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Traveler
2010-10-14, 10:05 AM
Dear playground, I would like to build a goblin tank character, but standard goblin takes a str penatly. Are there any varients or subtle templates that can help with that. Being a little non opt isn't a big deal given that the other characters is a druid (going into MoMF) and a wizard.
The build is 5th level if that matters.
Note, please to not suggest hobgoblin/varag/ or bugbear.
Thank you in advance.

Diarmuid
2010-10-14, 10:08 AM
Boo, I was hoping this was about some Goblin version of the Apparatus of Kwalish.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 10:15 AM
Swordsage? Excellent AC, good offense, toss enemies about with your Setting Sun-Fu.

Capitalize the Dex with Combat Reflexes and Stand Still.

Mongoose87
2010-10-14, 10:20 AM
Swordsage? Excellent AC, good offense, toss enemies about with your Setting Sun-Fu.

Capitalize the Dex with Combat Reflexes and Stand Still.

Don't forget Shadow Blade!

awa
2010-10-14, 10:21 AM
well if all were talking about is cranking ac a chain shirt+ dastana+ chariam has ac 6 and allows you to use most of your dex. which as a goblin is likely not bad.

feral is a powerful template for a tank character it gives you fast heal, and natural armor. so your character can take a huge beating

Telonius
2010-10-14, 10:28 AM
The Strength penalty really doesn't hurt that much. You have -2 Str, but the +1 to attack helps make up for that. The only thing the strength penalty really hurts is damage and a few skill checks.

If you're really concerned about it, there are a few templates that might help. Draconic (Draconomicon), Mineral Warrior (Underdark), and Half-Minotaur (DR 313 p.94) are all +1 LA templates that grant bonuses to strength. (Please note that Half-Minotaur is generally considered extremely powerful for its level adjustment. Many DMs think it's stinky, stinky cheese and ban it).

Otherwise, just build it like you would any other tank class. Goblins have a base speed of 30, so you don't even have the mobility problems that a Gnome or Halfling would.

pife
2010-10-14, 10:54 AM
Umm, 3.0 book.. Book of Vile Darkness, I think? There is an NPC variant of goblins, in the section called "Goblins of Io Rach".. Basically, due to the tribal shamans creating this alchemical goo, they turn their warriors into these hulking (+4 Str and Con, if I recall, but also major dips in INT/WIS/CHA) beasts. Don't remember if it changes their size, but I think they become medium..

Anyway, they're "tanky"..

Hope it helps

Person_Man
2010-10-14, 11:03 AM
Tanking doesn't require Str. It requires strong defenses and battlefield control.

What is your ECL and books available? Do you have any preference for Druid, Cleric, Archivist, Binder, Incarnate, Totemist, Knight, Crusader, etc?

Traveler
2010-10-14, 11:31 AM
This is 5th level character and a free +1 LA if I ask nicely. Just about any book is allowed provided I know exactly were I'm pulling what from and I run it by the DM first.
I was looking a warblade, but I'm open to anything with high to hits and good hit points. Skills and magic can be left to the other characters.
Thanks for the advice so far, and now I need to build a tank apparatus :smallwink:.

Edit: Oh, and this might be a stupid question, but why is str not so important? I thought tank was a str and con type of build.

TheEmerged
2010-10-14, 11:34 AM
Darn it, you went and inspired me. I'll put this in another post though, since it's not what you're looking for and will be 4e anyway...

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 11:39 AM
Heh. Goblin tank. Heh heh. :smallbiggrin:
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/uploads//post-2-1092428439.jpg
Sometimes I just can't help myself.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 11:46 AM
This is 5th level character and a free +1 LA if I ask nicely.How about Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)? It's strong, but not as cheesy as a half-minotaur.
Just about any book is allowed provided I know exactly were I'm pulling what from and I run it by the DM first. I was looking a warblade, but I'm open to anything with high to hits and good hit points.Warblade isn't bad, but how about a crusader? Free maneuver recovery is great, and Devoted Spirit has excellent stuff for tanking.

I would also advice you not to overlook Swordsage. They can get very high AC, their HP is decent, they can get misschance without being casters, debuff enemies and the like.

Incarnate and Totemist are cool options too, if you fancy MoI. Binder can specialize on smashing face pretty well.

Edit: Oh, and this might be a stupid question, but why is str not so important? I thought tank was a str and con type of build.Depends on how you were planning on keeping the enemies focused on you. Tripping needs decent strength, and it can help you make yourself a threat the enemies can't ignore, but those are by no means the only ways to tank (insofar as it's possible to tank in 3.5).

There isn't a single "right" build or strategy for a tank.

Psyren
2010-10-14, 11:48 AM
Psychic Warrior, and make him a Blue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm) for the hell of it. Gobbos have no Wis penalty and Psywars can easily overcome the small size limitation. :smallsmile:

Telonius
2010-10-14, 12:13 PM
Depends on how you were planning on keeping the enemies focused on you. Tripping needs decent strength, and it can help you make yourself a threat the enemies can't ignore, but those are by no means the only ways to tank (insofar as it's possible to tank in 3.5).

There isn't a single "right" build or strategy for a tank.

Tripping is going to be kind of hard anyway, with the Small size giving you a -4.

It really is not going to hurt you that much on damage, though. Consider power attacking with a twohanded weapon. At STR 18, your damage bonus from Strength is going to be +6. That's +4 from normal plus half the bonus (4*0.5)=2 from wielding it two-handed. If you drop the Strength to 16, your damage bonus is +4. +3 from Str, and 1.5 (rounded down to 1) from wielding two-handed. So the difference is only two damage. The damage difference will be double if you get a critical hit, or have some other effect that multiplies damage like Spirited Charge. So at most, we're looking at 12 damage difference from a goblin with Spirited Charge who gets a critical hit with a lance.

That's not exactly nothing, especially at low levels; but it's minor and situational. Remember, most of melee class's bread and butter is Power Attack. PA does not depend on Strength, except for the 13 Str prerequisite. Some of the best power enhancers (Shock Trooper, Leap Attack) are keyed off Power Attack damage, not damage based on Strength.

Now normally taking a Strength penalty will hurt your overall damage in two ways: first by decreasing the amount of damage you deal, and second by decreasing the chance you hit by lowering the stat on which you're basing the attack. But with a Goblin, and most other Small creatures, that second is offset by the +1 you get to attack rolls. The odds of hitting are equal for both.

Person_Man
2010-10-14, 12:22 PM
Edit: Oh, and this might be a stupid question, but why is str not so important? I thought tank was a str and con type of build.

A +2ish bonus to hit and damage (assuming a -2 penalty, when you could get a +2 bonus from something else) is mathematically negligible. You could also replace it with Dex, Wis, or Cha using various methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), though I wouldn't suggest wasting resources to do so unless you have very specific build reasons (AoO specialist, Psychic Warrior, Bard/Crusader, etc).

Warblade is pretty east to tank with, though not as good at it as the Crusader. But there are literally hundreds of tank builds out there, so you're going to need to be more specific if you want advice beyond people's random ideas.

With small size, you're going to want to avoid Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, and anything that depends on having huge reach. That basically leaves Daze, Stand Still, Fear, and build specific abilities (maneuvers, vestiges, soulmelds, powers, etc).

Psyren
2010-10-14, 12:28 PM
Tripping is going to be kind of hard anyway, with the Small size giving you a -4.

Grab Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) + Strength of my Enemy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) Not only do you make yourself more likely to win the check, you simultaneously make your opponent more likely to fail it. If you can't find a spiked chain in your campaign, soulbound (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) one up and throw some nifty enhancements on it, then make it longer with Extend Reach. Use Hustle/Dimension Swap/Inconstant Location to hop around the battlefield to where you are needed most. Or forget weapons altogether and Metamorphosis into something big and bruisy, and use Metamorphic Transfer to gain its abilities.

Psionics ftw :smallcool:

Keld Denar
2010-10-14, 12:34 PM
Goblins are already small. You could go the reduce route and milk the size bonuses to AC. Something like Goblin PsyWar4/Stoneblessed3/BladeBravo10/PsyWar+3 would work out well. Stoneblessed allows you to be treated as a Gnome, which helps you get into Blade Bravo. Blade Bravo gives you a huge Dodge AC bonus for each size catagory larger than you your enemy is. PsyWar gives you Compression, which with Practiced Manifester can be augemented to a 2 size reduction. This can result in a rediculously high AC (and touch AC) vs anyone who desires to hurt you. Just get some bonus damage (stuff like Knowledge Devotion, or Craven on top of your Blade Bravo SA dice) and you'll be good to go.