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Harris the Ford
2010-10-13, 05:38 PM
how does it work? I want to play as a bear, or dire bear, that was awakened by some random roaming druid.

Kylarra
2010-10-13, 05:41 PM
Well strictly speaking, you take the existing animal's stats, 3D6 for intelligence and add 1D3 charisma and have whatever racial hit dice normally +2 as a magical beast.

LOTRfan
2010-10-13, 05:43 PM
Yeah, and what level adjustment would that have anyway?

Kylarra
2010-10-13, 05:48 PM
Yeah, and what level adjustment would that have anyway?you'd have to ask your DM. Frankly since magical beast hit dice are like fighters without bonus feats, you may be okay just being saddled with those, depending on the opfu of the group and the specific animal.

Baalthazaq
2010-10-13, 06:01 PM
I let my player once play as an awakened dog. I let him just have Class levels in Fighter from the get go. Used the wolf as a template. Gave him scent + trip.

Worked out fine from level 6 (where I started the campaign) to 16 (where I ended it) over the course of a year and a half. No problems.

Flickerdart
2010-10-13, 06:07 PM
Your bog standard Awakened Black Bear, factoring in average Awaken values, would have the following goodies:

+8 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, -2 INT, +2 WIS, -2 CHA
Claw/claw/bite
40ft move speed
+2 Natural AC
+4 on Swim checks

This is significantly better than a 2nd level Fighter, feats or no feats. Since these stat adjustments are very similar to the Half-Dragon but lack the breath weapon, I would have no problem pegging it as a 2RHD, 2LA race (ignoring the base Animal HD).

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 06:07 PM
Ooo...an Awakened dire bear druid with a dire bear companion/mount. Who needs wildshape? :smallbiggrin:

LOTRfan
2010-10-13, 06:10 PM
Personshape?

Notreallyhere77
2010-10-13, 06:10 PM
...Since these stat adjustments are very similar to the Half-Dragon but lack the breath weapon, I would have no problem pegging it as a 2RHD, 2LA race (ignoring the base Animal HD).

I like this idea, basing LA off of similar stats. Maybe now I can let one of my players have that awakened octpus PC he wanted.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 06:13 PM
I like this idea, basing LA off of similar stats. Maybe now I can let one of my players have that awakened octpus PC he wanted.

:smalleek::smalleek:

Well, at least it's not a dire octopus.

Notreallyhere77
2010-10-13, 06:14 PM
Wait, weren't there rules for it in Savage Species?

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 06:18 PM
Ref: Making an animal into a dire animal? Or playing anthropomorphic animals? Or playing awakened animals?

1. Maybe?
2. Yes.
3. Yes, but IIRC, they were pretty broken (in a "too high of an LA" way).

LOTRfan
2010-10-13, 06:23 PM
Dire Animals? No.

What page were the rules for awakened animals on? I remember the awakened Deinonychus, but nothing else springs to mind at the moment.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-13, 06:23 PM
Wait, weren't there rules for it in Savage Species?

Savage Species has rules for Anthropomorphic Animals, which are different from Awakened Animals.


Anthropomorphic Animals are part-humanoid part-animal.

Awakened Animals are Animals that had the Awaken spell cast on them and gained human sentience.


~

The roleplaying differences are significant while the character sheet ones might not be. Other than the fact that Anthros can wield weapons.

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 06:24 PM
Dire Animals? No.

What page were the rules for awakened animals on? I remember the awakened Deinonychus, but nothing else springs to mind at the moment.

That was pretty much it. But I could swear there was a basic rule in there somewhere for the LA of an awakened animal.

Flickerdart
2010-10-13, 06:25 PM
Anthropomorphic animals are horribly broken (such as the anthro bat, with a +wtf Wisdom and a fly speed at LA0). The guidelines for determining LA are awful in another direction, dishing out points for incredibly trivial things.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-13, 06:25 PM
That was pretty much it. But I could swear there was a basic rule in there somewhere for the LA of an awakened animal.

Awaken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm)

dsmiles
2010-10-13, 06:29 PM
Awaken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm)

No help. Doesn't even mention LA.

EDIT: I am not AFB! I will go and look it up! MWAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!

EDIT: Epic fail.



DM's may allow awakened animal or plant characters, but players are advised to consider using anthropomorphic animals in Appendix 3 of this book instead.

Flickerdart
2010-10-13, 07:29 PM
Honestly, a lot of the time no LA at all is needed. The aforementioned Black Bear would normally be saddled with 3 Animal HD as well as his 2 Magical Beast HD. Compared to a Barbarian of fifth level, and ignoring point buy and WBL, they would look something like this:

Black Bear
4 BAB + 4 STR = +8 to-hit
1d4+4 = 6.5 damage (and more attacks)
8 + 2d8 + 2d10 HP + 10 CON = 38 HP
2 natural + 1 DEX = +3 AC
+8 Fort, +7 Ref, +2 Will after mods

Human Barbarian (raging, to account for class features)
5 BAB + 2 STR = +7 to-hit
1d12+3 = 9.5 damage
12 + 4d12 + 10 CON = 48 HP
Breastplate, -2 from rage = +3 AC
+6 Fort, +1 Ref, +3 Will after mods

You can see that neither is strictly better - the bear will have better damage from a full attack, but the Barbarian has more hit points and more devastating single attacks once you add Power Attack and his better return from two-handing. The bear's high saves are due to "multiclassing", and would be +6/5/2 with fractional saves, only 3 points ahead of the barbarian. They're roughly equal, so LA isn't necessary.

Kylarra
2010-10-13, 07:45 PM
Your bog standard Awakened Black Bear, factoring in average Awaken values, would have the following goodies:

+8 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, -2 INT, +2 WIS, -2 CHA
Claw/claw/bite
40ft move speed
+2 Natural AC
+4 on Swim checks

This is significantly better than a 2nd level Fighter, feats or no feats. Since these stat adjustments are very similar to the Half-Dragon but lack the breath weapon, I would have no problem pegging it as a 2RHD, 2LA race (ignoring the base Animal HD).He'd have that on 5 racial hit dice though. While those are decent for sure, I dunno if I'd consider it that much better than say a warblade or an optimized fighter (granted fighter5 is a bad place to compare since fighter5 has nothing but the iterative.

jumpet
2010-10-13, 08:12 PM
I'd seek clarification on things like magic item body slots and whether there is any chance of somehow wielding a weapon (and iterative attacks), drinking potions etc etc. You know, the whole opposable thumb thing.

awa
2010-10-13, 10:04 PM
i would point out that the barbarian cant rage all day, the bear does have sent and once he takes his first level can acquire armor further boosting his ac.
But in the grand scheme of things depending on optimization i agree because those benefits are counteracted by the fact that the bear will have a much harder time using many items and in social encounters. so as i said taking into account varying degrees of optimization i would say a black bear with no level adjustment would be fine.

now if you are a masochist and want to use the savage species level adjustment it would be
+1 for natural armor (even 1 point is enough for +1 level adjustment!)
+1 for 3 attacks
+1 for high stats (or more it says particularly unbalanced stats cost more)

so according to savage species a awakened black bear should be in a party of level 8 or 9 characters. considering a level 8 druid can turn into a polar bear for 8 hours at a time i personally disagree with their assessment

dgnslyr
2010-10-13, 10:54 PM
Personshape?

Maybe you use it to transform into another bear?

Stephen_E
2010-10-14, 12:06 AM
Pathfinder has relatively simple Monster PC rules you could use.

The ECL is equal to the CR of the monster, and you get a bonus class level for every 3 class levels you gain, upto a max of 1/2 your CR round down. The bonus level comes 1/2 way between the 2nd and 3rd levels.

Black Bear CR2 = ECL2
1/2 CR = 1 = 1 Bonus Class level.

For simplicity I'd make the bonus HD from been Awakened Class levels.
This can be argued either way by rules, but it makes working things out much easier.

So your Awaken Black Bear = Lev 2 + 2 Class levels = Lev 4.
When your xp is 1/2 way to lev 5 you get a 3rd class level and from then on you advance class levels as normal.

Remember any Armour needs to be specially crafted and no weapon use.
If they want to use improved unarmed strikes I suggest you use the PF rules for combining Unarmed Strikes and Natural attacks.
Yes you can be the kung fu bear, but it isn't as awesome as 3.5 allowed it to be. :smallwink:

Stephen E

Harris the Ford
2010-10-14, 12:35 AM
To be honest, the reason I wanted to do this is so I could play as a bear barbarian then take levels in, you guesssed it, bear warrior. You can hit me now :D.

I like to rage like a bear, but sometimes I want to rage as a different bear. [/oldspiceripoff]

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 04:58 AM
To be honest, the reason I wanted to do this is so I could play as a bear barbarian then take levels in, you guesssed it, bear warrior. You can hit me now :D.

I like to rage like a bear, but sometimes I want to rage as a different bear. [/oldspiceripoff]

Would that make you a true Bear Bearman the Bearbearian?

Harris the Ford
2010-10-14, 05:49 AM
I really want to play this char, I would explain to my teammates that I just turn really white when I get angry, I'm totally not changing into a polar bear :P

Shademan
2010-10-14, 05:50 AM
how does it work? I want to play as a bear, or dire bear, that was awakened by some random roaming druid.

I played as a bear once. it was GREAT fun.
I can highly recomend it

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 06:34 AM
Personshape?

That's what Fangshields substitution levels (Champions of Valor, IIRC) are for, after all.

druid91
2010-10-14, 12:07 PM
Don't forget the handle humanoid skill.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 02:46 PM
I'd seek clarification on things like magic item body slots and whether there is any chance of somehow wielding a weapon (and iterative attacks), drinking potions etc etc. You know, the whole opposable thumb thing.Animal item slots are here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a), Mouthpick weapon (essentially a twohander you can hold in your mouth) is in LoM, and there were gloves that granted you opposable thumbs somewhere too.

Don't forget the handle humanoid skill.You'll have to ask your DM, since by rules it's felines only (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c).

Flickerdart
2010-10-14, 02:58 PM
He'd have that on 5 racial hit dice though. While those are decent for sure, I dunno if I'd consider it that much better than say a warblade or an optimized fighter (granted fighter5 is a bad place to compare since fighter5 has nothing but the iterative.
It's not - look at the numbers directly above your post. The 2 LA is intended instead of the 3 RHD.

Kylarra
2010-10-14, 03:18 PM
It's not - look at the numbers directly above your post. The 2 LA is intended instead of the 3 RHD.In a game without buyoff, 2LA is worse than the 3RHD. With buyoff, yeah 2 LA is better. I'd honestly probably just plug them all into magical beast HD and say you have 5 levels.

Flickerdart
2010-10-14, 03:23 PM
I'm not claiming they're identical. I'm just trying to determine appropriate ECL through empirical methods. All Magical Beast HD makes the bear a considerably more alluring option, as you gain BAB and HP, which isn't really desirable - it's a relatively balanced choice mechanically as-is.

Runeclaw
2010-10-14, 06:10 PM
The aforementioned Black Bear would normally be saddled with 3 Animal HD as well as his 2 Magical Beast HD.

Wouldn't all 5 be Magical Beast HD after the transformatino?


Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal).

If your type changes, don't all your HD convert?

Astral Avenger
2010-10-14, 06:22 PM
[QUOTE=HunterOfJello;9545472]Savage Species has rules for Anthropomorphic Animals, which are different from Awakened Animals.


Anthropomorphic Animals are part-humanoid part-animal.

Awakened Animals are Animals that had the Awaken spell cast on them and gained human sentience.

what happens if its not a human casting awaken? if an elf casts it does the animal get elven sentience?

Urpriest
2010-10-14, 06:28 PM
[QUOTE=HunterOfJello;9545472]Savage Species has rules for Anthropomorphic Animals, which are different from Awakened Animals.


Anthropomorphic Animals are part-humanoid part-animal.

Awakened Animals are Animals that had the Awaken spell cast on them and gained human sentience.

what happens if its not a human casting awaken? if an elf casts it does the animal get elven sentience?

Human is used here quantitatively. Human sentience = Int approximately 10. Elven sentience is similar. I suppose an Orc would cry racism if his awakened animals didn't have an Int penalty, though, sure.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 06:33 PM
Wouldn't all 5 be Magical Beast HD after the transformatino?

If your type changes, don't all your HD convert?Augmented subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype).

The animal HD would still have Animal type's HD, BAB, Saves and Skills.