General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course.

[Drascin]

The alternative is completing your motivation, which allows you to bypass the training time.

Thing is, at least in the couple games I've started to play in, most people go for either massive epic end-goals, or simply for representing the character's greatest drive as their Motivation. The end-goals thing are something you can only get around the end of the campaign, because they're part of the chronicle's whole objective, and the character drive is something that just drives you forward, but can't truly ever be completely done. Either way, the rule is utterly useless.

For example, a sampling of Motivations of random players around the games I'm currently in: "To give those that deserve it a second chance, and take it away from those that don't", "To do everything in my power to thwart the Mask of Winters", "To protect those who can't protect themselves", "To bring peace to all of the East", "To end the suffering of the people of Autochtonia".

Most of those are basically infinite things that can't be "achieved", only "done" day after day - and the few that can be achieved (such as the one about the East) are all but the campaign's end-objective. In either case, you don't get to raise Essence.

EDIT due to ninjas:


You might be surprised. If your chronicle begins with a gigantic invasion of the dead through shadowlands-Gem and never lets up on the action, then you're not going to have a lot of opportunities to raise your Essence, true. But otherwise? It's pretty reasonable to take a bit of time off to train. Sure, there are plenty of threats looming off in the distance, but Solars don't have the bird's-eye view of the world that we do; they aren't aware of every threat to Creation. Many of them feel (rightly) that they need to take some time to prepare before they try to take on the entire Realm, or the Mask of Winters, or whoever they've decided to oppose.

Thing is, even if it's just you against a particular threat, say a Deathlord... it seems rather suicidal to give him three months of peace to plan and scheme and increase his domains to his heart's content while you're off in a voyage to the gods know where, unable to do anything other than meditate if you want it to do anything - likely leaving your circle to deal with things without you in the meantime. Three months is a lot of time.

[The_Snark]

*shrugs* It's not something you do lightly, that's for sure. But you can't really avoid giving him time to scheme, unless you intend to try and invade Thorns right away. You'll probably want to find allies, maybe build up an army... prepare to face him, in other words. Raising Essence is more spiritual and less conspicuous than raising armies, but it is a way of preparation. From our cultural perspective, it looks like negligence, but in-setting it matters. There's no point rushing to face the Mask if you cannot actually beat him.

And the Mask of Winters has already had 4 years to scheme and plan—centuries, if you count his time in the Underworld. Immortal beings are apparently pretty bad at working quickly.

Most games I've seen—not all, but most—do have a downtime mechanic of some kind. Say a Circle's Zenith wants to raise Essence; he goes off to meditate, while the Dawn trains his Tiger Warriors, the Twilight forges artifacts, and the Night and Eclipse run interference with the Mask's operations. (This isn't played out; it's just something that happens during downtime. Perhaps they're paying XP for backgrounds, or using the time to learn Charms.) Maybe next time the Night will want to raise Essence, and the Zenith will rally support among the Marukani while that happens.

There are plenty of actions in Exalted that can happen over a dramatic timescale, and a few that only work that way. A crafting-based Twilight, for example, would be useless in the kind of game you described, because even simple artifacts take months to create. The game is built with downtime in mind.

If it doesn't feel right for your game—and I can definitely see your point; sometimes it doesn't feel right—some of these rules are going to need tweaking. Abstract away training times, pick Motivations that you can achieve without ending the campaign, handwave the occasional crafting attempt... that sort of thing.

[Rikandur Azebol]

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Rikandur Azebol|No|Yes|Solar|Lunar|Infernal| Any Crazy Enough[/table]

Hello there ! I like a lot Exalted theme, and the whole dangerous setting. I would strongly disagree with people wanting to decrease deadliness of the basic combat mechanics. Why ? Because saying that solving problems in Exalted is doable only by punching problems in the face is a D&D approach to stuff. :smallbiggrin:

In my last Exalted campaign (that ended hangt because ST got exhausted by player's creativity) we solved some of our worst situations trough Social Combat stunting. Or with violence threats from muscle (me).

Story Hooks

We had 3 players:
Dragon who was claiming that he isn't Exalt. (Night Caste mutated with bonus points into classic Red D&D-ish Dragon) played by me.

Demonblood sorceress whose innate powers were mimicking Solar Sorcery Charms. Pinnacle of thousands of years of hard work for "daddy" who were one of the survivors of the Primodial Era.

Mountain Folk Artisan, raised by First One himself, bent on curing the curse plaguing the Mountain Folk. Imagine Chun-Li chibi with Great Goremaul ... that is a smithing tool. ST almost fainted, but with my backstory and cocept he was ... somewhat insensate to silly ideas. :smalltongue:

Players started game in South ... I on the desert near the Fairfolk, full of Prince of Persia and Alladin themes. Sorceress in mountains, busy making an army out of demons serving her papa. Chibi was hired by some random God to go and fix damaged ley lines. Under my Dragon's mountain-lair !

Sorceress decided to find some old pyramids and dig up artifacts from there. In my peaceful town arrived Immaculate Monk and started babbling his nonsense. After hearing about Immaculate Philosophy for the first time my drake was drawn to it and wanted to discuss details with the Immaculate. Since locals were praying, on daily basis, for my dragon to not notice them but notice their mothers-in-law ... monk started talking with my dragon, who didn't let the baldie to dominate the conversation ... while observing locals were impressed how politely my dragon behaved, one thing led to another Monk got warned to not break local laws and my dragon left to nap it over.

Local Sultan, always the paranoid one, had guards hid behind tapestry and stuff when he invited the dragon-blood for an audience. It ended with already irritiated dragon blood slaughtering whole garrison ! After brief but unconclusive fight in the market square where I wanted to question him about why he did what he did (not that I didn't saw it coming when Sultan consulted me for advice and I told him that this guy is extremely dangerous);

Dragonblood fled, but did one fatal mistake and hit one of my dragon's Maidens (who were girls raised by my dragon, bought from slave market, to be warrior-monks for him). After lenghty pursuit Dragon-Blood finally kicket the bucket ... even if his Earth-Shaping charms proved to be a real pain in the neck. And then he had to have heartstroke when my dragon used Archery Combo to ... urinate on him. Of course during this combat my dragon's social ineptiude showed fully (and ST had fun accusing me of all Anathema stuff) and this childish reaction was all he could do without giving in to Berserk Anger.

Still angry about this DB, I got lost ... and wandered into the desert only to find demon expedition digging up some old tomb. Having soft spot for chicks my dragon approached diplomatically and was ... cheated ... into helping of the excavation for the BIG share of spoils. Excavation proved to be a bother with living Sandstorm Behemoth plaguing us ... in fact, my dragon had to save Sorceress and I annoyed second player with talking about She Owes Me Her Life(Ownership) intimacy my dragon will develop. :smallwink:

Excavation proved to be fruitless because there was no artifacts, only some big chamber with trone where trap-springing Succubus sit as a test and 'xploded when moon shined upon her. Aww, aspect of Luna coming over and getting rid of all remmants of the demoness as well as lecturing me about not raising claws against her ladyship by dropping the pyramid on our heads was quite nasty. But my dragon managed to dig us all out ... only to find Sorceress sunbathing with her demons outside ... I hate transportation sorcery. But she is so preety I forgave her easily. :smallcool:

Later we returned to my dragon's home only to find some Mountain Folk arguing about landscape with my Maidens. I again burned Willpower to not go on rampage and managed to talk it all down. Chibi was begging to kill her with "Your Solar Highness !" and this respectful demeanor. Her player had a lot of fun at my dragon's expense. Fortunately messanger whinned to the Sultan II's palace screaming nonsense about "Invading Realm Army !!!"

Long story short, I had beaten the snot out of the army with tactical thinking (defeating their dragonblood general/sorcerer etc) eliminating any real threat (nasty ballistae and catapults burn preety) and attacking their water supply ("Water and Food ... CONFISCATED !!!") when they were camping in the desert. Not to mention bluffing nicely that their arrows and spears didn't even scratched me. Terrorised the Legion of some lesser house surrendered unconditionally and I sold them to Guild ... sharing spoils with all widows from my city. (Each could pick up some guy she found nice to replace her deceased hubby, my dragon disallowed swapping after some consideration and generous bribe from city council "It is to avoid riots, Your Magnificience ... we aren't the least afraid that our young wives would swap us for Young virile men after You changed sucession law to be mother-daughter ! Here is the gift for Your great patience, och great one.")

Sorceress fled home by magic, only to find that on her territory was encroaching some Lunar with his barbarian horde.

My dragon learned from Realmites about the Scarlet Empress (our game started 5 years prior to Her dissaperance) and demanded picture. He liked what he saw and decided to learn more ... :smallsmile:

Thus while other players went ... meditiating for Essence or Crafting city under my Mountain ! My dragon flew westward and stumbled on some Realm client city where he did a prank and accidentally drowned a ship. (ST had a great laugh when he said that my dragon's curse made him use Archery Combo with ... spit and pierce some random boat, that showed up to be someones important private yacht, did I mentioned that someone cursed my dragon with worst of luck ? I knew it were Sidereals after all, but my dragon kept forgetting these annoying voyeurs)

I managed to negotiate with local dragon-blood prince ... but before that he sent Wyld Hunt after me ... I wanted to buy Celestial Vine and he made stupid face and said that he'll look around for it. I promised to not start any wars ("Hey ! I'm a dragon, how can I not TAX slightly people passing by my lands ?! Whoever murdered these caravans is spoiling my business ... thanks for info.") Of course he didn't called back the Wyld Hunters ... Tch.

Fortunately Raksha proven to be bigger obstacle and I managed to temporarily ally with Wyld Hunters against the Raksha with particularly pathetic Style. My dragon managed to piss him off a lot by pointing out flaws in his "grand" entrance ... and ST told me that I had just gained Mortal Enemy. Of course I hid my charms from Wyld Hunters who theorised that I'm some close combat monster, and predictibly attacked me from behind when Raksha threat was chased away, ... and it wa first brush with death my character had ! Suprise EarthSmash Combo left my dragon in agony ... dragon-bloods sure that I perished went hurriedly after other players. In several minutes my dragon regenerated himself, it took better part of the day to dig himself up from the earth.^^

Wyld hunters run afoul on the Sorceress who ... dispelled their magic and subsequently enslaved them. ST regretted allowing this player to make Sorcery Soul-Link and Essence Fountain spells. Anyway later we went into the underworld, pursuing some ... relative of the Sorceress who was stranded there at the mercy of Nephwrack and his ugly artifact. It came to no suprise that again, I the party's fighter proven to be only able to do something in Ebon Dragon style ... sneakily and stacking odds to myself. We rescued imprisoned 2circle demon who did horrible stuff to the Nephwrack. Nephwrack managed to open the way into the Labirynth and ST said that massive ghost extermination lured soul devouring behemoth. Sorceress spit out, as an panick attack, Wyld Zone spell at it ... and ST bothed all rolls to resist mutation. In effect tentacly monster as big as mountain mutated to the size of the cat, and was put into the cage. ST mentioned that Sidereals are sure to intervene in our Sessions because otherwise serious theme he wanted to enact wouldn't transform so flawlessly into comedy, so often.

Later, when digging trough another site we found half of very veird Solar buried in an meteorite-impact-like site. It was alive and obviously some sort of Magitech body-enchancement nut-Twilight. ST used him as guy we sell our spoils to, and as quest giver. I theorised that this guy was a construct thinking it is a Solar, with infused Alchemical-like artifacts mimicking Solar charms. As long as we remained Anvilfury's only link to the ("Idiots disturbing my grand experiments !") and were able to identify artifacts and ask for training in interesting crafts it was all cool. Sorceress was the one doing the talking as the most charismatic among us. She also got tutoring in Craft(Genesis) and Chibi was deceived into believing that "His Solarness" wanted her to reconfigure Sorceress's Manse into Genesis Laboratory.

Later from some random book my dragon's Maidens were reading for him he found out about Dragon Kings and this caused him to have Deja Vu. He decided to go to Ratchet and see what's in it. He also taxed Chibi and her Mountain Folk for the promise of helping her get to Yu-Shan to investigate Mountain Folk Curse. Gaining suprising wealth from that my dragon adopted barbarian tribe ... I mean their hunters attacked him, mistaking him for Tyrant Lizard, and later when he hunted them down shaman offered all womenfolk to appease angry "god". I did took the women, scattered the tribe's menfolk to the four winds and returned to my city. Here, my Guild contacts brought me horses and I gave them to the tribes-women after appointing smartest among them as new chief and ordered them all to learn warcraft ... in short, army training charms are gold and several months went with me training people to defend my city and Mountain Folk raising Iron Walls around the city. In Your eye, Raksha !

After that, and going broke with purchases and financing plant-genesis of some cacti that are edible and gather water while growing on sand ... my party gathered with me again to go to Ratchet. We stopped by the port-town with my "friendly" dragon-blood where I dictated an elaborate letter to the Scarlet Empress. Scribes were growing quickly ill after reading my ramblings, and even DB Prince of the city had somewhat troubled expression. I paid in jade to have the letter delivered ... and went on to Ratchet in Chibi's mole-mobile. During our trip we encountered broken flying ship and some demons repairing it when some weird Exalts were fighting off the horde of barbarians/fae and spirits trying to slaughter them.

Long story short. PC's managed to ambush and defeat the Infernals(who didn't exist yet) and demons were easily bullied. Sorceress, again, Soul-Linked the Exalts and Chibi snorted upon hearing that fly-ship will take at least month to repair and handwaved damage away in hours. We learned from the Infernals that they are from the 10 years in the future. That Ebon Dragon have copy of Imperial Palace in his domain. That Scarlet Empress dissapears in fev years !!!

My dragon imediately declared War on ED with a fiery speech. ST asked, in most suprised tone, why ? "Helen of Troy, Jacob. Need more hints ? Look at Red Fury's Motivation(Get ALL he wants, in more elaborate fashion) and Intimacies(Women and Treasures[Greed] among others)." ST's face -> :smalleek:
:smallamused:

Then we helped local forest goddess to build Wood manse, promised to return and help again, and finally arrived at Ratchet. After we began exploring, my dragon busy with Artifact Blue Songbird (lets user use Infallible Messenger) to dictate dogma to my Maidens back home while we all asserted damage done to the city and all this stuff. Chibi looked around, said that it'll take months, but is manageable ... meanwhile Sorceress and my dragon were exploring. We found Ratchet's Observatory and Chibi read from the essence patterns to what it served ("To predict future ? Neat !!!") ST said how only the Starmetal dome was left by plunderers and my dragon started voicing negative opinions about the Unconquered Sun for abadoning Dragon Kings. :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately game ended when we started repairing the city, my coffers weeping tears of blood, Sorceress's thralls returned with some more demons to work harder under the guidance of Mountain Folk taskmasters ... and my dragon began planning on how to get Scarlet Empress before ED, for himself.

Anyhow, I believe that true heroism is achieved when we manage to overcome impossible odds. For example foes capable of dealing 20+ lethal into our noses after Soak. My dragon invested in heaviest purchasable armor after taking hit that costed 21 lhlvls, after soak/rolls. Fortunately my mutations and investment in Ox-Body to get as much health levels as possible paid off.:smallcool:

[Kyeudo]

Hello there ! I like a lot Exalted theme, and the whole dangerous setting. I would strongly disagree with people wanting to decrease deadliness of the basic combat mechanics. Why ? Because saying that solving problems in Exalted is doable only by punching problems in the face is a D&D approach to stuff. :smallbiggrin:


I don't think you understand what we are trying to do by reducing the "deadliness" of combat. We want to be able to have a big ol' brawl where both combatants paint the floor red with each other's blood, execute the incredible supernatural manuvers for which the Exalted are known, and decide the contest on the merit of skill instead of having combat devolve into *description of two-die stunt* "SSE, LOL" and seeing who has the largest Essence Pool.

[Rikandur Azebol]

In short, I believe what You want to achieve is to mechanically enforce people to not Nova stuff. Right ?

IMO, it's more attitiude flaw than mechanical stuff. My experience with Charms meddling in combat, in Exalted, is slightly limited. My latest, and first Solar ever, character the beforementioned Dragon was having only Archery boosters from the "who have bigger can of Essence" tree. I resolved all of it trough two silly comboses I created, using charms that improve their performance with my character's development to avoid wasting XP.

To resolve defense problems I wore biggest/harderst perfect quality armor I could afford (and I could afford anything buyable, given time) even if it made me feel bad for mimicking Deathwing from Warcraft.
Also I was using the Essence Gathering Temper and it's branches, including custom charm I devised for EGT to make it innate ability. :smallcool:

With Regeneration charm from Dreams of the First Age, and small Cult of 3 I was capable of regain Essence/Willpower at phenomenal rate as well as being hard to nail while flying above everyone's head and raining at them with fire.

Sorry ... I again sidetracked.

Thus, if Nova-ing is the problem here ... then it is not the problem with mechanics (wich I were simply preffered using handvawium at, my ST preffered D&D rounds to ticks and I agree it overcomplicates stuff for those not being math-geeks or living calculuses) but problem with people abusing mechanics to their "min/maxing" and then complain about being weak in this or in that.

My suspicion is, that majority of this complaint is generated by such silly-fu used: Player pumps up his Attack Charms so much that he can slay mortal-equivalent with a sneeze, while forgetting all about toughtening his character up to whistand such punishments himself.

Example ? (I totally ignore perfect attacks, and other Autokill nonsenses as well as perfect defenses wich work not against simple Flurry)

Dieadder charms, fordamage it doesn't causes levels of damage but adds dice. Wich translates into ~30% of damage more when compared to damage die added.

Soak-adding charms, more often than not, add soak levels not die rolled. Wich translates into roughly thrice the bonus from damage adders. IMO, it's hot. And allows for flavourfull scenes like PC absorbing enemy's strong slash with the palm of his hand and then raising the eyebrow with a question.
"That's all You got there ?"

Thus, if I assumed wrong, please correct me.

[Toptomcat]

The problem is not so much offensive nova combos as grand artifact weapons, which can paste all but the most soak-focused in a single hit.

[Rikandur Azebol]

That's why I alvays clapped ST's saying that artifact weapons gain cool powers, not +dmg. :smallwink:

[Xefas]

So, regarding Ink Monkeys vol 45: Does this mean an Infernal with Essence 4 and Miracle Gift Mastery can, in a single scene, for the cost of 10m 1wp + 1 mote per dot granted, give a mortal 5 dots in every Attribute and every Ability, and three dots of specialties in every ability?

I know they're still a mortal, and thus still worthless, but the idea of being able to turn somebody from Joey Joejoe Farmer into The Pinnacle of Human Achievement in the span of an evening is awesome.

[Kyeudo]

The problem in Exalted Combat is NOT attack novas. It is a combination of the sheer power of ordinary attacks (aforementioned Grand Daiklave is a canon artifact weapon capable of making most characters into two half-characters with any decent hit) with the existance of perfect defenses. As it stands, any combat between two competent, combat-focused characters is as follows: Stunt attack roll, defender activates perfect defense while stunting, attacker becomes defender and vice-versa. First character unable to activate a perfect defense dies horribly.

Now, to change this, perfect defenses have to become less necessary to survival among pairs of evenly-skilled combatants and also less optimal means of defense. If taking a hit is not instant death, allowing for taking a hit in combat becomes an option. If usings a less-than-perfect defense is better for you in the long run than a perfect defense, using the perfect becomes less inviting.

[The Rose Dragon]

Raksha errata!

*licks*

[Mattarias, King.]

Hm, arright, thanks. My motivation boils down basically to "Ascend to power", "Make my mark on Creation" and "Protect the weak". These kinda go hand in hand, guess..? I dunno if they're exactly "epic" enough for Exalted, but I'm not an exalt, so I figure I shouldn't have anything too huge yet.

I do kinda like the meditation thing though. :smallbiggrin: Especially the Garda Bird crater one. The kingdom I'm destined to rule IS beyond the pole of Fire... Can't go there yet though. With dreams to be a King, first, one should be a man...

There IS gonna be an underwater dungeon coming up that I won't be able to join in on (Water Vulnerability 4...), so that'll give me a good amount of time to deal with that, probably. 24 more XP to go!

[SurlySeraph]

Is the whole "perfect defense + flurrybreaker + whatever combo every turn, battles hinge entirely upon who runs out of motes or willpower first" paradigm common in actual play?

And if so, are there other strategies that can work? Sufficiently high DVs or soak to force your opponents to use Charms that ignore soak or are unblockable/ undodgeable (and saving perfect defenses for when your opponent declares those attacks) sounds like a workable alternative to only using perfect defenses to me, but I'm very new to Exalted.

[Kyeudo]

Is the whole "perfect defense + flurrybreaker + whatever combo every turn, battles hinge entirely upon who runs out of motes or willpower first" paradigm common in actual play?


At least in my games so far, I've watched the rules force my players actions to conform to that very paradigm, even though we are playing in PbP where they can see the results of a roll before they activate their perfect defense.



And if so, are there other strategies that can work? Sufficiently high DVs or soak to force your opponents to use Charms that ignore soak or are unblockable/ undodgeable (and saving perfect defenses for when your opponent declares those attacks) sounds like a workable alternative to only using perfect defenses to me, but I'm very new to Exalted.

If your DVs are significantly higher than one-half your opponent's attack dice pool, this is not a clash of equals or near-equals. You are about to curb-stomp the poor sap into bloody paste. The outcome is guaranteed by his general inability to force you to expend motes in your own defense. This is why Extras of all stripes and mortals in general die so easily.

Soak, on the other hand, has other problems. Piercing is a very common tag and makes most armor into a paltry shell of its former self. Further, ping damage of (Essence) means you probably will still take at least one level of damage from each successful attack, even if it can't get through your soak, which causes you wound penalties and makes you less capable of attacking or defending yourself.

Currently, only a few types of Exalts can pull Soak off as a viable method of defense. Lunars can acquire such insane levels of soak that everything is reduced to ping damage and then they use Halting the Scarlet Flow as a gift Charm to recover. Alchemicals can find Charm sources of high soak, health level regeneration, and innate soak boosters and get cheap access to artifact armor. Finally, Infernals who favor Malfeas can double or triple their health levels and ignore wound penalties with Agony Empowered and use Scar-Writ Saga Shield and Viridian Legend Exoskeleton to have very high soak values. Beware Malfeas's Lunar Akuma.

There is, of course, the case of Twilight/Daybreak/Defiler Exalts tanking damage using artifact armor and their anima power to negate ping. Loyalist Daybreaks do this the best, with access to Oblivion's Panoply through Celestial Battle Armor.

[Rhyvurg]

The problem, I think, is one of escalation. It is possible for players to build Primordial-killing combos easily and quickly, so ST's ramp up the danger of their enemies just in case, so the players then feel they must make these mega-combos. Perfect defenses are necessary because players are disinclined to forgo high-powered combos, they feel they must optimize to live.

[Kyeudo]

The problem, I think, is one of escalation. It is possible for players to build Primordial-killing combos easily and quickly, so ST's ramp up the danger of their enemies just in case, so the players then feel they must make these mega-combos. Perfect defenses are necessary because players are disinclined to forgo high-powered combos, they feel they must optimize to live.

Not really. Situations where my players went into perfect spam mode involved just some high dice pools and fairly damaging weapons. The blows landed by the enemies I was fielding were easily enough to take a Dragon-Blooded wearing jade lamellar armor down to his -4 health level with lethal damage, even though the most dangerous weapon in their arsenal was a daiklave.

[Kantolin]

From my, extremely low-optimization game that lasted a ~year, with people who had no idea how the mechanics worked (And started as a 1e game then transferred over as we re-learned mechanics)...

Well, at first perfects weren't terribly focal. We didn't build our characters very well at all, and simply raising your defense was the way to go. A couple people had perfects, which were good panic buttons, but hey.

As the game progressed, however, perfects became more and more central until eventually, it'd take a ridiculous amount of buffing to get your defense up to the point where you wouldn't want to perfect, and even then it's not guaranteed (Due to the increased potency of the enemies). Perfects became much more the game, even though some shenanigans started occuring to try to make them less prevalent.

Now that we've played that game and know a bit more about how exalted works, though, um... it's looking rougher to try to get your defenses up high enough that you're secure enough. I like playing defense, so I'm usually the only one who'd end up really focusing there (I was the ST of the year-game, heh, so not there).

Also throw sucks? Throw sucks. If throw doesn't suck, then I don't know how to not make it suck.

[Xefas]

So reading through the new-and-improved Scroll of Errata, I seem to have come upon an entirely new charm that is quite interesting: Design Beyond Limit. It's Craft 5, Essence 4, and is Permanent (thus costing nothing to use).

Its first effect allows you to cap a demesne with a manse 1 dot higher than the demesne, which, while cool, isn't the crazy part.

Its second effect allows you to craft an artifact as if it were one dot lower for the purposes of the number of successes you need to accrue (it had no effect on 1-dot artifacts).

If I'm not mistaken, this allows a single purchase of an Essence 4 charm to grant (effectively) between 20 and 150 automatic successes while crafting an artifact - at absolutely no cost to you.

Am I just crazy? Or does this look funny to anyone else?

(And, on a tangential sidenote - where the hell is my Infernal analogue? What, the Yozi crafted the universe from insubstantial chaos, and their Emperor has a subsidiary soul that is, itself, second only to Autochthon in his awesome craftitude, and yet my Defiler gets a maximum of two crafting charms? One of which is so much worse than its Solar counterpart it's laughable? Grrrrrr raaaaaaaaage *throttle babies*)

[Yuki Akuma]

This is why you take Heretical charms and build your own charm tree.

[Xefas]

This is why you take Heretical charms and build your own charm tree.

Yeah, but that takes Essence 5 (6ish). This charm is Essence 4. I demand justice!

Also, I'm sure there exists, somewhere, in the back of someone's mind, a hypothetical "loyalist" Infernal, who refuses to dabble in such heretical material.
...heh, no, not really. But I probably had you going there for a second!

[Kyeudo]

Also throw sucks? Throw sucks. If throw doesn't suck, then I don't know how to not make it suck.

Well, the main problems with Thrown is its reliance on fresh ammunition and requires lots of actions spent drawing weapons. With one of the returning Thrown weapons from Scroll of the Monk or the artifact boomerang from the Core book (I forget the name) and Returning Weapon Concentration or by using an Infinite Jade Chakram you can negate the ammunition dependancy and action investment. For anyone not a Solar or wanting to use mundane weapons, you need to take the four point Quick Draw merit from Scroll of Heroes to get rid of the dependancy on drawing new weapons and then a fairly high Resources score to supply a fair number of thrown weapons.

Of course, you'll be stuck with Dodge as your main defense, since Thrown has no perfect parries, but perfect dodges are cheaper than perfect parries on average (Sidereals being the exception).

Thrown has my favorite Charm, Cascade of Cutting Terror. Undodgeable and doubles successes before applying to a DV. What's not to love?

[Reynard]

Well, the main problems with Thrown is its reliance on fresh ammunition and requires lots of actions spent drawing weapons. With one of the returning Thrown weapons from Scroll of the Monk or the artifact boomerang from the Core book (I forget the name) and Returning Weapon Concentration or by using an Infinite Jade Chakram you can negate the ammunition dependancy and action investment.

Every single Artifact thrown weapon that actually leaves your hands, bar the Essence Pulse Grenades, can return with a pitifully easy Dex+Thrown roll. Some just have it guaranteed, but honestly any Exalt using Thrown for combat will pass that roll with ease.

[golentan]

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Golentan|Yes|Yes|Alchemical|Dragonblood|Infernal|"Scenario Sandbox"[/table]

By scenario sandbox, I mean that the default assumptions and starting point of the campaign are fixed but when the word go hits everyone has as much free reign as they want.

Speaking of which, I was considering trying to put together a scenario sandbox tentatively titled Code Exalt: Chejop of the Rebellion. Basically political unrest and warstrider action on the blessed isle in the leadup to the usurpation; canon flexible. Both sides playable, with wacky antics during downtime as people try to uncover each other's double lives. Would anyone be interested in doing battle either on behalf of the noble lawgivers or against the nefarious dictators in such a scenario?

[Kyeudo]

Every single Artifact thrown weapon that actually leaves your hands, bar the Essence Pulse Grenades, can return with a pitifully easy Dex+Thrown roll. Some just have it guaranteed, but honestly any Exalt using Thrown for combat will pass that roll with ease.

Returning Weapon Concentration is just nice for causing you to automatically succeed on the required roll for no Essence cost. Everyone else always has the possibility of a botch. Still, Thrown using mundane weapons has the problem of drawing more weapons to throw continuously.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Speaking of which, I was considering trying to put together a scenario sandbox tentatively titled Code Exalt: Chejop of the Rebellion. Basically political unrest and warstrider action on the blessed isle in the leadup to the usurpation; canon flexible. Both sides playable, with wacky antics during downtime as people try to uncover each other's double lives. Would anyone be interested in doing battle either on behalf of the noble lawgivers or against the nefarious dictators in such a scenario?

Interesting, count me among the pitifully mewling kittens then.:smallwink:

Also, in my experience Players never-ever follow "scenario" and alvays go into direction You didn't expected them to take. You can expect me to meddle with "cannon" as much as possible, too. I think that I'll need a bit more rulings before deciding between Mortal Prodigy and Tyrant Lizard Lunar.

[golentan]

Interesting, count me among the pitifully mewling kittens then.:smallwink:

Also, in my experience Players never-ever follow "scenario" and alvays go into direction You didn't expected them to take. You can expect me to meddle with "cannon" as much as possible, too. I think that I'll need a bit more rulings before deciding between Mortal Prodigy and Tyrant Lizard Lunar.

Well, the point of the scenario *sandbox* is that we *start* with a scenario and a common theme and then have a *sandbox* game.

And if the name and description weren't a dead giveaway, I'm envisioning it as "heavily inspired by" code geass in this case.
Basically, one of the rebel factions leading up to the usurpation takes matters into their own hands before anyone else's plans are set in motion. Players would pick a side, or not, and then have to survive and deal with the resulting insurrection. The opening scrawl I've got reads:

The news as read by IAM: In a stunning turn of events, a routine police action in the western isle met with tragedy today. While reports are as yet unclear, terrorists struck at the defenders of peace in pursuit of their lawful duty, turning the mortal quarter of Serpent's Tooth into a deadly battlefield. The military reports heavy casualties, including the death of the governor of the dominion. In addition, rumors that the terrorists were able to seize control of valuable military equipment are as yet uncorroborated. A day of mourning has been declared for the 16th. In other news...

I figure there would be slots for any and all character types available in that era. Though like I said I'm just checking potential interest for now.

[Rainmar]

Sounds interesting, especially the part about warstrider action. Even thou I have never used one or ST'ed any game with it.

Code Exalted, eh? I call in...Mountin Folk Arisian Girl(big eyes included). :)

[Sanguine]

I am interested in Code Exalted. My character would be on the Solar side, and yes his Royal Warstrider will be named Lancelot.

[Tavar]

Interested as well. First real game of Exalted I ever played was going to be something like that, but more gundam based.

[Rhyvurg]

I'd join as a loyalist Terrestrial.

[Toptomcat]

I'd definitely be interested, and I have a character concept that would be a great deal of fun. I'm not sure how much of it I want the other PCs to know about, though- if things progress to the point of a recruiting thread I'll PM you about it.

[The Rose Dragon]

Except for the warstrider part, I would be interested in playing.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Okay, apologies Golentan ... didn't wanted to sound as uncle-good-advice.:smallredface:

Saying so, I already have ready character concept for Enlightened Mortal;
What kind of Warstrided would You allow for me then ? :smallbiggrin:

Saying so, I will reserve myself to a more complicated side than just Loyalist or Rebel. :smallwink:

Shall I PM backstory to You, and Warstrider trivia ?

[golentan]

Cool. So there would be a sizable chunk of interest.

I'll put together a recruitment thread over the next day or two as I ponder how I'm going to do this. Details'll go there.

[Ganurath]

Except for the warstrider part, I would be interested in playing.Not a fan of Code Geass, or just unfamiliar with the series that inspired the game concept?

[Kylarra]

Not a fan of Code Geass, or just unfamiliar with the series that inspired the game concept?I think TRD just isn't a fan of warstriders.

[The Rose Dragon]

I think TRD just isn't a fan of warstriders.

Pretty much.

Hellstriders and bonestriders are cool, though.

[Kyeudo]

Pretty much.

Hellstriders and bonestriders are cool, though.

Warstriders as written suck, while Hellstriders are made of win and Bonestriders are very cost effective.

Maybe you should take a look at my warstrider revision (http://www.mediafire.com/?p17g342wgh8qnq9), see if that changes your mind.

[golentan]

Warstriders as written suck, while Hellstriders are made of win and Bonestriders are very cost effective.

Maybe you should take a look at my warstrider revision (http://www.mediafire.com/?p17g342wgh8qnq9), see if that changes your mind.

Umm... You mind if I use that?

[a_humble_lich]

Maybe you should take a look at my warstrider revision (http://www.mediafire.com/?p17g342wgh8qnq9), see if that changes your mind.

I like that if only for stating exactly what magical material bonuses warstriders get, and not saying moonsilver warstriders have no Mobility penalty.

[Kyeudo]

Umm... You mind if I use that?

Go ahead. I've got it posted in the homebrew section over on the Keychain of Creation forums.


I like that if only for stating exactly what magical material bonuses warstriders get, and not saying moonsilver warstriders have no Mobility penalty.

Well, it made more sense than having Jade and Moonsilver being the end-all-be-all of warstrider design.

[golentan]

Recruitment thread up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9771101#post9771101)

[horngeek]

So reading through the new-and-improved Scroll of Errata, I seem to have come upon an entirely new charm that is quite interesting: Design Beyond Limit. It's Craft 5, Essence 4, and is Permanent (thus costing nothing to use).

Its first effect allows you to cap a demesne with a manse 1 dot higher than the demesne, which, while cool, isn't the crazy part.

Its second effect allows you to craft an artifact as if it were one dot lower for the purposes of the number of successes you need to accrue (it had no effect on 1-dot artifacts).

If I'm not mistaken, this allows a single purchase of an Essence 4 charm to grant (effectively) between 20 and 150 automatic successes while crafting an artifact - at absolutely no cost to you.

Am I just crazy? Or does this look funny to anyone else?

(And, on a tangential sidenote - where the hell is my Infernal analogue? What, the Yozi crafted the universe from insubstantial chaos, and their Emperor has a subsidiary soul that is, itself, second only to Autochthon in his awesome craftitude, and yet my Defiler gets a maximum of two crafting charms? One of which is so much worse than its Solar counterpart it's laughable? Grrrrrr raaaaaaaaage *throttle babies*)

Yep. And I luvs it. I'm taking DBL as soon as I can for my Twilight Craftswoman. :smallbiggrin:

Incidentally, with all the First Age games, I find myself wanting to play a Second Age game. Huh.

Partially because I want to make a character based off Holo from Spice and Wolf. :smalltongue:

[golentan]

So, I saw these and thought they were hilarious. So I'm sharing.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/GryffonDurime/Titaniform1final.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f102/GryffonDurime/Titaniform.jpg

It also got me thinking about alternate character interpretations for the yozis. For example, my friend is convinced that she who lives in her name is a moe computer geek (with additional evidence added by broken winged crane), whose lashouts are mostly because she is shy and uncomfortable around other people. Malfeas is the handsome jock who's unwilling to admit his sensitive side and love of musical theater and dance. Adorjan is a tsundere with commitment issues, but who honestly always tries to help people.

I'm not sure I can ever look at the yozis in the same way anymore. Every time I try to view them as dangerous beings of colossal power and malevolence I get the mental image of some misunderstood kid, and get a colossal urge to hug them and tell them everything will be alright. Except for the ebon dragon. He's just a jerk.

[horngeek]

*gets BWC*

...holy... I actually WANT to play an Infernal Game where all of the characters go down a Heretical path. My one would probably have honor as part of his Excellency, somehow.

[Urpriest]

A lack of Exalted books will keep me from participating, but I have to suggest that someone plays CC as an early Infernal. Not having seen the second season I have no idea how accurate this might be.

[horngeek]

Of course, the other problem is that I have no confidence in my homebrewing, and going down the Heretical Charm trees means you have to do a lot of homebrewing.

[Tavar]

More of a fluff question, but here goes; why can no one say Queen Merela's name?

[Urpriest]

More of a fluff question, but here goes; why can no one say Queen Merela's name?

Let me ask you a related question: why can nobody say CandleJack's na

[Thelas]

More of a fluff question, but here goes; why can no one say Queen M-r-l-'s name?
Please correct your post, I don't want an angry Queen M-r-l- here.

[horngeek]

Not sure, I've never actually seen in mentioned in any of the books. Can someone point me to where it's mentioned, if it is?

[The_Snark]

I'd always assumed it was just an Internet meme; Dreams of the First Age doesn't say anything about it. I'm curious to know the source either way, though.


Every time I try to view them as dangerous beings of colossal power and malevolence I get the mental image of some misunderstood kid, and get a colossal urge to hug them and tell them everything will be alright. Except for the ebon dragon. He's just a jerk.

The Ebon Dragon is the shallow, bitchy cheerleader in a stereotypical high school movie. Pointlessly antagonistic, and as far as you can tell her sole purpose in life is to put other people down (especially the story's protagonist). Fawning over her helps—if you refuse to be a sycophant, she will devote her life to making yours miserable—but doesn't make you exempt. Nobody actually likes her, but somehow she sits at the top of the social ladder anyway, smirking at the people who complain about it.

Not that this makes her... er, him... any more likable, but it's pretty easy to transpose him into the same context as the rest of those interpretations.

[horngeek]

Incidentally, I find myself wanting to play a nation-building game. :smallconfused:

Or just something... Second Age, close to standard. No really special concepts, just... Exalted.

[Lord Raziere]

Wow my idea to make an Abyssal character based on the concept of Lelouch Lamperouge ending up in Creation must've leaked out my mind and infected the previous page people with code geass.....

but darn :smallfrown: an Abyssal Lelouch vs. a Solar Suzaku would've been great modern Exalted concepts.

[horngeek]

Actually, I'd call Lelouch a High-Conviction Eclipse, not an Abyssal.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually, I'd call Lelouch a High-Conviction Eclipse, not an Abyssal.

eh, fits, and Suzaku could be a Terrestrial, fits better.

[SurlySeraph]

The Ebon Dragon is the shallow, bitchy cheerleader in a stereotypical high school movie.

There has to be a charm somewhere that lets you forge pom-poms out of treason.

[Gensh]

Ha! I'm actually running something like this right now. The players think I'm just running a Romance of the Three Kingdoms game using dragonblooded stats, but they'll soon notice that some characters are a bit...different than they usually are portrayed. Or not. They actually tried to kill Lu Bu, not realizing it was supposed to be a social encounter, and no one even commented on his armor being solid orange. :smallconfused:

Here's my current list of characters for those interested:
Wei
Cao Cao - Lelouch - Fire, but with Hypnotic Tongue Technique
Cao Pi - Rolo - Fire
Zhen Ji - Shirley - Water
Xiahou Dun - Jeremiah - Fire
Xiahou Yuan - Ougi - Water
Dian Wei - Kallen - Fire
Xu Zhu - Sayoko - Water
Xu Huang - Xingke - Fire
Cao Ren - Tamaki - Fire
Sima Yi - Rakshad - Air
Zuo Ci - C.C. - Air

Shu
Liu Bei - Suzaku - Fire
Zhang Fei - Gino - Fire
Guan Yu - Anya - Earth
Zhao Yun - Toudou - Fire
Zhuge Liang - Lloyd - Air
Pang Tong - Cecile - Air
Lu Bu - Orange-boy in Siegfried - Fire
Zhang Liao - Viletta - Water (Zhang Liao changes to Wei after Lu Bu's death)
Yuan Shao - Charles - Earth
Yuan Shu - V.V. - Air

Wu
Sun Jian - Clovis - Water
Sun Ce - Schneizel - Water
Zhou Yu - Nina - Air
Zhou Tai - Guilford - Fire
Taishi Ci - Mao - Air
Sun Quan - Cornelia - Fire
Sun Shangxiang - Euphemia - Earth

[golentan]

The Ebon Dragon is the shallow, bitchy cheerleader in a stereotypical high school movie. Pointlessly antagonistic, and as far as you can tell her sole purpose in life is to put other people down (especially the story's protagonist). Fawning over her helps—if you refuse to be a sycophant, she will devote her life to making yours miserable—but doesn't make you exempt. Nobody actually likes her, but somehow she sits at the top of the social ladder anyway, smirking at the people who complain about it.

Not that this makes her... er, him... any more likable, but it's pretty easy to transpose him into the same context as the rest of those interpretations.

I'm not saying it doesn't fit. Just saying he's the only one whose infantilization interpretation doesn't make me want to hug him instead of smack him upside the head.

[horngeek]

...darn it.

Basically, here's something: would anyone be interested in STing a game?

Not, however, focused on the Celestial Exalted. There are a lot of Celestial and Solar-level games going on already.

What I'd really like to do is a Terrestrial Exalted game. Possibly focusing on a Lookshyan Sworn Brotherhood.

[horngeek]

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1 Exalt|#2 Exalt|#3 Exalt|Type of Game
horngeek|No|Yes|Solar|Dragon-Blooded|Lunar|Nation-Building, sandbox[/table]

[Britter]

Horngeek, my love for the DB's can not be overstated. Alas, I am no storyteller. But, if you need another player, consider my interest expressed.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'd be interested in a DB game - alas, I cannot ST to save my life.

[Sanguine]

Pretty much the same as the two above me but not STing for a different reason.

[Drascin]

Horngeek, my love for the DB's can not be overstated. Alas, I am no storyteller. But, if you need another player, consider my interest expressed.

Same as this guy - Dragonblooded are only behind Alchemicals in my love of them, but, I don't think I should be STing with my lack of knowledge about the game.

[Britter]

It's good to know I am not alone in my love of the Dragon-Blooded. I find them very compelling and interesting.

[Rhyvurg]

I LOVE Dragonbloods, because I love playing the underdog. Also, their lack of real perfect defenses makes the game more risky.

[Britter]

Mechanically, I like their level of relative power, the team-focused charms, and the ability to use some charms reflexively. Flavor wise, they are just so darn flawed and stubborn, you almost have to love them. They are totally out of their depth in many ways, and yet they just won't quit. Mind you, the majority do seem to be toolboxes.

[Kylarra]

Dragonblooded make better intro-to-exalted heroes than Solars in my opinion. Since they can do reflexives without a combo, it leads to more charm use in combat which is always fun. Although the new combo rules make combos a lot more palatable than before.

[Britter]

I agree, though I can't speak to the ease of charm use issue, being a relatively new player of the game.

I also think that the power-level is more comphrensible. Solars are really powerful things, and you need to seriously rework your brain to get around the idea of exactly how much they can do. DBs are definitely no slouches, but the scale is more comphrensible. And like you said, once the player is used to that level, it is easier to upgrade to Solars and co, since you have a grounding in the setting's definition of power.

[Kylarra]

Well normally you limit your charm use because you want to be free to have your DV boosting charm (or your perfect) available for you to defend with. Since DBs can use reflexives on any tick without a combo, it lets you use those simple/extra action/supplementary/whatever charms to attack with, aka doing something flashy, and still be able to use your excellency/defense charm/pseudo-perfect to defend yourself, without locking yourself into a certain combination of charms only.

[tonberrian]

The cutest Swilihn ever:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/Primus/Swlihn.gif

Not mine, I just saw it on the White Wolf forums.

[Drascin]

Mechanically, I like their level of relative power, the team-focused charms, and the ability to use some charms reflexively. Flavor wise, they are just so darn flawed and stubborn, you almost have to love them.

Not half as much as Solars on the flawed front, though :smalltongue:.

Mostly, I just like their themathics, their "underdog" position, the whole elemental thing (elemental associations > just shiny)...

[Tavar]

Dragonblooded make better intro-to-exalted heroes than Solars in my opinion. Since they can do reflexives without a combo, it leads to more charm use in combat which is always fun. Although the new combo rules make combos a lot more palatable than before.

New Combo Rules?

[Rhyvurg]

Also, elemental lenses are just awesome.

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, elemental lenses are just awesome.

I'd more say unsalvageably broken, but sure, let's go with that.

[Kylarra]

New Combo Rules?Per the new errata you can now add charms to a combo for the normal cost of adding a charm to a combo+1xp. So you don't have to repurchase your entire combo after you get awesometastic-supplementary-charm-B.

[Rhyvurg]

I'll have to disagree. "Breaking" a terrestrial is like breaking a 3.5 Fighter. Almost no matter what you do, when someone complains you can hold the fighter (terrestrial) up to the thing that sets the bar or power in the game, namely wizards, clerics and druids (Solars) and ask if it really seems all that broken. Remember, Solars have no elemental powers, it's a terrestrial only artifact. Does the power boost from the lens really offset the lack of true perfect defenses?

[Rainmar]

Got a question, any of you might know other sources of information on Mountain Folk then Scroll of Fallen Races from 2E and materials on them from 1E? I'm looking for anything, might be custom charms, homebrewed rules, new patterns, additional fluff or so.

[Rhyvurg]

There's a liiiiitle bit in Lands of Creation, but it's just history fluff.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallconfused: What's broken about the Elemental Lens? It's just a damage doubler.

..Speaking of which, just to make sure, does it work with Affinity (element) Control?

[The Rose Dragon]

:smallconfused: What's broken about the Elemental Lens? It's just a damage doubler.

On its own, it's not problematic. The problem is that it stacks with every other damage multiplier. There are hundreds of those.

And worse, there is an Abyssal version.

[Kylarra]

On its own, it's not problematic. The problem is that it stacks with every other damage multiplier. There are hundreds of those.

And worse, there is an Abyssal version.and potentially solar/alchemical versions.

[Mattarias, King.]

On its own, it's not problematic. The problem is that it stacks with every other damage multiplier. There are hundreds of those.

And worse, there is an Abyssal version.

:smalleek: Oh. OH. Okay then. I can see the problem there, yeah...

Geez, I don't think I can imagine how many dice you can get up to as an abyssal (or any celestial) with that... I think we're talking literally BUCKETS.. :smalleek:

[Drascin]

and potentially solar/alchemical versions.

Though those are about as canon as Arcane Swordsages - that is, a little sidebar suggestion and nothing more :smalltongue:.

I didn't know there was an actual Abyssal version, though.

[Kylarra]

Though those are about as canon as Arcane Swordsages - that is, a little sidebar suggestion and nothing more :smalltongue:.

I didn't know there was an actual Abyssal version, though.Or the adaptation section of various campaign/god-specific prCs, or the oft toted unarmed swordsage. In for a penny, in for a pound.

[Rhyvurg]

But what does it matter? If they enemy can PD, the damage is meaningless. If he can't, you don't need upteen damage multipliers to kill him, so why do the stacking damage multipliers matter?

[The Rose Dragon]

But what does it matter? If they enemy can PD, the damage is meaningless. If he can't, you don't need upteen damage multipliers to kill him, so why do the stacking damage multipliers matter?

Just because an effect is Shaping, and thus won't affect anyone with Integrity-Protecting Prana in optimized play, doesn't mean its other effects are not borked as hell. Especially since most non-Exalts as well as many Exalts lack both efficient shaping defenses and perfect dodges.

[The_Snark]

But what does it matter? If they enemy can PD, the damage is meaningless. If he can't, you don't need upteen damage multipliers to kill him, so why do the stacking damage multipliers matter?

Because inexpensive high-damage attacks force the other person to use perfect defenses and turn combat into a game of perfect-or-die, which many people dislike. The elemental lens is no worse than the grand goremaul here, or any of the other damage multipliers, but it contributes to the problem.

[The Rose Dragon]

Because inexpensive high-damage attacks force the other person to use perfect defenses and turn combat into a game of perfect-or-die, which many people dislike. The elemental lens is no worse than the grand goremaul here, or any of the other damage multipliers, but it contributes to the problem.

And frankly, effects that increase the insta-lethality are toxic to the game's fun. Even if you don't go the paranoia combo route (which is pretty easy to mitigate by decreasing 2-die stunts), this doesn't make the combat any less boring, because you then need to work hard to make sure people don't die left and right every tick.

[Rainmar]

There's a liiiiitle bit in Lands of Creation, but it's just history fluff.

Thanks, must have overlooked it when I first read this bit. *reads* Yea, already known history...pff, I just hope that someday they will stop producing 'yet another solar supplement' and do something which has not yet seen the day light...for example "Compass of Terrestial Directions - Underworld". Oh man, that would be cool...*scrathes his head*...damn, meyby it's time for homebrew?

[Reynard]

I'll have to disagree. "Breaking" a terrestrial is like breaking a 3.5 Fighter.

:smallconfused:

:smallamused:

Hahahaaahaaaha.

This so off I don't know where to begin. I'll leave it to Tacky, though. He can break DBs.

[DrakeRaids]

I'll have to disagree. "Breaking" a terrestrial is like breaking a 3.5 Fighter.

Breaking Terrestrials For Dummeys!

Step One: Take skinmount amulets. Two or three should be enough with your breeding, then use you're awesome Dyanst backgrounds to get hearthstones dirt cheap, and boast you're mote pool to that of a solar without blinking, allowing you to keep pace with them till about essence 6.

Step Two: Learn Celestial Martial Arts. Water Dragon, Fire Dragon (For the Style Benefit it gives Dragon Blooded), and Crystal Chameleon are all wonderful choices. Abuse their free reflexives and the fact that all dragon blooded get essence flow and supremacy of (ability) for free.

Step Three: Murder

[Tackyhillbillu]

Breaking a Terrestrial really isn't that hard. To begin with, a PD isn't that hard to pick up from CMAs. Second of all, DBs do have a PD. PCDM upgraded by Conflagaration of Warding is Perfect, Applicability trumping. Finally, Unassailable Body of Element Defense IS a Perfect, simply not applicability trumping.

Up until E5, I can match any Exalt type except a Solar Meleeist with a Dragonblooded. Post E5, DBs drop back.

Short Version: Celestial Martial Arts + Free Reflexives = Good times for all. And if I get Ebon Shadow, may the Incarnae have mercy on your soul, for I shall not.

[The Rose Dragon]

Breaking a Terrestrial really isn't that hard. To begin with, a PD isn't that hard to pick up from CMAs. Second of all, DBs do have a PD. PCDM upgraded by Conflagaration of Warding is Perfect, Applicability trumping. Finally, Unassailable Body of Element Defense IS a Perfect, simply not applicability trumping.

CMAs don't have Celestial level perfect defenses, for starters. At least, balanced ones don't. The two examples I can remember, Bottomless Depths Defense and Crossed Wings Denial, are both terribly flawed perfects. Bottomless Depths Defense is both a perfect soak, so it doesn't stop non-damage attacks, and costs one aggravated damage level. Crossed Wings Denial halves your effectiveness if you don't have any native counterattacks, and gets quite expensive in prolonged combat (welcome to Celestial-level combat, by the way). Native "perfects" cost 1 willpower, and Portentous Comet Deflecting Mode doesn't work against ranged attacks and needs other Terrestrials who also know the Charm to block unblockable attacks (and Terrestrials are supposed to compete with single Celestials when in groups), while Unassailable Body doesn't let you dodge perfect attacks (again, welcome to Celestial-level combat).

So, Terrestrial defenses can be bolstered to a degree where they are not instantly splattered. That does not break them, because that's where Celestials start the game, not work towards for a few sessions.

[Tackyhillbillu]

CMAs don't have Celestial level perfect defenses, for starters. At least, balanced ones don't.

I don't agree with this... so... there? CMAs are balenced toward Lunar Charms. Lunar's can have PDs, and thusly, so can CMAs?


While Unassailable Body doesn't let you dodge perfect attacks (again, welcome to Celestial-level combat).

Yes? Yes it does.

It doesn't allow you to beat APPLICABILITY-TRUMPING Attacks, which are seperate. A Perfect Attack like Accuracy Without Distance is still beaten by Unassailable Body.


So, Terrestrial defenses can be bolstered to a degree where they are not instantly splattered. That does not break them, because that's where Celestials start the game, not work towards for a few sessions.

It is harder for Terrestrials to beat Perfect Attacks. But not impossible. And Terrestrials have tricks of their own, that Solars cannot emulate, including not having to sink ever greater XP expenditures into combos for the basic necessity of staying alive.

At the end of day, the question was "can you break a Terrestrial?" And the answer is yes. The Paradigmatic Example is a Terrestrial using Distracting Finger Gesture (freely, as it is Reflexive) to delay your turn into perpetuity, and beating your JB roll, because hey! FREE REFLEXIVES!

[SurlySeraph]

I've found a trick that I'd like to check with people who know the rules better than I do.

A Sidereal with The Captain as one of his colleges can use the Iron Drill Exercise resplendency to give people 1 point in an ability per week of training, up to a maximum of his Conviction; this costs 1 Endurance per week.
The Humbling Enlightenment Commentary charm from Crane Style lets you spar with someone one-on-one for a minute and count it as a day of training time for Martial Arts, Martial Arts specialties, or Martial Arts Charms.
So a Sidereal with 5 Conviction who was willing to spend 5 Endurance from a Resplendent Destiny could take 35 minutes to train an extra from 0 to 5 in Martial Arts. Or a PC, if said PC had enough XP available.

Does this actually work? Because it bothered me that Sidereals don't have very good training charms despite all the emphasis on Sidereal sifus and suchlike, and being able to train anyone into a ninja master in 35 minutes would be awesome.

[ShadowFighter15]

I've been wondering lately how a computer game of Exalted would work. I only got as far as how to introduce the player to the setting, which was basically the same sort of thing that Dragon Age did. At least the up-shot of that is that you wouldn't have to be limited to just one type of exalt and one origin could branch off depending on the type and caste you chose in character creation.

ie: Dawn-caste Solars, Dusk-caste Abyssals and that warrior one for Infernals (name escapes me at the moment), could all have the same, just with different branches partway through. The Solar fights through, exalting mid-battle maybe and off he goes, the Abyssal fights and gets killed, is offered the power and exalts, while the Infernal surrenders and is offered the power while imprisoned and exalts then.

Just an idea though, no idea how well it'd work.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smalleek: Whooooo! Just got out of combat with a Slayer caste Infernal! MAN, was I almost slaughtered so hard. Thank yoouuu, First Melee Excellency.

I cut his arm off, pretty much. :smallamused:

Escaped like the last one, due to this weird black egg artifact thing, but yeah, he's not gonna bother us for a while.

And we found the plot! We're to take this hammer of a Key to the four Nails of Creation in order to reenergize them and stop chaos from overwhelming everything. We've got two years. :smallamused: Bring it on.

All-in-all, excellent Birthday game. :smallbiggrin:

[ShadowFighter15]

:smalleek: Whooooo! Just got out of combat with a Slayer caste Infernal! MAN, was I almost slaughtered so hard.

Lived up to the caste name then, huh? :smalltongue:

[Mattarias, King.]

Lived up to the caste name then, huh? :smalltongue:

Oh yeah. :smalleek: He was wielding a spike bigger than a fridge for a weapon. ST said I woulda taken at least twenty levels of damage each hit. POST SOAK. Reeeeaaaallyy glad I spent the seven points for that Excellency... And thanks to whoever suggested I get it back in my thread.

[horngeek]

Congradulations for surviving against a Solar-Tier, Dawn-Caste derived Exalted. :smallbiggrin:

[Mattarias, King.]

Congradulations for surviving against a Solar-Tier, Dawn-Caste derived Exalted. :smallbiggrin:

:smallamused: Thanks. My plan is to get to Godhood when I can, and then just wreck them back, so hard, to make up for all the times I was almost wrecked. Which I figure will be a lot.. The Yozi are gonna be all "We told you about the God-blood bro, we told you!"

And then I push them down the up escalator in a manse made entirely of escalators.

....:smallsigh: Okay, that's it, I'm going to bed. Today/yesterday was a long birthday...

[horngeek]

Me, I just want an oppitunity, at some point, to make a Gilgamesh-esque Solar Zenith Caste. :smallamused:

There are homebrew Charms which allow this build.

[ShadowFighter15]

Me, I just want an oppitunity, at some point, to make a Gilgamesh-esque Solar Zenith Caste. :smallamused:

There are homebrew Charms which allow this build.

Gilgamesh as in the guy from Fate/stay Night or some other guy based on that legend?

[horngeek]

Gilgamesh as in the guy from Fate/stay Night or some other guy based on that legend?

The former. Someone posted two Charms that let you pull that trick.

[Xefas]

And then I push them down the up escalator in a manse made entirely of escalators.

Such an epic manse. I bow to your mastery of manse design.

Also, checking for interest, if I hosted an Exalted game for decently powerful Infernals (and possibly other kinds of Exalts and supernatural folk) with the opportunity (but not compulsion) to use all those new shiny Heretical charms, but I hosted it on RPOL.net (http://rpol.net/) because I prefer the PbP-specific functionality it provides, would anyone be willing to take that few minutes to sign up for the site to join, or is that too high of a barrier for entry (which I would understand, as I also don't like to join sites I'm not familiar with and don't intend to use a whole lot)?

[Kylarra]

Such an epic manse. I bow to your mastery of manse design.

Also, checking for interest, if I hosted an Exalted game for decently powerful Infernals (and possibly other kinds of Exalts and supernatural folk) with the opportunity (but not compulsion) to use all those new shiny Heretical charms, but I hosted it on RPOL.net (http://rpol.net/) because I prefer the PbP-specific functionality it provides, would anyone be willing to take that few minutes to sign up for the site to join, or is that too high of a barrier for entry (which I would understand, as I also don't like to join sites I'm not familiar with and don't intend to use a whole lot)?I'd possibly be interested, but you'd honestly have to wait until next year to start (aka after holiday season).

[horngeek]

What about Mythweavers?

Really, 'meh' is my general reaction to joining new sites just for individual games.

[horngeek]

Incidentally, I've posted a thread looking for an ST and players for a nation-building/governing game (maybe not the only focus, but I'd like it to be a major one). Got some player interest, but no ST interest yet. Could anyone who's interested post here? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176382)

[golentan]

Such an epic manse. I bow to your mastery of manse design.

Also, checking for interest, if I hosted an Exalted game for decently powerful Infernals (and possibly other kinds of Exalts and supernatural folk) with the opportunity (but not compulsion) to use all those new shiny Heretical charms, but I hosted it on RPOL.net (http://rpol.net/) because I prefer the PbP-specific functionality it provides, would anyone be willing to take that few minutes to sign up for the site to join, or is that too high of a barrier for entry (which I would understand, as I also don't like to join sites I'm not familiar with and don't intend to use a whole lot)?

I'd be interested. I love the kimbery charmset because of my unhealthy ocean obsession, and I would so be up for playing a heretical infernal right now.

[Yuki Akuma]

Such an epic manse. I bow to your mastery of manse design.

Also, checking for interest, if I hosted an Exalted game for decently powerful Infernals (and possibly other kinds of Exalts and supernatural folk) with the opportunity (but not compulsion) to use all those new shiny Heretical charms, but I hosted it on RPOL.net (http://rpol.net/) because I prefer the PbP-specific functionality it provides, would anyone be willing to take that few minutes to sign up for the site to join, or is that too high of a barrier for entry (which I would understand, as I also don't like to join sites I'm not familiar with and don't intend to use a whole lot)?

...Maybe, although I'd heard back things about RPOL.

[Xefas]

I'd possibly be interested, but you'd honestly have to wait until next year to start (aka after holiday season).


I'd be interested. I love the kimbery charmset because of my unhealthy ocean obsession, and I would so be up for playing a heretical infernal right now.

Cool, cool.

...Maybe, although I'd heard back things about RPOL.

Really? O_o I don't use it that frequently, so if there's something bad about it, I'd like to know before I host a game there.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Such an epic manse. I bow to your mastery of manse design.

Also, checking for interest, if I hosted an Exalted game for decently powerful Infernals (and possibly other kinds of Exalts and supernatural folk) with the opportunity (but not compulsion) to use all those new shiny Heretical charms, but I hosted it on RPOL.net (http://rpol.net/) because I prefer the PbP-specific functionality it provides, would anyone be willing to take that few minutes to sign up for the site to join, or is that too high of a barrier for entry (which I would understand, as I also don't like to join sites I'm not familiar with and don't intend to use a whole lot)?

I express interest ! But would like to prefer yozi-kin DB than akuma or infernal. Infernals are too ... eccentric, wich might impair my ascent to Primodalhood.:smallcool:

[Yuki Akuma]

Only GSPs can ascend to Primordialhood. It's a function of their Exaltation, not just the fact that they can take Yozi charms.

And the bad things I've heard about RPoL all have to do with its community, so don't worry.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Meh. It only means they have it easy. :smallbiggrin:

I'll just have to make some extra effort.

[golentan]

It means nobody else can do it. Come on, do you really think that the Twilights wouldn't have gone primordial if they had the ability?

So... If I were to draw up a character for this game, what rules would I be wise to follow?

[Xefas]

It means nobody else can do it. Come on, do you really think that the Twilights wouldn't have gone primordial if they had the ability?

So... If I were to draw up a character for this game, what rules would I be wise to follow?

I'm in the process of drawing up the rules on the site as we speak. When I'm done setting it up, I'll post a link to the game.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't it, theoretically, be possible for a Fair Folk to become a Primordial? I don't know much about Fair Folk, so I could be way off, but aren't the Raksha just tiny bits of a Primordial already?

[Yuki Akuma]

Primordials may or may not be some sort of Fair Folk, but that doesn't mean Raksha can become them.

Most likely, however, Primordials and Fair Folk aren't really related.

[golentan]

Primordials may or may not be some sort of Fair Folk, but that doesn't mean Raksha can become them.

Most likely, however, Primordials and Fair Folk aren't really related.

This.

Though I think I read a theory that raksha might be second and first circle souls of shinma, which are in some ways anti-primordials (primordials embody some concept, shinma are the things which allow concepts to exist by being everything they are not). Which would also explain the enmity between the raksha and the primordials.

[Yuki Akuma]

Nitpick: there is no such thing as first-circle souls.

There are first-circle demons and devas, but those aren't souls - they're spirits created by second-circle souls.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Who said Solars can ? :smalleek:

I see difference between Gaia's essence and Unconquered Sun's essence. :smallwink:

And my favorite thing about 'xalted is that if You are really hell bent on something You might achieve it. In some way, most likely one You don't like.

[golentan]

Mutter mutter mutter.:smallyuk:

Noted.:smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

Dragon-Blooded do not use Primordial charms - and even if they did, they don't have access to two Primordial power sources, which is the entire reason Infernals can ascend.

It requires more than one Yozi/Primordial patron to work! If you only had, say, Gaia's charms, you'd only be able to be Gaia.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Probably Twilights could try, scheme is interesting as an experiment, but as far as I know Solar Exalts have ... certain singlemindesness when one needs subtlety and opaque thinking.

When they could devise artifact that slowly changes people into more enlightened (aka massive socialenginerring resulting in more Enlightened Mortals) they prefer use of a Bestowment charm ... and leave rest stupid and with some silly trinkets. Solars naively believe that punching problems in the face is a cure-all. A flaw inherited from the US, who isn't much more than a glorified Sentry Bot.:smalltongue:

EDIT: Yuki, Akumas can use patron charms.:smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

Akuma can only use one Primordial's charms.

You need two. This is why only Green Sun Princes can do it.

Why is this a difficult concept? If you use one Primordial's charms, you can onyl ascend into that Primordial. You need more than one Primordial's charms to become your own Primordial.

[Rainmar]

Xefas, I have sent you a backstory of my chacrter plus some info!

I hope you will submit charcter creation information soon, heh, were gonna raep Creation so hard.... :)

[Tavar]

So...An Eclipse? Or are they limited in the charms they can learn?

And I'm not sure I'm seeing where you're getting your ideas on Solars. I can think of a couple reasons that they wouldn't want to make such an artifact, even if it was possible.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, there Heresy keyword specifically says Solars can't learn them, so...

[SurlySeraph]

Isn't there a Lunar caste that can use charms from other Exalts as well? Or am I confused?

Also, a few offhand comments on RPG.net Exalted threads have inspired me to think up ideas for Primodial charms that make sense in abilities that should be completely inappropriate for them. Like Malfeas stealth Charms (Witness Annihilation Approach, Eyeball Detonation Prana), Adorjan performance and linguistics charms (Whirling Silence Dance, Meaning-Conveyance Slap), and Ebon Dragon medicine charms (Easily-Revoked Gift, Preexisting Condition Denial, Unaware Donor Transplant).

[Xefas]

Here is the game link. (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=44261&date=1290207136)

I'm kinda new to this whole thing, so consequently, I only plan to add 3-6 people at first. Then, if there's sufficiently demand, add more as I feel comfortable.

[golentan]

Sent you an application.

[The Rose Dragon]

Before the actualization of Creation, there was a Primordial whose might was trapped behind his ideas, which were himself. Then, there was no time flow, no causality and no consequences for actions - only an eternal game played by mighty children and their distant, formless cousins. It was this crippled Primordial's ideas that changed the flow of all things, for he desired a simple world, where ideas of "things happen in different non-spatial locations", "things cause other things that are not themselves and have not caused themselves" and "things have consequences" held true. And while he did not have the might to make these happen, for he was only his ideas, his infinitely merciful and powerful siblings listened and found him interesting. They decided to incorporate him to their wondrous retirement palace when they tired of their games with the raksha.

When the great work of Creation finally came to being, without his involvement, this Primordial expanded to fill all of this new concept, called "Time", for it was his idea, and he was his ideas. He was still impotent compared to his siblings, for he was a prisoner of his own cage, which was still himself, but he found the experience of having the capacity to change things thrilling. And while he could not change the flow of time, as he did not have the might to do so, he could see the entirety of the river while he swam alongside it.

This Primordial, the Visionary of Time, feared one thing above all else, for far ahead in the future, his vision of causality and chronology broke into countless pieces, and beyond which there was only darkness. The Visionary of Time's fears came true at the Primordial War's final years, when the Exalted realized they could not fight the omnitemporal titan himself, and slew his much more vulnerable fetich instead. For brief moments, the Visionary of Time ceased to exist, torn apart from his ideas and creations. When he returned, he was no longer the Visionary of Time, but Waqit, the Thunder Imprisoned Beyond His Cage.

Now, he is trapped within the Demon City, but this imprisonment concerns Waqit little. He is much more worried about his other imprisonment, as he no longer flows through time properly. When his fetich was slain, Waqit was trapped beyond time by the Exalted, and he can no longer live at the same moment as he should. He never exists beyond a day before or after the universal Now, but this imprisonment nevertheless makes his interactions with others difficult, and without his ideas, Waqit can do little but flail madly at those powerless First Circle demons around him. Among his siblings, Oramus sympathizes with him the most, for he knows what it is like to be trapped by himself, and Waqit's unique phase is a part of the Beyond - while Oramus is trapped within, however, Waqit is trapped without; he seeks to be inside the cage, where all else exists, but is forever locked outside.

Because Waqit himself is out-of-sync with everything else, one can only perceive Waqit as he should be Now by gazing at his reflection. Knowing this quirk, Waqit spends much of his time among the polished roots of Szoreny, and strives to be the same as his reflection, but almost never succeeds. He has only accomplished this twice since he ceased to be the Visionary of Time: at the Calibration Festival that marked the Usurpation, and when the Great Contagion was released upon Creation. Few demon scholars know this, all of which bear the mark of Orabilis's touch. Waqit finds their constant study of his reflections amusing when he is behind the universal Now, and irritating when he is ahead of it. Unfortunately for those scholars, he finds it much more desirable to destroy them either way.

[Yuki Akuma]

Isn't there a Lunar caste that can use charms from other Exalts as well? Or am I confused?

No. Only Solars have the talent to be such generalists.

[horngeek]

Can't Midnights and Fiends pull the same trick, though?

[Yuki Akuma]

Here is the game link. (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=44261&date=1290207136)

I'm kinda new to this whole thing, so consequently, I only plan to add 3-6 people at first. Then, if there's sufficiently demand, add more as I feel comfortable.

...I don't know what to play. :smallfrown: Maybe a Siddie...

Edit: In fact... a ronin Chosen of Battles martial artist?


Can't Midnights and Fiends pull the same trick, though?

They have Solar Exaltations.

[Tavar]

Here is the game link. (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=44261&date=1290207136)

I'm kinda new to this whole thing, so consequently, I only plan to add 3-6 people at first. Then, if there's sufficiently demand, add more as I feel comfortable.

Do you have a default starting location/reason the group is together/general goal everyone would share?

[Xefas]

...I don't know what to play. :smallfrown: Maybe a Siddie...
Edit: In fact... a ronin Chosen of Battles martial artist?

Cool.


Do you have a default starting location/reason the group is together/general goal everyone would share?

Ah, that's the cool thing about doing it on RPOL. You guys can converse amongst yourselves while you're in the game, but if you want to play wildly different characters, in difference locations, with different goals, I can put you in separate (invisible to other people if you like) threads, and when more than one group is in an area, I can just stick both of them in an entirely different thread together. Conversely, if you want to be one big happy party, you can negotiate the details out of character and/or in character at any time you choose.

[Yuki Akuma]

...A Ronin would use Resources rather than Salary, right?

[Xefas]

...A Ronin would use Resources rather than Salary, right?

Yes, they would.

[Tavar]

What kinds of information does the Storyteller's Companion give?

[Xefas]

What kinds of information does the Storyteller's Companion give?

Basically, by chapter, it abbreviates all the charms of the various Exalted kinds (except Alchemicals and Infernals which came after this book), gives you templates for quick generation of Exalt NPCs (ex. Young Solider, Social Butterfly, Roving Magistrate, etc), and gives you mounds of Storyteller-centric fluff.

Though, it should be noted that none of the various mechanical examples it incorporates takes into account the multitude of books and errata that have been created since it was printed. It was the second book made, just after the core rulebook, so...yeah.

Oh, and it has the Mandate of Heaven; Exalted's take on a ruleset for ruling your own country and taking kingdom-vs-kingdom actions.

[horngeek]

Oh, and it has the Mandate of Heaven; Exalted's take on a ruleset for ruling your own country and taking kingdom-vs-kingdom actions.

Which... really, isn't that good. Prefer handling that in IC character actions, myself.

[Rainmar]

Hey, Xef. Could you accept me to your flock at RPol :)? In request I have not given the character background, send you on here in PM on Gitp.

[Drascin]

Well, today had a dream where me and a couple others were infiltrating a Raksha court that looked like an office building, with Fae trying to play the role of officeworkers and being creepily Uncanny Valley at it. Highlights include jumping off a window to get into the window of the lower floor which was at a 90º angle somehow and distracting a roving Hannya (which of course looked like the same-named guy from Kenshin) by tossing a hairbrush at his face and running away while he readjusted his mask (don't ask, I'm as weirded out by it as anyone).

This was a very weird night. I kind of wonder how it'd have ended if I hadn't got up so soon. I shouldn't go to bed after browsing the Exalted forums, apparently.

By the way, while I'm here, question: are there any MA styles other than Golden Janissary and White Reaper that allow the use of spears or other polearms?

[Yuki Akuma]

Crimson Pentacle Blade Style allows spears and polearms, I think?

[Rhyvurg]

Five-Dragon allows straight swords and spears (and daiklaves and dire lances) as form weapons, but it has a charm that must be used unarmed regardless. It's...not the best style, but it's fairly versatile and short, like six or seven charms long, you'll master it quickly.

[Drascin]

Crimson Pentacle Blade Style allows spears and polearms, I think?

I have absolutely no idea where that's from.

And I'll give Five-Dragon a look.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have absolutely no idea where that's from.

And I'll give Five-Dragon a look.

Scroll of the Monk.

If all else fails, if it's a martial art, Scroll of the Monk.

[Drascin]

Scroll of the Monk.

If all else fails, if it's a martial art, Scroll of the Monk.

I see. Well, then, while I find it, I have to make the standard question when dealing with SotM: does the style actually work? SotM has a kind of bad track record with stuff being broken (in the nonfunctioning sense), after all :smalltongue:

[ShadowFighter15]

Scroll of the Monk.

If all else fails, if it's a martial art, Scroll of the Monk.

Which is not the same place as the non-existent White Veil Style.

[Yuki Akuma]

I see. Well, then, while I find it, I have to make the standard question when dealing with SotM: does the style actually work? SotM has a kind of bad track record with stuff being broken (in the nonfunctioning sense), after all :smalltongue:

I have no idea. I don't pay much attention to game balance in Exalted - I go with what looks cool. :smalltongue:

Note that Crimson Pentacle Blade is designed as a cooperative MA style, though - it works best with more than one practitioner.

[The Rose Dragon]

Five-Dragon allows straight swords and spears (and daiklaves and dire lances) as form weapons, but it has a charm that must be used unarmed regardless. It's...not the best style, but it's fairly versatile and short, like six or seven charms long, you'll master it quickly.

It's one of the most powerful non-Even Blade Terrestrial styles, actually.

[Drascin]

I have no idea. I don't pay much attention to game balance in Exalted - I go with what looks cool. :smalltongue:

I generally do as well, but there's little more annoying than picking up a charm and then realizing it doesn't work as intended or does almost nothing at all. It's the reason I asked.


Note that Crimson Pentacle Blade is designed as a cooperative MA style, though - it works best with more than one practitioner.

Yeah, I'm noticing. Problematic, that, but still, spears :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

Take a bunch of allies who also know Crimson Pentacle Blade?

[The Rose Dragon]

Take a bunch of allies who also know Crimson Pentacle Blade?

If you mean allies with the Ally background, they don't actually follow you around.

Also, if you want spears as form weapons, there is Crystal Chameleon.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you mean allies with the Ally background, they don't actually follow you around.

Also, if you want spears as form weapons, there is Crystal Chameleon.

They are, however, more likely to come fight with you than just regular guys.

[Ganurath]

Like Malfeas stealth CharmsIGNORE ME!

But yeah, you're confused on the Lunars. Not even in the First Age did they have Eclipse Shenanigans, aside from their ability to learn Fair Folk Charms once they have a Grace to call their own.

*imagines a Lunar with Millipede Mind*

...Gotta love Errata.

[The Rose Dragon]

But yeah, you're confused on the Lunars. Not even in the First Age did they have Eclipse Shenanigans, aside from their ability to learn Fair Folk Charms once they have a Grace to call their own.

Defeated Technique Mastery says hi.

[Ganurath]

Defeated Technique Mastery says hi."If either the Lunar or the target agree to the challenge in bad faith (i.e., intending to rig the contest so that the Lunar may simply learn a power the target knows), the Charm fails to function."

The Errata also extends greetings. While Charm does allow learning, this final paragraph means that it's nowhere near as efficient.

[GryffonDurime]

Akuma can only use one Primordial's charms.

You need two. This is why only Green Sun Princes can do it.

Why is this a difficult concept? If you use one Primordial's charms, you can onyl ascend into that Primordial. You need more than one Primordial's charms to become your own Primordial.

Ye of little faith, Yuke.

That is one road. But the roads themselves are many. :smallwink:

[Ganurath]

A single custom Fair Folk Charm with the Gate of Sundraprisha as a prerequisite springs to mind. Unshaped are as Yozi, Emanations are as Third Circles, Raksha who's Hearts the Emanations hold are as Second Circles, and the poppets and other minions are as First Circles.

[The Rose Dragon]

"If either the Lunar or the target agree to the challenge in bad faith (i.e., intending to rig the contest so that the Lunar may simply learn a power the target knows), the Charm fails to function."

The Errata also extends greetings. While Charm does allow learning, this final paragraph means that it's nowhere near as efficient.

The solution is simple: fight to win. You're a Lunar, you shouldn't need to rig a contest to do so (ideally, at least - the current Lunar Charm trees are mostly a hot mess).

[GryffonDurime]

I am feeling the urge to actually play a Raksha rising, almost without control.

[Ganurath]

I am feeling the urge to actually play a Raksha rising, almost without control.An Essence Pool booster, the Assumption booster that's basically an Excellency allowing more than one die to be added, the Charm selection restrictions no longer making those 3 Non-Grace Charms precious few selections... Ah, the temptation is great from the Errata alone, no? Like a beached whale being pulled back to sea...

Also, TRD: I'd say agreement from the opponent out of a state of resignation and submission would be in bad faith as well, so I don't think that a contest that a Lunar wouldn't need to rig to win for certain would count either. I suppose that depends on the ST, though.

[Teln]

"If either the Lunar or the target agree to the challenge in bad faith (i.e., intending to rig the contest so that the Lunar may simply learn a power the target knows), the Charm fails to function."

The Errata also extends greetings. While Charm does allow learning, this final paragraph means that it's nowhere near as efficient.

So tailor-make a contest you'll be good at, but the target is bad at.

[Reynard]

So tailor-make a contest you'll be good at, but the target is bad at.

That is pretty much the definition of rigging a contest.

[Drascin]

Hey, guys, I need a Lunar concept for a quick introductory game - I'm going to try STing a little in my club, to see about getting people acquainted with the game. I wanted to get a bit of mixed circle to get people to see different Exalt types and skillsets, so I wanted two Solars, two Lunars, and a Sid.

We made a Solar diplomat with a bit of archery, a Solar sorcerer with a little thrown, a Lunar fury-ball frontliner, and a Sidereal martial artist and ninja. I don't know what to pick for the other Lunar. Ideas?


I am feeling the urge to actually play a Raksha rising, almost without control.

I've been pretty curious about Raksha for a while, myself, and hearing they got Errata only increasesmy curiosity. I've always liked weird character types.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Make a catgirl, You can never ever go wrong with that. Some sort of social darling and court parasite or something. Like the housecat giving You gaze commands along the lines of "Pet me food provider, Now !" :smallwink:

[Teln]

That is pretty much the definition of rigging a contest.

Not my definition. If I was Storyteller, I'd rule that it is perfectly acceptable to issue an unfair challenge, as long as both parties involved give their best effort. After all, there's nothing stopping the challenged from simply turning down the contest.

[golentan]

The Ultimate Act of Villainy™:

Become fond of someone trying to kill you, sending them dozens of unwanted invites to your party. When they stumble into your needlessly complicated deathtrap, spare their lives so you can tell them about your upcoming wedding, inviting him to switch sides so he can help fill out your tax forms, slowly driving him insane from boredom as he dies over the course of decades or millennia of old age. Give a speech at his funeral about how it is all your fault if anyone wants to lay blame.

Are we evil yet?

[Reynard]

The Ultimate Act of Villainy™:

Become fond of someone trying to kill you, sending them dozens of unwanted invites to your party. When they stumble into your needlessly complicated deathtrap, spare their lives so you can tell them about your upcoming wedding, inviting him to switch sides so he can help fill out your tax forms, slowly driving him insane from boredom as he dies over the course of decades or millennia of old age. Give a speech at his funeral about how it is all your fault if anyone wants to lay blame.

Are we evil yet?

Nah.

We are living Adorjan's daily life, though.

[golentan]

Nah.

We are living Adorjan's daily life, though.

Nonsense. Adorjan isn't that nice and helpful. Adorjan is Joker-Buddha.

[Rhyvurg]

Sorry for not remembering this yesterday, but in Lords of Creation there's an Essence 5 charm that lets you add any weapon you want to a style as a form weapon, provided you've mastered the style completely. So you could make spears a form weapon of any style you like.

[Xefas]

Sorry for not remembering this yesterday, but in Lords of Creation there's an Essence 5 charm that lets you add any weapon you want to a style as a form weapon, provided you've mastered the style completely. So you could make spears a form weapon of any style you like.

I believe it's only Essence 5 for Terrestrial Styles. I think it goes to Essence 6 for Celestial and Essence 7 for Sidereal.

[Rhyvurg]

It only says mastery of a martial arts style, it makes no distinctions between Terrestrial, Celestial or Sidereal. It's described as part of a custom charm branch of a supernatural martial art style (Terrestrial Hero), and as such it's open to any Exalt to learn.

EDIT: I thought the character in question was a Terrestrial or God-Blood anyway?

[The Rose Dragon]

It only says mastery of a martial arts style, it makes no distinctions between Terrestrial, Celestial or Sidereal. It's described as part of a custom charm branch of a supernatural martial art style (Terrestrial Hero), and as such it's open to any Exalt to learn.

It also lists the different prerequisites for different levels of martial arts. It's not a Terrestrial Hero Style Charm, though, but a general martial arts Charm.

[Rhyvurg]

Still, add any weapon you want to a style as a form weapon. This is definitely on my list of must-have charms.

[The Rose Dragon]

Not any weapon you want. It can break neither the feel nor the balance of the style.

[golentan]

So... I have a question. What sort of might would an army of mutant giant seamonsters be for mass combat? I'm guessing might 1 or 2.

[Drascin]

Make a catgirl, You can never ever go wrong with that. Some sort of social darling and court parasite or something. Like the housecat giving You gaze commands along the lines of "Pet me food provider, Now !" :smallwink:

I'm going to try to de-emphasize the whole "Lunars are kemonomimi" thing, if you don't mind, at least for a first exposure :smalltongue:. In any case, two priamrily talky characters... I dunno. The basic adventure has relatively limited chances to affect things long-term - it's just a one-afternoon introduction game, after all. Social ability is going to be limited to managing to get people to tell the group where their objective is, convince everyone that they are in fact not Anathema so please don't go to the nearest Immaculate temple to call down the killsquads if it's the same to you thank you very much, and such other similar things :smalltongue:. Well, I can always reduce the diplomatic focus of the other guy a bit and suggest them they act in tandem.

[Yuki Akuma]

"Kemonomimi" is a silly word.

(It should probably be "kemonojin". Shh.)

[Drascin]

It's just such a fun word to say, though :smalltongue:. Though yes, you're probably right.

[The Rose Dragon]

I've got an orthodox yet fun concept to play, but I don't know how to implement it mechanically.

Basically, it's a Solar that beat the crap out of a raksha, and stole his Sword Grace... which was literally a behemoth shaped like a sword. Now, he uses the Dream-Scything Glory as his main weapon, because he worked hard to get it (i.e. kept punching the raksha until he started crying gossamer), and feels a special connection to it.

Of course, there are no rules I know of that help you create a Wyld behemoth that is a weapon rather than a monster. So, it'd be really great if you could help me create my 4-dot behemothklave.

[Rikandur Azebol]

It depends on the behemoth in question, what kind of beast it was ?

Drascin, You know God just killed a catgirl ?:smallamused:
But if You don't like the furry theme, try making her sneaky lizard thing then ?

[golentan]

It depends on the behemoth in question, what kind of beast it was ?

Drascin, You know God just killed a catgirl ?:smallamused:
But if You don't like the furry theme, try making her sneaky lizard thing then ?

A Sea Dragon (60 foot long superpredator: the tyrant lizard of the oceans) given... My current wish list has poisonous tentacles, acid breath, and physical toughness boosts.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Rose Dragon, I might advice You if You'll tell me what kind of behemoth it was ... as example I'll use Golentan's proposal.

So ... behemoth transformed into a blade from the Sea Dragon with Poison Tentacles, Acid Breath and Immortal Flesh ... let mesee ...

Whip with such abilities: when attuned, You can move it as Your own arm ... for motes You can make it secret acidic poison and as long as it is in Your attunement You would heal much, much faster and breathe water.

[The Rose Dragon]

It's not a behemoth forcibly shaped into a sword. It's a behemoth whose natural shape is a living sword.

[Rainmar]

After reading gracefull wicked masques I understand that behemoths have two forms, that natural of it (if in wyld anything can be called natural) and that of a weapon. Basicly it need a Raksha to somehow defeat the behemoth and shape it into a weapon. Behemoth whose natural form is that of a weapon...well, I can hardly think of it that way. Behemoths are, like name suggest, titanical creatures of great power, destruction given shape. The whole point, for me, for shaped weapons is to beat down such chap and shape him. With that you concentrate awesome amount of destructive power in a form of a weapon. Anoth problem I see is that after Raksha's death such a weapon would revert back to it's original form...and look that's one pissed behemoth to grind into XP :). Also where would you like to wield such a weapon? If in wyld then you would have to beat up it again and shape it(given you have graces and stuff needed to make such thing) and if you would like to have such weapon in creation...the only idea I currently have is to craft such behemoth into a weapon, killing it in proces but preserving its power in weapon...the other idea would be to...dunno, craft him in 'infernal' style. In Infernal's handbook there is a sample living sword named "scorn" if I remember correctly.

[Ganurath]

It's not a behemoth forcibly shaped into a sword. It's a behemoth whose natural shape is a living sword.That's not a behemoth, that's a Treasure with a Bestial Evocation. Not that it matters either way, though, because Creation-born can't learn Assumptions, Assumptions are prerequisites for Evocations, and Evocations are neccesary for Fae artifacts to exist in Creation.

[DeadManSleeping]

Of course, there are no rules I know of that help you create a Wyld behemoth that is a weapon rather than a monster. So, it'd be really great if you could help me create my 4-dot behemothklave.

Step 1: Make the Wyld rules not suck
Step 2: Use the new, non-suck Wyld rules
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

Or, there's option 2

Step 1: Make something up
Step 2: Retcon whenever necessary
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

[golentan]

Or, alternately, you could draw it up kind of as a hellforged wonder, then substitute appropriate behemoth powers.

[Drascin]

So, I've been winging it a bit up to now, since it'd been a fairly secondary ability set for my characters up to now, but I'm finally making a fairly social character (mostly focusing on Excellencies, though. I'm not touching Sid social charms with a ten foot pole. Somebody needs to give Venus a punch in the face), I need someone to give me an explanation of how the social abilities and Attributes work. What is Manipulation? Somebody's ability at lying, versus Charisma being convincing with truths? Being able to find the right word versus Charisma being convincing by raw force of personality? And where the hell does Socialize fall?

[golentan]

Charisma is "Wow, that guy is cool. I'll listen to what he has to say." Manipulation is "Wow, that guy has a persuasive argument. I'll listen to what he has to say."

Not exactly, but I hope you get the idea. It can be lying, but it is not so by default.

[Xefas]

And where the hell does Socialize fall?

Golentan did a good job with Charisma/Manipulation, but as for Socialize, it's kind of like the social equivalent of "War". You don't make attacks with it, but you use it to coordinate. So, it's more your character's ability to see the Big Social Picture, administrate social gatherings, run political campaigns, and things like that.

I think.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's also what you roll when you're just shooting the breeze with NPCs and want them to like you. :smallwink:

I think it's also the default "lying" ability.

[The Rose Dragon]

Golentan did a good job with Charisma/Manipulation, but as for Socialize, it's kind of like the social equivalent of "War". You don't make attacks with it, but you use it to coordinate. So, it's more your character's ability to see the Big Social Picture, administrate social gatherings, run political campaigns, and things like that.

I think.

It's also used to make unexpected social attacks by reestablishing surprise.

[Xefas]

It's also what you roll when you're just shooting the breeze with NPCs and want them to like you. :smallwink:

Really? I've only played one social character, and he had Crowned With Fury, so my casual shooting-the-breeze-to-make-random-NPCs-like-me was just "Like me! LIKE MEEE!!" as I shook my fist angrily at them.

[Drascin]

Well, Charisma/Manipulation is pretty understandable. Socialize, however, seems to be rather all over the place it's lying, but also smalltalk, but also quick and surprising turns of phrase, but also... :smalltongue:. Well, the social abilities as a whole seem to be rather over the place.

Basically, the character I have in mind is a great actor and a great talker - he doesn't have raw magnetism, but he's persuasive through making very good points and backing them up with a prose that would make the Greek masters of the sophist school nod and clap in approval. So, I got Performance for the acting and the great monologues... but from the Core, it could also be Presence, since Presence is "the ability used for long-term persuading". And it could maybe need part Socialize because apparently socialize is also used to "realize and understand the feelings of others" (wouldn't that be Perception+Investigation anyway?) and it's absurd to expect a non-tailored discourse to affect anyone. So you can see how I'm a bit confused.

[Yuki Akuma]

You have enough starting ability dots and bonus points to take every social ability rather high.

[Tavar]

Quick question: can a God-Blooded/Ghost-blooded/Half-caste/etc Exalt?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes.

Half-castes always Exalt as their parent's type.

[Xefas]

Quick question: can a God-Blooded/Ghost-blooded/Half-caste/etc Exalt?

Yes, though it is said to "Burn" the impurities of your half-ness out of you when you Exalt, mostly as a balancing mechanic. It is "unheard of" (i.e. strongly suggested against but still technically agreeable with GM fiat) for a Half-Exalt to Exalt as something other than what their half-ness is.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Quick question: can a God-Blooded/Ghost-blooded/Half-caste/etc Exalt?

Yes, but they lose all GB abilities not covered by physical mutations. Exaltation is burning away the lesser essence patterns to make way for itself.

[The Rose Dragon]

Quick question: can a God-Blooded/Ghost-blooded/Half-caste/etc Exalt?

They can, and unless they are Half-Castes, there is no limitation on what kind of Celestial Exaltation they can receive. So, a Ghost-blooded doesn't need to Exalt as an Abyssal just because he has necrotic Essence.

[golentan]

They can, and unless they are Half-Castes, there is no limitation on what kind of Celestial Exaltation they can receive. So, a Ghost-blooded doesn't need to Exalt as an Abyssal just because he has necrotic Essence.

Kind of like how I get the impression Gothy-mcSidereal came about.

Canon example.

[The Rose Dragon]

Kind of like how I get the impression Gothy-mcSidereal came about.

Canon example.

You know, he has a name.

An name often mocked by turning it into "Black Eye Shadow", but still.

[golentan]

You know, he has a name.

An name often mocked by turning it into "Black Eye Shadow", but still.

I find it hard to take him seriously, is all. So I push even harder the other direction.

[horngeek]

...who are we talking about, and where is he? O.o

[Yuki Akuma]

Black Ice Shadow, the iconic Chosen of Endings.

[The Rose Dragon]

Black Ice Shadow. He is all over the cover of the Sidereals book, and can often be seen along Abyssals.

[Reynard]

Also, he's a mildly creepy, but one of the few actual non-douchebag characters in the setting.

The others being pre-emo Demetheous and most of his circle, Kes, Nightwarden, The Smith, That Lunar I Can't Remember The Name Of That Saves Lillun, Lillun herself, and a couple others.

[Yuki Akuma]

Lillun's not a douchebag, no.

She is, however, a horrific, bipolar psycho.

[Xefas]

Wait, are we talking about Lilith the Lunar, or Lillun the Phylactery Womb?

[The Rose Dragon]

Exalted mad-libs time (I'm lacking a character concept, so I thought I'd turn it into a little game)!

He is a [Exalt type] [Caste] [Profession] with [Psychological Trauma] and a [Noun] as a weapon who wants to [Phrasal Verb]. She is a [Non-Exalt Splat] [Profession] who [Verb] [Noun] and [Dark Past]. Together, they [Epic Deed]!

[Ganurath]

Wait, are we talking about Lilith the Lunar, or Lillun the Phylactery Womb?The Womb. The Lunar is question is Black Asp, who is also known for such feats as surviving the ire of Magnificent Jaguar and taking down Harmonious Jade like a joke.

Exalted mad-libs time (I'm lacking a character concept, so I thought I'd turn it into a little game)!

He is a [Abyssal] [Day caste] [scavenger] with [shameless megalomania] and a [serpent-sting staff] as a weapon who wants to [kill those who ignored him]. She is a [Ghost-Blooded] [socialite] who [assassinates] [her father's agents] and [is the Green Lady's unwitting pawn]. Together, they [liberate Stygia from the Deathlords]!How's that for you?

[Tavar]

Wait, are we talking about Lilith the Lunar, or Lillun the Phylactery Womb?

I think Yuki's talking about Lilith, and Reynard is talking about Lillun.

[Xefas]

The Womb. The Lunar is question is Black Asp, who is also known for such feats as surviving the ire of Magnificent Jaguar and taking down Harmonious Jade like a joke.

Oh, that's who's in that comic. I wondered that, with Lunars being the Exalt type I probably know the least about right now. Although, did she actually save Lillun? I always assumed she died like 10 seconds after that last frame. Not because I wanted that to happen, but because I figure whoever decided writing in a mutilated infant as an important character for a setting was a good idea probably gets their kicks like that.

Also:
He is a [Lunar] [Full Moon with a Zebra spirit shape] [public defender] with [color agnosia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_agnosia)] and a [God Kicking Boot] as a weapon who wants to [enforce his own brand of black-and-white morality on Creation]. She is a [Djala] [panda shepherd] who [is thrown into a violent rage by] [bright colors] and [whose children were murdered by the Akuma of Hegra, who is incidentally a Yozi composed of a swirling storm of psychedelic colors]. Together, they [break the Loom of Fate, eliminating all color from Creation.]

[meschlum]

So, creating a behemoth sword. Perfectly acceptable, since behemoths are the stuff from which narratives of war and battle are made. In the Wyld, you have a singularly potent weapon which could do things like call lightning down on your foes, or summon forth armies at your command, or simply slay anyone it strikes (and never miss). Easy.

When dealing with the Creation-born, your sword needs to have actual powers, of course.


The first key question is whether you are operating pre-errata, or post errata.

Pre-errata is good for illusion and trickster types, as well as raw versatility.

Post-errata is more structured, and opens up a few combat options.


In any case, the behemoth's attacks have the properties of a 1 or 2 dot artifact weapon (with magical material bonuses), so that's a baseline for the raw combat stats.


1 point: Assumption form. Earth for a 'normal' weapon, water or fire for extra shiny aspects to it. Dreams and Passion or Cerements and Bone can also serve.

You now have 14 mutation points to distribute.


Pre-Errata

Optionally, 2 points gives Mad God Mien, so your weapon is Outside Fate, which can be useful if dealing with Sidereals. See Extinction of Desire for a strictly superior option.

3 points: Transient Work of Flesh and Bone. When you raise your blade above your head on a battlefield, an army of wyld things crawls out of the ground to do your biddding.

3 points: Teeth of the World. Brandish your blade in the direction of the foe, and a bolt of lightning strikes them down!

1 point: Extinction of Desire. Your weapon never was and never will be anything but a perfect blade. Makes it indestructible (with soaks of +26/+26 beyond Stamina, and requiring magical materials to damage) and outside fate (cheaper than Mad God Mien, so go for this!). Useful if you expect opponents to try and destroy your sword rather than treat it as a weapon.

6 points: Fearsome Mien. When your blade is unsheathed, it fills the hearts of all nearby with nigh disabling terror.

3 points: Heart Stealing Kiss. Your blade drinks deeply of the courage of any it strikes, destroying their Valor (temporarily).

3 points: Essence Disrobing Passion. By performing a terrifying kata, you cut away at the essence your opponents hope to use against you.

1 point: Elemental Transformation. If you face a truly worthy opponent, you release the gems held in the sword's crosspiece, allowing the inner flame / water / lightning within full reign. Gain Essence + 3 more mutation points when transformed (requires a Speed 5 action to activate, though).

3 points: Preemptive Declaration of Victory. Demonstrate the second kata of your weapon, and entire armies will melt away rather than dare face you.

2 points: Armament of Flesh. If you feel that your weapon stats are not quite good enough. Take it more than once if you like...

12 points: Curse of Definition. Anyone facing your sword simply cannot dodge its blows. As an alternative, make them incapable of parrying. If they stunt their defense or use a Charm, they still get a -2 External penalty. Probably too expensive.

3 points: Defining the Parameters of Battle. Requires partial Errata access for the Defend Other action. Your sword instrinctively moves to deflect blows coming towards you, repelling the most potent strikes as if they were noting more than amateur attempts.

2 points: Imposition of Law. As with Defining the Parameters of Battle, except now you can parry an unlimited number of extras.

2 points: Gossamer Wing Flight. Or 6 points for better flight, allows your sword to move around on its own and attack people. This opens up many more options, but detracts from the theme.


Post-errata

Most of the options above are no longer valid. But we can use Defend Other without remorse, meaning that the sword is suddenly an extremely good defensive tool. Go figure.

2 points: Endless Yawning Void. When drawn, your sword summons a storm of lightning bolts about it, shocking any who dare come close.

2 points: Imposition of Law. Your sword now cannot fail to Defend Other (you) when dealing with extras.

2 points: Knife Hand Dream. If your essence is high enough (3+), you do extra damage, and possibly even aggravated (5+).

2 points: Opalescent Gossamer Raiment. If you're worried that 20/20 soak won't quite do for your sword. Add in Blade Turning Skin for another 1 point and get some aggravated soak too.

2 points: Rarefied Air of Inevitable Victory. For another +1 to DV when your sword is defending you.

2 points: Gossamer Winged Flight. Now much cheaper and more effective. Still against genre.

1 point: Surpassing Excellence. Another 2 dice for Defend Other. Are you immune to blockable attacks yet?

2 points: Glorious Hero Form (Dexterity). Because you really, really, need another die to block attacks with.

2 points: Hundred Hand Style. If your GM requires a higher Rate on the sword so it can defend you. Worse than Armament of Flesh, in any case.

2 points: Armament of Flesh. Enhance your attack, defense, and damage (or rate). Much more cost effective than Glorious Hero Form, and more versatile too. Slightly worse than Knife-Hand Dream if you're Essence 3+ and care about damage.

4 points: Shuffling the Pieces. Those who die to your blade are bound to serve you afterwards, as fey beings flow from their corpses to replenish the ranks of your troops. Actually something that wasn't possible pre-errata!


Mutations

There are some mutations that work well either way.

1+ points: Large, Huge, etc. Because if you're walking around with a really big sword, you may as well ensure that it is REALLY BIG! Also gives stamina and health levels, in case people start attacking it.

6 points: Essence Attack / Dragon's Breath / Whatever. A way to toss lightning bolts at people if you're post errata, or want slightly different mechanics on your blast, or throw acid / tiny knives at foes pre-errata.


Conclusion

Pre-errata, you could do a truly insane amount of neat things, depending on the style you wanted for your weapon and combat techniques. Toss lightning bolts, summon armies or monsters, do massive damage on a hit while draining motes and / or virtues, parry unblockable attacks... And that's just my ideas.

Post errata, you get a souped up 2 dot artefact weapon that can defend you exceedingly well (against blockable attacks only), and maybe a minor damaging aura or the ability to spawn minor fey servants when you kill someone.

Neat, but very narrow and too focused on the numbers - the prospective stats you could get weapon-wise are liable to summon an unhappy GM, and that's almost all you can do.


Yes, I'm disappointed in the errata - and that's not even why.

[Ganurath]

...since behemoths are the stuff from which narratives of war and battle are made.Close, but not quite. Those would be Sword-shaping actions, including but not limited to Sword-shaping attacks. Sword-shaping weapons, including but not limited to behemoths, are the tools by which such narratives are brought to bear: the stylus, the plot outline, and the moment of inspiration outside the gas station.

In the Wyld, you have a singularly potent weapon which could do things like call lightning down on your foes, or summon forth armies at your command, or simply slay anyone it strikes (and never miss). Easy.That first one could actually be Ring-shaping, depending on whether the lightning is coming from the weapon or the environment.

Crunch.Umm... How many dots of what sort of artifact are you using? I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers.

Yes, I'm disappointed in the errata - and that's not even why.As a Fair Folk enthusiast who is utterly thrilled with the errata, I'm curious as to the cause for your frustration.

[meschlum]

Close, but not quite. Those would be Sword-shaping actions, including but not limited to Sword-shaping attacks. Sword-shaping weapons, including but not limited to behemoths, are the tools by which such narratives are brought to bear: the stylus, the plot outline, and the moment of inspiration outside the gas station.

Agreed. Still illustrates the possibility of using a sword as a behemoth.


That first one could actually be Ring-shaping, depending on whether the lightning is coming from the weapon or the environment.

If it's a feature of a behemoth, Ring isn't an option (variable gossamer cost pre-errata, not a mutation post-errata). If you're using Ring charms, you don't even *need* to rely on a Sword Grace / Behemoth. Transluscent Dream Sheathing Technology + Gossamer weapons = fun.


Umm... How many dots of what sort of artifact are you using? I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers.

The inital request was for a 4 dot behemoth. Which is 15 mutation points, plus the properties of a 1 or 2 dot artifact weapon with magical materials.

I listed more than can be afforded with 14 points (an Assumption Form is required, after all), to allow for some customization and creativity.


As a Fair Folk enthusiast who is utterly thrilled with the errata, I'm curious as to the cause for your frustration.


I like a lot of the new charm options, and some of the clarifications are quite useful. But.



Mutation and Glamour Changes


I appreciate the difference made between the two, and the introduction of inward / outward spells, which clarifies a lot. This is nice, and I'm happy. Losing a plethora of behemoth, oneiromancy, and oath options is very disappointing, however.


Some things definitely had to go, but it feels like a bit too much has been pruned out. Such as Teeth of the World and Heart Stealing Kiss - monsters that command the elements or eat souls are extremely traditional tropes, and are no longer feasible.

Chancels


A 1 dot chancel is a 1 dot artifact giving you 1800 square miles (3 waypoints, 30 mile diameter each) of entirely shapeable terrain. And it's portable. And you can respire in it.


This completely destroys the point of the change to the rules for motes from stunts, and is vastly superior to a 1 dot freehold background (1 pennant, allowing its owner to spy on you. Or step into your chancel, engage arbitrary time, emerge with all motes and willpower at full). Not to mention the insane logistics options that it provides.


Four Fair Folk. Two heroics (Silent Death and Noisy Doom), and two commoners (Porter and Carrier). Silent somehow gets to the Blessed Isle, or some other place deep within Creation. He has a chancel, containing Carrier (who belongs to Noisy) and an army. Noisy is in the furthest reaches of the Deep Wyld, with Porter (who belongs to Silent) and infinite armies.

Silent brings forth his army, then gives his chancel to Carrier. Noisy summons Carrier back, then puts Carrier into the chancel, and gives the chancel to Porter after loading an army into it. Silent summons Porter, pulls out the army, puts Porter into the Chancel and gives it to Carrier. Repeat.

Glamour Resistance


A 500 year old Fair Folk specialized in illusions and mind breaking is completely ineffective against Exalts with Willpower 8+, Integrity 4+ and Essence 3+. Whereas a purely combat focussed Fair Folk can still pose a threat.

The same 500 year old illusion expert Fair Folk is as good as a recently spawned hobgoblin with a random illusion Charm. Even if the hobgoblin has slightly less brains than a rock, and no clue as to how people think.

The same hobgoblin can use his illusion to utterly confound any mortal (except those with Willpower 10 and Integrity 5), no matter how incompetent he may be.

Even if intimacies and motivations contribute, there is still no difference between newly spawned figments of the Wyld and potent masters of deception. Besides the GM arbitrarily decreeing that the latter somehow know your Intimacies and Motivations better.

Also, everyone should be wearing a cold iron ring in Creation. It grants massive, blanket immunity without any need to interact. Once upon a time (pre-errata), you had to put on the cold iron goggles to see through an illusion, or shield yourself with a cold iron shield to deflect a blow. Now? Wear a ring, and you won't even realize there's anything going on.

Oaths


Are now nearly useless. For the price of one Charm (and some gossamer, which is now cheap thanks to the revised Feeding Charms), you have 6 mutation points which you can turn on or off as you like. This would require at least 4 commited motes (out of not many) as an Oath, and require you stick to its terms.

I'll grant that an oath granting only Fair Folk Charms with the Mutation keyword is an option. But then, to get 6 points worth of mutations, you're better off with three 1-dot oaths (3 motes commited) than one bigger oath. Which makes the larger oaths... less than useful.

Specifics


Mostly annoyances at this level, but still.

Emotion Weaving Style was insane. Agreed. Now it's useless - resisting it costs 1 Willpower, so you only employ it when your target is already out of willpower. At which point you may as well convince him to follow you and have his will broken the old way. Plus, cold iron. Insert similar grumbles about Beguilement and Undetectable Lie (aka "spend 1 willpower to ignore my blatant lie, which by fluff you would have believed and rationalized").

I don't understand the hatred for Imposition of Law. Once upon a time, it worked against Excellencies, requiring creativity or an obviously magical effect to be bypassed. Now? Poof. I'd also like to know whether IoL with a weapon grants unlimited Parry DV or not. Though IoL 'Curing the Great Contagion' would have made for an excellent bargaining tool...

If a charm is lost to Spirit Flaying Meditation, is access to the follow up charms lost as well? The Birth revision explicitly states that pre-requisites do not apply. There is no errata for this (and I want it as an oath, to consume the Assumption Charms of those sworn to me, or as a spell, to anihilate the Essence of those who look at it). A trifle, but it does allow Fair Folk to learn Celestial Martial Arts and be Unshaped (since only the Root of the Perfected Lotus prevents resuming Unshaped form).

Glorious Hero Form not stacking means that it is no longer possible for commoners to be better at an attribute than their masters. Despite ancient Fair Folk forming the most comely Entertainers they can imagine, none of them will ever demonstrate unearthly beauty. I understand that stacking 5 points of dexterity is frowned upon, but that just means that mutations will be employed instead, to the same effect (or better - see Large).

Shape Forged Servant and Behemoth Forging Meditation only grant mutation points, despite fluff describing them as being behemoth like. Can they grant Fair Folk Charms with the Mutation keyword? What is the limit on the mutation points granted to a Shape Forged Servant (3 points per gossamer * 1000 gossamer = trouble)? Can Behemoth Forging Meditation be used repeatedly to grant more mutations? Does it work on Exalts? Do Behemoths created with the charm require an Assumption Charm to exist in Creation?

[Yuki Akuma]

I think Yuki's talking about Lilith, and Reynard is talking about Lillun.

Wrong.7890

[Tavar]

Wrong.7890

So...how exactly is Lillun a horrific, bipolar psycho?

[Ganurath]

The inital request was for a 4 dot behemoth. Which is 15 mutation points, plus the properties of a 1 or 2 dot artifact weapon with magical materials.

I listed more than can be afforded with 14 points (an Assumption Form is required, after all), to allow for some customization and creativity.You probably should have also mentioned the four point version of Small, but that would still make it bigger than a warstrider grand daiklave because, in case you forgot, it's a city-eating monster. That part about it having the weapon stats of a 1-2 dot artifact? Those aren't its stats as a weapon, those are the stats of its natural weapon.

Mutation and Glamour ChangesLosing the flexibility that the old mechanics had was unfortunate, but neccesary for balance. The Charms too powerful to be placed in mutation form, such as Heart Stealing Kiss? You can still get those Charms as normal. Only now, you actually have to pay the cost in motes, wp, and gossamer to bad touch the target's soul away.

ChancelsThose would all be very fine points if the Way Grace were a common thing, Pure Chaos was safe for shaped raksha, or if raksha put what was most mechanically efficient before what would make a good story. None of those are the case.

Glamour ResistanceThe old mechanics were cripplingly convoluted by comparison, and not all the tricks in a non-combat Fair Folk's arsenal allow for such resistance. As for the matter of cold iron, I support it for the same reason I support the change to the stunt rules: Pre-errata, one has to wonder why everyone in the Wyld Hunt didn't carry a cold iron shield and use cold iron goggles. Now, not an issue.

OathsYou seem to have forgotten two things. One is that 4-5 dot Adjurations get additional benefits appropriate to an artifact of their caliber. Two is that Adjurations, in addition to granting mutation points, are shaping weapons, and remarkably flexible ones since you can choose the stats between default, ranged, and clinching.

Emotion Weaving Style was insane. Agreed. Now it's useless - resisting it costs 1 Willpower, so you only employ it when your target is already out of willpower. At which point you may as well convince him to follow you and have his will broken the old way. Plus, cold iron. Insert similar grumbles about Beguilement and Undetectable Lie (aka "spend 1 willpower to ignore my blatant lie, which by fluff you would have believed and rationalized").So given a choice between a broken charm and a subpar charm, you'd rather see a broken charm?

I don't understand the hatred for Imposition of Law. Once upon a time, it worked against Excellencies, requiring creativity or an obviously magical effect to be bypassed. Now? Poof. I'd also like to know whether IoL with a weapon grants unlimited Parry DV or not. Though IoL 'Curing the Great Contagion' would have made for an excellent bargaining tool...Similar question to the above, really. I'm not a fan of the powering down, but I can understand why they would want to avoid making Permanent reactionary Charms too inticing for raksha, as the Fair Folk are supposed to be the ones that make the story happen.

If a charm is lost to Spirit Flaying Meditation, is access to the follow up charms lost as well? The Birth revision explicitly states that pre-requisites do not apply. Ideas for abusive stuff that this blatant misinterpretation would allow.The Birth revision applies to Charms gained through the Birth background, and I'm fairly confident that any ST that you tried to argue otherwise to would throw the book at you - literally. If the prerequisite waver were universal, it would have been on p69-70 of the Errata, where the new general rules for Charms were detailed.

Glorious Hero Form not stacking means that it is no longer possible for commoners to be better at an attribute than their masters. Despite ancient Fair Folk forming the most comely Entertainers they can imagine, none of them will ever demonstrate unearthly beauty. I understand that stacking 5 points of dexterity is frowned upon, but that just means that mutations will be employed instead, to the same effect (or better - see Large).Now this one, I can agree on. I think it's totally unreasonable that they should make it impossible for a character to have arbitrarily high Attributes as a Permanent effect. Forget the possibility of a Dex 20 Noble, I find the very idea that commoners can't be better than nobles without actually making effort at development through the narrative that defines their being offensive. The preceeding content of this paragraph is sarcastic.

Shape Forged Servant and Behemoth Forging Meditation only grant mutation points, despite fluff describing them as being behemoth like. Can they grant Fair Folk Charms with the Mutation keyword? What is the limit on the mutation points granted to a Shape Forged Servant (3 points per gossamer * 1000 gossamer = trouble)? Can Behemoth Forging Meditation be used repeatedly to grant more mutations? Does it work on Exalts? Do Behemoths created with the charm require an Assumption Charm to exist in Creation?Yes, none, so long as the target hasn't been turned into a fey beast yet, no, given the rules with mortals and mutation points in excess of willpower I would assume so.

[meschlum]

You probably should have also mentioned the four point version of Small, but that would still make it bigger than a warstrider grand daiklave because, in case you forgot, it's a city-eating monster. That part about it having the weapon stats of a 1-2 dot artifact? Those aren't its stats as a weapon, those are the stats of its natural weapon.

By default, it's still human sized, so many levels of Small aren't really appropriate. The request was for a Behemoth with the shape of a sword, so its natural attack would be what someone wielding it does for damage.

If used as a shaping weapon, it would certainly be more potent, but that's moving away from the initial request.


Losing the flexibility that the old mechanics had was unfortunate, but neccesary for balance. The Charms too powerful to be placed in mutation form, such as Heart Stealing Kiss? You can still get those Charms as normal. Only now, you actually have to pay the cost in motes, wp, and gossamer to bad touch the target's soul away.

So a horde of Commoner Entertainers can freely (and irresistably) consume the souls of those they touch, but a terrifying beast rfom out of legend can't?

I agree that some of the charms were... extremely open ended. I feel the pruning has been excessive.


Those would all be very fine points if the Way Grace were a common thing, Pure Chaos was safe for shaped raksha, or if raksha put what was most mechanically efficient before what would make a good story. None of those are the case.

So you don't do it from Pure Chaos. Still grants Creation-wide teleportation for armies. Even ignoring that, it still allows carrying armies with you. As a 1 dot artefact. If you're arguing here that mechanics can be ignored for the sake of story, why argue elsewhere that story can be ignored for the sake of mechanics?

Essentially, the way chancels work, to me, goes entirely against the change that's been made to Fae survival in Creation.



The old mechanics were cripplingly convoluted by comparison, and not all the tricks in a non-combat Fair Folk's arsenal allow for such resistance. As for the matter of cold iron, I support it for the same reason I support the change to the stunt rules: Pre-errata, one has to wonder why everyone in the Wyld Hunt didn't carry a cold iron shield and use cold iron goggles. Now, not an issue.

I remain disappointed that Fair Folk now can't get better at casting illusions. And start out capable of deceiving all but the most excessively astute mortals.

Eating souls now works better - cold iron won't help you. Actually weaving illusions and melting minds? Not an option.

We have differing views in rarity and knowledge. I feel that it would be widespread knowledge that cold iron rings grant nigh immunity to the fae, and quite easy to get the same. I feel that the supplies needed to be sure of being protected from the Fair Folk's tricks should be hard to get. You seem to differ.


You seem to have forgotten two things. One is that 4-5 dot Adjurations get additional benefits appropriate to an artifact of their caliber. Two is that Adjurations, in addition to granting mutation points, are shaping weapons, and remarkably flexible ones since you can choose the stats between default, ranged, and clinching.

Staff combat is not ranged, and you need a specific weapon type to perform clinching. An adjuration only grants artefact class bonuses in shaping battle, but not in Creation (where it's just mutations). So, again, oaths are now purely useful for Wyld based games, where they once could be worthwhile everywhere (or worth more, at least).


So given a choice between a broken charm and a subpar charm, you'd rather see a broken charm?

When every charm that does this one thing (melt minds) is rendered subpar, I feel entitled to expressing disappointment. The great tricksters and diplomats of the fey are now incapable of doing what the fluff says they can.


Similar question to the above, really. I'm not a fan of the powering down, but I can understand why they would want to avoid making Permanent reactionary Charms too inticing for raksha, as the Fair Folk are supposed to be the ones that make the story happen.

IoL and Bastion of the Self continue to suffer dissonance between the mechanics (largely useless against non-Extras) and the fluff ("You can only be killed when standing neither on land nor in the sea. Oh, or if a dragonblood spends 1 mote, or an enlightened mortal jumps over a table to hit you.")


The Birth revision applies to Charms gained through the Birth background, and I'm fairly confident that any ST that you tried to argue otherwise to would throw the book at you - literally. If the prerequisite waver were universal, it would have been on p69-70 of the Errata, where the new general rules for Charms were detailed.

Sure. Spirit Flaying Meditation remains a charm that has not been touched in the errata (unlike all the others with gossamer costs), and the only method I know of to lose Charms or attributes. Which means the topic of losing prerequisites has not been explored. Hence, something that the errata could have clarified.


Now this one, I can agree on. I think it's totally unreasonable that they should make it impossible for a character to have arbitrarily high Attributes as a Permanent effect. Forget the possibility of a Dex 20 Noble, I find the very idea that commoners can't be better than nobles without actually making effort at development through the narrative that defines their being offensive. The preceeding content of this paragraph is sarcastic.

Yes. Evidently, taking one charm to permanently stack Large many times is excessively reasonable, but it simply will not do for a Fair Folk Guide to be uncannily perceptive. Or an Entertainer sculpted out of Wyld stuff over the course of years by a vicious and ugly warlord to be more than humanly beautiful. Or...

People out to get huge attributes could already do so via mutation. This Charm actually set limits, and was very expensive. Now they'll just use cheap mutations. Congratulations!


Yes, none, so long as the target hasn't been turned into a fey beast yet, no, given the rules with mortals and mutation points in excess of willpower I would assume so.

Yes: so one can now create proto-Fair Folk with all the Mutation-keyword charms, then forge graces for them. A mechanics hack that just got worse.

None: see above. Eat a village, give your servant Large * 1000. Repeat.

Not yet a fey beast: so you grant 9 points of mutations, then find a high essence noble (6, say. Easy with God Monster Form) to get a 1-dot behemoth with 21 mutation points. Better than a 5-dot behemoth, and negligible attunement cost.

No: Why not? Exalts can pick up mutations from the Wyld. Fey beast status is probably out, but otherwise...


And none of these are clarified in the errata - in fact it creates some of the issues. Incidentally, I'd like to have it clarified whether Behemoth Forging Meditation can remove mutations. And whether it can give the Essence Channeler mutation. And what happens to fey beasts with that mutation. In fact, Essence Channeler needs errata. Badly. "Hi, I have an Abomination that threatens my ability to live in Creation. It gives me the power you get for studying martial arts, at no long term cost."


On an unrelated note, Fair Folk still can't protect others from the Wyld. Despite the power described in the core book. Unless they are constantly shaping the local reality to be safe... which doesn't match the core book, or have any rules.

[Ganurath]

By default, it's still human sized, so everything after this is based on that and therefore meaningless.Page 135 of GWM says repeatedly, in various terms, that Behemoths are big. The errata says nothing to contradict this. What basis do you have for this assertion?

So a horde of Commoner Entertainers can freely (and irresistably) consume the souls of those they touch, but a terrifying beast rfom out of legend can't?Nope: They need to spend 3m, 1wp, and 1g to use the Charm, and then need to succeed on a Dex+MA roll to hit the target. The terrifying beast of legend admittedly has to settle for hitting you, then sucking out your soul in exchange for surrender, but they favor the Sword over the Cup so it's more fitting for their style than a draining caress.

So you don't do it from Pure Chaos. Still grants Creation-wide teleportation for armies. Even ignoring that, it still allows carrying armies with you. As a 1 dot artefact. If you're arguing here that mechanics can be ignored for the sake of story, why argue elsewhere that story can be ignored for the sake of mechanics?1. You're ignoring the fact that the Way Grace can only be gained through a specific Unshaped, and by the same token Chancels.
2. One can get the same effect with any Evocation Charm and the Extras shaping weapon, which is a non-artifact.
3. Where do I argue that story can be ignored for mechanics?

I remain disappointed that Fair Folk now can't get better at casting illusions. And start out capable of deceiving all but the most excessively astute mortals.Better? Are you suggesting that one of the great and mighty raksha wasn't already the pinnacle of what it could achieve by merit of its nature?

We have differing views in rarity and knowledge. I feel that it would be widespread knowledge that cold iron rings grant nigh immunity to the fae, and quite easy to get the same. I feel that the supplies needed to be sure of being protected from the Fair Folk's tricks should be hard to get. You seem to differ.An interesting idea, and likely would have been true in the First Age, when there were minimum standards for education and Creation-wide infrastructure. However, in the Second Age you'll be lucky to find more than a handful of literate people in a village, let alone someone with sufficient mechanical knowledge of Fair Folk Charms to know the minimum neccesities of cold iron functionality.

Staff combat is not ranged, and you need a specific weapon type to perform clinching. An adjuration only grants artefact class bonuses in shaping battle, but not in Creation (where it's just mutations). So, again, oaths are now purely useful for Wyld based games, where they once could be worthwhile everywhere (or worth more, at least).Read the paragraph in the sidebar containing the Shaping combat stats for Adjurations, you can substitute them with the stats of equivolent Ring and Cup artifact weapons. As for the benefits of Oaths versus Fantastic Grotesquirie Shell, I'd rather commit motes than burn gossamer, and Fair Folk artifact background makes 1-dot artifacts a dime a dozen.

When every charm that does this one thing (melt minds) is rendered subpar, I feel entitled to expressing disappointment. The great tricksters and diplomats of the fey are now incapable of doing what the fluff says they can.If Fair Folk Abilities and, in the case of Nobles, Attributes weren't already overkill against the Creation-born extras that are so often their victims, I would see your point. Besides, if they were dependant upon overpowered Charms to be competent, they weren't the right raksha for the job in the first place.

IoL and Bastion of the Self continue to suffer dissonance between the mechanics (largely useless against non-Extras) and the fluff ("You can only be killed when standing neither on land nor in the sea. Oh, or if a dragonblood spends 1 mote, or an enlightened mortal jumps over a table to hit you.")See my point from earlier about how 4-5 dot artifacts get additional benefits not normally available in the crunch.

Sure. Spirit Flaying Meditation remains a charm that has not been touched in the errata (unlike all the others with gossamer costs), and the only method I know of to lose Charms or attributes. Which means the topic of losing prerequisites has not been explored. Hence, something that the errata could have clarified.There aren't rules specific to Fair Folk, save for the Birth background. Therefore, the default rules apply, save for the Birth background.

Yes. Evidently, taking one charm to permanently stack Large many times is excessively reasonable, but it simply will not do for a Fair Folk Guide to be uncannily perceptive. Or an Entertainer sculpted out of Wyld stuff over the course of years by a vicious and ugly warlord to be more than humanly beautiful. Or...

People out to get huge attributes could already do so via mutation. This Charm actually set limits, and was very expensive. Now they'll just use cheap mutations. Congratulations!Two iterations of Large is Huge, a third is Gargantuan, and a fourth is an Abomination that I can't remember the name of. And again, those mutations cost gossamer. Not an easy thing for minions to part with, especially not en mass.

Yes: so one can now create proto-Fair Folk with all the Mutation-keyword charms, then forge graces for them. A mechanics hack that just got worse.Ah, wait. Actually looking at Errata this time. No, they refer to regular mutations. Still thinking in pre-Errata mode the first time I answered. Sorry.

None: see above. Eat a village, give your servant Large * 1000. Repeat.See my points about chancel abuse in the story, and the limits on stacking Large. Also, if you have that much gossamer there are better ways to use it.

Not yet a fey beast: so you grant 9 points of mutations, then find a high essence noble (6, say. Easy with God Monster Form) to get a 1-dot behemoth with 21 mutation points. Better than a 5-dot behemoth, and negligible attunement cost.Story>Mechanics. And a 5-dot Behemoth is better than a 21mp Fey Beast any day. 3mp won't make up for the rest of the goodies Deep Wyld Horrors get.

No: Why not? Exalts can pick up mutations from the Wyld. Fey beast status is probably out, but otherwise...The Charm can only target mortals, which I've understood to mean non-Exalted humans.

[Reynard]

The Charm can only target mortals, which I've understood to mean non-Exalted humans.

In one way, it's more specific then that, but it's also more vague. For the purposes of charms, a Mortal is a creature that can't channel it's Essence. Animals, unenlightened Humans, Wyld-mutants, etc.

Awakened Mortals aren't considered Mortal for the purposes of charms.

[The Rose Dragon]

In one way, it's more specific then that, but it's also more vague. For the purposes of charms, a Mortal is a creature that can't channel it's Essence. Animals, unenlightened Humans, Wyld-mutants, etc.

Abyssals also treat ghosts and plasmic creatures as mortals.

[meschlum]

Page 135 of GWM says repeatedly, in various terms, that Behemoths are big. The errata says nothing to contradict this. What basis do you have for this assertion?

The fact that all the sample behemoths have the Large mutation (or upgrades) bought if they are big?

The fact that a 4 dot behemoth (city-sized, apparently) in the hands of a 1 Strength commoner is... rather silly if the actual benefits of size aren't counted in?


Nope: They need to spend 3m, 1wp, and 1g to use the Charm, and then need to succeed on a Dex+MA roll to hit the target. The terrifying beast of legend admittedly has to settle for hitting you, then sucking out your soul in exchange for surrender, but they favor the Sword over the Cup so it's more fitting for their style than a draining caress.

And how does it suck the soul out? How does it spit flames, as is required of most critters? How does it shrug off potent blows? By not being a behemoth.


1. You're ignoring the fact that the Way Grace can only be gained through a specific Unshaped, and by the same token Chancels.
2. One can get the same effect with any Evocation Charm and the Extras shaping weapon, which is a non-artifact.
3. Where do I argue that story can be ignored for mechanics?

1) Artefact 1. One. As I said, this thing breaks the setting to me. You seem to agree, since you're arguing it shouldn't be used.

2) Evocation is expensive. And won't let you move mortal armies, hundreds of Fair Folk lords, a spare mountain or two, respire motes and warp time while in Creation... for a 1 dot artefact. One.

3) Imposition of Law. All the mind melting charms. Bastion of the Self. Illusions created by a grandmaster being as fragile and easy to pierce as those cast by a mindless Warrior with Int 0.



Better? Are you suggesting that one of the great and mighty raksha wasn't already the pinnacle of what it could achieve by merit of its nature?

Yes. Yes I am. Because those annoying Primordials invented time, and now one can actually learn things. Yet knowing everything about a foe does not help deceive them in the slightest. Understanding the inner workings of essence and the wyld does not help weaving deceptions in the least. A mindless, selfless Ring forged automaton can create an illusory meal as refined as what could be evoked by a lord who spent centuries experimenting with mortal tastes.


An interesting idea, and likely would have been true in the First Age, when there were minimum standards for education and Creation-wide infrastructure. However, in the Second Age you'll be lucky to find more than a handful of literate people in a village, let alone someone with sufficient mechanical knowledge of Fair Folk Charms to know the minimum neccesities of cold iron functionality.

As I said, we disagree on rarity and knowledge. And making it so that a cold iron ring is enough to shut down everything makes cold iron much easier to use. I can justify the rarity of cold iron shields and goggles to myself, but half inch long slivers of metal?


Read the paragraph in the sidebar containing the Shaping combat stats for Adjurations, you can substitute them with the stats of equivolent Ring and Cup artifact weapons. As for the benefits of Oaths versus Fantastic Grotesquirie Shell, I'd rather commit motes than burn gossamer, and Fair Folk artifact background makes 1-dot artifacts a dime a dozen.

Missed that. Still doesn't help in Creation.

1 dot Oaths remain better than higher dots for Creation, though. And gossamer is now extremely cheap, and motes are still extremely rare. Hence, Oaths are bad.

Incidentally, can one commit motes from the bonus feeding pool? (which never expends, anyway, since it's based on Heart, so it could go from 15 to 20. Wow.) Another thing that could have been in the errata, since they added the thing!

Why Gossamer is Cheap: Revised Feeding charms. A single mortal is worth 10 gossamer (4 Willpower, 6 total virtues). Or just 6 gossamer to a commoner (eating only one virtue).

Consider a village. 100 gossamer = 3 families. 1000 gossamer...


If Fair Folk Abilities and, in the case of Nobles, Attributes weren't already overkill against the Creation-born extras that are so often their victims, I would see your point. Besides, if they were dependant upon overpowered Charms to be competent, they weren't the right raksha for the job in the first place.

So Diplomat Fair Folk are reduced to being very good, mundane talkers. While Sword Fair Folk are otherworldly engines of destruction. A master diplomat takes dozens of long ticks to maybe convince mortals to do what he wants, if they don't just attack or run away. A master warrior?

I am disappointed.


See my point from earlier about how 4-5 dot artifacts get additional benefits not normally available in the crunch.

And this relates to IoL and Bastion of the Self how?


There aren't rules specific to Fair Folk, save for the Birth background. Therefore, the default rules apply, save for the Birth background.

And there are no rules for losing Charms.


Two iterations of Large is Huge, a third is Gargantuan, and a fourth is an Abomination that I can't remember the name of. And again, those mutations cost gossamer. Not an easy thing for minions to part with, especially not en mass.

Eat a village. See above.

Large: gain Strength and Stamina, and Health levels. Costs 1 mp. Stacks (to a point, sure).

Hero Form: do not gain Health levels. Do not stack. Costs 2 mp.



Ah, wait. Actually looking at Errata this time. No, they refer to regular mutations. Still thinking in pre-Errata mode the first time I answered. Sorry.

Concur. What about permanent mutation charms, though? Is there a reason for Racing Dragon Speed to be unaccessible to mutated servants?

Again, disappointment.


See my points about chancel abuse in the story, and the limits on stacking Large. Also, if you have that much gossamer there are better ways to use it.

You have that much gossamer. Might as well use it. Pre-errata, you were limted to successes, so there was a finite extent to much your minions could be mutated.

Again, disappointment - something that was internally limited and is now blown wide open.


Story>Mechanics. And a 5-dot Behemoth is better than a 21mp Fey Beast any day. 3mp won't make up for the rest of the goodies Deep Wyld Horrors get.

For Sword combat, sure. I can commit to 15 of those Fey Beasts for the price of one 5 dot behemoth. Guess which is more terrifying and useful in Creation?

But anyway, the point here is that the possibility of stacking the Charm, or removing mutations, are not in the errata. And should be.

So I'm disappointed. Again.


The Charm can only target mortals, which I've understood to mean non-Exalted humans.

And is quite open ended, as seen by the following comments. Plus, Essence Channeler does weird stuff. Again. Though since it isn't a Fair Folk feature, I can't claim disappointment on that front.

[Ganurath]

The fact that all the sample behemoths have the Large mutation (or upgrades) bought if they are big?Not big. Bigger. Note that the Large expansions scale up the higher the dots in artifact.

The fact that a 4 dot behemoth (city-sized, apparently) in the hands of a 1 Strength commoner is... rather silly if the actual benefits of size aren't counted in?Just as a noble raksha can have a meager frame and the strength to shatter palaces with a punch, a behemoth with a meager handler wouldn't be able to topple a wagon with a finger the size of a tree. Physical laws are secondary to the narrative nature of the raksha, and the same reasoning applies to their works.

1) Artefact 1. One. As I said, this thing breaks the setting to me. You seem to agree, since you're arguing it shouldn't be used.The Crystal of Kuan is also a one-dot artifact, but is one-of-a-kind and lost to Creation. Your argument that they're broken is because they're accessable, but the moment you consider the fluff you realize that they aren't as accessable as their artifact rating indicates.

2) Evocation is expensive. And won't let you move mortal armies, hundreds of Fair Folk lords, a spare mountain or two, respire motes and warp time while in Creation... for a 1 dot artefact. One.A single use of [Adjective] Evocation can turn the Extras shaping weapon into a tangible, genuine army in Creation. Since it's a single possession, this entire army can be tucked into Elsewhere and taken back out again, at the cost of a single mote per use. The same could arguably done with the mountains, if they're definitively the raksha's property. A chancel couldn't move hundreds of Fair Folk lords either, since that would require organizing hundreds of Fair Folk within the confines of a few waypoints. All of the above paragraph is pointless, however, as both possibilities make for a boring story.

3) Imposition of Law. All the mind melting charms. Bastion of the Self. Illusions created by a grandmaster being as fragile and easy to pierce as those cast by a mindless Warrior with Int 0.I should hope that the Imposition of Law would be weak in the hands of beings of Pure Chaos. Fair Folk using Charms to mindscrew is a giant tautology: Fair Folk screw with minds just by existing! Bastion of the Self, while not directly triggering it, is thematically hazardous when considering Stasis. A mindless Warrior wouldn't cast any sort of illusions save at the behest of a master who held his Heart, but more to the point the surmountable Charms can't be improved upon because that's a static solution: This won't work? I'll get better at it until it does! Problem solved in the most boring and tedious way imaginable!

Because those annoying Primordials invented time,Well, now that's just being silly. Time came into being when the shinma Advaita Iraivan seperated one moment from the next, well before the hated Primordials cut open that weeping sore called Creation.

As I said, we disagree on rarity and knowledge. And making it so that a cold iron ring is enough to shut down everything makes cold iron much easier to use. I can justify the rarity of cold iron shields and goggles to myself, but half inch long slivers of metal?I wasn't arguing rarity and knowledge, I was arguing rarity of knowledge. I imagine most people that know cold iron works don't understand beyond "cold iron isbad for Fae." On top of that, there's maintainence to consider.

Incidentally, can one commit motes from the bonus feeding pool? (which never expends, anyway, since it's based on Heart, so it could go from 15 to 20. Wow.) Another thing that could have been in the errata, since they added the thing!Doesn't say you can't, it clarifies other restrictions, I'd assume that you can.

Why Gossamer is Cheap: Revised Feeding charms. A single mortal is worth 10 gossamer (4 Willpower, 6 total virtues). Or just 6 gossamer to a commoner (eating only one virtue).Don't forget that the revised feeding Charms are much more limited on how often you can use them.

So Diplomat Fair Folk are reduced to being very good, mundane talkers.Oh, no. The Diplomats still have their tricks and traps, they just aren't in the most obvious locations. Elegant Muse Attitude springs to mind, along with the clout of a throng of evoked and/or permanent minions. Social mass combat, anyone?

And this relates to IoL and Bastion of the Self how?The thing about not being killed in day or night and all that fun stuff was on a five-dot artifact, an additional perk beyond the base nature of the mechanics.

Large: gain Strength and Stamina, and Health levels. Costs 1 mp. Stacks (to a point, sure).

Hero Form: do not gain Health levels. Do not stack. Costs 2 mp.I bolded the parts that are the same as pre-Errata. Is it still the Errata you're taking issue with at this point?

Concur. What about permanent mutation charms, though? Is there a reason for Racing Dragon Speed to be unaccessible to mutated servants?So one can't create proto-Fair Folk with all the Mutation-keyword charms, then forge Graces for them; a mechanics hack that just got worse.

You have that much gossamer. Might as well use it. Pre-errata, you were limted to successes, so there was a finite extent to much your minions could be mutated.If you have that much gossamer, there are better ways to use it! If you're getting it through eating villages, you're also gaining motes, which means that you can just as easily shape and evoke a horde of minions, which is much more practical and much less vulnerable than a single minion that succumbs to a Gem of Sleep and a pretty face.

For Sword combat, sure. I can commit to 15 of those Fey Beasts for the price of one 5 dot behemoth. Guess which is more terrifying and useful in Creation?Considering that each attunement to a behemoth takes several hours of care a day to maintain? The Deep Wyld Horror wins, hands down.

But anyway, the point here is that the possibility of stacking the Charm, or removing mutations, are not in the errata. And should be.

So I'm disappointed. Again.Nothing says you can't stack the Charm, there's no reason thematically why you shouldn't be able to, so I'd say you can. Nothing says that you can remove mutations, Fair Folk wouldn't have any reason to, so I'd say you can't. If someone else were STing a game, they could make their own judgement call. One of the wonderful things about Exalted, especially Fair Folk, is that things are not set in stone.

[Xefas]

Speculative stats for Rose's Behemoth Sword:

Spd 6, Acc -2, +20L/5, Def -2, Rate 1, Min: Str 6, Attune 10, Tags: 2, O, P, R

This sword is not, in truth, an artifact of any kind, but rather a Behemoth in sword form. Consequently, it is not bought with dots of the Artifact background, nor may similar items be crafted. Instead, a wielder might attain one as a 3-dot Familiar, though they gain no other benefits a familiar would give. The attunement cost is more an approximation of the Behemoth feeding from the wielder's essence reservoir to prevent calcification.

The sword itself is massive in size, dwarfing even Grand Daiklaves in size with a blade just over 12 feet in length. It possesses the following unique powers, which may be activated as a Reflexive action for the cost listed in parenthesis by its name whenever the wielder makes an attack with it.

Deluge of Never-ending Spite (3m, 1wp) - By invoking the name of the 8th Shinma, who is at once unmodified, but by its plainness, defines errata, the wielder may engorge a target thread within (Essence) yards with bickering walls of text. This is a perfect effect which, despite a Storyteller being fully within their power to use a given section of errata or choose not to do so by their own preference, is unblockable. The thread will remain so engorged for (Essence) days, although the wielder has the option to commit the spent motes in order to prolong its punishment.

[meschlum]

Not big. Bigger. Note that the Large expansions scale up the higher the dots in artifact.

And those size increases are paid for. If you create a behemoth without the size increases, there is no reason for them to be larger.

Eh. Differing viewpoints, irrelevant to the initial question.


Just as a noble raksha can have a meager frame and the strength to shatter palaces with a punch, a behemoth with a meager handler wouldn't be able to topple a wagon with a finger the size of a tree. Physical laws are secondary to the narrative nature of the raksha, and the same reasoning applies to their works.

And you're defining every potent Sword weapon as being massively large. Stormbringer. Excalibur. The Lazy Gun. All these are world shaking weapons, most are sentient, and all of them are sword sized or less.


The Crystal of Kuan is also a one-dot artifact, but is one-of-a-kind and lost to Creation. Your argument that they're broken is because they're accessable, but the moment you consider the fluff you realize that they aren't as accessable as their artifact rating indicates.

So you're saying that you don't use chancels. Welcome to my world.


A single use of [Adjective] Evocation can turn the Extras shaping weapon into a tangible, genuine army in Creation. Since it's a single possession, this entire army can be tucked into Elsewhere and taken back out again, at the cost of a single mote per use. The same could arguably done with the mountains, if they're definitively the raksha's property. A chancel couldn't move hundreds of Fair Folk lords either, since that would require organizing hundreds of Fair Folk within the confines of a few waypoints. All of the above paragraph is pointless, however, as both possibilities make for a boring story.

So you're not using Chancels. Welcome to my world.


I should hope that the Imposition of Law would be weak in the hands of beings of Pure Chaos. Fair Folk using Charms to mindscrew is a giant tautology: Fair Folk screw with minds just by existing! Bastion of the Self, while not directly triggering it, is thematically hazardous when considering Stasis. A mindless Warrior wouldn't cast any sort of illusions save at the behest of a master who held his Heart, but more to the point the surmountable Charms can't be improved upon because that's a static solution: This won't work? I'll get better at it until it does! Problem solved in the most boring and tedious way imaginable!

We differ. I will note that Appearance has just become the Ultimate Fair Folk Attribute, since it affects MDVs.

In any case, I don't like the fixed MDV resistance, and feel justified. It seems your proposed solution is to use new, custom Charms instead of the ones that, to me, should work by fluff - which is another statement that the errata isn't satisfactory in my eyes.


Well, now that's just being silly. Time came into being when the shinma Advaita Iraivan seperated one moment from the next, well before the hated Primordials cut open that weeping sore called Creation.

Sure.


I wasn't arguing rarity and knowledge, I was arguing rarity of knowledge. I imagine most people that know cold iron works don't understand beyond "cold iron isbad for Fae." On top of that, there's maintainence to consider.

You don't need to know anything beyond "cold iron is bad for Fae" with the new setup. Also, we may have diverging understanding of what cold iron is - my knowledge of same does not involve any maintenance (cold forged iron is iron shaped without a forge, via lots of sweat and hammering. Once it's made, it's 'just' another chunk of metal, albeit with more impurities and weight).



Doesn't say you can't, it clarifies other restrictions, I'd assume that you can.

So that's where all my commited motes will come from - the pool of motes that's hard to refill and has a fixed size.


Don't forget that the revised feeding Charms are much more limited on how often you can use them.

True. Once per scene. So you 'only' gain, what, 15 gossamer per hour by spending 20 minutes on each target? For each Fair Folk, so pet Entertainers are even more useful.


Oh, no. The Diplomats still have their tricks and traps, they just aren't in the most obvious locations. Elegant Muse Attitude springs to mind, along with the clout of a throng of evoked and/or permanent minions. Social mass combat, anyone?

Ah. So +2/3 dice (Essence) at 1 mote per die (out of a pool of 20/30 maximum, less with attunements, long term charms, etc.) is vastly better than telling exalts they have lost their powers and having them accept it? To go by the core book, of course.

Color me convinced.

And having new tricks and traps is fine. Having them in completely different and unrelated Charm trees (Elegant Muse Attitude is not a staff charm), and making the old tricks and traps almost worthless is not.

Which is why I'm disappointed.


The thing about not being killed in day or night and all that fun stuff was on a five-dot artifact, an additional perk beyond the base nature of the mechanics.

It was an oath - so it was a mutation (pre-errata). The immortality effect was fluff, working on shaping only. Meaning that in Creation, you still were killed by J. Random Heroic Mortal who 'lunged violently' rather than 'attacked'.

A mutation, pre-errata, meant that you had to define the specifics of how the power worked (still do). So you could (and can) state that your 3 dot Oath granting Bastion of the Self (Heart) rendered you immune to all harm so long as you have not kissed a red-haired woman during a lunar eclipse. You also could (and now can't) make that a fundamental part of your story (permanent mutation) so that you'd only die that way.

It didn't, and doesn't, work, of course - outside of the Wyld, anyway.


I bolded the parts that are the same as pre-Errata. Is it still the Errata you're taking issue with at this point?

Yup. Because Glorious Hero form could stack, which made it marginally better in extreme outlier cases. Now it can't, so it isn't.


So one can't create proto-Fair Folk with all the Mutation-keyword charms, then forge Graces for them; a mechanics hack that just got worse.

Pre-errata, it was difficult to add many mutations to a Shape Forged Servant (maximum of Socialize, so 7, costing 1 gossamer each). You had more options, though. Now... you lose the charms, but gain every other mutation in the books. I'm disappointed.

I also don't see why some of the formerly permanent charms (Racing Dragon Speed, Glorious Hero Form, Surpassing Excellence) were kept as charms, rather than the mutations they were. Minor issue.


If you have that much gossamer, there are better ways to use it! If you're getting it through eating villages, you're also gaining motes, which means that you can just as easily shape and evoke a horde of minions, which is much more practical and much less vulnerable than a single minion that succumbs to a Gem of Sleep and a pretty face.

And goes against the story, but never mind that.

The point is that if you're eating villages (and you're now strongly encouraged to, since it's very rewarding) you easily have hundreds of gossamer (down from thousands due to refresh times). Evoking a horde of minions costs 1 gossamer. You still have hundreds. Again, may as well use it.


Considering that each attunement to a behemoth takes several hours of care a day to maintain? The Deep Wyld Horror wins, hands down.

In the Wyld, sure (again). Outside, the narrative potential of converting people into mutated beasts of your design is huge, especially for a diplomat. The narrative potential of a massive engine of destruction... less so.

Viewpoints.


Nothing says you can't stack the Charm, there's no reason thematically why you shouldn't be able to, so I'd say you can. Nothing says that you can remove mutations, Fair Folk wouldn't have any reason to, so I'd say you can't. If someone else were STing a game, they could make their own judgement call. One of the wonderful things about Exalted, especially Fair Folk, is that things are not set in stone.

Lots of reasons to remove mutations.

You just cursed the local prince with a plethora of debilities, and now he's finally come over to thinking your way. Might as well reward him!

Unshaped Sword Transformation can remake Fey Beasts. Why not remake your lesser mutated toys? Turn them into perfect spies, broken and loyal to you but otherwise seemingly the same as before?

You've been forced by a rather powerful Eclipse to lead his party safely through the Wyld. So that they are not consumed by maelstroms of destruction (and the Eclipse doesn't destroy you in turn), you give them Wyld Adaptation (the only way I can find to protect people from the Wyld). Once they are done, the Eclipse insists his retinue be restored.


Anyway, the need for judgement calls on the stuff that (to me) is obvious problem material contributes to my disappointment in the errata. These things could have been clarified. They were not, and were made more obscure or worse in some cases. So I'm disappointed.


And I view Xefas' weapon as the best offered yet, so I'll stop there. We both enjoy Fair Folk - what more need be said?

[Ganurath]

Ah, yes, the sword that started the discussion. I suppose that after spurning the original concept, I should try to introduce something that's true to the spirit of the beast. I'm leaving the elements that apply in Creation a bit fuzzy, to give TRD some flexibility.

Once, there was an Anarch of extraordinary skill who sought to bring down an entire Court singlehanded. However, cunning and insight stayed his hand as he knew that the nobles who ruled the Court were among the worthiest of foes. Their only vulnerability was the Sword, but the fighting would be lengthy enough that tending to a behemoth without an aide to share the victory with would be impossible, and no meer work of gossamer would be worthy of him. Knowing that Adjurations could sometimes function in a similar manner to Oneiromancies and Treasures in Shaping combat, the Anarch decided to try to forge a Treasure that could function as a Behemoth. He succeeded beyond his wildest imagination.

Sword of Fangs - Artifact ●●●● - Attune 12m
In the Wyld: The Sword of Fangs uses the statistics of a Deep Wyld Horror when used as a Shaping Weapon, and may be used to make and parry attacks of either the Ring or Sword Graces. Although the Anarch has never learned this, the weapon allows Sword shaping attacks and parries even for those who lack a Sword Grace.

In Creation: After destroying the Heart Graces of most of the Court, one noble survivor fled from the Middlemarches into hated Creation. Upon taking the weapon into Creation, the Anarch learned it to be as a blade with a will of its own. The Sword of Fangs uses the stats of a Grand Daiklave with -1 Speed and +1 Accuracy, thanks to the feral eagerness of the weapon. It also has a property similar to that of Hellforged Weapons, granting it Sapience from ● to ●●●● (TRD's call) with an Urge to [as TRD sees fit]. Rather than granting Charm use outright, the weapon provides triple its Sapience in Mutation points, at least one of which must go to the Bestial Assumption for the weapon itself. This power comes at a cost, however: The body of the Sword of Fangs does not bear hearthstone slots.

[Rockphed]

Speculative stats for Rose's Behemoth Sword:

Spd 6, Acc -2, +20L/5, Def -2, Rate 1, Min: Str 6, Attune 10, Tags: 2, O, P, R

This sword is not, in truth, an artifact of any kind, but rather a Behemoth in sword form. Consequently, it is not bought with dots of the Artifact background, nor may similar items be crafted. Instead, a wielder might attain one as a 3-dot Familiar, though they gain no other benefits a familiar would give. The attunement cost is more an approximation of the Behemoth feeding from the wielder's essence reservoir to prevent calcification.

The sword itself is massive in size, dwarfing even Grand Daiklaves in size with a blade just over 12 feet in length. It possesses the following unique powers, which may be activated as a Reflexive action for the cost listed in parenthesis by its name whenever the wielder makes an attack with it.

Deluge of Never-ending Spite (3m, 1wp) - By invoking the name of the 8th Shinma, who is at once unmodified, but by its plainness, defines errata, the wielder may engorge a target thread within (Essence) yards with bickering walls of text. This is a perfect effect which, despite a Storyteller being fully within their power to use a given section of errata or choose not to do so by their own preference, is unblockable. The thread will remain so engorged for (Essence) days, although the wielder has the option to commit the spent motes in order to prolong its punishment.

And thus we see that proper awesome properly applied destroys argument. How is a fae best dispatched in exalted anyway? I assume that whacking them upside the head with sufficient force will do the trick, but I hope there is some other way that will render them incapacitated en masse.

[Rhyvurg]

This is what happens when you try to apply rules to something that's supposed to be pure chaos. I never got the point of making almost an entire new system for Fair Folk, in the spirit of the Wyld it always felt better just to make crap up and add on anything I thought they needed.

[Mattarias, King.]

...Uhm, speaking of swords, my ST and I finally came up with solid stats for mine. Would anyone care to review them? :smallconfused:

Burning Tempest
Artifact ****
Speed: 4 Defense: 2 Accuracy: 3 damage: 16L Rate: 5 O, P. Attune: 10

This ornate double-edged red jade daiklaive is known instantly as a weapon of fire. Stylized flametongue script runs down its two blades, towards a hilt fashioned in the shape of phoenix wings. A single Hearthstone setting lies in the connection between blades and hilt.

Burning tempest gives its wielder use of these powers:

Flare Jump: Allows instant teleportation through fires up to (Essencex10) yards apart if the wielder has movement remaining upon reaching the fire, to or within a fire no smaller than a blazing torch. If the character exits within (essencex5) yards of an enemy, he may roll to reestablish surprise, which is resisted with a penalty equal to the wielder's essence. A character emerging from a fire suffers a -2 penalty to DV, and may make a single attack, unsupplemented by any charms.

Rising Phoenix, Dying Shadows: Forged and blazing in holy fire, Burning Tempest deals aggravated damage to creatures of the Wyld. In addition, at the cost of 4 motes, its wielder may unleash a blazing attack that travels a maximum of (essence x7) yards, cutting through everything, friend, foe and cover, in its path. This attack is unblockable and undodgeable, though can be protected against with a perfect defense (in the case of a perfect parry, it ceases to move), it has an attack pool of (Essence+Dexterity+Accuracy of Weapon+Melee) and deals lethal damage, before adding attack successes, equal to (Essence+Melee+Strength).

Its true wielder may summon the sword (As per Call the Blade), as well as draw and sheath it reflexively.

Sorry for the awkward phrasing in some places. We were bouncing a text file back and forth.

[golentan]

Okey-dokey. I'd like to get some advice here.

Short story: my Infernal's motivation involves the creation of behemoths. Not a behemoth, a lot of behemoths. He's going to be doing experiments that cross lines man was not meant yada yada for the better part of a decade in pursuit of this, but I'd like it to culminate in a custom sorcerous charm to finalize his descent and declare his position in the world unambiguously as his own creature to be feared by ALL who oppose him.

Unfortunately, I have zero experience with homebrewing stuff. None-zip-zilch. What I have so far is: In Adversity Born
Cost: 50m committed, 1wp, 1ahl; Mins Essence 4? 6?; Type: Simple (speed 5 in long ticks)
Keywords: Sorcerous, Desecration, Heretical, Obvious, Blasphemy
Duration: One Week
Prerequisite Charms: Sand-Scoured Perfection, Sea Dissolves Herself
Recalling his time in his own chrysalis and the lessons of the yozis, the warlock cuts his hand while making the Mudra of Rebirth. Pouring the resulting ichor over a mortal creature, he imbues it with his primordial essence. For one week, the nascent behemoth grows in its cocoon, tormented by horrors beyond imagining. Should it survive this ordeal, the cocoon cracks at midnight of the last day, releasing the new being upon the world. Maddened by its torments, it ungratefully rejects the gift bestowed upon it by the warlock. It gains a negative intimacy towards him that cannot be removed in any way for at least a month.

In short, I want it to be a potentially lethal transformation, and certainly traumatic (I was thinking rolls to prevent death by loss of permanent willpower), and I'd prefer to give concrete rules for behemoth construction based on an existing creature rather than just handwaving it. I'd also like it to be balanced, hence weakening yourself substantially for a week and having to win the creature over again after surviving it for a month or several.

And... I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew. Any advice?

[Rikandur Azebol]

Maybe each week make Craft(Genesis) check with difficulty depending on basic subject's Stamina + Willpower (those broken in earlier would resist it less)/2 where sucesses are accumulated for the grand-monster design (You need amount equal to normal Craft [Genesis] with bio-artifact N/A to create what You intended) ? Subject suffers from normal thirst and starvation rules, liquids in the cocoon providing air for the victim. Each week subject could try Stamina+Resisstance to resist burning Kimbery/Cecelyne essence running amok in it's systems sucess granting it 1lhl due to bodily warping, with difficulty based on Exalt's Essence, while lack of sucess gives it random mutation of ST choice depending on how much subject missed the treshold. Botch gives subject sudden influx of Wyld and causes cocoon to explode, tainting surroundings.

In short, I propose adaptation for rules for Wyld mutations for the victim to resist and standard Craft(Genesis) rules for Your behemoth creating thingy. But with weekly interwals. And treat each week as scene building negative intimacy towards your guy.:smallamused:

[Rikandur Azebol]

http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=4&ti=24630&date=1291148100

So You just know. I started Exalted game out there.

[Rainmar]

It's advertisment time!

http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=4&ti=24606&date=1290807146

Here is my game which features DragonKings and their struggle to take back Rathess.

[golentan]

Okay, new favorite Charm of Mass Destruction: World Grinding Sandstorm Devastation. It is a nuke. Literally. Massive shockwave + blast + radiation (can mutate people). And it can be set off in almost any city on the planet with the purchase of Withered Soul Wastes.

Boom. Hehehe...

Have I mentioned how much I'm loving broken winged crane? Because I'm totally loving broken winged crane.

[Reynard]

Anyone looking for a laugh should read Scroll of Exalts.

It's possible to build a starting character that could take on the entire Iconic Solar Circle at once, and win, with very little charm use.

And they won't need to keep a PD in reserve, either. We're talking killing the whole bunch of them in 2, maybe 3 actions.

[Kylarra]

Anyone looking for a laugh should read Scroll of Exalts.

It's possible to build a starting character that could take on the entire Iconic Solar Circle at once, and win, with very little charm use.

And they won't need to keep a PD in reserve, either. We're talking killing the whole bunch of them in 2, maybe 3 actions.I think that's sort of just generally true for pregenerated characters with any real optimization curve though. Exalted just tends to have weirder ones.

[The Rose Dragon]

I think that's sort of just generally true for pregenerated characters with any real optimization curve though. Exalted just tends to have weirder ones.

But seriously, three out of five of them have Willpower 5. Three Exalts can be described as "diffident and a little shy". One of them is Panther, for crying out loud. Two of them don't have any Excellencies. Again, one of them is Panther. At least he is the only one with a semi-perfect defense - except it is Iron Skin Concentration and doesn't defend against non-damage effects. And if you're too lazy to actually fight them, don't worry: only one of them actually has Integrity-Protecting Prana. Just shape them out of existence.

I think the problem is that the old chargen rules were terrible (the new ones are also terrible, but not quite as much as the old ones), and it is nearly impossible to create a solid character without any additions.

[Reynard]

I think that's sort of just generally true for pregenerated characters with any real optimization curve though. Exalted just tends to have weirder ones.

I'm not talking high optimisation, though. The DB in one of the PbPs I'm playing in, made by a complete newb (it's his first character), could take them down with a bit of effort.

[Kyeudo]

I think the problem is that the old chargen rules were terrible (the new ones are also terrible, but not quite as much as the old ones), and it is nearly impossible to create a solid character without any additions.

What was (and is) wrong with the character creation rules? I've asked a few people over on the KoC boards, but nobody seems to have an honest clue as to what the new rules were intended to fix.

[horngeek]

Apparently, doesn't give you enough to purchase sufficient defenses AND what else you want.

[The Rose Dragon]

What was (and is) wrong with the character creation rules? I've asked a few people over on the KoC boards, but nobody seems to have an honest clue as to what the new rules were intended to fix.

Here's what you need to be competitive in Exalted, in both forms of combat: an Excellency for offense, Infinite (Offensive Ability) Mastery, a physical perfect defense (which has at least one prerequisite), Elusive Dream Defense, a shaping defense and a way to react to unexpected attacks (flurry-breakers are nice, but optional). That's 8 of your 10 starting Charms, not to mention Infinite Ability Mastery has an Essence 3 prerequisite, which you pay 7 bonus points for in the most inefficient use of bonus points. Also, you have to get 4 dots in your defensive ability, offensive ability and Integrity. Oh, and only Solars and Abyssals actually get these so easily. Anyone else has to pay through the nose to get a basic way of keeping themselves alive. And if you don't favor Dodge, Integrity and an offensive ability, you're basically screwed the moment someone rolls Join Battle. Oh, and good luck playing someone other than a sociopath or someone who is emotionally wrecked, because the importance of Willpower means that having a balanced Virtue distribution used to mean suicide. At this point, you still don't have a combo, so you can't actually attack and defend at the same time - you want to do that, you need to pay more bonus points. You want to actually play someone who doesn't start out as a dedicated warrior? Enjoy your 10 Charms then, and hope your opponents don't target you with a goremaul or permanently shape you into a frog.

I sound bitter, because I am bitter. Basically, Exalted combat rewards (and indeed, almost requires) a very specific kind of build that is not cheap, and three fourths of the rules are about combat. And the non-combat rules are mostly a joke or don't exist.

And I still count Exalted as my fourth favorite game. Fascinating, innit?

[Delusion]

Black treatise has a spell (whose name I can't remember) that says that it can be dodged but doesn't have any mention about attack roll. How is that supposed to work?

[tonberrian]

Black treatise has a spell (whose name I can't remember) that says that it can be dodged but doesn't have any mention about attack roll. How is that supposed to work?

Magic.

More useful answer: wait for the Sorcery errata. Should be relatively soon.

[Ganurath]

Massive rant goes here.A valid point, in a world where every opponent is made of cheese. Such makes for a boring story, almost as much as your ST throwing something at you that you can't defend against. If an ST puts making an abomination of crunch ahead of telling the story, you aren't playing a proper game of Exalted.