D&D 4e Airships

[Sipex]

Alright, so I pulled what little rules there are for airships (and ships to some extent) out of the Adventurers Vault and noticed some glaring weaknesses.

1) AC and Reflex suck for something which, if in battle, will be whizzing through the sky. Most attacks will only require a roll to see if they miss on a natural 1, their only failing would be the range they'd have to deal with.

2) There are no classes of airships. Just the one.

3) There are no stats for airship or ship based weapons (like cannons).

4) Airship to Airship battle would suck horribly as is. It would involve all the party using up their standards to man the airship if they don't have a crew (instead of doing things, like firing weapons) and battle would consist of:
- Is it in range?
-- YES (Shoot it)
- Did you roll a 1?
-- NO (Do damage)
- Is the enemy airship dead?
-- NO (next round)

I've wanted to include some grand air-based battles, my party has expressed interest in this but as is it would be bland and uninteresting.

Any suggestions on how to improve this or alternate rules available? I've made up some custom stuff but as custom stuff goes, it's horribly unbalanced and untested.

Party: Starting airship (I've reduced it since they started out with a crappy model.)

Airship (Unnamed)
Huge vehicle
HP 130 Space 2 squares by 6 squares
AC 4; Fortitude 10, Reflex 0
Speed 0, fly 12 (hover), overland flight 15

Pilot
The pilot must stand at a control wheel, typically at the front of
the topmost deck of the airship cabin.

Crew
In addition to the pilot, an airship requires a crew of two, all
of whom use a standard action each round to help control the
vessel. Reduce the ship’s speed by 4 for each missing crew
member. At fly speed 0, the ship is unable to travel and fl ies
out of control.

Load
Eight Medium creatures; Six tons of cargo.

Out of Control
An out-of-control airship moves forward at half speed. Each
round, it has a 50% chance of descending. It descends 5
squares for the fi rst 10 rounds it is out of control. After 10
rounds, it descends 10 squares per round. An out-of-control
airship that hits the ground after descending more than 20
squares is destroyed.

Decks
The airship’s cabin has two decks: an exterior observation
platform and the crew deck.

Fragile Propulsion
For every 20 damage the airship takes, its speed is reduced by 2 squares. At fly speed 0, the ship is unable to travel and floats out of control.


I also attached a Harpoon Gun to the airship for them which is probably horribly unbalanced.

Harpoon Gun (standard action; encounter; Range 40)
+5 vs AC; 1d10+10 damage; Make a second attack.
Secondary Attack
+10 vs FORT; The harpoon latches onto the object it hit. That object may not move more than 40 squares from the airship and takes a -10 penalty to AC and Reflex from attacks this airship makes.

Harpoon Gun Recharge (standard action; at-will; special)
If the Harpoon Gun has been fired, use this power to recharge it. If the harpoon has latched onto something make a +10 vs FORT attack;
On hit, choose to pull the object 20 squares closer or deal 1d10+5 damage and recharge the Harpoon Gun.


A ton of upgrades which are definitely unbalanced.

Small Cannon (Range 30/60; Reload Standard) 1 square
+8 vs AC; 3d8+10 damage;
2000gp

Medium Cannon (Range 40/80; Reload Standard) 1x2 squares
+12 vs AC; 3d12+10 damage;
7500gp

Large Cannon (Range 50/100; Reload Standard) 2x2 squares
+15 vs AC; 5d12+15 damage;
15000gp

Cannon Ball x10
200gp

Easy-reload (Cannon Upgrade)
Apply to a single cannon. You may reload this cannon with a minor action now.
1000gp

Auto-Reload (Cannon Upgrade)
The Cannon now reloads automatically from a stockpile which can hold 10 cannon balls.
5000gp

Stockpile upgrade
Increase the number of cannonballs the auto-cannon stockpile can hold by 5.
500gp

Auto-Fire (Cannon Upgrade)
The Cannon may now fire twice in one turn with a single standard action.
5000gp

Reinforced Hull
Equip on your airship. Increase it's AC by 5.
1000gp

Studded Armor
Equip on your airship. Increase it's AC by 8
3000 gp

Thin Plate Armor
Equip on your airship. Increase it's AC by 12.
7000gp

Scale Armor
Equip on your airship. Increase it's AC by 18.
20000gp

Extra Propeller
Equip on your airship. Increase it's flying speeds by 1 and it's Reflex by 5.
1000gp

Booster Propeller
Equip on your airship. Increase it's flying speeds by 1 and it's Reflex by 10.
5000gp

Magic Sling (Range x3) 1 square
Must be manned by a spell caster. May be used to increase the range of any offensive spells cast through it.
3000gp

Magic Cannon (Range x4; Power x2) 1 square
Must be manned by a spell caster. May be used to increase the range and power of any offensive spells cast through it.
20000gp

Size Upgrade
Increase your airship to the next size and increase it's capacity, decks and health.
Small (2x6) --> Medium (4x6) --> Large (4x8)
130 HP --> 260 HP --> 400 HP
8 people/6 tons --> 15 people/12 tons --> 30 people/20 tons
2 decks --> 3 decks --> 4 decks
10000gp


On the topic of prices. I give my party more than the standard loot because that's part of the fun for them. They originally only received standard loot and hated not being able to buy anything most of the time.

[ninja_penguin]

Frankly, I've assumed that the airship put out in the adventurer's vault is more of a cargo airship instead of an actual combat airship. A big balloon dirigible style thing would, in fact, be a horrible horrible target to try and defend or soak up blows with.

I'm doing something similar. I gave them the airship in my original notes, then realized that they'd easily go off anything resembling a coherent plot, so it was found unfinished, and quests/adventures are setting up antagonists and quests that provide upgrades, armor, and weapons and the like.

[Sipex]

My players are fine for that, they like plot so it's not something I have to worry about.

You make a good point though, those stats are cargo airship stats.

I'll revamp it a bit, maybe match it's stats up more with boats. Increase it's speed, etc.

[Sipex]

So...no more ideas or input.

I'll be changing the AC and Reflex around to reflect it's status as a battle airship (probably something akin to 10+party 1/2 level+armor on the ship) and the weapons to match but I'm still taking any other input.

[ninja_penguin]

Well, for other fun bits, you can have a running airship battle. Make an official 'deck' that they can stand no, and having flying guys attacking the ship, ala FF3/6's battle against the imperial air forces when you're heading to the flying continent.

I don't really have much other info or ideas as I haven't finished all of mine for my players, and I'm not sure what you're looking for. Of course, this is supposed to culminate in them defending a city Minis Tirath style, with the airship flying supporting cover from on high.

[Sipex]

Good point, I was mainly looking for things like "Well, this is too overpowered" "Your custom items should be scaled as such." "Have you thought of this?"

Your idea is good though, one of my players is about to get a pegasus (without knowing it) so she'll love the chance to abuse that flight.

[Vadin]

Have you considered abstracting airship stats and building it it's own little combat system instead of sticking with the man-to-man combat WotC tries to make airships use?

That is, instead of generating real stats for different airships, each variety has a designated speed, a 'damage threshold' (to be discussed in the next paragraph), and grants a special benefit or two in airship-to-airship combat. Additionally, characters acting as Pilots can pick 1 improvement per tier from a list.

Airships, like planes, can't take that many hits and continue flying- massively huge amounts of hp, then, don't make much sense. They can only take so many hits, each hit that exceeds or meets the ship's damage threshold moving it further down along a five stage condition track, starting with 'Whole' and ending in 'Crashing' when the ship is falling and one hit from being fully destroyed. Different varieties and sizes of ships have different damage thresholds.

Attacks options are picked with 'attack slots', with at-will powers (differentiated in range , to-hit bonus/penalty, and damage die size and bonus) taking 1 slot, rechargeable encounter powers taking 2, and once-per-battle powers taking 3. Each power requires at least one character other than a Pilot to be present. Every airship should also have a default zero range 'ramming speed!' attack where both it and the target take the same damage and both ships are knocked back from each other (powers related to this might be drills or rams, reducing the damage you take from ramming, increasing the damage dealt, and reducing or increasing the knockback distance).

Examples!

Of airship types:
[B]Fighter
Speed: 5
Damage Threshold: 10
AC: 10 + Pilot's reflex save
Special: Attacks are made with +1 to hit and +1 damage.
Attack Slots: 1

Cargo
Speed: 6
Damage Threshold: 12
AC: 10 + Pilot's reflex save
Special: In addition to being able to carry more than other ships, cargo ships reduce the attack, defense, and speed penalties from a damaged condition by 1.
Attack Slots: 0

Gunship
Speed: 4
Damage Threshold: 10
AC: 8 + Pilot's reflex save
Special: Attacks are at -1 to hit and +1 damage per die.
Attack Slots: 2

Of the effects of size categories:
Large
Size: 4 Squares
Speed: -1
Damage Threshold: +2
AC: -2
Attack Slots: +2
Number of Pilots: 3

Medium
Size: 2 Squares
Speed: +0
Damage Threshold: +0
AC: +0
Attack Slots: +1
Number of Pilots: 2

Small
Size: 1 Square
Speed: +1
Damage Threshold: -2
AC: +2
Attack Slots: +0
Number of Pilots: 1

Examples of bonuses:
Brutal Ballistics: Attacks made against a target within your half your speed (rounded up) gain +1 to hit and +1 damage.

Packing Heat: Your ship gains +1 Attack Slot.

Use The Wind: Your ship gains +1 speed and AC.

Reinforced: Your ship's damage threshold is increased by 1.

Better Barrels: Your weapons gain +2 range and +1 to hit.

Explosive Rounds: Your attacks deal +1 damage per die.

Clever Maneuvering: Your ship gains +2 AC.

Stability: On a turn when your ship doesn't move, it gains +2 to hit.


Your thoughts?

[Sipex]

That's...pretty good, no I didn't even consider the possibility.

It's good, easy enough to balance (working with smaller numbers) and prevents the airship from having easily abusable stats.

I like it a lot.

Definitely going to need to rethink my entire approach.

Thanks!

[Sipex]

What does the below mean?



They can only take so many hits, each hit that exceeds or meets the ship's damage threshold moving it further down along a five stage condition track, starting with 'Whole' and ending in 'Crashing' when the ship is falling and one hit from being fully destroyed. Different varieties and sizes of ships have different damage thresholds.


Are you stating that, for example everytime the Fighter Ship takes 10 damage it goes one step down the 5 step condition ladder? Does all 10 damage have to occur at once?

Your wording of this is a bit odd, that's all.

Thanks again, I really like this.

[Vadin]

If an attack deals 10 or more damage to the airship, it moves one step down the track and suffers the extra effects of the attack. If it only deals a little bit of damage, however, the ship just shakes while still being subject to whatever the non-damaging effects of the attack might have been (like being slowed or having its AC reduced).

Attacks should be in the range of 1d6 to 1d12 and 2d4 to 2d6 for at-wills, with very minor benefits or penalties at the lowest range. Recharge powers get bumped from 1d8 to 1d12 and 2d6 to 2d8 with minor benefits at the high end of the spectrum and reasonable benefits at the low end. Encounter powers: 1d10 to 1d12 and 2d8 to 2d10, with the lower range of damage having substantial effects and the high range of damage still having some notable benefit or penalty.

[Zansumkai]

My first serious attempt at writing a campaign was an attempt to create a 4e Spelljammer setting. It got derailed largely due to the bland airship rules and my overly ambitious attempts to fix them. My goal was to make airship battles function similarly to standard combat, but with the entire party using their powers through the ship. The party roles would be defined primarily by what position they were at in the ship, with the pilot being the leader for example, the person manning the cannons the striker, and so forth. I also took a lot of inspiration from the sites http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/frpg/spelljam/ and http://www.spelljammer.org/

Anyway, here's some of the ideas I had while I was working on the whole thing. These were all very much still in the conceptual stage, but with any luck they're help you out.

First, spelljammers function by attuning themselves to the pilot, and they control the ship telepathically. Therefore the pilot could use their own powers to aid in control of the ship. Primarily they would use powers related to movement or giving buffs, although the pilot could attack with rams or rigging shears. Additionally (and I got this from an above mentioned site) the pilot determines what kind of maneuvers their using. Depending on the maneuver they may gain a bonus to attack while reducing their defense, increase speed and defense but make attacks more difficult, and so forth.

For attacks, the players would likely be leading a crew in the use of cannons, ballista, catapults and massed archery fire. One problem I was having is I didn't want average attacks to be able to damage a ship, you couldn't bring one down just by having the ranger pelt it all day. I really like the idea of a damage track, it seems to solve that problem by disregarding smaller attacks. Additionally, old spelljammer rules had it so you could attack different portions of the ship for different effects. Attack the mast and rigging and you severely damage it's maneuverability, attack the crew directly and you inhibit most of its flight ability, etc. I also had an idea for a device called a spell-amp. It would allow a spellcaster to channel magic through the device, tap the energy in the ship, and have the spell become amplified to the point where it could seriously threaten another ship.

Other functions of the ship (including manning all the less interesting posts of the ship) could be handled by a single player leading the crew. The first mate, if you will. They would be responsible for making repairs to the ship in combat, making boarding actions against enemy ships that have been reeled in (I really like the harpoon idea by the way), or repelling enemy boarders. For boarding actions you could either have a small map on the side and run it as normal combat, or essentially roll both forces into a single creature and have them duke it out without a map.

Like I said, I had a lot of idea but didn't flesh most of them out too well, it ended up just being a little too much. I would love to see some good rules for airships though; as it is both airships and spelljammers have made their way into my current campaign, though they are just set pieces right now.

[grimgrin]

I created an airship map: HERE (http://sitebuilder.yola.com/sites/D299/D6ed/Da70/Dbe0/U8a4986c91cfc9efe011d0eb07ade6992/8a4986c81cfc9e30011d0eb264f3139f/resources/Armed%20Airship.jpg) .


It is armed with dwarven gattling guns:

Dwarven Gattling Gun Crew
The gattling gun is designed to repel the air assaults are rake ground infanty from dwarves airships. It is typically served by a crew of two, a loader and a gunner. When placing the gattling crew, the gun itself occupies one square. It can be pulled 1 square by using a move action (meaning the puller moves one square and pulls the cannon with him).

Dwarf Loader
Dwarf Loader Level 4 Soldier
Medium XP 175

Initiative +6 Senses Perception +4
HP 55; Bloodied 27
AC 20; Fortitude 17, Reflex 16, Will 16
Saving Throws vs Poison +5
Speed 5
Melee Warhammer (Standard; at-will)
+11 vs AC, 1d10+4 damage.
Load Cannon (Standard; at-will)
The dwarf replaces ammo drums as they are drained by the gattling gun.

Stand Your Ground
When an effect forces a dwarf to move – through a pull , a push, or a slide – the dwarf moves 1 square less than the effect specifies. When an attack would knock the dwarf prone, the dwarf can roll a saving throw to avoid falling prone.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common, Dwarven

Skills Dungeoneering +9, Thievery +9
Str 18 (+6) Dex 15 (+4) Wis 15 (+4)
Con 15 (+4) Int 15 (+4) Cha 15 (+4)

Equipment leather armor, war hammer, 6 loaded ammo drums

Dwarf Loader Tactics
The dwarf loader load and prime the cannon for the gunner to fire. They defend themselves and the gunner if attacked and keep an eye on the enemies sneaking up from behind..


Dwarf Gattling Gunner
Dwarf Gattling Gunner Level 8 Artillery
Medium Natural Humanoid (Dwarf, Black Powder) XP 350

Initiative +7 Senses Perception +12
HP 71; Bloodied 35
AC 20; Fortitude 20, Reflex 21, Will 20
Saving Throws vs Poison +5
Speed 5
Melee: Warhammer (Standard; at-will)
+15 vs AC, 2d6+5 damage.
Rarnged: Naval Pistol (Standard; at-will)
Ranged 5/10; +15 vs AC; 1d10+4 damage.

Special Attack: Gattling Gun (Standard; at-will)
Area burst 1 within 20 squares, +13 vs Reflex, 2d8+5 damage (Huge and Gargantuan Targets suffer 4d8+5 damage). The gattling gun can only be fired if it is loaded and primed and becomes unloaded after 4 rounds of use.

Stand Your Ground
When an effect forces a dwarf to move – through a pull , a push, or a slide – the dwarf moves 1 square less than the effect specifies. When an attack would knock the dwarf prone, the dwarf can roll a saving throw to avoid falling prone.

Load Gattling Gun (Standard; at-will)
The dwarf cannon master loads an unloaded gattling gun.

Alignment Unaligned Languages Common, Dwarven

Skills Dungeoneering +12, Thievery +14
Str 17 (+7) Dex 20 (+9) Wis 17 (+7)
Con 17 (+7) Int 17 (+7) Cha 17 (+7)

Equipment: Dwarven gattling gun, leather armor, warhammer, pistol, 12 pistol shots

Dwarf Gattling Gunner Tactics
The dwarf gattling gunner has a loader that helps operate the gun and watch for sneak attacks. The gattling gun sprays an area with multiple shots reducing accuracy but improving the chance of multiple strikes on oversized targets. The gattling gun is too heavy and unwieldy to carry and shoot, and is mounted on a tripod to facilitate aiming. If his loader should perish, he can load the gattling gun himself.

[Zansumkai]

Well aside from the screwy format on the page now I say good show. :smallamused:

[ninja_penguin]

yeah, could you slap a spoiler tag on that image? it's killing the thread for my computer.

[Noircat]

The Auto Fire and Rapid Fire seem a little arcadey and I'd offer other optimization paths through increased accuracy, damage, and alchemical cannonballs.

You might want to have armor slow an airship down a little.

The harpoon gun is sweet and a mechanic for using it to board enemy vessels will likely be needed. Maybe some sort of climbing aid especially for it could be cool like a harness with a rope loop for the harpoon rope or chain so failing a Climb check means they just lose their next standard action getting resituated.

Alchemical cannonballs of acid, fire, steam, and smoke would be great. I always considered alchemical items to be overpriced, especially some simple smoke bomb.

[Zansumkai]

Slightly off topic, but I think if I told the swordmage in my game that he could make alchemical ammo for a cannon he would toss his sword in the trash and just lug that around with him. He's solved most major problems so far with a combination of alchemical fire, frost, acid and thunderstones.

That does remind me though, Adventurer's Vault has a whole slew of magical ammunition that could probably be easily worked up as ship weaponry. I think I'll take a crack at writing up some usable rules and stats after work today, based on what's been posted so far, and see what everyone thinks :smallsmile:

[Sipex]

Sounds good.

I'm definitely keeping the harpoon gun, I just need to re-work it so it'll fit the system suggested by Vadin. The idea is it can also be used to board, yes, which is what I expect a few of my players might do.

I think once my player hit epic (if they do) I'll allow their normal attacks to affect airships because...at that point...they can harm gods, they should be able to harm an airship.

[Zansumkai]

The more I page through this thread, as well as the sparse information provided by the assorted rule books (both Manual of the Planes and The Plane Above have a few extra vessels) the more I think all the pieces are here to make something easy to use that overlays well with the way the game plays out. I'm gonna talk it out and see if it makes sense.

Airships are inherently big, slow and not very good in a fight. This is the way the rules are presented, and are further supported by the small section in The Plane Above dedicated to ship-to-ship combat. It reads that, "Ship-to-ship battles usually play out as fights between the crews of the ships. A typical fight begins with missile combat between the ships' passengers followed by a boarding action." The reasoning being that ships, and particularly the astral vessels they're talking about, are pretty damn expensive and not something to be casually blown up. However, there is one small sentence that got a whole whirl of new ideas going for me. Basically, that single-target attacks should deal reduced damage against a ship, while area-of-effect attacks deal extra, similar to fighting a swarm monster.

So with that in mind I thought that maybe all airships really need to get them moving in combat is a tweak to the way they take damage. For me that has been the hardest thing to get my head around, and everything else seems to fall into place (at least to me) once that it settled. If a ranger can Twin Strike a ship to death my whole sense of disbelief is shot. Although I really like Vadin's idea of a damage track it still doesn't let airships play well with big flying monsters, and it seems like a few well-placed shots would sink the thing. Realistic to be sure, but not the style I am personally looking for (by the way though Vadin, I do think everything you've got in that post, from attack slots to size modifiers is spot on :smallsmile: )

Anyway, I'm rambling. Here is how airships I think airships should take damage.
To damage a airship you have to meet one of the following requirements:
The attack must be a burst or blast attack. Such attacks are considered to have hit half the maximum number squares the attack covers. For example, an area burst 1 would score 4 hits (9 halved, then rounded down). Attack rolls are then made as normal.
The attack comes from an attacker at least the same size category or one size smaller then the target airship. For example a Huge dragon or giant could damage a Gargantuan vessel. However single-target attacks only deal half damage.
The attacker is level 21 or higher. As Sipex pointed out if you have a swinging chance against a god, then all bets are off. As above, single-target attacks only deal half damage. However, should the attacker be within one size category AND epic level, their attacks their regular damage.

Additionally, attacks that target Will have no effect on the ship itself. These attacks can be targeted against the crew, although I am still working out how the crew factors into the operation of the ship. However I imagine that the above rules for damage will apply to attacks against the crew.

Alright, with that out of the way we can go on to assume that some weapons, such as the cannon, harpoon gun or ballista, are weapons optimized for making attacks against ships and therefore deal their normal damage against ships. We'll roll them together into a single grouping, siege weapons. I imagine siege weapons dealing double damage against smaller targets but having large penalties for attack rolls.

As far as damage for these weapons goes, I'm a little more stuck on that. I'm going to throw out some numbers and see if they make sense. Using a Wizard's Scorching Burst as a baseline, you'd on average lets say 3d6+6, or roughly 27 damage. Therefore our dwarven gattling gun team would be a little ahead of the curve.

Alright, well it's midnight, and I think I've rambled enough here. But I guess to boil my thoughts here down to one point, a vehicle is already presented as a sort of unique creature type, and I think treating it as such is the best way to keep it in the ballpark with everything it may be going up against. With that out of the way I think figuring out attacks, and how they scale with the party, is the next best step. After that it's party roles on the ship, and what each unique character can bring to the fight.

[ninja_penguin]

Hum, this might get my homebrewing going, but I'd need to go read up some books later on in order to get my head grounded in the ruleset.

I'm also feeling like some various airships might be allowed to get a little bit faster, or a little more armored. I'm mostly thinking things like Eberron when you start getting into 'magic as tech' style settings, where they don't have balloons hanging off of the airships, and have the big rings of fire and electricity around them.

[Zansumkai]

I'm also feeling like some various airships might be allowed to get a little bit faster, or a little more armored. I'm mostly thinking things like Eberron when you start getting into 'magic as tech' style settings, where they don't have balloons hanging off of the airships, and have the big rings of fire and electricity around them.

Most definitely, but I thought Vadin covered this pretty well with his post so I wanted to focus on my personal pet peeves with the system as it stands. As it is modifying how the ships take damage and therefore what kind of attacks can damage them may not even be the best approach, because I think magic of any kind would still be effective. I mean, the visual of a level 1 ranger taking out an airship in about 4 minutes with his bow (assuming each round is 6 seconds and he averages 10 damage a round) is silly. But a sorcerer doing the same thing with their acid orb is more believable.

Maybe an addendum that ships take half damage from single target attacks, with a resist 20/untyped damage is more in order.

[ninja_penguin]

I mean, the visual of a level 1 ranger taking out an airship in about 4 minutes with his bow (assuming each round is 6 seconds and he averages 10 damage a round) is silly. But a sorcerer doing the same thing with their acid orb is more believable.

Maybe an addendum that ships take half damage from single target attacks, with a resist 20/untyped damage is more in order.

I agree that there needs to be something from stopping people blowing their dailies and downing an airship at hilarious speeds, but in keeping with 4e's general design philosophy, I don't want to exclude something just because of power source or method of attack. For example, what if the ranger has flaming arrows? I think a general swarm-like thing of 'half damage from singe-target attacks' or 'half damage from all weapon and implement attacks without the siege property'. Where the siege property is something we make up and assign to the various airship weapons.