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Rasman
2010-10-13, 08:17 PM
I've been looking for ideas for a backup character for the campaign I'm currently playing in. I'd much rather my current character not die, but things do happen (I've never been in a campaign where a character died because I'm either too cautious or it didn't last long enough." I wondered upon the Arcane Trickster on the PFSRD, since I don't have my Core Book or Advanced Players Guide with me at work, and the class really interested me since it's a mix between a rogue and a Wizard, which seems to be the quickest and easiest combo/route to the PrC.

Are there any classes or class combos that give any earlier entry than Rogue 3/Wizard 3?

Is it better to go Sorc for spontaneous casting?

What are the Playground's general feelings on this PrC?

It seemed like an interesting "James Bondish" type class, if James Bond could cast magic that is, to RP.

ericgrau
2010-10-13, 08:26 PM
As a rogue you'll often want to use the same set of spells and damage comes as much or more from sneak attack as spell level. So if you're not doing anything unusual there, a sorcerer may be helpful so you can cast X greater invisibilities and Y blasty spells without worrying about how many of each to prepare or running out of one.

Like other core PrCs there is often a better option in a splatbook. Spellwarp sniper might be better, I don't remember. Also depends on the level of power your group expects.

Skills and tactics often depend on the DM being creative with his encounters, otherwise you may never use ranged legerdemain.

Gabe the Bard
2010-10-13, 08:51 PM
Spellthief 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / Arcane Trickster X

Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster X

Unseen Seer is a prestige class in Complete Mage that gives you full spellcasting and increases your Sneak Attack damage on the first level. The second level also lets you learn an additional Divination spell from any class (including cleric spells), which is useful in general but especially for sorcerers with their limited spells known. It has high skill prerequisites, but they're all skills that are useful for a rogue anyway.

Both of these builds give you earlier entry than a Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 (you need to be able to cast a 3rd level spell), and you'll only lose one level of spellcasting for either build.

The spellthief route is nice if there are other spellcasters in your group because you'll be able to borrow spells from them if you need to. If you go this route, you should definitely take the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel.

Rasman
2010-10-13, 08:54 PM
As a rogue you'll often want to use the same set of spells and damage comes as much or more from sneak attack as spell level. So if you're not doing anything unusual there, a sorcerer may be helpful so you can cast X greater invisibilities and Y blasty spells without worrying about how many of each to prepare or running out of one.

Like other core PrCs there is often a better option in a splatbook. Spellwarp sniper might be better, I don't remember. Also depends on the level of power your group expects.

Skills and tactics often depend on the DM being creative with his encounters, otherwise you may never use ranged legerdemain.

power level is quite high, but this was more of a "fun" idea and so long as I can convert to Pathfinder rules, I can use anything I want

Sorc point is a good point, I don't like having to take an extra level to get into the PrC, but creating an effective character is more important


Spellthief 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / Arcane Trickster X

Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster X

Unseen Seer is a prestige class in Complete Mage that gives you full spellcasting and increases your Sneak Attack damage on the first level. The second level also lets you learn an additional Divination spell from any class (including cleric spells), which is useful in general but especially for sorcerers with their limited spells known. It has high skill prerequisites, but they're all skills that are useful for a rogue anyway.

Both of these builds give you earlier entry than a Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 (you need to be able to cast a 3rd level spell), and you'll only lose one level of spellcasting for either build.

The spellthief route is nice if there are other spellcasters in your group because you'll be able to borrow spells from them if you need to. If you go this route, you should definitely take the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel.

I actually only need a 2nd level spell for the Pathfinder version

The Requirements are...

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Skills: Disable Device 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.

Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.

Special: Sneak attack +2d6.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-13, 09:38 PM
In spite of PF's more lax requirements, you may still want to go Rogue1/Wizard4/USS1/AT X to preserve caster levels. If you want as many AT levels as possible early on, I'd go Rogue1/SneakAttackThugFighter1/Wizard2/AT X with precocious apprentice qualifying you for the second level spells, assuming the fighter UA variants are convertible. If they aren't then you'll have to go Rogue3/Wizard1/AT X, which hurts your spellcasting a lot but compares pretty favorably to rogue 20.

Rasman
2010-10-13, 09:54 PM
In spite of PF's more lax requirements, you may still want to go Rogue1/Wizard4/USS1/AT X to preserve caster levels. If you want as many AT levels as possible early on, I'd go Rogue1/SneakAttackThugFighter1/Wizard2/AT X with precocious apprentice qualifying you for the second level spells, assuming the fighter UA variants are convertible. If they aren't then you'll have to go Rogue3/Wizard1/AT X, which hurts your spellcasting a lot but compares pretty favorably to rogue 20.

I actually really like the Precocious Apprentice path, but it would have to start Wizard2/Rogue1/SATFighter1/ATX because of how Precocious Apprentice requirements are.

I probably won't need this character until much later levels, so I may just try to max the caster level, because missing out on 3 caster levels means I miss out on 9th level spells as a Sorc, which I'm slowly falling in love with the idea of since there's no prep requirements.

Mixing in Spellwarp Sniper seems almost too good to pass up in a 20 level build, but we'll see how that goes.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-13, 10:02 PM
Always beware Ray Deflection.

Rasman
2010-10-13, 10:04 PM
Always beware Ray Deflection.

shhhhh...you'll give the DM ideas...

Gabe the Bard
2010-10-14, 02:09 AM
Sorry about that. I haven't played Pathfinder, so I didn't know about the different prerequisites.

Nevertheless, Unseen Seer is still a good 1 or 2 level dip for Arcane Trickster (you get "Still Spell" at 2nd level). But from 3rd level on, you start to lose caster levels for all your non-divination spells.

Rasman
2010-10-14, 02:59 AM
Sorry about that. I haven't played Pathfinder, so I didn't know about the different prerequisites.

Nevertheless, Unseen Seer is still a good 1 or 2 level dip for Arcane Trickster (you get "Still Spell" at 2nd level). But from 3rd level on, you start to lose caster levels for all your non-divination spells.

well, with some of the Sorc bloodlines, you can get Silent Spell as a bonus feat, so I might just get it that way rather than lose a caster level for the feat

atm, it's looking Sorc4, Rogue 1, Unseen Seer 1, Arcane Trickster 10, Spellwarp Sniper ?

not sure what to do with the last 4 levels, depending on the start level, I might take a second level of rogue just to get Evasion, because there's nothing like not taking damage from a good reflex save

other than Whisper Gnomes, got any racial suggestions

(on second thought, Whisper Gnome would be kinda dumb since they take negatives in Cha)

any thoughts on Spellthief instead of Rogue?

Gabe the Bard
2010-10-14, 05:11 AM
Taking the 2nd level of Unseen Seer won't hurt your caster level (the drop starts at 3rd level). It would delay your entry into Arcane Trickster, so you would get those abilities one level later.

Spellwarp Sniper seems like a good choice for the last few levels. If you want to get evasion, you could take Divine Oracle which gives you Prescient Sense at 2nd level. It works just like evasion, but you can wear any kind of armor you want.

Whisper gnomes do take a hit to charisma, but they're pretty awesome in every other way. If you take Spellthief, you could sneak attack a mage, steal a spell, and have him silenced (without a save) all in one round. However, it would have better synergy with a wizard build. Dragonwrought Kobolds are another good choice if you're going for a sorcerer.

Spellthief really depends on how much you encounter enemy spellcasters in your game. Since you're only taking one level, you won't be able to do any of the other stuff that spellthieves can do at higher levels, such as stealing spell-like abilities. If you don't run into a lot of spellcasters, then the most you can do with you steal spell ability is borrow spells from the other casters in your party. That can still be useful when you want to buff yourself with a spell that you don't have or when you need to coordinate an attack using a spell that belongs to someone else in your party. But it also depends on how you decide the Master Spellthief feat works. RAW you can steal spells of higher levels but can't actually use them. That's kind of silly, though, so you can ask your DM if you can use those higher level spells that you steal as well.

Rasman
2010-10-15, 07:16 PM
Taking the 2nd level of Unseen Seer won't hurt your caster level (the drop starts at 3rd level). It would delay your entry into Arcane Trickster, so you would get those abilities one level later.

Spellwarp Sniper seems like a good choice for the last few levels. If you want to get evasion, you could take Divine Oracle which gives you Prescient Sense at 2nd level. It works just like evasion, but you can wear any kind of armor you want.

Whisper gnomes do take a hit to charisma, but they're pretty awesome in every other way. If you take Spellthief, you could sneak attack a mage, steal a spell, and have him silenced (without a save) all in one round. However, it would have better synergy with a wizard build. Dragonwrought Kobolds are another good choice if you're going for a sorcerer.

Spellthief really depends on how much you encounter enemy spellcasters in your game. Since you're only taking one level, you won't be able to do any of the other stuff that spellthieves can do at higher levels, such as stealing spell-like abilities. If you don't run into a lot of spellcasters, then the most you can do with you steal spell ability is borrow spells from the other casters in your party. That can still be useful when you want to buff yourself with a spell that you don't have or when you need to coordinate an attack using a spell that belongs to someone else in your party. But it also depends on how you decide the Master Spellthief feat works. RAW you can steal spells of higher levels but can't actually use them. That's kind of silly, though, so you can ask your DM if you can use those higher level spells that you steal as well.

I don't really see a lot of upside to taking the Rogue over Spellthief since it's only a one level dip and they basically give the same thing, except I get the Spellthief's main ability and lose 2 skill points.

We don't really fight a lot of casters, but there is the potential for it in the later levels and one of the eventual BBEGs is a full blown Wizard/Something/Somethingthatdoesn'ttakenegativelevels/something/SOMETHING that is going to be HORRIBLE to deal with, so the Spellthief has some potential there if I get high enough to steal his important spells. Any other suggestions for optimization and such?