Crazy Theory/Speculation #∞+512

[RndmNumGen]

So... That new spell that Durkon has been studying might be related to the book referenced here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), that Durkon might be able to use to adopt several of the more mystical aspects. Since we know that Malack's religion is very focused on death, it is likely that the book was covering topics related to that... I know it has previously been speculated that this might have something to do with Xykon, but I recently had the thought that the spell might be a sacrificial one, as the Empire of Blood certainly loves sacrifices. Durkon probably wouldn't be willing to use any sacrifices, unless the sacrifice was... himself. Using a spell like that on Xykon might wound him enough for Roy to finally finish him off, and Durkon would probably be happy with the result as he died in battle(thus gaining a good place in the afterlife) and would then return home posthumorously.

Alternatively, Durkon might accidentally himself into a lich, in which case he would still be returning home posthumorously. That does seem even more far fetched though, and not in-line with his religion at all...

[Leecros]

Alternatively, Durkon might accidentally himself into a lich, in which case he would still be returning home posthumorously. That does seem even more far fetched though, and not in-line with his religion at all...

This Comic Aint Big Enough for two Lich's :smalltongue:

[RndmNumGen]

Yeah, I don't think that is at all likely. I just thought of it at the last moment and threw it in there.

[Dr.Epic]

Durkon's good and I think smart enough to avoid accidentally making a phylactery.

[Shreav]

Combining comics 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) and 739 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), it seems fairly clear that it's a mass protection against death/negative-energy spell.

[RndmNumGen]

Combining comics 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) and 739 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), it seems fairly clear that it's a mass protection against death/negative-energy spell.

How would a mass protection spell be a common topic in Malack's religion? After all, he worships Nergal the Destroyer.

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

And Ereshkigal, who's the goddess who guards the underworld. Seems perfectly fine to me.

All deaths should happen in their appointed time. If it is not your time, then invoke Ereshkigal to prevent another changing your fate.

See? :)

[Dr.Epic]

And Ereshkigal, who's the goddess who guards the underworld. Seems perfectly fine to me.

All deaths should happen in their appointed time. If it is not your time, then invoke Ereshkigal to prevent another changing your fate.

See? :)

yeah, makes sense

[Leecros]

Nergal the Destroyer.

bah Epithets are just words.

I once had a general in Medieval 2 with "the Unstoppable" as his Epithet...he got it right before he lost a major battle and died.

:smalltongue:

[RndmNumGen]

And Ereshkigal, who's the goddess who guards the underworld. Seems perfectly fine to me.

All deaths should happen in their appointed time. If it is not your time, then invoke Ereshkigal to prevent another changing your fate.

See? :)


That make... more sense. Still not completely convinced though, a mass protection spell still seems a little off...

[Dire Moose]

Perhaps Malack was referring to negative energy being a common topic in his religion. After all, negative energy spells are strongly associated with both death and destruction.

[factotum]

Alternatively, Durkon might accidentally himself into a lich, in which case he would still be returning home posthumorously. That does seem even more far fetched though, and not in-line with his religion at all...

Er, yes, that is MASSIVELY far-fetched considering the process of becoming a lich is something so unspeakably evil that it would be kind of hard to NOT notice you're doing it...it's not like a single spell will turn you into one!

[Leecros]

Er, yes, that is MASSIVELY far-fetched considering the process of becoming a lich is something so unspeakably evil that it would be kind of hard to NOT notice you're doing it...it's not like a single spell will turn you into one!

it WOULD be mildly entertaining though for someone to not notice they're turning into a lich.

[Lord_Gareth]

What the hell does turning into a Lich actually involve that's so unspeakably evil? WotC didn't bother mentioning it, and there's no souls consumed or orphans kidnapped or anything (they would have talked about that kind of thing in the template otherwise). The only thing I can think of is the involvement of Negative Energy, but it's not like Liches feed on the living, and the inflict series of spells (not to mention ray of exhaustion and its cousins) would like a word with anyone who wants to argue that neg energy is automatically evil.

[Leecros]

What the hell does turning into a Lich actually involve that's so unspeakably evil? WotC didn't bother mentioning it, and there's no souls consumed or orphans kidnapped or anything (they would have talked about that kind of thing in the template otherwise). The only thing I can think of is the involvement of Negative Energy, but it's not like Liches feed on the living, and the inflict series of spells (not to mention ray of exhaustion and its cousins) would like a word with anyone who wants to argue that neg energy is automatically evil.

I think the creation of undead in any form is evil aligned, most GM's would probably automatically call turning into a Lich evil.

It's a good preface to other evil acts also...undead aren't liked very well. So while i believe that there are non-evil lich's mentioned somewhere(i'm not too familiar with the D&D books) they would probably live a long, miserable, lonely un-life until some paladins comes by and smites him.

Evil lich's however have all the fun.

[Andraste]

You can't become a lich on accident.


The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

[Lord_Gareth]

@Leecros - If my mindless skeletons are building houses and running soup kitchens, is their creation evil?

@SRD Quote - Okay, unspeakably evil how? Do I need to eat a thousand orphans? Take ranks in Profession (Lawyer)? Hide the TV remote? What part of becoming a Lich is the actual evil bit?

[Moogleking]

Undead are all evil because negative energy is evil.
Negative energy is evil because undead are evil.

It's stupid; but thats pretty much how it is.

[Lord_Gareth]

Undead are all evil because negative energy is evil.
Negative energy is evil because undead are evil.

It's stupid; but thats pretty much how it is.

Except when it isn't, and they aren't. WotC waffles constantly on this subject, and Libris Mortis did not help any. LG mummies! CN Wights! And for that matter, if neg energy is evil, why isn't ray of exhaustion given the [Evil] descriptor? How about enervate? Inflict? All canonically non-evil spells.

[KingCold999]

TBH, I dont think of becomming a lich as neccessarily evil. Power hungry yes, but not evil. That is unless the ritual to become a lich included evil actions, like sacrificing a living victim, but nowhere have I personally seen it that you have to do so to become one. Necromancy, although disliked and such, is not necessarily evil - it is using the bodies of dead things (who don't need their body anymore) to do what they wish to be done. Its more questionable because of using the body would be "Not respecting the dead" or something like that :smalltongue:

An evil act however would be like killing the vicitim THEN making them into undead. The killing is what is evil there, not the undead.

The reason inflict doesn't have evil descriptor is because it is the destruction of life through negative energy.. but negative does NOT equal evil (or else (-1) to (-∞+1) would be considered evil numbers. *Joke* :smalltongue:). A good-aligned person that could cast an inflict spell can do so for a good reason and not an evil one (for example destroying something that is going to slaughter an entire town.)

Summary:

Lich != Evil (Not all the time anyways)
Necromancy ?= Evil (questionable but not evil.)
Negative Energy != Evil (That is if not being used for evil)

[Vorynn]

... and would then return home posthumorously.

Alternatively, Durkon might accidentally himself into a lich, in which case he would still be returning home posthumorously. That does seem even more far fetched though, and not in-line with his religion at all...

Would that be like, returning home after cracking a really good one-liner? Maybe the book he borrowed, or the spell he researched, is really funny? :)

[zyborg]

I think that was a pun. Posthumously, and humorously, as it would be unexpected and funny if he returned as a lich, which would fulfill both prophecies to an extent (except for the destruction part)

[Nyello]

The title is all wrong. We only use that symbol to indicate potential infinity. It should be ω+512, or δ+512 where δ is an infinite ordinal.

[RebelRogue]

The title is all wrong. We only use that symbol to indicate potential infinity. It should be ω+512, or δ+512 where δ is an infinite ordinal.
And here I thought to myself, that I would be the only one thinking of ordinals when reading the title of this thread. Seeing that this is The Playground, of course I was wrong...

[derfenrirwolv]

I think its far more likely that he's researching mass Protection from negative energy.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

[Kondziu]

Except when it isn't, and they aren't. WotC waffles constantly on this subject, and Libris Mortis did not help any. LG mummies! CN Wights! And for that matter, if neg energy is evil, why isn't ray of exhaustion given the [Evil] descriptor? How about enervate? Inflict? All canonically non-evil spells.

You discard SRD quote saying "unspeakably evil how?", I could very well say "non-evil how?" and maitain the same discussion level.

As mentioned before: SRD says becoming a lich is an evil process; additionally lich template's aligment is listed as "any evil" and their Fear Aura is described as "a dreadful aura of death and evil". It's evil in similiar way to how creating undead is evil, probably. Also, I think that it's the process of creation itself that makes creating undead evil, not what you choose to do with them.

It's only natural there are no details as to what exactly this process consists of. It's unspeakably evil, darn it. :smallwink:

[Lord_Gareth]

You discard SRD quote saying "unspeakably evil how?", I could very well say "non-evil how?" and maitain the same discussion level.

As mentioned before: SRD says becoming a lich is an evil process; additionally lich template's aligment is listed as "any evil" and their Fear Aura is described as "a dreadful aura of death and evil". It's evil in similiar way to how creating undead is evil, probably. Also, I think that it's the process of creation itself that makes creating undead evil, not what you choose to do with them.

It's only natural there are no details as to what exactly this process consists of. It's unspeakably evil, darn it. :smallwink:

I disregard it because it's a moral qualifier; morality is formed of choices. I need to know what it could POSSIBLY involve that makes it always evil.

Also, creating undead isn't always evil. Except when it is, which happens any time it isn't. WotC's stance is THAT bad.

(Also, Libris Mortis introduced the "Good Lich" variant, so booyah :P )

[Kondziu]

Alright, I give up.
Maybe, as SRD says, you really have to do unspeakably evil things to become a lich, but (pretty much like V) you can try and succeed to redeem yourself?

And apologies if I'm wrong here (please set me right then), but isn't morality in D&D arbitrary? I mean, if the rules state something is a seriously evil act, it IS Evil (with capital E) even if in real world you would throw it into "grey" bin?

[derfenrirwolv]

And apologies if I'm wrong here (please set me right then), but isn't morality in D&D arbitrary? I mean, if the rules state something is a seriously evil act, it IS Evil (with capital E) even if in real world you would throw it into "grey" bin?

Yes and no.

There isn't much i can think of that would be considered evil in the real world that isn't considered evil in D&D, so its not entirely arbitrary. The only place arbitrary evil comes into D&D is things without real world analogues, such as casting protection from good, raising the dead, and summoning evil monsters in. Raising undead hordes and using them to clean out your attic in d&d is evil. Summoning in a fiendish octopus, even if you're going to use it to rescue someone, is evil. Calling a fiend to ask him questions regarding the fate of the world is evil. Blowing people apart with a fireball or sickening them with a stinking cloud and killing them is just fine, sickening them with unholy blight is evil.


My chaotic good summoner once summoned an Imp to ask where a kidnaped party member was. The price of the information was a weeks vacation from hell in the wizards luxuriously appointed house. Technically this was an evil act even if the most evil thing the imp managed to do was foul up a scrub brush.

[SadisticFishing]

Becoming a lich is unspeakably evil.

I know the details, but I wouldn't dare speak of them.

Seriously, it's there in the manual, no ifs, ands, or buts - it requires something so horrifying that the writer didn't put it there. Go with it.

[TheBlackShadow]

My current crazy theory: Amun-Zora, the hot diplomat-fighter lady from the Free City of Doom currently cavorting with Tarquin, is Sabine in disguise.

Nale, knowing good old daddy, knew that Sabine would be perfectly suited to get close to him, at which point hilarity ensues. Her behaviour at the ball was just obfuscating helplessness, or whatever you want to call it. Her strange reaction to Elan the following morning wasn't just embarrassment, she recognised him and was afraid he'd see through the shapechange and bust the plan (currently available at all Acme outlets, probably) wide open.

Clearly, something is up in the Empire of Blood, judging by the Ominous Foreshadowing we received in the latest strip, and Nale is lying in wait to see what it is before he strikes, his deadly sleeper unit already in place for when the time comes.

[Nimrod's Son]

My current crazy theory: Amun-Zora, the hot diplomat-fighter lady from the Free City of Doom currently cavorting with Tarquin, is Sabine in disguise.
All Sabine's disguises retain the same skin colour, though, and Amun-Zora's is different.