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Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 10:32 AM
Hi there!

I'm just starting a new FR campaign with a new ECL 10 character. And i'm thinking about a "cheesy" guy.

I want to use shadow weave instead of weave and my race is shadovar. I talked with the DM and we agreed that i'll become Shade in game, later.

Other players in campaign are about 16 levels and i'm 6 levels behind them. So i want to have over-powered character for balancing this situation.

I was thinking about Cloistered Cleric of Shar (1) / Conjurer (4) / Dweomer Keeper (5)

But this build will lack at that point. Even at late game. DwK's Supernatural Magic is good but while i can't cast wish or miracle, it really does not help.

I choose conjurer because "Immediate Magic" from PHBII gives an awesome ability for them: Abrupt Jaunt. (you can move 10 feet as an immediate action (int modifier) times per day.)

But i know all of these tricks will not be enough in the game. So what are your ideas? Which classes/feats/templates should i choose as a Shadovar?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 10:46 AM
Shadow Weave, you say? Shadowcraft Mage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0). Ask your DM to waive the race requirement, going with the class requirement adaptation that rather than being gnome you must be a member of a cabal of shadow illusionists.

A simple yet powerful version would be:
ECL 10 = Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 3
ECL 20 = Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadow Adept 1/Shadowcrafter 6/Nightmare Spinner 1

Say hello to being a virtual INT based sorcerer with near infinite choices. Since you're starting at the sweet spot, level 10, you can ban Evocation and Conjuration. You'll be able to emulate most of the spells you want through Shadow Illusion with Silent Image.

I recommend not dropping your familiar, Abrupt Jaunt is nice but isn't nearly as good as what you can do with a familiar.

Squeeze in Signature Spell: Silent Image, load up on utility spells, and sacrifice them situationally for Heightened Silent Images when needed.

You'll have the spells/day of each level as a sorcerer, the spells known versatility of a wizard, the in-combat versatility of a sorcerer, and if you want to go ultra-cheese you can pick up XP free Miracles as a standard action out of your wizard spell slots. (Don't do that without making sure your DM won't have an aneurysm, he probably would)

You can replace Shadowcrafter with Dweomerkeeper if you like, which eliminates the need for Signature Spell. Shadowcrafter is just for shadow-flavor.

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 11:23 AM
My DM allows everything in game except that home-brew things. So that means i can cast xp free miracles as you say.

Turning all spell slots into heightened silent image is really cool. I will look for this.

and here is the another question: Can you add metamagic feats to that illusion spells?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 11:39 AM
My DM allows everything in game except that home-brew things. So that means i can cast xp free miracles as you say.

Turning all spell slots into heightened silent image is really cool. I will look for this.

and here is the another question: Can you add metamagic feats to that illusion spells?

To get the XP free miracle, you'll have to take Arcane Disciple: Luck, so talk to your DM about deities with the luck domain. Miracle is an Evocation, and using Silent Image Heightened to 9th level with Earth Spell makes the 9th level Silent Image a 10th level spell, making Miracle an acceptable choice since you must choose spells of 1 level lower than the spell cast. Since your casting Silent Image, you don't need to burn XP.

You may add metamagic feats to spells emulated via Shadow Illusion if you like, but personally I prefer sticking to battlefield control rather than trying to go all blasty.

The nice thing about using Signature Spell: Silent Image is that you can load up on goodies like divination, transmutation, enchantment and necromancy as spells memorized. Then you can swap out the memorized spell for a Shadow Illusion Silent Image if you need to mimic any conjuration or evocation. You may also dump any expensive components, like that needed for Forcecage, since you're casting Silent Image.

Another solid feat choice for a build like this is Arcane Mastery, allowing you to take 10 on CL checks. All your Shadow Illusions are affected by Spell Resistance even if the spell mimicked doesn't call for it.

The handbook I linked above goes into these types of builds in much more detail than I have. Almost everything you should need is there.

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 12:04 PM
Thank you BeholderSlayer for all the tips that you gave!

Keld Denar
2010-10-14, 01:16 PM
Le sigh...Arcane Disciple doesn't add Miracle to the Wiz/Sorc spell list. It adds it to your individual spell list. There is a difference. Shadow Illusion is very specific that the spell has to be on the Wiz/Sorc spell list. If Arcane Disciple added spells to the Wiz/Sorc list, you wouldn't even need to take it. You'd just have to know that somewhere in the world, there is a Wizard or Sorcerer with Arcane Disciple and use his list. And thats rediculous.

Also, don't drop Conjouration if you are going to be a Shadowcraft Mage. This is VERY important. Shadow Illusion can only duplicate the Creation, Calling, and Summoning subschools of Conjouration. That leaves off a large number of VERY useful Conjourations, including the entire Teleportation subschool. You'd be better off dropping Necromancy or Enchantment (or both with Focused Specialist).

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 02:42 PM
Le sigh...Arcane Disciple doesn't add Miracle to the Wiz/Sorc spell list. It adds it to your individual spell list.

No, it says that it adds the spells to your class list of arcane spells. There is a subtle yet important difference.

I suppose I second the motion to ban another school instead, probably Enchantment, but it depends on the type of campaign your DM usually runs. In some campaigns, Shadow Walk can perform like Teleport.

Keld Denar
2010-10-14, 02:45 PM
No, it says that it adds the spells to your class list of arcane spells.
This is exactly what I said. YOUR class list. Not THE wiz/sorc list. Shadow Illusion is very specific...it requires a spell to be a wiz/sorc spell to work. Look it up. Just because you are a wizard or sorcerer, and the spell is on YOUR list, doesn't make it a wiz/sorc spell. Not all rectangles are squares.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 02:52 PM
This is exactly what I said. YOUR class list. Not THE wiz/sorc list. Shadow Illusion is very specific...it requires a spell to be a wiz/sorc spell to work. Look it up. Just because you are a wizard or sorcerer, and the spell is on YOUR list, doesn't make it a wiz/sorc spell. Not all rectangles are squares.

It makes it a wiz/sorc spell for you, and that's all that matters. Very, very, VERY few people agree with your interpretation. Claiming that a feat that makes a spell a wizard/sorcerer spell doesn't make it a wizard/sorcerer spell is completely nonsensical.

Aharon
2010-10-14, 03:05 PM
@BeholderSlayer
Very few players who wish to play Shadowcraft mages agree with Keld Denars interpretation. And, as you pointed out that it is an interpretation - so is yours. The feat isn't as clear as it might be, and it can be argued both ways.

And some DMs may decide to side with the conservative interpretation :smallwink:

But seeing how the other characters will throw around level 9 spells next level, and he still has to wait quite some time, I don't think it matters that much.

Actually,

@Mordrigar
You might want to consider taking levels in a fast-progression class like Ur-Priest or BeholderMage. This will be really cheesy, but enable you with the other players' characters throwing around 9th level spells. This highly depends on the kind of characters the other guys are playing.

Why are you starting at ECL 10, anyway? You literally won't be able to contribute anything meaningful without cheese. I think it might be best to ask your DM to allow you to start at the same level the other PCs have.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 03:10 PM
@BeholderSlayer
Very few players who wish to play Shadowcraft mages agree with Keld Denars interpretation. And, as you pointed out that it is an interpretation - so is yours. The feat isn't as clear as it might be, and it can be argued both ways.

I am aware that mine is an interpretation as well, I just wanted to make it clear that's what both his and mine are, and not RAW.

I choose to follow the interpretation that makes logical sense...the one where a sorcerer/wizard spell is a sorcerer/wizard spell.

If the DM doesn't decide to let him start at an equal level, he should still be alright. A strong level 10 Shadowcraft Mage can easily add value to a level 16 party just hanging out in the back and tossing battlefield control.

Aharon
2010-10-14, 03:40 PM
@BeholderSlayer
=>SCM
The whole list business is a bit confusing. I admit the last discussion about it I read is quite some time ago, but I got the impression both interpretations are equally valid, due to a lack of clear definitions.
=>Contributing
An SCM in a non-optimised party might. When the party is full of Tier 1 (or Tier 2) character, though, he won't be that useful. Sure, he gets shadow streamers. That isn't very impressive when the rest of the group doles out Time Stops and Gates.

Keld Denar
2010-10-14, 03:48 PM
Is Divine Power a wizard spell? Is Barkskin? How about Giant Size?

I look at the description of those spells, and I see Druid2/Plant2. I see Cleric4/War4. I see Wu Jen 7/Heroism 7. Nowhere do I see Wizard X. Its not a wizard spell. Just because YOU are a wizard and YOU can cast it, don't make it a Wizard spell. If I took Sword of the Arcane Order as a Paladin, which allows me to learn Wizard spells in my Paladin slots, could I memorize Barkskin? No. Why not? Because its not a Wizard spell. Its still a Druid spell that a character may have special dispensation to learn, memorize, and cast.

Otherwise, technically, due to the presence of classes like Recaster or Wyrm Wizard, who can also add spells to their own personal spell lists, it unleashes a slippery slope that essentially makes EVERY spell a wiz/sorc spell by extension. Every spell...ever printed. All of them.

Its either all of them, or none of them. Consistancy across the board. I don't see any explicit exceptions, so which is it?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 03:59 PM
Is Divine Power a wizard spell? Is Barkskin? How about Giant Size?
They are for a single character if they get them added to their class spell list. Heck, you don't even need to add Wu Jen spells to the class spell list, there are items that let you cast them. There's nothing stopping a sorcerer or wizard from casting any spell classified as arcane in existence besides lacking a few coins.


I look at the description of those spells, and I see Druid2/Plant2. I see Cleric4/War4. I see Wu Jen 7/Heroism 7. Nowhere do I see Wizard X. Its not a wizard spell. Just because YOU are a wizard and YOU can cast it, don't make it a Wizard spell. If I took Sword of the Arcane Order as a Paladin, which allows me to learn Wizard spells in my Paladin slots, could I memorize Barkskin? No. Why not? Because its not a Wizard spell. Its still a Druid spell that a character may have special dispensation to learn, memorize, and cast.
You're overlooking the fact that Arcane Disciple makes the appropriate domain spells sorcerer/wizard spells for that character. Just because a spell is not generally a wizard/sorc spell doesn't mean it can't be for a specific character. Specific trumps general (i.e. just because it doesn't say Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't mean it can't be made into a Wizard/Sorcerer spell for one character).


Otherwise, technically, due to the presence of classes like Recaster or Wyrm Wizard, who can also add spells to their own personal spell lists, it unleashes a slippery slope that essentially makes EVERY spell a wiz/sorc spell by extension. Every spell...ever printed. All of them. They are added to the sorc/wiz list for that particular character, and if they have a spell that can replicate other arcane spells, they may replicate them. Also, slippery slope arguments are fallacious by their very nature.


Its either all of them, or none of them. Consistancy across the board. I don't see any explicit exceptions, so which is it?
This paragraph seems marginally incoherent.

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 04:17 PM
Keld Denar, BeholderSlayer, Misters, i don't want to be rude but your arguments look like slightly off topic. Having that spell as a sor/wiz is up to DM if you ask me. And i'll let this to my DM. But thanks both of you.

@Aharon
I start with ECL because my old character (Paladin (Fallen) / Wizard 4 / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Incantatrix (1) ) died in same campaign. According to our rules, I had to start at -1 level of the lowest player in party.
I know this is not a fair rule but we decided it before campaign started.

Before my death party was like,

Level 16 multiclass (me),
Level 16 Cleric of Corellon / Seeker of Misty Isle / Arcane archer
Level 12 Cleric of Shandakul (He became Saint at last game)
Level 15 Druid 3 Sorcerer 4 Arcane Hierophant 8
and a level 11 character from ToB

We all started with ECL 11 but non-16 level guys died at least once.

On the other hand, my old character can not be resurrected because he was faithless. So when he died he went to Kelemvor's Wall of Faithless as another brick.

By the way, if you explain how could i become Beholder Mage without being a beholder i would be happy. :) First think that i think is polymorphing into beholder, take class levels and back to normal form but i'm not sure that would work by RAW.

Ah, before i forget, My DM allows EVERYTHING that could done by RAW.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 04:27 PM
@Aharon
I start with ECL because my old character (Paladin (Fallen) / Wizard 4 / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Incantatrix (1) ) died in same campaign. According to our rules, I had to start at -1 level of the lowest player in party.
I know this is not a fair rule but we decided it before campaign started.

Before my death party was like,

Level 16 multiclass (me),
Level 16 Cleric of Corellon / Seeker of Misty Isle / Arcane archer
Level 12 Cleric of Shandakul (He became Saint at last game)
Level 15 Druid 3 Sorcerer 4 Arcane Hierophant 8
and a level 11 character from ToB

We all started with ECL 11 but non-16 level guys died at least once.

On the other hand, my old character can not be resurrected because he was faithless. So when he died he went to Kelemvor's Wall of Faithless as another brick.

By the way, if you explain how could i become Beholder Mage without being a beholder i would be happy. :) First think that i think is polymorphing into beholder, take class levels and back to normal form but i'm not sure that would work by RAW.

Ah, before i forget, My DM allows EVERYTHING that could done by RAW.

If you were allowed to go for Beholder Mage, I pity your DM. Pity, pity, pity....

It's possible to start Beholder Mage at level 2. Be an Elan. Take Assume Supernatural Ability twice as flaw feats. When you have enough XP to get level 2, use the wealth you have (should be level 2 wealth) and pay for Polymorph Any Object, this is permanent because Elans are aberrations. Assume supernatural ability the beholder's eye rays and antimagic eye. Put out your central eye on a fence post. Take beholder mage level 1 at level 2. Progress to level 10, so you're a level 1 WhateverWizard/9 Beholder Mage. Now you have 9th level spells, and cast 10 spells per round. You cast spontaneously as a sorcerer with access to your entire wizard spellbook at all times. Proceed to completely wreck your DM's game.

I really, really, REALLY REALLY suggest not going Beholder Mage.

Edit: without looking at my books, you might have to wait till you are about to gain level 3 to get the PAO. Either way....bad news. Bad news.

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 04:46 PM
LOL! I can't imagine that a big-blind-eye flying over Silverymoon bridge :smallbiggrin:
Everything is fine with that build but only one thing: Beholders are monsters and they don't welcome in every place.
Is there a way to stay human(oid) while levelling on BM?

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 04:51 PM
LOL! I can't imagine that a big-blind-eye flying over Silverymoon bridge :smallbiggrin:
Everything is fine with that build but only one thing: Beholders are monsters and they don't welcome in every place.
Is there a way to stay human(oid) while levelling on BM?

No, not really. Maybe persistent reflective disguise? Can't remember the text of that spell. It'd have to be persisted illusions, anyway.

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 04:56 PM
Maybe lens (wondrous item) of reflective disguise could help.

According to SRD:
"Use-activated or continuous items" cost, Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

Reflective Disguise has 10 min / level duration and there is aditional x1.5 for that price.

I can have that item for 18.000 gp. Fair price.

Endarire
2010-10-14, 05:52 PM
You could go Dragonborn Gnome Illusionist1*/Shadowcraft Mage5/Incantatrix10/Full Casting+4.

*Races of Stone Substitution Level Optional

Heighten Spell + Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage 45) lets you meet the spell requirements. Heighten a net of shadows (Spell Compendium 147) to level 4 using a level 1 slot.

Skill-wise, does your DM let you normally buy cross-class skills up to class skill max? For example, can you spend 8 skill points to max Bluff and 8 more to max Hide? If so, you're golden. Else, ask about the Shadowcraft Mage adaptation for non-gnomes (Races of Stone 120 on the left, above PrC entry reqs).

Also, with racial adaptation, you can be a Beholder Shadowcraft Mage. Really. Add Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge if you fancy.

If you took Mercantile Background and spent all your 1200 starting gold (900 from level 1 + 300 feat), you could afford PAO and nothing else. (You still start with a free set of clothes and your spellbook, if a Wizard.)

Mordrigar
2010-10-14, 06:26 PM
I will start the game with more than 200.000 gold if i chose Shadovar as a race. We have home-made starting gold system. ("Game starting HD" x 3990) (x6 if your character is a noble)

And yes, i don't need to become gnome for shadowcraft mage. But being a beholder mage looks better than shadowcraft. I'll look for it.

Andion Isurand
2010-10-14, 11:12 PM
You could go Dragonborn Gnome Illusionist1*/Shadowcraft Mage5/Incantatrix10/Full Casting+4.

*Races of Stone Substitution Level Optional

Heighten Spell + Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage 45) lets you meet the spell requirements. Heighten a net of shadows (Spell Compendium 147) to level 4 using a level 1 slot.

Skill-wise, does your DM let you normally buy cross-class skills up to class skill max? For example, can you spend 8 skill points to max Bluff and 8 more to max Hide? If so, you're golden. Else, ask about the Shadowcraft Mage adaptation for non-gnomes (Races of Stone 120 on the left, above PrC entry reqs).

Also, with racial adaptation, you can be a Beholder Shadowcraft Mage. Really. Add Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge if you fancy.

If you took Mercantile Background and spent all your 1200 starting gold (900 from level 1 + 300 feat), you could afford PAO and nothing else. (You still start with a free set of clothes and your spellbook, if a Wizard.)


I thought that Heighten Spell is applied only once like any other metamagic feat, its just that the spell slot adjustment can vary.

//////////////////////////////////////

also... You might be interested in the Arcane Gnome from Dragon 291
which is like a regular 3.0 gnome, except
* add +2 Int and -2 Wis
* lose speak with animals
* gain UMD as class skill
* favored class: wizard

then add the Arctic template from Dragon 306 and your Dragonborn Arcane Gnome would get...

-2 str, -2 dex, +6 con, +2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha