Playing a Monk without Monk or Unarmed Swordsage levels.

[DaragosKitsune]

Would Tashatalora (Secrets of Sarlona) work with, say, a Monk's Belt? For that matter, do you need to have gained the monk abilities to gain them from Tashatalora or a monk ability enhancing prestige class (ex. Fist of Zuoken) by RAW?

[AslanCross]

Doesn't Tashalatora require Monastic Training, which requires 1 Monk level?

[DaragosKitsune]

Monastic Training actually has no requirements. Neither does its paladin equivalent, Knight Training, but that is for another day.

[AslanCross]

Monastic Training actually has no requirements. Neither does its paladin equivalent, Knight Training, but that is for another day.

Ah, seems that the feat index is wrong, then.

[Tytalus]

For that matter, do you need to have gained the monk abilities to gain them from Tashatalora or a monk ability enhancing prestige class (ex. Fist of Zuoken) by RAW?

In theory: no.

If you assume stacking referring to adding the relevant levels and taking the sum, then 0 + X should indeed be X.

However, not all people agree with this, so it's best to discuss it with your DM.

[Frosty]

Why would you not want to take the first two levels of Monk anyways? Those two levels are awesome.

[Kurald Galain]

Why would you not want to take the first two levels of Monk anyways? Those two levels are awesome.

Because in many builds, two fighter levels will be better.

[Greenish]

Because in many builds, two fighter levels will be better.I'm not sure about a tashatalora. One level of monk gets two of the feats you need, one level of fighter only gets one.

The second level is more up to preferences, but then you could just take monk1/fighter1 if you wanted something from the fighter.

[Curmudgeon]

For that matter, do you need to have gained the monk abilities to gain them from Tashatalora or a monk ability enhancing prestige class (ex. Fist of Zuoken) by RAW?
It depends entirely on how the PrC is written. For example, the Shou Disciple (from Unapproachable East) will enhance an existing flurry of blows ability (allowing it to work with any melee weapon), but won't grant it. And to make it more annoying, Shou Disciple grants Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike) as the Monk ability so you'll get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat twice if you take Monk levels first. So you get either no flurry of blows at all, or Improved Unarmed Strike redundantly. :smallyuk:

[Snake-Aes]

Doesn't Tashalatora require Monastic Training, which requires 1 Monk level?

As said before, monastic training has no such pre-requisite. A psychic warrior 20 can be a Tashalatora with all assorted abilities.

[WinWin]

Some of the monk advancing PrC's have steep requirements without monk. stunning fist is difficult to qualify for early, for example and it's uses per day will be much lower (if that matters).

The Still Mind class feature can be replaced by Archivist, I believe, which could lead into Zerth Cenobite or Fist of Zukoen.

Once you are in the PrC, those levels should stack with Talashtora, regardless of how you qualified.

Stacking a monk belt should work as well, providing an increase to effective monk level for the benefits it provides.

Superior Unarmed Strike would buff your effective monk level for unarmed damage also.

The benefit of Talashtora for non-monks is RAW. It may or may not be what the author intended though. I'm a munchkin, not a mind reader, so I'm just going to believe it was intended as a monk fix.

[Snake-Aes]

Stacking a monk belt should work as well, providing an increase to effective monk level for the benefits it provides.

The benefit of Talashtora for non-monks is RAW. It may or may not be what the author intended though. I'm a munchkin, not a mind reader, so I'm just going to believe it was intended as a monk fix.
Monk belts are under the same "illogic" logic as, say, power attack and a str boost. A character with str 9 should qualify for power attack with a +4str item. The same can be said for monk abilities that the monk belt grants.

And...I don't think you can call tashalatora a monk fix if its strongest use is to completely remove Monk from the character. It's like saying a good monk fix is being a wizard.

[Curmudgeon]

Superior Unarmed Strike would buff your effective monk level for unarmed damage also.
It doesn't, though. The feat provides a completely different unarmed damage progression if you have no Monk levels.

[WinWin]

It doesn't, though. The feat provides a completely different unarmed damage progression if you have no Monk levels.

Talashtora have effective monk levels

[Greenish]

Talashtora have effective monk levelsThe feat just says that your levels in the chosen psionic class stack with your levels of monk to determine your AC bonus and so forth.

It says nothing about "effective monk levels".

[Snake-Aes]

The feat just says that your levels in the chosen psionic class stack with your levels of monk to determine your AC bonus and so forth.

It says nothing about "effective monk levels".

That's the thing... the logic is "Final monk level = monk level + psy level". Nothing says the monk level can't be 0. I don't personally agree with it, but it's perfectly valid.

[WinWin]

sorry if that came across as hostile. Too much caffiene. That is just how I have interpreted those combinations of feats.

[Greenish]

That's the thing... the logic is "Final monk level = monk level + psy level". Nothing says the monk level can't be 0. I don't personally agree with it, but it's perfectly valid.That's not what I was replying to. I meant that if there's a feat that does X if you're a monk, and Y if you're not (such as superior unarmed strike), having tashalatora without monk levels would mean that you get Y.

[Snake-Aes]

Oh, I see. Apologiez.

[Person_Man]

If your DM does allow it, these might be helpful:

Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777)

Fanged Ring: Grants the Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed Strike) feats and deals Con damage when you crit with an Unarmed Strike. Dragon Magic pg 101.

Binder 1: Ronove vestige provides Feather Fall, Mage Hand (as a Swift Action! Great for blocking line of site or closing doors), Improved Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strikes count as magic and cold iron, and you gain unarmed damage as a Monk of your Binder level.

Acheron Flurry: You can spend a Standard Action to restrict your enemy to a single Move or Standard action on his next turn. No To-Hit roll, no Save, it just happens. There are various little restrictions on this, but it’s a great way to prevent a boss enemy from making a full attack or Summoning while your friends pummel him. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and 15 Wis and Dex. Planar Handbook pg 37.

[WinWin]

to clarify I was referring to the OP's question regarding the relationship between items, talashtora and prc's. Being counted as a monk when not a monk.

I never noticed Archeron Flurry before, thanks.

[HunterOfJello]

You need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to do lethal damage with your fists and not incure AoO for attacking while unarmed.

Even with this feat you're still doing your same pathetically low unarmed damage.

[Frosty]

Does the feat also give you *proficiency* with unarmed strikes? Does Tashatalora give at least simple weapon proficiency? :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Does the feat also give you *proficiency* with unarmed strikes? Does Tashatalora give at least simple weapon proficiency? :smallbiggrin:Tashatalora doesn't, but I seem to recall most psionic classes (expect Psion) have it.

[DaragosKitsune]

Gaining Improved Unarmed Strike is easy, even without flaws, if you play a psychic warrior. Which is why my question came up in the first place.

[Frosty]

Tashatalora doesn't, but I seem to recall most psionic classes (expect Psion) have it.
So the Tashatalora will still incur the -4 non-proficiency penalty for unarmed strikes... :smallwink:

[Greenish]

So the Tashatalora will still incur the -4 non-proficiency penalty for unarmed strikes... :smallwink:Well, a tashatalora psion will. Or would, rather. Ardent and psywarrs are more common fodder for the build, and they do have simple weapons proficiency.

[Kylarra]

So the Tashatalora will still incur the -4 non-proficiency penalty for unarmed strikes... :smallwink:Tashalatora is a feat so only if they were a psion...

edit: swordsaged

[TimeWizard]

you just gave me an awesome character idea - a cleric who wanders the realm as a western monk. off topic but props!