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View Full Version : So *would* you rather reign in hell or serve in heaven? [D&D/PF]



randomhero00
2010-10-12, 04:54 PM
Old saying but lets apply it to the rules and setting of D&D. TBH I think in this case I'd rather reign in hell. Serving "heaven" in D&D is basically a foot-soldier. Too bad I'd have to be evil. Oh well, sorry puppies.

Flickerdart
2010-10-12, 04:57 PM
Serving in Heaven means anything from a lantern archon to a Solar. Ruling in Hell means at least a Balor.

Solar beats Balor though. Hm.

Chess435
2010-10-12, 05:04 PM
Meh, I always seem to find myself to be good-aligned, so I'd serve in Heaven.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-12, 05:06 PM
Hell. Old Asmo never seems too broken up about his lot in life.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-12, 05:07 PM
Well, unless you're Asmodeous, even reigning in hell still means someone is reigning over you, and probably making your immortal life miserable at every opportunity, with your only outlet making those beneath you more miserable.

Serving in Heaven is the same, but without the misery, and you can probably work your way up the ladder by means other than repeated Klingon Promotions eventually.

Xefas
2010-10-12, 05:08 PM
In D&D? Serve in heaven. It's much less cutthroat there.

You think you're going to get to reign in Hell? You're better off playing the lottery. The chances any individual soul is actually going to become one of the ruling elite like a Paeliryon or a Pit Fiend is infinitesimal. It's far more likely that, even if you are an exceptional individual that exemplifies power and worth, you'll still be one of the many oft-tortured footstools for the people who really matter, spending eternity attempting to climb a corporate ladder that is specifically designed to screw you over, but by your very nature as an Outsider, you are incapable of denying. And, even if you do manage to become a Pit Fiend and truly "Rule in Hell", you're one mistake away from getting busted down to a barely-sentient Nupperibo until the end of time.

In Heaven? Well, lets say you're a peon. The lowest of the low. A Lantern Archon stationed in Lunia. You're still surrounded by crowds of loving people who appreciate everything you do, with both natural and artistic splendor as far as the eye can see. And, even if you're an ambitious individual, and having all of your needs taken care of for you isn't enough, you're welcome to attempt to climb the ladder up to a higher purpose without having to worry about all that nasty mutilation of the mind, body, and soul business if you aren't good enough, unlike in Hell.

randomhero00
2010-10-12, 05:08 PM
Hell. Old Asmo never seems too broken up about his lot in life.

No kidding. Besides, if you ruled you could even try to impose some sort of, I don't know, better code of conduct. At least keep the profanely evil acts from occuring. Release the good souls. That sort of thing.

Serving heaven in DnD would...suck. Join us, evil bretheren!

randomhero00
2010-10-12, 05:09 PM
In D&D? Serve in heaven. It's much less cutthroat there.

You think you're going to get to reign in Hell? You're better off playing the lottery. The chances any individual soul is actually going to become one of the ruling elite like a Paeliryon or a Pit Fiend is infinitesimal. It's far more likely that, even if you are an exceptional individual that exemplifies power and worth, you'll still be one of the many oft-tortured footstools for the people who really matter, spending eternity attempting to climb a corporate ladder that is specifically designed to screw you over, but by your very nature as an Outsider, you are incapable of denying. And, even if you do manage to become a Pit Fiend and truly "Rule in Hell", you're one mistake away from getting busted down to a barely-sentient Nupperibo until the end of time.

In Heaven? Well, lets say you're a peon. The lowest of the low. A Lantern Archon stationed in Lunia. You're still surrounded by crowds of loving people who appreciate everything you do, with both natural and artistic splendor as far as the eye can see. And, even if you're an ambitious individual, and having all of your needs taken care of for you isn't enough, you're welcome to attempt to climb the ladder up to a higher purpose without having to worry about all that nasty mutilation of the mind, body, and soul business if you aren't good enough, unlike in Hell.

Some good points in the 2nd paragraph. But I disagree with the 1st. With this assumption you *are* reigning in hell. You are de facto leader.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:10 PM
Lantern Archon

Or even Hound Archon in their 2e role as guide to the lower layers of Mount Celestia (they aren't usually foot soldiers, seeing as how Celestia doesn't keep standing armies normally).

Laid back, you get to meet nice people, and the nice warm feeling of helping people. And when you've worked a good day's work you get to kick back in an inn (thankfully Celestia has no rule barring alcohol).

Valameer
2010-10-12, 05:15 PM
Heaven's a way nicer place. Plus if you advanced, you'd eventually get to be a solar.

I think floating around paradise as a lantern archon would be pretty cool, actually.

Ruling in Hell is just painting a big fat bullseye on yourself. Great, now everyone wants to usurp you - hope you can outwit all the most devious souls to ever exist! You'd have no true allies, only enemies, as far as the eye can see. Sure, they're weaker than you... for now.

Flickerdart
2010-10-12, 05:16 PM
Lantern Archon

Or even Hound Archon in their 2e role as guide to the lower layers of Mount Celestia (they aren't usually foot soldiers, seeing as how Celestia doesn't keep standing armies normally).

Laid back, you get to meet nice people, and the nice warm feeling of helping people. And when you've worked a good day's work you get to kick back in an inn (thankfully Celestia has no rule barring alcohol).
Alcohol = poison = wrongbad. :smalltongue:

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:17 PM
Alcohol = poison = wrongbad. :smalltongue:

Still Celestia has had pubs and inns, and famous breweries since 2e.

Flickerdart
2010-10-12, 05:18 PM
Still Celestia has had pubs and inns, and famous breweries since 2e.
Imagine an eternity of non-alcoholic beer.

Eldan
2010-10-12, 05:19 PM
Yeah... but from the 4th (I think) layer up, everyone becomes immune to all poisons.


Anyway, can I serve in Arborea instead?

LOTRfan
2010-10-12, 05:22 PM
Yeah, why don't the Chaotic Planes get any love? :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-10-12, 05:23 PM
Well, unless you're Asmodeous, even reigning in hell still means someone is reigning over you, and probably making your immortal life miserable at every opportunity, with your only outlet making those beneath you more miserable.

Asmo isn't so bad at all, unless you try to cross him. Granted, it's hell, so a LOT of betrayal is going on, but so long as you can keep your ego in check, it's not a bad life.

El Dorado
2010-10-12, 05:24 PM
Heaven. Not much for heat.

Xefas
2010-10-12, 05:26 PM
Some good points in the 2nd paragraph. But I disagree with the 1st. With this assumption you *are* reigning in hell. You are de facto leader.

Okay, so, are we talking "At the point where one could reasonably refer to you as being in a leadership position", such as a Paeliryon, Pit Fiend, or Duke? Or are we talking "Asmodeus"?

My assumption was the former, but if it was the latter, I apologize, and would rebut with the following:

If you are Asmodeus, you are merely the king of fools. You have concocted the perfect pyramid scheme, whereby each tier is drowned in constant misery, and works tirelessly for you such that they might reach the next higher tier and experience a slightly lessened sense of misery.

And yet, what do you have? You are at the top of the pyramid and still miserable. You had a wife, but she was murdered by one of your own underlings as a product of the misery that you wrought upon him. You have money, power, and luxury such that no mortal could ever conceive of. And when do you enjoy it? Every minute of every day is spent orchestrating counter-espionage such that the den of fools and murderers you have created does not rise up and usurp you. You claim to be fulfilling a higher purpose in the grand scheme of the cosmos, but universally you are hated. Your friends and family are indistinguishable from your most stalwart foes. Any moment of vulnerability will be met by a knife in the back from every corner of every plane in the multiverse.

In the end, you're just a sad little cog in a big sad machine, turning and turning thanklessly because you can do nothing else. Nothing else but stew in your hate and misery, because in this machine, there is nowhere for you to go but down.

some guy
2010-10-12, 05:27 PM
Alcohol = poison = wrongbad. :smalltongue:

Maybe it's a special alcohol; instead of poison, it's a ravage!

Anyway, most arguments for serving in heaven have already been made.
One argument against reigning in hell is that you'd probably need to be constantly on the lookout for overambitious (read: backstabbing and betraying) henchmen. Makes one quite paranoid, I would imagine.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:27 PM
If we're going beyond Celestia; Arborea would be great, Bytopia would be nice as long as there aren't Tinker Gnomes, Elysium might be okay; Ysgard would be fun (all night drinking and wenching, all day fighting and dying and being revived to fight and die again).

Eldan
2010-10-12, 05:33 PM
Let's see the spectrum here.

The Outlands would be nice for a bit of adventuring, and depending on where you live, not much different from the prime, if weirder.

Celestia: meh. I'm not one for self-perfection, really.
Bytopia: I'm even less one for honest work :smalltongue:
Elysium: it's peaceful, and probably quite beautiful. I'd take it.
Beastlands: also nice. Turning into an animal is intriguing.
Arborea: parties, exploration, art, ancient ruins, beautiful nature, adventuring... yeah. My favourite.
Ysgard: the nights are nice, and the people probably not too bad, but I dislike fights.
Limbo: intriguing. If you have the force of will, you can carve your own world from raw chaos matter.
Pandemonium: no. Really, no.
Abyss: see Pandemonium.
Carceri: same.
The Wastes: probably the worst option.
Gehenna: see Pandemonium to carceri.
Baator: could work.
Acheron: see comments about fighting. This I'd also put among the worst options, along with the wastes.
Mechanus: would probably just bore me. It would have great libraries, but I can't read forever, can I? Also, too lawful.
Arcadia: hmm. I never really got what the theme of Arcadia was supposed to be, to be honest.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:37 PM
Arcadia reminds me of 1984; you will be good and happy or else. I never liked it at all.

Eldan
2010-10-12, 05:38 PM
That's just the Harmonium, though. The question is, is the plane itself like this, and was it like that before the Hardheads took over?

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:40 PM
That's just the Harmonium, though. The question is, is the plane itself like this, and was it like that before the Hardheads took over?

Which never seems to be answered; except that they lost a layer of it because the Harmonium's methods were too evil to be considered LG in the least and they might lose another layer... would the baatezu want that?

Eldan
2010-10-12, 05:42 PM
It weakens Arcadia and strengthens Mechanus... Mechanus would be less unfriendly towards the Baatezu than Arcadia, so yes. It also got the Modrons and Formians into war, which is another point the Baatezu shouldn't be entirely opposed to. Except, perhaps, if they needed Arcadia to fight the Tanar'ri for them.

Xefas
2010-10-12, 05:43 PM
Arcadia is basically the "No surprises." afterlife.

Every moment of every day is expected. The day/night cycle is literally 12 hours of noontime followed in a split second by 12 hours of midnight. All the trees grow perfectly equidistant from each other, have the same number of leaves, and each leaf is the same shape. The temperature is always exactly the same everywhere, being both comfortable and unexciting.

Actually, that's the best way to put it. Comfortable, yet unexciting.

The perfect afterlife for a Lord of the Rings Hobbit to go.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:48 PM
Arcadia is basically the "No surprises." afterlife.

Every moment of every day is expected. The day/night cycle is literally 12 hours of noontime followed in a split second by 12 hours of midnight. All the trees grow perfectly equidistant from each other, have the same number of leaves, and each leaf is the same shape. The temperature is always exactly the same everywhere, being both comfortable and unexciting.

Actually, that's the best way to put it. Comfortable, yet unexciting.

The perfect afterlife for a Lord of the Rings Hobbit to go.

I physically shuddered in revulsion.

Blood_caller
2010-10-12, 05:51 PM
Going to lick the froggs in Limbo, let the party begin always somthing new here (just love the Society of Sensation)

Eldan
2010-10-12, 05:52 PM
Yeah, me too. Though halflings, canonically, mostly go to Celestia, with a minority to Bytopia.

Anyway, I want to go to Arborea. At least that one's exciting.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 05:55 PM
Arborea is tempting; imagine the woods there :smallsigh:

But I'd rather seek self-perfection on Celestia; never would achieve it but hey even Lunia is paradise.

Eldan
2010-10-12, 05:55 PM
Lunia is a little wet. Also, constant night would get boring fast.

Xefas
2010-10-12, 06:07 PM
It's a tough decision, to be sure. I like Elysium quite a bit, though the furries would take a while to get used to. I have no specific dislike of furries, but living in Elysium would be like that feeling you get when you type in "Ganondorf" in the Deviantart search to find some awesome pics of Ganondorf, and you get like 46 pages of Ganondorf furries. It's not bad, it's just not what I wanted.

Celestia is definitely up there, but it seems to me it might get a little frustrating at times. What if I want a little conflict mixed in with my happiness?

So, obviously, Ysgard sounds cool. It's like being at a LAN party for eternity. Nothing but days filled with fighting, respawning, fighting, and then nights of cheer and merriment.

Unfortunately, I don't think I could keep up being competitive forever. Eventually I would want to just sit down and have a civil discussion, which would of course be met by a large Norse man crushing a solid stone goblet on his forehead and yelling "BOOOO, NO TALKIN' BRAH! GO GET YER SPEAR AND WE'LL START THE BROPOCALYPSE! WOOOOOO"

Maybe the Outlands are the place for me. Rent out a crappy little apartment in Sigil, sandwiched between two Bearded Devil newlyweds with a baby that is both hideous and cries with the infernal dissonance of a thousand nails on a thousand chalkboards, and an old man Astral Deva who won't stop knocking on his ceiling with a broomstick and telling me to "Keep it down!". Sampling the fine melting pot of cuisine from all across the planes. Go see some Modron Metal Bands at Primus Square Garden.

Wouldn't be too bad. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-10-12, 06:12 PM
It's a tough decision, to be sure. I like Elysium quite a bit, though the furries would take a while to get used to. I have no specific dislike of furries, but living in Elysium would be like that feeling you get when you type in "Ganondorf" in the Deviantart search to find some awesome pics of Ganondorf, and you get like 46 pages of Ganondorf furries. It's not bad, it's just not what I wanted.

Celestia is definitely up there, but it seems to me it might get a little frustrating at times. What if I want a little conflict mixed in with my happiness?

So, obviously, Ysgard sounds cool. It's like being at a LAN party for eternity. Nothing but days filled with fighting, respawning, fighting, and then nights of cheer and merriment.

Unfortunately, I don't think I could keep up being competitive forever. Eventually I would want to just sit down and have a civil discussion, which would of course be met by a large Norse man crushing a solid stone goblet on his forehead and yelling "BOOOO, NO TALKIN' BRAH! GO GET YER SPEAR AND WE'LL START THE BROPOCALYPSE! WOOOOOO"

Maybe the Outlands are the place for me. Rent out a crappy little apartment in Sigil, sandwiched between two Bearded Devil newlyweds with a baby that is both hideous and cries with the infernal dissonance of a thousand nails on a thousand chalkboards, and an old man Astral Deva who won't stop knocking on his ceiling with a broomstick and telling me to "Keep it down!". Sampling the fine melting pot of cuisine from all across the planes. Go see some Modron Metal Bands at Primus Square Garden.

Wouldn't be too bad. :smallwink:


Don't forget the frat boys from Sigil Prep getting drunk and TP-ing your house every third Friday or so.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-12, 06:20 PM
{Scrubbed}

Huh, apparently I'm not allowed to say that I think it matters which heaven or hell you're talking about. :smallconfused:

MammonAzrael
2010-10-12, 06:22 PM
As Xykon said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), if you wind up in the Outer Planes you just didn't have the balls to stay in the game. :smallsmile:

But as for the original question...I'd choose Heaven every time. Assuming I'm not serving Pelor, the Burning Hate. :smalltongue:

LOTRfan
2010-10-12, 06:22 PM
Maybe the Outlands are the place for me. Rent out a crappy little apartment in Sigil, sandwiched between two Bearded Devil newlyweds with a baby that is both hideous and cries with the infernal dissonance of a thousand nails on a thousand chalkboards, and an old man Astral Deva who won't stop knocking on his ceiling with a broomstick and telling me to "Keep it down!". Sampling the fine melting pot of cuisine from all across the planes. Go see some Modron Metal Bands at Primus Square Garden.

Wouldn't be too bad. :smallwink:


Don't forget the frat boys from Sigil Prep getting drunk and TP-ing your house every third Friday or so.


And don't forget the annoying Slaadi from down the street. They can't finish a sentence without changing the subject five or six times....

Thrawn183
2010-10-12, 06:58 PM
Don't forget, even if you get to rule in hell, you can still get turned into a slug or something.

Urpriest
2010-10-12, 07:02 PM
Don't forget, even if you get to rule in hell, you can still get turned into a slug or something.

Or even a layer. See the Hag Countess.

Sploosh
2010-10-12, 07:03 PM
Between just heaven and hell? I'd probably go with hell. I think the biggest problem would be getting access to mindrape. Hell is a lot less scary when you are in a comfortable position, not threatening your superiors so they want you to stay because that means they dont have to watch thier back so much. Likewise, mindraped minions won't betray you. :D


If I get to pick any of the ever-afters though...BROPOCALYPSE!

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 07:10 PM
In Ysgard's defense you actually could have quite detailed poetry contests at night; the Norsemen had to deal with LONG nights frozen into a house together, they had plenty of conversations and there's a reason their sagas are so long and full of minor characters and names.

Urpriest
2010-10-12, 07:13 PM
In Ysgard's defense you actually could have quite detailed poetry contests at night; the Norsemen had to deal with LONG nights frozen into a house together, they had plenty of conversations and there's a reason their sagas are so long and full of minor characters and names.

Plus, you don't have to live with Kord. Olidammara also lives in Ysgard, and his house is more of a gambling den than a battlefield. I could even see D&D games going on there if the DM wanted to get significantly meta.

Winter_Wolf
2010-10-12, 07:25 PM
I'd rather party and brawl in Ysgard than deal with D&D Heaven or Hell. 'Cause I'm good at partying and brawling, and if the price to pay is the occasional spear in the lung for the remainder of eternity, which is healed at the end of the day, that's cool with me. Plus, you know, the Æsir are a pretty interesting bunch of folk.

chiasaur11
2010-10-12, 07:33 PM
Lets see.

Be in a miserable mess of a dimension, where everyone else, ever is out for your throat to the point where being Havelock Vetinari would hardly guarantee safety, and the slightest mistake will lead to eternal suffering, surrounded by the worst of the worst

OR

A bar. Where nothing, nothing ever happens. The music's good, and somehow nothing at all is exciting and "so much fun". Or maybe that's a talking heads song.

Bit of a gimmee.

Blue Ghost
2010-10-12, 07:44 PM
I'm a Lawful Good type who desires happiness for all, yet lacks the leadership to make it happen. Serving in heaven sounds perfect for me! :smallsmile:
Ruling in Hell... Yuk. Treacheries and backstabbing everywhere, and what is having power over others if you can't be happy? And to have to listen to those poor souls in eternal torment every day...

Ormur
2010-10-12, 07:53 PM
I'd definitely want to end up somewhere good aligned but I'm not sure where the lazy good people can go. Maybe working would always be fun in Bytopia and I guess that alignment-wise I'd like to belong there (lawful good good). Elysium if of course nice but the idea of loosing ones self is not appealing although since we're talking about eternity perhaps that's a good way of not getting bored. The Beastlands sound okay, sure I like animals, but not really hunting them, in my experience that's just a lot of waiting topped with gore. The same goes for Arborea and Ysgard, plus I guess the pranks of chaotic outsiders would just go on my nerves.

I'm all for social interdependence so if there was some sophisticated urban area focused on entertainment and scholarship in Bytopia that would be the ideal place for me.

Coidzor
2010-10-12, 08:23 PM
Imagine an eternity of non-alcoholic beer.

The Dwarves, they are not amused.

Actually, heck, they probably set it up that way on purpose so that the dwarves would willingly opt for any assignment that gets them out of the afterlife...

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 08:25 PM
Traditionally it was alcoholic bear. Apparently alcohol is an exception to poison = bad.

Or BoED is just a little (self-)contradictory in some places.

Specially since dwarves are the ones that don't get sent out to fight.

druid91
2010-10-12, 08:51 PM
Heaven's a way nicer place. Plus if you advanced, you'd eventually get to be a solar.

I think floating around paradise as a lantern archon would be pretty cool, actually.

Ruling in Hell is just painting a big fat bullseye on yourself. Great, now everyone wants to usurp you - hope you can outwit all the most devious souls to ever exist! You'd have no true allies, only enemies, as far as the eye can see. Sure, they're weaker than you... for now.

Yes but everything is more fun that way, beat down a coup here, slaughter an assassin there It'd get boring if people weren't trying to constantly usurp you.



Okay, so, are we talking "At the point where one could reasonably refer to you as being in a leadership position", such as a Paeliryon, Pit Fiend, or Duke? Or are we talking "Asmodeus"?

My assumption was the former, but if it was the latter, I apologize, and would rebut with the following:

If you are Asmodeus, you are merely the king of fools. You have concocted the perfect pyramid scheme, whereby each tier is drowned in constant misery, and works tirelessly for you such that they might reach the next higher tier and experience a slightly lessened sense of misery.

And yet, what do you have? You are at the top of the pyramid and still miserable. You had a wife, but she was murdered by one of your own underlings as a product of the misery that you wrought upon him. You have money, power, and luxury such that no mortal could ever conceive of. And when do you enjoy it? Every minute of every day is spent orchestrating counter-espionage such that the den of fools and murderers you have created does not rise up and usurp you. You claim to be fulfilling a higher purpose in the grand scheme of the cosmos, but universally you are hated. Your friends and family are indistinguishable from your most stalwart foes. Any moment of vulnerability will be met by a knife in the back from every corner of every plane in the multiverse.

In the end, you're just a sad little cog in a big sad machine, turning and turning thanklessly because you can do nothing else. Nothing else but stew in your hate and misery, because in this machine, there is nowhere for you to go but down.

No you have the greatest plaything in the multiverse, Namely Baator. I mean really, that is an eternity of entertainment right there. You get to legitimately "Fire" annoying underlings.



Ruling in Hell... Yuk. Treacheries and backstabbing everywhere, and what is having power over others if you can't be happy? And to have to listen to those poor souls in eternal torment every day...

But the backstabbing treachery is half the fun! You can be perfectly happy in hell, you just can't be, well good and happy. The best you can aspire to is a sort of neutral happiness.
If they are in eternal torment they are probably evil. Stupid and evil. since if they were smart they would've repented at the last moment throwing themselves in front of the exploding spear aimed for the baby kitten orphanage, Instant vader effect. Or just not be dead.

Aron Times
2010-10-12, 08:59 PM
In 4e, the question would be, "Would you rather reign as a Demigod or serve as a Chosen?" Basically, at level 21, would you prefer the freedom of being your own boss (Demigod) or the convenience of working for an established company (Chosen)?

Chosen and Demigods have the same epic destiny features, but the various Chosen's daily power varies depending on who he serves (Demigods all get Divine Regeneration). They're basically roughly equal in power, the only difference, as I mentioned above, is that the Demigod is a freelance god, albeit a weak one, while the Chosen serves his deity's cause.

In this case, I would be a Demigod. I became my own god and you can too!TM

Drakevarg
2010-10-12, 08:59 PM
I'd hang out in Ysgard, definately. I mean, I don't know who else here has gotten into sword fights, but I don't think you'd have much trouble finding civil discussion in the midst of bloody combat. There's bound to be a few Warrior Poets around. :smallamused:

Comparatively the Lower Planes just seem to be several planes of existance whose only purpose is constant one-upmanship in the "Who Can Be the Biggest *******" contest. :smallannoyed:

Amiel
2010-10-12, 09:06 PM
Heaven is for chumps and idealists. Heaven does not understand power, and in its ignorance deigns to squash it, not to nurture or nourish it.

Perdition is where the wheels of ambition and power are well-oiled. More importantly, no small amount of pasties exist within Perdition to manipulate and drive ever-forthwith. To reign in Hell is the divine will, and My Will Be Done.

Amiel
2010-10-12, 09:08 PM
Serving in Heaven means anything from a lantern archon to a Solar. Ruling in Hell means at least a Balor.

Solar beats Balor though. Hm.

Pit fiends, there are no balors in Hell; balors are demons.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 09:12 PM
snip

Demigod definitely.


I'd hang out in Ysgard, definately. I mean, I don't know who else here has gotten into sword fights, but I don't think you'd have much trouble finding civil discussion in the midst of bloody combat. There's bound to be a few Warrior Poets around. :smallamused:

Comparatively the Lower Planes just seem to be several planes of existance whose only purpose is constant one-upmanship in the "Who Can Be the Biggest *******" contest. :smallannoyed:

Seeing as how all the greatest Nordic warriors were poets (yes they believed skill at arms and skill of poetry went hand and hand) and Odin was the God of Poets I'd say there would be plenty enough. Just watch out for Grettir, he'll write a poem insulting you and stab you with his shortsword while you're recoiling from the scathing blow to your honor.

Amiel
2010-10-12, 09:16 PM
In Ysgard's defense you actually could have quite detailed poetry contests at night; the Norsemen had to deal with LONG nights frozen into a house together, they had plenty of conversations and there's a reason their sagas are so long and full of minor characters and names.

Male bonding? To some, that's like a hell in itself.

Zaydos
2010-10-12, 09:19 PM
Male bonding?

Outlawry. Punishable by death. You could also divorce your husband if he accidentally wore a shirt with a woman's cut (or if your wife wore clothes cut in a man's fashion); there's apparently a long story about that one. My Norse culture class teacher did not have us read it.

Besides that's what the battlefield is for; how better for two men to bond than at sword point :smallwink:

AmberVael
2010-10-12, 09:24 PM
Traditionally it was alcoholic bear.

...you're saying that if I go to heaven, I will find alcoholic bears waiting for me?

:smalleek:

HELL! I CHOOSE HELL!

druid91
2010-10-12, 09:25 PM
Besides that's what the battlefield is for; how better for two men to bond than at sword point :smallwink:


Over a diabolical thirty xanatos pile-up?

Soren Hero
2010-10-12, 09:27 PM
...you're saying that if I go to heaven, I will find alcoholic bears waiting for me?

:smalleek:

HELL! I CHOOSE HELL!

can i sig this?

AmberVael
2010-10-12, 09:35 PM
can i sig this?

Go for it. ^-^

Amiel
2010-10-12, 09:35 PM
Alcoholic bears are clearly the older, wiser, cooler cousin of gummy bears, and don't let anyone else tell you different.


Lunia is a little wet.

That is like saying the desert is a little dry. Both fail to accurately and adequately convey the situation.

Tyrant
2010-10-12, 10:20 PM
If you are Asmodeus, you are merely the king of fools. You have concocted the perfect pyramid scheme, whereby each tier is drowned in constant misery, and works tirelessly for you such that they might reach the next higher tier and experience a slightly lessened sense of misery.

And yet, what do you have? You are at the top of the pyramid and still miserable. You had a wife, but she was murdered by one of your own underlings as a product of the misery that you wrought upon him. You have money, power, and luxury such that no mortal could ever conceive of. And when do you enjoy it? Every minute of every day is spent orchestrating counter-espionage such that the den of fools and murderers you have created does not rise up and usurp you. You claim to be fulfilling a higher purpose in the grand scheme of the cosmos, but universally you are hated. Your friends and family are indistinguishable from your most stalwart foes. Any moment of vulnerability will be met by a knife in the back from every corner of every plane in the multiverse.

In the end, you're just a sad little cog in a big sad machine, turning and turning thanklessly because you can do nothing else. Nothing else but stew in your hate and misery, because in this machine, there is nowhere for you to go but down.
I thought Asmodeus was an actual god now, along with ruiling hell. So, he has actually gone up a step that his competition may not be able to achieve. Besides, as others have said, the treachery is half the fun. Why sit around when you can plot and scheme over centuries on a level that can effect the entire multiverse and the rest of the pantheon being your only true equals? Who wouldn't want to see the result of a 30 xanatos pile up? Ruiling hell offers endless entertainment.

Amiel
2010-10-12, 10:37 PM
Asmodeus orchestrated the Reckoning, which restructured the power hierarchies of Hell to his liking, culminating in several Xanatos Gambits that disposed sitting Lords (Baazlebul and Mephistopheles being the two most prominent), his own Queen (who some say knew too much), and formed the Dark Eight (this may be apocryphal).
Asmodeus toppled Zariel using Bel as his lackey. Bel is in no position to challenge any sitting Lord, yet.
Asmodeus installed Baalzebul to regency over the Seventh Hell, and when the Lord of the Flies got too ambitious, Asmodeus painfully reshaped the form of Baalzebul into a disgusting slug-like creature.
Asmodeus forced Belial to rule with his daughter, Fierana.
Asmodeus drove Dispater to such paranoia, that the Lord of the Second dares not make any such overly aggressive move. Some say Dispater's regency over the Second Hell is one of stagnancy.
Mammon grovelled at the feet of Asmodeus and begged him to reinstate his Lordship.
Asmodeus imprisoned Levistus into an immense iceberg, never to taste, feel, touch.
Asmodeus explosively detonated the body of the Hag Countess.
Mephistopheles cannot hope to best Asmodeus.
Unlike the other lower planes, Perdition has never been invaded.
Asmodeus manipulated the other deities into giving him the Nine Hells and exemplifying Lawful Evil as he saw fit, when he was not a god.
Asmodeus is now a god, and in PF's cosmology severely pimp-slapped (destroyed) another creator deity.

In conclusion, Asmodeus is more badass than thou art.

The Tygre
2010-10-13, 01:07 AM
And for all this, Asmodeus will never be happy. Look at that track record; not even one of those problems came from Heaven. Asmodeus has literally done more against Baator than most archangels and throne archons. I'll serve in Heaven any day. Although a middle class position in Purgatory is okay too. Just okay though. I mean it could be worse, but really it could be a lot better on some fronts.

Morithias
2010-10-13, 01:15 AM
Question, although "serve in heaven" is one of the options. I'm pretty sure the heaven parts, don't force people to work for them like the devils do. I mean if they tried any celestial could easily talk them into letting them resign, and do something else up there with one word.

"Erinyes"

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 01:18 AM
Which of the Upper Planes are we talking about?

The LG ones (Arcadia, Celestia, Bytopia) all are populated only by hard-working souls who always put out a good day's work.

Makes me wonder for a second why I'd choose Celestia over everywhere else (ah yes it's the quest for self-enlightenment).

Now the CG planes it's rather hard to serve, well you could serve a fey court, the elf gods, or Zeus I guess.

Zen Master
2010-10-13, 02:17 AM
Hell. Old Asmo never seems too broken up about his lot in life.

That's because he's described incorrectly in all sources. Everyone, from the lowliest dretch and all the way up - everyone in hell suffers endlessly, no exceptions.

In actual fact (which of course means 'in actual opinion') the dreadful truth of hell is that ambition is rewarded with even more suffering. As you claw your way ever higher in the infernal heirarchy, your punishment and suffering intensifies in turn.

Asmodeus suffers more than anyone.

In my personal cosmology, you must struggle ever harder to climb in rank - and for ever longer. When you finally reach the top spot, you realise that after 999 years, you will be bumped right to the bottom and start all over.

Of course, knowledge of this particular fact will be erased from your mind.

Hell isn't a reward for anyone. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh - answering the OP ... yea - I'd rather serve in heaven.

Nero24200
2010-10-13, 02:21 AM
I go for serving in heaven simply because...well, by it's very definition of existance, it's heaven, a paradise, rather than ruling a collection of creatures that will happily stab me when I turn my back on them for just a sec.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 02:31 AM
And for all this, Asmodeus will never be happy. Look at that track record; not even one of those problems came from Heaven. I'll serve in Heaven any day. Although a middle class position in Purgatory is okay too. Just okay though. I mean it could be worse, but really it could be a lot better on some fronts.

Perdition still represents the singularly greatest threat to the rest of the cosmos than the other lower realities, all this at the behest of Asmodeus.
He shaped meaning from meaningless (evil is inherently meaningless, but ironically, good is in part shaped and defined by it).
He does not debase himself; he rules absolutely from a position of absolute power. Never once was he challenged, and always seemed to resolve the actions of pretenders to his throne with seemingly offensive ease.


Asmodeus has literally done more against Baator than most archangels and throne archons.

No, he merely corrected his wayward children. The fallibilities of the actions of the other Lords would have weakened Perdition's position in the cosmos.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-13, 04:11 AM
The comparison of "lantern archon" or "balor" is a bit unfair. The leader of a team of three dretches is also reigning in hell (albeit of a very very small part).

So would I rather be Lantern or Dretch? Celestia wins. Solar or Balor? Celestia wins.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 04:17 AM
However, there are no dretches or balors in Hell, there are lemures and pit fiends though.

Calmar
2010-10-13, 04:22 AM
Serving in Heaven means anything from a lantern archon to a Solar. Ruling in Hell means at least a Balor.

Not as long as the devils have something to say about that! :smallwink:

Amiel
2010-10-13, 04:24 AM
And you only ever get to serve, never to rule. It's like there will always be a milestone placed around your neck.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-13, 04:30 AM
Oh yeah: if you've read the Sandman comics (which I heartily recommend) then you'll see that ruling hell is not all it's cracked up to be.That is, the ruler of hell quits. And hands the keys to Dream. Eek!

Morithias
2010-10-13, 05:01 AM
Oh yeah: if you've read the Sandman comics (which I heartily recommend) then you'll see that ruling hell is not all it's cracked up to be.That is, the ruler of hell quits. And hands the keys to Dream. Eek!

At least when you're serving in heaven you're probably going to enjoy it. Isn't it suppose to be heaven for everyone even the workers?

Plus I bet the benefits are awesome.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 07:07 AM
However, the devils have a better dental plan.


Who'd want a chump like that Lucifer running Perdition? :smalltongue: Better for him to go, I say.

Coidzor
2010-10-13, 07:17 AM
Who is in charge of the Heavens in D&D anyway? :smallconfused:

It seems to be made up entirely of various hierarchies of servants who are not necessarily affiliated/subservient to the various gods in the area, so one could still advance in the hierarchy while serving, so that's a no-go on being stuck as the lowliest form of celestial.

panaikhan
2010-10-13, 07:23 AM
Imagine an eternity of non-alcoholic beer.

There's Hell, right there :smallsmile:

On-topic, I'd choose to rule in hell. No way heaven would even give me a visa.

Maryring
2010-10-13, 07:25 AM
Heaven. No doubt. All the heavens have cool, hard working, earnest folks, with days filled with all sorts of fun stuff to do. Mind games, mental puzzles, hard work, artistic expressions... anything you want. Also. Friends. And no need for paranoia. Would do me good.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 07:42 AM
Who is in charge of the Heavens in D&D anyway? :smallconfused:

That's a good question; since Celestia is also a lawful plane, it should, by its very composition, have a ruler.
According to the BoED, the entity presiding over the final Heaven, Chronias, is Zaphkiel. Presumably he is "in charge of Heaven."

Ruinix
2010-10-13, 08:05 AM
serve in heaven. im always found my self light/good aligned.

Renchard
2010-10-13, 08:52 AM
And you only ever get to serve, never to rule. It's like there will always be a milestone placed around your neck.

The enlightment of Celestia teaches us that when we try to rule all those around us, we end up only as the slave to our base nature. In Celestia, you are the ruler because you are the servant of all.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 09:00 AM
The devils do away with the fallacy of this logic by offering a simple truth, to rule is to rule, power is there for the taking.
The enlightenment proffered by Celestia is yet more lies to entice those to meekly submit to those 'who know better.'

Mordokai
2010-10-13, 10:05 AM
Serve in heaven. I got tired of looking out for backstabbing bastard on this mortal coil already and I have not been around here for even 30 years. Doing it for all the eternity... not a chance in Hell. And yes, pun was intended.

I'm also not one for heat.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 10:10 AM
Heat in Hell? Surely the mortals jest :P; there's no heat in Cania, little heat in Avernus (apart from the constant shower of fireballs), little heat in Maladommini, Minaurous is a vast swamp, and Stygia is practically frozen over.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 10:20 AM
Just like Lunia being too damp was a jest; there's a sea for sure, but plenty of coast as well.

Also you can find non-lawful and non-good creatures there (the 2e Planeswalker's Handbook had a CN or possibly even CE tiefling that lived there, on his way to repentence; ran an inn).

Amiel
2010-10-13, 10:25 AM
I think Xanxost directed some planewalkers to the elemental reality of water, likening it to a puddle of water. The tourists weren't impressed.
The Silver Sea is vast, perhaps bigger than most oceans upon the mortal coil.


However, the creatures may find it extremely uncomfortable there (if by going on the 3e Manual of the Planes rules), given the equal focus of the plane on law and good. They surely suffer for being there. Surely good should not cause others to suffer.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 10:44 AM
Serve in heaven. I got tired of looking out for backstabbing bastards on this mortal coil already and I have not been around here for even 20 years. Doing it for all the eternity... not a chance in Hell. And yes, pun was intended.
.

lightly modified to reflect on my own life instead of yours.:smalltongue:

Yeah, I'd rather be a lantern archon in heaven than Asmodeus in hell.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 10:52 AM
But, but a lantern archon only has Int 6 :smalleek: and not much better Wis; you'll be worse off as a lantern archon than who you are now.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 10:54 AM
But, but a lantern archon only has Int 6 :smalleek: and not much better Wis; you'll be worse off as a lantern archon than who you are now, much worse off.

Yes, but I can eventually get up to a Solar and I'll be much better off.

Even if I couldn't. I'd rather be dumb and happy than smart and being constantly tortured by the fact that everybody in the universe wants me dead.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 10:58 AM
Also if we really want to get nearest the Milton quote it would be 3rd (or 4th) highest in heaven to highest in hell.

And seriously I'd rather be a unique solar than Asmodeus any day; though I'd prefer to be a hound archon. The solar has too much responsibility.

Maryring
2010-10-13, 11:07 AM
I'd be content as long as I had feet. If I could choose what I'd end up as, it'd probably be Mustelid. They're cute.

Eldan
2010-10-13, 11:52 AM
Who is in charge of the Heavens in D&D anyway? :smallconfused:


The Archons are not subservient to the gods, they are a paralell hierarchy. Everyone in Celestia works towards perfection and enlightenment. One can only advance to a higher layer by following the path of a virtue and perfecting it.
The only creature to have ever reached the top layer, Chronias, and have returned, is Zaphkiel, the highest of Tome Archons. He could be said to rule, as he is at the top of the Archon hierarchy.

Also, people should really start reading up on their cosmology. Solars are not part of Celestia's hierarchy, they are Aasimon, not Archons. You can't go from Lantern to Solar.

Morithias
2010-10-13, 02:04 PM
The Archons are not subservient to the gods, they are a paralell hierarchy. Everyone in Celestia works towards perfection and enlightenment. One can only advance to a higher layer by following the path of a virtue and perfecting it.
The only creature to have ever reached the top layer, Chronias, and have returned, is Zaphkiel, the highest of Tome Archons. He could be said to rule, as he is at the top of the Archon hierarchy.

Also, people should really start reading up on their cosmology. Solars are not part of Celestia's hierarchy, they are Aasimon, not Archons. You can't go from Lantern to Solar.

Technically yes, but we all know what they guy meant. Lol When someone says "Sure I'd be a lemure at first, but later become a Balor" we all know that they mean Pit Fiend. They're just not versed in the mythology of the underworld, or simply didn't care about the detail cause they knew we'd get what they meant and just wanted to save time.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 02:25 PM
That and 2e The Planes of Law defined archons as a type of proxy which can and do serve gods and can be turned into Solars which are about the highest stage of proxy. So it is within the fluff for it to happen occasionally. Just because not all archons serve gods, doesn't mean all archons don't serve gods :smalltongue:

And yes Eldan I recognize that you know a lot more about Planescape fluff than I do and I respect it; I'm just stating my reason for having gone along with the solar stuff.

Marnath
2010-10-13, 09:49 PM
I'll put my vote down for astral deva. They are no where near as powerful as planetars and solars, but they don't have much of any responsibilities either. I'd have picked hound archon but I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of having a dog head. :smalleek:

Amiel
2010-10-13, 09:49 PM
Yes, but I can eventually get up to a Solar and I'll be much better off.

Even if I couldn't. I'd rather be dumb and happy than smart and being constantly tortured by the fact that everybody in the universe wants me dead.

I would much rather be a unique and individual snowflake than serving on the whims of others, especially since I have neither the individuality or authority to make challenges.


Everyone in Celestia works towards perfection and enlightenment. One can only advance to a higher layer by following the path of a virtue and perfecting it.

Yeah, Triel also believed in perfection and worked towards it. Look where it got him.


Also, people should really start reading up on their cosmology. Solars are not part of Celestia's hierarchy, they are Aasimon, not Archons. You can't go from Lantern to Solar.

What are you talking about? They can be if they choose to be, there are solars within the hierarchy and plane of Celestia.
Arithiel, Donathiel, Galgaliel, Rastiphere, Xerona; these are all solars and all are found within Mount Celestia.
And I believe it is also possible for a lantern to advance to a solar.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 09:59 PM
I would much rather be a unique and individual snowflake than serving on the whims of others, especially since I have neither the individuality or authority to make challenges.

Unlike lemures, lantern archons have their own individual thoughts and personalities. Also if we're really comparing to the original question it is simply 3rd highest in heaven or highest in hell; and that is still quite into the level of having individuality and authority to make challenges (I'd discuss more but seeing as the subject matter of Milton is real world religion not appropriate).




Yeah, Triel also believed in perfection and worked towards it. Look where it got him.

Triel forsook spiritual perfection in pursuit of beauty, though, and that is what cost him. He stopped caring to help others and just sought a perfect piece of art.




What are you talking about? They can be if they choose to be, there are solars within the hierarchy and plane of Celestia.
Arithiel, Donathiel, Galgaliel, Rastiphere, Xerona; these are all solars and all are found within Mount Celestia.
And I believe it is also possible for a lantern to advance to a solar.

Already said my part on this; in 2e archons are defined as proxies, so are solars. Proxies serve gods and the gods can reform them to higher and different forms so theoretically they could become solars. It does imply that despite being proxies the majority of archons don't serve deities but Celestia itself, but that doesn't mean they can't become solars.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 10:01 PM
I would much rather be a unique and individual snowflake than serving on the whims of others, especially since I have neither the individuality or authority to make challenges.

That's fine. You can have everybody in the universe hate you if you want. I'm going to stay up here in eternal paradise thank you.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-10-13, 10:09 PM
If you are Asmodeus, you are merely the king of fools. You have concocted the perfect pyramid scheme, whereby each tier is drowned in constant misery, and works tirelessly for you such that they might reach the next higher tier and experience a slightly lessened sense of misery.

And yet, what do you have? You are at the top of the pyramid and still miserable. You had a wife, but she was murdered by one of your own underlings as a product of the misery that you wrought upon him. You have money, power, and luxury such that no mortal could ever conceive of. And when do you enjoy it? Every minute of every day is spent orchestrating counter-espionage such that the den of fools and murderers you have created does not rise up and usurp you. You claim to be fulfilling a higher purpose in the grand scheme of the cosmos, but universally you are hated. Your friends and family are indistinguishable from your most stalwart foes. Any moment of vulnerability will be met by a knife in the back from every corner of every plane in the multiverse.

In the end, you're just a sad little cog in a big sad machine, turning and turning thanklessly because you can do nothing else. Nothing else but stew in your hate and misery, because in this machine, there is nowhere for you to go but down.

Quoted for Truth. I think it's even mentioned somewhere in one of the books that Asmodeus is not happy. I think he is actually wracked by constant pain from unhealed wounds when he fell from Heaven originally. I also think he's massively depressed. I'd rather be happy, serving in heaven.

Jallorn
2010-10-13, 10:21 PM
Must I choose? I'd rather wander the cosmos forever, eventually moving up to the next plane of existence once this one bores me.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 10:24 PM
Must I choose? I'd rather wander the cosmos forever, eventually moving up to the next plane of existence once this one bores me.

Well one big theory for what happens at the 7th Heaven is ascent to a higher existence; no one knows though. Wandering is good, though, better than anything else if you aren't LG.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 10:28 PM
Unlike lemures, lantern archons have their own individual thoughts and personalities. Also if we're really comparing to the original question it is simply 3rd highest in heaven or highest in hell; and that is still quite into the level of having individuality and authority to make challenges (I'd discuss more but seeing as the subject matter of Milton is real world religion not appropriate).

But they cannot exercise this right; even their semblance of individuality is naught but a anchor chaining them to their roles. Lemures aren't considered devils true, and are truly apart from the hierarchy of Hell; they exist as only cannon fodder and ammunition.


Triel forsook spiritual perfection in pursuit of beauty, though, and that is what cost him. He stopped caring to help others and just sought a perfect piece of art.

No, he tried to encapsulate perfection in all its forms, especially spiritual perfection. This is what caused him to instigate the Fall. In his wisdom, he knew the folly of the perfection touted by the Heavens.


Already said my part on this; in 2e archons are defined as proxies, so are solars. Proxies serve gods and the gods can reform them to higher and different forms so theoretically they could become solars. It does imply that despite being proxies the majority of archons don't serve deities but Celestia itself, but that doesn't mean they can't become solars.

Not all of them serve as actual proxies, which are designated with the denotation, Px.


That's fine. You can have everybody in the universe hate you if you want. I'm going to stay up here in eternal paradise thank you.

Hate? Asmodeus is not hated, he is feared, admired, worshipped.

chiasaur11
2010-10-13, 10:28 PM
I think some people are under either grave misconceptions on the nature of DnD hell or grave misconceptions regarding their own mental abilities.

You rule hell, every bastard in the universe is gunning for your throat, yeah?

Celestia wants out of the pacts, Mechanus is watching you close to make sure you keep your word, and all the chaotic good powers have an eye open.

And that's the least of your worries.

More relevant? Every single underling you got wants you dead. Unless you're pulling a Vetinari shuffle 25/8 your death or worse is big time payoff for half of the hells. And even if you are that good, (and we're talking the best minds very clever people can conceive of, guys who keep whole cities playing their games and lining up for more) there'll still be a lot of guys who want you dead just for having the audacity to be their better.

And it never lets up. No friends to confide in (matter of fact those high enough rank to contact you are probably the worst of the worst), nobody dealing with you for anything but their own angle, which you probably won't know since anybody who's running a game for more than five minutes in hell has a (pardon the pun) damn good thing going, nothing you can trust (look at the special abilities of various demons. Consider the espionage potential.) even your own thoughts.

And even if you're smart enough, paranoid enough, and ruthless enough to keep on top, what do you get?

You're the king of the dungheap, but guess what?

It still is a dungheap, yes?

You're the hateful, miserable, paranoid ruler of a realm without an ounce of kindness, generosity, love, or decency. You can't get good music, good art, and the whole atmosphere of hell can't take a simple joke.

Honestly, I'd rather spend eternity in agony than be the sort of person who could enjoy that mess. And if the other option is your choice of blissful rests for the best humanity (and similar) has to offer ranging from libraries to battlefields with the only catch being somewhere other than the absolute top of the heap (which, coincidentally, cuts into management duties something fierce), I think I could somehow manage to take the blow to the ego.

Honestly, I can't see the complete inability to acknowledge anyone as one's better as anything other than a crippling flaw. What a pitifully small world that would be, having no-one braver or smarter or even better looking than yourself. What a waste.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 10:29 PM
Well one big theory for what happens at the 7th Heaven is ascent to a higher existence; no one knows though. Wandering is good, though, better than anything else if you aren't LG.

Theories do abound yes, however, the defining one is that their minds and souls are merged into the layer itself, destroyed for all intents and purposes.
And this is Heaven?

Coidzor
2010-10-13, 10:33 PM
Theories do abound yes, however, the defining one is that their minds and souls are merged into the layer itself, destroyed for all intents and purposes.
And this is Heaven?

The multiverse is a crap shoot.

Seriously. Lower Planes? First thing they do is unmake your very being for kicks.

Upper Planes, let's see, getting turned into an animal, eternal frathouse, getting stuck working a a job for almost 24 hours a shift, and paradise that eventually eats you.

Sideways planes: Giant Frog. Mechanus Bot. 'nuff said.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 10:33 PM
But they cannot exercise this right; even their semblance of individuality is naught but a anchor chaining them to their roles. Lemures aren't considered devils true, and are truly apart from the hierarchy of Hell; they exist as only cannon fodder and ammunition.

Least Baatezu; lemures are considered true devils. Also lantern archons are allowed to question and find their own path as it's the only way to proceed up the mountain and to higher forms.



No, he tried to encapsulate perfection in all its forms, especially spiritual perfection. This is what caused him to instigate the Fall. In his wisdom, he knew the folly of the perfection touted by the Heavens.

Gates to Hell, 1e MMII both said it was his obsession with physical perfection that led to his fall. The only one who says otherwise is the Lord of Flies himself.



Not all of them serve as actual proxies, which are designated with the denotation, Px.

But Planes of Law does say archons above lantern archon are proxies; although at the same time it makes it clear that not all serve gods. This I will say is clear self-contradiction, but it still makes my point that there is no hard rule that they cannot become solars.


Hate? Asmodeus is not hated, he is feared, admired, worshipped.

Canon says he's hated. More than anything else he is hated. Some admire him, some fear him, and fools worship him.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 10:33 PM
*Snip*

Hey Asmodeus, how have you been?:smallwink:

Marnath
2010-10-13, 10:38 PM
The multiverse is a crap shoot.

Seriously. Lower Planes? First thing they do is unmake your very being for kicks.

Upper Planes, let's see, getting turned into an animal, eternal frathouse, getting stuck working a a job for almost 24 hours a shift, and paradise that eventually eats you.

Sideways planes: Giant Frog. Mechanus Bot. 'nuff said.

You make an excellent point, sir. :smalltongue:
*builds phylactery*
I think I'll just stay on the Prime, myself. Hide in a remote valley with just my tower and my research.

Ajadea
2010-10-13, 10:49 PM
Heaven. I'll just chill somewhere in the Beastlands or Sigil. Or something like that. I refuse to touch Arcadia, despite the fact that my alignment would probably dump me there. The idea of 'law above good' sends shivers down my spine.

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 10:52 PM
Heaven. I'll just chill somewhere in the Beastlands or Sigil. Or something like that. I refuse to touch Arcadia, despite the fact that my alignment would probably dump me there. The idea of 'law above good' sends shivers down my spine.

I'd happily serve as a lantern archon till the end of days.

But I'd rule in Hell before being part of the machine that is Arcadia.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 10:57 PM
The multiverse is a crap shoot.

Seriously. Lower Planes? First thing they do is unmake your very being for kicks.

Upper Planes, let's see, getting turned into an animal, eternal frathouse, getting stuck working a a job for almost 24 hours a shift, and paradise that eventually eats you.

Sideways planes: Giant Frog. Mechanus Bot. 'nuff said.

Unfortunately this is so D:
It makes me not want to die while playing a D&D character; all sorts of cruel and unusual torments await.


Least Baatezu; lemures are considered true devils. Also lantern archons are allowed to question and find their own path as it's the only way to proceed up the mountain and to higher forms.

Note that I said that they aren't considered devils true, not that they weren't considered devils; I elaborated by saying that their only role is one of fodder and ammunition.

But do the lantern archons question their own path, or are they merely being herded unto it?


Gates to Hell, 1e MMII both said it was his obsession with physical perfection that led to his fall. The only one who says otherwise is the Lord of Flies himself.

The weak would call it arrogance, the wise call it assurance and confidence.


But Planes of Law does say archons above lantern archon are proxies; although at the same time it makes it clear that not all serve gods. This I will say is clear self-contradiction, but it still makes my point that there is no hard rule that they cannot become solars.

Oh, I'm not debating with you that they cannot become solars, rather agreeing with you on the fact that they can.


Canon says he's hated. More than anything else he is hated. Some admire him, some fear him, and fools worship him.

Canon also says that Chronias causes the souls, minds and bodies of lawful good petitioners and angels to be devoured by the layer.
Also, the weak and ignorant label him with nasty names because they cannot comprehend his greatness.


Hey Asmodeus, how have you been?:smallwink:

I have been here, all this time.
By reading this, you have forfeited your soul to me

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 10:58 PM
I have been here, all this time.
By reading this, you have forfeited your soul to me

I can't give away what was never mine to begin with.:smallamused:


Now, if you want to have a civil conversation, I'll be killing a few of your enemies for you (Demons mostly.)

Zaydos
2010-10-13, 11:06 PM
Unfortunately this is so D:
It makes me not want to die while playing a D&D character; all sorts of cruel and unusual torments await.



Note that I said that they aren't considered devils true, not that they weren't considered devils; I elaborated by saying that their only role is one of fodder and ammunition.

But do the lantern archons question their own path, or are they merely being herded unto it?

They are allowed to choose their own; also it's only this choice that allows them to fall and to fail.



The weak would call it arrogance, the wise call it assurance and confidence.


The wise would steer clear of it entirely; the proud would call it by false names.



Oh, I'm not debating with you that they cannot become solars, rather agreeing with you on the fact that they can.



Canon also says that Chronias causes the souls, minds and bodies of lawful good petitioners and angels to be devoured by the layer.
Also, the weak and ignorant label him with nasty names because they cannot comprehend his greatness.

Actually it says that's a theory, and that the effects of being "devoured" by the layer is questionable. For one merging with the plane is sometimes thought to be transcendence to a higher level of reality; the two have never been stated to be exclusive. All that is known of Chronias for certain is that no one but the leader of the archons comes back.
And the other does nothing to say that Asmodeus isn't hated. Even if the weak hate him out of jealousy he is still hated.



I have been here, all this time.
By reading this, you have forfeited your soul to me

Asmodeus knows better than to try such tricks; the art of the soul require the pact to be made willfully and knowingly. Such little tricks just show an imitator's flaws.

Amiel
2010-10-13, 11:43 PM
I can't give away what was never mine to begin with.:smallamused:


Now, if you want to have a civil conversation, I'll be killing a few of your enemies for you (Demons mostly.)

Oh, thou werest asking how We were? We art moved by thou consideration, and willst answer forthly. We have been well, thank thee; Our engagements are many, and We have inspired the same amount.
Unlike the consideration of thee, others have sought to disparage and sully Our good name, writing that We are hated, and reviled.
We? Hated and reviled? We've always acted with kindness and concern for others, raising them when they Fell, and installing others into positions of power.
We thank thee for thy offer of service, and We would gladly take thee up on it. We hast summoned Martinet to provide thee with the paperwork, and thee only needst sign 9 lines throughout the document. This will ensure that all transactions remain proper and fair.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-13, 11:49 PM
Oh, thou werest asking how We were? We art moved by thou consideration, and willst answer forthly. We have been well, thank thee; Our engagements are many, and We have inspired the same amount.
Unlike the consideration of thee, others have sought to disparage and sully Our good name, writing that We are hated, and reviled.
We? Hated and reviled? We've always acted with kindness and concern for others, raising them when they Fell, and installing others into positions of power.
We thank thee for thy offer of service, and We would gladly take thee up on it. We hast summoned Martinet to provide thee with the paperwork, and thee only needst sign 9 lines throughout the document. This will ensure that all transactions remain proper and fair.

Really? I have to sign stuff? I can't just kill things?

Going back to the prime material plane then. See you later. Please don't destroy all that's good in the world even if you don't agree with it. Have a nice eternity!

Amiel
2010-10-13, 11:56 PM
They are allowed to choose their own; also it's only this choice that allows them to fall and to fail.

Choice in servitude, the capacity to choose actions that others have picked for you; which is really not at all different to slavery.


The wise would steer clear of it entirely; the proud would call it by false names.

The wise know that confidence assures great works, and that confidence and assurance is needed for the beneficence of the soul. The ignorant disprove of anything resembling it and in doing so, rob themselves of something that will only help them and provide them with a boon.


Actually it says that's a theory, and that the effects of being "devoured" by the layer is questionable. For one merging with the plane is sometimes thought to be transcendence to a higher level of reality; the two have never been stated to be exclusive. All that is known of Chronias for certain is that no one but the leader of the archons comes back.

However, this "transcendance" is still the obliteration of the consciousness, an act Hell would never stoop that low to enact. This is truly the servitude of Heaven, in that their greatest transcendents are rewarded not with greater wisdom, but with annihilation.


And the other does nothing to say that Asmodeus isn't hated. Even if the weak hate him out of jealousy he is still hated.

The fearful hate what they know are greater than themselves. This isn't hate, this is jealously.


Asmodeus knows better than to try such tricks; the art of the soul require the pact to be made willfully and knowingly. Such little tricks just show an imitator's flaws.[

Tricks? He read it willfully didn't he? And responded without a negatory. Such condemnation is all too representative of the wise-less servants of Heaven.


Really? I have to sign stuff? I can't just kill things?

Going back to the prime material plane then. See you later. Please don't destroy all that's good in the world even if you don't agree with it. Have a nice eternity!

We always offer true choice. However, having upon read the words, thy will is bound upon the parchment We have in Our hand. Thou cannot leave Our service. The pain of thy fleeing would cause Us pity. Now, if thou wouldst reconsider, where wouldst thee like to engage?

Hague
2010-10-14, 12:01 AM
Yeah, and aren't Lantern archons considered average array? Potentially you'd have much greater stats if you keep your array.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-14, 12:06 AM
We always offer true choice. However, having upon read the words, thy will is bound upon the parchment We have in Our hand. Thou cannot leave Our service. The pain of thy fleeing would cause Us pity. Now, if thou wouldst reconsider, where wouldst thee like to engage?

Any specific demon lords you want me to kill? Those are always fun.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-10-14, 12:08 AM
However, this "transcendance" is still the obliteration of the consciousness, an act Hell would never stoop that low to enact. This is truly the servitude of Heaven, in that their greatest transcendents are rewarded not with greater wisdom, but with annihilation.

I've got a swarm of gibbering lemures here who would like to point out the falsehood of that statement... oh, wait, they're mindless, and have had their consciousness obliterated. By Hell.

Zaydos
2010-10-14, 12:09 AM
Choice in servitude, the capacity to choose actions that others have picked for you; which is really not at all different to slavery.


Who has picked it? Every being must make their own path; the service of heaven is the service you choose.



The wise known that confidence assures great works, and that confidence and assurance is needed for the beneficence of the soul. The ignorant disprove of anything resembling it and in doing so, rob themselves of something that will only help them and provide them with a boon.

Confidence by no means assures great works. In fact too much confidence ensures failure. The wise have a saying, Everything in Moderation.



However, this "transcendance" is still the obliteration of the consciousness, an act Hell would never stoop that low to enact. This is truly the servitude of Heaven, in that their greatest transcendents are rewarded not with greater wisdom, but with annihilation.

Lemure. First thing hell does is torture your consciousness away to reshape you how they desire.



The fearful hate what they know are greater than themselves. This isn't hate, this is jealously.

Part of jealousy and why it is so bad is that it includes hatred. You even said it was hate in the first sentence to say it is not in the second. Just because they are jealous doesn't make it any less hatred.



Tricks? He read it willfully didn't he? And responded without a negatory. Such condemnation is all too representative of the wise-less servants of Heaven.

We always offer true choice. However, having upon read the words, thy will is bound upon the parchment We have in Our hand. Thou cannot leave Our service. The pain of thy fleeing would cause Us pity. Now, if thou wouldst reconsider, where wouldst thee like to engage?

Willingly and pre-informed. Asmodeus does not need to stoop to such tricks, he has better means. Only inferior fiends like Mammon would need stoop so low.

Reading your words does not make it so, no more than if I said I was the supreme being it would be so.

Amiel
2010-10-14, 12:14 AM
Any specific demon lords you want me to kill? Those are always fun.

We shalt raise thee up as Baron Kyuubi, Demonslayer. Go forth into the multiverse, general, and let loose thy forces.


I've got a swarm of gibbering lemures here who would like to point out the falsehood of that statement... oh, wait, they're mindless, and have had their consciousness obliterated. By Hell.

Hell ever works with a great clarity. Unlike Heaven, Hell does not shy away from stating that those who fail in their duties shall be met with a befitting punishment. And unlike Heaven, Hell does not crouch its words in half-truths and theories.
As a lemure, there is a possibility of working your way up the grand hierarchy of Hell. This is unlike Chronias, where your final form is one of obliteration.

Lemures are also the souls of the recently dead, the soul shells from which greater forms arise.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-10-14, 12:17 AM
To serve in Heaven is basically to reign anyway. I'd imagine the forces of good are big on servant leadership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_leadership), and even though you're serving others, the perks you get for doing so make it so it doesn't feel like a chore.

Zaydos
2010-10-14, 12:18 AM
Lemures technically arise from soul shells themselves.

And the most humorous thing about this conversation to me is that I closed recruitment and started the OOC thread for a campaign where the PCs are baatezu today. Where they have the chance to possibly become at least dukes of Hell.

Mystic Muse
2010-10-14, 12:29 AM
We shalt raise thee up as Baron Kyuubi, Demonslayer. Go forth into the multiverse, general, and let loose thy forces.

But I don't have forces. I just have me, my greatsword, my levels in a special version of Paladin that can't be taken away under any circumstances and my Pyroclastic dragon mount. She likes killing demons.

Amiel
2010-10-14, 12:32 AM
Who has picked it? Every being must make their own path; the service of heaven is the service you choose.

Their handlers; since Heaven is structured according to pre-determined hierarchies, those upon a higher position are the ones who decide what actions are fitting and what must be done.
There is no "I" in team, everyone acts in a muddled manner, only benefiting those on top.
If they truly have free choice, this is in opposition to the lawfulness of Celestia; such belong upon Arborea.


Confidence by no means assures great works. In fact too much confidence ensures failure. The wise have a saying, Everything in Moderation.

Only those who have failed in their endeavours reflect upon their works with sadness. They project their failings outwards, always externally, never questioning that it was themselves that were responsible for their deficiency, manifesting it as the adage that you just wrote.



Lemure. First thing hell does is torture your consciousness away to reshape you how they desire.

From which you are remoulded into entities of power and dominance.
Through pain, one is able to achieve great destiny.

Final thing Heaven does is obliterate your will, your form and your personality.



Part of jealousy and why it is so bad is that it includes hatred. You even said it was hate in the first sentence to say it is not in the second. Just because they are jealous doesn't make it any less hatred.

However, for the majority, jealousy and hatred are more or less separate from each other, the unknowning conflate this distinction and crouch their words in negativist overtones.


Willingly and pre-informed. Asmodeus does not need to stoop to such tricks, he has better means. Only inferior fiends like Mammon would need stoop so low.

Reading your words does not make it so, no more than if I said I was the supreme being it would be so.

Informed consent is merely an argument of semantics. The intelligent can find means of uncovering the truth. What happens to others does not speak poorly of Hell or its ways, but of the others.

Mammon would not personally do anything of the sort, his particular province and providence is avarice. And you claim foul play while phrasing your displeasure in biased tones.


Lemures technically arise from soul shells themselves.

Some people use soul shells to denote lemures; but soul shells can technically refer to any of the soul shells upon the lower planes, not just lemures.


And the most humorous thing about this conversation to me is that I closed recruitment and started the OOC thread for a campaign where the PCs are baatezu today. Where they have the chance to possibly become at least dukes of Hell.

That's actually a pretty good campaign idea.


But I don't have forces. I just have me, my greatsword, my levels in a special version of Paladin that can't be taken away under any circumstances and my Pyroclastic dragon mount. She likes killing demons.

Oh really, your greatsword is now a demon-bane greatsword; you get to keep your Paladin levels.
You also have an assembly of devils to command.

As for howst thy wouldst go about recruiting thy forces, thou art a baron, We wouldst like Our servants to think for themselves.

Mastikator
2010-10-14, 12:53 AM
I'm assuming we're talking about Mount Celestia and Baator here. So unless you're either at the very top or very bottom you both have those whom you must serve and those whom you can order around.

Neither sound very appealing, but in MC I at least would be abused by the higher ups.
In Baator if I were the ultimate ruler I'd probably be expected to do terrible things or be overthrown by my subjects.

golentan
2010-10-14, 01:30 AM
Serve in heaven.

The idea of hurting people is anathema. And you can't convince me that any form of leadership in the DnD lower planes could be maintained without brutality. Though if it came with enough power to make them less hellish I might (might) pick that.

Also, if there were an option to submit my free will I'd probably take it, for those trying to play up the "freedom yay" angle. Stealing someone's choices is terrible, but forcing them to make some choices is as well, and for a trusted cause I'd prefer to simply know what is expected of me and act in a single action than cope with some of the things I find distasteful about such matters, so long as it didn't extend into certain limits and it was ultimately based on my choice to serve.

Amiel
2010-10-14, 01:41 AM
Serve in heaven.

The idea of hurting people is anathema. And you can't convince me that any form of leadership in the DnD lower planes could be maintained without brutality. Though if it came with enough power to make them less hellish I might (might) pick that.

Angels also hurt people; this is why their attacks are primarily lethal and do not deal non-lethal damage.
The Good cleric domain also contains the blade barrier spell, that deals indiscriminately lethal slashing damage. Solars and planetars also have access to the Death, War and Destruction domains (to name but a few); domains which harbour the destruction, implosion, disintegrate et al spells.
Good is not nice, nor does it have to be nice.

golentan
2010-10-14, 01:58 AM
Angels also hurt people; this is why their attacks are primarily lethal and do not deal non-lethal damage.
The Good cleric domain also contains the blade barrier spell, that deals indiscriminately lethal slashing damage. Solars and planetars also have access to the Death, War and Destruction domains (to name but a few); domains which harbour the destruction, implosion, disintegrate et al spells.
Good is not nice, nor does it have to be nice.

Good is not nice, but it saves the pain for a last resort. Which is something I have and can deal with. Destruction is not death, and death is not suffering, and even the intolerable must occasionally be done because it is necessary.

I've ended people before, I could do it again, if it were for the right reasons.

I certainly don't see such reasons or any possibility of such restraint from the other side.

Amiel
2010-10-14, 02:10 AM
Good is not nice, but it saves the pain for a last resort. Which is something I have and can deal with. Destruction is not death, and death is not suffering

Paladins are also good, yet they utilise the force of hurt to avenge wrongdoings and smite evil. All of this would create pain and possibly even suffering.
If the mortal representatives of good resort to such actions, then surely the "perfected servants" of good would have advised them of doing so, preaching it and participating.

I wasn't talking about pain, and neither were you initially. We were discussing hurt, which may or may not lead to pain; and yet, while you can deal with the idea of fostering pain upon others, hurt is anathema to you; pain is more severe than hurt.
What do you mean destruction is not death? "This spell instantly slays the subject and consumes its remains (but not its equipment and possessions) utterly" (SRD).
The destruction of others also causes immense pain and suffering (c.f real life examples).


I've ended people before, I could do it again, if it were for the right reasons. And even the intolerable must occasionally be done because it is necessary.

Then your anathema to the idea of hurting people is false.


I certainly don't see such reasons or any possibility of such restraint from the other side.

The other side does not impose restrictions which it will needlessly break.

golentan
2010-10-14, 02:34 AM
You literally have no idea what you are saying about me, and so I'll let those comments pass.

I used pain as a synonym for hurt, and would never "foster" it on others save to prevent the results of their choice to harm innocents when other options were not available.

I didn't mean the spell specifically. Destruction (the concept of unmaking) is different from death in that some forms of destruction don't result in death and may be helpful to others or as a method for separate goals. And some forms of destruction are more severe than death and hideous to countenance. You cure cancer by destruction of a tumor, you begin a renovation with destruction of the existing structures, and education destroys ignorance. Planned destruction can facilitate growth or healing, and though it can risk the fallacy of the broken window that doesn't mean it automatically falls to it.

Simplifying a nuanced view to absurdity and calling it hypocrisy is rarely accurate, and lack of hypocrisy (real or imagined) certainly doesn't excuse atrocities. The point is to maintain the spirit of the idea, and not to "needlessly" break the restrictions.

Amiel
2010-10-14, 02:55 AM
You literally have no idea what you are saying about me, and so I'll let those comments pass.

No, but I am basing my responses to your comments. Especially these; "the idea of hurting people is anathema" "Good[...]saves the pain for a last resort. Which is something I have and can deal with" and finally "I've ended people before, I could do it again, if it were for the right reasons."

You've essentially contradicted yourself in those statements.


I used pain as a synonym for hurt, and would never "foster" it on others save to prevent the results of their choice to harm innocents when other options were not available.

But pain and hurt are distinctly different. Hurt may or may not arise from pain, nor might it lead to pain. Pain, where it does stem from hurt, is a more severe form of hurt, which can lead to agony and suffering. Hurt, however, does not necessarily conclude in agony and suffering.

You claim that hurt to others/hurting others is anathema to you, yet you also say that you will approve applying it to "prevent the results of their choice to harm innocents." Long and hard is the road to Hell that is paved with good intentions, and longest and hardest is the fall to Hell of those whose acts are a mirror of their intentions.


I didn't mean the spell specifically. Destruction (the concept of unmaking) is different from death in that some forms of destruction don't result in death and may be helpful to others or as a method for separate goals. And some forms of destruction are more severe than death and hideous to countenance. You cure cancer by destruction of a tumor, you begin a renovation with destruction of the existing structures, and education destroys ignorance. Planned destruction can facilitate growth or healing, and though it can risk the fallacy of the broken window that doesn't mean it automatically falls to it.

If by that definition, then you should not use absolutist, blanket statements; for there is destruction of peoples (genocide), destruction of buildings (via bombs and explosives), self-destruction, destruction that leads to damage (both willful and accident and incidental) et al. Otherwise it's a fallacy statement.

People rarely crouch beneficial "destruction" within phrasing like that; they only rarely use destruction to denote the end of something.


Simplifying a nuanced view to absurdity and calling it hypocrisy is rarely accurate, and lack of hypocrisy (real or imagined) certainly doesn't excuse atrocities. The point is to maintain the spirit of the idea, and not to "needlessly" break the restrictions.

But you are still going against the grain of your ideal.

golentan
2010-10-14, 12:00 PM
It's not a contradiction. Anathema means "hated, loathed and damned." Which is true. It's a statement that there are even worse things for which I am willing to do things I wish weren't necessary and which I still find distasteful to prevent.

Psyren
2010-10-14, 12:15 PM
Alcohol = poison = wrongbad. :smalltongue:

Call it a ravage and get hammered. :smallbiggrin:
"Thanksh BoED!"

Eldan
2010-10-14, 12:44 PM
If it was a ravage, only evil people could get drunk. :smalltongue:

Or would only evil people get hangovers? That I could live with. Seems like a Celestian thing to do.

Shademan
2010-10-14, 12:44 PM
reign in hell. no dice

Raimun
2010-10-14, 02:34 PM
This is certainly... an interesting thread. It even gave me a few good laughs. Witnessing delusions of grandeur is always a blast.

And yes, heaven's cooler. :smallamused: Literally.

Eldan
2010-10-14, 02:35 PM
Hell's definitely cooler.
All of Heaven's layer are basically temperate.
Hell has one fiery layer and two frozen ones.

Alleine
2010-10-14, 03:15 PM
I wouldn't mind ruling in Hell as long as it's in Avernus. Sure it's a constant war, but that is waaay better than the stuff the other lords of Hell have to deal with. FC2 says that Bel is pretty much left out of all the schemes and plots because 1) He's too busy keeping the Abyss at bay and 2) If he went down the other lords would have to 'stoop' down and actually engage in the Blood War.

Sure you still have to watch out for your subordinates, but that's much easier than fending off the other lords. And if you're anything like Bel, you already know all the tricks since you did it to the old boss. :smallbiggrin:


I don't even know enough about Celestia to comment though. The fiendish codices were more interesting than then Planes books.


I find it amusing that people are assuming Asmodeus(or indeed, ANY of the lords of the nine) have the same mindset as most humans. If they were all poor, tired souls weary of the constant stress and strain of hell and the constant torture, I doubt any of them would be actively seeking to keep the position they're in. Granted, being Asmodeus is not something most people would want, but that's probably because you aren't Asmodeus. He probably likes being himself despite all of the supposed 'woe and pain' everyone thinks he's in.

randomhero00
2010-10-14, 05:40 PM
Hey this spawned a pretty cool discussion.

The question is open to interpretation purposefully. But personally the reigning in hell bit, I was thinking god level, not pit fiend. So you wouldn't have to worry much about someone backstabbing you to take your throne. It'd be quite difficult even if you weren't paying attention. Also, again, just personally, but serving in heaven I took to mean as a low peon, and *servant* not just do whatever in sigil or something. But that's just me and why I'd choose to rule Hell. Any hurting I'd be doing down there would be to evil souls anyways.

Morithias
2010-10-14, 05:41 PM
Question

Has anyone tried the math answer? It says "Would" you rather.

So what happens if we just say "No".

Saph
2010-10-14, 05:44 PM
The question is open to interpretation purposefully. But personally the reigning in hell bit, I was thinking god level, not pit fiend. So you wouldn't have to worry much about someone backstabbing you to take your throne. It'd be quite difficult even if you weren't paying attention.

Slight problem with your reasoning there: there already IS a god-level pit fiend ruling Hell. He's called Asmodeus. So if you want to rule in hell, you've got to knock him off his throne first. Good luck with that. :smallamused:

Zaydos
2010-10-14, 05:54 PM
Slight problem with your reasoning there: there already IS a god-level pit fiend ruling Hell. He's called Asmodeus. So if you want to rule in hell, you've got to knock him off his throne first. Good luck with that. :smallamused:

And even then he still has to constantly watch his back for betrayal and never drop his guard, because there are 8 other almost god-level entities trying to take his place (kind of like the character who said it is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven in the first place).

randomhero00
2010-10-14, 06:05 PM
Well ya, its automatically assumed he'd be knocked off his throne, or you'd become him with your personality. Goes without saying:smallbiggrin:

Saph
2010-10-14, 06:14 PM
Well ya, its automatically assumed he'd be knocked off his throne, or you'd become him with your personality. Goes without saying:smallbiggrin:

Heh. So one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, who's spent his entire immortal existence seeking even more power and maintaining his grasp on the rulership of Hell, is going to hand his domain over to some random schlub.

The point I'm getting at is that it goes completely against the nature of Hell to be given the job of ruler. The only way to get power in Hell is to be bad enough and mean enough to take it off whoever's got it, then hold it against the next challenger. You don't get it gift-wrapped.

randomhero00
2010-10-14, 06:29 PM
Saph its a saying for a theoretical discussion. Plus THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! (I never get sick of saying that)

Let's say you BECOME old Asmody then.

Zaydos
2010-10-14, 06:32 PM
Saph its a saying for a theoretical discussion. Plus THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! (I never get sick of saying that)

Let's say you BECOME old Asmody then.

You still have to deal with the constant fear of backstabbing; also I thought that was the assumption throughout most of the thread.

But yeah since many of the responses were: "I'd rather be a solar for sure, or failing that a lantern archon" or else "I'd love to be Asmodeus" I think the assumption this whole discussion has followed for the most part is lowest in heaven or highest in hell (as opposed to the reference which was actually 3rd highest in heaven or highest in hell).

Eldan
2010-10-14, 06:33 PM
Third Highest in heaven... I don't remember would that be sealtiel? Earathol? One of those. They never got much flavour anyway.

randomhero00
2010-10-14, 06:34 PM
Zaydos- I saw several people assuming you'd just be a pit fiend, or be able to work your way all the way up through heaven or not have to actually serve. That's what I was referring to. But ya, most were surprisingly on track.

heh, see what I mean, Eldan just picked 3rd highest in heaven.

Saph
2010-10-14, 06:37 PM
Saph its a saying for a theoretical discussion. Plus THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! (I never get sick of saying that)

I get that it's theoretical, I just think it's self contradictory. How can you be given a power that by definition can only be taken?

It's like being given an Olympic medal. Sure, you can take the lump of metal, but being given a win? How does that even work?

randomhero00
2010-10-14, 06:39 PM
I get that it's theoretical, I just think it's self contradictory. How can you be given a power that by definition can only be taken?

It's like being given an Olympic medal. Sure, you can take the lump of metal, but being given a win? How does that even work?

The same way a DM can give you whatever he or she wants in a game? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

Zaydos
2010-10-14, 06:41 PM
Funny thing, in neither 2e or 3.5 did Asmodeus have to work to gain his position; it was given to him. He has had to work to keep it, though.

Marnath
2010-10-14, 06:58 PM
I get that it's theoretical, I just think it's self contradictory. How can you be given a power that by definition can only be taken?

It's like being given an Olympic medal. Sure, you can take the lump of metal, but being given a win? How does that even work?

I don't get why you're so hung up on that. :smallsigh: For the purposes of this theoretical question you are top dog in hell, not Asmodeus. The assumption is that you are doing his job. Not taking it from him, you just ARE him.

HandofCrom
2010-10-14, 06:59 PM
3.5
I'd revel in Ysgard.
PF
Probably take it easy on the spire, or be fed to Groteus.

Saph
2010-10-14, 07:01 PM
I don't get why you're so hung up on that. :smallsigh: For the purposes of this theoretical question you are top dog in hell, not Asmodeus. The assumption is that you are doing his job. Not taking it from him, you just ARE him.

That would mean that you get his personality too, which means you stop being yourself anymore. :smalltongue:

I think the question's much more entertaining if you treat it as an in-game offer. "Sure, you can reign in Hell. Asmodeus? Oh, don't worry about him, you'll be the only guy who matters. All you have to do is sign here . . ."

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 07:05 PM
Even celestial dogs serve in heaven. I prefer reign in hell!! It's not because of that i'm evil person but you have to be better -in every meaning- to reign in helll. Every act that you've done must be well-prepared.

Marnath
2010-10-14, 07:09 PM
That would mean that you get his personality too, which means you stop being yourself anymore. :smalltongue:

No it doesn't.


Some good points in the 2nd paragraph. But I disagree with the 1st. With this assumption you *are* reigning in hell. You are de facto leader.

Says "You." Not "Asmodeus."

Dark_Juggernaut
2010-10-14, 09:16 PM
Ok, this question could use some perspective. How about this: You're NOT Asmodeus, you're his boss. You're weak pathetic little you but no one can lift a finger against you in hell, EVER. Your throne is secure until you decide otherwise. Everyone in hell has to do what you say, and that's where you have to live...in hell. "You" RULE, but in HELL.

OR

You're weak pathetic you, doing whatever you can do, and you get bossed around in HEAVEN. It's heaven but you're not a visitor/vacationer, you're an employee. This assumes heaven is a great employer, and it's a very comfortable life otherwise.

The only references to actually BEING the creatures in heaven or hell applies when you keep your personality. Only a person who is/or would rather be a Lawful Evil person could truly say they want to be the Ruling Devil in hell. Likewise only a person who is or would rather be a Lawful Good person could truly BECOME that random servant of heaven.

The chaotic alignment's organizational status is that of convenience only. Ruling a pack of demons wouldn't last very long without some seriously aligned goals. The chaotic good angels aren't about to bark orders at you for an eternity either, they value freedom to much.

Edit: To answer the question, I'd rather serve in Heaven.

chiasaur11
2010-10-14, 09:16 PM
Even celestial dogs serve in heaven. I prefer reign in hell!! It's not because of that i'm evil person but you have to be better -in every meaning- to reign in helll. Every act that you've done must be well-prepared.

Every?

Can think of some rather important areas where the job demands worse. Ethics, at minimum.

And, hypothetically of course, someone serving in heaven could push themselves to their equally impressive limits. Just that failing won't lead to eternal torture by implacable enemies and success will net something other than another day of the same agony.

Psyren
2010-10-14, 09:39 PM
No it doesn't.

Says "You." Not "Asmodeus."

I find it rather implausible that anyone without Asmodeus' exact mindset could rule The Nine for any length of time without being ousted, vanquished or the whole plane's hierarchy imploding.

Amiel
2010-10-15, 01:38 AM
It's not a contradiction. Anathema means "hated, loathed and damned." Which is true. It's a statement that there are even worse things for which I am willing to do things I wish weren't necessary and which I still find distasteful to prevent.

Actually, it pretty much is the very definition of a contradiction, as contradiction also means inconsistency and discrepancy, there is an opposition between conflicting ideas; that you would think it anathema (a vehement denunciation and abomination) yet you would also engage in the act.


I wouldn't mind ruling in Hell as long as it's in Avernus. Sure it's a constant war, but that is waaay better than the stuff the other lords of Hell have to deal with. FC2 says that Bel is pretty much left out of all the schemes and plots because 1) He's too busy keeping the Abyss at bay and 2) If he went down the other lords would have to 'stoop' down and actually engage in the Blood War.

The chesspieces are in play, all according to Asmodeus' plan.

Bel is kept out of the politics of Hell, as his attention is focused solely on the shoring up of the defenses of Avernus and prosecuting the Blood War.


Slight problem with your reasoning there: there already IS a god-level pit fiend ruling Hell. He's called Asmodeus. So if you want to rule in hell, you've got to knock him off his throne first. Good luck with that. :smallamused:

Or you already are Asmodeus :)


No, Asmodeus, you are the demons
And then Asmodeus was a zombie.


Funny thing, in neither 2e or 3.5 did Asmodeus have to work to gain his position; it was given to him. He has had to work to keep it, though.

Asmodeus' intelligence is such that he was able to and is still able to effortlessly play all opposition as the chumps they are. Only he may reign supreme within the confines of Perdition.


Every?

Can think of some rather important areas where the job demands worse. Ethics, at minimum.
However, ethics are mere props, only existing to allow others to think they are better than someone else.



Heaven is for chumps and idealists who should know better. Heaven does not understand power, and in its ignorance and fear deigns to squash it, not to nurture or nourish it.

The devils do away with the fallacy of 'for one's own beneficence in servitude' by offering a simple truth, to rule is to rule. Power is yours by right.
The enlightenment proffered by Celestia is yet more lies to entice others to meekly submit to those "who know better".

Perdition is where the wheels of ambition and power are well-oiled. More importantly, no small amount of patsy's exist within Perdition to manipulate and drive ever-forthwith. To reign in Hell is the divine will, and My Will Be Done.

chiasaur11
2010-10-15, 01:55 AM
Heaven is for chumps and idealists who should know better. Heaven does not understand power, and in its ignorance and fear deigns to squash it, not to nurture or nourish it.

The devils do away with the fallacy of 'for one's own beneficence in servitude' by offering a simple truth, to rule is to rule. Power is yours by right.
The enlightenment proffered by Celestia is yet more lies to entice others to meekly submit to those "who know better".

Perdition is where the wheels of ambition and power are well-oiled. More importantly, no small amount of patsy's exist within Perdition to manipulate and drive ever-forthwith. To reign in Hell is the divine will, and My Will Be Done.

Wow.

I got a better speech on how morality was for chumps from an episode of gorram Care Bears.

Guess a commendation is in order for the most cliched "No, evil is awesome. Totes." speech I've seen in some time.

So, uh, bravo?

('sides. In these scenarios, always best to be surrounded by chumps. Less likely to find your power theirs by right.)

Amiel
2010-10-15, 06:04 AM
Wow.

I got a better speech on how morality was for chumps from an episode of gorram Care Bears.

The impressionable and the simple are overawed by simple banality; it is, however, good that Perdition is able to utilise the common media to proliferate its concerns.


Guess a commendation is in order for the most cliched "No, evil is awesome. Totes." speech I've seen in some time.

So, uh, bravo?

To cement my congratulations, just sign away on this document; here, here and there.
Your soul is now a collectors item



('sides. In these scenarios, always best to be surrounded by chumps. Less likely to find your power theirs by right.)

Indeed.

TheGeckoKing
2010-10-15, 07:59 AM
Forget all this garbage. I'd get Lichdom, or take the Wedded to History feat, and make/aquire an artifact that can let me cast Plane Shift at will. Then, I can just pick and choose and stuff :smallbiggrin:
But, if I HAD to pick, I'd serve in Heaven, as a Solar. I'm not being funny, but you'd have to be a SERIOUS machochist to like being Asmodeus.

Somebloke
2010-10-15, 08:03 AM
Heaven. I really can't be arsed to watch my back 24/7 and complicated counter-plots on my minions take up to much time.

Amiel
2010-10-15, 09:46 AM
Forget all this garbage. I'd get Lichdom, or take the Wedded to History feat, and make/aquire an artifact that can let me cast Plane Shift at will. Then, I can just pick and choose and stuff :smallbiggrin:

It is relatively easy to unmake the undead; there exist items and salient abilities that allow third-parties to force undead into submission and subservience, subjugate their sapience, or purge them from existence.


But, if I HAD to pick, I'd serve in Heaven, as a Solar. I'm not being funny, but you'd have to be a SERIOUS machochist to like being Asmodeus.

Except for that fact that nothing in existence has thus far proven to be a challenge to Asmodeus. He is playing everything in the multiverse against each other and only he is reaping the rewards.

When he had yet to ascend to the throne of divinity, he managed to trick the gods into giving him control over an entire plane of existence and defining Lawful Evil as he saw fit; formulating an iron-clad contract that bound their consent into chains that brooked no deviance from the initial agreement.
The gods are powerless to stop him and can only despair as their works are corrupted, their servants lured away to prostrate before greatness, someone with real power.

No one in Hell plane has proven capable of being his opponent, not even remotely.

He is always 9 moves ahead, and always has 9 contingency plans and fail-safes.

Mordokai
2010-10-15, 09:57 AM
Why are you so hell bent (again with the lousy puns, ugh) on proving other people wrong? Can't you just accept they don't agree with you and your opinion and accept it? And that some people actually have different priorities than you do? Really, you're coming down as downright offensive.

Amiel
2010-10-15, 10:01 AM
If it's really bothering you, then by all means feel free to ignore the thread. You're very negative about things.
I thought we were having a discussion in a roleplaying forum, and I thought it equally fitting that someone should play the Devil's Advocate (emphasis on both words and combined) since we are discussing on whether it is better to reign in hell or serve in heaven; I am actually using canon sources to prove my points, if you find anything offensive, you should find canon offensive.

Zaydos
2010-10-15, 10:06 AM
I will point out that the story of Asmodeus playing all the gods and defining Lawful Evil is presented as merely a story that is quite probably Asmodeus's propaganda even in canon, so it is not the best at proving your point (as it boils down to "Asmodeus claims he's awesome").

Personally I realized you were playing Devil's Advocate long ago, that's what has made this thread so fun/interesting.

tbarrie
2010-10-15, 10:37 AM
I get that it's theoretical, I just think it's self contradictory. How can you be given a power that by definition can only be taken?

It's like being given an Olympic medal. Sure, you can take the lump of metal, but being given a win? How does that even work?

GM at the start of a new campaign: "Okay, your characters will all be former Olympic medalists...". Done.

Marnath
2010-10-15, 10:42 AM
It is relatively easy to unmake the undead; there exist items and salient abilities that allow third-parties to force undead into submission and subservience, subjugate their sapience, or purge them from existence.

Not a threat to asmodeus, but if we're comparing to a Lich's power level, may I mention Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm). Anything pit fiend or weaker is susceptible.

Eldonauran
2010-10-15, 06:30 PM
My choice would be to serve in heaven.

Ruling in hell isn't even a choice for me. I couldn't bring myself to rule over something that is a source of such great pain, suffering, torture or evil. Leave that to the demented, evil beings that wish it. I'll be over here, in heaven, polishing those shiny swords that will end your evil reign.

Tyrant
2010-10-15, 11:41 PM
If we're talking the you=Asmodeus scenario (his power and knowledge, your will and personality is my assumption on how this would work), I would choose to rule in Hell. I would much rather be a god than a servant. Sure, there are some downsides (I guess). But what doesn't have downsides? I look at it the same way I do when I hear very wealthy people complaining about how rough they have it. I think I could live with their problems if I had their money. I could live with the downsides of ruiling Hell if I were a god. It's not like you can't leave and have to stay there 24/7. I also have to believe with control of the plane and divinity that you can make some changes if you really feel like it. Don't like your PR on the Prime Material? Direct your clerics to make changes to your church. It will take time to change your image, but it can be done.

As a side question, because I am not thoroughly versed in the ins and outs of the afterlife in D&D, what happens to the souls of the followers of his church now that he is a god and they aren't just devil worshippers anymore? Is Hell considered his home plane and they go there, or do they go there automatically for being evil, or is it some third option? Does he have any control over this?

Eldan
2010-10-16, 06:06 AM
Well, first of all, all the places you can leave to are also lower planes, which are often even worse than hell.

And, by the nature of the planes, changing your image on the prime changes you right back. Not necessarily what you want.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 11:12 AM
Also even when Asmodeus is a god he has a special caveat that he doesn't get the souls/power of worshipers, but draw upon that of Lawful Evil. The way to change your image is to have your cult not be Lawful Evil. If your cult is not Lawful Evil you lose all your power.

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 11:16 AM
IIRC, Asmodeus's petitioners would default to his personal realm of Perdition if he decided to extend his mantle to them.


And, by the nature of the planes, changing your image on the prime changes you right back. Not necessarily what you want.

Which does put The Burning Hate in the awkward place he's in right now, actually.

TheGeckoKing
2010-10-16, 11:53 AM
It is relatively easy to unmake the undead; there exist items and salient abilities that allow third-parties to force undead into submission and subservience, subjugate their sapience, or purge them from existence.

And that's what PAO cast twice into an Aboleth is for. Immortality, AND i'm freaky fishy!

Starbuck_II
2010-10-16, 12:26 PM
I'd take a third option:
Reign in heaven.

Tyrant
2010-10-16, 02:06 PM
Well, first of all, all the places you can leave to are also lower planes, which are often even worse than hell.
I was going off the FR novels, where there are at least 3 occasions that I know of where Mephastopholes goes to the Prime Material, at least 2 of which were his own doing. It seemed logical to me that Asmodeus, being more powerful and divine, should also be able to do this. I assumed being a greater deity allowed him some perks. If it doesn't, honestly that's just stupid and it was pointless making him a god.

And, by the nature of the planes, changing your image on the prime changes you right back. Not necessarily what you want.
I was thinking along the lines of the way the Blood of Vol seems to be set up. You have the public face, which isn't necessarily evil, and you have the real power behind the cult with it's true agenda that remains hidden to the world at large.

Also even when Asmodeus is a god he has a special caveat that he doesn't get the souls/power of worshipers, but draw upon that of Lawful Evil. The way to change your image is to have your cult not be Lawful Evil. If your cult is not Lawful Evil you lose all your power.
Why? That set up makes no sense. Is there a reason why he couldn't have both?

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 02:08 PM
I was thinking along the lines of the way the Blood of Vol seems to be set up. You have the public face, which isn't necessarily evil, and you have the real power behind the cult with it's true agenda that remains hidden to the world at large.

I believe that is how many devil/demon proxy cults are set up. I believe this is an especially famous example (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate).

Eldan
2010-10-16, 02:09 PM
Well, that seems to be a novel author ignoring canon, then. Fiends can't leave the lower planes unless summoned.

Also, as I said: if you, as an outer planar entity, set up a public "nice face" and people believe it, you will become that façade. If people believe you to be basically not all that bad, you are basically not all that bad.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 02:10 PM
Well, that seems to be a novel author ignoring canon, then. Fiends can't leave the lower planes unless summoned.

Also, as I said: if you, as an outer planar entity, set up a public "nice face" and people believe it, you will become that façade. If people believe you to be basically not all that bad, you are basically not all that bad.

Unless like with the blood of vol, where the majority of your worshipers are hidden cultists who think you're evil. then you'd have a greater balance to evil, and stay that way.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 02:14 PM
Why? That set up makes no sense. Is there a reason why he couldn't have both?

There's two reasons that have been listed; depending upon if he's an actual deity or just an archfiend.

If he's an actual deity it's because the other gods would kill him if the knew it and he's not powerful enough. Really even when a Greater Deity he actually ends up functioning by a separate set of rules entirely (can't leave the plane, is intrinsically linked with the plane, doesn't die without worshipers, but doesn't gain any power from them, is capable of being killed by deities).

If he's just an archfiend it's because he's not a god and doesn't gain power from worshipers, he gains it from his connection the the 9 Hells and LE souls. This is the last 3.5 canon and I'm not familiar with what 4e did to him but it seems to have made him just any other evil god fully affected by changing worshiper beliefs.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 02:16 PM
Unless like with the blood of vol, where the majority of your worshipers are hidden cultists who think you're evil. then you'd have a greater balance to evil, and stay that way.

Not quite as Eberron functions on completely different rules for such entities than the Planescape/generic D&D ones. Also Asmodeus can't get souls from worshipers he gets them from people just being LE (as an additional note Mephistopholes is noted multiple times [in 2e] as actually getting the souls from cults of "Asmodeus" as Asmodeus doesn't bother to set up his own).

Cogidubnus
2010-10-16, 02:44 PM
I wouldn't last ten minutes as Asmodeus xD I wouldn't be able to keep all my underlings at other throats than mine.

And the phrase comes from Lucifer's line in Paradise Lost, in which context it is a matter of being at least a Solar. Possibly one who could tango with most gods except overdeities.

Flarp
2010-10-16, 04:27 PM
As opposed to only taking into account Celestia and Baator, I'll take into account all planes. We need to assume some things, though.


The Great Wheel is more of a Square - Baator, Hades, the Abyss, etc, are all equally evil. Pandemonium, Ysgard, and Arborea are all equally chaotic.
The closer you are to the Upper Planes, the less authority you have. Being in Celestial means you're essentially a lantern archon, while being in the Abyss means you're a balor, likely under a prince.
This actually infers you have become an outsider, and aren't just a fresh soul from the PMP.


With this in mind, I would choose either the Beastlands, Arborea, or Mechanus.

Beastlands is closer to my alignment, and becoming an animal and eventually a guardinal could be an interesting way to spent eternity. My second choice.

Arborea sounds fun because it's the archetypical Mysterious Forest™, with literally infinite places to explore and sites to see. My first choice.

Mechanus is incredibly far from my alignment, but having access to all the knowledge ever accumulated, ever, sounds incredible. I am unsure if I would want to spend eternity there, though. My third choice.

As for the worst possible ones...

Arcadia's premise has always seemed terrifying to me. It feels like one big, infinite uncanny valley. I realize in implementation it wouldn't be, but still. Everything is perfect, even things that would never ever be perfect in normality.

Acheron sounds pretty awful. You fight for eternity in wars that have no point, experiencing every sensation that makes you hate combat, and never any of the glory from a successful battle. Forever.

Baator, purely because, upon entering, the very concept of your existence is broken down into its base elements in a nightmare crucible of hate and rage, purely because the devil underlings that preform this atrocity get a buzz from the screams of agony as your soul is obliterated. As a leader, which you would be, you go through this process EVERY time you mess up.

Eldan
2010-10-16, 04:37 PM
The premise of Arcadia is just silly. Study trees for a while, at how they are made up, how they grow, how they work and you notice that they are far more perfect than one would be if it had a square trunk and grew in neat rows.

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 04:54 PM
The premise of Arcadia is just silly. Study trees for a while, at how they are made up, how they grow, how they work and you notice that they are far more perfect than one would be if it had a square trunk and grew in neat rows.

I must agree with you completely, trees are wondrously fascinating and intricately designed organisms. But square trunks... no, that's so inefficient, so heavily flawed. I apparently had blocked that part out.

Tyrant
2010-10-16, 08:38 PM
Well, that seems to be a novel author ignoring canon, then. Fiends can't leave the lower planes unless summoned.
Except Asmodeus is a greater deity now, not just a fiend (or not a fiend at all). Gods don't have to be summoned.

As for Mephistopheles and the novels in question, it's the Erevis Cale series by Paul Kemp. One of the characters is a devil spawn posing as a tiefling. His father is Mephistopheles. In the second trilogy, Mephistopheles takes an active interest in affairs and kills one man to take his place so he can set events into motion. He also sleeps with the guy's wife. He was not summoned. At another point, Brennus (one of the Shade Princes) summons a devil and Mephistopheles enters instead (again, to move along his own plot). All of these events tie into the Shade take over of Sembia and the raising of Sakkors (another floating enclave) which are all in the 4th Ed. FRCS book. The trilogy also features the death of Mask, also supported. It also has Rivalen Tanthul (one of the other Princes of Shade) absorbing a portion of divinity from a being who formerly served Mask. This supports his write up in the FRCS where is said to be as powerful as the exarchs of other gods, despite not actually being an exarch. There is also suppsoed to be another trilogy set in the current (4th) time frame that follows this plot. To me, that implies that the folks in charge of maintaining canon had no problem with it because every other idea in the book is maintained in the 4th Ed. material.

There's two reasons that have been listed; depending upon if he's an actual deity or just an archfiend.

If he's an actual deity it's because the other gods would kill him if the knew it and he's not powerful enough. Really even when a Greater Deity he actually ends up functioning by a separate set of rules entirely (can't leave the plane, is intrinsically linked with the plane, doesn't die without worshipers, but doesn't gain any power from them, is capable of being killed by deities).
If he's a greater deity, how is he not powerful enough? The other gods have other enemies, yet they don't seem to kill them at will. Why would Asmodeus be an exception? Using the FR as a for instance, I'm sure just abut every god wants Cyric dead, yet he lives. Or Shar, or Bane, etc. You also haven't answered why he opporates under different rules. Is there any logical reason?

If he's just an archfiend it's because he's not a god and doesn't gain power from worshipers, he gains it from his connection the the 9 Hells and LE souls. This is the last 3.5 canon and I'm not familiar with what 4e did to him but it seems to have made him just any other evil god fully affected by changing worshiper beliefs.
He's listed as a greater deity and at least in the 4th ed. material I have read I see no special restrictions placed on him. Maybe I missed them or I haven't read the right sourcebook (entirely possible), but I can't think of any logical reason why he would be at a disadvantage when he is a greater deity with the power to throw the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos (seemingly ending the Blood War, or at least putting it on terms he finds more reasonable).

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 08:53 PM
Before 4e Asmodeus was only considered a deity in one 2e sourcebook (Gates to Hell) where he was the injured form of half of an overdeity. In it he was presented as being a Greater Power in his statblock but it also said that he feared to show his true power to the gods for they would destroy him, and that he could not get powers from worshipers and in fact his worshipers actually worshiped Mephistopholes and went to him. Which made him have completely different rules than other deities and why they listed him as one is beyond me.

Everything else pre-4e says he's simply a powerful arch-devil well beneath the gods who only gets Lawful Evil souls regardless of who they worship.

Tyrant
2010-10-16, 09:34 PM
Before 4e Asmodeus was only considered a deity in one 2e sourcebook (Gates to Hell) where he was the injured form of half of an overdeity. In it he was presented as being a Greater Power in his statblock but it also said that he feared to show his true power to the gods for they would destroy him, and that he could not get powers from worshipers and in fact his worshipers actually worshiped Mephistopholes and went to him. Which made him have completely different rules than other deities and why they listed him as one is beyond me.

Everything else pre-4e says he's simply a powerful arch-devil well beneath the gods who only gets Lawful Evil souls regardless of who they worship.
I see. Thanks for elaborating. It sounds like quite a bit has changed (or at least I assume it has because they don't mention those limitations in the current edition, from what I have read anyway).

As a side note, every LE soul? Even if someone like Fzoul Chembryl died (which he did) they would go to Asmodeus and not Bane? Or am I misunderstanding?

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 09:39 PM
I see. Thanks for elaborating. It sounds like quite a bit has changed (or at least I assume it has because they don't mention those limitations in the current edition, from what I have read anyway).

As a side note, every LE soul? Even if someone like Fzoul Chembryl died (which he did) they would go to Asmodeus and not Bane? Or am I misunderstanding?

It's specifically lawful-evil souls who didn't worship a deity in life.

Tvtyrant
2010-10-16, 09:40 PM
I see. Thanks for elaborating. It sounds like quite a bit has changed (or at least I assume it has because they don't mention those limitations in the current edition, from what I have read anyway).

As a side note, every LE soul? Even if someone like Fzoul Chembryl died (which he did) they would go to Asmodeus and not Bane? Or am I misunderstanding?

It depends by what they mean by "every." Dragons are recreated to be afterlife dragon-spirits (under Tiamat) and I know Aberrations don't go to hell when they die; I believe that hell is mostly for Lawful Evil humans and none-deity related humanoids. Chaotic evils go on to become Manes in the abyss, and I recall that a lot of evil races go to their racial deity when they die.

So... Lawful evil but not particular religious sounds about right.

megabyter5
2010-10-16, 09:42 PM
Definitely the latter. Mostly because the former has an expected duration of no more than eleven minutes, but also because it would be awesome to be a lantern archon.

Now that I've said that, let me say something about the various "afterlives" of the Great Wheel. It is explicitly stated that most normal people are true neutral. As for myself, I was Neutral Good for a while before general misanthropy set in and I firmly planted my self at Apathetic Neutral.

So, this puts the majority of people in the Neutral plane for their afterlife, the Outlands. In the DMG, special detail is given to the effect the spire has on magic and other abilities. Beyond that, it is implied that there is nothing in the Outlands. At all. Forever.

Is this the DMG's way of telling me to "Pick a side, we're at war"? :smalltongue:

Zaydos
2010-10-16, 09:46 PM
Definitely the latter. Mostly because the former has an expected duration of no more than eleven minutes, but also because it would be awesome to be a lantern archon.

Now that I've said that, let me say something about the various "afterlives" of the Great Wheel. It is explicitly stated that most normal people are true neutral. As for myself, I was Neutral Good for a while before general misanthropy set in and I firmly planted my self at Apathetic Neutral.

So, this puts the majority of people in the Neutral plane for their afterlife, the Outlands. In the DMG, special detail is given to the effect the spire has on magic and other abilities. Beyond that, it is implied that there is nothing in the Outlands. At all. Forever.

Is this the DMG's way of telling me to "Pick a side, we're at war"? :smalltongue:

Nah it's more that the only real feature of the Outlands is the Spire, certain domains of gods, and the gate towns which are just as similar to the planes on the other side. Really the Outlands is just too much like the Prime to be notable.

Tyrant
2010-10-16, 09:48 PM
It's specifically lawful-evil souls who didn't worship a deity in life.
Okay. That makes sense then. Most of my exposure has been through FR, so I have another question along this line. In the Mask of the Betrayer expansion to NWN 2 (which I will say I haven't completely played through yet so maybe it is answered there), I thought it was said that the faithless go to the Wall of the Faithless. So, does this mean things work differently in FR, or is it more along the lines of the of the souls that would go to the Wall of the Faithless the LE souls go to Hell? Or am I missing some element of this equation and it's something else entirely.

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 10:08 PM
Okay. That makes sense then. Most of my exposure has been through FR, so I have another question along this line. In the Mask of the Betrayer expansion to NWN 2 (which I will say I haven't completely played through yet so maybe it is answered there), I thought it was said that the faithless go to the Wall of the Faithless. So, does this mean things work differently in FR, or is it more along the lines of the of the souls that would go to the Wall of the Faithless the LE souls go to Hell? Or am I missing some element of this equation and it's something else entirely.

In FR, IIRC the faithless go to the Wall of the Faithless. However, there are occasional raids on the Wall by demons, who come in and drag souls home to turn into manes. Similarly, devils patrol the wall looking for people willing to sign a contract that gets them out of the wall in exchange for becoming a lemure in Hell.

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 10:09 PM
Definitely the latter. Mostly because the former has an expected duration of no more than eleven minutes, but also because it would be awesome to be a lantern archon.

Now that I've said that, let me say something about the various "afterlives" of the Great Wheel. It is explicitly stated that most normal people are true neutral. As for myself, I was Neutral Good for a while before general misanthropy set in and I firmly planted my self at Apathetic Neutral.

So, this puts the majority of people in the Neutral plane for their afterlife, the Outlands. In the DMG, special detail is given to the effect the spire has on magic and other abilities. Beyond that, it is implied that there is nothing in the Outlands. At all. Forever.

Is this the DMG's way of telling me to "Pick a side, we're at war"? :smalltongue:

Most people are neutral, but most people worship deities, and most deities are not neutral. As such, most people end up on more interesting outer planes.

Tyrant
2010-10-16, 10:26 PM
In FR, IIRC the faithless go to the Wall of the Faithless. However, there are occasional raids on the Wall by demons, who come in and drag souls home to turn into manes. Similarly, devils patrol the wall looking for people willing to sign a contract that gets them out of the wall in exchange for becoming a lemure in Hell.
I see. So, it's eventually being absorbed into the wall or you sign away your soul and lose everything that you once were? How often do you get characters like Marance Talendar (from The Shattered Mask, Sembia series) who are returned to who they once were (and at least in his case returned to the Prime Material, for a time)?

Eldan
2010-10-17, 06:23 AM
So, this puts the majority of people in the Neutral plane for their afterlife, the Outlands. In the DMG, special detail is given to the effect the spire has on magic and other abilities. Beyond that, it is implied that there is nothing in the Outlands. At all. Forever.

Is this the DMG's way of telling me to "Pick a side, we're at war"? :smalltongue:

That doesn't mesh with Planescape lore at all. It is full of features there: divine realms like Semuyana's bog, Tir na nog, Tir fo Thuinn, the dwarven mountain, and other features like the gatetowns, faerie realms and so on. Even outside of those, it's not featureless. It's just that on average, it has features like those you would find on the prime material, if perhaps a little wilder sometimes. And even that is only in the middle, as you near the various outer planes, the outlands take on their aspects. And beyond the Gatetowns are the Hinterlands, which are just weird.
And one of the most interesting aspects of the Outlands: travelling to any place beyond a certain distance (behind the horizon and then a little) always takes the same amount of time. So for any three points A,B,C, travelling A->C takes as long as travelling A->B->C, even if they are in a straight line.