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Endarire
2010-10-14, 06:24 PM
Recently, there have been threads on this forum about the brokenness of core and the 3.P system. Mostly, these have compared casters to Fighters.

We know that casters can have ludicrous numbers of options compared to non-casters. Often, a caster can cast a single spell to remedy an otherwise difficult or "impossible" situation.

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

Urpriest
2010-10-14, 06:26 PM
Yeah, off the top of my head it would just exacerbate the rocket-tag feel of high level 3.5. Everyone being Fighters is much more playable than everyone being Wizards.

Crossblade
2010-10-14, 06:34 PM
Yeah, off the top of my head it would just exacerbate the rocket-tag feel of high level 3.5..

Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off. :smallcool:

Gnaeus
2010-10-14, 06:37 PM
How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

I played in an all wizard game. It works fine. Everyone had fun. We had a melee guy, a healer (me), an enchanter and a skill monkey (who took 1 level in rogue.)

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-10-14, 06:39 PM
Yeah, off the top of my head it would just exacerbate the rocket-tag feel of high level 3.5. Everyone being Fighters is much more playable than everyone being Wizards.


Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off. :smallcool:

Actually, no. For the former, see the Arcane Adventures on these very forums. There's also the fact that all fighters would have issues taking on CR appropriate dudes without rocking (magic) expendables. In the case of the later, conjuration has that covered in every way possible.

Urpriest
2010-10-14, 06:48 PM
Actually, no. For the former, see the Arcane Adventures on these very forums. There's also the fact that all fighters would have issues taking on CR appropriate dudes without rocking (magic) expendables. In the case of the later, conjuration has that covered in every way possible.

You're missing the part where the monsters are Wizards too. Similarly, my all-Fighterverse was on the assumption that monsters only have goodies accessible to Fighters, so no to limited flight, for example.

And I wouldn't say a Wizard game is unplayable, I'm well aware there are many counterexamples. I simply argue that to the extent that 3.5 has a problem with encounters being either trivial or overpowering, and this being decided on the first round, an all-wizard campaign would be moreso.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 06:52 PM
I tell you what, If I was a wizard, I'd never ever have to sit in freaking DC traffic ever again. :smallfurious:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-14, 07:15 PM
I tell you what, If I was a wizard, I'd never ever have to sit in freaking DC traffic ever again. :smallfurious:

No, then you would be stuck in Wizard traffic or covered in floo powder.

dsmiles
2010-10-14, 07:18 PM
No, then you would be stuck in Wizard traffic or covered in floo powder.

Standing in line for teleport access? Probably still takes less time than my hour-and-a-half drive (which totals only about 23 miles).

Logalmier
2010-10-14, 07:18 PM
Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off. :smallcool:

Blasting off in the most controlled way possible.:smalltongue:

What would happen against a golem is that the characters would realize it was a golem, teleport away, research spells that work on golems while keeping tabs on that particular golem. Then they would prepare those spells, teleport to the golem and finish it off.

If thats what you mean by blasting off then yes. :P

Psyren
2010-10-14, 07:45 PM
Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off. :smallcool:

Even in core-only they can just Summon Bigger Fish or Polymorph Into Bigger Fish or Charm Bigger Fish to fight for them. Outside core... yeah.

cdrcjsn
2010-10-14, 07:50 PM
It would be a case of whoever wins initiative wins the fight.

Even at low levels, a well placed Color Spray can spell doom for an entire party.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-14, 07:53 PM
Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off. :smallcool:

Conjurers: get someone else to go your work.

AxeD
2010-10-14, 08:30 PM
What if we were all only 1st - 3rd level wizards in real life? From most of the real life equivalency D&D character surveys I've seen, you generally don't get put higher than a 2nd-3rd level character. That'd mean you'd only have access to 1st and 2nd level spells. They wouldn't be that world breaking either.

Well, endure elements would be nice to deal with annoying weather, unseen servant to deal with minor physical chores and comprehend languages would come in handy for foreign films/tv shows (would you need to touch the screen?), but it's not like they significantly better your life in any way.

I can't remember the name of the spell, but there's some first level spell that lets you read/learn stuff at an acellerated rate - that'd be damn useful for university/schooling.

The only 1st level spell that would seriously disrupt the world would be charm person. There's no way you wouldn't get a prison sentence for affecting someone's mind without their consent. And it would be so tempting to have!

Anyone else think differently?

Psyren
2010-10-14, 09:44 PM
Anyone else think differently?

Cast Scholar's Touch, win life.

Pechvarry
2010-10-15, 12:44 PM
Recently, there have been threads on this forum about the brokenness of core and the 3.P system. Mostly, these have compared casters to Fighters.

We know that casters can have ludicrous numbers of options compared to non-casters. Often, a caster can cast a single spell to remedy an otherwise difficult or "impossible" situation.

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

On the contrary, this is the most realistic D&D setting. When you can create perpetual motion and be whatever superhero you want, on demand, survival of the fittest says eventually, the world's populations will only consist of those with a positive mental score and some means of casting. BSFs are simply dinosaurs.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 12:48 PM
Recently, there have been threads on this forum about the brokenness of core and the 3.P system. Mostly, these have compared casters to Fighters.

We know that casters can have ludicrous numbers of options compared to non-casters. Often, a caster can cast a single spell to remedy an otherwise difficult or "impossible" situation.

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

I have done this. It was awesome. Combat was filled with cool stuff happening all the type, the battleground changed frequently, and it never became a litany of "I roll a d20" every round.

All primary caster parties are on a pretty even balance keel, and the games are fantastic. I encourage everyone to try it.

On the golem subject, not everyone was actually blasted to death. Incapacitating, and CDGing with a scythe was popular, as were crossbows. I have no doubt that golems could be obliterated by such a team.

Randel
2010-10-15, 03:40 PM
Do wizards actually have access to magical healing? If every single human is a wizard then logically there shouldn't be any divine casters who have access to cure spells. Which means that there is no source of magical healing in the setting (unless wizards have access to healing magic that I don't know about).

Actually, I think there might be a few alternate class features that allow for low level magical healing (like replacing your familiar for some kind of spirit thing that can convert spells into healing magic for you alone). In which case, only a few people would be able to make use of magical healing.

So, if 99% of all the hitpoint damage in the world has to be healed via mundane means then there would probably be quite a few people putting skill points in Heal or Craft: bandages or whatever. Thus, even if a person doesn't have a very high int score needed to cast arcane magic (and can't afford a way to magically increase their int score) then then they can get a job using skills that don't have Int as their base stat.


Also, wizards need access to their spellbooks to memorise and cast spells. Thus, whichever wizard governement controlls the land would be able to control what spells are available by controlling access to spellbooks.

First off, they control access to the magical inks that people need to write scrolls from or to write new spells in their spellbooks.

Then, they controll all the wizard libraries where arcane knowledge is kept and put different books in different sections. Spells that are okay (like ones that boost craft skills or other mundane tasks are freely available to everyone while actual combat spells are restricted).

They might allow everyone to learn utility or protective spells (mage armor and shield are readily available) while other spells are only available to the military or police forces. Magic missile would likely be very restricted since wizards have low hit points anyway and the spell always hits, unless you've got a brooch of shielding to protect against magic missiles then a shot or two would likely kill a civilian wizard.

Anyone caught casting restricted spells without the proper license would be put in jail, have their spellbooks and equipment removed, and the wizard cops would run through their stuff with a fine toothed comb.

People would research less lethal spells (ones that simply disable or deal nonlethal damage) because spells might actually hit innocent bystanders and there are other ways to make use of prisoners.

The spells Distilled Joy and Liquid Pain can extract pain or pleasure from the target and turn it into drugs that can be used to substitute the XP cost of spells or crafting magic items.

Thus, prison systems (or other places where you cna get alot of warm bodies) could be set up to basically become Ambrosia or Agony factories. Figure out a way to fill people with joy and then constantly extract distilled joy from them (distilled joy is a level 3 spell while liquid pain is a level 4 spell... so luckily it would be cheaper to extract joy from people). So the prisons would probably be full of permanant custom made Symbols of Pleasure that basically act as lotus eater machines that make everyone nearby writh with magically induced pleasure (or some other way to do it) then extract ambrosia from them and send it off to magic item factories.

Wizards can make use of pearls of power and headbands of intelect increase their intelligence. So, mass-producing pearls of power would increase the total amount of magic the society has access to. So, using distilled joy factories (which use a 3rd level spell to work) to mass produce ambrosia to substitute the crafting XP costs could make more 3rd level pearls of power to make more ambrosia.

Then, it they ever have a war or something and they need a whole lot of 3rd level spells cast then they just grab up all the pearls of power and use them to spam whatever spells they need to win the fight.


Basically, while everyone is powerful then there will be some who are more powerful than others. Each wizard has value insofar as they can cast spells, which means that a king or emperor wants to control all the wizards under him to make use of their spells (why waste his own spell slots on mundane chores when he can make his underlings do it... and keep his spell slots free to protect himself from being overthrown?).

Plus, the pearls of power and other magic items help augment a wizards powers. These magic items can be controlled by the government and require licenses to use. Anyone who used magic items without a license or in a way the government doesn't like has their magic items taken away.

And, anyone without magic due to limited intelligence gets stuck with the mundane jobs (or uses magic items to do stuff). Undesirables or criminals get stuck in prison/distilled joy factories where they produce the ambrosia that lets 'good' wizards produce magic items without using up their own XP for crafting.


Lack of divine magic would limit some of the cooler spell combos like Plant Growth, Create Food and Water, Raise Dead and the like. Though the Clone spell would probably be nice if there are enough high level wizards to maintain the clone facilities. Any wizard with enough money could put up an insurance policy and donate the tissue sample needed to grow the clone and maintain them. Since the clone spell needs a facility to keep the clone body around then the government could control that to make sure the people they want alive stay alive and the people they want dead stay dead.

Though spells like Flesh to Stone would be nice since they can turn someone to stone so they aren't revived via the Clone spell (since the haven't dies) and can be revived later if the need them.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-15, 03:44 PM
Do wizards actually have access to magical healing? Yes, actually, a Wizard can learn healing spells.

Randel
2010-10-15, 11:26 PM
Yes, actually, a Wizard can learn healing spells.

Really? Which spells can they learn?

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 11:31 PM
Well, Arcane Disciple would let them learn all of the Healing Domain spells for instance. I believe the Domain Wizard variant class also allows something along those lines.

I believe those are two of the lesser things to do as well.

BobVosh
2010-10-15, 11:45 PM
Really? Which spells can they learn?

Summon monster; Quite a few outsiders can do CXW.

SM9:
Astral deva has 7 CLW, 1 heal, remove curse, remove diesease
Azata, Ghaele can prepare 3 heals, although defaults to only 1
SM 7:
Azata, Lillend: CSW 2/day


Then there is gate, planar bindings, Repair (if warforged), wish, limited wish.

Most of these are fairly high level, but you can do a lesser planar binding for a decent outsider. Also I think you can get a unicorn for a familiar if you spend enough feats, but not positive. Unicorns have a lot of healing.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 11:48 PM
Additionally, there's the repair line, which are arcane. Healing spells for constructs.

Alternatively, tomb tainted soul makes any negative energy inflicting spell a healing spell.

Neither of those are all-purpose healing, but in the right situation, they are fantastic.



Technically, for a core way, wish and limited wish can duplicate spells. Limited wish would normally be the preferred way, for obvious cost reasons. Still, this is more of an emergency heal option that a routine use. There are many, many easier ways to get out of combat healing instead.

My absolute favorite way of wizard healing is taking the reserve feat to get infinite summons, and making or buying a vampiric weapon. Hand it round the party, and keep summoning things to hit.

gdiddy
2010-10-16, 01:13 AM
Predicting Tippy's arrival in 3...2...

Endarire
2010-10-16, 02:13 AM
C'mon, Tippy!

Regarding healing, Wizards can research spells for 1000G and 1 week per spell level. Especially in this situation, why wouldn't Wizards research cure, restoration and revival spells?

Gnaeus
2010-10-16, 10:57 AM
Well, Arcane Disciple would let them learn all of the Healing Domain spells for instance. I believe the Domain Wizard variant class also allows something along those lines.

I believe those are two of the lesser things to do as well.

Thats how we delt with it. And even if the arcane disciple only gives 1 clw per day, that is enough to make and use scrolls and wands.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-16, 11:16 AM
If everyone was a wizard, we would be on the other side of the galaxy by now. And a good thing too, 'cuz we would have blown up the planet by now as well.

Logalmier
2010-10-16, 03:03 PM
If everyone was a wizard, we would be on the other side of the galaxy by now. And a good thing too, 'cuz we would have blown up the planet by now as well.

Of course we could always make a new planet from scratch if everyone was a wizard...

Radar
2010-10-16, 03:18 PM
Of course we could always make a new planet from scratch if everyone was a wizard...
Everyone cast Wall of Stone in 3.. 2.. 1.. :smallbiggrin:

All wizard party would work just fine: Conjurer provides tankers (or improvised trapfinders) and healers if need be, Illusionist and Transmuter provide buffs, Necromancer can debuff or blast away. A pack of wizards can replicate any regular party function.

Logalmier
2010-10-16, 03:23 PM
Everyone cast Wall of Stone in 3.. 2.. 1.. :smallbiggrin:

All wizard party would work just fine: Conjurer provides tankers (or improvised trapfinders) and healers if need be, Illusionist and Transmuter provide buffs, Necromancer can debuff or blast away. A pack of wizards can replicate any regular party function.

Only ten times better. :smalltongue:

Endarire
2010-10-17, 03:40 PM
What sorts of challenges are appropriate for a party of all Wizards? How does this change from a "typical" party of 2 casters and 2 non-casters?

Volos
2010-10-17, 04:02 PM
If everyone were wizards (including the baddies) then Power Word : Whatever would be so powerful it wouldn't even be funny. With all the low health totals, we would all end up falling prey to no save and this happens based on your HP total spells.

Psyren
2010-10-17, 04:10 PM
If everyone were wizards (including the baddies) then Power Word : Whatever would be so powerful it wouldn't even be funny. With all the low health totals, we would all end up falling prey to no save and this happens based on your HP total spells.

They're not unbeatable - all of those are "SR: Yes" for instance.

Eldariel
2010-10-17, 04:28 PM
Come midlevels, most of your HP comes from Con anyways. On level 20, Fighter gets 114 HP by averages out of HD while Wizard gets 51. Would be significant except for the ~24 Con they both have that leads to both having +140 HP just from that leading to Wizard having just under 200 (a bit over with False Life) and Fighter ~250. Sure, Fighter has more HP but the percentile difference just isn't that major; on those levels it's unlike to be more than one attack worth of extra.

And sure, the difference will be larger for most of the levels but in the teens, +6 Con item should become available giving both Lvl*5 extra HP (assuming 14 Con here) which starts to somewhat trivialize the class HD. It's always present but simply not THAT big a deal. It's a huge deal on level 1 due to maximized HD, but every level thereafter, it becomes less and less important.


Though there is one Core class that has bucketloads more HP than the others and that's the Barbarian, due to the Con-boost from Rage; with base 14 Con they'd end up at ~350 HP by 20 easily blowing the Fighter out of the water by 100 or so. But that's neither here nor now.

Volos
2010-10-17, 04:35 PM
They're not unbeatable - all of those are "SR: Yes" for instance.

Just take the feat that gives you a bonus on penetration checks vs SR.

Psyren
2010-10-17, 04:38 PM
Just take the feat that gives you a bonus on penetration checks vs SR.

If you really want to beat SR, boost your CL rather than wasting two feats on +4 to your check. But even a CL of 1000 won't do anything to magic immunity.

Aquillion
2010-10-17, 04:46 PM
Using an all-wizard party for balance reasons (as the OP suggested) isn't necessary, though.

Cleric + Druid + Wizard + Beguiler covers all the 'default' roles very well. The Beguiler's not really as powerful as the other three, but they should be able to shine now and then.

PopcornMage
2010-10-17, 04:47 PM
Then it'd better not be set in the Harry Potter universe.

Safety Sword
2010-10-17, 05:04 PM
Summon monster; Quite a few outsiders can do CXW.

SM9:
Astral deva has 7 CLW, 1 heal, remove curse, remove diesease
Azata, Ghaele can prepare 3 heals, although defaults to only 1
SM 7:
Azata, Lillend: CSW 2/day


Then there is gate, planar bindings, Repair (if warforged), wish, limited wish.

Most of these are fairly high level, but you can do a lesser planar binding for a decent outsider. Also I think you can get a unicorn for a familiar if you spend enough feats, but not positive. Unicorns have a lot of healing.

Consider this: If everyone was a Wizard then perhaps all of the Divine spells were never developed. They simply do not exist. Now your summoned creatures can not heal you. No one can. Win initiative, or die.

Psyren
2010-10-17, 05:12 PM
Consider this: If everyone was a Wizard then perhaps all of the Divine spells were never developed. They simply do not exist. Now your summoned creatures can not heal you. No one can. Win initiative, or die.

Consider this: the cure spells were developed by deities, not mortals.

Eldariel
2010-10-17, 05:18 PM
Using an all-wizard party for balance reasons (as the OP suggested) isn't necessary, though.

Cleric + Druid + Wizard + Beguiler covers all the 'default' roles very well. The Beguiler's not really as powerful as the other three, but they should be able to shine now and then.

And again, an Artificer or a Cloistered Cleric can take the Beguiler's spot if you want all T1 all the time.

Jack_Simth
2010-10-17, 05:21 PM
Consider this: If everyone was a Wizard then perhaps all of the Divine spells were never developed. They simply do not exist. Now your summoned creatures can not heal you. No one can. Win initiative, or die.
Heh. Healing is mostly for outside battle. In battle, that'd apply, regardless. And there's ways to get HP healing even without the Cure line at all. Polymorph, for instance. Ability damage/drain is a killer, though.


Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off. :smallcool:
Not really. Let's see... the lowest CR Core Golem is the Flesh golem at CR 7. Assuming it's a 'boss' monster, then you're looking at encountering it at about Character level 3 or 4 - where it's got a Will save of +3 Vs. Glitterdust's save DC of 15+, and it can't really find the players anymore when they Summon up a few baddies to attack it. Or they just bypass it with Invisibility and/or Spider Climb, due to its poor senses. Higher CR golems have similar issues - the Greater Stone Golem (CR 16) when faced with a pack of four Wizard-12's, is pretty toast. Invisibility is easy for the Wizards, then they can just Summon it's doom. It doesn't have the Listen needed to pinpoint the Wizards, and the DR 10/Adamantine will be slowly worn down by, say, Fire Elementals and their Burn ability. Sure, it'll take a while, but really... who cares?

Aquillion
2010-10-17, 10:23 PM
And again, an Artificer or a Cloistered Cleric can take the Beguiler's spot if you want all T1 all the time.Or another Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, although there's something to be said for diversity. It's not like there's anything you absolutely need skills for.

But a Beguiler is strong enough to not feel too overshadowed as long as nobody goes out of their way to make them obsolete. They're still a full caster, even if they have a very limited list, so as long as you focus on filling in the gaps in other people's casting and nobody uses the same spells as you, you should always have something to contribute.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-17, 10:35 PM
How about a gestalt group where everyone has to take wizard as one side of the gestalt?

A group like:

Warblade//Wizard - Melee Wizard
Factotum//Wizard - Skill Monkey Wizard
Archivist//Wizard - Divine Wizard
Erudite//Wizard - Psychic Wizard

would be hilarious.

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-17, 11:05 PM
This topic kinda sounds familiar... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168051) :smallsmile:

I think the underlying issue with the rocket taggyness of the whole thing is that whatever encounters you plan pretty much have to be at least as involved as the party in order to have the rocket tag be of any fun. Really, there's little concern that the group will work if they try hard enough.

Psyren
2010-10-17, 11:07 PM
A group like:

Warblade//Wizard - Melee Wizard
Factotum//Wizard - Skill Monkey Wizard
Archivist//Wizard - Divine Wizard
Erudite//Wizard - Psychic Wizard

would be awesome.

Fixed for great justice :smallbiggrin: