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Morithias
2010-10-14, 05:39 PM
Note: This is basically me asking you what you think of a concept for the background of my latest character. Since however this post is going to be 'fluff' rather than mechanics, I felt it best fit under roleplaying instead of homebrew. Moderators, please move this if I have made this mistake. Thank you.

~Character~

10 year old Crystal is a freak addict to pain. She enjoyed playing up herself as a Maiden of Pain, eventually she was cursed by the goddess Loviatar. To go through 9 stages of torture. She was cursed to be addicted to pain as a drug, slowly she loses ways to satisfy her addiction. Also, whenever she harmed another living being, she would feel the total pain that she has ever commited on anyone.

Note: Whenever it says "no longer able to be damaged/commit damage" it means in terms of triggering her pain sensors a.k.a feeding her addiction. Stage 4 the most poorly worded, means that if an orc hits her for 24 damage with a greataxe, she still takes the hp damage, but lacks the ability to feel the pain from the damage.

Stage 1: Loses ability to commit non-lethal damage to herself.

She realized she could take care of her addiction by cutting herself with a knife, but never really being dangerous. She was able to do this for one year, before the first stage stepped in, after which she freaked and started to try other things. (Note that she still takes said damage mechanically, but she cannot feel the pain from it.)

Stage 2: Others cannot commit non-lethal damage to her pain wise.

She has now loss the ability to rely on others to cure her addiction, now the only way to do anything to satisfy it is to harm others.

Stage 3: She can no longer commit non-lethal damage to others.

Addiction....getting worse...

Stage 4: Other can no longer damage her period.

Now there is only one way to satisfy her addiction...to harm others for real.

Stage 5: Loses her sense of touch.

Now there is no way to satisfy her addiction, eventually the addiction loses her mind and she kills herself.

Stage 6: The deal

The goddess of pain made a deal with the devil Asmodeus, not to turn her into soul energy, and rather make her fight in the blood war. She cannot be killed, if she is, she is remade after one day back in Baator. In return after repaying her debt, they will restore her sense of touch.

Stage 7: The bite

The sense of touch is restored, however any pain rivals that of only a bite from a normal sized bug. They say they will return her pain to normal if she does more work.

Stage 8: She finishes her deal

They restore her sense of touch to normal, she fights to continue to satisfy her addiction. They eventually say they will return her to life without her addiction if she does more work.

Stage 9: Time loop

They release her alright....back to the real world born as another girl. At the age of 10 the girl will come home to find a potion that she will have no choice but to drink (her body will literally force her to do it). It will delete her current memories and return her old ones....sending her through the stages again over the next 15 years, until she commits suicide again and does the last 4 stages once again, forced to fall for the trick again and again by the addiction corrupting her mind.

She killed herself for the first time 10 cycles ago. The character the PC's meet after drinking the potion is a complete addict. A freak that rivals lady macbeth, made only more freaky by the fact that she's a 10 year old girl, that can't even be murdered due to the curse forcing her to only be able to die by her own hand.

(I was going for a nightmare fuel sort of thing.)

mucat
2010-10-14, 05:53 PM
My thoughts are: way too complex to hit home powerfully in a game. Reading this, the first few stages of the process seemed horrifying...and after that, if became a weird logic game. If she appeared in a game, you would have to do an awful lot of the worst kind of exposition -- "All right, players, sit down and shut up while I explain things to you" -- just to get them to grasp the logic game, let alone to feel a strong sense of horror or sympathy.

I would make her situation much simpler. Instead of having to explain a long, detailed dynamic before the players can grasp what has happened to her, come up with a few awful, haunting details of how she acts, and let those be the glimpses they get into her private hell...

The Glyphstone
2010-10-14, 05:57 PM
I'm curious how the mechanics are going to replicate your fluff, though. If her background says that she can't die by anything except her own hands, what happens when an Orc with a greataxe crits her at level 1? (Insert bigger monster/spell for appropriate-CR to starting game here).

Morithias
2010-10-14, 06:03 PM
I'm curious how the mechanics are going to replicate your fluff, though. If her background says that she can't die by anything except her own hands, what happens when an Orc with a greataxe crits her at level 1? (Insert bigger monster/spell for appropriate-CR to starting game here).

"And I must scream"

That is pretty much it, she becomes a head and a body, alive and aware, but unable to do anything until someone puts it back.

Premier
2010-10-15, 04:42 AM
You posted this here, so I guess you want some feedback. Well, I might come across as harsh, but here's what I think:

NO. Just no.

First of all, you want to play a ten year old girl who's a masochist and into self-mutilation. Honestly, I don't personally know any DMs who would admit something so creepy, disturbing and wrong into their games.


But, ignoring that for a moment, the idea has other problems as well. For one, it comes across as a "special snowflake" character, one which is created specifically to be the "main hero" of the entire game with no regard to other PCs who would be constantly pushed out of the limelight by this one single character and her special problems and personal development, or even to the DM who probably sits down to the table with a plot, a gameworld and stylistic choices already in his head and which are not compatible with this character concept. Just consider for a moment: what if the party gets together with the intention to play something "kinda like Lord of the Rings", or "sort of similar to Conan" (or any one of a hundred other such choices)? This character just doesn't fit.


Another problem, somewhat smaller, but likely still problematic to many players and DMs: 10 year old (this time without all the creepy other things). I assume you're not going to deliberately cripple the character (mechanically) by picking stats in the 5-8 range to reflect a 10 year old's lack of bodily development and life experience. However, if you have a 10 year old character who's equally competent at ass-kicking or knowing vast reams of lore as an adult mercenary or wizened magician, it's really going to break the suspension of disbelief for some people.

All in all, I think this concept really needs some rethinking and some prior consultation with the DM about what kind of game he wants to run and what sort of characters he wants to see.

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 04:53 AM
buh...bu..

Ten year old girl?

*ker-snap*

Morithias
2010-10-15, 09:40 AM
It was MEANT to be nightmare fuel. You know a heroes of horror type thing? It's just a concept for now could be NPC or PC.

That's one thing I never really got, have an EVIL deity do an EVIL deed by cursing a person who once slandered her, and apparently you're a screwed up DM.

But if a PC that for some reason is a NG necromancer grave robs the graveyard to make zombies that's ok because "he's trying to save the world". At least the girl has the excuse that a fricken GOD made her that way.

FelixG
2010-10-15, 09:45 AM
Pain =/= Drug?

The title of the thread is misleading :P

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-10-15, 09:55 AM
The problem is that she's just ten (ignoring the issues of integrating her meaningfully into a game). That's not Nightmare Fuel. It's not High Octane Nightmare Fuel. It's sick. Not sickening (though it is), just sick. It's wrong, on a fundamental level, for this girl to only be ten years old and a masochist. Bump her age of several years, and maybe you'll be able to get somewhere. If she was 16 or 18 years old, that'd be fine. She's not. She's ten. Ten year-olds are not masochists. Period. The curse is fine, but you can't apply it to a ten-year-old and expect people to be just fine with it.

Getting into the reincarnation issue, the problem with that isn't the endless cycle per se, but rather, as was mentioned, the issue of revealing this. It's too complex. Watching her not even flinch when an arrow embeds itself in her shoulder, and howl in ecstasy when she drives her sword into the chest of another, can trigger horror, and can be integrated easily. Having her be stuck in an infinite reincarnation loop is not so easily integrated.

Comet
2010-10-15, 10:03 AM
All in all, I think this idea sounds fine as long as you make sure that the players are aware of the kind of themes you are gunning for in a game. Most players don't walk into a session of D&D to hear about the evils of man and god amplified to a thousandfold and channeled into the most innocent of beings. It tends to break the fantasy of "Look at me, I am a hero! Woo, for great justice!"

That said, there's one thing I need to ask:

Where are you going with this character?
Whether PC or NPC, something needs to come out of this whole immortality/pain addict thing. There should be some sort of story here, not just random creepyness for its own sake.

If it's an NPC, what are the PCs supposed to do about her? Can they save her? Must they find a way to destroy her? Will they bury her alive or cast her into the void of an infinite cosmic well just to keep her out of their way?

As said, the idea itself is good. But there's something missing. Horror without some sort of payoff (whether optimistic or truly depressing) is not horror at all.

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 11:02 AM
I guess there's also the issue of why she'd want to talk to the PCs when she can kill them and taste their sweet sweet nectar of pain.

Shpadoinkle
2010-10-15, 11:12 AM
The curse is fine, but you can't apply it to a ten-year-old and expect people to be just fine with it.

Uh... I think that was kind of the point.

Telonius
2010-10-15, 12:03 PM
Re: 10 years old... according to this (http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/feelings/eating_disorders.html#)site:

Concerns about eating disorders are also beginning at an alarmingly young age. Research shows that 42% of first- to third-grade girls want to be thinner, and 81% of 10-year-olds are afraid of being fat. In fact, most kids with eating disorders began their disordered eating between the ages of 11 and 13.

They don't cite sources other than "research," it isn't 100% clear how they define "beginning disordered eating," and eating disorders are absolutely not the same thing as masochism. That said, it is pretty clear that self-destructive behaviors can start at an age a lot younger than most people like thinking about. Personally I'd set the age at 12 to be slightly more reasonable (and also more symbolically interesting).

Dienekes
2010-10-15, 12:09 PM
Huh, overly young children (often girls for some reason, but not always) are a common staple in horror for doing completely nightmare fuel things.

As such I see no problem in the concept. The implementation could be iffy. Personally I don't think I'm a strong enough GM to actually advice on how to bring her into the game without overshadowing or annoying my PCs. So, can't help ya there.

Urpriest
2010-10-15, 12:22 PM
The issue with complex stories is that they're hard to tell in-game. You need a group with enough roleplaying chops that they're going to sit around while Gandalf tells them a tale. If you're going to do it that way, introduce the character quickly and have her gone, to spike PCs curiosity. The characters then hear the tale from Mr. Exposition. Finally, they go and meet her in her full glory, and bring some sort of local solution to the situation.

If you aren't planning to tell this as a story but instead want the PCs to figure it out...then sorry, ain't gonna happen. Too complex, too many things they could misunderstand.

Finally, as a DM you need to figure out your stance on time travel. You've got a classic case of the virtual object problem. If she starts out as a masochist to such a great idea that it offends the gods themselves then she's already passed through the reincarnation loop. There was never a starting point, and she's being punished for the same hubris that she was created for. It's mildly hypocritical, but if it shows the PCs how you want time travel to work in your game (and if you're comfortable with the PCs using similar tactics, since any magic in the game is as accessible to you as to them in 3.5), then it's workable. If your intent is that the original 10 year old was so into pain that she offended the gods themselves without being the reincarnation of a being similarly into pain etc. etc, then I'm sorry but your idea is just silly and immature.

JeenLeen
2010-10-15, 12:41 PM
Is the sense of touch directly linked with pain reception? I can feel pain in my guy and there is no sense of touch there. (At least, as far as I know; never been opened up and touched in the intestines :smalltongue:)

The one logical thing about the curse I don't see if why she loses the sense of touch. Keeping touch but losing the ability to feel pain makes more sense to me. Unless you want her not to react if someone stabs her in the back not because she doesn't care (creepy) but because she doesn't notice (...well, also creepy, but not as unnerving.) She would also, or at least should, have minor bruises and cuts all over from running into things, which is fine but I imagine she'd come off as more creepy if she seems normal when they first meet her. Maybe with some cuts or wounds, but make it take a while to figure out they are self-inflicted instead of done by whatever baddies the PCs know are around.

Stage 8 also confuses me. Is he content with her addiction or does she want to be free? You imply at the beginning that she just wants self-inflicted pain and only gradually accepts hurting others as a way to get it (through the pain of the curse); I find it hard to believe after being an agent of the Nine Hells that she is still sane or moral enough to be disgusted with hurting others. Why is she motivated to commit suicide instead of fighting continually?

prufock
2010-10-15, 12:52 PM
Ten year-olds are not masochists. Period.

Not accurate, strictly speaking. The age of onset varies, but has been shown to appear at least some of the time in pre-pubescents. More common in males than females, but possible in both.

I agree that it's too complicated to implement fluidly. What would her purpose be in the story? How would she interact with the PCs?

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 01:53 PM
Not accurate, strictly speaking. The age of onset varies, but has been shown to appear at least some of the time in pre-pubescents. More common in males than females, but possible in both.

I agree that it's too complicated to implement fluidly. What would her purpose be in the story? How would she interact with the PCs?

It's mostly the credulity-stretching idea of a ten year old managing to anger a goddess by taking her name and being a masochist-sadist without having had her mind already broken by the requisite rape and torture of a small child.

I mean, I know Loviatar is the mistress of pain and all, but continualy reincarnating and siphoning the soul through hell of a little girl for being sexually abused from a young age in order to be some kind of BDSM sex slave is a bit harsh even for her. Not to mention, ignoring her whole psychological torture angle.

A 10 year old has only basic psychology still and hasn't really *invested* in the world. Now, who truly suffers more, a ten year old reduced into being aware while she becomes a living killing machine, or a mother who finds herself driven to destroy what little happiness she's found in life while realizing she's done it before, everytime finding a new way to snuff out the new life or lives she's brought into the world and having a most macabre and insidious art show waiting for her husband when he gets home so that she can drink in his suffering before consuming his pain and very soul. All the while knowing that this was the only brief glimmer of happiness and peace she gets which is all the worse because it's painfully ripped from her every time by her own bloodsoaked hands.

It basically becomes self-defeatingly meaningless as the ability to suffer diminishes the further into utter madness the poor bugger descends with each subsequent resurrection. However, with the brief balm of cruel mercy that is getting a chance at starting a life each time before her memories kick in, the fortitude of the puppet is extended.

After all, if you're going to go to the expense for a toy like that, you don't want to get bored of it or break it completely within a measly span of, what, maybe a century, maybe three if she's lucky?

OldFart
2010-10-15, 03:35 PM
The "ick" factor of ten-year old girl disturbing so many people should indicate that this is never ever an appropriate PC. Even in particularly "NC-17" WoD games. Should you ever actually find a GM or group that's OK with this character, consider joining another gaming group.

But as an NPC, you have successfully tapped the vein for nightmare fuel. As others have pointed out, though, the character isn't enough, you need goals, plot, and a story arc.

I would retool the origin a bit - sadistic evil human w/hubris is punished by Loviatar. No longer feels pleasure inflicting pain, just receiving it.

Then re-tool stages, simply making the human less and less capable of being harmed or feeling anything, finally forcing a "special quest" to end her existence at the last stage. Said quest is something she can hire the PCs for, or they can try to stop. Research around quest allows PCs to discover expository material. BBEGs that are by definition unkillable are good plot elements. Those that are suffering from it rather than reveling in it moreso.

Make the demon capable of feeling pain, but only that which it inflicts. Not only does this motivate it in the blood war, it gives a great excuse for PCs vs. NPC Round 2.

Finally, never mind reincarnation, just pick some random little girl and inflict a Mind Seed like effect, for serial immortality. Thus, an evil human/demon hybrid is clustered with the souls of several innocent little girls who have borne witness to what was done with/through their bodies and those of other girls like them. That's capital "E," wrath-of-a-deity evil. That's something most PCs, even those whose alignment has an "e" in it, are going to drop everything and try to kill.

Kylarra
2010-10-15, 03:46 PM
It's kind of eh. Sure if this were a movie or a horror cartoon with lolitastic themes then you'd be able to get that kind of elaborate backstory into play complete with full gruesome detail and blahblahblah.

As a PC? Your character is too wrapped up in their self-imposed (meaning you wrote it in as backstory, not as a result of in-game actions) curse to play nice with anyone, and is only remotely plausible in a sandbox style game where the other players all agree to give you center stage.

As an NPC? I don't see why I care about this masochistic murderer. SOP of decapitation, heart staking, burning body, etc etc will apply. Assuming zombie-syndrome, we'll just drop the head into a bag of holding and never open it again.

Morithias
2010-10-15, 06:38 PM
It's kind of eh. Sure if this were a movie or a horror cartoon with lolitastic themes then you'd be able to get that kind of elaborate backstory into play complete with full gruesome detail and blahblahblah.

As a PC? Your character is too wrapped up in their self-imposed (meaning you wrote it in as backstory, not as a result of in-game actions) curse to play nice with anyone, and is only remotely plausible in a sandbox style game where the other players all agree to give you center stage.

As an NPC? I don't see why I care about this masochistic murderer. SOP of decapitation, heart staking, burning body, etc etc will apply. Assuming zombie-syndrome, we'll just drop the head into a bag of holding and never open it again.

Well considering she was cursed via alter reality one can argue her addiction literally is of no fault of her own, besides the fact she accidentally ticked off a deity. I guess one could argue just killing her, although I'd like to think at least one gamer on this forum would try to cure her somehow.

As a PC? Well, the addiction is strong, but you get 14 years of in-game time out of it, which seriously is enough for almost every campaign I've ever run to end. I think she'd fit in an evil party well, and ironically would probably be more tragic and with a more complex back story than almost every other evil PC I've ever seen. Sure she is nightmare incorporated in what she is, but that doesn't make her less tragic.

Premier
2010-10-15, 06:47 PM
No, she's not "nightmare incorporated". Cenobites from Hellraiser, those are "nightmare incorporated". This concept here is socially unacceptable (and that's the most restrained way of phrasing it I could come up with), because it involves horrific child abuse. I'm flabbergasted at how adamantly you refuse to understand this concept.

Would you consider playing (or introducing) a 10 year old little girl character who (for any reason, curse or otherwise) gets a kick out of getting raped daily? Because this is pretty much the same thing, here.

Kylarra
2010-10-15, 07:07 PM
Well considering she was cursed via alter reality one can argue her addiction literally is of no fault of her own, besides the fact she accidentally ticked off a deity. I guess one could argue just killing her, although I'd like to think at least one gamer on this forum would try to cure her somehow.You just broke my verisimilitude meter. Honestly. Accidentally ticking off a deity to the point where they trap you into an endless cycle of vicious reincarnation at age 10 is just ... yeah.

Morithias
2010-10-15, 08:22 PM
You just broke my verisimilitude meter. Honestly. Accidentally ticking off a deity to the point where they trap you into an endless cycle of vicious reincarnation at age 10 is just ... yeah.

When you consider in the forgotten realms that simply dying without learning about the god's existence as a whole will get you plastered onto a wall of torment for a thousand years until the wall eventually erases you out of existence was a concept put into place by a true neutral deity, I'd say an evil deity doing something like this because a female was so arrogant to claim she was her is perfectly in character for the gods.

Face it, in Faerun the gods are total jackasses overall.

Jornophelanthas
2010-10-15, 08:29 PM
Are you serious about this as a backstory for a PC?

Yes, this is horror, but probably not the kind you're looking for. I see several flavours:

"Eek! The child is torturing the prisoner! Is she laughing? I can't bear watching it!"
This is what I think you're going for. However, this will not be the typical reaction by other players.

"Woe is me! Gods have mercy on this poor child's spoiled innocence! Why is the world so cruel?"
This is most certainly not the effect you will attain from others, although I suspect it's your motivation in roleplaying this character.

"You made up a ten-year-old freakazoid serial-killer and plan on playing this as a PC? Um, I don't think I want to spend time with you any more. And please forget where I live."
This is what I expect will be the effect on most roleplayers.

"Yes, I want my players to provide backstories on their characters. But you want to play an antisocial child? And you want to be unkillable except by suicide? In a fantasy campaign? And you still haven't given me any backstory on your character's actual life."
This is what I would rule if I were DM and a player came up to me with this concept as a backstory.

This concept is utterly unsuitable as a player character, because:
- The character is completely one-dimensional, with not even a chance of developing a personality other than what is dictated by this curse.
- Roleplaying an addict who is defined by an addiction is boring. Her next "fix" is always the first thing on her mind, and she won't be interested in anything else.
- To this character, all people (including the other players) are her drug, and hurting them is her fix. This unchangable personality is not just anti-social, but downright psychopathic. Why would other people (i.e. the other PCs, especially evil ones) put up with someone like this? Why would this character tolerate the company of others, except if they directly feed her addiction? And what's to stop them from killing the other PCs when given the chance?
- The character would not be interested in any plot the DM introduces to the players, except ones specifically tied to your backstory. This is not fair to the other players. And if the story's not about you, why go on difficult adventures in the first place, if there are easier ways of getting victims?
- Additionally, the character would not be interested in any combat with undead, plants, oozes, constructs, or other things that don't experience pain.
- Stage 4 of the curse is a game-breaking advantage in any campaign that has regular combat encounters.

Morithias
2010-10-15, 08:39 PM
Are you serious about this as a backstory for a PC?

Yes, this is horror, but probably not the kind you're looking for. I see several flavours:

"Eek! The child is torturing the prisoner! Is she laughing? I can't bear watching it!"
This is what I think you're going for. However, this will not be the typical reaction by other players.

"Woe is me! Gods have mercy on this poor child's spoiled innocence! Why is the world so cruel?"
This is most certainly not the effect you will attain from others, although I suspect it's your motivation in roleplaying this character.

"You made up a ten-year-old freakazoid serial-killer and plan on playing this as a PC? Um, I don't think I want to spend time with you any more. And please forget where I live."
This is what I expect will be the effect on most roleplayers.

"Yes, I want my players to provide backstories on their characters. But you want to play an antisocial child? And you want to be unkillable except by suicide? In a fantasy campaign? And you still haven't given me any backstory on your character's actual life."
This is what I would rule if I were DM and a player came up to me with this concept as a backstory.

This concept is utterly unsuitable as a player character, because:
- The character is completely one-dimensional, with not even a chance of developing a personality other than what is dictated by this curse.
- Roleplaying an addict who is defined by an addiction is boring. Her next "fix" is always the first thing on her mind, and she won't be interested in anything else.
- To this character, all people (including the other players) are her drug, and hurting them is her fix. This unchangable personality is not just anti-social, but downright psychopathic. Why would other people (i.e. the other PCs, especially evil ones) put up with someone like this? Why would this character tolerate the company of others, except if they directly feed her addiction? And what's to stop them from killing the other PCs when given the chance?
- The character would not be interested in any plot the DM introduces to the players, except ones specifically tied to your backstory. This is not fair to the other players. And if the story's not about you, why go on difficult adventures in the first place, if there are easier ways of getting victims?
- Additionally, the character would not be interested in any combat with undead, plants, oozes, constructs, or other things that don't experience pain.
- Stage 4 of the curse is a game-breaking advantage in any campaign that has regular combat encounters.

Stage 4 is very poorly worded. I will fix that. It's meant to be, that she no longer feels the pain others inflict on her, but still takes the damage mechanic wise. That was my mistake.

As for it being a 'PC' my players are very mature, and know perfectly well that even though I can come up with stuff like that, it doesn't mean I'm off balance.

As for my real counter to that, look up a man named "Jerry Robinson". A.k.a the man who created the concept of the Joker in Batman. If you get my point.

This character is still in brainstorming and beta design. Furthermore only have one real thing in mind doesn't make the character useless or impossible to be deep in any real way. One of the most iconic villains of all time only had one thing on 'his' mind, and he's still remembered to this day.

Hal 9000

Jornophelanthas
2010-10-15, 09:02 PM
Stage 4 is very poorly worded. I will fix that. It's meant to be, that she no longer feels the pain others inflict on her, but still takes the damage mechanic wise. That was my mistake.
Still, being unable to die except by suicide is unbalancing the game system.



As for it being a 'PC' my players are very mature, and know perfectly well that even though I can come up with stuff like that, it doesn't mean I'm off balance.

As for my real counter to that, look up a man named "Jerry Robinson". A.k.a the man who created the concept of the Joker in Batman. If you get my point.

Fair point, although the concept of the Joker is not nearly as sickening as this one. The Joker is merely violent, sadistic, and a sociopath (as well as a narcissist with a facial mutilation). The Joker is not a young child with shattered innocence, nor a violent addict to first masochism, then sadism, nor a psychopath, nor doomed to relive his tortured existence for all eternity. Your conception has far more (possibly unconscious) religious overtures that subconsciously pull people's moral chains than the Joker has ever had.



This character is still in brainstorming and beta design. Furthermore only have one real thing in mind doesn't make the character useless or impossible to be deep in any real way. One of the most iconic villains of all time only had one thing on 'his' mind, and he's still remembered to this day.

Hal 9000

HAL 9000 was just misunderstood. All he wanted was to survive.

But seriously, the fact that you give two examples of iconic villains as justifications for your concept indirectly supports my argument that such a character is unsuitable as a PC. It may be a good idea for a villain (in the hands of the right DM), but certainly not for a player character. Can you imagine the Joker, or HAL 9000 working well with anyone? (And I don't mean henchmen or other subordinates.)

Morithias
2010-10-15, 09:04 PM
Still, being unable to die except by suicide is unbalancing the game system.


Fair point, although the concept of the Joker is not nearly as sickening as this one. The Joker is merely violent, sadistic, and a sociopath (as well as a narcissist with a facial mutilation). The Joker is not a young child with shattered innocence, nor a violent addict to first masochism, then sadism, nor a psychopath, nor doomed to relive his tortured existence for all eternity. Your conception has far more (possibly unconscious) religious overtures that subconsciously pull people's moral chains than the Joker has ever had.



HAL 9000 was just misunderstood. All he wanted was to survive.

But seriously, the fact that you give two examples of iconic villains as justifications for your concept indirectly supports my argument that such a character is unsuitable as a PC. It may be a good idea for a villain (in the hands of the right DM), but certainly not for a player character. Can you imagine the Joker, or HAL 9000 working well with anyone? (And I don't mean henchmen or other subordinates.)

Ever played a campaign where the Player Character's are the villains? You know, villain protagonists?

Dienekes
2010-10-15, 09:04 PM
Oh hell this is supposed to be a character and not a plot hook?

Sorry, I can't see any players being too impressed by being teamed up with "Pain Baby". The concept is indeed disturbing (just look at how vehement folks are that it's just wrong on a fundamental level), so props for that. But most players that I know of act like their characters are immune to pain anyway (unless it's funny to bring it up). A curse can add some flavor to a character, but the way you have this set up either you allies won't notice unless you hit them over the head with a brick about it, or it becomes the center of an entire campaign, which could cause the GM some unnecessary strife.

Morithias
2010-10-15, 09:06 PM
Oh hell this is supposed to be a character and not a plot hook?

Sorry, I can't see any players being too impressed by being teamed up with "Pain Baby". The concept is indeed disturbing (just look at how vehement folks are that it's just wrong on a fundamental level), so props for that. But most players that I know of act like their characters are immune to pain anyway (unless it's funny to bring it up). A curse can add some flavor to a character, but the way you have this set up either you allies won't notice unless you hit them over the head with a brick about it, or it becomes the center of an entire campaign, which could cause the GM some unnecessary strife.

Last I recalled a real life drug addict doesn't have to be blatant. Subtle quirks, imbalance showing, need for something and crazy desires. Most people that are drug addicts you can't just look at and go "yup that's one of them".

Jornophelanthas
2010-10-15, 09:27 PM
Last I recalled a real life drug addict doesn't have to be blatant. Subtle quirks, imbalance showing, need for something and crazy desires. Most people that are drug addicts you can't just look at and go "yup that's one of them".

If this is how you want to play the character, why do you need a detailed 9-step program of suffering that carries on well after the character's death? It's unlikely steps 4-9 will ever come into play, especially given that the character will not remember anything from past lives.

Urpriest
2010-10-16, 04:03 PM
When you consider in the forgotten realms that simply dying without learning about the god's existence as a whole will get you plastered onto a wall of torment for a thousand years until the wall eventually erases you out of existence was a concept put into place by a true neutral deity, I'd say an evil deity doing something like this because a female was so arrogant to claim she was her is perfectly in character for the gods.

Face it, in Faerun the gods are total jackasses overall.

They're jackasses, but on a grant scale. Setting up the Wall is a one-time act, not a specific intervention that requires attention to the lives of individual mortal children. This isn't Greek mythology, your actions aren't automatically interesting to deities.

As such, this really isn't appropriate for a PC. PCs aren't beings who can piss off gods before high level, that's what levels are about. Just as most DMs won't let you play the Prince of Corymyr, they won't let you play a being legendary enough to have pissed off a god in your backstory. PCs just aren't that special.

As an NPC, you need better reason for the god to take attention than "she likes pain". Some specific connection to the deity, some display of hubris large enough to get deific attention, etc. Perhaps she was a wandering circus freak, known to kings and emperors for her obsession.

Also, again, how as a DM will you deal with the Time Travel aspect?

Callista
2010-10-16, 04:17 PM
Not appropriate for a PC, obviously. (You weren't actually going to try that, were you?)

Leave off the reincarnation bit--just give her regeneration 1 or something of that sort, with no way to stop the regeneration from happening; if she's ever rendered "dead" by any effect she's still conscious and presumed to be at -100 HP. That should work well enough. After that, a simple Plane Shift can get her into the blood war.

Secondly, have her be ten when it starts, but not when the PCs meet her. She should be at least fifteen at that point--still disturbingly young, but not so young that it will cause problems. Your desire for creepiness shouldn't outweigh the fact that you're treading on dangerous territory here.

And thirdly, don't make it "her fault"; that doesn't make any sense. Evil deities don't need to have reasons to pick on children; they'll do it of their own accord; and simple masochism in a random girl isn't going to attract the attention of a deity. Simply give her some really screwed up parents who worshiped the deity in question and made a deal with a demon, with her as the price.

Weasel of Doom
2010-10-16, 04:38 PM
I'm honestly surprised by how many people are screaming about how horrific this is, it's just a game right?

However I don't think that makes it a good idea even if your party would be fine with it for three reasons;


Seems too elaborate and unless your campaigns are far far deeper than mine the party will never hear of, understand or care about the whole story. This applies whether pc or npc. Still might be worth including but probably better to simplify the story.

I don't think a god would really care about a ten year old. Maybe her parents were highish level adventurers or villians who offended Loviatar (surely you can come up with a reason for that) and caused her to curse their child.

10 ... really? How exactly does she cause pain to others? Just seems too young to realistically have a role in combat. Depending on campaign style realism could easily not matter but if it does and you want her to go toe-to-toe with villians I'd increase her age a bit (maybe she was cursed years ago and now is a bit older). Or you could make her a spell caster in which case web, hold person and a set of scalpels would let her get her fix. Maybe a divine caster whose powers where granted by Loviatar, giving her enough rope to hang herself as it were.


Overall I think that introducing the pcs to her when she's 10 is more trouble than it's worth. She could work as a pc or npc but I'd probably have them meet her when she's between 15-18 and only if it suits the campaign.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-16, 05:56 PM
Alright, what plans do you have for this character other than the curse? What'll she act like around the other PCs? How will she interact with them? How does she get along in everyday life and deal with normal social interaction? Build-wise, what's she going to be - a primary combatant using Waif Fu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WaifFu), a cleric of Loviatar (perhaps jabbing her hands into the wounds of injured party members when she casts healing spells so she has an excuse to see them in more pain), or what? As pretty much everyone has said, from what you've given so far this doesn't look like it would work out well, but I'm going to try to withhold judgment until I have a sense of how you'd actually play the character in practice instead of just what the concept is.

Valameer
2010-10-16, 06:07 PM
If yer going for nightmare fuel, you should think bigger. This just seems like a strange emo girl. I'm tired of the 'children are creepy' thing on the same level that I'm tired of the 'lone good drow' thing. But - it's a WiP as you said.

Spoilered for nightmare fuel.
Flesh golems made of nothing but infant parts, all wailing eternally for mommy.

A krenshar who's skin peels all the way back to the tail, then drags oozingly along behind the beast as it attacks.

A mage with wriggling fingers where he should have eyes.

A warforged ranger with craft:taxidermy who wears 'human suits.'

Course none of that stuff should be in the average any game.

I don't find 10 y/o girls frightening no matter how hard they try. Amp it up, or else go more subtle. Something that seems almost fine at first glance can end up being a lot more creepy than crazy hacked-up girl with a knife. Give her a split personality, or make her relatively normal, but horrified of what she does.

When going for messed up, there's always the possibility of going too far and just making some eyes roll.

As for 'tragic'... I dunno, it feels too over-the-top, y'know? Like you've looped around on the 'tragedy scale' from heart wrenching back to corny.

It is always more tragic when a character *could potentially* rectify their flaw, but never does for whatever reason. God-given curses ala Heracles are less sympathetic.

Hamlet, Watchmen and Cowboy Bebop spoilers:
Hamlet potentially could have had a happy solution if he had acted instead of deliberating endlessly. Rorschach could have compromised his integrity, but didn't. Spike Spiegel just had to know what he was really made of.

You know, usually heroes are far more tragic than villians anyway, if that's really what you're going for. No one cares about the villian's reason to be a villian. How badass they are, or how much we want to stop them usually beats out their big ol' sob story about why they are so badass.

Someone who fights against their own tragic nature 'til the end, then succumbs to it: that's a tragedy. Also terrible fate or chance is better than god-given curses.

This character of yours might make a compelling antagonist (in a love-to-hate kind of way), but I don't see much there for a compelling protagonist. It's all out of her hands/written in stone anyhow. She has little or no choice. Playing her would get stale pretty fast.

tl;dr To add tragedy, add some possibility for heroism. And pull back from the heavy nightmare fuel - go subtle. Now you can wrench some hearts without slapping any faces. :smallbiggrin: