Senstive or Dark?

[leper0messiah]

This is gonna sound really stupid, but this commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohC5kyyum4g) got me wondering...do girls (guys can throw their opinion in to) prefer "Dark side" or "sensitive"

I've personally always loved the dark side girl, something about the mysteriousness is just so damn alluring :smallwink:

what's your opinion?

[CynicalAvocado]

mysterious, yet familiar if that makes any sense

[leper0messiah]

mysterious, yet familiar if that makes any sense
o0o0o0o...oxymoron:smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

I prefer Dark, if a choice must be made (which it often doesn't); I like my girls to be sensual, insightful, talkative, intelligent and somewhat depressed.

[Moff Chumley]

See, in my experience, dark=deep-seated immaturity. :smallannoyed:

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I mock goths. Even says so in my Hobbies.

However, both 'sensitive' and 'dark' in both girls and guys make me ill. I don't know where I myself stand, but I'm both a bit dark minded and sensitive at the same time while being nothing like those creeps in the commercial.

I think its more along the lines of 'fey'.

[Moff Chumley]

Link is relevant. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phT0HRC69AA)

[Serpentine]

Of those specific guys? I like Sensitive. I don't think I'd have much in common with Dark Side.

More generally: neither, really. I like idealism and empathy, but not self-righteousness or spinelessness. I like self-confidence and... "coolness", but not arrogance or perpetual misery.

[Gullara]

Link is relevant. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phT0HRC69AA)

I remember that show. He was a ghost and all that stuff.

[Krade]

Of those specific guys? I like Sensitive. I don't think I'd have much in common with Dark Side.

More generally: neither, really. I like idealism and empathy, but not self-righteousness or spinelessness. I like self-confidence and... "coolness", but not arrogance or perpetual misery.

You had me until you said arrogance.:smallwink:

[Moff Chumley]

I remember that show. He was a ghost and all that stuff.

Perhaps the most beautiful summary of a show I've ever read... :smallcool:

[golentan]

In guys (and girls) me likey sensitive more, but dark is a necessity as well.

Basically, I like a guy who'd have that rescued rabbit and it would give him a fuzzy feeling inside, but would pet it while discussing the best rabbit recipes.

[Gullara]

Perhaps the most beautiful summary of a show I've ever read... :smallcool:

What can I say, I'm an artist:smalltongue:


In guys (and girls) me likey sensitive more, but dark is a necessity as well.

Basically, I like a guy who'd have that rescued rabbit and it would give him a fuzzy feeling inside, but would pet it while discussing the best rabbit recipes.

I think said guy would be classified under "...interesting?".

[golentan]

I think said guy would be classified under "...interesting?".

Precisely.

[Joran]

In guys (and girls) me likey sensitive more, but dark is a necessity as well.

Basically, I like a guy who'd have that rescued rabbit and it would give him a fuzzy feeling inside, but would pet it while discussing the best rabbit recipes.

That's a guy with a wicked sense of humor. Sarcasm does not equal dark. I joke about these things all the time and it's never serious.

Dark side guy would make you think he's butchered a rabbit before... or shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

[Gullara]

That's a guy with a wicked sense of humor. Sarcasm does not equal dark. I joke about these things all the time and it's never serious.

Dark side guy would make you think he's butchered a rabbit before... or shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

Ooh yay, xkcd time:smallbiggrin:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/reno_rhymes.png

[golentan]

Why do you assume it's all humor?

Also, those aren't dark. Those are "hungry" and "evil" respectively.

[Lord_Gareth]

See, maybe I lucked out with all the hot goth chicks in my home town being genuinely interesting, intelligent people (though one of them gunning hardcore for a surgical career took...disturbing turns, to say the least. I found her -ahem- private folder once. There's a reason she wasn't on my list of girls to ask to prom because I knew I'd be rejected anyway).

[742]

In guys (and girls) me likey sensitive more, but dark is a necessity as well.

Basically, I like a guy who'd have that rescued rabbit and it would give him a fuzzy feeling inside, but would pet it while discussing the best rabbit recipes.

im much the same, but this wouldnt work for me; i havent once enjoyed rabbit.

[Amiel]

By dark side, do you mean "bad boys" and by sensitive, do you mean "sensitive new-age guys?"

[Quincunx]

In guys (and girls) me likey sensitive more, but dark is a necessity as well.

Basically, I like a guy who'd have that rescued rabbit and it would give him a fuzzy feeling inside, but would pet it while discussing the best rabbit recipes.

And also discussing pet names (http://www.girlswithslingshots.com/GWS144.html).

[Syka]

See, there is a difference between "dark" and "humerous". "Dark" conjures up images (to be) of someone with some serious baggage and issues. Do Not Want.

"Sensitive" comes across as someone whose over emotional and won't stand up for themselves. Also, Do Not Want.

I think Oz hit's it on the head. He's got a dry, sometimes disturbing sense of humor*, but no real serious issues, he's not scared to actually communicate, but he has a back bone and will stand up to my stubbornness. It's all about happy mediums.


*See his first conversation with my best friend. Oh my god...I created a monster by introducing them. Granted, it matches my sense of humor, so I can't really talk...

[Sipex]

Balance is the word I'm looking for. Someone who isn't entirely focused on meeting whatever descriptor they've applied to themselves and is instead just fun to be with.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Interestingly enough, both are usually turn-offs for me. I prefer a girl that's fun and mischievous instead of one that has a Harley and ink all over her body, or one that causes drama and gets angry if you don't talk about her feelings all day.

In the absence of that, I also like the complete opposite - someone that's extremely serious and ambitious. They are fun to tease :tongue:

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Basically, I like a guy who'd have that rescued rabbit and it would give him a fuzzy feeling inside, but would pet it while discussing the best rabbit recipes.
That... that is absolutely me.

[Worira]

Dark side, of course.

http://www.stuckon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/darth-vader.jpg

Hello, ladies.

[golentan]

That... that is absolutely me.

So... What you doing friday? :smallwink:

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Dark side, of course.
Hawt.

I see that your schwartz is as big as mine.

[Obrysii]

I prefer a girl who is intelligent, funny, and friendly.

Those who call themselves "dark" are a little too full of themselves, in my opinion.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Those who call themselves "dark" are a little too full of themselves, in my opinion.
Most likely.

Test them out though. See if they'll give to the Red Cross. If they're out bleeding, then they should at least be doing it for a good cause :smallamused:

[Snares]

I'd probably lean more towards sensitive myself. But definitely not so much that it's their overriding characteristic. Neither 'dark' nor 'sensitive' are particularly high on my list anyway (if they're even on my list).

Most of my closest friends you could class as 'goths', but I wouldn't call any of them dark... they're all so happy all the time. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

I prefer a girl who is intelligent, funny, and friendly.

Those who call themselves "dark" are a little too full of themselves, in my opinion.

I'd add Kind to that list.
I'm not into meanies.

[CrimsonAngel]

The one who's dark in public and sensitive when you're alone.

[Zocelot]

Dark, for sure. Though not goth, because I think goths look ridiculous.

[CrimsonAngel]

Dark, for sure. Though not goth, because I think goths look ridiculous.

Goths are sexy!

[Orzel]

That commercial made me hungry when I saw it.
don't know it that classifies as dark or sensitive.

My choice is banana.

[WarKitty]

*rant warning ahead*

I'd probably be a self-described "dark" girl. Incidentally I hate the term "baggage." I come with problems. A lot of them. I come with a case of ptsd related to past abuse, and a hell of a lot of cutting scars. The expected way of dealing with that in most people's minds seems to be "act like it never happened." I don't do that because it's not healthy. That's why I got into some of the goth subculture - it felt like I was actually welcomed without being expected to deny my own past.

I'm also an interested student, an athlete, and a roleplayer. I think I have a lot of things I could bring to a relationship if someone was willing to look past the issues. A lot of times when guys say they don't want a girl with baggage, they mean they don't want a girl with problems in her life. It means girls like me that still struggle with mental health disorders get labelled as unwanted and undateable.

[Serpentine]

I see that your schwartz is as big as mine.Lets see how well you can use it :smallamused:

[Amiel]

He has the force.

I actually like the look of goths, to a point.

[WarKitty]

He has the force.

I actually like the look of goths, to a point.

Which variety of goth do you mean? I mean there's this:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/goth_woman-vampire.jpg

And then there's this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n7Vt1sT-3_4/S7ZQiWzaHXI/AAAAAAAAIio/kmfr8x0dows/s1600/The_Cyber_Goth_42.jpg

[Serpentine]

I prefer Victoriana goth, but all of the above.

[Amiel]

I actually prefer the look of a goth who doesn't look too "gothy", if that makes any sense? Like black hair, mascara but none of the extremes of that fashion subculture.

[Lord_Gareth]

Which variety of goth do you mean? I mean there's this:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/goth_woman-vampire.jpg

And then there's this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n7Vt1sT-3_4/S7ZQiWzaHXI/AAAAAAAAIio/kmfr8x0dows/s1600/The_Cyber_Goth_42.jpg

I love both of these pics and would do them in a heartbeat, should my wife prove pliable enough for me to convince her to join in.

And no, that's not impossible. I have the best wife ever.

[Moff Chumley]

Dark side, of course.

http://www.stuckon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/darth-vader.jpg

Hello, ladies.

/thread


*rant warning ahead*

I'd probably be a self-described "dark" girl. [snip]

I'm not sure I buy that. We all have issues, every single one of us. We manifest them in different ways, sure, and some are absolutely more significant than others. But there's nothing fundamentally "different" about you or anyone else.

That's really my biggest complaint about the whole Goth subculture; it perpetuates the fiction that you deal with unique problems, that no one else has to deal with. And that's simply egotistical, on some levels. *waits for girlfriend to show up and shout at me* :smalltongue:

[The Antagonist]

/thread
That's really my biggest complaint about the whole Goth subculture; it perpetuates the fiction that you deal with unique problems, that no one else has to deal with. And that's simply egotistical, on some levels. *waits for girlfriend to show up and shout at me* :smalltongue:

Actually, I agree with you. To a rather full degree.

Though if you're implying that I'm goth then we have some business to settle, Sir Chumley...

[Moff Chumley]

Not in the least. :smallamused:

@V: Well then NYEH. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

I will reiterate my wonderment that I seem to have the only cool goths in the world living in my home town.

[WarKitty]

I'm not sure I buy that. We all have issues, every single one of us. We manifest them in different ways, sure, and some are absolutely more significant than others. But there's nothing fundamentally "different" about you or anyone else.

That's really my biggest complaint about the whole Goth subculture; it perpetuates the fiction that you deal with unique problems, that no one else has to deal with. And that's simply egotistical, on some levels. *waits for girlfriend to show up and shout at me* :smalltongue:

I guess we have very different experiences of Goth subculture then. My experience of it was "we all have problems so we shouldn't have to hide or avoid them." As opposed to "normal" society around here, which is "only bad weird freaky people talk about their problems."

The main gripe is coming from someone who's had far too many guys go "self-harm scars, talks openly about rape...has issues, stay away." Whatever you think about goth subculture, I just get a little ticked when someone starts talking about a guy/girl having too much baggage or somesuch.

[The Antagonist]

Not in the least. :smallamused:

I'ma kick you in the head...


I guess we have very different experiences of Goth subculture then. My experience of it was "we all have problems so we shouldn't have to hide or avoid them." As opposed to "normal" society around here, which is "only bad weird freaky people talk about their problems."

The gothic subculture, I find, is just what Moff said - an excuse for people to think they're better than others. To dwell in themselves. All this talk of "Life is pain and everyone sucks" comes with the clause "and I'm the only person awake enough to realize it", and that seriously bugs me. Plus, it seems to me like nothing more than a cheap attempt at standing out in a world where no one really cares, in a way that just makes people dislike you even more.

My two cents.

[WarKitty]

I'ma kick you in the head...

The gothic subculture, I find, is just that - an excuse for people to think they're better than others. To dwell in themselves. All this talk of "Life is pain and everyone sucks" comes with the clause "and I'm the only person awake enough to realize it", and that seriously bugs me. Plus, it seems to me like nothing more than a cheap attempt at standing out in a world wehre no one really cares, in a way that just makes people dislike you even more.

My two cents.

If no one cares anyway why not? :smallbiggrin:

Edit: This is a big issue. How do you handle being dissatisfied with society while avoiding being arrogant? How do you stand up and say "this is wrong and needs to change" without saying you're the only one awake enough to realize it?

[Moff Chumley]

*shruggity shrug* Must be a regional thing, I guess, because the guys I hang out with tend to be slightly more open-minded... I dunno. Also, I'm leery of almost all clearly defined subcultures, especially Steampunk, which intersects with Goth quite a bit.

So there's that, I suppose.

[Lord_Gareth]

Your experiences with Goth are vastly different from mine, it would seem.

In any event, we all have to admit that the fashion is awesome, no?

[The Antagonist]

In any event, we all have to admit that the fashion is awesome, no?

Depends. You talking real goth or Hot Topic goth? :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Depends. You talking real goth or Hot Topic goth? :smalltongue:

I'm talking Tasteful Individual as opposed to Drama Queen or Twi-Tard :P

[The Antagonist]

I like the way you think.

[WarKitty]

Depends. You talking real goth or Hot Topic goth? :smalltongue:

Ok hot topic goth just amuses me. :smalltongue: I mean, in all fairness, clothes are clothes and as long as you're wearing them I don't much care. But I would not be caught dead in most of what they sell. Maybe one or two pairs of fingerless gloves, but that's it. If I'm gonna put that much effort into my attire, I'm much happier with a long flowing skirt and matching top. With lace.

[Moff Chumley]

Hah, people who put effort into their appearance... you amuse me. :smalltongue:

@V: But bear in mind I didn't actually DO anything about it. :smalltongue:

[The Antagonist]

I just wear band tees and pants/skirts that match. It's not my fault that most of my wardrobe is black...


Hah, people who put effort into their appearance... you amuse me. :smalltongue:

Says the guy who got rather upset over applesauce on his "favorite shirt"... :smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Wow. Beating on the goths, much? :smallconfused: As far as I'm ever aware, the gothic culture is some combination of: aesthetic and style; interest in the macabe; and a liking for particular genres of music, film, literature and/or other media.
I've known a wannabe-goth, an ex-goth and a friend-of-goths (the last two were from Canberra, interestingly). They and/or their description of their friends and/or pasts fit firmly into my above description, and almost entirely not in The Antagonist's or Moff's.

[Don Julio Anejo]

4 goths isn't exactly a sample representative of the population. There's what you describe, but more commonly there's simply either "life is pain" goths or hot topic goths who are like oh my god so cool and dark and vampires are like so totally awesome.

[TheThan]

Ahem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE3u7jeNMbM&feature=related


I like sensitive myself, but emotionally stable. I don't like it when people needlessly wear their emotions on their sleeves. I find it hard to get interested in a person with issues (legitimate or not). But having an emotional moment with my SO is fine.

[drakir_nosslin]

I prefer to hang out with people with a lot of sarcasm and dark humor, since I tend to use it myself all the time. However, I can't stand people who can't take care of themselves and sit around feeling sorry for themselves all the time because of some dark things in their past. Goths can be sexy though, as long as it's not taken too far.

Also, this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrmOTkcfZgA) is very relevant. Just hang in there, he starts singing after about a minute or so.

[Amiel]

I'll like to take the third option, become a viking, pillage and profit gloriously.


I like pale-skinned brunettes :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

4 goths isn't exactly a sample representative of the population. There's what you describe, but more commonly there's simply either "life is pain" goths or hot topic goths who are like oh my god so cool and dark and vampires are like so totally awesome.It wasn't "4 goths". For starters, I only mentioned 3 not-quite-goths. But they were also talking about their respective friends - a good dozen-odd individuals - and the entire Canberra goth scene, which seems to be quite substantial.
What evidence do you have for the claim that ""life is pain" goths" are "more common" than ""I like black clothes and the macabe" goths"? Because I have heard of none of those - and to me they sound more like emos, and goths who are making fun of people who think goths are all about how "life is pain" - but have heard of a large number of goths and goth scenes that are all about enjoying the style, genre and mocking the stereotypes.

Take, for example, my ex-goth friend. When I knew her, she was into black and vampires and spiders and black nailpolish and her room was painted dark purple and things like that, but she wasn't - or was only rarely - a "practicing goth". 'course, that didn't stop people from being all "OMG GOTH!" when she wore black nailpolish to school once :smallsigh: She doesn't remember it, but I actually borrowed a Ravenloft book off of her to read (long before I'd even heard of D&D).
She told me stories about her friends back home. One that I particularly remember was about how, when it was pouring rain, she and a friend of hers would sit in the middle of the courtyard, back-to-back, all gothed-up. They would sit and stare straight ahead, with a dead straight face. If either of them thought they were about to smile, they would switch positions.
They didn't do this because "life is pain", or because "noone understands them" or "this is a statement about the futility of existance". They did it because it was fun. Specifically, they did it because superstitious non-goths who buy into the "goths are evil and think life is pain" stereotypes would be weirded out by it, and they enjoyed messing with people.
That is the main thing I've heard about goths. They know the stereotypes, they like them, and no matter how much they deviate from that stereotype, they enjoy screwing with the heads of the people who believe them.

So, basically, I suspect you've been trolled IRL :smallamused:

[Don Julio Anejo]

Serp, the explanation is simpler than that. All the goths I knew were from when I went to high school. Which will make me sound quite old, since it was before anyone even knew what emo was and Taking Back Sunday was actually cool.

Back then goths were simply the "life is pain" and "I'm so original but no-one understands me" subculture. People who simply wore black leather and white makeup were simply people people who wore black leather and white makeup. If anything, people probably thought of them as metalheads. They weren't considered goth unless 1. they identified themselves as goth and 2. for them "life was pain."

I never cared enough for the subculture itself to do any substantial research and any what you'd probably consider goths I've been friends with (well, acquaintances really) I never really attached the "goth" label to, since they were "normal" people who simply liked the fashion (which in my opinion doesn't make someone a part of the subculture, it merely means they like to dress a certain way).

[Serpentine]

Then this is a difference of definition *shrug* As far as you're concerned, goths are all about "life is pain" because your definition of goths requires it. Mine is about the popculture, style and interests, which is based on my own (largely limited and second-hand) experience, and appears to be at least partially shared by others.
Oh, and of the three girls I mentioned, #1 specifically wanted to be goth (but didn't have the nerve to stand up to small-town sensibilities), #2 specifically referred to herself and her friends as goths, and #3 specifically referred to her friends as goths, so the self-identification is there.

[Don Julio Anejo]

My definition doesn't require "life is pain" but it requires self-identification. It's just that the only people I've met who self-identified as goths were either "life is pain" type or the slightly more recent "OMG vampires are so cool I want to be just like them!"

[Amiel]

But vampires are indeed cool and/or sparkly; it is because they sparkle in sunlight that so many wish to emulate and become them; subsisting mostly on a diet of tomato sauce/ketchup packets.

The wearing of dark colours and the application of mascara is only incidental.

[Syka]

I've never self-identified as goth (beyond saying "I'm a Goth! ...literally. No seriously...I'm part German...). I've been called a goth, and my attire could be best termed a goth. Well, could. Not so much more now but that's mostly a function of needing to fit the norms of clothing in order to not be a sore thumb in the business world/school. If I had my way, I'd still be dressing as I used to and still do on occasion. I still wear lots of black, but my boots only come out in winter, my mom finally talked me in to trashing a ratty old pair of guy pants I have (saved the other pair!), I still have leather cufflinks (real leather with metal d-rings from Zipperhead in Philly), I have a collar...somewhere, lost. I love my fingerless gloves, I'm a huge horror fan, and I have a very macabre sense of humor. If my life allows it, over the summer I'm going to by dying my hair (dark red this time, it was blue back in high school). My nails are always dark colors (black, midnight blue, dark violet, dark red) if they're painted.

I still don't identify as goth despite pinging almost every physical characteristic, other than make up. I'm the happiest freaking goth I've ever met, though. :smallbiggrin: And yeah...I do still get called it when I dress how I'd prefer to dress.

Not a Hot Topic goth, though. They have some cool stuff but it's all cheap and crappy.


....I wish I wasn't going in to the business world. :smallfrown: I want so many more piercings and I want tattoo's without having to worry about location and, dammit, I want fun hair colors! I refuse to dye my hair unless it's a fun color.

[Amiel]

"The dark side is strong in this one, I can feel the anger dwelling within you"; Star Wars Gangster Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8b5ruc_-E) (possibly very NSFW (it's rap, what did you expect?), but oh so hilarious).

[Sipex]

On a bit of an off subject, I find it interesting how roleplaying attracts a few certain subcultures in our society. Goths being one but others which I've seen prevalent are (obviously) nerds/geeks and (surprisingly) metal heads.

Half my current group is made up of people who don't leave home without a band T-shirt and no play weekends are often instated because the group is off seeing a band in a nearby city.

That said, on WarKitty's point, you must be young or see a lot of idiots because once you hit adulthood you realise that EVERYONE you date (guy, girl, trans, whatever) has baggage. If they don't then they're lying to you or simply don't know what baggage is.

[Serpentine]

I know a metalhead who used to play (some mangled variant of) D&D in high school.

[Amiel]

Metalhead and goth fans like the game for the same reasons as nerds; it is a forum for the expression of limitless creativity.

[Serpentine]

Reminds me of a comic I read once, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was from. So I'll describe it, instead:

A pair of guys are working in a gaming store or similar. A fully doled-up goth walks in, looks around and then buys (something like) a manga, a video game and something else geeky. After they leave, one guy says to the other "ever noticed that goths are really just geeks who wear a lot of black?"

[Morph Bark]

"Dark" and "sensitive" are such ambiguous words. And ambiguity isn't a good way to be in a relationship!

Personally... as long as a person has the sort of humour that isn't all dark or lame, but who can laugh about some lame things, that's the way I'd wanna go. Black/dark humour isn't really my thing, even though some black comedy is really enjoyable.

If a person is dark or sensitive, but can't bring out a good laugh, that's a big downer to me. And if they can't go along with intelligent conversation, it's bye-bye.


"The dark side is strong in this one, I can feel the anger dwelling within you"; Star Wars Gangster Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8b5ruc_-E) (possibly very NSFW (it's rap, what did you expect?), but oh so hilarious).

Agreed on hilarity. Mos' deff'.

[Pyrian]

..."ever noticed that goths are really just geeks who wear a lot of black?"This. And I know a ton of Goths. Most of the metalheads I know are nerds, too, and I used to think that was sampling bias (i.e., of the many nerds I know, some are metalheads, rather than all the metalheads I know being nerds), but as I go to more concerts that's seeming less and less plausible.

EDIT: Oh, and while everybody has baggage, some people just have carry-on or a "personal item", while others need two carts to get out of baggage claim...

[Sipex]

It makes sense though, take the very basic idea of geek/nerdism: Obsessive and knowledgeable about what you like.

Geeks/Nerds tend to gravitate towards more obvious subjects publicly (ie: Sci Fi, Gaming, Science) which is what most people tend to identify them with. But then you take a look at goths and metalheads and you find that they're the exact same way, just different subjects.

[Quincunx]

Well, Syka, you're also in Florida where the fashion rules for being goth were a tad different, or as one of the college upperclassmen put it, "You can always pick out the freshmen because they're still trying to wear all black in the summer even though they're sweating to death".


...Oh, and while everybody has baggage, some people just have carry-on or a "personal item", while others need two carts to get out of baggage claim...

This. Thisthisthisthisthis. . .This.

You packed it, you brought it, you carry it.

[WarKitty]

On a bit of an off subject, I find it interesting how roleplaying attracts a few certain subcultures in our society. Goths being one but others which I've seen prevalent are (obviously) nerds/geeks and (surprisingly) metal heads.

Half my current group is made up of people who don't leave home without a band T-shirt and no play weekends are often instated because the group is off seeing a band in a nearby city.

That said, on WarKitty's point, you must be young or see a lot of idiots because once you hit adulthood you realise that EVERYONE you date (guy, girl, trans, whatever) has baggage. If they don't then they're lying to you or simply don't know what baggage is.

Probably both. I also grew up in a less than tolerant area. Having a non-standard gender or sexual identity pretty much makes you undateable (and a lot of people don't want to associate with you).

I don't know. I've pretty much been labeled undateable by a lot of people who don't want to deal with mental health problems. I'm not going to try to get into comparisons, but certainly some of mine is more obvious than other people's. It's hard to hide not having the flashbacks quite under control. That's my main gripe - a lot of the people I've seen talk about "too much baggage" are talking about people with mental health problems. And it can be very ugly because they're basically saying they won't date someone until they manage to "snap out of it." Which doesn't work.

Edit @ Quincunx: See that doesn't sound like a relationship to me. A relationship means you'll help me bear my issues and I'll help you bear yours. If you don't want to help deal with someone else's problems you're not mature enough to date, in my book.

[Morph Bark]

This. Thisthisthisthisthis. . .This.

You packed it, you brought it, you carry it.

But I like it when others carry my toothbrush for me!

[Quincunx]

WarKitty, then it might not be your gender misidentity which makes you undateable. Part of being in a relationship is not dumping problems on your partner which your partner did not create in the first place. If partner wants to help, fine, but you can't demand it.

[Sipex]

Just gotta keep looking then.

It's understandable to a point, some people just aren't able to deal with a certain magnitude of issues. It's not fair, not in any way but it doesn't make them horrid people. If you think about it, would a relationship with someone who can't adapt to your issues really work anyways?

Anyone expecting you to 'just snap out of it' isn't reasonable though.

[WarKitty]

WarKitty, then it might not be your gender misidentity which makes you undateable. Part of being in a relationship is not dumping problems on your partner which your partner did not create in the first place. If partner wants to help, fine, but you can't demand it.

See that's not how I see relationships working. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "dumping problems on them." Of course you don't expect a partner to fix everything. You expect a partner to be there when you're upset (within reason obviously) and be willing to hold your hand and give you a shoulder to cry on. You expect them to be willing to listen when you need to talk. And you do the same for them.

@Sipex: The baggage talk though...the way it's usually put isn't "I can't handle this." It's "this person is too damaged to be dateable."

[Crow]

I don't like either.

Dark seems to hint at a hidden immaturity, and sensitive starts to border on self-pity (My biggest peeve). I find it hard to even listen to music where the singer whines about themself.

[Quincunx]

Sometimes "what you need" is subordinate to "what this relationship needs"--and yes, abused folk have a notoriously difficult time accepting this since they have had to force "what I need" first in order to break free of the abuse, and hold fast to it as their salvation--and if "what this relationship needs" is "not following the script of the baggage-laden relationships which came before it", you may not snap out of it but you surely do suck some of it up, because within the borders of this current relationship the problem is coming from you. You must, visibly, put in some effort to handle your own baggage instead of dumping all the problems on the partner and expecting partner to solve everything you while you remain burdened. Marching into the room and announcing, "I have problems and I need your help!" might be the way to get dialogue going on the forums but it is a crappy way to start a relationship--shouting for a repair guy when you want an equal partner.

[Pyrian]

You expect a partner to be there when you're upset (within reason obviously) and be willing to hold your hand and give you a shoulder to cry on. You expect them to be willing to listen when you need to talk. And you do the same for them.That all sounds very reasonable and has very little to do with my experience of the various problems of "excessive baggage". I mean, some people are upset almost all the time and need an ear and shoulder almost all the time and are consequently very rarely equipped to reciprocate. And yet, those people often find relationships easily, as for every person who is needy there seems to be a corresponding person who needs to be needed.

No, to me "undateable baggage" is when the person can't function in a healthy relationship with me. Or, perhaps vice-versa (see below). And I've met quite a few people like that. (...Dated some, even...) Anger issues. Trust issues. Severe perspective issues. And, yes, some sexual issues.


@Sipex: The baggage talk though...the way it's usually put isn't "I can't handle this." It's "this person is too damaged to be dateable."Meh. People phrase everything that way. The shelf is too high, not I'm too short. Nobody thinks their feet are the wrong size for their shoes. You probably shouldn't take people seeing the world from their own perspective as anything more than that. I mean, don't get me wrong, I firmly believe it's better to take a wider perspective, but it's hardly something I can expect from much of anyone, even myself.

[mangosta71]

One of my major difficulties is that I'm extremely self-sufficient - I only start looking for help after I've exhausted myself trying to take care of whatever-it-is by myself - and expect my partners to have that trait as well. I don't mind helping someone else with their issues, but I fully expect them to take a primary, active role in resolving them. I don't get into relationships so that I can fix someone else. Maybe that makes me a terrible person - if so, I'll add it to the list of reasons. In the end, every person is responsible for their own happiness/state of mind.

I also place a very high value on solitude and personal space, so I have low tolerance for excessively needy individuals.

As for the original question, be sensitive or dark or whatever fits you, but don't be a drama queen.

[The Antagonist]

That all sounds very reasonable and has very little to do with my experience of the various problems of "excessive baggage". I mean, some people are upset almost all the time and need an ear and shoulder almost all the time and are consequently very rarely equipped to reciprocate. And yet, those people often find relationships easily, as for every person who is needy there seems to be a corresponding person who needs to be needed.

No, to me "undateable baggage" is when the person can't function in a healthy relationship with me. Or, perhaps vice-versa (see below). And I've met quite a few people like that. (...Dated some, even...) Anger issues. Trust issues. Severe perspective issues. And, yes, some sexual issues.


At least speaking for myself, I hate finding myself dumping my problems on others because I'm afraid it weighs them down, and whenever I do it tends to ruin my relationships with people.

It seems to me like there's a huge difference between actually needing help and being brave enough to reach out for it, and just being unable to care for yourself, crying over everything, relying on others to take care of you. There's a difference between needing to be needed and wanting to be needed/creating reasons for you to be needed. I can't stand people who will show up one day and just complain about the resons why their lives are so much more horrible than everyone else's, just begging for sympathy. And, frankly, I don't think I could ever function in a relationship with a person like that, because I can't handle all that stress. Now, people who suppress everything aren't much better, but that's beside the point...

Also, a lot of times, your problems become your partner's problems (another issue of mine...) so it's typically better to have other outlets than just your loved one(s). Otherwise you're both miserable.

Perhaps I've completely missed the point of what you folks were talking about... Oh well.

[The Antagonist]

Also:


I've pretty much been labeled undateable by a lot of people who don't want to deal with mental health problems. I'm not going to try to get into comparisons, but certainly some of mine is more obvious than other people's. It's hard to hide not having the flashbacks quite under control. That's my main gripe - a lot of the people I've seen talk about "too much baggage" are talking about people with mental health problems. And it can be very ugly because they're basically saying they won't date someone until they manage to "snap out of it." Which doesn't work.

You probably just haven't met the right person. I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true. Don't tell him I told you this *cough* but, my boyfriend, for example, was labelled "undateable" by plenty of people - I think even himself, at one point. I still get people who say, "You're dating him? Wow. I never thought he'd ever get a girl..." But, hey, I love him to death. And, vice versa. I'm not the most mentally stable person by any means - not in the least. But I can still be loved, eh?

No matter how "unstable" or "undateable" you are, there is bound to be at least one person in the world who will want to walk you through it all and help you and be by your side. Does that make them irrational? Perhaps. But that's why we love these guys. Because they aren't afraid to care about We the United Psychos. Plus, people who aren't willing to look through someone's mental problems and get to the true them isn't the type of person you want to be dating. Being in a stable relationship, I've found, has a lot to do with looking through that film of whatever issues the person has and getting at their heart and core - the truth, soul, spirit, whatever you want to call it. It takes a special person to see beyond that outer layer of What is wrong with them...? and see something beautiful. And, after a while, even a person's flaws become beautiful.

...I sound way too soppy. I'll go hide now.

[Trog]

:smallsmile: I heavily favor the more light personalities for significant others. A little baggage is fine (and, I think, the norm) as long as I am not forced to carry it. Dark to me seems to point to all kinds of troubled emotional issues. I don't mind someone that has undergone adversity, but I like it if they are able to learn to deal with their own dark side without the need to turn it into baggage for others to carry.

As for sensitive... hmm... well... sensitive sure beats INsensitive, I suppose... though I still likes 'em snarky. :smalltongue::smallwink:

[RabbitHoleLost]

I don't want your drama.

That's pretty much how I sum up my preferences in this question.
Unless you are a particular sparkly Goblin King, I don't want your issues. I don't want to fix you. I don't want to be your beast of burden.

I'm more than happy to help you on occasion. I'm more than willing to lend an ear sometimes, when you need it.
But relationships, for me, have to be an equal exchange. Or, atleast, in my mind, ideally, both parts should shoot for it.
And if you're having emotional crises all the time and breaking down every other day in tears infront of me (and this is NOT a hyperbole. This has happened), I can't deal.
I am not the person you're looking for.
I'm out.

Also, this applies to friendship as well, but is much more fluid in rules. I can put up with a little bit more, til a certain point.

[TheThan]

guys I hate to break it to you, but Life is pain, anyone who says differently selling you selling something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urGVKx3H_Rk)

[Moff Chumley]

This. Thisthisthisthisthis. . .This.

You packed it, you brought it, you carry it.

Sometimes "what you need" is subordinate to "what this relationship needs"

Have I mentioned frequently enough that you're a goddam badass?


Snip

This. Very much this.


I don't like either.

Dark seems to hint at a hidden immaturity, and sensitive starts to border on self-pity (My biggest peeve). I find it hard to even listen to music where the singer whines about themself.

Exactly. It all boils down, fundamentally, to immaturity.


Don't tell him I told you this *cough* but, my boyfriend, for example, was labelled "undateable" by plenty of people - I think even himself, at one point.

Don't tell who what now? :smalltongue:

[WarKitty]

So what exactly are we considering mature? I find among the people I know the darker types are typically more towards what I consider mature, while the brighter ones are the ones that want to deal with problems by covering their ears and shouting "lalalalala" at the top of their lungs.

[Coidzor]

guys I hate to break it to you, but Life is pain, anyone who says differently selling you selling something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urGVKx3H_Rk)

Yeah, but who wants to hear someone whining about it? :smallyuk:

I must confess though... I'm still confused as to what exactly is meant by the question.

I mean, well, "dark" is such a vague term that it and sensitive are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Edit: Come to think of it... Don't they also mean very different things when applied to women as opposed to applied to men?

Big Box of Spoilered responses to the thread after reading through the body of it. So, nothing to see here, move along.
Edit: This is a big issue. How do you handle being dissatisfied with society while avoiding being arrogant? How do you stand up and say "this is wrong and needs to change" without saying you're the only one awake enough to realize it?

Because they're identified as goths not activists, so they aren't really conceived as making it to the trying to change things point? :smallconfused: I dunno, really, but wanting or trying to change society is... not one of the primary things I would go to when thinking about goth or goths. Nor does it really seem to be something I would expect others to be likely to conclude.


Ahem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE3u7jeNMbM&feature=related

Thank you for that link.


So, basically, I suspect you've been trolled IRL :smallamused:

So, basically, I should like them for being IRL trolls? :smallconfused: I thought we were supposed to frown on trolls.

UP IS DOWN, BLACK IS WHITE, BUCKLEY IS A GOOD WEBCOMIC ARTIST! I don't know what to believe anymore.


shouting for a repair guy when you want an equal partner.

Even scarier, I've known some guys who live to be that repair guy. :smalleek:

[Quincunx]

In some ways, yeah. A man with darkness can just go with Eau de Testosterone from Sitting in the Floridian Sun in Full Goth Regalia and call it good. A woman who wants to smell dark has to work at it--that just-scrubbed soapy freshness isn't dark enough. (On the other hand, when it comes to being bowered with sensitivity, the guy is the one who's stuck with the extra work. Try to find sensitively scented aftershave.)

*****

If we're now answering in song, I should have been wise enough to heed this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi4V04Qs8Go), the anathema of my post-count.

[Coidzor]

In some ways, yeah. A man with darkness can just go with Eau de Testosterone from Sitting in the Floridian Sun in Full Goth Regalia and call it good. A woman who wants to smell dark has to work at it--that just-scrubbed soapy freshness isn't dark enough. (On the other hand, when it comes to being bowered with sensitivity, the guy is the one who's stuck with the extra work. Try to find sensitively scented aftershave.)

I don't think he'd just smell of Eau de Testosterone, he'd be producing several marketable bottles of it a day in that kind of getup. :smalleek:

Hoo! I haven't been in Florida since I hit the age of majority, and I'm still horrified by the idea of even being in the comparatively survivable area of Orlando....

I'm not even sure what to read into translating dark into either sweaty or sunburned or odiferousness. Mostly because I've never really run into that sort of interpretation. The closest mental connection is a leap from smokiness, burnt, and certain woods, like balsa or cedar. Or Mahogany.

Is it just me, or have all the song answers been imperceptibly murky in regards to actually answering the question?

I mean, no one really wants to sleep with an actual Dark Side adept, they're notorious for going all Bobbit with energy weapons and all that jazz, after all.

[WarKitty]

Because they're identified as goths not activists, so they aren't really conceived as making it to the trying to change things point? :smallconfused: I dunno, really, but wanting or trying to change society is... not one of the primary things I would go to when thinking about goth or goths. Nor does it really seem to be something I would expect others to be likely to conclude.

Ok, I wasn't thinking primarily "goth" when I made that reference. I was thinking "dark" in general. Goth is a music and clothing style, one I happen to like. Dark is a personality and behavior trait.

[RabbitHoleLost]

So what exactly are we considering mature? I find among the people I know the darker types are typically more towards what I consider mature, while the brighter ones are the ones that want to deal with problems by covering their ears and shouting "lalalalala" at the top of their lungs.

Really? Because all the bright happy people I know have already dealt with their problems and moved on, not hidden them.
Or, you know, rolled around and worn them on themselves in dark colors or written poetry about their issues, but have done no self-exploration or really any forward moving motion to save themselves.
This is what I consider maturity- the ability to solve your own problems on your own, with minimal help from others unless needed, and move on.
I understand there are circumstances when "minimal help from others" may be a whole crapton of help overall, but as long as the situation is dealt with and you don't bemoan it any longer, that's great. Sometimes we all need a crapton of help. Sometimes we're not able to help ourselves.
But I think one's goals should always shoot to being able to take care of oneself.

[WarKitty]

Really? Because all the bright happy people I know have already dealt with their problems and moved on, not hidden them.
Or, you know, rolled around and worn them on themselves in dark colors or written poetry about their issues, but have done no self-exploration or really any forward moving motion to save themselves.
This is what I consider maturity- the ability to solve your own problems on your own, with minimal help from others unless needed, and move on.
I understand there are circumstances when "minimal help from others" may be a whole crapton of help overall, but as long as the situation is dealt with and you don't bemoan it any longer, that's great. Sometimes we all need a crapton of help. Sometimes we're not able to help ourselves.
But I think one's goals should always shoot to being able to take care of oneself.

Well, first off I've never seen "dark" and "happy" as necessarily in opposition, so there is that. I guess many of the bright/happy people I know fall into the category of "spoiled rich kid that's never had to worry about anything worse than a bad grade." I'm a campus rape activist; I consider part of my job to remind people that bad things do happen. I'm very outspoken about my own past because I think it's something people need to hear - not that they need to hear it about me as a person specifically, but they need to hear that there's a relatively "normal" person who's been through those things. And guess what? I'm still here, I'm still getting through school, playing D&D, and basically having a normal student life.

[Coidzor]

The funny thing being, that Rabbs went to some kinda goth prom, or something along those lines, not too long ago.

And looks rather good in that sorta thing, from what I've seen, having more of the raven queen than sun maiden aspect of womanhood about her, physically at least. :smallamused:

******************************

Certainly physically I have a decided predilection towards admiring more along the lines of the pale, raven-haired, dusky persuasions, but the more physically sensitive are also the most fun to be had in torturing as well, so you can't discount sensitivity physically either... Hmm, that is a tough one.

Of course, it's also not really a good translation either, considering it pits an aesthetic option versus a nervous system setup...

Mainly though, I"m getting infuriated because the more I wrack myself to come to grips with the question the more I come back to not having a context with which to wrestle with it in. Or even, within the contexts I have found that it could potentially be, there's still less meaning than grasping at straws due to the wide range and mutability of the reality of the parameters. I feel like going on a tirade about how everything is meaningless now. x.x

[mangosta71]

Well, first off I've never seen "dark" and "happy" as necessarily in opposition, so there is that. I guess many of the bright/happy people I know fall into the category of "spoiled rich kid that's never had to worry about anything worse than a bad grade." I'm a campus rape activist; I consider part of my job to remind people that bad things do happen. I'm very outspoken about my own past because I think it's something people need to hear - not that they need to hear it about me as a person specifically, but they need to hear that there's a relatively "normal" person who's been through those things. And guess what? I'm still here, I'm still getting through school, playing D&D, and basically having a normal student life.

There's no reason that terms as vague as dark and happy have to be opposites. Thing is, I don't think that a person can really be happy until they've worked on their issues. As an example, I'm extremely cynical but generally content. I would probably be labeled as a "dark" person, but that doesn't mean I'm always miserable.

I think it's good that you're doing something about your problems. Go out, kick their ass, and above all don't let them define you.

[WarKitty]

....Yeah. Gonna agree with Coidzor here. A lot of the problem is that we're working with really vague terms that mean different things to different people.

[Quincunx]

"Need to hear". What a parlous phrase. You need to hear what I, and just about everyone else between my posts and yours, are saying about healthy relationships, but it seems you'll only hear it from your partner in the wake of a relationship collapsed under the unfair burden of baggage. I don't owe your future partner anything, so why am I trying to ease that life?

[WarKitty]

"Need to hear". What a parlous phrase. You need to hear what I, and just about everyone else between my posts and yours, are saying about healthy relationships, but it seems you'll only hear it from your partner in the wake of a relationship collapsed under the unfair burden of baggage. I don't owe your future partner anything, so why am I trying to ease that life?

That part wasn't talking about relationships, just dealing with people in general. It just spills over into relationships because I *am* an activist, and any relationship has to work with that. And that was why I made my previous comment:


This is a big issue. How do you handle being dissatisfied with society while avoiding being arrogant? How do you stand up and say "this is wrong and needs to change" without saying you're the only one awake enough to realize it?

Yes, it has a danger in it. But that danger is inherent in trying to fix anything. You can't be an activist or believe in social reform without running that risk.

Edit: I'm not saying you should expect your partner to solve your problems for you. Or even that in some cases it might be a better idea to fix some things in your life before moving on. What I'm saying is, in my experience, a lot of people say they don't want to deal with baggage because they don't want to deal with someone that openly acknowledges problems. They'd rather have them hidden away where they never have to look at them.

[Coidzor]

Problems, they be, ah... boner killing, to put into the crass vernacular.

So it's more the problems being a deterrent to becoming emotionally invested to begin with, really. Acting as a literal barrier to the conceptualization of others as people by pulling up a type to compete with and generally lose to.

The more emotionally charged or unfamiliar or inaccessible to the lexicon of dealing with the problems/condition/what have you is, the more dehumanizing encountering it before establishing a personal relationship it is.

Like recovering victim of abuse, to most people, IIRC, this is basically a "ok... what do I do with this strange, intimidating through its unfamiliarity and/or fragility/????ness creature so that I don't end up looking like a complete monster or butt to my peers?" sort of thing if they don't already care about the individual.

Outside of a certain subset, most of them are things that are not really fitting conversation topics for someone you'd consider trying to become intimate with.

I'm sort of confused as to the actual stances being argued versus the stances being argued against.

[WarKitty]

Problems, they be, ah... boner killing, to put into the crass vernacular.

So it's more the problems being a deterrent to becoming emotionally invested to begin with, really. Acting as a literal barrier to the conceptualization of others as people by pulling up a type to compete with and generally lose to.

The more emotionally charged or unfamiliar or inaccessible to the lexicon of dealing with the problems/condition/what have you is, the more dehumanizing encountering it before establishing a personal relationship it is.

Like recovering victim of abuse, to most people, IIRC, this is basically a "ok... what do I do with this strange, intimidating through its unfamiliarity and/or fragility/????ness creature so that I don't end up looking like a complete monster or butt to my peers?" sort of thing if they don't already care about the individual.

Which ironically is part of my complaint. These problems end up being labeled "baggage" by definition, no matter how the person is dealing with or has dealt with them. If other people know about a history of abuse or something, that frequently overwhelms everything else they see or know about the person.


I'm sort of confused as to the actual stances being argued versus the stances being argued against.

So am I...I have a feeling we may be agreeing on more than we think we are.

[Syka]

By 'baggage' I meant something the person wasn't actively dealing with but expected to be catered to because of it.

Ex had baggage. I still don't entirely know what from and I'm not sure his family situation explained it all. It was pretty icky. Anger issues and all that, but refused to seek any help (at least when we were together...may have changed (I hope) in the last 4 years).

I had issues with a certain physical, intimate activity. It was rough, it took a toll on both Oz and I, but I was aware of the issue and actively working toward solving it. Same with my jealousy stuff. I had insecurities, and he helped me by compromising on some stuff, but I recognized my responsibility in moving past and limiting how much it affected him.


You don't sound like you have baggage, at least by my definition. You just sound like someone whose been through a tough time and come out the stronger for it, and that is admirable. It may not be entirely "gotten over" and may never be, but you don't seem to have let that stop you in trying to let it have as little impact on what you do as possible.

Issues still being there =/= baggage to me. Issues not being dealt with, do.

[snoopy13a]

So what exactly are we considering mature? I find among the people I know the darker types are typically more towards what I consider mature, while the brighter ones are the ones that want to deal with problems by covering their ears and shouting "lalalalala" at the top of their lungs.

Maturity is the ability to deal with the ebbs and flows of everyday life. It means being able to handle your responsibilities and your personal relationships in an adult manner.

[Sipex]

Maturity is the ability to deal with the ebbs and flows of everyday life. It means being able to handle your responsibilities and your personal relationships in an adult manner.

This.

Personality doesn't dictate maturity.

[snoopy13a]

Which ironically is part of my complaint. These problems end up being labeled "baggage" by definition, no matter how the person is dealing with or has dealt with them. If other people know about a history of abuse or something, that frequently overwhelms everything else they see or know about the person.



You're right and it is absolutely unfair and unjust that victims of abuse suffer for things that they aren't responsible for and often, had no control over.

My advise is not to bring up your history until later in the relationship when you've begun to develop a bond with the other person. Once they've started to care about you and developed feelings for you then they'll be more understanding and supportive.

[Morph Bark]

Well, first off I've never seen "dark" and "happy" as necessarily in opposition, so there is that. I guess many of the bright/happy people I know fall into the category of "spoiled rich kid that's never had to worry about anything worse than a bad grade." I'm a campus rape activist; I consider part of my job to remind people that bad things do happen. I'm very outspoken about my own past because I think it's something people need to hear - not that they need to hear it about me as a person specifically, but they need to hear that there's a relatively "normal" person who's been through those things. And guess what? I'm still here, I'm still getting through school, playing D&D, and basically having a normal student life.

Minus the spoiled and rich part, I suppose that is what describes me, though of course in that category there are still a lot of differences between people.

I know there is a lot of bad stuff that goes on in the world and that perhaps I shouldn't ignore it. But it is not my duty to go out of my way to fix these things for other people - by which I mean that if I don't know where the problem is and even if I do and it is out of my reach, then I won't go out of my way to deal with it. If a friend of mine has a problem, I give them advice and talk to them, because they seem to think I've got some sense of wisdom that gives them a refreshing view on things. I'll gladly offer a helping hand or word to people around me, because I know I don't got it rough and even if it gets rough at some point, I hope those people whom I've helped will provide me with a helping hand or word.

Recently I went to a special meeting where a woman in her 50s talked about her past involving tons of mental abuse during childhood, eating disorders, a truckload of trust issues and being afraid of relationships with people because she fears it will all be over if she is not reassured over and over. It was different for me to hear about that in person, even though I knew a lot of crap can happen to just about anybody, even "normal" people or good folks you know. But if someone talks to me of such problems while I hadn't asked for it I would've been less interested, and if they would've kept talking after I showed that I didn't want to talk about such things, I would either think they're desperately looking for attention or just looking to annoy me. Sure, it may not be what they're trying to do, but what someone tries to do and what they seem like they are trying to do are two very different things.

Which is why the most important part of a relationship is communication. And if someone doesn't use that, it no longer matters if they're sensitive or dark, because they've already failed.


EDIT: Oh, and considering I only quoted WarKitty here, I don't merely mean this to adress you, but just in general. If any of this seems somehow offensive, sorry, I did not mean it to be.

...because lord knows I can be bad at communication myself sometimes.

[Karoht]

I prefer girls with Int and Cha and maybe Wis as their primary stats rather than their dump stats. Take that however you want in relation to the topic.


Personality doesn't dictate maturity.Exactly. Because I'm a silly, laughy kind of guy, that doesn't mean I am immature.
Unless I laugh at silly and immature things.

[Morph Bark]

Exactly. Because I'm a silly, laughy kind of guy, that doesn't mean I am immature.
Unless I laugh at silly and immature things.

Ditto. It's just so that in general, silliness can lighten the mood, which is good, but you also need to know how to be serious and handle a situation with discretion.

And hey, everyone likes a laugh. It's healthy. :smallwink:

[Sipex]

I prefer girls with Int and Cha and maybe Wis as their primary stats rather than their dump stats. Take that however you want in relation to the topic.

Exactly. Because I'm a silly, laughy kind of guy, that doesn't mean I am immature.
Unless I laugh at silly and immature things.

Hey, I laugh at silly and immature things.

Maturity which matters comes up when you can show the distinction of when it's good to laugh and when things need to be taken seriously.

Also, WarKitty, I understand your experience was horrid and you're working on dealing with it but you need to be careful that you don't become jaded to the plights of others for things that you would see as minor now simply because they haven't had anything horrid happen to them in their lives.

It can be a major disconnect between victims of serious crimes and those fortunate enough not to have experienced them. It could also be a reason people might deem you undatable to be fair. Nobody wants to be with a partner who's going to tell them their problems are nothing.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Well, first off I've never seen "dark" and "happy" as necessarily in opposition, so there is that. I guess many of the bright/happy people I know fall into the category of "spoiled rich kid that's never had to worry about anything worse than a bad grade." I'm a campus rape activist; I consider part of my job to remind people that bad things do happen. I'm very outspoken about my own past because I think it's something people need to hear - not that they need to hear it about me as a person specifically, but they need to hear that there's a relatively "normal" person who's been through those things. And guess what? I'm still here, I'm still getting through school, playing D&D, and basically having a normal student life.

I'm happy, and I considering myself not to be dark, personality-wise. I'm an open book, and my family is far from rich. I guess some people might call me spoiled, especially in my current relationship :smalltongue:

I've been raped and beaten in previous relationships. My mother physically abused me.
Nobody needs to know that, unless I particularly feel like sharing. Its my personal past, and something I've moved on from. It doesn't define me or my actions. I have created my life to be what I want it to be, inspite of that. I didn't want to be hurt my whole life. I didn't want to carry around scars.
The situation wasn't my fault, so why should I have to hurt forever?
Infact, since you're the activist, you're likely to know 1 in 4 women in the US have been raped, and most of them will never tell you. I can't remember the stats for men off the top of my head, but its like 1 in 6 or something
Its a dangerous world and we all know it. We live in it. But we shouldn't let our past experiences, or the possibility of such things, control who we are as people.

So, I won't let it control my relationships. And maybe its unfair, but I expect the same out of my romantic partner.
Don't put on me the weight of what someone else did to you. I'm not them- its not fair to me.
This isn't to say "Don't tell me". If I were in a relationship with someone, and they felt they needed to confide in me that such a thing happened, I'm more than willing to listen and know.
I just don't want it ruling our relationship.

[Starbuck_II]

Which ironically is part of my complaint. These problems end up being labeled "baggage" by definition, no matter how the person is dealing with or has dealt with them. If other people know about a history of abuse or something, that frequently overwhelms everything else they see or know about the person.


Well, in a relationship if you have "something from past that you care still carrying" that equals baggage because baggage is stuff you care from before.
Usually for trips, but not limited to that.

So yeah, I can see why it would be labled as such.

In truth, everyone has baggage, but the question is have you properly emptied the suitcase or still mentally on same trip.

Live in the present or the future, never the past. Although, there are moments when past is returning: deal with it when you have to not all the time.

Abused people usually sterotyped as too much baggage because there are a lot of people who haven't really "unpacked". They just try to somber on as if nothing happened.

[Morph Bark]

Live in the present or the future, never the past. Although, there are moments when past is returning: deal with it when you have to not all the time.

"A person who keeps one eye on the past is blind in one eye. A person who keeps two eyes on the past is blind. A person who keeps two eyes on the future forgets to learn from past mistakes."

[CrimsonAngel]

I prefer to hang out with people with a lot of sarcasm and dark humor, since I tend to use it myself all the time. However, I can't stand people who can't take care of themselves and sit around feeling sorry for themselves all the time because of some dark things in their past. Goths can be sexy though, as long as it's not taken too far.

Also, this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrmOTkcfZgA) is very relevant. Just hang in there, he starts singing after about a minute or so.

mmm, dark humor. :smallamused:


also, does anyone know the name of that song.. it's like a japanese girl singing about being psychopathic and wearing other people's skin or something. Some of the lyrics talk about how hard it is to make friends.

[ThunderCat]

So, I won't let it control my relationships. And maybe its unfair, but I expect the same out of my romantic partner.
Don't put on me the weight of what someone else did to you. I'm not them- its not fair to me.
This isn't to say "Don't tell me". If I were in a relationship with someone, and they felt they needed to confide in me that such a thing happened, I'm more than willing to listen and know.
I just don't want it ruling our relationship.This is funny (or perhaps curious is a better word), because I've come to the conclusion that specifically avoiding talking about something is, in a way, letting it rule you. It's a bit like always doing the opposite of what people tell you to do, and then declare yourself free because of it, when in truth, you're letting them dictate your actions just as surely as if you'd simply obeyed.

I've seen plenty of people talk about violence in different contexts, like getting robbed or being stationed in a war zone, but as soon as it's 'personal', you're forbidden to categorise it as one (bad) experience among many, it's somehow supposed to be special and untouchable, and you have to keep it away from others. And that makes it much more powerful than it has to be.

When I got abused, what bothered me most was that so few people were willing to recognise it, talk about it, and do something about it. If my boyfriend had done to one of his friends what he did to me, people would have talked, and not just privately. They would have asked the victim if s/he wanted them to do something, they would have discussed if he should even be welcome any more, and they certainly wouldn't have blamed anyone for being upset over it. But because it's in a relationship, it's suddenly your responsibility to make sure nobody ever gets confronted with what another person in their own social circle did.

I say screw that. As you said, it's normal, both for women and men. And if we don't talk about it, people will keep pretending it's not a big problem, not something which affects people's everyday lives, and which we at least need to consider. Heck, a lot of girls and women live their everyday lives with the consideration that their new boyfriend/one-night-stand/guy hitting on them is a potential rapist/batterer/murder, and they take various precautions because of it, but somehow, that rarely seem to show up when people talk about dating, despite being a completely normal part of that activity.

In fact, when it is finally mentioned, you can expect the conversation to turn into a lament for the poor men who have to deal with these paranoid man-hating females who blame them for a behaviour they have absolutely nothing to do with (of course, when a woman actually is battered, murdered, or raped, you can then expect people to blame her for not doing enough to prevent it). Imo, nothing good comes from hiding what happened, and accepting responsibility for keeping from other adults is basically just taking on an extra burden someone else loaded onto your back. And in my book, that's one of the heaviest kinds of baggage.

[Moff Chumley]

Maturity is the ability to deal with the ebbs and flows of everyday life. It means being able to handle your responsibilities and your personal relationships in an adult manner.

Agreed. I'd extend this to accepting and embracing your responsibilities, but for the most part, agreed.

[The Antagonist]

When I got abused, what bothered me most was that so few people were willing to recognise it, talk about it, and do something about it. If my boyfriend had done to one of his friends what he did to me, people would have talked, and not just privately. They would have asked the victim if s/he wanted them to do something, they would have discussed if he should even be welcome any more, and they certainly wouldn't have blamed anyone for being upset over it. But because it's in a relationship, it's suddenly your responsibility to make sure nobody ever gets confronted with what another person in their own social circle did.

I say screw that. As you said, it's normal, both for women and men. And if we don't talk about it, people will keep pretending it's not a big problem, not something which affects people's everyday lives, and which we at least need to consider. Heck, a lot of girls and women live their everyday lives with the consideration that their new boyfriend/one-night-stand/guy hitting on them is a potential rapist/batterer/murder, and they take various precautions because of it, but somehow, that rarely seem to show up when people talk about dating, despite being a completely normal part of that activity.


I think that really has more to do with the fact that nobody knows what to say. Most people have the ability to recognize those things, but most of us have no clue what to do to help, and fear that trying will only make the situation worse. Perhaps it wasn't the inability to recognize and help with the problem; rather, no one wanted to get involved due to various fears, be it fear of making the situation worse or hurting themselves or whathaveyou.

Also, and call me heartless for saying this if you must, but it's really bothersome when someone starts bringing up abuse and trauma in their lives or relationships. I tend to lose respect for the person that talks about how they've been abused all the time, or even just occasionally, because it seems like they're just trying to get attention - probably another reason why nobody ever really "recognizes" the issue, if I may use that word. Yeah, I've been abused in the past by would-be lovers. I don't go around telling my story to/looking for help in others that probably don't care to begin with, because, well, I know they probably don't care, I know it'd frustrate them, and I know that it makes them really uncomfortable. I go to a therapist, or perhaps a friend who asks me themselves what's wrong and asks me to let them help. It just really isn't a good idea to go telling stories of personal abuse to others.


In fact, when it is finally mentioned, you can expect the conversation to turn into a lament for the poor men who have to deal with these paranoid man-hating females who blame them for a behaviour they have absolutely nothing to do with (of course, when a woman actually is battered, murdered, or raped, you can then expect people to blame her for not doing enough to prevent it). Imo, nothing good comes from hiding what happened, and accepting responsibility for keeping from other adults is basically just taking on an extra burden someone else loaded onto your back. And in my book, that's one of the heaviest kinds of baggage.

Personally, I do feel worse for the "poor men", because it's somewhat irrational - understandable, yes, but irrational - for a woman to hate the entire male gender because she was abused by a man. Hating one group of people is ridiculous when it was only an individual or individuals that caused the damage. Hell, just because I've been abused by a man doesn't mean I now hate men - I just hate the one man who hurt me.

And, yes, though it is extremely important to get help and talk openly about things like abuse and to not suppress the emotions, it's best to seek PROFESSIONAL help and not dump your issues on the closest humans to you, friends and family alike.


Also, I've never heard anyone blame a woman for being raped, and anyone who does such a thing really doesn't deserve to be paid attention to :smallannoyed:

[ThunderCat]

I think that really has more to do with the fact that nobody knows what to say. Most people have the ability to recognize those things, but most of us have no clue what to do to help, and fear that trying will only make the situation worse. And I believe one of the biggest reasons few people know what to do is that we don't talk about it in the first place.


Also, and call me heartless for saying this if you must, but it's really bothersome when someone starts bringing up abuse and trauma in their lives or relationships. I tend to lose respect for the person that talks about how they've been abused all the time, or even just occasionally, because it seems like they're just trying to get attention - probably another reason why nobody ever really "recognizes" the issue, if I may use that word. I treat it as everything else in my past, nothing more, nothing less. If a situation arises in which it is relevant, I talk about it. Several people I've been relatively intimate with don't know, and others I've been less close to do, just like with a lot of other things in my life. Sometimes it's a relevant part of whatever subject we're discussing, other times it's not. It doesn't deserve to get treated as anything more important than that.


Personally, I do feel worse for the "poor men", because it's somewhat irrational - understandable, yes, but irrational - for a woman to hate the entire male gender because she was abused by a man. Except there was absolutely nothing in what I said which suggested it was about hating men, merely about being precautious. I'm not pyrophobic just because I install a smoke alarm in my house, hydrophobic because I wear a life jacket on a boat, or afraid of my own body just because I get it checked for cancer. It's just a precaution, and at my age, the risk of dying or getting seriously hurt because of gender related violence is as big, or bigger, than most of the other threats I'm taking steps to protect myself from. So I really can't see why it's bad or misandrist to take precautions in which kind of male company you keep.

Honestly, I don't think women could ever get away with suggesting universal misogyny on behalf of a man who gets nervous around women because his ex screwed him over, so I don't think it's fair that men do either. If things are even, it should mean that I shouldn't have to deal with people's issues about domestic violence either. That is, if some people like to pretend it doesn't exist, and want their SO to shelter them from it, they can't at the same time claim that they're the ones who don't make demands and don't have any baggage and special needs. Because they obviously do.

The guy I'm currently dating don't have that issue. He knows I was in a violent relationship, he knows that part of my current personality and behaviour is affected by it, just as it's affected by all my other experiences, good or bad, and he doesn't consider it a huge deal. I have my past, he has his past, we've both gotten through hard times and moved on, but we don't pretend they didn't happen. I can understand not expecting people to show up at 2 AM 3 times a week, and not turning every conversation into a monologue about how you've suffered, but I don't think I could ever date a guy who proudly stated that since he had never had significantly negative/traumatising experiences, he expected everybody around him to watch their tongue, lest they victimise him by loading all that horrible 'baggage' on him. I guess I need someone little less hypersensitive, and a little more robust.


Also, I've never heard anyone blame a woman for being raped, and anyone who does such a thing really doesn't deserve to be paid attention to :smallannoyed: Good for you, but it's pretty hard to ignore when such people make up a significant part (depending on your definition, even the majority) of the population.

[Trog]

This is funny (or perhaps curious is a better word), because I've come to the conclusion that specifically avoiding talking about something is, in a way, letting it rule you. It's a bit like always doing the opposite of what people tell you to do, and then declare yourself free because of it, when in truth, you're letting them dictate your actions just as surely as if you'd simply obeyed.
You know I'd disagree with this (though, of course, you are entitled to your opinion). Each individual can decide for themselves whether or not to avoid talking about something and just because someone chooses not to talk about something it doesn't mean the motivation to do so is automatically letting something rule you.

Sometimes to get past something it's good to have distance. Especially if you have, say, already talked to enough people about what has happened to you to feel as if you have "put it out there" and have already dealt with it. After that point I can see why someone would choose to put it behind them and not want to talk about it. It would be getting on with one's life and choosing what to focus on in the future. "Your focus determines your reality" as a Jedi once said, and by focusing your attention on the positive in your life rather than choosing to rehash the negative over and over again you move more into the light.

[ThunderCat]

You know I'd disagree with this (though, of course, you are entitled to your opinion). Each individual can decide for themselves whether or not to avoid talking about something and just because someone chooses not to talk about something it doesn't mean the motivation to do so is automatically letting something rule you.

Sometimes to get past something it's good to have distance. Especially if you have, say, already talked to enough people about what has happened to you to feel as if you have "put it out there" and have already dealt with it. After that point I can see why someone would choose to put it behind them and not want to talk about it. It would be getting on with one's life and choosing what to focus on in the future. "Your focus determines your reality" as a Jedi once said, and by focusing your attention on the positive in your life rather than choosing to rehash the negative over and over again you move more into the light.Well, if you need the distance so bad, that sort of indicates you haven't gotten past it. And that's OK of course, I don't expect everybody (or even most people) to just get over it. But it's still a trauma. I have had things in my life I couldn't discuss without getting upset, and then, after a while, it stopped. I still remembered it as a bad experience, I was still more motivated to oppose or avoid similar situations than with things I didn't have personal experiences with, but I wasn't reliving it every time it was brought up. I had gotten past it. And then there are things I can still get upset over, and maybe I'll get past them and maybe I wont, but they're definitely fresh and emotional. I'll sometimes avoid confronting myself with the latter because it's painful, but I see no reason to avoid the former because they just don't have the same sting any more.

I didn't mean to suggest anyone was wrong in the way they handled it, I merely thought it was a funny perspective that deliberately hiding something meant it wasn't baggage. To me, it's the other way around. If I can talk about something as if it was normal, even when it isn't, it means it's gone from being a trauma to just a memory. If I can't, whether I choose to just avoid it or to spill my heart out to anyone who wants to listen to me, it means it's not merely a part of my past (yet). Of course people are different, and they should be, but there's a difference between handling things your way, and blaming others for the way they handle theirs, such as by implying that they let it control them because they don't constantly avoid it.

[The Antagonist]

I treat it as everything else in my past, nothing more, nothing less. If a situation arises in which it is relevant, I talk about it. Several people I've been relatively intimate with don't know, and others I've been less close to do, just like with a lot of other things in my life. Sometimes it's a relevant part of whatever subject we're discussing, other times it's not. It doesn't deserve to get treated as anything more important than that.

In that case, why did you say you were bothered by how people didn't have anything to say?

Unfortunately, some things we can't treat like everything else that has happened to us. You need to keep in mind certain things affect others differently than they may affect you. Just because you see something as just another life experience doesn't mean everyone else does. Your story might drive someone to insanity, and if they don't want to talk about it, you shouldn't make them, nor should you think down about them for their decision.




Except there was absolutely nothing in what I said which suggested it was about hating men, merely about being precautious. I'm not pyrophobic just because I install a smoke alarm in my house, hydrophobic because I wear a life jacket on a boat, or afraid of my own body just because I get it checked for cancer. It's just a precaution, and at my age, the risk of dying or getting seriously hurt because of gender related violence is as big, or bigger, than most of the other threats I'm taking steps to protect myself from. So I really can't see why it's bad or misandrist to take precautions in which kind of male company you keep.

That's actually extremely different and doesn't really fit as an example of what I was saying. I'm saying more along the lines of, if you choke on water, it's irrational to fear all water for the rest of your life. If you get burned, it's irrational to fear all sources of heat. Same with if you're hurt by a man - it's irrational to fear all men. Sure, take precautions, but there's no need to completely hate them all. And, same goes for a man whose life was supposedly ruined by a woman. He shouldn't hate women for the rest of his existence.


The guy I'm currently dating don't have that issue. He knows I was in a violent relationship, he knows that part of my current personality and behaviour is affected by it, just as it's affected by all my other experiences, good or bad, and he doesn't consider it a huge deal. I have my past, he has his past, we've both gotten through hard times and moved on, but we don't pretend they didn't happen. I can understand not expecting people to show up at 2 AM 3 times a week, and not turning every conversation into a monologue about how you've suffered, but I don't think I could ever date a guy who proudly stated that since he had never had significantly negative/traumatising experiences, he expected everybody around him to watch their tongue, lest they victimise him by loading all that horrible 'baggage' on him. I guess I need someone little less hypersensitive, and a little more robust.

I just ignore the topics alltogether. It's my own problem if I've been abused, and I don't feel it's necessary for me to talk to my boyfriend about abuse I may have experienced in the past. If he asked, I'd tell him, but I'm not going to just bring it up randomly, even if it would fit in a conversation.

People definitely should be able to listen to stories of trauma without holding their ears and screaming for the noise to stop - of course. In fact, I think it's extremely important in a relationship for the people involved to be able to discuss these sorts of things with each other and help each other out, if it is necessary, and it's often easier to discuss these sorts of painful experiences with those we love most. However, if they don't want to hear it, I think it's also hugely important that you be respectful of their wishes and hold your tongue.

[Trog]

Well, if you need the distance so bad, that sort of indicates you haven't gotten past it.
Now if you need the distance badly then, yeah... you probably haven't gotten past it.

But if you have gotten past it, I don't see where it is anyone's place to tell you you haven't just because you choose not to share your experience(s). Choosing to draw lines to say "I just don't want to talk about such and such" doesn't necessarily mean that it somehow secretly runs you. You could go on about past relationships and traumas you've already dealt with to your satisfaction whenever someone asks or whenever it occurs to you from time to time but... uh... why bother? :smallconfused:

Better to put stuff behind you and just move on, I say.

[ThunderCat]

In that case, why did you say you were bothered by how people didn't have anything to say?I'm not sure what you're referring to, but in the actual situation, where the conflict was still going and the wounds were still raw and fresh, it did bother me that I felt I got an extra burden in addition to being abused. Like it wasn't enough that I had to deal with it with very little support, I also had to take everybody else's feelings into consideration, even though they rarely returned the favour, because if I didn't, they would just get upset I was taking 'my' issue out on them. And in general, even if it's just one issue out of many for me (like war, poverty, and 'normal' crimes), it becomes a lot bigger because people treat it like a taboo. I would accept it in a heartbeat if a veteran didn't want to talk about war, but I don't think the public in general has an obligation to avoid that subject, quite the contrary. The same goes for other issues.


Unfortunately, some things we can't treat like everything else that has happened to us. You need to keep in mind certain things affect others differently than they may affect you. Just because you see something as just another life experience doesn't mean everyone else does. Your story might drive someone to insanity, and if they don't want to talk about it, you shouldn't make them, nor should you think down about them for their decision.That's a fair perspective on it. But what WarKitty brought up is that people avoid dating those with 'issues', so to speak, and blamed the victims for being traumatised rather than admitting they couldn't deal with it. There seem to be trend of people saying that they aren't traumatised themselves, and thus, they don't want people who are to talk about it. I'd say that people who need others to avoid certain subjects have issues themselves. And just to make it clear, I don't think someone is wrong for having issues, and I think the current trend with people 'refusing' to be a victim, as if it was a choice, and blaming actual victims, is both silly and sad


That's actually extremely different and doesn't really fit as an example of what I was saying. I'm saying more along the lines of, if you choke on water, it's irrational to fear all water for the rest of your life. If you get burned, it's irrational to fear all sources of heat. Same with if you're hurt by a man - it's irrational to fear all men. Sure, take precautions, but there's no need to completely hate them all. And, same goes for a man whose life was supposedly ruined by a woman. He shouldn't hate women for the rest of his existence.Well, your example didn't fit my example, and my example came first :smalltongue: This is getting off topic, but let me just clarify: What I meant is that things like taking precautions are a normal part of many people's (especially women's) dating routine, and yet, people are expected not to bring it up. Or at least, they're expected to never do anything that could possibly remind anyone that the people who make these precautions necessary are often fairly normal. It's no problem getting a guy to walk you home to protect you against the bogeymen of the night, but it's a lot harder to get him to accept that you're not safe with him walking you home, even though the latter is more statistically plausible.

And if it's brought up, it's usually almost immediately turned into an issue of male victimisation. As in, if she feels she has to be careful about letting a guy she met recently walk her home, the important part is not that she's afraid, but that some poor guy didn't get to walk her home. Whether or not the fear is well founded is one thing (and if people actually spoke more regularly about these things, instead of using them as cheap (and disturbingly arousing) thrills in fiction, perhaps they'd stop being so scary), but blaming her for being cautious is unfair, and to furthermore dismiss or ignore the reasons for her caution is just adding insult to injury. In my opinion at least.


I just ignore the topics alltogether. It's my own problem if I've been abused, and I don't feel it's necessary for me to talk to my boyfriend about abuse I may have experienced in the past. If he asked, I'd tell him, but I'm not going to just bring it up randomly, even if it would fit in a conversation.

People definitely should be able to listen to stories of trauma without holding their ears and screaming for the noise to stop - of course. In fact, I think it's extremely important in a relationship for the people involved to be able to discuss these sorts of things with each other and help each other out, if it is necessary, and it's often easier to discuss these sorts of painful experiences with those we love most. However, if they don't want to hear it, I think it's also hugely important that you be respectful of their wishes and hold your tongue. Of course. Most people have sore spots, and different limits to what they can take. I was so angry with the government here at one point that I had to ask my boyfriend to stop talking about politics. But that's the difference between "I can't handle this particular issue" and "you're undatable because you've got baggage" which I believe WarKitty mentioned. To me, people who want me to shelter them from certain issues can be just as potentially demanding as people who ask me to deal with them, it's all about finding the right balance.

[The Antagonist]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but in the actual situation, where the conflict was still going and the wounds were still raw and fresh, it did bother me that I felt I got an extra burden in addition to being abused. Like it wasn't enough that I had to deal with it with very little support, I also had to take everybody else's feelings into consideration, even though they rarely returned the favour, because if I didn't, they would just get upset I was taking 'my' issue out on them. And in general, even if it's just one issue out of many for me (like war, poverty, and 'normal' crimes), it becomes a lot bigger because people treat it like a taboo. I would accept it in a heartbeat if a veteran didn't want to talk about war, but I don't think the public in general has an obligation to avoid that subject, quite the contrary. The same goes for other issues.

But that is somehwat selfish... It sounds to me like you're saying, "I have to deal with my emotions AND still consider others? This is ridiculous!" You gotta not be focused only on yourself, even in times of great pain and suffering on your part.

This is why we have therapists. So you don't have to take out your issues on others.

Also, don't expect sympathy from everyone. It's extremely unhealthy and damaging, or so I've found. Because, reallly, most people go into one of two groups: 1) the people who don't care, and 2) the people who don't want to get involved. If you need to talk to someone, talk to a shrink or someone who maybe wants to help - don't just expect to get support from everyone and then get depressed or shocked if they don't respond. People aren't very sympathetic these days.

...This argument is extremely circuitous. I hope you get what I'm trying to say...


That's a fair perspective on it. But what WarKitty brought up is that people avoid dating those with 'issues', so to speak, and blamed the victims for being traumatised rather than admitting they couldn't deal with it. There seem to be trend of people saying that they aren't traumatised themselves, and thus, they don't want people who are to talk about it. I'd say that people who need others to avoid certain subjects have issues themselves. And just to make it clear, I don't think someone is wrong for having issues, and I think the current trend with people 'refusing' to be a victim, as if it was a choice, and blaming actual victims, is both silly and sad


I get what you're saying. But, again, I'll say what I (think I) said before: if someone isn't willing to look into the heart and core of a person, beyond the "issues", then they don't deserve that person for their truest, most beautiful self. Really, why would you want someone who doesn't even want to see byond your flaws? Especially when it comes to trauma. Why stick yourself with someone with no sympathy towards you? In a way, this sort of heartlessness helps to weed out the people we should avoid, especially in the relationship world.


To everything else, though: fair 'nuff. I understand what you're saying.

[Moff Chumley]

Don't see what "these days" has to do with anything. :smallconfused:

[The Antagonist]

Don't see what "these days" has to do with anything. :smallconfused:

Fair point. Lemme rephrase:

PEOPLE AREN'T SYMPATHETIC. Typically.

[druid91]

As far as goths, I still hold them up to the standard of one of my friends growing up. Do they dress in a stylish mostly black? Do they have a somewhat morbid and dark sense of humor? Do they tend to speak somewhat formally without losing the informal feel? And lastly, do they NOT have all that "Life is pain" mindset craziness?

IF so then they can be called goth in my books.I do not mean offense to anyone, just my 2 CP

[RabbitHoleLost]

This is funny (or perhaps curious is a better word), because I've come to the conclusion that specifically avoiding talking about something is, in a way, letting it rule you. It's a bit like always doing the opposite of what people tell you to do, and then declare yourself free because of it, when in truth, you're letting them dictate your actions just as surely as if you'd simply obeyed.

I've seen plenty of people talk about violence in different contexts, like getting robbed or being stationed in a war zone, but as soon as it's 'personal', you're forbidden to categorise it as one (bad) experience among many, it's somehow supposed to be special and untouchable, and you have to keep it away from others. And that makes it much more powerful than it has to be.

When I got abused, what bothered me most was that so few people were willing to recognise it, talk about it, and do something about it. If my boyfriend had done to one of his friends what he did to me, people would have talked, and not just privately. They would have asked the victim if s/he wanted them to do something, they would have discussed if he should even be welcome any more, and they certainly wouldn't have blamed anyone for being upset over it. But because it's in a relationship, it's suddenly your responsibility to make sure nobody ever gets confronted with what another person in their own social circle did.

I say screw that. As you said, it's normal, both for women and men. And if we don't talk about it, people will keep pretending it's not a big problem, not something which affects people's everyday lives, and which we at least need to consider. Heck, a lot of girls and women live their everyday lives with the consideration that their new boyfriend/one-night-stand/guy hitting on them is a potential rapist/batterer/murder, and they take various precautions because of it, but somehow, that rarely seem to show up when people talk about dating, despite being a completely normal part of that activity.

In fact, when it is finally mentioned, you can expect the conversation to turn into a lament for the poor men who have to deal with these paranoid man-hating females who blame them for a behaviour they have absolutely nothing to do with (of course, when a woman actually is battered, murdered, or raped, you can then expect people to blame her for not doing enough to prevent it). Imo, nothing good comes from hiding what happened, and accepting responsibility for keeping from other adults is basically just taking on an extra burden someone else loaded onto your back. And in my book, that's one of the heaviest kinds of baggage.

:: shrugs:: I've spoken about it at length in the past so that I feel satisfied. I realized the situation wasn't my fault, and I realized why the man did it, and I forgave him.
I don't blame men, I don't blame myself.
I forget most of the time that my mother existed, so its not something I feel hurt over.

Furthermore, I don't avoid talking about it. I mean, my current relationship (with someone who's actually already posted on the topic :smalltongue:) knows it happened. But it wasn't something I felt pressed to bring up, or that I felt needed to come up in conversation.
It just happened.

I don't let it rule me. It doesn't occupy my thoughts very often at all anymore. I have defeated that dark part of me, and I live in peace with myself about it.
I won't lie, though. It took a lot, and I ruined a lot of relationships in my inability to move on, for some time, and I couldn't figure out why.
Not until I was in a relationship with someone who had more baggage than me, and they threw it infront of them like a banner.
And then I realized, and I talked to people and I talked to myself.
And it healed over time.
Now its nothing but a scar that I hardly ever notice. Sometimes I tell people, most of the time I don't even think to.

And I'm happy :smallsmile:


Edit: Furthermore, I don't know where you live, but I've seen education on the situation everywhere. My highschool had this big rape awareness week every year, my college that I went to for one year had one with stuff and events all over the place, and even my career college had a required class everyone had to take about abuse.
There's movies and books and tv shows all over the place.
I really can't say that people are unaware or hiding it.

[Serpentine]

Also, and call me heartless for saying this if you must, but it's really bothersome when someone starts bringing up abuse and trauma in their lives or relationships. I tend to lose respect for the person that talks about how they've been abused all the time, or even just occasionally, because it seems like they're just trying to get attention - probably another reason why nobody ever really "recognizes" the issue, if I may use that word. Yeah, I've been abused in the past by would-be lovers. I don't go around telling my story to/looking for help in others that probably don't care to begin with, because, well, I know they probably don't care, I know it'd frustrate them, and I know that it makes them really uncomfortable. I go to a therapist, or perhaps a friend who asks me themselves what's wrong and asks me to let them help. It just really isn't a good idea to go telling stories of personal abuse to others.This is exactly the sort of thing ThunderCat was talking about - you're not allowed to discuss bad things that happened to you because it makes other people uncomfortable; my comfort is more important than giving them an opportunity to air and/or discuss events in their life; anyone who even mentions something bad is nothing but an attention-seeker. Yes, some people who bang on about things like that are attention-seekers or similar. That doesn't mean that you have any right to insist that a person keep their lives top-secret and to judge them for doing something that quite possible helps them to deal with it.
To put it another way: why do you think it's more healthy for someone to deal with a problem in secret, than to work through it openly?

Personally, I do feel worse for the "poor men", because it's somewhat irrational - understandable, yes, but irrational - for a woman to hate the entire male gender because she was abused by a man. Hating one group of people is ridiculous when it was only an individual or individuals that caused the damage. Hell, just because I've been abused by a man doesn't mean I now hate men - I just hate the one man who hurt me.She never said anything at all about "hating the entire male gender". She said "tak[ing] various precautions because of [the possibility that they might be bad]". Again, you are making yourself an excellent example of what she was talking about.

[Coidzor]

I prefer girls with Int and Cha and maybe Wis as their primary stats rather than their dump stats. Take that however you want in relation to the topic.

Really though, girls are MAD, because they gotta have a good CON score to survive pregnancy and avoid the built-in weakness to anemia, they need a decent DEX for, well, you know :smallwink:, CHA to attract someone's attention, INT to make it worth someone's while to pay attention to them, and can't afford to dump WIS because of all of the applications it has in relationships and money and life. Really, STR is the only thing they can even try to dump and can't even dump it that much.

Guys can generally get away with much more SAD builds, though dumping anything too much is inviting bad times in a big way.

[WarKitty]

:: shrugs:: I've spoken about it at length in the past so that I feel satisfied. I realized the situation wasn't my fault, and I realized why the man did it, and I forgave him.
I don't blame men, I don't blame myself.
I forget most of the time that my mother existed, so its not something I feel hurt over.

Furthermore, I don't avoid talking about it. I mean, my current relationship (with someone who's actually already posted on the topic :smalltongue:) knows it happened. But it wasn't something I felt pressed to bring up, or that I felt needed to come up in conversation.
It just happened.

I don't let it rule me. It doesn't occupy my thoughts very often at all anymore. I have defeated that dark part of me, and I live in peace with myself about it.
I won't lie, though. It took a lot, and I ruined a lot of relationships in my inability to move on, for some time, and I couldn't figure out why.
Not until I was in a relationship with someone who had more baggage than me, and they threw it infront of them like a banner.
And then I realized, and I talked to people and I talked to myself.
And it healed over time.
Now its nothing but a scar that I hardly ever notice. Sometimes I tell people, most of the time I don't even think to.

And I'm happy :smallsmile:


Edit: Furthermore, I don't know where you live, but I've seen education on the situation everywhere. My highschool had this big rape awareness week every year, my college that I went to for one year had one with stuff and events all over the place, and even my career college had a required class everyone had to take about abuse.
There's movies and books and tv shows all over the place.
I really can't say that people are unaware or hiding it.

You'd be surprised. I was 20 when I learned that date rape could happen without alcohol being involved.

[Serpentine]

Various comments from a number of football (various codes) players in Australia, as well as several surveys, also suggests otherwise.

[The Antagonist]

This is exactly the sort of thing ThunderCat was talking about - you're not allowed to discuss bad things that happened to you because it makes other people uncomfortable; my comfort is more important than giving them an opportunity to air and/or discuss events in their life; anyone who even mentions something bad is nothing but an attention-seeker. Yes, some people who bang on about things like that are attention-seekers or similar. That doesn't mean that you have any right to insist that a person keep their lives top-secret and to judge them for doing something that quite possible helps them to deal with it.
To put it another way: why do you think it's more healthy for someone to deal with a problem in secret, than to work through it openly?
She never said anything at all about "hating the entire male gender". She said "tak[ing] various precautions because of [the possibility that they might be bad]". Again, you are making yourself an excellent example of what she was talking about.


Ah, see, this is what I'm trying to say. OPENLY doesn't need to include every human being around you. It could be a therapist or friends who want to help.
Think of it this way: Would you rather bear the burden of your problems and also be somewhat rejected by people who don't care while also making them uncomfortable and maybe even miserable in the process, or seek professional and private therapy?

As for the second half, I must have just misunderstood then. When I read the sentence "man-hating females" I immediately thought that meant "women who hate all men".

[RabbitHoleLost]

You'd be surprised. I was 20 when I learned that date rape could happen without alcohol being involved.

O.o
Where do you live?
Because I'm in Oklahoma, and I was in Arkansas for that one year of University.
Oklahoma doesn't even have sex ed classes, but we had Abuse/Rape education.

[Coidzor]

O.o
Where do you live?
Because I'm in Oklahoma, and I was in Arkansas for that one year of University.
Oklahoma doesn't even have sex ed classes, but we had Abuse/Rape education.

Huh. That's a relative rarity as far as I know.

[Knaight]

Ah, see, this is what I'm trying to say. OPENLY doesn't need to include every human being around you. It could be a therapist or friends who want to help.

Sure, but sometimes you can deal with things on your own. In this particular case there needs to be a police report, but the idea that you need others to work you through any emotional trauma is ridiculous.

[The Antagonist]

...the idea that you need others to work you through any emotional trauma is ridiculous.

*headdesk* Not at all what I'm trying to say.

Fact is, most of us - maybe all of us - need outside help to get through the most traumatizing things that happen to us. The trouble is finding people who are willing to help and who can help, while not "dumping" your problem on people who don't care and/or may be hurt by it.

[Serpentine]

Being willing and able to discuss the event - not make that the only thing you ever talk about nor make it the basis of your entire personality*, but discuss it openly and without shame - can be part of the healing process, though. By saying "anyone who tells me about their problems has baggage and is therefore undatable", you are encouraging people to clam up about it and are denying them a method of healing.

*One of the most annoying people I know is known as "Hi I'm bipolar."
As for the second half, I must have just misunderstood then. When I read the sentence "man-hating females" I immediately thought that meant "women who hate all men".You have apparently missed the context:
Heck, a lot of girls and women live their everyday lives with the consideration that their new boyfriend/one-night-stand/guy hitting on them is a potential rapist/batterer/murder, and they take various precautions because of it, but somehow, that rarely seem to show up when people talk about dating, despite being a completely normal part of that activity.

In fact, when it is finally mentioned, you can expect the conversation to turn into a lament for the poor men who have to deal with these paranoid man-hating females who blame them for a behaviour they have absolutely nothing to do with (of course, when a woman actually is battered, murdered, or raped, you can then expect people to blame her for not doing enough to prevent it).She meant that the lamenters label the cautious women as "paranoid man-hating females", not that they actually are so.

[WarKitty]

O.o
Where do you live?
Because I'm in Oklahoma, and I was in Arkansas for that one year of University.
Oklahoma doesn't even have sex ed classes, but we had Abuse/Rape education.

Well I was homeschooled, although I've found the case is similar for various other backgrounds. Private school seems to be worse than public, but it's both. We had *something* called abuse education in freshman year college, but it was pretty much "don't drink, don't wear short skirts, don't be out after dark, and don't go home with strange men."

Knaight: Police reports working are actually a small minority of the cases. I never reported anything because I had no proof I hadn't consented, and frankly didn't know what had just happened till much later. About a year later actually.

As far as talking about it, there's two different things going on. One is that it does just come up sometimes. A lot of people know I took some time off from school; a lot of them ask why. And I tell them and prepare for the long awkward silence. And for some of them to not come back because they can't deal with it.

The other is active awareness. This is more of training people to deal with it. That tend to take the form of written material, lectures with chapel credit, etc. The whole purpose is to change people's view so it isn't any more awkward than, say, finding out someone has been mugged.

Edit: I'd also point out that getting decent therapy is frankly not something everyone gets the chance to do. I got a choice between "no therapy" and "crappy therapy."

[The Antagonist]

Being willing and able to discuss the event - not make that the only thing you ever talk about nor make it the basis of your entire personality*, but discuss it openly and without shame - can be part of the healing process, though. By saying "anyone who tells me about their problems has baggage and is therefore undatable", you are encouraging people to clam up about it and are denying them a method of healing.

*One of the most annoying people I know is known as "Hi I'm bipolar."

I can agree with that much. Having the ability is one thing, although - and I'm sure you somewhat agree - it is frustrating when everything a person talks about is their various issues and why they're so miserable and will never amount to anything. (Moff, don't you dare comment on this paragraph...)

I suppose I'm looking at this all the wrong way, but I'm trying to be somewhat neutral. I just don't think it's right to make others suffer because you're suffering; and sometimes, hearing others' problems makes you miserable. Yes, saying they don't want to talk about it is denying you a method of healing, I'm not disagreeing with that; I'm just pointing out the fact that it's sort of a lose-lose situation. Either you get something off your chest and heal while possibly making others depressed, or you keep it all inside and let others live their happy-happy lives. And, yes, that is somewhat of a gross exaggeration, but, you get what I'm saying (hopefully...)


You have apparently missed the context:She meant that the lamenters label the cautious women as "paranoid man-hating females", not that they actually are so.

My bad. I'm not too keen at dissecting text...

[Coidzor]

And I believe one of the biggest reasons few people know what to do is that we don't talk about it in the first place.

On the other hand, it's hard to know how to react to someone that one's initial thought would be to express sympathy and/or comfort to, but whom any kind of physical body language is instantly suspect to show around much less actually touch even their hand and making any kind of verbal show of sympathy seems like it'll either get one cussed out for being a patronizing ***** or result in a flood of even worse memories being dredged up and put out into the environment.

Essentially, all instinctual level reactions are inherently bad in the situation. And a combination of not wanting to deal with it on the part of authorities, bad communication channels so there's no one page for the disparate groups around the country to get on and communicate to the public, and the general cultural situation means there's no proscribed way of dealing with it. So there's no right way to react and every way your emotions or body would have you act is wrong and bad.

Sure, we could do with more familiarity with the situation, but there'd need to be some kind of change so that exposure wouldn't result in a shut down due to having a minefield of only potentially to certainly very bad ways to react with no indication of even a general way of how to diplomatically deal with it.

And no one likes being put into a situation where they can only do wrong. It tends to lead to resentment and discomfort.

Also, are we really arguing that to talk about having been abused regularly is letting it rule you versus not talking about it regularly is letting it rule you? :smallconfused:

[Quincunx]

Hands up everyone who, if this were a date, would have left already rather than sit through another hour of Discussing Power Politics Within Relationships Such As the One I'm Attempting to Start with You, and I Will Not Again be Forced Into a Position of Loss. *raise*

Hands up everyone who acknowledges that there may be a difference between power politics and baggage but who long ago has lost the will to care about the distinction or the carrier. *raise, redux*


O.o
Where do you live?
Because I'm in Oklahoma, and I was in Arkansas for that one year of University.
Oklahoma doesn't even have sex ed classes, but we had Abuse/Rape education.

It's curiously comforting, both that they didn't shirk all of their educational duties on that topic, and that you're able to have that kind of education without ever defining the problem (and by extension, making the definition of "he said/she said" dwindle into insignificance) and going straight to the repair work.

[Coidzor]

Hands up everyone who, if this were a date, would have left already rather than sit through another hour of Discussing Power Politics Within Relationships Such As the One I'm Attempting to Start with You, and I Will Not Again be Forced Into a Position of Loss. *raise*

Hands up everyone who acknowledges that there may be a difference between power politics and baggage but who long ago has lost the will to care about the distinction or the carrier. *raise, redux*

Indeed, there are easier and more pleasant routes to getting tail, after all...

[Quincunx]

Eh, at this point all I want is the possibility of peace within the relationship and not the echoes of the civil war. Tail would be a bonus. Drink? I'll buy the first round if it's at the hot chocolate shop. Costs near as much as the pub does, but worth it!

[Ponderthought]

Ill go with Dark if it equates to "Aggressive"

I like a girl I can argue with.

[ThunderCat]

But that is somehwat selfish... It sounds to me like you're saying, "I have to deal with my emotions AND still consider others? This is ridiculous!" You gotta not be focused only on yourself, even in times of great pain and suffering on your part.

This is why we have therapists. So you don't have to take out your issues on others.

Also, don't expect sympathy from everyone. It's extremely unhealthy and damaging, or so I've found. Because, reallly, most people go into one of two groups: 1) the people who don't care, and 2) the people who don't want to get involved. If you need to talk to someone, talk to a shrink or someone who maybe wants to help - don't just expect to get support from everyone and then get depressed or shocked if they don't respond. People aren't very sympathetic these days.

...This argument is extremely circuitous. I hope you get what I'm trying to say...I'm not saying it's unreasonable to consider other people's emotions, but it should go both ways. In my case, I had to deal with being supposed to act like it didn't happen, receiving mixed signals from my surroundings (one guy had suspected what went on, but made it clear that he thought I should just avoid angering my boyfriend, rather than stop putting up with the abuse), seeing my ex on various occasions because no one was willing to consider that maybe I needed a break from him without isolating myself from our mutual friends, and I had to stop a guy who was angry from confronting my boyfriend, because most of the others would be upset by it.

I'm all for focussing on other people too, but as Serpentine said, it's more a matter of their comfort being my important than my comfort. And sometimes it is, of course, I just don't think it should be a given thing, which it often ends up being in these cases (as opposed to cases of more accepted traumas).

As for the rest, I agree :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Ok, so you knew horrible people and the only decent person you knew you felt obligated to stop from pointing out to them how horrible they were.


Drink? I'll buy the first round if it's at the hot chocolate shop. Costs near as much as the pub does, but worth it!

:smallannoyed: Now I want some... and wish the stuff could be acquired somewhere around here. x.x

Guess it's hot cocoa time...:smallsigh:

[WarKitty]

Hands up everyone who, if this were a date, would have left already rather than sit through another hour of Discussing Power Politics Within Relationships Such As the One I'm Attempting to Start with You, and I Will Not Again be Forced Into a Position of Loss. *raise*

:smallbiggrin: I have no idea how to make it take an hour. Usually I'd be interested in someone who was already a friend, so I'd have a fair idea of what they will and won't do. All it really takes in the beginning is "make sure we're both ok with anything that happens." Takes 2 minutes. Of course if the relationship goes on farther you'll need to talk about more, but that's a feature of all relationships.

[Moff Chumley]

Ill go with Dark if it equates to "Aggressive"

I like a girl I can argue with.

Very much this. :smallredface::smallcool:

[Morph Bark]

:smallannoyed: Now I want some... and wish the stuff could be acquired somewhere around here. x.x

Guess it's hot cocoa time...:smallsigh:

Well, it is starting to be the season for it. In the summer a different beverage would be preferable.

On that note, I think it curiously comforting in a way that such talk like this happens and gets settled - and hopefully in people's relationships in real life as well - prior to Christmas. Wouldn't want to mess up the holiday season with bad feelings. :smallwink:

[Starbuck_II]

Ill go with Dark if it equates to "Aggressive"

I like a girl I can argue with.

Well, I do like a good argument. So I agree with Dark in that case.

[ThunderCat]

I think I'll have to go with dark too. Not unstable or evil dark, but someone who doesn't need to be completely sheltered, and who isn't obsessed with pleasing everybody all the time.

[Moff Chumley]

I think I'll have to go with dark too. Not unstable or evil dark, but someone who doesn't need to be completely sheltered, and who isn't obsessed with pleasing everybody all the time.

That's called maturity. :smallsmile: