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DragonsAion
2010-10-14, 04:17 PM
Ok, so i'm throwing myself at the feet of the playground and asking you all for your wisdom and insignts on the best way to Optimze a 10th level scout.

I want to play up the whole spy/ slient killer angle.

sonofzeal
2010-10-14, 04:22 PM
Swift Hunter.



....that's about it, yeah. It's a feat that lets you stack Ranger and Scout levels for stuff, and is generally considered pretty awesome. Also "Improved Skirmish", for +2d6 damage and +1 AC. Between those two, you'll be doing pretty well.

DragonsAion
2010-10-14, 04:30 PM
I've seen that but everyone seems to go full ranger after that. I might be the only one that dips 2 levels in to ranger and then takes 8 levels of scout.

Anyways to strengthen melee combat? I know a scout is not made for it but it can/ will happen.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 04:32 PM
For completeness sake, here is the Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0).

Also if you can try to get Mystic Ranger aproved (it is from dragon magazine), the spells are a great way to improve your combat abilties.

sonofzeal
2010-10-14, 04:34 PM
I've seen that but everyone seems to go full ranger after that. I might be the only one that dips 2 levels in to ranger and then takes 8 levels of scout.

Anyways to strengthen melee combat? I know a scout is not made for it but it can/ will happen.
Melee combat is still skirmishable. Try to get extra sources of movement though, the ability to 10-foot-step is key. I played a melee Scout using "Agile Shield Fighter" and shield bash, and "Martial Study: Sudden Leap" for mobility. If I'd wanted to go higher-optimization, I would have hunted down a pair of Cyran Gliding Shoes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a). And Swift Hunter is still worthwhile if you stay on the Scout side.

DragonsAion
2010-10-14, 04:56 PM
Sorry, but no tome of battle here. DM says it's WAY over powered. I was thinking of going human or shifter for race. I might go longstrider shifter with the longstrider elite feat. that would give me a total of 20 added on top of what scout gives me.

Also has anyone played a Catfolk scout?

sonofzeal
2010-10-14, 05:02 PM
Sorry, but no tome of battle here. DM says it's WAY over powered. I was thinking of going human or shifter for race. I might go longstrider shifter with the longstrider elite feat. that would give me a total of 20 added on top of what scout gives me.

Also has anyone played a Catfolk scout?
If Martial Study is out, I'd definitely get those Gliding Shoes.

And Catfolk Pounce is awesome. ^^

DragonsAion
2010-10-14, 05:12 PM
I'll look into the shoes. Do you know where I can find them? I have the MIC so I'm free to chose from it.

for feats I'm thinking swift hunter,dodge, mobity, and spring attack. For a class based on needing to move ten feet spring attack seems like a good thing.

sonofzeal
2010-10-14, 05:19 PM
I'll look into the shoes. Do you know where I can find them? I have the MIC so I'm free to chose from it.

for feats I'm thinking swift hunter,dodge, mobity, and spring attack. For a class based on needing to move ten feet spring attack seems like a good thing.
Feats sound good, although I'd really try and get Improved Skirmish in there. And the shoes were a hyperlink, just click on it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 06:34 PM
IF you go spring attack route, I sugges you try this little combo

Battle jump, is a feat from Unaproachable east which if you jump from at least 5 feet over your enemy, you may charge, now as jumps are made as part of a move action, you can combine it with Spring attack.

the DC to jump 10 vertical is 40 (though but doable) let's say 13 ranks + 4 from strength + 10 from ring of impoved jumping +2 Synergy bonus from 5 ranks in tumble + 2 for having a 40 ft base speed. so 33 jump modifier, you can do the jump on a 7 or more. I say the probabilities are good arent they?

See if you can get pounce and now you can full attack on a Spring attack

Greenish
2010-10-14, 06:36 PM
IF you go spring attack route, I sugges you try this little combo

Battle jump, is a feat from Unaproachable east which if you jump from at least 5 feet over your enemy, you may charge, now as jumps are made as part of a move action, you can combine it with Spring attack.The Charge is part of the move action. You don't need Spring Attack to keep moving, you can just use your other move action.

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 06:42 PM
Person Man's thread about getting free movement, pounce, or their equivalents.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-14, 06:59 PM
Dip a level in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion and the turn attempts to fuel it. This lets you move then make a full attack, maximizing your Skirmish damage output. Much more reliable than those silly shoes.

Flickerdart
2010-10-14, 07:03 PM
Dip a level in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion and the turn attempts to fuel it. This lets you move then make a full attack, maximizing your Skirmish damage output. Much more reliable than those silly shoes.
Better yet, dip a level of Cleric and a level of Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem). Charge, full attack, walk away. Your enemies will have trouble pinning you down.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 07:09 PM
Better yet, dip a level of Cleric and a level of Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem). Charge, full attack, walk away. Your enemies will have trouble pinning you down.Combo with HiPS and good Hide skill.

dgnslyr
2010-10-14, 08:31 PM
Combo with HiPS and good Hide skill.

So you leap out of the shadows, tear out somebody's liver, cooly walk away, and vanish? Sounds pretty awesome!

HiPS won't be too much of a problem at later levels when you have a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. The only problem I see is getting Hide as a class skill with the ones you'll be working with.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 08:53 PM
HiPS won't be too much of a problem at later levels when you have a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis?Well, that gives the weaker version of HiPS. A shadowdancer dip might be more prudent.

As for classes, well, Revenant Blade is pretty nice. Move Silently and Hide as class skills, skillpoints to burn, class level as Competence bonus to those checks… A build I'd been kicking around was something like ranger2/barb1/fighter2/RB5/cleric1/shadowdancer1 and then something.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 09:21 PM
The Charge is part of the move action. You don't need Spring Attack to keep moving, you can just use your other move action.

Spring attacks offers you another attack, and it opens the rapid blitz and bounding assault lines for even more attack (good in a swift hunter build) also you can avoid the AoO without tumbling.

Also IIRC Both bounding assault and Rapid Blitz let you move between attacks, so you can arguably make even more pouncing charges....


Hey this is tempting to combine in gestalt with warblade (or swordsage) to get the moongoose manoubers and leaping dragon stance...

Greenish
2010-10-14, 09:22 PM
Spring attacks offers you another attack, and it opens the rapid blitz and bounding assault lines for even more attack (good in a swift hunter build) also you can avoid the AoO without tumbling.Get higher move speed and jump many times to trigger Battle Jump, then scamper?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 09:24 PM
:shrugs: just an idea I wanted to share (though the full credit of combining them should go to True Shinken, as he posted that combo)

Curmudgeon
2010-10-14, 10:16 PM
The Charge is part of the move action.
That's not correct, because a charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) is a special full-round action. Plus you can't combine a charge and Spring Attack since Spring Attack requires a move action, which is split around your attack.

From the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5 (http://www.amazon.com/Special-Handbook-Rulebook-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786934328/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287111686&sr=1-5):

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. It's sometimes difficult to keep up with all the rules, especially "stealth errata" like this. But that's the RAW. Spring Attack requires a move action, and a charge never includes a move action.

Zaq
2010-10-14, 10:23 PM
Actually, Curmudgeon, I believe that the topic was that special funky charge from Battle Jump, not the normal kind of charge anyone can do.

dgnslyr
2010-10-14, 10:26 PM
Well, that gives the weaker version of HiPS. A shadowdancer dip might be more prudent.



I'm sure there are plenty of fun ways and plenty of practical ways, with some overlap, to cover a battlefield in darkness.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-14, 10:31 PM
Actually, Curmudgeon, I believe that the topic was that special funky charge from Battle Jump, not the normal kind of charge anyone can do.
But that doesn't apply, either. Battle Jump's "funky charge" is triggered by dropping, not by using a move action. Dropping is dependent on gravity and independent of character speed.
move action

An action that is the equivalent of the character moving his speed.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 10:34 PM
But that doesn't apply, either. Battle Jump's "funky charge" is triggered by dropping, not by using a move action. Dropping is dependent on gravity and independent of character speed.
Thats why you use spring attack to move and hence jump over the enemy dropping over him and thus triggering battle jump.

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 10:41 PM
Could one charge someone on the other side of a hostile if one is able to jump over the hostile?

true_shinken
2010-10-14, 10:57 PM
But that doesn't apply, either. Battle Jump's "funky charge" is triggered by dropping, not by using a move action. Dropping is dependent on gravity and independent of character speed.

Yeah, a DC 40 Jump check allows to drop from 5 feet up on a Medium target.
Nice to know Spring Attack was stealth errata'd to allow for standard action attacks. Martial adepts and Duskblades might even consider it now!

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 12:08 AM
Thats why you use spring attack to move and hence jump over the enemy dropping over him and thus triggering battle jump.
That's not a motion that's permitted either by physics (where jump arcs are parabolic) or the limited options of D&D Jump checks. You have the following choices:

Long Jump
High Jump
Hop Up
Jumping Down
Battle Jump requires dropping down. Jumping Down certainly would work for Battle Jump, but that doesn't use the move action required by Spring Attack. Long Jump would allow you to make the height but not drop down; instead you'd come in at a 22˝ degree angle (mostly across instead of down). High Jump would also let you gain the height but not drop into the target's space unless you started at the same horizontal offset (in the target's square, or directly above or below), so you'd probably need to be able to legally share the target's space (be at least 3 sizes smaller than the target). Hop Up is the only other possible legal use of Jump for this combination, but would require your waist height exceed the target's head height by at least 5'.

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 12:17 AM
That's not a motion that's permitted either by physics (where jump arcs are parabolic) or the limited options of D&D Jump checks.

Battle Jump does not mention angles or anything, so a long jump would suffice. You are dropping from a high point to another, lower point, aren't you?
Even if you won't agree with that, there is another way: use Tumble to move past his space, while you are moving through his square, Jump up.
Presto.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 01:09 AM
Even if you won't agree with that, there is another way: use Tumble to move past his space, while you are moving through his square, Jump up.
Presto.
OK, now that's a useful approach that works within the rules. Thank you. I'm not sure how many characters are going to be able to clear their opponent's head height by 5', but this seems like a solid tactic for those who can.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 05:00 AM
Nice to know Spring Attack was stealth errata'd to allow for standard action attacks. Martial adepts and Duskblades might even consider it now!It wasn't, and that's not what Curmudgeon said.

High Jump would also let you gain the height but not drop into the target's space unless you started at the same horizontal offsetBut do you need to drop into target's space, or is having the reach from the square you drop to enough?

Oh, and what happens if you successfully drop into the target's space? Are you pushed to an adjacent square, or do you (or the enemy) fall prone in the square you both now occupy?

Frosty
2010-10-15, 05:32 AM
It wasn't, and that's not what Curmudgeon said.
But do you need to drop into target's space, or is having the reach from the square you drop to enough?

Oh, and what happens if you successfully drop into the target's space? Are you pushed to an adjacent square, or do you (or the enemy) fall prone in the square you both now occupy?
The correct answer is to also have levels in Fighter so and take the Knockback feat so that when you successfuly drop and perform a charge you ALSO bull-rush him prone onto the ground.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 05:45 AM
But do you need to drop into target's space, or is having the reach from the square you drop to enough?
Based on the wording of the feat, it does look like you've got to drop on them rather than beside them.
You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. For example, a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern would suffice for jumping on a Medium-sized creature, while a ledge 15 feet high is required for a jumping on a Large creature.

gomipile
2010-10-15, 05:50 AM
Another nice trick is to get 6 or so ranks in Ride so you can always make a DC 10 Ride check. That way you can move on your mount and full attack with a shortbow. The only catch is that your mount can only single move if you want to do this.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 05:55 AM
Another nice trick is to get 6 or so ranks in Ride so you can always make a DC 10 Ride check. That way you can move on your mount and full attack with a shortbow. The only catch is that your mount can only single move if you want to do this.Your mount can double move or even run, and you can still make a full attack, albeit with penalty. You don't have to make a check, either, with a combat trained mount. You can use Composite Longbow when mounted.

The problem is that the stupid errata claims mounted movement doesn't count for skirmish. :smallfurious:

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 06:43 AM
The problem is that the stupid errata claims mounted movement doesn't count for skirmish. :smallfurious:

Which makes the scout variant that gets a mount companion very, very sad.

Forged Fury
2010-10-15, 07:03 AM
Which makes the scout variant that gets a mount companion very, very sad.
I always wondered if you could get around this with liberal use of the fast mount/dismount option of the Ride skill (free actions) and a specific interpretation of what it means to "use" the skirmish ability.

If use incorporates all of the triggering factors then :smallfrown:
If use simply means gaining the AC and damage benefits of skirmish then :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-10-15, 07:08 AM
Which makes the scout variant that gets a mount companion very, very sad.It makes me sad, too. It is such an elegant and fitting option.

I always wondered if you could get around this with liberal use of the fast mount/dismount option of the Ride skill (free actions) and a specific interpretation of what it means to "use" the skirmish ability.

If use incorporates all of the triggering factors then :smallfrown:
If use simply means gaining the AC and damage benefits of skirmish then :smallsmile:Well, Skirmish requires you to move 10' away from the square you started your turn in to trigger. I believe the errata merely says that the mount's movement doesn't count towards that.

Though, now that I think of it, you could use a mount to bypass it: start adjacent to the (Large) mount, mount it as a free action, dismount as a free action on the other side of the mount. :smallwink:

Forged Fury
2010-10-15, 07:12 AM
Though, now that I think of it, you could use a mount to bypass it: start adjacent to the (Large) mount, mount it as a free action, dismount as a free action on the other side of the mount. :smallwink:
LOL! I imagine there is an Old Spice joke to be made somewhere in here as well.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 07:19 AM
LOL! I imagine there is an Old Spice joke to be made somewhere in here as well.If you have a mount, you could also train it to Bull Rush you, and voluntarily fail the check.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 07:41 AM
If you have a mount, you could also train it to Bull Rush you, and voluntarily fail the check.
Sorry, but no. Rules Compendium has increased the list of things you're allowed to "fail" at, to include the following:

All saving throws. (Player's Handbook limited this to saving throws against spells only.)
Your DEX bonus to AC, but only when falling.
Yes, that's the entire list. D&D is a game of heroic strivers, not ignoble quitters, so generally failure isn't an allowed option under the rules.

Bull rush requires you to roll your Strength check and accept the consequences.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 07:46 AM
Sorry, but no. Rules Compendium has increased the list of things you're allowed to "fail" at, to include the following:

All saving throws. (Player's Handbook limited this to saving throws against spells only.)
Your DEX bonus to AC, but only when falling.
Yes, that's the entire list. D&D is a game of heroic strivers, not ignoble quitters, so generally failure isn't an allowed option under the rules.

Bull rush requires you to roll your Strength check and accept the consequences.Ah, my bad. Still, even a big and strong animal isn't terribly expensive, and scout isn't very strength focused.

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 09:26 AM
Though, now that I think of it, you could use a mount to bypass it: start adjacent to the (Large) mount, mount it as a free action, dismount as a free action on the other side of the mount. :smallwink:

That gives me a new idea related to the commoner-railgun line of instantaneous communications.

The pony express of teleportation.

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 09:40 AM
It wasn't, and that's not what Curmudgeon said.

I fail how to see explicitly mentioning that Spring Attack splits a move action and requires an attack does not allow you to use it with standard actions attacks. Actually, I fail to see a reason to mention move actions in the text at all if not to support this. Please enlighten me.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-15, 09:44 AM
I fail how to see explicitly mentioning that Spring Attack splits a move action and requires an attack does not allow you to use it with standard actions attacks. Actually, I fail to see a reason to mention move actions in the text at all if not to support this. Please enlighten me.


Attack action is not the same wordas standard action.
A Standard can be a attack action, but you can't do a standation action if you only have the attack action.

A= attack action
C= Standard

All A=C
But C does not =all A

Spring attack is only A.
If you have to use C, can't use Spring attack to do it.

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 10:11 AM
Attack action is not the same wordas standard action.
A Standard can be a attack action, but you can't do a standation action if you only have the attack action.

A= attack action
C= Standard

All A=C
But C does not =all A

Spring attack is only A.
If you have to use C, can't use Spring attack to do it.

A standard action attack like I mentioned is still an attack action. That was my point.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 10:16 AM
A standard action attack like I mentioned is still an attack action. That was my point.Yes. It's also a standard action. Not all attack actions are standard actions though, and the feat says nothing about allowing a standard action.

Most ToB strikes, for example, are standard actions that allow you to make an attack. That doesn't mean that initiating a maneuver is an attack action.

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 10:18 AM
Yes. It's also a standard action. Not all attack actions are standard actions though, and the feat says nothing about allowing a standard action.

Most ToB strikes, for example, are standard actions that allow you to make an attack. That doesn't mean that initiating a maneuver is an attack action.
Ah, I see your point now.
What is the reason for said late errata, then?

Greenish
2010-10-15, 10:22 AM
Ah, I see your point now.
What is the reason for said late errata, then?To clarify that in Spring Attack, your attack happened during a single Move Action, whereas the older text seemed to suggest that Spring Attack happened between two move actions.

SRD: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

Special Edition (quoted above by Curmudgeon): When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 10:26 AM
...Yeah, that didn't neet any errata at all. Makes sense to stealth it.

Pechvarry
2010-10-15, 11:47 AM
Wow, this is getting off topic fast.


Better yet, dip a level of Cleric and a level of Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem). Charge, full attack, walk away. Your enemies will have trouble pinning you down.

To the OP: I'm against the above choice. If your DM thinks Tome of Battle is overpowered, he will not appreciate you getting full attacks with extra actions to spare, and so on. Stick with one or the other (probably travel devotion/cleric dip).

Counterargument: I suppose if he thinks ToB and you want him to accept it, going for a full-on Swift Hunter build with all sorts of extra tricks could convince him otherwise. But that's just as likely to make him run core-only. If you want to prove a power-level point, play a Druid.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 01:12 PM
The OP doesn't seem to want to prove a point so much as play a character, and I have suggested an effective way of doing so.

Fun fact: Flyby Attack allows you to take a standard action, and also has none of Spring Attack's prerequisites. As long as you have a fly speed, you qualify.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 01:40 PM
Fun fact: Flyby Attack allows you to take a standard action, and also has none of Spring Attack's prerequisites. As long as you have a fly speed, you qualify.Same holds true for Swim-By Attack, amusingly enough.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 02:51 PM
Is there a climb-by attack? A burrow-by attack? :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-10-15, 03:08 PM
Is there a climb-by attack? A burrow-by attack? :smallbiggrin:A Burrow-By Attack with a caster or a martial adept would be awesome.

Hmm, Asherati have "Sand swim"…

DragonsAion
2010-10-15, 03:16 PM
this might be a dumb questions but whould shadowdancer work with a swift hunter build?

Greenish
2010-10-15, 03:21 PM
this might be a dumb questions but whould shadowdancer work with a swift hunter build?If you mean to use the Shadow Jump, no dice. It has rather limited uses per day, and even worse, it's a standard action that also prevents you from taking any other actions on that turn.

One level dip for HiPS isn't bad though, if you like hiding.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 03:23 PM
this might be a dumb questions but whould shadowdancer work with a swift hunter build?
You'd get Hide in Plain Sight a lot faster than just by advancing either Scout (level 14) or Ranger (level 17), but it doesn't provide any special benefit that helps either Scout or Ranger abilities. Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is a great enabler for sneak attack, but not skirmish or favored enemies.

DragonsAion
2010-10-15, 04:16 PM
Just thought I'd ask. any reason for shadow jump being a standard action instead of a move?

Frosty
2010-10-15, 04:34 PM
Because Shadow Dancers Don't Get Nice Things beyond the first level.

DragonsAion
2010-10-15, 04:51 PM
think it would break anything if you changed it to a move action? it would make spring attack that much more sexy for them.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 04:52 PM
Just thought I'd ask. any reason for shadow jump being a standard action instead of a move?
Because Shadowdancer was designed when melee wasn't allowed to have nice things. Later prestige classes (Teflammar Shadowlord comes to mind) provide considerably better mobility options.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 04:53 PM
think it would break anything if you changed it to a move action? it would make spring attack that much more sexy for them.It would be pretty okay as a move action. There are a few combos that come to mind, but it's not any more broken than stuff already in game.

I'm not sure how it'd interact with Spring Attack, though.

DragonsAion
2010-10-15, 05:01 PM
sping attack = move-attack-move

so with shadow jump as a move action you could = shadow jump- attack-shadow jump.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 05:06 PM
sping attack = move-attack-move

so with shadow jump as a move action you could = shadow jump- attack-shadow jump.Spring Attack is actually mo-attack-ve. With move action Shadow Jump, you wouldn't appear until you complete the move, so it'd be rather difficult to take an attack in the middle.

DragonsAion
2010-10-15, 05:18 PM
:smallconfused: really? well every game I've been has played the other way since with a 30ft move speed you could move 15ft-attack-then move back 15ft.......ok I bow my head to your wisdow.

but at min shadow jump is a 10ft movement so you should still have 10 feet to play with.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 05:32 PM
:smallconfused: really? well every game I've been has played the other way since with a 30ft move speed you could move 15ft-attack-then move back 15ft.......ok I bow my head to your wisdow.You can do that, or move 5', attack, and move 25', and so fort.

The point is, it's a single move action, which you interrupt to attack, then resume. If you had a move action teleport, you would disappear in the beginning of the action, then reappear someplace else in the end of the action, so I'm not sure you could pop into existence to attack there in between.