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Tyndmyr
2010-10-12, 05:27 PM
So, I'm curious about the theory, practice, and business aspects of RPG design...any reccomendations for a good place to check out regarding this? The homebrew forum here is great for finding D&D stuff, but not really terribly useful for someone interested in designing a new RPG.

I'm aware of the forge, but I'd prefer a place somewhat less pretentious/ego-driven.

Any thoughts?

Gerbah
2010-10-12, 08:37 PM
Well, I'd look into any books on Game Design specifically, or even look up any interviews with Game Designers, including video game designers. Learning why the made such decisions or what they learned from previous ventures can really help. Post-Mortems are usually pretty good for this.

There are a host of good books, but for the life of me I don't remember the author's name. I'll get back to you once I find out, it sounds like his books would be what you're looking for.

EDIT: I'd also look around http://www.gamasutra.com/ , they have quite a few interviews and postmortems, worth a look.

valadil
2010-10-12, 08:57 PM
I find that the more time I spend reading about game design, the less time I spend doing actual game design. Instead, I'd read up on probability (though knowing Tyndmyr, that's probably already done) and other game mechanics. People who have only played D&D have a tendency to design games like D&D. Check out World of Darkness for an entirely different way to roll checks. Try Risus to see just how light you can get in rules. If your system has more rules than GURPS you're gonna have problems. Then try a bunch of indie games, just to see what else is out there. You don't have to play all these games, just read about and understand them.

Amphetryon
2010-10-12, 09:11 PM
1) Think about the type of game you want to design. High fantasy, gritty post-apocalyptic wasteland, toxic mutant vampire bunnies from space, whatever.
2) Consider the games that you can find that emulate that genre.
3) Examine the things those games do well, do adequately, and fail at horribly.
4) Design improvements on the fail while not plagiarizing the things done well.
5) Think about your new RPG.
6) Repeat steps 3 - 5 ad nauseum.

Raum
2010-10-12, 10:12 PM
So, I'm curious about the theory, practice, and business aspects of RPG design...any reccomendations for a good place to check out regarding this? The homebrew forum here is great for finding D&D stuff, but not really terribly useful for someone interested in designing a new RPG.

I'm aware of the forge, but I'd prefer a place somewhat less pretentious/ego-driven.

Any thoughts?Here are a few links: John Kim's System Design links (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/) (A bit dated but some good info)
A critique of GNS (http://whitehall-paraindustries.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rpg-theory-has-bad-rep-part-i.html) (Not sure there's anything new here but it gathers info into one place.)
Results from WotC's player survey (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html) (Very old!)
More WotC research (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/WotCMarketResearchSummary.html)
Sales numbers for DFRPG (http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/2010/07/20/im-making-a-note-here-big-success/) - a licensed and fairly successful release**Everytime I've seen game authors / publishers talk about it in forums, the advice is "only write if you love it and don't expect to get rich". DFRPG is a relatively big release (for RPGs not D&D, WoD, or GURPS) and sold out of it's initial print run of 6000. Most RPGs are much smaller.

Totally Guy
2010-10-13, 05:27 AM
I've heard this book's good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_Play

This podcast is lighter but could be just what you're after. http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?p=874

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 05:33 AM
1. Read the rules for F.A.T.A.L.
2. Don't write like that.
3. ???
4. Profit.

:smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, my friends and I are working on wirting a 4e campaign world, and even that is difficult considering the amount of homebrewing that has to go into it (Steampunk/Dark Horror Setting).
% seems a relatively easy (and unfortunately common) way to to write a system. Also, I've played old Star Wars d6 system, and oWoD. All three work, IMO, better than the d20 system. Good luck!

Partysan
2010-10-13, 05:45 AM
I second just reading some different systems and thinking about it. D&D, GURPS and nWoD of the big ones (maybe Shadowrun as well), then Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel of the indies and you'll have a good starting point.
You just need to adopt a way of thinking that analyses the effects of rules and design decisions on the gaming experience. For that, play!
I think you can learn a lot of design by just reading and playing the games while leaving your brain on and maybe reading one ore the other article.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-13, 05:53 AM
Start with clear goals, that always helps.

Remember the KISS principle.

Nero24200
2010-10-13, 05:56 AM
I depends on what sort of game you want to make as well. Some games (such as Ars Magica) don't put alot of emphasis on balance, but alot more thought and effort into making the game seem realistic(-esc, it is a fantasy game after all). Others (such as 4th Edition) keep balance as a focal point over diversity (hence why many 4th Edition classes have a similer format, especially when compared to 3.5).

So to start with I'd say to note down what in particular you want the game to acheive.

Gameplay or Realisim? Which one are you likely ot aim for more, to what extent, and why?
Simplistic or Complex? Having alot of options can slow down gameplay and leave balance issues open but allows for a wider variety of actions, as well as a wider variety of characters.
Class Based? Classless? Class Based systems are more limited in what you can play, but can allow more streamlined design. Classless systems can allow for a larger variety (provided enough classless options exist), but also require the players to be more imaginative.

Trying thinking of a few of these things and some others before you really get down to designing the game. If you know what you're aimming for it can make it a little easier to do.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-13, 07:51 AM
EDIT: I'd also look around http://www.gamasutra.com/ , they have quite a few interviews and postmortems, worth a look.

Oh, excellent call. I used to read them quite a bit back in my slashdot days, but had forgotten about them since. No doubt they've got useful stuff.


I find that the more time I spend reading about game design, the less time I spend doing actual game design. Instead, I'd read up on probability (though knowing Tyndmyr, that's probably already done) and other game mechanics.

There is that trap as well. I definitely want to have enough background to not waste my time churning out crap, but too much reading does result in not enough doing. Oh yeah, and probability and stuff is definitely my friend. =)


People who have only played D&D have a tendency to design games like D&D. Check out World of Darkness for an entirely different way to roll checks. Try Risus to see just how light you can get in rules. If your system has more rules than GURPS you're gonna have problems. Then try a bunch of indie games, just to see what else is out there. You don't have to play all these games, just read about and understand them.

Very true. I'm fortunate in that I've been able to play campaigns under quite a few systems with good mechanical diversity(roll and keep, die+modifier, percentile...haven't tried dice pool, though). I'm also fortunate in that I have an extremely large library of sourcebooks to draw on. If it's a popular RPG, I probably have it, and I've got a couple that are no longer common. 7th Sea is probably my biggest influence when it comes to mechanics.

I prefer minimizing rules and required work to run the system, so that rules out GURPS like products. Flexibility comes at a price. An example of a mechanic I prefer is initiative. Everyone rolls. Those who beat the GM go before the enemies(who all act together), and then it becomes a simple alternating system, with all players acting together, then all enemies acting together. It has trade-offs, as with anything, but it's quite flexible for such a simple mechanic.


1) Think about the type of game you want to design. High fantasy, gritty post-apocalyptic wasteland, toxic mutant vampire bunnies from space, whatever.
2) Consider the games that you can find that emulate that genre.
3) Examine the things those games do well, do adequately, and fail at horribly.
4) Design improvements on the fail while not plagiarizing the things done well.
5) Think about your new RPG.
6) Repeat steps 3 - 5 ad nauseum.

Well, I've got a specific concept in mind, and no currently published system(at least, from the popular publishers) does it. You could certainly adapt GURPS or HERO to have a go at it, but that's pretty much true of everything. No doubt I should probably trawl through indie stuff, as there's enough quantity that there's got to be something out there.


Everytime I've seen game authors / publishers talk about it in forums, the advice is "only write if you love it and don't expect to get rich". DFRPG is a relatively big release (for RPGs not D&D, WoD, or GURPS) and sold out of it's initial print run of 6000. Most RPGs are much smaller.

Good list! I'll check em all out. Yeah, I don't expect my very first product to be a commercial success. Just too much of an advertising gap, even if everything else was equal otherwise. Fortunately, my day job is as a software engineer, so as long as I don't lose a terrible amount of money on it, I'm not worried about it.


I depends on what sort of game you want to make as well. Some games (such as Ars Magica) don't put alot of emphasis on balance, but alot more thought and effort into making the game seem realistic(-esc, it is a fantasy game after all). Others (such as 4th Edition) keep balance as a focal point over diversity (hence why many 4th Edition classes have a similer format, especially when compared to 3.5).

So to start with I'd say to note down what in particular you want the game to acheive.

Gameplay or Realisim? Which one are you likely ot aim for more, to what extent, and why?
Simplistic or Complex? Having alot of options can slow down gameplay and leave balance issues open but allows for a wider variety of actions, as well as a wider variety of characters.
Class Based? Classless? Class Based systems are more limited in what you can play, but can allow more streamlined design. Classless systems can allow for a larger variety (provided enough classless options exist), but also require the players to be more imaginative.

Trying thinking of a few of these things and some others before you really get down to designing the game. If you know what you're aimming for it can make it a little easier to do.

Gameplay generally wins over realism. It is a roleplaying game, after all. If it doesn't have enough good gameplay to keep people wanting to play it more, it doesn't matter how realistic it is. I still want a healthy amount of plausibility, sure, but plenty of good games have been made that are very unrealistic.

Hard to answer. Simplistic in that the basic mechanics are kept as simple as possible. I dislike systems like HERO where building a character is likely to require a couple of hours and a calculator. However, there are a significant number of viable choices, both in combat and in creation in any entertaining game(IMO). Without interesting choices, it isn't much of a game.

Classless. I enjoy class-based games, but classless opens so very many possibilities to the creative player. I'll grant that it multiplies balance issues, but if the game isn't interesting enough for people to play, the issue of balance never arises. Therefore, it's secondary.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 08:20 AM
'Dice pool' as you call it, is relatively simple to write (compared to dice + modifiers) IMO, easy to learn, and, more importantly, fun to play with. Who doesn't love to roll handfulls of dice? (I'm looking at you, Ork players!)

It gives you the advantage of not having to worry about dice + modifiers, you just set a DC, and instead of modifiers you say, "you need x number of successes." Not as simple as % rolling with a flat chance of making a successful roll, but personally, I would rather play a dice pool system than a dice + modifiers system. This may boil down to the 'handfulls of dice' thing, though. (I'd play Orks, if I could afford them. :smallbiggrin:)

If you want a true classless system, I won't be of much help, but RM/HARP is darn near classless. Sure, you have a class, but the skill system is so open that you may as well not have a class.

Aotrs Commander
2010-10-13, 09:07 AM
First rule of rules writing. (As I've learned the hard way.)

Decide EXACTLY what it is you want to model with the rules BEFORE you start writing mechanics. Bascially, you want to make sure your rules will model the OUTCOME of what you what to happen first, not the WAY you think it should happen. I see it all the time with wargames rules (because I see them more frequently than RPGs).

As an example of what happens if you don't, look at 3.x. They wrote it thinking what it should run like (e.g. blaster wizards/healbot clerice etc etc), but how it actually runs is very different (Batman Wizard, CoDzilla).

Loads of wargames rules are clearly written by someone going, "oh, I'll write this set of combat mechanics", which leads to all sorts of strange results that are a construct of the interaction of the rules mechanics, as opposed to what probably should have happened. Very few rules writers are also mathmatical modellers, and this shows up far more obviously in wargames than in RPGs, where GM adjudication can cover a lot of holes.

With RPGs, 4E appears to have done much better in that regard; they set out what they wanted to do and it mostly seems to have achived that goal (to my more limited knowledge). (Though I personally don't agree with those goals.)

So, whatever else you do, you should always start by knowing what the answer to the question is before you write the mechanics. Mechanics first will often end up giving you the wrong solution to what you were intending.

So then, before you even decide what sort of dice your system is using, you should write yourself a clear, mechanic-less set of design goals about exactly what results your system should be throwing up before you start working out how to obtain those results. It's also much easier to judge if you're doing it right, since you can just go "no, that's not the result I wanted to get".




Aside: Maneouvre Group (http://www.wargamevault.com/product_info.php?products_id=58211&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=2500) is a great example of how a game comes out when written the right way around, if you're into WW2/moderns. However, it was written as a bit of a giggle over about six or seven years by two extremely bright professionals, one who has actually lectured for the British Army (who supplied a lot of the working knowledge as to what should and does happen) and the other who is a professional engineer (who did all the number crunching). To be fair, even WotC probably couldn't afford to employ them at their professional salaries, though. (Ain't that much money in RPG or wargames, after all!) It's a cacking awesome set of rules though, if you're into that sort of game. (I even use it to play 28mm sci-fi with virtually no changes needed.)

Greenish
2010-10-13, 10:01 AM
1. Read the rules for F.A.T.A.L.Only do this if you have a way of becoming immune to taint.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 10:03 AM
Only do this if you have a way of becoming immune to taint.

Wait. You're not? :smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-13, 10:23 AM
Start with clear goals, that always helps.

Remember the KISS principle.
QFT

It sounds like the OP has some good instincts in regard to game design - that is to say, they're like mine :smallbiggrin:

The only new advice I have is to play a lot of different games with substantially different systems. For this, I recommend digging through the piles of "Indie" RPGs that are currently on the market. Give each of them a shot and see how it works - and then look to see mechanics that you like, and steal them :smallwink:

Seriously, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. Spending time on the math side of things is great if you have a head for it; I don't, so I play games and see what works and what doesn't. Once you find good mechanics (i.e. mechanics that suit your purpose) start tweaking them. Before you know it, you'll have a system that is so far from the sources you used that it looks brand new.

For example, I have on good authority that Burning Wheel was based off of SR1. Noodle that one for a bit :smallcool:

eepop
2010-10-13, 12:09 PM
Swing by the official magic the gathering website. Check out Mark Rosewater's archive. The man has written about a million articles, yes a majority of them are card game specific, but he also has at least 2 dozen that are just solid game design type articles.

Even some things that seem MTG specific can be really illuminating when read from a game design perspective. The articles about player profiles (Spike, Johnny, Timmy, etc) are written heavily referencing the card game, but there are a lot of parallels to gamers of all stripes.

kyoryu
2010-10-13, 01:04 PM
1) Think about the type of game you want to design. High fantasy, gritty post-apocalyptic wasteland, toxic mutant vampire bunnies from space, whatever.
2) Consider the games that you can find that emulate that genre.
3) Examine the things those games do well, do adequately, and fail at horribly.
4) Design improvements on the fail while not plagiarizing the things done well.
5) Think about your new RPG.
6) Repeat steps 3 - 5 ad nauseum.

In complete agreement. The first thing to do is understand what kind of game you want to make, and understand why existing game systems aren't sufficient.

In particular, I'd focus on a couple of things:

1) What decisions should the players make?
2) What's the "feel" of the world/system?

One other thing that may make sense is to write out an ideal play session - don't add mechanics, but just the general flow of the game. Basically, you want to define "success" - how will you know if you've done what you've set out to do? When a real session plays like your idealized session, you're in the right territory.

Lastly, I'd recommend coming up with a simple set of rules, even if horribly unbalanced and insufficient, and start playtesting early. That puts you in the position of making adjustments to something real, and solving real problems, rather than solving imaginary problems of how you think things might work.

Totally Guy
2010-10-13, 03:11 PM
For example, I have on good authority that Burning Wheel was based off of SR1. Noodle that one for a bit :smallcool:

Hey, were you at Luke Crane's party this weekend? :smallwink: I was. It was awesome!

The Big Dice
2010-10-13, 06:22 PM
Play lots of different games. That's a big part of designing a new game. Also, be clear in your mind what your game is about. KNowing what kind of genre you want to model is a useful thing too. A superhero game is a very different beast from a grimdark fantasy game. Yes there are systems that can cross those boundaries, but start small and build up to the big stuff.

Thrawn4
2010-10-13, 06:58 PM
This one (http://www.imaginaryworlds.net/) might will help you.

Also, you should decide whether you want a heroic ("Just five enemies?") or a gritty ("Damn it, the child has a bow") game.

Yora
2010-10-13, 07:13 PM
Play lots of different games. That's a big part of designing a new game. Also, be clear in your mind what your game is about. KNowing what kind of genre you want to model is a useful thing too. A superhero game is a very different beast from a grimdark fantasy game. Yes there are systems that can cross those boundaries, but start small and build up to the big stuff.
I agree with that. My understanding of what RPGs can be basically multiplied when I really started to look at non d20 based systems. Lots of things can be done very differently, but you'll only understand the whole imact of it, if you actually learn the games.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 02:16 PM
'Dice pool' as you call it, is relatively simple to write (compared to dice + modifiers) IMO, easy to learn, and, more importantly, fun to play with. Who doesn't love to roll handfulls of dice? (I'm looking at you, Ork players!)

It gives you the advantage of not having to worry about dice + modifiers, you just set a DC, and instead of modifiers you say, "you need x number of successes." Not as simple as % rolling with a flat chance of making a successful roll, but personally, I would rather play a dice pool system than a dice + modifiers system. This may boil down to the 'handfulls of dice' thing, though. (I'd play Orks, if I could afford them. :smallbiggrin:)

Oh, I've played the warhammer line quite a lot...just didn't include dice pool as an RPG Ive played since those tend to lie on the wargaming side of the fence. I agree though, it's not a hard system to use. Plus, it does provide gamers with an excuse to use lots and lots of dice, which is a plus for many of us.


If you want a true classless system, I won't be of much help, but RM/HARP is darn near classless. Sure, you have a class, but the skill system is so open that you may as well not have a class.

What exactly defines truly classless is a bit subjective. For instance, some of my friends view swordsman schools and the like in 7th Sea as effectively classes, since they provide you with access to skills that can be progressed. However, the fact that you can have 0, 1, or many of them muddles the comparison somewhat.

I'm not adverse to prerequisites resulting in chains of options, or of grouping prerequisites together...I feel this can sometimes feel more natural, and can also alleviate some of the balance issues inherent in a purely point buy system.

As for style, goal of game and the rest, it can be briefly described as "Modern day special forces with a sin city style". That's hardly complete, of course, but it's the basic idea.

Raum
2010-10-15, 03:49 PM
What exactly defines truly classless is a bit subjective. For instance, some of my friends view swordsman schools and the like in 7th Sea as effectively classes, since they provide you with access to skills that can be progressed. However, the fact that you can have 0, 1, or many of them muddles the comparison somewhat. I tend to categorize character classification systems into three types: strict classes, archetypes, and class-less or trait-based. Which you use should depend on what you want characters to model. Do you want definite roles for given characters? Do you want roles to be open? Or something in between?

Good luck with your game!

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-15, 03:54 PM
As for style, goal of game and the rest, it can be briefly described as "Modern day special forces with a sin city style". That's hardly complete, of course, but it's the basic idea.
Sounds like you can adapt Hunter (either oWoD or nWoD) to do that. Base WoD (particularly nWoD) works well as a "classless" system.

Are there any features that WoD is lacking to support your system?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 04:04 PM
I suspect my biggest issue with that is that I don't have it. It's probably doable as an adaptation, the WoD line is among the list of RPGs I don't yet own. Not popular among the gamers I know, for some reason. Im afraid I don't know enough about them to judge them fairly.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-10-15, 04:09 PM
I suspect my biggest issue with that is that I don't have it. It's probably doable as an adaptation, the WoD line is among the list of RPGs I don't yet own. Not popular among the gamers I know, for some reason. Im afraid I don't know enough about them to judge them fairly.
Just pick up the Core nWoD rulebook - it's all you need. The mechanics are dice pool based, it is pure classless, and some of the ancilliary mechanics (e.g. Virtue/Vice) fit well into a Sin City game.

That alone should give you 90% of what you need for a special forces game with Sin City atmosphere. Once you decide on your "extras" you can start tweaking :smallsmile:

Xefas
2010-10-15, 04:21 PM
Here's a podcast (http://frontrowcrew.com/geeknights/20100727/luke-and-jared-on-rpgs/) episode with Luke Crane and Jared Sorenson talking about what makes good RPGs good. The two of them have plenty of interviews on the net, and I'd suggest listening to whatever you can find.

The best thing you could probably do is try to get as much experience with as many different kinds of systems as you can (going to gaming conventions is good for this - if you can get to one where Luke Crane will be there, just latch onto him and never let go). In my experience, people who've only played one or two kinds of systems get stuck in a particular mindset. So, make sure to keep an open mind.

Hint: A good roleplaying game will provide mechanical incentives for telling a good story/roleplaying well, and not necessarily 'succeeding' at any given task, while simultaneously providing a framework for supporting good storytelling/roleplaying.

Arbane
2010-10-15, 04:47 PM
As for style, goal of game and the rest, it can be briefly described as "Modern day special forces with a sin city style". That's hardly complete, of course, but it's the basic idea.

If realism isn't a top priority (and with you mentioning Sin City, I'm guessing it isn't), check out Feng Shui, maybe? Just stick to the non-kungfu or magic-using Archetypes, and you're all set for ludicrous amounts of violence.