flowing water. But those body disposal methods take time and effort to accomplish. Having one swing of an übercharger's greatsword accomplish the same result is just ridiculous.

Esser-Z
2010-10-12, 05:37 PM
Depends on the weapon.

Massive damage with a giant sword bisects, but doesn't eliminate. A rapier merely stabs clean through a vital organ. A hammer, on the other hand... squish.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-12, 05:41 PM
I think the point Godless_Paladin is trying to make is that Hit Points is just an abstract game mechanic. A lethal blow is a lethal blow, higher level characters are just better at avoiding it.

Exactly. If a knight hits you for 18 points of damage, he could be either impaling you through the heart or even simply fatinguing you by wearing you down with an onslaught of deflected blows. A disintegrate spell could either reduce you to a pile of dirt, or just make a rib disappear with, what is it, 40d6 damage? The point is the effect of hp damage varies based on who is taking that hp damage and what source is dealing that hp damage. For example, if you die from Disintegrate, there is no body left. The amount of damage you took is completely irrelevant. What's important is the proportions. If you lost 100% of your hp or 5% matters more than whether you took 18 damage (after all, 18 damage could very well be 100% or 5%)

100 damage is not necessarily equal to another 100 damage.


Not really, since both characters die at -10 or whatever. (unless feats, etc)

Yes, really. Because 100 damage isn't going to bring a Level 20 Barbarian to -10 and it's definitely going to slaughter the level 1 Wizard.

Saph
2010-10-12, 05:42 PM
As mentioned above, it depends on the type of damage. -100 HP from arrow damage will leave a messy but recognisable corpse. -100 HP from axe swings will leave a much less recognisable corpse, probably scattered in several pieces. -100 HP from lightning damage will leave a crispy steak, -100 HP from fire damage will leave a pile of charcoal, and -100 HP from acid damage will leave nothing at all.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-10-12, 05:44 PM
For me its a matter of theatrics, and I base it more of how much damage the last attack did. If a waraxe critically hits for 90 damage and brings a foe exactly to negative 10. I'd say you cleaved his head off.

Enough damage from a huge warhammer or similar weapon could probably turn a body into a fine paste but you could still be resurrected using that paste. [if the dust from disintegrate is enough so is paste]

Drakevarg
2010-10-12, 09:06 PM
I think a weapon that deals a character's max HP in a single blow should Chunky Salsa them if it's a logical weapon to accomplish as much with. For example, a sword would just cleave them in twain in such a case. But an inflict spell would red mist them.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-12, 09:14 PM
I think a weapon that deals a character's max HP in a single blow should Chunky Salsa them if it's a logical weapon to accomplish as much with. For example, a sword would just cleave them in twain in such a case. But an inflict spell would red mist them.

Funny, I'd look at it the other way. An inflict spell would kill someone with no visible signs of death, as it's negative energy attacking their "life-force" directly to make them just crumple like a puppet without strings; a sword, on the other hand, would be impacting with sufficient kinetic force to not just cleave them in half, but send both halves flying in opposite directions with significant momentum.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-12, 11:48 PM
Once they're dead, treat their body as an object?
So hardness of a raw steak =4? With a few HP per inch of thickness?

I always viewed HP as partially, a better trained person (warrior type) dodges slightly out of the way of a shot which would have gone straight through the heart of a wizard. And as they gain levels, they become better at dodging.
Wizard1: Arrow goes straight through his lungs, and dies.
Warrior archtype level 1 (assuming no armor): Dodges slightly and gets the arrow sticking through his bicep/tricep, with the head lodged in the muscles/flesh of his torso.
High level Warrior : Sees the arrow coming and leans back and the arrow skims past his chest, embedding the fletching in his chest, but causing no appreciable damage.


Funny, I'd look at it the other way. An inflict spell would kill someone with no visible signs of death, as it's negative energy attacking their "life-force" directly to make them just crumple like a puppet without strings; a sword, on the other hand, would be impacting with sufficient kinetic force to not just cleave them in half, but send both halves flying in opposite directions with significant momentum.
Was reading a series of books(Erevis Cale), when one of the characters is on the wrong side of an inflict or harm spell, the author would describe it as his flesh suddenly erupting in wounds, bones breaking, horrific agony, even teeth shattering.

jpreem
2010-10-13, 04:42 AM
Well these spells are called inflict minor/moderate/serious WOUNDS aren't they. So yes I would rule that the target of the inflict spell would get messed up.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-13, 04:57 AM
As in, someone takes like 100 damage over what would kill them. Is their body even still there? Their equipment? How do you rule such?
Oh yeah...

I remember this campaign where I decided that hunting bunnies with explosive magic is not a good strategy, at least not if you expect to have some rabbit left to eat afterwards.

This is a very awesome rule in Paranoia. Damage is on a chart that goes something like "miss - graze - wound - cripple - kill - vaporize" where vaporize means there's nothing left. Then a splatbook expands the list with such nice entries as "vaporize and leave a crater", "vaporize and eradicate everything in a 10-meter radius", and so forth :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-10-13, 05:52 AM
If you want something like that, I'd go with Gyphstone's rules.

Not that this is really important or anything, but gaining a number of temporary hit points equaling your total hit points (or twice that, I don't quite remember) causes you to explode, too.

Never heard of this before. You sure it isn't specific to the positive energy plane or something?

Starbuck_II
2010-10-13, 06:05 AM
Never heard of this before. You sure it isn't specific to the positive energy plane or something?

Yeah, he sounds like he applying a specific as a general rule. Only Positive energy plane + Fort save = death.

panaikhan
2010-10-13, 07:43 AM
Destroying a body is usually much harder than removing it's former occupant. Shock is the most likely killer, not the amount of damage received.
Melee weapons will reshape the remains. A blade makes smaller pieces, blunt trauma simply flattens it out. Even energy damage (flame, acid etc.) would usually leave something behind.

If you really need to flesh this out with game mechanics, then yes, you need to use the 'damage to objects' rules - and I would rule hardness was effective against everything in this instance (if it isn't already, I don't have my books to hand).

Quietus
2010-10-13, 07:56 AM
I just go by the rule of cool. And if the target isn't likely to be picked up for resurrection, well, Chunky Salsa ahoy! If they are, then I'll be a little more lenient in how much crazy damage I'm going to do to a body, unless the person attacking absolutely wants to make the body unfit for resurrection, in which case they can.

KillianHawkeye
2010-10-13, 08:07 AM
I'd say not only do you have to deal a lot of damage, but you also have to get a critical hit. That's when I start describing horrific amounts of bodily damage (assuming the target is killed, of course).

Telonius
2010-10-13, 08:37 AM
I think a weapon that deals a character's max HP in a single blow should Chunky Salsa them if it's a logical weapon to accomplish as much with. For example, a sword would just cleave them in twain in such a case. But an inflict spell would red mist them.

That's about what I do. My threshold for reducing somebody to a bloody puddle is: -10 - (1/2con score*number of hitdice). (Corporeal undead crumble to dust upon slaying, and Constructs use hardness rules after they're dead). So for a level 10 fighter with CON 16, he'd be goo at -90.

big teej
2010-10-13, 10:42 AM
I have often ruled that "as your weapon hits the goblin, it explodes into a fountian of gore... .the room now appears as if a vat of beef stew exploded"

however, I've only ruled that on baddies...

goodies tend to get

"as the secret door swings open, the orc on the other side steps forward and hammers his axe into your chest"

-looks at the rest of the party-
since all of you are standing behind our dearly departed dwarf -character name- you see the orc's axe emerge from his back, he slumps to the ground

but thats just me, and liquiscentness is only obtained by a colossal hit (hitting a gobbo with a fullblade for example)

Drakevarg
2010-10-13, 12:34 PM
Funny, I'd look at it the other way. An inflict spell would kill someone with no visible signs of death, as it's negative energy attacking their "life-force" directly to make them just crumple like a puppet without strings; a sword, on the other hand, would be impacting with sufficient kinetic force to not just cleave them in half, but send both halves flying in opposite directions with significant momentum.

The way I look at is as thus; a cure spell closes wounds, knits bones back together, etc. An inflict spell, being the opposite of a cure spell, has the opposite effect. Opening wounds, breaking bones, other generally nasty stuff. The visuals I use to describe it are "Death by a Thousand Cuts"-stye visuals, like thousands of invisible blades are rapidly slashing at the victim. Enough blades (damage) and the effect will be like tossing someone into a colossal blender.

ericgrau
2010-10-13, 12:38 PM
Funny, I'd look at it the other way. An inflict spell would kill someone with no visible signs of death, as it's negative energy attacking their "life-force" directly to make them just crumple like a puppet without strings

The way I look at it, is you may (or maybe not) have a good point there but I prefer the cooler sounding interpretation(s).

prufock
2010-10-13, 01:01 PM
The body is never "not there," it is simply in smaller pieces. Once a character hits -10, it is dead. It is no longer a creature, but an object. If additional damage is enough to "break" the object, it gets smashed or cut in two. Apart from disintegration (and even then there's a fine dusty residue) or a similar effect, it's never nonexistent.

Cieyrin
2010-10-13, 04:36 PM
The body is never "not there," it is simply in smaller pieces. Once a character hits -10, it is dead. It is no longer a creature, but an object. If additional damage is enough to "break" the object, it gets smashed or cut in two. Apart from disintegration (and even then there's a fine dusty residue) or a similar effect, it's never nonexistent.

This is when that quickened gust of wind comes in just so the high level wizard can be even more of a **** to your players.

herrhauptmann
2010-10-13, 04:54 PM
This is when that quickened gust of wind comes in just so the high level wizard can be even more of a **** to your players.

If disintegrate leaves behind your equipment, I'd suggest a nonmagical thinaun ring. Just make sure the rest of the party knows to grab the ring, cuz that suckers got your soul.
Of course with the ring, they only need half as many diamonds to bring you to life.

Cieyrin
2010-10-13, 05:16 PM
If disintegrate leaves behind your equipment, I'd suggest a nonmagical thinaun ring. Just make sure the rest of the party knows to grab the ring, cuz that suckers got your soul.
Of course with the ring, they only need half as many diamonds to bring you to life.


A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

So yes, that's a valid option. Should probably be standard high level adventurer equipment, really, as that's probably some pretty cheap insurance.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 06:23 PM
My rule-of-thumb is 2x their full HP total in damage dealt to trigger a Chunky Salsa rule. So if someone was at 1 HP, it'd take a single hit equal to their max HP +1 to obliterate their body.

There is no RAW to govern the situation though.

We had a similar rule, but we called it the "Drive-By Orking" rule, in honor of our Orc Barbarian who caused us to implement said rule in the first place.