General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. [Archive] - Page 2

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Xefas

2010-10-27, 03:10 PM

Yes, you can have spells of a given circle without knowing spells of a lower circle. No, that's not necessarily a good idea.

I realize there's a downside. I was just wondering if it was possible. Thank you for the clarification. :smallsmile:

Also, there are more than three Solar Circle spells. Just the basics would be Adamant Countermagic, Adamant Circle Banishment and Demon of the Third Circle. If you want to destroy huge regions, there are also Rain of Doom and Total Annihilation. If you want to restore huge regions, you have Benediction of Archgenesis and Light of Solar Cleansing.

I was just talking about the three in the core book, I realize that setting-wise and supplementary-book-wise, there are far more.

Rhyvurg

2010-10-27, 04:00 PM

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Rhyvurg|Someday maybe|Yes|Alchemical|Solar|Terrestrial|Anything, really[/table]

aetherialDawn

2010-10-27, 09:11 PM

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
aetherialDawn|Not Right Now|Yes|Lunar/Alchemical|Solar|Terrestrial|Any[/table]

Erith

2010-10-28, 01:44 AM

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
erith|no|Yes|Lunar|Alchemical|Solar|Any[/table]

Ganurath

2010-10-28, 12:49 PM

Likewise, Graceful Wicked Masques is cool because you get an indepth look at the Fair Folk. Unfortunately, the mechanics of the book might be getting some hefty errata soon, so unless you really, really like the Fair Folk you might want to hold off on this one for a bit.I keep hearing this rumor of errata, and it's making me skittish. Is this something that's definitely happening, or just something that people talk about like Sidereal errata?

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-28, 12:53 PM

I keep hearing this rumor of errata, and it's making me skittish. Is this something that's definitely happening, or just something that people talk about like Sidereal errata?

Both Sidereal errata and GWM errata are things that are really, definitely happening. We just don't quite know when. We (as Exalted players) believe that the latter will come out before Broken-Winged Crane, but that's about all we know.

Kyeudo

2010-10-28, 02:05 PM

I keep hearing this rumor of errata, and it's making me skittish. Is this something that's definitely happening, or just something that people talk about like Sidereal errata?

Holden has stated he is a week or less from finishing the Errata for Graceful Wicked Masks and then will start in on the Sidereals book.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-28, 03:10 PM

Hey, here's an idea! Let's post fights and other scenes that are reminiscent of Exalted!

I'll start with this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx9t1sq6y0U&feature=related) posted in another thread earlier. It's like a fight between a Dawn Caste and a Terrestrial soldier (possibly a Fire Aspect), who only use Excellencies and other non-obvious Charms, but the power disparity is clear.

Toptomcat

2010-10-28, 04:09 PM

Looked more like 'stubborn-ass heroic mortal pisses off Dragonblooded-tier Exalt' to me, really.

tonberrian

2010-10-28, 04:12 PM

I really like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxlwDTQPsXs) fight - Terrestrial vs. Alchemical? Good stuff.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-28, 04:23 PM

Looked more like 'stubborn-ass heroic mortal pisses off Dragonblooded-tier Exalt' to me, really.

No, the mortals are the guards that die at the very beginning.

golentan

2010-10-28, 05:28 PM

Here's a couple. I'd be inclined to put Margery Daw as a no moon lunar for obvious reasons. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a_8rv68r4U&feature=related) The Tomougara would be infernals, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55JdiTccCmE&feature=related)and Rinne demons. (http://www.youtube.com/user/HDanimefights#p/c/E8BE5FADE795C5FD/0/zKUxgX0fWCY) Yuji and other mystes would be ghosts (though he's got to be abnormally high essence towards the end. The guy he's beating on is really, really weak, but still...). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvTYLLVNnKE) Wilhelmina's probably a Chosen of Endings with a martial art style that's a combination of Dreaming Pearl Courtesan and something else. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5eU33lxEEA) Shana, despite the fire motif, I'd prolly peg as a solar just for sheer epic scale and her frequent use of what have to be celestial level powers.

Xefas

2010-10-28, 08:16 PM

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-28, 08:24 PM

This video at 2:28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3HXgvl8lp0) is probably the closest approximation of Exalted-level combat I've ever seen in vidja game form.

It's Skateboarding-Old-Testament-God-With-a-Shotgun vs. Cthulhu
That's like Essence 7 celestial spirit vs Essence 6 second circle demon right there.

And about as interesting to watch as high-level Exalted combat, as well. Only no one used their perfects, so they both died quickly. :smalltongue:

Jokasti

2010-10-28, 08:30 PM

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Jokasti|Yes|Yes|Alchemical|Lunar|Solar|Anything.
Kyeudo|Yes|Yes|Alchemical|Infernal|Solar|Sandbox.
Neon Knight|Yes|Yes|DB|Lunar|Solar|!=kingdom building
Reynard|Yes|Yes|Solar|DB|Lunar|Anything
Lord Raziere|No|Yes|Abyssal|Sidereal|Lunar|Anything
Britter|No|Yes|Solar|||Anything
Yuki_Akuma|Maybe/No|Yes|Sidereal|Infernal|Lunar|Anything really
The Rose Dragon|Maybe|Yes|Abyssal|Solar|Infernal|Threshold sandbox
Sanguine|Maybe|Yes|Infernal|Alchemical|DB|Anything
Ganurath|Yes/Maybe|Yes|Fae|DB|Infernal|Mixed Group
Drascin|Maybe|Yes|Alchemical|DB/Lunar|!=Abyssal|Story-driven
Raz_Fox|Maybe|Yes|Lunar|Solar|Sidereal|Character-Driven
Xefas|Maybe|Yes|Infernal|Sidereal|Solar|Sandbox
Rhyvurg|Maybe|Yes|Alchemical|Solar|DB|Anything
aetherialDawn|No|Yes|Lunar/Alchemical|Solar|DB|Any
erith|No|Yes|Lunar|Alchemical|Solar|Any
a_humble_lich|Maybe|Yes|Lunar|Solar|DB|Any[/table]

Xefas

2010-10-28, 08:36 PM

And about as interesting to watch as high-level Exalted combat, as well. Only no one used their perfects, so they both died quickly. :smalltongue:

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, the combat system is definitely not what drew me into Exalted. Actually, it was pretty much everything except the combat. 10 step resolution? For every attack? I can't be the only one who finds that ludicrous game design. Not necessarily bad game design, depending on what the game is attempting to execute, but ludicrous, I think, is an accurate term for it.

Still, more on topic, if someone can find a good quality video of several of God of War's boss fights, they'd serve rather well. I think Kratos makes a damn good approximation of a Solar, especially since that Scar-Writ-Saga-Shield-In-Disguise-But-For-Solars charm came out. He's everything I expect a Dawn Caste to be. He doesn't do anything fancy like rewrite fate, or turn into a giant hermaphrodite bear that shoots cones of lightning-bears that explode into bone-shrapnel grenades, or turn his arms into fire, or telekinetically decapitate you with your own genitalia - he just runs at whatever obstacle is in front of him, be it a physical obstacle, a mental obstacle, or a social obstacle, and then proceeds to punch it over and over again until it stops being an obstacle.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-28, 08:39 PM

Something like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sS6U7pTrvs)

Xefas

2010-10-28, 08:42 PM

Something like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sS6U7pTrvs)

Oh ****! I don't have a PS3, so I never got to play God of War 3. I may have to go find a Lets Play or something. Broseidon looks pissed. Pissed in an epic way.

Locnil

2010-10-28, 10:15 PM

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Locnil|Not Yet|Yes|Solar|Sidereal|Terrestrial|Any[/table]
I'm new to Exalted, never played any games except for a couple of short ones (other players lost interest). Still, I would like to try a Pbp game sometime soon.

Kyeudo

2010-10-29, 01:54 AM

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, the combat system is definitely not what drew me into Exalted. Actually, it was pretty much everything except the combat. 10 step resolution? For every attack? I can't be the only one who finds that ludicrous game design. Not necessarily bad game design, depending on what the game is attempting to execute, but ludicrous, I think, is an accurate term for it.

It's not actually that bad. The 10 steps just clarify who gets to reroll first, when you get to decide to activate your perfect defense, and what not. You don't usually have to bother with that. It ends up "roll attack, roll damage if you beat his DV". PbP usually simplifies it even further.

Drascin

2010-10-29, 06:15 AM

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, the combat system is definitely not what drew me into Exalted. Actually, it was pretty much everything except the combat. 10 step resolution? For every attack? I can't be the only one who finds that ludicrous game design. Not necessarily bad game design, depending on what the game is attempting to execute, but ludicrous, I think, is an accurate term for it.

Yeah. Honestly, if someone ported the fluff of Exalted into a less pants-on-head system I'd jump ship in a second. Preferably one where not spamming perfect defenses doesn't mean you getting instantly vaporized (which means end of campaign for you, since there's no resurrection here), if it's at all possible :smalltongue:.

horngeek

2010-10-29, 06:40 AM

Drascin

2010-10-29, 06:50 AM

Actually, it was pointed out by a fellow player in the FFRP section of the boards that while, yes, there is no resurrection, the alternative (Exaltation gets reborn) can be more interesting. Because of the changes in personality coupled with some people having known your previous life and having opinions based off that.

It's not really changes on personality. It's a full new character you're rolling there and have to get into the story somehow. Whether the Exaltation is the same or not really doesn't matter - barring Misho outlier cases, you'll have at most the occasional flashback to past lives, and that's it. For all intents and purposes, you're fully rerolling, with all the bothers that implies for everyone if the campaign was doing anything of interest at the moment.

Xefas

2010-10-29, 01:52 PM

Yeah. Honestly, if someone ported the fluff of Exalted into a less pants-on-head system I'd jump ship in a second. Preferably one where not spamming perfect defenses doesn't mean you getting instantly vaporized (which means end of campaign for you, since there's no resurrection here), if it's at all possible :smalltongue:.

Yeah, me too. Although, there are 'brews somewhere on the net for Exalted Risus and Exalted Wushu, I'm not a particular fan of those base systems in the first place. I'd certainly rather play them than, say, D&D, but that doesn't help me, because I'd rather just use Exalted than all three of them.

Actually, it was pointed out by a fellow player in the FFRP section of the boards that while, yes, there is no resurrection, the alternative (Exaltation gets reborn) can be more interesting. Because of the changes in personality coupled with some people having known your previous life and having opinions based off that.

I do agree that this can be interesting, but it does get a little trite to keep having to say "Well, this random person who could have been anywhere in the vast Earth+ sized Creation has now wandered directly into the four(ish) people that happened to be buddies with the Exaltation that random person inherited, among the billions of people in the world, across thousands of miles, and now inexplicably trusts them enough to become a wandering adventure-seeking hobo with them at the drop of a hat, and also inexplicably cares about whatever the hell they were doing at the time."

It's just as likely as not that even if you're a saint of Carl Sagan-ly standards, your Exaltation could go to Babymaim Convalescenthospitalburn the VI, Prince of the Babymaim Dynasty. Sure, it doesn't have to, but it does become trite for that to not ever happen in all the games of Exalted your group plays.

Tavar

2010-10-29, 02:14 PM

golentan

2010-10-29, 02:20 PM

Isn't the Loom specifically designed to gather Solars together?

Plus, well, I like no resurrection thing. Sometimesa character having unfinished business is nice. It would be nice if combat wasn't so reliant on perfect defenses. I think it could work if the Celestial Perfects were toned down like the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial's just lost theirs.

I don't think it's the loom, but yeah. Celestials tend to meet other celestials at a rate a few hundred million times the background average, and that's enshrined in the game setting that if they are relatively nearby they'll run into each other and awesome will happen, for whatever reason.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 02:23 PM

Xefas

2010-10-29, 02:25 PM

Isn't the Loom specifically designed to gather Solars together?

It's my understanding that the Loom holds little or no sway over Exalts at all (exempting Sidereals, of course). Every action they perform can break whatever hold fate has on them. Instead of buying a mango at the store, they can buy a pineapple. Instead of getting stepped on by Juggernaut and dying, they can rip his arms off and spin them around really fast to make a helicopter. Instead of being effected by physics, they can just not be effected by physics. Etc. All those things the Loom would otherwise force on them.

I can try to go find a citation somewhere, if it's important.

EDIT: To the ninjas, Golentan and Rosie, I understand that bit. But I was under the impression we were talking about replacing your old character with the direct inheritor of your previous character's shard. Which, while still capable of being plotted towards the Circle, my point was that it's unlikely they would fit in with that party at all, given the diversity of the people of the setting capable of Exaltation.

Kyeudo

2010-10-29, 03:20 PM

I do agree that this can be interesting, but it does get a little trite to keep having to say "Well, this random person who could have been anywhere in the vast Earth+ sized Creation has now wandered directly into the four(ish) people that happened to be buddies with the Exaltation that random person inherited, among the billions of people in the world, across thousands of miles, and now inexplicably trusts them enough to become a wandering adventure-seeking hobo with them at the drop of a hat, and also inexplicably cares about whatever the hell they were doing at the time."

There is actually several in-setting reasons for this. The broadest one the setting calls Samsara and as far as I understand it it is like super-fate. It's the narrative force on which Creation runs. If it would make dramatic sense for two Lunars who in a previous incarnation were packmates to meet each other, Samsara can draw them together, even though both live in the Wyld and are unaffected by Fate. Circumstances arrange themselves so that both choose to go do whatever, and in the course of so doing they meet.

Of the other reasons for Exalts to meet are Lytek pulling a few strings to get a new Exalt some support, the sanctified bonds that unite a Circle together drawing their current incarnations together, a Lunar's blood debt to a former packmate leading him to rescue the new incarnation to fulfil the debt, and so on. You can usualy find a reason to bring one or two former characters' next incarnations right into the Circle without it breaking the setting's versimilitude.

Drascin

2010-10-29, 04:08 PM

Plus, well, I like no resurrection thing. Sometimesa character having unfinished business is nice. It would be nice if combat wasn't so reliant on perfect defenses. I think it could work if the Celestial Perfects were toned down like the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial's just lost theirs.

I don't mind the no resurrection thing either - as long as the game isn't crazy lethal and massively dependent on the motivations of the individual characters. But Exalted is both of those. It's a game that by fluff wants you to be heroic, and which tries to convince you that Exalts are these cool super-skilled guys that have epic duels and change the world, but where any combat turn you're not playing it massively careful there's a pretty big chance you're dead beyond repair, and everything your character had intended to do is lost unless your circlemates happen to want to honor your memory by continuing your objectives.

And about the reincarnation thing... the thing is, and that was my only point before, I don't honestly see the difference between a character with the same shard and another with a different one - they're still completely different people to the original, who shouldn't have the same motivations and drives (the Exaltation has, at most, a few flashbacks of previous lives. It does not influence the mindset of the person receiving it unless some Flaws are coming into play. I'd consider more of a reincarnation a guy who got the same recycled soul than whoever got the same Exaltation. Exaltation-transference is more a guy passing on the sauce to the next guy on the table when he's done with it), and who you have to get into the game somehow - might as well say it's a different one than contrive it being the just-renewed one. At least it being a different one that just happened to be operating somewhat nearby gives you the chance of making a backstory and giving you a valid excuse for why this guy has XP to making it equal to the rest of the group :smalltongue:

Tavar

2010-10-29, 04:14 PM

The result would be massive Celestial Exalt death due to Sudden Kill Combo. That's not really a good thing. It would be better if Willpower wasn't your "I matter in combat" resource, though.
Why? Terrestial combat isn't like that, is it?

EDIT: Also, the Storyteller's Manual says that freshly Exalted people are drawn to other Exalts of their kind to form packs, circles, brotherhoods or whatever due to the Exaltations.

I swear I remember a quote from a book that said the UCS specifically modified the Loom to have his exalts gather together, though I could be mistaken.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 04:16 PM

Why? Terrestial combat isn't like that, is it?

If they are fighting Celestials, it kinda is. In fact, since two of their semi-perfects don't work against Charm-supplemented attacks, they can't even stand against other Terrestrials without some massive help.

Xefas

2010-10-29, 04:31 PM

There is actually several in-setting reasons for this. The broadest one the setting calls Samsara and as far as I understand it it is like super-fate. It's the narrative force on which Creation runs. If it would make dramatic sense for two Lunars who in a previous incarnation were packmates to meet each other, Samsara can draw them together, even though both live in the Wyld and are unaffected by Fate. Circumstances arrange themselves so that both choose to go do whatever, and in the course of so doing they meet.

Of the other reasons for Exalts to meet are Lytek pulling a few strings to get a new Exalt some support, the sanctified bonds that unite a Circle together drawing their current incarnations together, a Lunar's blood debt to a former packmate leading him to rescue the new incarnation to fulfil the debt, and so on. You can usualy find a reason to bring one or two former characters' next incarnations right into the Circle without it breaking the setting's versimilitude.

I'm not really talking about verisimilitude. I purposely used "X is trite" rather than "X breaks verisimilitude", because they're two separate issues.

To give an example, I'm watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer right now. The main character is a cosmically chosen champion of justice and what-not, and the universe basically conspires to throw evil crap directly at her no matter where she goes. It does not break verisimilitude for every single ancient-when-the-world-was-young horror from beyond, every single Most Powerful X That Ever Was, every single Stuff Doesn't Work This Way Usually But This Is An Extreme Exception creature to show up at the high school/college she goes to.

It did, however, become rather trite after the first season or two. Every single person that is ever given a name and more than 8 words of backstory is, without exception, going to show up several episodes later as a time-distorting minor deity, or yet another super-apocalypse-demon, or whatever. It stops being special or interesting because that's what always happens, despite it not conflicting at all with the verisimilitude of the setting.

In the same way, sure, your group can adopt the catchphrase "Oops, Samsara!" every time someone dies. In the "Oh, you just took 55 lethal health levels of damage. Well, Oops, Samsara! Like two blocks away from the fight, someone is Exalting with your exact same shard and happens to be completely compatible with your circle! Luckily, we have Samsara to thank!" Sure, this might be a verisimilitudinous response, but it is so very much trite the 7th or 8th time it happens (and I'm not saying 'in a campaign', just 'ever in your lifetime of playing Exalted').

Tavar

2010-10-29, 04:52 PM

I meant toning down both the perfect attacks and defenses(probably let the Terrestrials keep the non-charm perfects), though you'd have to seriously rework the damage system. Characters are just too fragile in default.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 08:38 PM

Woo! Abyssal overdrive Charms!

If the entirety of the Ink Monkeys were devoted to nothing but Abyssals forever, I would not really care about the loss. Because I love Abyssals.

Someone needs to run an Abyssal game for me.

tonberrian

2010-10-29, 09:01 PM

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome Chirality Prohibition Index is.

Urpriest

2010-10-29, 09:05 PM

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome Chirality Prohibition Index is.

As someone with limited Exalted experience but a substantial knowledge of physics....does that mean what I think it means?

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 09:06 PM

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome Chirality Prohibition Index is.

Oh, Chirality Prohibition Index is quite nice. It's just that Infernals already get enough love from everyone, and Abyssals need more sexy Charms.

Also, Abyssal game! Now!

tonberrian

2010-10-29, 09:09 PM

As someone with limited Exalted experience but a substantial knowledge of physics....does that mean what I think it means?

As someone with limited knowledge of physics, I say ... maybe? Check it out for yourself (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/10/29/ink-monkeys-vol-37-charm-medley-part-iii.aspx) in Ink Monkeys 37.

Urpriest

2010-10-29, 09:34 PM

As someone with limited knowledge of physics, I say ... maybe? Check it out for yourself (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/10/29/ink-monkeys-vol-37-charm-medley-part-iii.aspx) in Ink Monkeys 37.

Hmm...Chirality in physics is a general term for handedness...basically, what gets flipped in a mirror image. So Chirality Prohibition Index would basically be a charm that discourages asymmetry, which is essentially what's going on here. Roughly. Cool.

golentan

2010-10-29, 09:38 PM

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 09:42 PM

CPI seems hideously overpowered: given time it sweeps the world and even out into the wild and turns most everyone in it's reach into a cultist/soldier for the infernal? Because the wording on what you can order them to do seems to imply that that works.

The cult will ignore the Infernal, though, so you probably can't turn them into direct servants. You can turn them into people that advance your cause indirectly, but you can't place them under your command.

Compare Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe, which does pretty much the same thing without going through a thousand loops. Or Husband-Seducing Demon Dance, which can affect non-mortals (you may have missed the part where it affects only mortals) and can turn them directly into loyal followers.

tonberrian

2010-10-29, 09:54 PM

CPI seems hideously overpowered: given time it sweeps the world and even out into the wild and turns most everyone in it's reach into a cultist/soldier for the infernal? Because the wording on what you can order them to do seems to imply that that works.

If it survives being exposed from the blasphemy effect that kicks in at the ten mile radius (which should be justification for nuking it into oblivion for any local gods or exalts, literally) it's an instant "I win" charm for any infernal who has it and any interest in conquest or power. And even with the "nuke it" option, for ten motes and a willpower a day you force your enemy to run around doing major engineering projects or blowing up vast swathes of land (hundreds of locations per year) for relative cheaps, until they lose just because they don't have the resources to keep putting out the fires you light. And for a charm with no prerequisites that only takes essence 2? And if there are no nearby mortals, does it (as it seems to) just grow at a mile an hour until it encounters mortals to convert?

Am I misreading it?

It could use a limit on how fast it could grow (one mile a week would be where I would peg it), but I'm not seeing the other issues. The cult is not a Cult - it only venerates the site in the abstract, not it's creator. Likewise, the effected mortals are rather poor soldiers, too, since they spend an hour every day studying the geometry. Inhabitants are too busy being creepy to do much else.

Also, each activation requires a couple weeks to start attracting mortals, and until it expands for the first time, it's vulnerable to countermagic. And you can't make them too close together.

Though the idea of having multiple different activations (with different prohibitions!) with overlapping areas of effect is very amusing to me.

golentan

2010-10-29, 10:03 PM

No, I get that. But they ignore the infernal unless he interacts with them, rather than outright. As for the other charms, this has a stronger social attack potential (Essence + Occult straight rather than Socialize + Ability with an external penalty half the groups magnitude) AND implements a whole policy instead of a single addition or removal from it AND takes an hour rather than a whole month's set-up AND keeps growing rather than simply being a oneshot for those present the way husband seducing demon dance is.

Xefas

2010-10-29, 10:12 PM

While I am absolutely loving Chirality Prohibition Index, I feel the need to point out that it sounds like Driven Beyond Death's sole purpose is to allow an Infernal to take that last health level of damage, and instead of dying, activate Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai to become a 40ft tall monster covered in tentacles and mouths while spending that action of total damage immunity giving an ostentatious monologue.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 10:14 PM

Xefas

2010-10-29, 10:19 PM

Oh Jesus Malfeas has finally become Sephiroth. It finally happened. Infernals have jumped the shark that is Adorjan.

Y'know, Sephiroth isn't the only boss in the history of vidja games to have more than one form. I'm not sure why this would be more reminiscent of him than Dark Falz or similar.

Also, Follow the Leader reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance judges/laws. In fact, those judges seem to me now to be the perfect expression of She Who Lives In Her Name's darkest and most intolerantly frustrating aspects.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 10:22 PM

Y'know, Sephiroth isn't the only boss in the history of vidja games to have more than one form. I'm not sure why this would be more reminiscent of him than Dark Falz or similar.

OK, he's become Xenohart.

The_Snark

2010-10-29, 10:24 PM

Abyssals could already do that sort of thing via Birth of Sanity's Sorrow. Personally, I'm in favor of it.

Jokasti

2010-10-29, 10:24 PM

Y'know, Sephiroth isn't the only boss in the history of vidja games to have more than one form. I'm not sure why this would be more reminiscent of him than Dark Falz or similar.

Also, Follow the Leader reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance judges/laws. In fact, those judges seem to me now to be the perfect expression of She Who Lives In Her Name's darkest and most intolerantly frustrating aspects.

1. NO COPYCAT
2. NO BANGAAS
3. NO FIRE

*law card*

1. NO COPYCAT
2. NO BANGAAS
3. NO FIRE

I don't think Swillin's judges would be that flexible.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-29, 10:32 PM

Abyssals could already do that sort of thing via Birth of Sanity's Sorrow. Personally, I'm in favor of it.

Once in their entire life. If they can learn the spell.

Rhyvurg

2010-10-31, 01:16 AM

Well, for those who are less than satisfied with the storyteller system, here's a fellow who's making rules to use the Exalted setting with the much more streamlined Mutants and Masterminds rules:

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35429

Kyeudo

2010-10-31, 01:44 PM

Some thoughts I've had on the effect of Perfect Defenses on the game of Exalted:

I've been spending alot of time thinking about the basic mechanics of Exalted (you've probably noticed :smalltongue:) and I've come to think that perhaps the existance of Perfect Defenses are to blame for a good deal of the mechanical bugs that exist in the game as it stands. The thing that got me pointed in this direction was the Ink Monkeys. They have devoted so much effort into new Charms that essentially do at least one of two things: Make existing Charms not count as Charm activations or make existing Charms essentially free. My mostly irrational hatred of the Ink Monkeys delayed the realization somewhat, but I eventually asked myself "Why?"

The only answer I could come up with is: Because they are trying to encourage a play style that is at odds with the natural inclinations created by the rules. The play style they want to push? They want people to be able to throw a ton of Essence into big, flashy attacks and be able to get away with it. That's an idea I can get behind. In a way, that's what Exalted is about - the freedom to go as big as you want.

So, why do they focus on these two solutions? Why free Charm activations and free Charm costs? I can only say because of the existance of Perfect Defenses.

Now, don't get me wrong. Perfect Defenses are an essential part of the setting and so must remain in the rules system. Perfect Defenses answer the question "How did the Exalted stop the Primordials from just killing them outright?" I would posit that taking Perfect Defenses from Exalted would strip away part of the something that makes Exalted the game it is.

Still, the current niche occupied by Perfect Defenses forces the rest of gameplay to conform around them. Not that I'm saying something that we don't already know, but Perfect Defenses have turned motes into your HP guage and your Charm Activation into the most precious resource at your disposal. This of course, leads to the same type of question: "Why is that?"

Well, I see a few reasons, but the most critical reason I see is the origins of the rules system. Exalted was initially an experimental venture by White Wolf. It wasn't necessarily going to sell well, so devoting a huge amount of effort to making a customized rule set just for this new game would have been a stupid move. So, instead they took their existing system, added the fluff and stylistic elements they needed to make the fluff work, drew some cool art, and did enough playtesting that no obvious bugs were showing up and off to the printer the game went.

Why I call this the main reason for the problem is because the system they used as their base was the original Storyteller system, which may as well have been built to punish players from resolving things with combat. Everything I've heard about the original World of Darkness amounts to "Unless you are a Werewolf, even a combat-specced character doesn't know if he'd come out of the next fight alive." Combat was made to be short, risky, and brutal. This is great for games about intrigue and character development. Not so great for a game where a major theme is problem-solving by punching people in the face.

During playtesting, this underlying uncertainty that existed in combat was probably masked by the existance of the Perfect Defense. Because every character essentially has a "No, I don't get hit" button, it doesn't matter how brutal the combat system is. As long as a character has Essence and is aware of the attack, he will not die. And so, things continued onward. The Storyteller system got an update to its combat mechanics, namely the addition of static defenses and a streamlining of turn structure, and so we got Second Edition. However, the additions and streamlining never really addressed the underlying uncertainty because that uncertainty is considered a good thing in the World of Darkness, where most of the playtesting probably went on.

So, Perfect Defenses are essentially hiding the real problems with the combat system. They are potent enough to make up for most of the design problems, but these design problems mean that using a perfect constantly is a necessity against any opponent of reasonable threat level.

Now that I'm through telling you what you probably already know, how do we fix it? Well, we have to attack those underlying uncertainties in an effort to make using a Perfect Defense a less necessary and possibly even a less desirable choice.

The first uncertainty is the uncertainty of survival. As things stand, one hit in Exalted can kill you outright. Most artifact weapons are damaging enough and soak is poor enough that a single hit can kill outright. Even if it doesn't kill you, it still will inflict wound penalties that make further hits more certain and future attacks less likely to succeed, begining a slow spiral into the death of your character. Therefore, you cannot let an attack hit.

The second uncertainty is the uncertainty of a sufficient defense. Suppose we have two mortals, Alice and Bob, duking it out to see who's boss. Alice and Bob on different ticks. If Alice attacks, she compromises her defense. The more attacks she makes, the larger the compromise in her defenses. Because of the supremacy of defense, each attack is more likely to fail than succeed. Unless Alice gets lucky, Bob will get to attack and now Alice's guard is weakened. If Alice was too aggressive, she essentially hands Bob free hits and dies. However, there's not much fun in using Guard actions incessantly and an offense of some kind is necessary to win any fight, so staying on the defensive will not win you a fight. So, Alice is stuck either making single attacks or maybe a small flurry and praying that her opponent doesn't get lucky or launching large flurries and hoping to kill her opponent fast. In the end, using the best offense availible to her is stupid as it denies her any hope of maintaining a sufficient defense.

If you add Charms in, the problem gets more complex, but remains there, just in a sligtly different form. Let us assume, for the moment, that both attack pools and DVs are both equally boostable. Now, we have two young Exalts, Alice and Bob, fighting it out for whatever reason. Alice is currently acting before Bob. Both Alice and Bob decide to use their Charm for the action to enhance their attacks. Alice uses Hungry Tiger Technique and Bob chooses to use the Second Melee Excellency. When Alice attacks, Bob knows she won't be rolling more dice than he has in his defense pool, so he has options. He can either trust his DVs or he can blow a few motes on using the Excellency to buff his DV. Either way, Alice needs a fairly lucky shot (a really lucky shot if he used the Excellency) for her tactic to yield any fruit. Meanwhile, she has lowered her DV and removed almost all of her options to add to her defense. Now Bob's attack, even without the Excellency, has a very solid chance of hitting. With the Excellency, it's almost guaranteed. By using a purely offensive Charm, Alice has denied herself any hope of maintaining a sufficient defense (If Alice had used the Second Melee Excellency to boost her attack, we'd be right back to the situation in the preceding paragraph: two characters of equal offensive and defensive potential just waiting for a lucky break or a blunder to capitalize on). This is why that one Charm activation is a critical resource.

The final uncertainty is the problem of resource management. While every game system is going to have this to some extent, each character in Exalted has only X motes at any given time. If you get in combat with another character, the winner of the conflict is the person able to maintain that sufficient defense the longest and the person most able to maintain that sufficient defense is the one with the most resources. However, most characters cannot determine the size of the other character's mote pool, so they can't be entirely certain that they are the ones currently ahead in motes. Each mote diverted away from maintaining a defense might just be the mote that puts you behind the other character and may mean that you are the one to find yourself defenseless first.

Added together, these issues mean that defense is the Alpha and Omega of combat. He who defends best the longest wins, and the best defense is a Perfect Defense.

This is why the Ink Monkeys spend so much time on what is essentially fancy ways to get motes. Motes earmarked for offensive Charms only can't be used on that Perfect Defense anyway, so why not spend them to boost your attack? Charms that don't use up your Charm activation for the round won't leave you defenseless, so why not add a little extra kick to your next attack? This brings back the flashy, over-the-top action that full-on paranoia Perfect Spamming strips from the game.

Such approaches, however, aren't addressing the real issues that lie at the heart of the system. As someone pointed out to me, the Ink Monkeys haven't been given the go-ahead to completely rewrite the system, so they do what they can. However, I'm a guy who likes to homebrew with next to no social life. I've got the time and inclination to at least try and homebrew and houserule a fix to the real center of the problem.

So, I have a few ideas on where to start. In no particularly significant order, here they are:

Make Exalts be able to take a hit and keep on going. If you had a guarantee that a hit wouldn't be the end of the world, you would be more inclined to settle for a defense that was less than perfect. Take D&D for an example. D&D characters do not spend most of their time in combat fighting defensively or running away from threats, because they either have enough hit points (fighters) or enough defenses (wizard) that you are more or less guaranteed to survive until next round. So, you see D&D characters charging into the middle of monsters, taking risks, and using character resources (spell slots, manuvers, etc) on the offense instead of on defense. This doesn't mean they don't take appropriate cautions like buffing, five-foot stepping out of threatened squares, and so on, just that they can put themselves in a position where they might get hurt without having a spare character sheet in their backpacks. To allow Exalts to take a hit, Health Levels and Soak have to start pulling their weight.

Add risky but rewarding defensive options to the Charm sets. Once a single hit is not the end of a fight, having options that defend the character solidly without being perfect will become useful. If those options are less expensive than a Perfect Defense, successfully using one of them instead will put the character ahead in the mote attrition game.

Perhaps loosen up the restrictions on Charm actions. If instead of one Charm per DV refresh, perhaps make it one Charm per dice action. That way, using a Charm to boost your attack doesn't leave you defenseless. You could, for example, use Hungry Tiger Technique to supplement one attack in your flurry, buy a few dice for your other attacks with the First Melee Excellency, and then when you are attacked you could respond with Shadow Over Water or Solar Counterattack. This would still leave Combos useful, as you couldn't use both Hungry Tiger Technique and the First Melee Excellency at once or Shadow Over Water and Solar Counterattack against the same attack.

The last idea I have is to add some of the Ink Monkeys better Overdrive (ug, I hate that keyword) Charms to every Charm set. Having a set of motes that are only for throwing out awesome attack Charms would most definately encourage the use of Charms on the offensive.

So, that's what I've thought about the system. I like picking other peoples' brains, so what do you guys think? Do my suggestions actually address the problems? Any problems you forsee with my solutions? Any solutions you see that I missed?

TL DR version: Perfect Defenses hide mechanical problems by being so awesome. I've got some ideas on how to fix them. What do you think?

Toptomcat

2010-10-31, 03:43 PM

tonberrian

2010-10-31, 08:43 PM

Spooooky new Ink Monkeys! (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/10/31/ink-monkeys-vol-38-halloween-edition.aspx)

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 08:56 PM

In the spirit of Halloween, I now want to run a short Abyssals game for the first three to four people that are interested.

Say "Abyssals are the best Exalt type ever" to show your interest.

tonberrian

2010-10-31, 09:25 PM

I want to say it. I really do. But Infernals are the greatest, and I cannot tell a lie.

Xefas

2010-10-31, 09:27 PM

I want to say it. I really do. But Infernals are the greatest, and I cannot tell a lie.

Same here.

Britter

2010-10-31, 09:27 PM

Sadly it will be at least a week before my Abyssals book gets here or I would surely express interest.

Thelas

2010-10-31, 09:31 PM

In the spirit of Halloween, I now want to run a short Abyssals game for the first three to four people that are interested.

Say "Abyssals are the best Exalt type ever" to show your interest.
"At least one person believes that Abyssals are the best Exalt type ever."
There, I got the string in there AND I made a true statement (I'm not really qualified to say much more, being that I haven't exactly played much).

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 09:39 PM

Unbelievers! Repent your demonic, poorly thought out ways and join the true creatures of darkness! And death!

*casts Birth of Sanity's Sorrow*

Xefas

2010-10-31, 09:47 PM

Unbelievers! Repent your demonic, poorly thought out ways and join the true creatures of darkness! And death!

*casts Birth of Sanity's Sorrow*

Meh, I'm confident Abyssals will never create anything to match Latex Nun in terms of conversion power. Although, I'm Literally Wearing a Chain As My Sole Item of Clothing Sorceress comes damn close.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 09:53 PM

Lady of Darkness in Bloodstained Robes isn't a sorceress. :smallconfused:

Anyway, I'm considering those two as signs of interest. Now we just need two more people to start an OOC thread.

Tavar

2010-10-31, 10:00 PM

Awesome
I like it. Though it's going to be very tricky to accomplish.

tonberrian

2010-10-31, 10:04 PM

Unbelievers! Repent your demonic, poorly thought out ways and join the true creatures of darkness! And death!

*casts Birth of Sanity's Sorrow*

Never! Begon, foul spectre of the Abyss and lead us not astray with your heresies! MALFEAS DEMANDS IT!

*activates Driven Beyond Death and Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai*

Kylarra

2010-10-31, 10:06 PM

man if I had the free time, I'd totally play, but I don't. :smallfrown:

Ganurath

2010-10-31, 10:07 PM

In the spirit of Halloween, I now want to run a short Abyssals game for the first three to four people that are interested.

Say "Abyssals are the best Exalt type ever" to show your interest."Abyssals are the best Exalt type ever" is a lot easier to say when you keep the quotes. I did recently come up with an idea for a truly horrifying Abyssal, though.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 10:11 PM

OK, three people. One more and I'll kick off an OOC thread.

Also, since it's a Halloween special that is purely due to the new Abyssal Charms, it's not gonna be very long. So, don't expect deep moral issues and advance into epic world-slaying weapons. You'll murder a behemoth or three and fight some Exalts, and that'll pretty much be it. If it really kicks off... well, we'll see.

horngeek

2010-10-31, 10:20 PM

...but I luvs Lunars! ;_;

If I was Exalted, I'd be a No Moon or a Twilight. Probably No Moon.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 10:55 PM

...but I luvs Lunars! ;_;

If I was Exalted, I'd be a No Moon or a Twilight. Probably No Moon.

Should I count this as a sign of interest? Or not?

Dragnar

2010-10-31, 11:04 PM

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 11:06 PM

"Abyssals are the best Exalt type ever"
There ya go. Four people interested!

Wow, someone started an account just for a spur-of-the-moment idea. Weird.

'kay then, let me start an OOC thread.

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 11:12 PM

Here you go, OOC thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9673492#post9673492)

To have a nice, semi-perfect circle, I may allow a fifth person as well.

Dragnar

2010-10-31, 11:21 PM

Wow, someone started an account just for a spur-of-the-moment idea. Weird.

'kay then, let me start an OOC thread.
Heh, not quite. Been meaning to make an account here anyway. Just didn't see any open games I wanted into. In short: any excuse was enough to make an account.

Xefas

2010-10-31, 11:27 PM

Lady of Darkness in Bloodstained Robes isn't a sorceress. :smallconfused:

Anyway, I'm considering those two as signs of interest. Now we just need two more people to start an OOC thread.

Ah, my mistake. Still, by "those two", were you counting me?

The Rose Dragon

2010-10-31, 11:28 PM

Ah, my mistake. Still, by "those two", were you counting me?

Yes. Yes I was. Should I not have?

Xefas

2010-10-31, 11:31 PM

Yes. Yes I was. Should I not have?

No no, I'm interested. I've never played an Abyssal, and most of what I know about them comes from reading Keychain of Creation, so this'll be a good opportunity to crack the book open again and get some hands on education.

I understand they're good at stabbing, so I'll be leaning towards a Dusk-Caste no-nonsense murder machine.

Kyeudo

2010-11-01, 01:41 AM

What do you think of one of the Ink Monkeys' current lines of attack on this problem- making the Flaws of Invulnerability dictate your tactics and be somewhat easier to discover and bypass with interesting and flavorful counters, a la Infernals, rather than the current Solar status quo of a Storyteller needing to have several sessions' worth of setup to bypass your Flaw?

Infernal Imperfections generally beat out the traditional Flaws in terms of flavor and the effect they have on the character, but they also present their own problems.

The Exalted combat system is so reliant on anyone who is any sort of real threat having an availible perfect defense. If that perfect defense is stripped away, all of a sudden they go down to the first serious attack. Anyone reliant on Cecelyne's Sand Through Fingers Defense dies to the first person to know Spirit-Cutting Attack. Anyone who uses Bloodless Murk Evasion falls before a lowly Golden Janissary stylist. Those who use Ablation of Fire and Brass are liable to drop dead to the first bandits they meet after leaving a city. Only Adorjan and SWLIHN have Imperfections that aren't completely negatable.

Unless significant changes like I suggested are made to the combat system, any situation where a perfect defense fails has a high probability of costing a player character their life, which is generally considered a bad thing.

Drascin

2010-11-01, 10:09 AM

Stuff

That's everything I've been saying about how, well, I may be a newbie, but from my point of view it always seemed that the current form and implementation of Perfect Defenses has been a damn disease for the mechanics designers (in the "eh, they'll just PD it" way that breeds laziness and disregard for decent balance), and that for all the fluff the game tosses at you Exalted is a game of infinitely fragile characters and which will stomp in your face if you actually try to be heroic and take risks and such instead of playing "tanky" with defenses - only infinitely more eloquently put and with actual ideas on how to solve it I can't think up because I don't have enough experience with the system. And you ask what I think? I think you're awesome for taking the time to write that up, is what I think! :smalltongue:

Ganurath

2010-11-01, 10:50 AM

Only Adorjan and SWLIHN have Imperfections that aren't completely negatable.I can attest from experience that an unexpected clinch attack, especially with a partner to deliver beatings, can brutally maim a Martial Artist Scourge, or outright kill anyone dependant on Adorjan's PD less able to escape a clinch. As for Swirly's PD... Yeah, I don't know about that one. Constantly shake up tactics to accelerate WP drain?

Sanguine

2010-11-01, 10:53 AM

Kyeudo

2010-11-01, 11:40 AM

I can attest from experience that an unexpected clinch attack, especially with a partner to deliver beatings, can brutally maim a Martial Artist Scourge, or outright kill anyone dependant on Adorjan's PD less able to escape a clinch. As for Swirly's PD... Yeah, I don't know about that one. Constantly shake up tactics to accelerate WP drain?

That has more to do with the nature of "unexpected" and "clinch" than it does with the negatable nature of perfect defenses. Yes, you can box a Scourge in, but eventually he just starts running on the cieling or flying through the air.

That's everything I've been saying about how, well, I may be a newbie, but from my point of view it always seemed that the current form and implementation of Perfect Defenses has been a damn disease for the mechanics designers (in the "eh, they'll just PD it" way that breeds laziness and disregard for decent balance), and that for all the fluff the game tosses at you Exalted is a game of infinitely fragile characters and which will stomp in your face if you actually try to be heroic and take risks and such instead of playing "tanky" with defenses - only infinitely more eloquently put and with actual ideas on how to solve it I can't think up because I don't have enough experience with the system. And you ask what I think? I think you're awesome for taking the time to write that up, is what I think! :smalltongue:

You'd be surprised how much insight new players can give into a system. I mean, you picked up really quick that most Exalts are glass cannons. Things that don't shock a veteran will start flashing red lights for a newbie.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-01, 03:29 PM

I'm thinking about doing a series of homebrew artifacts, monsters, and Charms that emulate the God of War series, but before I get into it to deep I'm testing the waters with this first effort. I'll say it from the start, game balance is NOT my first priority here, it's making accurate expys of the game's elements. So here's my first effort, starting at the top of the GoW weapon food chain.

Blade of Olympus (Artifact N/A)

A six-foot sword that pulses with blue light, the Blade of Olympus is the ultimate weapon of the Gods. It has all the abilities of a Grand Daiklave, except as followes: Increase Accuracy to +3, increase Damage to +14L/5, increase Rate to 4, Increase Defense to +2, increase Str minimum to 4, and remove all hearthstone settings. The sword has the material bonuses of both orichalcum and soulsteel, and can be attuned by Solar, Abyssal, and Infernal Exalted. The Blade of Olympus cannot be disarmed except by a being with a greater essence trait. The blade lets the wielder use several Charms at no mote, Willpower, or health level cost, depending on the wielder's permanent Essence. The Charms are still limited by the wielder's Essence trait whenever applicable.

Essence 2+:
Peony Blossom Attack
Dipping Swallow Defense

Essence 4+:
Blazing Solar Bolt

Essence 6+:
Golden Destruction Cut

When the wielder reaches Essence 8, the sword can use Blazing Solar Bolt as an innate power rather than a charm, and can use it as part of a flurry freely.

I tried to emulate the Blade's powers from God of War 2 as closely as I could. One power, Divine Sacrifice, created a dome of blue energy that sucks red orbs from living enemies it touches. I think the soulsteel mote drain quality emulates this closely enough without the need to create an entirely new ability that could be used to gain experience points far faster than normal. I considered direct mote theft from enemies, but mote management is already a critical part of combat and the sword has free Charms already. The sword can be attuned by Solars and Abyssals because of the materials, but I included Infernals because that's what Kratos really was in GoW2. The Titans aren't really like the Primordials, but they're the closest allegory in the games.

Xefas

2010-11-01, 06:20 PM

So here's my first effort, starting at the top of the GoW weapon food chain.

I think giving the Blade of Olympus all of those free charms both severely underestimates Kratos and entirely misses the point of the weapon. Stuff like Peony Blossom Attack and Dipping Swallow Defense are things that Kratos would have already had, and were not a function of the weapon. In addition it misses a few of the more vital functions of the sword. Here's my counter-take (take from it what you will):

Blade of Olympus
Artifact: ●●●●●
This sword, forged during the Primordial War by a long-dead Celestial God, functions in all respects as an Orichalcum Grand Daiklave, save for the following additional effects.

Any spirit or demon slain by the Blade is permanently dissipated, never to be reformed or remade.

The Blade may be used as a ranged weapon, discharging bolts of pure essence. This costs the wielder 2 motes per attack with the following statistics:
Spd 5, Acc +2, Dmg 10L, Rate 2, Range 60

A wielder with Essence 5 or greater may further invest himself in the Blade. When attuning to it, he may choose to sacrifice a number of Permanent Dots of Essence equal to his current maximum -1, to instill them into his weapon. He retains any charms or abilities he previously had, but may not use them unless he has a way to meet their prerequisites. Henceforth, when they are wielding the Blade, they function as if they had their former Essence score, as of the time they sacrificed to it. In addition, with this higher attunment comes greater power. They add their Essence in dice to the raw damage the Blade deals in Step 7 of attack resolution, and it no longer costs them motes to use it as a ranged weapon.

This effect is dependent on the current owner of the weapon. If someone sacrifices their Essence to the Blade, these bonuses only function for them. Should an owner sacrifice their Essence, lose the Blade, and then have it returned to them, it still functions with this higher potential for them. Someone who has sacrificed their Essence to the Blade of Olympus may still raise their Essence score with Experience.

Ex. Kratos is Essence 5. He pours his Essence into the Blade of Olympus, becoming Essence 1. However, when he is wielding the Blade, he is considered Essence 5, and may use any charms he has that have a prerequisite up to Essence 5. Should he lose the Blade of Olympus, he will be Essence 1 again, and not be able to use any of his fancy charms. Later, he spends 80 Experience to get back up to Essence 5. Then, he regains the Blade of Olympus. While wielding it, he is stilled considered Essence 5 (it does not double to Essence 10), yet retains the additional bonus damage for him.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-01, 09:24 PM

The point of the stand-alone charms in my version was the sword's powers cost him nothing, he could throw energy blasts all day and not use any of his own magic. Solar Bolt also has a fixed range, just like the sword's energy blast. Their power is static, which is why the charms are independent of his own power for the most part. The sword grows more powerful as the user's Essence increases to reflect the in-game benefits of leveling up the sword. The other Charms reflect the sword's attack combos. Kratos himself swings the sword, but the L1+ 任 combo is unique to the weapon, all the secondary weapons have their own combos. An Kratos himself isn't bothered by how many attacks he blocks, he still defends successfully, just like a DV that doesn't need to replenish, thus DSD. Putting your own power into the weapon is what the fluff describes it as, I'm more focused on emulating the actual gameplay elements. Like the Anger of the Gods power the sword gets at level 3, where every swing throws an energy blast. The free Charms is why I think it's N/A instead of ●●●●●, the wielder can freely supplement any combo he uses with the BSB attack.

I plan on doing the Blades of Chaos/Athena/Exile as slightly upgraded chain daiklaves with little special abilities, the way he uses them will be a CMA that includes his dodge-rolls for a perfect defense, that's what will let you fight like him, not the weapon's own powers. The Fleece will be his perfect parry. The Spear of Destiny is easy, a few modifications to a crystalburst lance will do it. The Barbarian Hammer is a soulsteel grand goremaul with a few added powers. The real challenge is the CMA. The idea with this is to create a set of Charms and artifacts that will let you play as Kratos in the game itself, not the fluff in the cutscenes.

Kyeudo

2010-11-02, 10:47 AM

Buffed weapon stats and free Charm uses genrally make the most uninteresting artifacts. Good artifacts high-dot artifacts do something that no one's current Charm set lets them do, like the Singing Staff.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-02, 11:28 AM

I made it N/A so enterprising Twilights can't make their own copies, to ensure there's just one. The sword's stats would be massive with both material qualities added, the modified stats I posted do not include those. I might add an Essence 10 power that lets you do a mass-banishment like Zeus did (or tried to) to the Titans, and something like the Glorious Scythe to emulate his army-killing slash in Rhodes. Maybe an Elemental Lens effect, since the power of the sword's energy blasts seemed to change with the wielder.

Kyeudo

2010-11-02, 02:23 PM

Artifact N/A are still able to be built by enterprising Twilights. It just takes a little extra effort. The rules for doing so are in Wonders of the Lost Age.

Again, I'd like to state that nothing about this artifact makes me want to use it. It's a whole host of Charm effects and artifact powers crammed together into one unholy conglomeration. Any particular effect that I want can be garnered for much less effort than convincing a Storyteller to allow me to pack an Artifact N/A.

A good high-cost artifact is like the Forgotton Blade, which carves away memories. It does something you couldn't otherwise do, something that wouldn't be easy to replicate using Charms.

NeoRetribution

2010-11-02, 03:11 PM

Yes. A Sledge of Baking Smite is much more interesting than a charm-sword.

The former makes a cake pop into Creation after each successful strike which deals damage. The other is...a sword.

Keep at it, though, and you may find an idea which suits you.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-02, 04:00 PM

The problem is the weapons and powers from the games are just that, forms of attack. They don't actually do anything else.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-02, 04:08 PM

The problem is the weapons and powers from the games are just that, forms of attack. They don't actually do anything else.

The sword does other things than attack.

Toptomcat

2010-11-02, 04:10 PM

I suppose you are technically right in that it can also defend. Nevertheless, you are missing the point.

golentan

2010-11-02, 04:14 PM

The sword does other things than attack.

Yep. Like a sword which can cut through the fabric of the world into other realities on a whim, or a warhammer which reshapes the elements into new creatures never before seen by man, or the bow which can unerringly carry you to the location where it's arrow ends it's flight.

NeoRetribution

2010-11-02, 04:16 PM

Rhyvurg

2010-11-02, 04:29 PM

The sword does other things than attack.

The only thing the sword did besides kill people was when Zeus tried to banish the Titans, and even that is unclear, seeing as how Kratos snagged them with his time powers and brought them to the future. So can the sword really banish things? Unknown.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-02, 04:30 PM

You'd think Zeus would know.

golentan

2010-11-02, 04:45 PM

Indeed.

Can your sword communicate telepathically with the Maiden of Battles? Can your sword always point straight up if left unattended? Can your sword warn you if cute, cuddly, feline creatures approach? Can your sword heal every slice of damage that it inflicts?

Seriously?

Not every power is cool, but every high powered thing in exalted should have cool powers. Your sarcasm is not endearing.

Also, a sword that heals is an interesting idea... *begins writing*

Kyeudo

2010-11-02, 04:59 PM

The problem is the weapons and powers from the games are just that, forms of attack. They don't actually do anything else.

Just because it's an attack power doesn't mean that it can't be interesting. Take the five dot soulsteel daiklave from Oaedenol (I forget the name). It eats souls. It can skyrocket your damage by sending the souls of your slain enemies to Oblivion. All it is good for is killing, but it does killing in an amazing way.

Toptomcat

2010-11-02, 05:28 PM

But a better five-dot artifact would be something like 'eats souls and contains a self-contained 'afterlife' which the wielder can visit'. Something with story possibilities.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-02, 08:41 PM

Goddammit why is creating a character so hard? I keep running out of ability dots and Charms to create what I want.

Kyeudo

2010-11-02, 10:52 PM

Goddammit why is creating a character so hard? I keep running out of ability dots and Charms to create what I want.

This is why I start from Charms and work backwards these days.

NeoRetribution

2010-11-03, 12:21 PM

Sarcasm? What sarcasm?

I do not recall addressing anyone other than Rhyvurg with my last post.

The problem is the weapons and powers from the games are just that, forms of attack. They don't actually do anything else.

It is common in Exalted for an artifact to do more than simple battle, or what one would assume to be the basic function of an item in question. I do not know if that makes for a difficult fit with what is trying to be done with the Blade of Olympus, but that seems to be the perspective that some of us are viewing from.

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-03, 01:30 PM

:smallbiggrin: Oh, hey guys. Finally decided on my sword's powers. Went with the teleportation-through-flames effect. Came in kinda handy when we were facing a ton of mortal thieves.

:smallbiggrin: And I pretty much bisected a raptor cat. ...Which is exactly what it sounds like. :smalleek:

It's pretty fun. Exalted, that is.

-And as a sidenote, Mars isn't my great, great, great, etc. grandma anymore. :smallconfused: ST apparently figured out a more appropriate ancestor, but he's being mysterious about it. :smalltongue: Whatever, I love story hooks.

Teln

2010-11-03, 03:31 PM

Food for thought: In First Edition, the Unconquered Sun wasn't a paragon of righteousness. He was merely the chief war god of Creation. Knowing this, what does that say about the Usurpation?

Kyeudo

2010-11-03, 03:35 PM

Food for thought: In First Edition, the Unconquered Sun wasn't a paragon of righteousness. He was merely the chief war god of Creation. Knowing this, what does that say about the Usurpation?

He isn't a paragon of righteousness. He's a paragon of Virtue. Very different. He is the most courageous, most temperant, most compassionate, and has the the greatest conviction of any being in Creation.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-03, 04:01 PM

:smallbiggrin: And I pretty much bisected a raptor cat. ...Which is exactly what it sounds like. :smalleek:

This isn't particularly impressive. Essence 1 animals pose absolutely no threat to anything above perhaps an Enlightened Mortal. Perhaps. Some Essence 1 mortals are pretty badass too.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-03, 09:09 PM

Second try!

Blade of Olympus (Artifact N/A)

A six-foot sword that pulses with blue light, the Blade of Olympus is the ultimate weapon of the Gods. It has all the abilities of a Grand Daiklave, except as followes: Increase Accuracy to +3, increase Damage to +14L/5, increase Rate to 4, Increase Defense to +2, increase Str minimum to 4, and remove all hearthstone settings. The sword has the material bonuses of both orichalcum and soulsteel, and can be attuned by Solar, Abyssal, and Infernal Exalted. The Blade of Olympus cannot be disarmed except by a being with a greater essence trait. The blade lets the wielder use several Charms at no mote, Willpower, instead using it's own internal mote reserve. The Charms are still limited by the wielder's Essence trait whenever applicable.

Essence 2+:
Peony Blossom Attack, Heavenly Guardian Defense

Essence 4+:
Blazing Solar Bolt

Essence 6+:
Golden Destruction Cut

When the wielder reaches Essence 8, the sword can use Blazing Solar Bolt as an innate power rather than a charm, and can use it as part of a flurry freely.

Any ghost, demon, elemental, spirit or god killed by the sword is consumed utterly as a perfect effect. It's mote pool is added to the sword's, replenishing the power the sword uses for it's Charms. In addition, the sword stores a single use of every Charm and Arcanoi it's victims know, but after it's use the power fades from the sword until another being with that Charm is slain and consumed. Should the sword's mote pool and Charm reserve ever be depleted completely, the sword draws power from the wielder directly. What Charms and motes the sword holds when found is at the Storyteller's discretion.

Someone with an Essence of at least 3 can use an (Occult+Intelligence) check with a difficulty of 4 to send their consciousness into the sword to commune with any spirit contained within that has not been consumed to fuel it's power. If that person is also attuned to the artifact, they can choose to pull that spirit out when they leave the sword, returning them to existence. This communion always lasts a single tick, no matter how long they converse within the sword. That spirit invariably acquires an Intimacy of Blade of Olympus (Intense Fear) from that time onward. Nothing, Incarnae, Yozi, Neverborn, or living Primordial alike can remove this Intimacy.

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-03, 10:18 PM

This isn't particularly impressive. Essence 1 animals pose absolutely no threat to anything above perhaps an Enlightened Mortal. Perhaps. Some Essence 1 mortals are pretty badass too.

:smalltongue: Well, it was fun, which is all that matters. So nyeh.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-04, 09:18 AM

Now I want to create a series of Charms called Aureate Dragon Cascade that expand on Solar Hero so I don't feel useless taking Solar Hero.

SurlySeraph

2010-11-04, 01:38 PM

Though I don't have time for an actual game (or, hell, to fully understand the rules), I've come up with a character concept I'd like to play at some future point, and I want to check whether it makes sense with the people who know Exalted better than I do.

The idea is a Gold Faction Sidereal, Chosen of Endings. His Exaltation belonged to a Bronze Faction member back in the first age, and he partly blames himself for the creation of the Abyssals. Therefore, his primary motivation is to redeem the Abyssals.

This requires a fair amount of social contact and back-and-forth with Abyssals (though he spends plenty of time training Solars, assassinating people who threaten Solars he's helping, etc.), so he'd have some social ability in addition to the obvious martial arts and stealth. And he's taught some Abyssals his martial arts and learned a bit of theirs, specifically Hungry Ghost Style, because it looks awesome. He'd also have some pretty high Bureaucracy skills, to avoid getting audited for palling around with people who are trying to destroy Creation. I'm also considering having him use Soulsteel weapons, or paired weapons with one Soulsteel, one Starmetal.

For Virtues, I'm thinking either low Temperance and high Compassion (Deathknights are people too!) or high Temperance low Compassion (Yes, he's slaughtering people with skills I taught him, but mortal lives are a small price to pay to push an Abyssal towards redemption).

Thoughts?

Teln

2010-11-04, 02:21 PM

That is an excellent character concept.

EDIT: Some thoughts: You might want to consider getting in touch with Lytek, the God of Exaltation. He hates the Abyssals almost as much as Malfeas hates being locked up, and since he used to be the head of the Bureau of Humanity, he is owed a lot of favors. Heck, Nara-O might have set you two up already.

Also, if you're crazy enough to teach the Abyssals any Sidereal Martial Arts styles, bothfactions will come down on you like a ton of bricks if they find out.

golentan

2010-11-04, 08:03 PM

Interesting character, to say the least. Also, in any discussion of Martial Arts it is time for me to plug my favorite style of all time: Crane Style. CMA, which to the benefit of your character's goal hinges on and rewards compassion and non-killy ways of doing things.

Xefas

2010-11-04, 08:56 PM

So, I have a hypothetical question to pose.

While IMing TRD last night, I got the inspiration for an Adamant Caste that moves into Creation after the Seal of Eight Divinities is broken. While touring the Scavenger Lands, collecting data on all the various cultures of non-Autochthonia, he runs into a Night-Caste Solar in Nexus while dispensing a little Communist Secret Police Justice on some petty crooks, which is, of course, lethal in nature. The Night-Caste, we'll call him Vengeance In The Night, is a vigilante attempting to reform the wretched hive of scum and villainy that is Nexus, and set a good example while doing so; i.e. by not killing while doing so.

During their climactic confrontation, Vengeance In The Night accidentally bull rushes the Adamant Caste off of a cat-walk into a vat of pure refined Vitriol. The poor Solar spends several days chastising himself over taking a life. That is, until the Adamant Caste returns, horribly disfigured by the Vitriol as "The Jester", Scourge of Nexus.

So...what happens when Alchemicals get baptized in Vitriol? I know there's no canon answer - just asking for speculation. (Specifically, awesome speculation. Not "Well, nothing happens." speculation.)

(Yes, I came up with an entire silly story as the pretense to asking one relatively simple question.)

SurlySeraph

2010-11-04, 10:53 PM

Er... some of his charm slots start performing Infernal charms? He gets transmuted into a Soulsteel alchemical? First-circle demons spill out of his face whenever he gets angry?

That is an excellent character concept.

EDIT: Some thoughts: You might want to consider getting in touch with Lytek, the God of Exaltation. He hates the Abyssals almost as much as Malfeas hates being locked up, and since he used to be the head of the Bureau of Humanity, he is owed a lot of favors. Heck, Nara-O might have set you two up already.

Also, if you're crazy enough to teach the Abyssals any Sidereal Martial Arts styles, bothfactions will come down on you like a ton of bricks if they find out.

Thanks!

Yeah, he'd probably stick to teaching them Celestial styles as a reward for good behavior ("Hey, Flesh-Hewing Heart of Sin, if you don't eat any babies this month I'll teach you a perfect parry. Yes, the whole month. No, Irresistible Succubus Style will not persuade me to let a few slide. Stop it or I'll punch you in the memory.") Setting an Abyssal up to acquire the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick is obviously a terrible idea even if you're in a large group of Sidereals.

@golentan: Crane Style definitely looks thematic and useful. Maybe a bit too nonlethal, but certainly a good option to have.

Ganurath

2010-11-04, 11:01 PM

Hmm... I would say that vitriol just makes them vitriolic, and requires that they attune to vitriolic gear. On the bright side, they can attune to vitriolic items of any material, just like Infernals.

Now, if you want to get really awesome, dunk the Alchemical in Chalanth. That'll make the Alchemical a Hellforged Alchemical, giving them an Urge from the demon that went into the Chalanth, and a Sapience Rating of either the highest the Chalanth allows or the Alchemical's Essence, whichever is less.

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-05, 12:31 AM

Hey guys, just got back from my second game of Exalted. :smallbiggrin: It was pretty fun. Got to kick some ass. We fought a fossil tyrant lizard.

Anyways, does anyone know where the experience point chart for gods is? :smallconfused: Scroll of heroes says God-bloods advance with experience like the beings "from which they descend". So... Yeah. Glorious Divinity one had no experience chart that my ST and I could find. :smallconfused: A little help or clarification please?

EDIT: Found it, nevermind. "In terms of experience, spirits can gain and spend it
as the other characters do, but can only buy Abilities,
Virtues, sorcery and supernatural martial arts.", along with the rules/exception for godblooded, where they need to spend a bajillion points and time raising essence and charms/spells.

Teln

2010-11-05, 10:37 AM

So...what happens when Alchemicals get baptized in Vitriol? I know there's no canon answer - just asking for speculation. (Specifically, awesome speculation. Not "Well, nothing happens." speculation.)

Personally, I'd treat it as an acid bath that does aggravated damage, culminating in an explosion as the fury of Malfeas vents itself on the unlucky follower of the Great Traitor. But that's just me.

Jokasti

2010-11-06, 12:20 AM

New Ink Monkeys. Vol.39: Cobra Style (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/11/05/ink-monkeys-vol-39-cobra-style.aspx)

golentan

2010-11-06, 02:00 AM

New Ink Monkeys. Vol.39: Cobra Style (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/11/05/ink-monkeys-vol-39-cobra-style.aspx)

Looks interesting. I'll have to read in depth tomorrow.

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-07, 03:34 AM

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: I LIKE these Ink Monkey guys! Especially some of those crazier charms, like the one that lets you ride a horse like a motorcycle. :smallbiggrin:

Too bad they don't make spirit charms. :smallconfused: Ah well.

FatR

2010-11-07, 10:50 AM

I can attest from experience that an unexpected clinch attack,
If you make a real, non-negated unexpected attack, and your opponent isn't instagibbed, you fail at Exalted. So saying that unexpected attacks can wreck someone's day, is like saying that Sun is bright.
That said, most Infernals' PD weakness do suck (due to being actually somewhat likely to ever come up in play, which means that their wielder loses). But Adorjan's one is actually the least likely to trigger, without GM contriving circumstances for it to happen. Exalted combat simply does not include any way of stopping someone from moving in cirsumstances when you cannot just kill them.

FatR

2010-11-07, 10:58 AM

That's everything I've been saying about how, well, I may be a newbie, but from my point of view it always seemed that the current form and implementation of Perfect Defenses has been a damn disease for the mechanics designers (in the "eh, they'll just PD it" way that breeds laziness and disregard for decent balance), and that for all the fluff the game tosses at you Exalted is a game of infinitely fragile characters
You're putting the cart before the horse. Exalted IS a game of infinitely fragile characters, due to its authors being too lazy to avoid using the core system once created for street-level supers, and unable to do math as well. PDs are a patch on this, that allows you to actually play without generating new characters after every second or third challenging combat.

Also, what fluff you are talking about? Fans, for some reason, like to talk on the net how Exalted is the game of teh awesome, but actual fluff in the gamebooks and novels is quite low-key, despite pretty colors and big swords. Example characters do something that would seem really out of place in DnD E6 maybe twice there.

Toptomcat

2010-11-07, 11:04 AM

If you make a real, non-negated unexpected attack, and your opponent isn't instagibbed, you fail at Exalted. So saying that unexpected attacks can wreck someone's day, is like saying that Sun is bright.
That said, most Infernals' PD weakness do suck (due to being actually somewhat likely to ever come up in play, which means that their wielder loses). But Adorjan's one is actually the least likely to trigger, without GM contriving circumstances for it to happen. Exalted combat simply does not include any way of stopping someone from moving in cirsumstances when you cannot just kill them.

Holden's stated that the intent is that they have to be actually *covering ground*, not merely moving, so attacking a Scourge in a phone booth or in a crowded train or even a fairly small interior space of any sort, like a bathroom, where there's only one or two steps to take, will negate their PD.

FatR

2010-11-07, 11:10 AM

Now, don't get me wrong. Perfect Defenses are an essential part of the setting and so must remain in the rules system. Perfect Defenses answer the question "How did the Exalted stop the Primordials from just killing them outright?"

{Scrubbed}

That said, mechanic-wise, PDs are an absolutely necessary patch, without which the entire game becomes unplayably lethal. And that said, this patch only needs to exist because authors never managed, if they even tried, to work out their numbers properly. But as I can see, you've already covered that.

FatR

2010-11-07, 11:18 AM

{Scrubbed}

Toptomcat

2010-11-07, 11:53 AM

{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}

Neither. He conceded that it required some adjudication and pointed out the 'running circles around someone in a tiny, enclosed space' stunt specifically as something that would not fly in his games, due to failing to meaningfully cover ground in the sense that was intended and making Adrien's Perfect Defense effectively lack a Flaw.
Come, now. Just because we're discussing Infernals doesn't mean we have to get vitriolic. :smallbiggrin:

golentan

2010-11-07, 07:09 PM

And anyway, all flaws require some adjudication and judgement calls. Conviction and Compassion, for example. Even unassailable body of water requires it: I.E. what does it mean by cold? Freezing, Sub-zero, or just "danger of exposure?"

Kyeudo

2010-11-07, 07:53 PM

*snip*

I was wondering when you'd show up.

I'd like to point out to you that every Charm's name is not something that only exists on a mechanical level. Instead, it is that Charm's actual name in Creation. There are laws in the Realm banning Thrashing Carp Serenade from being used to slow Deliberative buisness and Flood-Of-Victory Prana from being used in Realm casinos and gambling houses. This means that, yes, in the setting they know what a perfect defense is, because what else do they think Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadows Evasion do?

Jokasti

2010-11-07, 08:06 PM

I was wondering when you'd show up.

I'd like to point out to you that every Charm's name is not something that only exists on a mechanical level. Instead, it is that Charm's actual name in Creation. There are laws in the Realm banning Thrashing Carp Serenade from being used to slow Deliberative buisness and Flood-Of-Victory Prana from being used in Realm casinos and gambling houses. This means that, yes, in the setting they know what a perfect defense is, because what else do they think Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadows Evasion do?
They might think that HGD defends against celestial lions, or gives you the soak/hardness of a celestial lion. Seven Shadows Evasion could have you evade like seven shadows, or evade seven shadows.

Kyeudo

2010-11-07, 11:51 PM

They might think that HGD defends against celestial lions, or gives you the soak/hardness of a celestial lion. Seven Shadows Evasion could have you evade like seven shadows, or evade seven shadows.

Let me break my argument down a little more:

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name. Exalts familiar with a particular Charm and its name can tell you what the Charm does from hearing its name. A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through. Solars know they have access to perfect defense Charms in-setting, though they may or may not talk about such techniques as "perfect defenses", depending on your Storyteller.

Xefas

2010-11-08, 12:15 AM

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name. Exalts familiar with a particular Charm and its name can tell you what the Charm does from hearing its name. A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through. Solars know they have access to perfect defense Charms in-setting, though they may or may not talk about such techniques as "perfect defenses", depending on your Storyteller.

Yup, this is one of the cool things about Exalted. There's a lot of system-setting transparency. They don't seem to rank permanent Essence 1-10, but it is possible in-setting to tell if your permanent Essence is higher than their permanent Essence. In addition, there are multiple charms that allow you to see motes. Like, actually see them. It would not be out of character in the least for a Twilight to be like "Yeah, I picked up the Seven Shadow Evasion charm when we had those four days off from kicking ass. It takes me 3 motes to use, I can dodge anything, and if I dodge it awesome enough, the cosmos actually refunds me one mote. I don't know why; all I know is that I can see that I have 50 motes, I can see that I spend 3 motes, but sometimes, when I'm doing something really impressive, another mote just pops back into me. Weird, aint it?"

And no fourth walls are broken.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-08, 12:15 AM

If they weren't aware of what their charms are and what they do on an individual basis, why would they have such bizzare names? Why would the designers add unnecessary words like "prana" and "mandala" to every other charm, unless that's how the exalted know them? Why make the names so flowery if they're just labels for purely mechanical effects? The game is heavily influenced by anime and manga, mediums notorious for calling your attacks, where everything you do has it's own fancy name. Do you think over in D&D that martial adepts don't know their maneuvers have names? Or wizards and their spells?

Jokasti

2010-11-08, 12:17 AM

Let me break my argument down a little more:

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name. Exalts familiar with a particular Charm and its name can tell you what the Charm does from hearing its name. A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through. Solars know they have access to perfect defense Charms in-setting, though they may or may not talk about such techniques as "perfect defenses", depending on your Storyteller.

It was a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question...

Kyeudo

2010-11-08, 12:53 AM

It was a rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question...

The internet doesn't transmit tone well and FatR always makes me annoyed.

Jokasti

2010-11-08, 01:12 AM

The internet doesn't transmit tone well and FatR always makes me annoyed.

It's there, you just have to learn how to read it. Besides, FatR is basically just spouting off the basics of his side's view of PD's. I would love to hear his solution. It doesn't take an Iron Chef to taste something wrong with the filet mignon, but it does take one to make a four course meal in an hour based on the ingredient "nutmeg". Of course, there are the challengers...

golentan

2010-11-08, 01:34 AM

It's there, you just have to learn how to read it. Besides, FatR is basically just spouting off the basics of his side's view of PD's. I would love to hear his solution. It doesn't take an Iron Chef to taste something wrong with the filet mignon, but it does take one to make a four course meal in an hour based on the ingredient "nutmeg". Of course, there are the challengers...

I think if you take out perfect attacks along with the perfect defenses, and tweak the rules for dodge and parry DVs, and increase availability and effectiveness of ways to soak so that minimum damage actually mattered once in a while it would probably work.

However, that would require careful rebalancing, I am lazy, and PDs work well as the patched on fix that they seem to be intended as. So I really don't care enough.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-08, 01:55 AM

I see PDs much the same way I see cell phones, a necessary evil. It would be great if it was easy to pump up your DVs without Charms so they'd have to use an Excellency to have a reasonable chance of landing a hit, or if soak could pull it's weight. Those are the reasons you need PDs to survive. To me, a huge step forward is putting a limit on the number of Charms you can put in a combo, or the maximum number of motes you can spend on a combo, so you have to limit yourself in how much damage you can deal. Perhaps if you could count on soak to keep you alive when someone lands a hit with a perfect attack, and you don't need a perfect defense to survive, just a soak booster. Maybe make health levels more plentiful.

That's part of why I like the new Dawn charms on Ink Monkeys, they make keeping yourself alive without PDs a lot easier. Mostly by making charms innate powers so you can use them more often, to take the game away from just a battle of mote management.

a_humble_lich

2010-11-08, 03:06 AM

I'd like to see more health levels, so characters can take several hits before they die. You might need to reduce weapon damage too. But more importantly, I think characters need a lot more dying levels. When exalted lose a fight, the result should be "you go unconscious for a while and then have to heal" instead of "you're dead, make a new character."

Teln

2010-11-08, 04:37 PM

I think there shouldn't be so many ways for you to have your attacks simply ignore DVs and soak. It doesn't matter if your soak's in triple digits--if the attack ignores soak, you're in trouble.

Personally, I'd make it so that Charms can only make attacks ignore one of the two DVs, or ignore soak. Now if you find yourself on the recieving end of something truly crazy like a Godspear blast or a detonating soulbreaker orb, thenI'd have absolutely no problem with perfect-or-die. It just shouldn't be available on demand.

Toptomcat

2010-11-08, 09:56 PM

Really, the whole 'everyone knows what Heavenly Guardian Defense is' concept is best applied in a First Age/reestablished Deliberative game, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a present-day Creation chronicle due to the fact that Solars are a tiny, hunted minority and *nobody* will know what their Charms are named. Only veterans of the Wyld Hunt will even have anything like a detailed idea of what they do.

SurlySeraph

2010-11-08, 10:41 PM

A few questions. I've been working on the Abyssal-redeeming Sidereal character I've mentioned, realized that I can't get anywhere near as many martial arts charms as I want without taking lots of flaws, and have been going through the Exalted wiki looking for appropriate flaws. But I don't have Scroll of Heroes, so I'd like to ask about them here.

I like the idea of taking Ward, for a young or otherwise heartstring-tugging Abyssal that he feels bound to redeem and protect. She would, of course, be Temperance 1, serve the Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears, and constantly break her would-be-surrogate-father's heart. Not to mention constantly picking fights with Dragonblooded, wrecking his Manse whenever he packs her off to Yu-Shan to keep her safe, etc. Can Ward do that, or does your Ward have to be more helpless than that?

Also, Throwback, for the Bronze Faction member his Exaltation belonged to periodically pushing him to harm the Solars and Abyssals under his tutelage. Exactly how bad an idea is this?

Also, Obligation, either to tutor some Abyssal (or even a Deathlord; "You owe the Mask of Winters a kung fu lesson" strikes me as a hell of an Obligation, and probably a Dark Secret as well), or to repay some Sidereal for saving him from an audit. Good idea in terms of plot possibilities? Good idea in terms of how much trouble it'll be?

Neon Knight

2010-11-08, 10:58 PM

Flaws in general seem to be relatively poor received. Personally I find that most of them are either too much or far too little for what they provide; I really would not recommend banking on getting certain flaws for a character concept (unless said character concept is entirely based around that flaw.)

Another thing to note is that you can only get so many points from flaws; I forget how much exactly, but you may find that even with the maximum number of flaws you might not have the resources to do everything you want. You may simply wish to reserve this concept for a game where you start out with extra XP.

As for the suggested specifics... well, a starting level Exalt caliber character is an Ally 1. Even if said Abyssal mostly got in trouble, I'd have a really hard time thinking of it as a proper flaw, since she's bound to helpful at least some of the time with that sort of power level (unless you're playing a really high level game I suppose, but then if you're starting out with more XP you don't need the flaw as bad...)

As for the Throwback... eh, I suppose it works. There are better ideas, and worse ideas.

And the Obligation... eh, I guess it works. I doubt any Deathlord would really be interested in his martial arts though. If they can even learn them. And it does hold the threat that if your ST is really mean, he might make it Eye and Seven Despairs.

But, my overall response, as a ST: Ugh, anything but flaws, please.

golentan

2010-11-09, 01:40 AM

I can see the flaws like that working under a couple conditions: 1) if the abyssal in question is not actually on his side and so really can't be tapped as a resource, or you go with something other than an abyssal (seriously, he doesn't have to have only a single theme to his life). 2) Never ever. That is a recipe for horrible failing disaster. And 3) Absolutely. Obligation is the sort of thing I drool over when running Sidereals.

NeoRetribution

2010-11-09, 05:17 AM

Can Ward do that...?

Yes, it can. The question is more relevant to what the particular S.T. will allow.

Mechanically the Ward Flaw is representative of an inconvenience. In other words, your character may have to drop what they are doing, at any moment, to rescue or address the ward's ambiguously endangered skin. And since the rules list that characters must possess an Intimacy for their ward until the flaw is removed, I suspect that player characters are expected to keep up with them in each instance.

The level of the Ward flaw indicates how often, but not necessarily how severe, the inconvenience is.

Roleplay could facilitate a ward cooperating with player's character, but not explicit help from the ward to the player character. That would defeat the purpose of the flaw.

Once the character satisfies her obligations, this Flaw ceases to exist...

Obligation is one of those flaws that gives me fits. Depending on who runs the campaign for you will hinge the huge effect of whether this flaw is actively troubling or completely inert.

The rules state that the Obligation flaw, at whatever size, can be broken into smaller favors which essentially turn your character into the Ally for someone else. There is a way for the flaw to be completely ignored, using a successful Virtue roll, so you will likely have to convince someone that you really wish to roleplay this aspect of your concept.

Kylarra

2010-11-09, 11:40 AM

I think it's a good character concept, but it's one more suited towards a game that's playing with established characters (ie starting with XP) than something a starting Sidereal would be doing. So in a starting game, you'd want to take the core of the concept, "a Sidereal that wants to help Abyssals", and work towards setting the foundation of learning martial arts and whatnot. Rather than trying to have already had contact and traded charms, maybe he's just really interested in meeting them and getting a chance to try to parlay and such. That sort of thing.

You'll also need to justify, to an extent, your knowledge about Abyssals. The abyssal sourcebook is pretty clear that Sidereals don't know that Abyssals = fallen Solars, so the redemption aspect is a bit swingy without a lot of luck (in guessing) and some formidable research. OTOH, it's possible that your character is just one of the ones that believes they're related to Solars somehow and thinks they can be saved. I just want you to be aware, that the status quo is that no one knows for sure where they're coming from. So the other siddies might think you're crazy for thinking that way.

Neon Knight

2010-11-09, 02:37 PM

I think it's a good character concept, but it's one more suited towards a game that's playing with established characters (ie starting with XP) than something a starting Sidereal would be doing. So in a starting game, you'd want to take the core of the concept, "a Sidereal that wants to help Abyssals", and work towards setting the foundation of learning martial arts and whatnot. Rather than trying to have already had contact and traded charms, maybe he's just really interested in meeting them and getting a chance to try to parlay and such. That sort of thing.

Pretty much what I said.

You'll also need to justify, to an extent, your knowledge about Abyssals. The abyssal sourcebook is pretty clear that Sidereals don't know that Abyssals = fallen Solars, so the redemption aspect is a bit swingy without a lot of luck (in guessing) and some formidable research. OTOH, it's possible that your character is just one of the ones that believes they're related to Solars somehow and thinks they can be saved. I just want you to be aware, that the status quo is that no one knows for sure where they're coming from. So the other siddies might think you're crazy for thinking that way.

That's what the fluff implies, but I personally find that pretty weak. I mean, anyone with any experience or knowledge of Abyssals is going to notice the similarities, what with the mirrored castes and the mirrored charms... the Deathlords and Neverborn aren't exactly subtle about it, you know. Really, it isn't that hard to figure out that there is some sort of connection.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-09, 02:45 PM

The thing is, most Sidereals don't have experience with Abyssals - there's only a hundred Abyssals and a hundred Sidereals, so they don't intersect much. And Siddies can't divine anything about them, because they're outside Fate.

The mirrored castes don't mean much - Lunars and Sidereals have similar castes, too! And they can't tell what their Caste Abilities are.

Teln

2010-11-09, 02:50 PM

What about the caste marks? The Abyssal marks are exact duplicates of the Solar marks, except for the coloration. All it would really take is one good (higher of Wits or Intelligence+Lore) roll.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-09, 03:23 PM

And Siddies can't divine anything about them, because they're outside Fate.

They aren't, actually, without specific Charms. They have no place within the Tapestry of Creation, but they can be affected by astrology and other Charms with the Fate keyword unless they have Immortal Malevolence Enslavement or any other Charm that puts them outside of Fate for its duration.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-09, 03:39 PM

Don't they only become part of Fate if they spend a lot of time in Creation?

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-09, 03:41 PM

No, they are not naturally outside Fate. Their strand in the Loom snaps when they Exalt, but they are still subject to effects that rely on Fate.

SurlySeraph

2010-11-09, 04:14 PM

Thanks for the advice.

On the Ward, I was planning on her being a massive liability and not remotely an ally - i.e., needing to be rescued after getting into a fight with an entire Solar Circle, then skipping off with just enough thanks (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Exquisite_Etiquette_Style) that the Sidereal can't give up on her (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Honey-Tongued_Serpent_Attack).

For Obligation, I'll go with another Sidereal who got him out of an audit, to avoid being too one-note.

I missed that Sids don't generally know that the Abyssals are fallen Solars; I guess that's sort of like the Great Curse, near-universal OOC knowledge that's much rarer IC. I'll raise his Lore score, then.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm being too ambitious on the Martial Arts for a starting character. My wish list for Charms was:
*Crane Style up to Crossed Wings Denial and Humbling Enlightenment Commentary (I'd be OK with dropping CWD, though I definitely want HEC for the teaching ability)
*Hungry Ghost Style up to Lunging Phantom Method (for surprise attacks in combat, and for flavor I like more than Crystal Chameleon's sneaky-in-combat tricks)
*Violet Bier of Sorrows Style up to Joy in Adversity Stance
*Sifu's Useful Fingers, from Throne Shadow Style
*Efficient Secretary Technique
*Impeding the Flow
*Underling Invisibility Practice
*Force Decision.
Which is 17 charms, when I start with 12 and can buy 3 more with bonus points without taking flaws.

I think Kylarra's right that I should start rather simpler for a starting Sidereal, in which case I could definitely drop the Hungry Ghost Style charms and probably decide on two more of those charms I could do without, to use my bonus points on Raising Essence or something else that would be more efficient.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-10, 05:57 AM

Food for thought to any setting-detail-fans out there.

When the Exalted were first created, it was a time for the Dawn Castes, since the Primordial War was going on.

After it ended, the Solars became the holy leaders of Creation and the survivors of the edges of the world, so Zeniths were at their height.

Near the end of the First Age, it was a time of magical and scientific innovation and brilliant madness, so Twilights were at the fore.

After the Usurpation, the few Solars left had to hide their glory, so it was the era of the Night Castes.

And now, as the Solars return, they have to bind Creation together once more, which is the talent of Eclipses.

Creation has been going through periods of the Solar Castes since the Exalted were first created, it seems. The question then is, what happens after the era of the Eclipse?

Fearan

2010-11-10, 06:33 AM

The question then is, what happens after the era of the Eclipse?
Dawn, once more? After reading the RoTSE I think it looks realistic

horngeek

2010-11-10, 07:00 AM

*new Ink Monkeys*

*reads*

...does the Daystar know SMA, then?

Actually, that would be FREAKING AWESOME. Thinking about it, impossible, but FREAKING AWESOME. Because it needs to be said twice.

*finishes reading*

...LUNA bails out Sol when he's been completely outmaneuvered? In such an awesome, awesome way as well?

:D *not worthy*

Kylarra

2010-11-10, 11:29 AM

Creation has been going through periods of the Solar Castes since the Exalted were first created, it seems. The question then is, what happens after the era of the Eclipse?The Kuckla happens!

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-10, 11:38 AM

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-10, 11:55 AM

Luna is Creation's greatest warrior. The Unconquered Sun is Creation's greatest general.

Not a surprise.

Mars is Creation's greatest general. The Unconquered Sun is Creation's most talented warrior. Luna is Creation's mightiest warrior.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-10, 12:05 PM

...Oh, yeah. Mars.

How did I forget Mars?

There's sure a lot of Essence 10 war gods.

Tavar

2010-11-10, 12:10 PM

The God's were made to run creation, one of their most important tasks being keeping the Fey out of Creation, usually using violence. I think it'd be more surprising if they weren't so focused on war.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-10, 12:24 PM

The Crane. It is out.

And it made Infernals fun to play. Who knew?

Drascin

2010-11-10, 12:26 PM

You know, I need to read up a bit on Infernals one of these days. They sound a fair bit more interesting than Solars and Abyssals, at least.

FatR

2010-11-10, 12:30 PM

{Scrubbed}

Kylarra

2010-11-10, 12:31 PM

I will say Infernals are my least favorite group of exalts to try to find charms for, and with only 50 of them, kind of credibility straining to make a circle-game with.

FatR

2010-11-10, 12:40 PM

I was wondering when you'd show up.

I'd like to point out to you that every Charm's name is not something that only exists on a mechanical level. Instead, it is that Charm's actual name in Creation. There are laws in the Realm banning Thrashing Carp Serenade from being used to slow Deliberative buisness and Flood-Of-Victory Prana from being used in Realm casinos and gambling houses. This means that, yes, in the setting they know what a perfect defense is, because what else do they think Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadows Evasion do?
This means nothing, except that the setting is not consistent with itself. Which is not really news.

FatR

2010-11-10, 12:44 PM

Let me break my argument down a little more:

Exalts and other supernatural beings in Creation know that each of their individual supernatural tricks is a seperate technique, each with their own name.
Except when they don't. Like, in the setting fiction.

A Solar who knows Heavenly Guardian Defense will know that it is a parry that nothing can break through.
Yet big explosions are supposed to be a big deal in the setting.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-10, 12:47 PM

Have you ever heard of the "edit" function?

And if you don't like the game, why do you feel the need to talk about it so much? Play what you like.

FatR

2010-11-10, 12:49 PM

{Scrubbed}

FatR

2010-11-10, 12:55 PM

{Scrubbed}

Tavar

2010-11-10, 01:03 PM

I will say Infernals are my least favorite group of exalts to try to find charms for, and with only 50 of them, kind of credibility straining to make a circle-game with.

Aren't all Infernals taken to Malfaes, and then taught by the Yozi? So, it really makes sense for them to be brought together and given group objectives.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-10, 01:09 PM

Aren't all Infernals taken to Malfaes, and then taught by the Yozi? So, it really makes sense for them to be brought together and given group objectives.

This is in fact exactly how they work.

Although they're often given solo assignments. There's only 50 of them.

Kylarra

2010-11-10, 01:12 PM

Aren't all Infernals taken to Malfaes, and then taught by the Yozi? So, it really makes sense for them to be brought together and given group objectives.It's the only 50 exaltations aspect that gets me really. In 1e they were villainous types so the scarcity didn't matter since more often than not you'd be fighting one or two with a host of demons and such, but for a game based on them, having 10%+ (I always assume that not every exaltation is in use at any given time) of your special princes all working on the same project when creation is so huge is rather... yeah.

Tavar

2010-11-10, 01:18 PM

Working alone, and Solar-level Exalt could easily take over a nation in the Threshold.

In a group, they could topple the realm if given decent support/knowledge(which the Internals have due to, well, Hell backing them).

The Tygre

2010-11-10, 02:16 PM

The Crane. It is out.

And it made Infernals fun to play. Who knew?

Excuse me while I do my Infernal-transhumanism dance.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-10, 08:57 PM

horngeek

2010-11-10, 11:05 PM

...wait. The Daystar DOES know an SMA. Vermillion Clouds of Sunset.

...THIS. IS. AWESOME.

Someone please, please write this SMA up. *drools*

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-11, 03:11 AM

<<; Speaking of essence 10 war gods, son of one, right here.

Played again today. This game just gets funner and funner. :smallbiggrin:

Finally got to go into God Body form! It was pretty sweet. Put on some G Gundam music and gave an appropriately hot-blooded description. It was pretty badass. The infernal we were fighting didn't exactly appreciate me doing that after ripping through over half her health levels though. :smalltongue:

She took my sword, but I tackled her and got her back. :smallamused: She disappeared into some black egg before we destroyed her evil though. >>;

Anyways, who is the Daystar and how is he different from the Sun? :smallconfused:

Reynard

2010-11-11, 03:13 AM

Anyways, who is the Daystar and how is he different from the Sun? :smallconfused:

The Daystar is the pimpmobile of the UCS.

It's the real name of the big ball of light above creation.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-11, 03:24 AM

The Daystar Engine Dirigible is a city-sized ball of fire and metal that is the most awesome thing in the setting.

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/05/19/ink-monkeys-vol-13-the-daystar-part-i.aspx

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/05/22/ink-monkeys-vol-14-the-daystar-part-ii-1.aspx

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/05/23/ink-monkeys-vol-15-the-daystar-part-ii-2.aspx

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/05/24/ink-monkeys-vol-16-the-daystar-part-ii-3.aspx

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/05/31/ink-monkeys-vol-17-the-daystar-part-iii.aspx

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/11/09/ink-monkeys-vol-the-daystar-finale.aspx

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-11, 03:25 AM

The Daystar is the pimpmobile of the UCS.

It's the real name of the big ball of light above creation.

:smallconfused: Ooohhh... Well. ...Huh. That's... One really sweet ride, I gotta say.

The Daystar Engine Dirigible is a city-sized ball of fire and metal that is the most awesome thing in the setting.

....Okay, yeah. Awesome.

Sidenote.. What's a good book to read up about the Scarlet Empress in? Or is she supposed to be left intentionally vague for STs to fill in?

Rhyvurg

2010-11-11, 03:29 AM

The Compass of Celestial Directions Volume 1: The Blessed Isle has some on her known history, but the new Return of the Scarlet Empress book has her most recent history.

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-11, 03:31 AM

The Compass of Celestial Directions Volume 1: The Blessed Isle has some on her known history, but the new Return of the Scarlet Empress book has her most recent history.

Ah, that makes sense. Forgot about those books. Thank you kindly. :smallsmile:

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-11, 03:48 AM

The Daystar Engine Dirigible is a city-sized ball of fire and metal that is the most awesome thing in the setting.

Your mileage may vary, of course. Some of us prefer if the sun is just a miasma of incandescent plasma.

((The sun is not actually a miasma of incandescent plasma.))

Rhyvurg

2010-11-11, 03:53 AM

Wait, it's not?

*looks away from computer*

Mom, you lied to me!

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-11, 03:56 AM

...actually, I'm not quite sure what the sun is.

I should have become an astrophysicist to learn what it is.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-11, 04:22 AM

It's a gigantic constant hydrogen explosion.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-11, 04:27 AM

It is still made out of matter, so it has to be in a phase of matter (though last I checked, there were about 7 phases of matter).

Also, I wouldn't call it an explosion, since it is closer to things merging together, producing great energy.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-11, 04:58 AM

The sun is in fact a miasma of incandescent plasma. Created by the heat from a constant nuclear fission reaction.

What, you don't think plasma is a phase of matter? What do you think it is, energy?

a_humble_lich

2010-11-11, 05:11 AM

Speaking as someone who has studied such things (I'm not an astrophysicist, but some were across the hall from me), I think the argument of what counts as a phase of matter not so useful. There are so many different "phases" of matter that to get really precise about what counts as what is splitting hairs. The sun is made of plasma, which basically means that it is a gas that can conduct electricity. However, the plasma at the core of the sun behaves very differently than that at the edge.

So that I don't derail the thread too much, it is clear the above is a big lie. The sun is clearly a junkie god's WMD. Save us Oh Neverborn!

Edit: On second readying that came off really egotistical. Sorry, that's not what I meant, I was just trying to clear up confusion.

horngeek

2010-11-11, 05:30 AM

Your mileage may vary, of course. Some of us prefer if the sun is just a miasma of incandescent plasma.

((The sun is not actually a miasma of incandescent plasma.))

Dude, the Daystar knows Kung Fu.

SIDEREAL Kung Fu. Taught by an elder Sidereal, using a MASSIVE ARRAY OF MIRRORS. This is awesomeness personnified.

ShadowFighter15

2010-11-11, 06:13 AM

Would anyone be willing to go over this Full Moon Lunar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=110833) I've made for an Exalted game on Myth Weavers? We were given an extra 75 bonus points (in addition to the normal 15) for character creation to represent the PCs being experienced Exalts.

It's my first character and I'm not sure how well it'll work. Also, we can get one free combo so if anyone can suggest one, I'm all ears.

Oh, and while I think of it; has anyone heard any rumours about the Sidereal errata and when it's coming out? I'm wanting to make a Sidereal, but I'd rather leave it for after that's out (since I'm assuming it'll fix the current all-over-the-place Sidereal charms).

The_Snark

2010-11-11, 07:42 AM

Looks like a pretty functional character. Since you ask...

He's awfully specialized; almost all his Charms are oriented towards combat. Nothing wrong with a focused character, but you might consider taking another Excellency or two. Charms like Finding the Needle's Eye and Cat Falling Attitude are cool, but you might not have many chances to use them; a social Excellency, on the other hand, is applicable to nearly any social situation.

I'd recommend picking up a social or mental Attribute Excellency to give you more options out of combat - Excellencies are pretty broadly applicable, especially Lunar Attribute-based ones. They may seem like boring options on paper, but when you're actually playing, just being good at stuff is pretty fun.

Relentless Lunar Fury and Deadly Beastman Transformation are the bread-and-butter Charms of Lunar combat. Both allow you to invoke lots of other Charm effects all at the same time; this is a significant advantage in a fight. A Sidereal martial artist or Solar swordsman might have tons of scene-long Charms they can use to enhance themselves, but they usually won't get to use more than a few in any one fight. A Lunar with well-picked Charms (i.e. focused on Gift and Fury-OK Charms) can go from idle to fully powered in the space of a single action, and can actually use all of the Charms they bought. Charms that you use a lot are almost always better than Charms that you hardly ever use.

You've got the basic Charms and a couple of Gift and Fury-OK additions already, so you may have gotten this already. Worth keeping an eye on those keywords when picking future Charms, though.

You've got both Claws of the Silver Moon and a daiklaive, and you're investing in both Martial Arts and Melee. Mechanically speaking, this is not a great idea. It's not terrible, it's just that you're investing in two redundant combat strategies, rather than focusing on one. I'm assuming it's a stylistic choice, though, and who are we to gainsay style? Moving on.

Speaking from a strictly mathematical standpoint, it'd be a good idea to buy Essence 5 with bonus points now, rather than stopping at 4. It would cost you 10 bonus points, which you could get by giving up a couple of favored Charms; if you did it with XP, it would cost you 36 experience, which you could use to purchase 3 favored Charms and have some experience left over.

That said, having fun with the character is more important than crunching numbers so they all fit perfectly; if you like all of your starting Charms and aren't in a hurry to grab Essence 5, don't feel like you have to.

Sidenote.. What's a good book to read up about the Scarlet Empress in? Or is she supposed to be left intentionally vague for STs to fill in?

I get the impression that it was originally supposed to be the latter, but that has evidently changed since then. Not entirely happy about that myself, but ah well.

Drascin

2010-11-11, 08:07 AM

Actually, is says in Glories that Sol doesn't know SMA, he doesn't imagine he's missing anything important. And he's so intrinsically tied to the Daystar I imagine if it knew something, so would he. But, Luna? Creation's greatest warrior? He's stronger, more agile, tougher, a better fighter (comparing his Melee to her Martial Arts), a better shot with any weapon, a better sorcerer, he can channel more powerful Virtues than her, and his unique Charms are far more powerful. Her only chance to even challenge him is to use her Shaping powers to boost her attributes and abilities, but even then the Aegis will stop whatever she tries and his MASSIVE damage output puts hers to shame. Luna is Creation's second greatest warrior, possibly tied with Jupiter.

Well yeah. Far as I've heard from some veteran players, Luna was probably supposed to be the greatest warrior with Sunny as greatest general, but, well, things didn't go that direction.

Which surprises no one. The writers are Solar fans and don't care much about Lunars - it's only logical they'd extend the same to their respective gods :smalltongue:.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-11, 08:36 AM

So... with Broken Winged Crane out, I now feel as though I can actually fulfill my desire to play a heroic GSP.

Does... anyone feel like STing an Infernals game with an eye towards going "**** you" to the Yozis? Preferably would be high Essence...

Rhyvurg

2010-11-11, 08:39 AM

Incarnae aside, Lunars are probably better fighters than Solars. A Lunar can buy a Dex Excellency and use it to boost all relevant combat traits rather than 3-4 charms like a Solar. Their Charm options are just more efficient. And they get more starting Attribute dots than a Solar. A Solar is good at everything. A Lunar is really good at stabbing people.

Toptomcat

2010-11-11, 08:57 AM

So long as combat is working on a basis where efficient and versatile dice adders are still the name of the game, then yes, they can beast Solars pretty handily. But by mid Essence 3 at least, that really isn't the case any longer.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-11, 09:03 AM

Lunars can get all their scene longs up much faster than anybody else, too - while a Sidereal martial artist might have five game-breakingly powerful scene longs he can have up at once, he needs an action for each one.

The Lunar, meanwhile, can throw up Deadly Beastman Transformation and Relentless Lunar Fury in a single turn and they're good to go.

(Of course Snark already said this earlier.)

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-11, 02:31 PM

I get the impression that it was originally supposed to be the latter, but that has evidently changed since then. Not entirely happy about that myself, but ah well.

Yeah.. The only reason I was wondering about her is because I think that, instead of Mars, SHE was my great, great, etc. grandma. :smallconfused: Which I wouldn't put past my ST, but hooo boy, does that change things. Especially if word got out after I learn this in-character. :smalleek: I'd have to worry about more than just Sidereal assassins every once in a while.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-11, 02:41 PM

...If the Scarlet Empress was your great great... grandmother, you'd be a Terrestrial Exalted, not a God-Blooded.

Her Redness is a Terrestrial.

Toptomcat

2010-11-11, 02:55 PM

Depends, really. Dragonblooded in general have Charm technology relating to their kids called Dynasty charms that can do things like manipulating how they'll turn out in the womb, exerting mind-control and leadership effects on their direct descendants, and the like. Her Redness in particular has had plenty of incentive to develop custom Charms along those lines: I could easily see a Charm requiring a Cult rating or Gaiakumahood or something similar that could make particular kids of yours into God-Blooded rather than Terrestrials.
Why she would want to is a different story, but it's not a total impossibility.

golentan

2010-11-11, 02:59 PM

She's not a terrestrial exalt. She's THE terrestrial exalt.

And, depending on which version of her statblock you read she's either got 4 or all 5 of the elements as her aspect.

ShadowFighter15

2010-11-11, 06:31 PM

He's awfully specialized; almost all his Charms are oriented towards combat. Nothing wrong with a focused character, but you might consider taking another Excellency or two. Charms like Finding the Needle's Eye and Cat Falling Attitude are cool, but you might not have many chances to use them; a social Excellency, on the other hand, is applicable to nearly any social situation.

I'd recommend picking up a social or mental Attribute Excellency to give you more options out of combat - Excellencies are pretty broadly applicable, especially Lunar Attribute-based ones. They may seem like boring options on paper, but when you're actually playing, just being good at stuff is pretty fun.

Any suggestions about which Excellency? Like I said; this is my first character and I don't know how often the mental and social attributes'll come up and which Excellency would be best to raise them.

You've got both Claws of the Silver Moon and a daiklaive, and you're investing in both Martial Arts and Melee. Mechanically speaking, this is not a great idea. It's not terrible, it's just that you're investing in two redundant combat strategies, rather than focusing on one. I'm assuming it's a stylistic choice, though, and who are we to gainsay style?

This was mainly to fit with the character's backstory. Don't know if you read it but when he was mortal he was a natural with a blade and actually took down two trained soldiers with as many slashes (my own mental image of the scene has the first blow lopping off a leg and the second slashing the other guy's throat). Since then, the character's started to use claws more often in a fight, but keeps the daiklave so that he can pass himself off as a mortal; daiklaves and reaper daiklaves are about the same size as German Zweihanders so he could just use the blade in both hands and stick to using Personal Essence (if he needs it) to keep his anima from showing.

Speaking from a strictly mathematical standpoint, it'd be a good idea to buy Essence 5 with bonus points now, rather than stopping at 4. It would cost you 10 bonus points, which you could get by giving up a couple of favored Charms; if you did it with XP, it would cost you 36 experience, which you could use to purchase 3 favored Charms and have some experience left over.

That said, having fun with the character is more important than crunching numbers so they all fit perfectly; if you like all of your starting Charms and aren't in a hurry to grab Essence 5, don't feel like you have to.

I was tempted to start with Essence 5 so that he could get Devastating Ogre Enhancement eventually. Any suggestions on which Charms to lose? Finding the Needle's Eye is one I'm fine to part with (I think I originally took it just because I liked the image of using a daiklave to deflect arrows... a good reason to take some Charms in Exalted, but it may not be used too often) and maybe Cat-Falling Stance (which I took because he has a panther for his spirit totem) but then I get stumped.

Tavar

2010-11-11, 06:35 PM

The Appearance one is supposedly decent. Since in Mental Combat you get bonuses/penalties based on one's appearance, you can use your excellency to boost it. I think.

The_Snark

2010-11-11, 07:33 PM

Any suggestions about which Excellency? Like I said; this is my first character and I don't know how often the mental and social attributes'll come up and which Excellency would be best to raise them.

Whether you want a mental or social Excellency is up to you, really. If you go for social, I'd recommend either the First Charisma Excellency or the Third Appearance Excellency, whichever you prefer. Both are useful when trying to persuade or intimidate other people, or when resisting their attempts to convince you of something.

For the mental attributes... hard to say how often these will come up, so try to think about what rolls would use that Attribute, and how often you'll want to do those things. Perception is pretty straightforward: it's used when trying to spot hidden things, track people, eavesdrop on conversations, and so on. Intelligence is used for researching things, making rolls to see how much you know about a subject, crafting, and generally being learned. Wits is useful for Join Battle rolls, plus a few miscellaneous things, like concealing your tracks.

In the end, though, it all comes down to what you want the character to be good at. :smallsmile:

This was mainly to fit with the character's backstory. Don't know if you read it but when he was mortal he was a natural with a blade and actually took down two trained soldiers with as many slashes (my own mental image of the scene has the first blow lopping off a leg and the second slashing the other guy's throat). Since then, the character's started to use claws more often in a fight, but keeps the daiklave so that he can pass himself off as a mortal; daiklaves and reaper daiklaves are about the same size as German Zweihanders so he could just use the blade in both hands and stick to using Personal Essence (if he needs it) to keep his anima from showing.

*nod* Not a bad idea, but I should point out that a moonsilver daiklaive is pretty clearly a magical artifact; artifacts in general don't look mundane, and carrying a weapon traditionally associated with the Anathema may attract unwanted attention. Not everybody's going to recognize it, but the Wyld Hunt and other educated people will. Perhaps carry a normal sword instead of the daiklaive, or in addition to it?

If you'd like to be able to pass for mortal, you might consider finding a way to hide your tattoos, too; again, those won't get you instantly denounced wherever you go, but people who know what to look for will recognize them. There are a couple Charms and Knacks that can help with this, or you could just wear concealing clothing when in large cities.

I was tempted to start with Essence 5 so that he could get Devastating Ogre Enhancement eventually. Any suggestions on which Charms to lose? Finding the Needle's Eye is one I'm fine to part with (I think I originally took it just because I liked the image of using a daiklave to deflect arrows... a good reason to take some Charms in Exalted, but it may not be used too often) and maybe Cat-Falling Stance (which I took because he has a panther for his spirit totem) but then I get stumped.

Those two wouldn't be bad choices. Finding the Needle's Eye is cool, but remember, you only get to use 1 Charm on your turn unless you use a combo, so even when this situation comes up you may find you can't use it, because you've already done something else that action. Part of the reason that Excellencies are so useful is because you can enhance both your attacks and your defenses with them; failing that, a more broadly applicable defense like Flowing Body Evasion is generally a better choice.

Cat-Falling Stance is handy if you expect to be doing a lot of rooftop combat and jumping around, but otherwise I don't think it'll come up much.

Lastly, you could save a few bonus points by shuffling around the order in which you buy your Charms and Knacks. At the moment you're paying for 2 non-Favored Charms and one Knack via bonus points; if you use some of your starting Charms to take those, and take the rest of your Charms (all favored) through bonus points, you'll end up with 5 unused bonus points. That's enough to buy another Charm, or pick up a few specialties in Melee or Martial Arts.

Xefas

2010-11-11, 09:45 PM

She's not a terrestrial exalt. She's THE terrestrial exalt.

And, depending on which version of her statblock you read she's either got 4 or all 5 of the elements as her aspect.

I thought she was an Earth Aspect? Which kind of makes me want to homebrew a Charm of hers.

Imperial Seahorse Reversal
Cost: 1m; Mins Resistance 5, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Shaping
Duration: One Year
Prerequisite Charms: None
You don't got time to be all preggers. You all busy doin' **** like runnin' the world. And spaceships.

When you succeed on the (Stamina + Resistance) roll to become pregnant, you may reflexively activate this charm to shape your lover's squiggly internal bits into a makeshift womb, that you then implant the newly fertilized egg into, allowing (*cough* forcing) them to take your place and waddle around with the behbeh for a full year, whereupon they then participate in the wonderful miracle of life by squeezing a watermelon through a garden hose.

You may have as many simultaneous uses of this charm active as you wish, so long as you commit a separate mote to each one. If you are not currently pregnant, and you release a committed mote, the baabi is sucked through a wormhole into Elsewhere, and then plopped into your procreational oven as normal. Releasing committed motes while your tumtum is currently Occupied simply aborts the additional children through a chasm into Elsewhere.

Aborted children may or may not become shambling, tainted shadow-beasts in the unknowable abyss you have doomed them to, and may or may not seek to cross into Creation and seek their bloody vengeance upon you.

Other types of Exalted also practice similar variations on this charm. Especially Lunars, because they be crazy like that.
I mean, c'mon, the Scarlet Empress had seven children. And she had a lot on her plate as it was.

ShadowFighter15

2010-11-11, 10:00 PM

Whether you want a mental or social Excellency is up to you, really. If you go for social, I'd recommend either the First Charisma Excellency or the Third Appearance Excellency, whichever you prefer. Both are useful when trying to persuade or intimidate other people, or when resisting their attempts to convince you of something.

For the mental attributes... hard to say how often these will come up, so try to think about what rolls would use that Attribute, and how often you'll want to do those things. Perception is pretty straightforward: it's used when trying to spot hidden things, track people, eavesdrop on conversations, and so on. Intelligence is used for researching things, making rolls to see how much you know about a subject, crafting, and generally being learned. Wits is useful for Join Battle rolls, plus a few miscellaneous things, like concealing your tracks.

In the end, though, it all comes down to what you want the character to be good at. :smallsmile:

I might go with the First Charisma one; I've been worried about him not having any defence for social combat (I took Righteous Lion Defence and Intimacy of the Hunter and Prey because I was worried about that) and the Excellency might be the best way to shore that up. Plus it fits because I pictured him doing some mercenary work occasionally and I think the First Charisma Excellency would help with haggling prices.

*nod* Not a bad idea, but I should point out that a moonsilver daiklaive is pretty clearly a magical artifact; artifacts in general don't look mundane, and carrying a weapon traditionally associated with the Anathema may attract unwanted attention. Not everybody's going to recognize it, but the Wyld Hunt and other educated people will. Perhaps carry a normal sword instead of the daiklaive, or in addition to it?

If you'd like to be able to pass for mortal, you might consider finding a way to hide your tattoos, too; again, those won't get you instantly denounced wherever you go, but people who know what to look for will recognize them. There are a couple Charms and Knacks that can help with this, or you could just wear concealing clothing when in large cities.

Passing as a mortal isn't a big thing with this guy; it'd just be for those times when they have to fight around mortals who would just think the daiklave's a fancy and well-polished sword. Besides, with how I picture Daine kind of drifting away from the sword by this stage, he might not carry it with him often. Depends on how much damage he'll be able to do with his bare hands and no Obvious Charms. Plus he could just grab a weapon off one of the beaten-up mooks if he needs one. Or get himself some claws with Hybrid Body Rearrangement if there's no risk of witnesses (though if there aren't any witnesses, then he'd be able to just go straight to his warform).

Those two wouldn't be bad choices. Finding the Needle's Eye is cool, but remember, you only get to use 1 Charm on your turn unless you use a combo, so even when this situation comes up you may find you can't use it, because you've already done something else that action. Part of the reason that Excellencies are so useful is because you can enhance both your attacks and your defenses with them; failing that, a more broadly applicable defense like Flowing Body Evasion is generally a better choice.

Cat-Falling Stance is handy if you expect to be doing a lot of rooftop combat and jumping around, but otherwise I don't think it'll come up much.

Lastly, you could save a few bonus points by shuffling around the order in which you buy your Charms and Knacks. At the moment you're paying for 2 non-Favored Charms and one Knack via bonus points; if you use some of your starting Charms to take those, and take the rest of your Charms (all favored) through bonus points, you'll end up with 5 unused bonus points. That's enough to buy another Charm, or pick up a few specialties in Melee or Martial Arts.

Well; if I ditch Cat-Falling Stance and Finding the Needle's Eye, that should give me the bonus points I'd need to get to Essence 5. I'm happy with not having any specialities in Melee (since I always pictured him being pretty versatile with weaponry) but I'm kind of undecided about Martial Arts. I might try to do a bit of re-arrangement and get a Martial Arts speciality that focuses on his warform's claws and teeth, but I figure his reliance on unarmed combat is a recent thing and so wouldn't have developed any MA specialities yet. I might just ditch those two charms and get Essence 5 then maybe lose one of the two charms I took for social defence (Righteous Lion Defence and Intimacy of the Hunter and Prey) to get the points for the First Charisma Excellency.

EDIT: Might lose Righteous Lion Defence since it relies on a pre-existing Intimacy and I don't know how often that'd be useful, given Daine's Intimacies.

ShadowFighter15

2010-11-11, 10:02 PM

I mean, c'mon, the Scarlet Empress had seven children. And she had a lot on her plate as it was.

Isn't she also over seven hundred years old? That's one kid every century and I think even someone with her schedule could manage a week or two to have the kid before lumping them off to the palace maids and getting back to the business of running an empire.

SurlySeraph

2010-11-11, 10:25 PM

Imperial Seahorse Reversal

It took me a couple tries to read past the name. Between "watermelon through a garden hose" and shadowbeast never-born (but not Neverborn, thank the UCS for small mercies) children breaking into Creation from Elsewhere to exact vengeance upon you, I wish I hadn't.

...shouldn't duration be nine months?
...what if the target has Integrity-Protecting Prana or another shaping defense up? The egg just doesn't get transferred, right?
...why is it Combo-OK? I can see activating a Perfect Defense or one of those leaping-away flurrybreaker moves causing serious issues. Actually, don't answer that, I really don't want to know what could be reasonably combo'd with this.

Toptomcat

2010-11-11, 10:36 PM

I thought she was an Earth Aspect? Which kind of makes me want to homebrew a Charm of hers.

Imperial Seahorse Reversal
Cost: 1m; Mins Resistance 5, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Shaping
Duration: One Year
Prerequisite Charms: None
You don't got time to be all preggers. You all busy doin' **** like runnin' the world. And spaceships.

When you succeed on the (Stamina + Resistance) roll to become pregnant, you may reflexively activate this charm to shape your lover's squiggly internal bits into a makeshift womb, that you then implant the newly fertilized egg into, allowing (*cough* forcing) them to take your place and waddle around with the behbeh for a full year, whereupon they then participate in the wonderful miracle of life by squeezing a watermelon through a garden hose.

You may have as many simultaneous uses of this charm active as you wish, so long as you commit a separate mote to each one. If you are not currently pregnant, and you release a committed mote, the baabi is sucked through a wormhole into Elsewhere, and then plopped into your procreational oven as normal. Releasing committed motes while your tumtum is currently Occupied simply aborts the additional children through a chasm into Elsewhere.

Aborted children may or may not become shambling, tainted shadow-beasts in the unknowable abyss you have doomed them to, and may or may not seek to cross into Creation and seek their bloody vengeance upon you.

I note that the phrasing of the Charm allows you to simultaneously release as many committed motes as you wish assuming you are not currently with child. Also, the culture of the Realm makes Terrestrials having children a holy, celebrated duty. And Dragonblooded biology makes even having twins extremely rare.
Dragonblooded Octomom!

Jokasti

2010-11-11, 10:38 PM

It took me a couple tries to read past the name. Between "watermelon through a garden hose" and shadowbeast never-born (but not Neverborn, thank the UCS for small mercies) children breaking into Creation from Elsewhere to exact vengeance upon you, I wish I hadn't.

...shouldn't duration be nine months?
...what if the target has Integrity-Protecting Prana or another shaping defense up? The egg just doesn't get transferred, right?
...why is it Combo-OK? I can see activating a Perfect Defense or one of those leaping-away flurrybreaker moves causing serious issues. Actually, don't answer that, I really don't want to know what could be reasonably combo'd with this.

I think gestation is longer in Creation than Earth, and their year is something like 425 days. Plus, months are different, so I think it would be 37-42 weeks if translated as is. Unless weeks are different, but I forget.
~
Husband-Seducing Demon Dance, any of the sex-y charms Lunars have, that Sidereal charm so that you literally have a town raising a child (that might work for Alchemicals too...Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations?), especially those Glories: Luna Stamina charms. *assumes Eclipse caste*

ShadowFighter15

2010-11-11, 10:41 PM

Just did the number crunching (and realising that Righteous Lion Defence is a pre-req for Intimacy of the Hunter and Prey) and after losing Needle's Eye and Cat Attitude, I was able to get the bonus points for Essence 5 and Devastating Ogre Enhancement and still had one point left over, which I'll just use for a one dot MA specialty for fighting with claws.

Would someone be able to double-check my math? Check here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=110833) in a few minutes or so to see the revised list (haven't posted the changes yet).

Toptomcat

2010-11-11, 10:43 PM

I think gestation is longer in Creation than Earth...

Not for mortals, but Dragonblooded have extended gestation periods.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-11, 11:22 PM

..I'm going to use that Charm on some unsuspecting players.

Xefas

2010-11-12, 12:02 AM

...shouldn't duration be nine months?
...what if the target has Integrity-Protecting Prana or another shaping defense up? The egg just doesn't get transferred, right?
...why is it Combo-OK? I can see activating a Perfect Defense or one of those leaping-away flurrybreaker moves causing serious issues. Actually, don't answer that, I really don't want to know what could be reasonably combo'd with this.

Yeah, if you used a Shaping Defense, it would keep the womb from being formed in the first place, which would stop the charm completely. Unless you have Ego Infused Pattern Primacy, which doesn't stop Shaping effects, it just ends them after a certain duration has passed (depending on how many times you purchase it). I think that would just end the charm as if the user had released the mote commitment.

I have quite a few ideas for Combos, but if you'd rather I not share...

I think gestation is longer in Creation than Earth, and their year is something like 425 days. Plus, months are different, so I think it would be 37-42 weeks if translated as is. Unless weeks are different, but I forget.

Exalted moms have a gestation period of 1 year, while everyone else has a gestation period of nine months as normal. However, a Creation year is 15 months long, each exactly 28 days (and the 5 days of Calibration), separated into four 7-day weeks.

The names of the days are either:
1) Sunday, Moonday, Marsday, Mercuryday, Jupiterday, Venusday, and Saturnday (heh, at the end, of course).
2) Sunday, Moonday, Fireday, Waterday, Woodday, Airday, Earthday.

Depending on where you are in Creation.

..I'm going to use that Charm on some unsuspecting players.

Ah, so I should do more, then? :smalltongue: My first attempt at Exalted homebrew.

golentan

2010-11-12, 12:07 AM

She was originally earth aspect, but has transcendence of something or other granting her additional aspects. Also, that is a very... awkwardly worded charm.

Xefas

2010-11-12, 12:17 AM

She was originally earth aspect, but has transcendence of something or other granting her additional aspects.

Oh, right. I think I remember an Elder Terrestrial charm (Integrity, maybe?) that did that. Makes sense.

Also, that is a very... awkwardly worded charm.

I was trying to transcribe some of how I imagine the Scarlet Empress speaks in portions of it. I associate her style of speech heavily with Uncle Ruckus.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/ruckus.jpg

golentan

2010-11-12, 12:49 AM

I... What this is I don't even...

But yeah, the charm is actually a medicine charm: Transcendent Gaian Harmony.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-12, 05:34 AM

I'm tempted to run a game of proto-titanic-Exalts riding Third Circle hellstriders made out of their own souls into battle now.

Kris Strife

2010-11-12, 08:52 AM

Assorted Story Tellers, would you allow a Solar limited flight by using Iron Raptor Technique and not letting go? :smallbiggrin:

Using Call the Blade to stop without returning to their point of origin if needed. :smalltongue:

SurlySeraph

2010-11-12, 01:22 PM

I've got a question about Exaltation. It appears to me that doing something that qualifies you for becoming one kind of Exalt would often qualify you for more than one kind of exaltation, i.e. fighting off an army might qualify you to be a Solar or a Lunar, trying to fight off an army, being awesome, and failing could qualify you to be a Solar or Infernal. If there's more than one available essence shard floating around, is there a way to determine which gets priority? Could you potentially get the UCS and a Yozi arguing over who gets to exalt a particular mortal?

Teln

2010-11-12, 01:25 PM

Under the situation you've described, the mortal would become a Solar, because the Yozis artificially prevent the Infernal shard from Exalting the mortal, so that they may better evaluate the candidate. With only 50 tainted shards, they're not taking any chances.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-12, 01:26 PM

Could you potentially get the UCS and a Yozi arguing over who gets to exalt a particular mortal?

This, at least, will never happen, since Infernal Exaltation is an offer and not a natural process like Solar Exaltation. And Yozis almost always choose people who refuse to rise up to the challenge out of fear or spite or whatever petty mortal reasons they have, so if someone qualifies for a Solar Exaltation, the Yozis would not offer him Exaltation to begin with.

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-11-12, 01:26 PM

Could you potentially get the UCS and a Yozi arguing over who gets to exalt a particular mortal?

Now that's a conversation I'd love to hear.

Drascin

2010-11-12, 01:27 PM

NeoRetribution

2010-11-12, 02:09 PM

Oh, but would it not be interesting to watch a five-way battle between the Celestial Maidens over one Sidereal Exaltation? Fate aside I can see someone selling tickets.

The real question boils down to the Apparatae of Periaptic Surgery. Even if a character received an improper Exaltation, would it be allowed to stay in that character?

Considering the...traditional Setting in Exalted, I am surprised that more feuds between the Celestines and Primordials do not break out.

But the best answer that I can think of is: Find someone who will run that kind of game.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-12, 02:13 PM

Why would the Maidens fight over an Exaltation? They each own twenty (and only twenty).

And it is impossible to remove an Exaltation, except via death. So even if a Solar stops being heroic (... somehow), he'll still be a Solar.

The only Primordial free to fight with the Celestines is Gaia, and she's kinda screwing one of them.

Kyeudo

2010-11-12, 02:30 PM

This, at least, will never happen, since Infernal Exaltation is an offer and not a natural process like Solar Exaltation. And Yozis almost always choose people who refuse to rise up to the challenge out of fear or spite or whatever petty mortal reasons they have, so if someone qualifies for a Solar Exaltation, the Yozis would not offer him Exaltation to begin with.

Actually, the Infernal Exaltation cannot bond to someone who couldn't have been Exalted as a Solar. The Infernal Exaltation even uses the Solar host locator to find potential Infernals. The demon carrying the Exaltation finds someone about to attempt something that would have garnered them a Solar Exaltation, then waits for them to fail and offers them the power to never fail again.

Oh, but would it not be interesting to watch a five-way battle between the Celestial Maidens over one Sidereal Exaltation? Fate aside I can see someone selling tickets.

Can't happen. Sidereals don't Exalt because of anything they themselves do. A Sidereal has been fated since birth (probably even before birth) to be a Sidereal and Exalt at a particular moment in time. This is why Sidereals can kidnap those destined to Exalt as Sidereals, train them pre-Exaltation, and have them working in some minor post as part of the Bureau of Destiny when their Exaltation finally comes. Because each individual Sidereal Exaltation has a target that is fated to recieve it, there is no possibility of overlap.

Even if a character received an improper Exaltation, would it be allowed to stay in that character?

There is no way to recieve an improper Exaltation. Either you meet the basic requirements of Exaltation - possessing the will to use power and generally fit enough to serve as a soldier - or you don't. If you don't, no power in the cosmos can bond the Exaltation to your soul. If you do, no power can tear the Exaltation from your soul once it is bonded.

NeoRetribution

2010-11-12, 02:41 PM

I said, "Fate aside," for a reason. Anything can happen in Exalted with the permission of a storyteller. Debating the material in the manuals does not interest me. I already know what they say.

Also, for anyone interested in the in-Setting mobility of Exaltation shards, please research Lytek's tools.

Yuki Akuma

2010-11-12, 02:50 PM

Then why bother asking these questions? It happens however the ST wants it to happen.

NeoRetribution

2010-11-12, 02:59 PM

Yes. Exactly. Very good.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-12, 08:14 PM

golentan

2010-11-12, 09:16 PM

Actually, it is possible to remove exaltation. Lytek supposedly (meaning if the ST wants him to) has surgical tools that can remove the exalt spark from a mortal. Or, again up to the ST, the Ebon Dragon has them.

Yes. It's called "any surgical tool improperly applied," and it works the way every other means of removing the shard...

Okay, no. I know lytek's tools let you still work on the shard. But IIRC it is also fatal to remove it with them.

Kyeudo

2010-11-12, 09:50 PM

Canonically, there is no known way to remove an Exaltation from a host without killing the host. This includes Lytek's tools.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-13, 12:24 AM

Whether or not he can do it is left intentionally vague so the ST can decide if it's possible.

Kyeudo

2010-11-13, 02:02 AM

Whether or not he can do it is left intentionally vague so the ST can decide if it's possible.

To quote the Core book: "No known process can sunder the bond between soul and Exaltation in either Terrestrial or Celestial Exalted."

If you pull the Exaltation out of someone, you get their soul as well. Bodies do not live long without souls, barring magic. Just ask Autochthonians if you need confirmation on that.

Rhyvurg

2010-11-13, 02:11 AM

WalkingTarget

2010-11-13, 03:01 AM

*rolls eyes* And it says in the Yu-Shan book that Lytek has tools made by Autocthon (the inventor of Exaltation) that have great power over manipulating the shard of power itself. The extent of that power, like I've been saying, is up to the ST.

Take these phrases:

"there are many vague things that this stuff can do... we leave what they are up to you"

"here is something we have decided isn't possible in the setting"

These statements are not mutually exclusive - the designers can make definitive statements about what is possible while still leaving other options open for STs to make rulings of their own.

Although, if the wording from the Core book really was "no known process" then the point isn't as solid as my second example, here. It might just mean that nobody has figured it out yet (possibly/probably including Lytek), which again opens it up to ST discretion.

Kyeudo

2010-11-13, 03:06 AM

*rolls eyes* And it says in the Yu-Shan book that Lytek has tools made by Autocthon (the inventor of Exaltation) that have great power over manipulating the shard of power itself. The extent of that power, like I've been saying, is up to the ST.

Autochthon specifically made the Exaltations to never come off. If all it took was a Primordial waving its hand/tentacle/cloud/sphere/wing/other appendage, the Primordials would have just done it every time Exalts approached and then killed the resulting mortals.

Besides which, those tools fall into the category of "known processes". They are things that have been used to try and pry an Exaltation out of someone. They probably got the Exaltation out, but ripped out the Exalt's soul in the process, killing him. Still a half step better than what anyone else can do, but not quite what they are looking for.

Jokasti

2010-11-13, 11:36 AM

{table=head]Name|ST|Exalt Types|Description|Recruit/ends
The First Age: Awaken From the Dream, Living the Nightmare (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175292)|Myllinia|First Age|Usurpation Survivalist|19 Nov
After The End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175646)|EvilDMMk3|Dual|Play Exaltation in 1st and 2nd Age|[/table]

So, in addition to the current games, I'll keep track of Exalted ST's and Players.
So, if you play/would like to, post your info as such:
{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Phil|No|Yes|Solar|Lunar|Sidereal|Exploration[/table]

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Jokasti|Yes|Yes|Solar|Lunar|Sidereal|Anything.
Kyeudo|Yes|Yes|Alchemical|Infernal|Solar|Sandbox.
Neon Knight|Yes|Yes|DB|Lunar|Solar|!=kingdom building
Reynard|Yes|Yes|Solar|DB|Lunar|Anything
Lord Raziere|No|Yes|Abyssal|Sidereal|Lunar|Anything
Britter|No|Yes|Solar|||Anything
Yuki_Akuma|Maybe/No|Yes|Sidereal|Infernal|Lunar|Anything really
The Rose Dragon|Maybe|Yes|Abyssal|Solar|Infernal|Threshold sandbox
Sanguine|Maybe|Yes|Infernal|Alchemical|DB|Anything
Ganurath|Yes/Maybe|Yes|Fae|DB|Infernal|Mixed Group
Drascin|Maybe|Yes|Alchemical|DB/Lunar|!=Abyssal|Story-driven
Raz_Fox|Maybe|Yes|Lunar|Solar|Sidereal|Character-Driven
Xefas|Maybe|Yes|Infernal|Sidereal|Solar|Sandbox
Rhyvurg|Maybe|Yes|Alchemical|Solar|DB|Anything
aetherialDawn|No|Yes|Lunar/Alchemical|Solar|DB|Any
erith|No|Yes|Lunar|Alchemical|Solar|Any
a_humble_lich|Maybe|Yes|Lunar|Solar|DB|Any[/table]
Updated list.

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-13, 05:27 PM

...If the Scarlet Empress was your great great... grandmother, you'd be a Terrestrial Exalted, not a God-Blooded.

Her Redness is a Terrestrial.

:smallconfused: I know, I know. But that's up to my ST to decide. And I don't even know if it's true.

Our game's set about 30 or so years after the canon beginning of Exalted, using what books the ST has, so pretty much anything could happen. Heck, our Abyssal explained to his Lunar mate what he had become via finger puppets!

...Still don't trust the Abyssal, by the way, but as long as the Lunar's tolerant, I won't set them on fire quite yet.

Kris Strife

2010-11-13, 08:21 PM

Put me in the player list Jokasti. I'm still at the beginning of my first game so I'm not familiar enough with it to try my hand at running it.

SurlySeraph

2010-11-13, 10:46 PM

Heck, our Abyssal explained to his Lunar mate what he had become via finger puppets!

I initially imagined an Abyssal with its mouth sewn shut attempting to explain the situation to a very distraught-looking catgirl via puppets made of human fingers. Then I remembered what finger puppets are, that using a visual aid doesn't necessarily mean that you're mute, and that the Chosen of Luna are not catgirls. But whatever the details, that's hilarious.

Kyeudo

2010-11-14, 01:42 AM

I initially imagined an Abyssal with its mouth sewn shut attempting to explain the situation to a very distraught-looking catgirl via puppets made of human fingers.

This is the kind of thinking that Exalted runs on and it is GLORIOUS!

Mattarias, King.

2010-11-14, 03:44 AM

:smallbiggrin: While that IS hilarious, nah, the Abyssal (My girlfriend playing a male character), explained to the giant crab-man (No, he has no weak point for massive damage..) with actual finger puppets she made and brought in, against backgrounds she painted herself. It was pretty cool. ST gave her bonus experience. :smalltongue:

Sidenote, I need 36 experience to get to essence 3. >>; I'm currently at twelve. ...How do you "train" for essence? It has a training time, but I couldn't find anything on how you go about it..

Xefas

2010-11-14, 04:56 AM

...How do you "train" for essence? It has a training time, but I couldn't find anything on how you go about it..

You go on a pilgrimage to a particular place that is associated with you (for Solars, they typically travel to tall mountains to be closer to the sun, or to deserts where the sun's effects are felt the most severely - while Lunars are more likely to travel to some sacred place within the natural habitat of their spirit animal) and then you meditate on the mysteries of the universe for 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, every week for a few months.

I dunno where a Godblood like yourself might go. Elemental Pole of Fire, maybe? The Maiden of Battles' dojo in Yu-Shan?

EDIT: Ooooo, oooo, or maybe a battlefield scorched into an eternally smoldering crater by the implosion of a Garda Bird's elemental phoenix form upon its death and reincarnation.

horngeek

2010-11-14, 05:56 AM

and that the Chosen of Luna are not catgirls.

Unless they have a cat spirit shape. I direct you to a catgirl Lunar in the Scroll of Exalts.

Drascin

2010-11-14, 05:59 AM

You go on a pilgrimage to a particular place that is associated with you (for Solars, they typically travel to tall mountains to be closer to the sun, or to deserts where the sun's effects are felt the most severely - while Lunars are more likely to travel to some sacred place within the natural habitat of their spirit animal) and then you meditate on the mysteries of the universe for 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, every week for a few months.

Which is really kind of bothersome, since in most chronicles it kinda means you're not really going to be able to raise you Essence - because, you know, spending three months going around to sightsee and meditate on the wonders of the universe while old Faffles is eating the world seems just a wee bit unadvisable :smalltongue:.

ShadowFighter15

2010-11-14, 06:09 AM

Unless they have a cat spirit shape. I direct you to a catgirl Lunar in the Scroll of Exalts.

Well; they can look like catgirls if they just have a cat in their Heart's Blood library and use Hybrid Body Rearrangement. It's what Anja's using in that picture of her and this (http://kiyo.deviantart.com/art/2e-Lunars-Anja-Silverclaws-52384580) is what she normally looks like.

The Rose Dragon

2010-11-14, 06:12 AM

The_Snark

2010-11-14, 06:29 AM

Which is really kind of bothersome, since in most chronicles it kinda means you're not really going to be able to raise you Essence - because, you know, spending three months going around to sightsee and meditate on the wonders of the universe while old Faffles is eating the world seems just a wee bit unadvisable :smalltongue:.

You might be surprised. If your chronicle begins with a gigantic invasion of the dead through shadowlands-Gem and never lets up on the action, then you're not going to have a lot of opportunities to raise your Essence, true. But otherwise? It's pretty reasonable to take a bit of time off to train. Sure, there are plenty of threats looming off in the distance, but Solars don't have the bird's-eye view of the world that we do; they aren't aware of every threat to Creation. Many of them feel (rightly) that they need to take some time to prepare before they try to take on the entire Realm, or the Mask of Winters, or whoever they've decided to oppose.

Also worth noting that completing your Motivation affords you the opportunity to increase your Essence; you still have to pay the experience (and I'd imagine a nice ST would let you go into debt or hold off until you had enough), but you don't need the training time. Personal growth through action, rather than meditation. Granted, that situation doesn't come up very often, but then you won't need it very often. The transition from Essence 2 to 3 is instant (for Solars and other Exalts, anyway), and it'll take you a good long while to get the point where you need Essence 5.

Mind you, if you are playing a nonstop-action game where it would be ludicrous to run off and meditate on a mountaintop for a month, and you picked a Motivation that's too open-ended to complete (like "Defend Creation")... well, hopefully your ST will have mercy on you and let you raise Essence at suitably dramatic points.