General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course.

[Kyeudo]

Here's what you need to be competitive in Exalted, in both forms of combat: an Excellency for offense, Infinite (Offensive Ability) Mastery, a physical perfect defense (which has at least one prerequisite), Elusive Dream Defense, a shaping defense and a way to react to unexpected attacks (flurry-breakers are nice, but optional). That's 8 of your 10 starting Charms, not to mention Infinite Ability Mastery has an Essence 3 prerequisite, which you pay 7 bonus points for in the most inefficient use of bonus points.


Why Elusive Dream Defense? I don't recall there being that many perfect social attacks or mind-control effects.

And can't Integrity-Protecting Prana be put off until you get the XP for it? Not everyone immediately goes Lunar-hunting in the Wyld or clashes with the Fair Folk.



Oh, and good luck playing someone other than a sociopath or someone who is emotionally wrecked, because the importance of Willpower means that having a balanced Virtue distribution used to mean suicide.


That was the only one thing that I really understood about the change to Willpower. Making it so that optimizing your Virtues wasn't necessary was a good idea.



And I still count Exalted as my fourth favorite game. Fascinating, innit?

Na, the setting is just that awesome.

[The Rose Dragon]

A valid point, in a world where every opponent is made of cheese. Such makes for a boring story, almost as much as your ST throwing something at you that you can't defend against. If an ST puts making an abomination of crunch ahead of telling the story, you aren't playing a proper game of Exalted.

He doesn't have to, is the point. It is too easy to inadvertently kill Exalts, as I discovered very early, when I had to lie about the result of a dice roll to keep a PC alive. A lot of offensive powers, for example are designed to be very powerful and lethal because they are Shaping and PCs are supposed to be able to defend against shaping attacks easily. If you don't have a shaping defense, you're out of luck against that massive effect. A lot of seemingly innocuous attacks can turn out to be one-shot kills, and you need to be aware of this to mitigate the hyperlethality effect.

If a player who knows of this effect asks me whether they need to prepare for the hyperlethality, I'll say do whatever you want, because I tend to heavily play down the actual mechanics of the game to fit the characters. A lot of STs I know don't. And frankly, if the system worked properly, they wouldn't have to.

[Indon]

Here's what you need to be competitive in Exalted, in both forms of combat:

Fresh Exalts aren't very strong. I don't see what's wrong with this, or surprising about it - the Gold Faction runs training camps for Solars because fresh Solars are vulnerable to more experienced exalts, even Dragon-Blooded.

I've never had a power curve problem in the Exalted games I've run.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallbiggrin: In the spirit of fun, it's Mattarias' Almost-Weekly Exalted Report! :smalltongue:

We found the plot, and proceeded on a seven month-long trip to the north-east corner of creation, where we have to go into this stabilized place in the Wyld and fix up the Nail of Creation that is holding the world.. There, I guess. Pretty sure it's something the ST made up, but I'm cool with it.

Anyways, on our way, we were ambushed by some raptor cats, where I botched my Join Battle roll because I was busy telling the party of my GLORIOUS EXPLOITS wherein I totally took out 200 Sidereals at once. :smalltongue:

After that little tussle, we fast-fowarded to where we needed to be, and met a housecat that jumped through the mists of the Wyld and ended up turning into a tiny gryphon (Griffin? Bah.). Our Abyssal took it in as a pet and gained resonance for it. Heh.

The Alchemical, still freaked out by how.. Organic everything is, was not amused when the Lunar stuck his arm into the Wyld mists and went "See this? Don't do this." :smallbiggrin:

Fast-fowarding a bit, we are currently under siege by the forces of the Wyld, all of us having very, very little essence remaining. It was there the session ended. Can't wait to see what happens next.

:smalltongue: Sorry if you don't care, I just thought someone'd find it amusing.

..As a sidenote, anyone mind seeing if this weapon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9841400&postcount=735) is balanced? :smallconfused:

[Fortuna]

I've been re-reading Keychain, and just got to the fight with Nova. Now I'm wondering: how can I best go about doing ridiculous amounts of technogabble in reasonable amounts of time? 'Cause I like technogabble.

[Jokasti]

I've been re-reading Keychain, and just got to the fight with Nova. Now I'm wondering: how can I best go about doing ridiculous amounts of technogabble in reasonable amounts of time? 'Cause I like technogabble.

Get a science textbook, pick a random word from the glossary and then add some sort of effect to it such as
EVOLUTIONARY MITOTIC SPINDLE ARRAY
NATURAL SELECTION LAZER
TESTICULAR EXPLOSION
Er, you get the idea... Dammit, Anatomy and Physiology Texbook.:smallcool:

[Fortuna]

Get a science textbook, pick a random word from the glossary and then add some sort of effect to it such as
EVOLUTIONARY MITOTIC SPINDLE ARRAY
NATURAL SELECTION LAZER
TESTICULAR EXPLOSION
Er, you get the idea... Dammit, Anatomy and Physiology Texbook.:smallcool:

Once again, I feel the need for a Spock Eyebrow smiley.

I meant how can I have a character able to produce technogabble-worthy effects in a reasonable amount of time (preferably in-combat). I can do technogabble just fine.

[SurlySeraph]

@Random: Wait, do you mean making lots of stuff or saying lots of stuff? If you want to make stuff, Sidereals get an Essence 4 charm called Implicit Construction Methodology that lets you build things really fast. If you want to say stuff, Talking is a Free Action applies in Exalted, too. And long mid-battle speeches are entirely thematically appropriate.

@Mattarias: Speaking as someone who's new to Exalted, it looks reasonable to me, given that you said you're God-Blooded and the rest of the party's Celestial.
Speed 4 and Rate 5 is kinda intense, especially for something that does 16L. I don't know what extra action charms God-Blooded get access to, but ones that work of your weapon's existing rate would be very powerful with that. Jade Hearthstone Bracers or another way of getting the speed down to 3 would make this even more terrifying, letting you make 10 attacks in the time some weapons make 2.
Automatic surprise-reestablishment is good. Is the penalty to the opposed roll external (removes successes) or internal (removes dice from the pool)? At Essence 3 or so an external penalty would be pretty damn powerful against anyone who doesn't have a Charm to negate surprise, which is admittedly really easy to get.
The Blazing Attack is nice, and great for cutting down weak enemies.
Overall it seem like a very good way to let you match up against enemies who have perfect defenses, by making unexpected attacks or forcing them to spend tons of motes if they don't have a flurrybreaker. And any fiery wargodspawn ought to be able to shoot blasts of fire out of his sword. I like it overall, though if you were a Solar I'd say it was overpowered.


He doesn't have to, is the point. It is too easy to inadvertently kill Exalts, as I discovered very early, when I had to lie about the result of a dice roll to keep a PC alive.

Would just banning Grand Goremauls and most of the other ultra-killy weapons help?
In addition, would reducing minimum damage help? It seems to make low amounts of soak (or even high amounts, if you're getting hit with a bunch of attacks in a flurry) kinda pointless.

[Fortuna]

@Random: Wait, do you mean making lots of stuff or saying lots of stuff? If you want to make stuff, Sidereals get an Essence 4 charm called Implicit Construction Methodology that lets you build things really fast. If you want to say stuff, Talking is a Free Action applies in Exalted, too. And long mid-battle speeches are entirely thematically appropriate.

Making, definitely making.
Also, talking isn't a free action, it's a long tick at least :smalltongue:

[Jokasti]

Once again, I feel the need for a Spock Eyebrow smiley.

I meant how can I have a character able to produce technogabble-worthy effects in a reasonable amount of time (preferably in-combat). I can do technogabble just fine.
Ah, well Nova had all those things made ahead of time and Misho seemed to just pick something with a lot of choices up randomly (that Nova had made ahead of time).
I would just say Craft charms? Depends on Exaltation.

[SurlySeraph]

:smalltongue: You make a fair point, though there are some small exceptions I can point to. There's a martial arts style that says you can comment on your opponent's technique as a stunt, and I hardly think that requires a minute-long social attack.

I know there's a rule somewhere about trading in successes to reduce the amount of time something takes, though I can't find it.

Also, I can't find anything that lets you craft in combat (there's a Dragonblooded charm called Stone-Carving Fingers that might work, but you need to take a minute to set it up beforehand), barring clauses in the aforementioned rule that I can't find.

[golentan]

Can't god bloods pick up principle of motion? Anyone who can and doesn't has no business claiming to be combat focused, IMO.

Anyway, talking is a free action. Talking with any mechanical effect on another person is not.

[The Rose Dragon]

Can't god bloods pick up principle of motion? Anyone who can and doesn't has no business claiming to be combat focused, IMO..

At Essence 3, yes, they can. However, it's not as useful to God-blooded as it is to spirits, since they can't use other Charms at the same time like spirits can.

[Fortuna]

I'm looking at building a Lunar (for your game, TRD) and am wondering how best to go about being a combat monster. Relevant changes from core/Lunars: 2 free Excellencies from Caste and Favored, Dawn Appendix rules, additional -0 health levels equal to Essence, 100 xp. I've never done a Lunar before, but they look cool. Thoughts?

[Reynard]

Gift Charms and Fury Charms.

Claws of the Silver Moon (In Dex, IIRC) is a must, as they are better than most artifact weapons from the get go, and get even better over time.

Sadly, the Lunar PD (A dodge) is buried a few charms deep, though there is an Ink Monkeys one (Parry) that I'm not sure on the charm requirements for.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm looking at building a Lunar (for your game, TRD)

[...]

free purchases of OBT to Stamina

No. No. No no no no no no. I hate that rule, and I would never use it in a game.

Also, I just realized I forgot to include Schaefer's chargen rules. Let me go do that.

[Fortuna]

No. No. No no no no no no. I hate that rule, and I would never use it in a game.

Also, I just realized I forgot to include Schaefer's chargen rules. Let me go do that.

Apologies. Misread/misremembered.

[Mattarias, King.]

@Mattarias: Speaking as someone who's new to Exalted, it looks reasonable to me, given that you said you're God-Blooded and the rest of the party's Celestial.
Speed 4 and Rate 5 is kinda intense, especially for something that does 16L. I don't know what extra action charms God-Blooded get access to, but ones that work of your weapon's existing rate would be very powerful with that. Jade Hearthstone Bracers or another way of getting the speed down to 3 would make this even more terrifying, letting you make 10 attacks in the time some weapons make 2.
Automatic surprise-reestablishment is good. Is the penalty to the opposed roll external (removes successes) or internal (removes dice from the pool)? At Essence 3 or so an external penalty would be pretty damn powerful against anyone who doesn't have a Charm to negate surprise, which is admittedly really easy to get.
The Blazing Attack is nice, and great for cutting down weak enemies.
Overall it seem like a very good way to let you match up against enemies who have perfect defenses, by making unexpected attacks or forcing them to spend tons of motes if they don't have a flurrybreaker. And any fiery wargodspawn ought to be able to shoot blasts of fire out of his sword. I like it overall, though if you were a Solar I'd say it was overpowered.


Uhm, alright, thanks. I wasn't really thinking about all that stuff, I just wanted something that was cool and did a lot of damage, son of a fiery war god and all. I dunno about the penalty though. I'll go ask my ST.


Can't god bloods pick up principle of motion? Anyone who can and doesn't has no business claiming to be combat focused, IMO.

Yup, at essence 3. I'm only essence 2. >>; For now. But yeah, like Rose Dragon said, it'll only be really useful when I ascend.

:smalltongue: Yes, ascend. Not exalt.

[golentan]

At Essence 3, yes, they can. However, it's not as useful to God-blooded as it is to spirits, since they can't use other Charms at the same time like spirits can.

But... That's not the point of PomPoming. The point is you have the charm activated well before battle, and when things go south you kick off your no-charm-activation flurry PLUS whatever charms you've got. You never actually use the charm to bank actions in the same action you use the flurry...

[Mattarias, King.]

But... That's not the point of PomPoming. The point is you have the charm activated well before battle, and when things go south you kick off your no-charm-activation flurry PLUS whatever charms you've got. You never actually use the charm to bank actions in the same action you use the flurry...

:smallconfused: Uhh.. I'm.. Gonna hafta reread that charm then.. :smalleek:

Dunno how okay my ST might be with me doing that when I get it.. But if so, that's definitely a goal I should look at after reaching Essence 3...

[Reynard]

:smallconfused: Uhh.. I'm.. Gonna hafta reread that charm then.. :smalleek:

Dunno how okay my ST might be with me doing that when I get it.. But if so, that's definitely a goal I should look at after reaching Essence 3...

Eh, considering it's you only really way of keeping up with the Exalts, and that you have to work with spirit charms, which are pretty sucky... It's not that bad, cheese-wise.

[golentan]

Also, the errata limits the number of actions you can "draw" on a given flurry to your essence, so it's not the "OH GOD ELEVEN ACTION DEATH FLURRY COMING FOR ME!" that it once was.

[Mattarias, King.]

Eh, considering it's you only really way of keeping up with the Exalts, and that you have to work with spirit charms, which are pretty sucky... It's not that bad, cheese-wise.

Good point... :smallredface:


Also, the errata limits the number of actions you can "draw" on a given flurry to your essence, so it's not the "OH GOD ELEVEN ACTION DEATH FLURRY COMING FOR ME!" that it once was.

Oh. :smallconfused: Hm, dang. Well, alright then. Still decent, but more balanced, I suppose.

...On that note, can someone please explain rate and flurry? Because I think my group's been doing actions wrong..

So far, what we understand is that Rate is how many times you can attack with a weapon in a flurry. This makes Rate kind of a useless-type stat, since you can't really make more than one or two attacks without taking pretty sizeable penalties on your attacks and whiffing a lot. Is this how it's supposed to work?

..Oh, and tangentially related, what is the Onslaught Penalty and how does it work? :smallconfused: I know it has something to do with attacking, or rather, being attacked too much..

[Reynard]

So far, what we understand is that Rate is how many times you can attack with a weapon in a flurry. This makes Rate kind of a useless-type stat, since you can't really make more than one or two attacks without taking pretty sizeable penalties on your attacks and whiffing a lot. Is this how it's supposed to work?

Yes.

Rate sucks, unless you're a Fire-Aspect Immaculate.


..Oh, and tangentially related, what is the Onslaught Penalty and how does it work? :smallconfused: I know it has something to do with attacking, or rather, being attacked too much..
Every single time any single person attacks you before your DV refreshes, you DVs drop by one.

So, say someone made a 3-attack flurry against you, at the first attack, you DV would be at full; Second, it'd be at -1; Third would be -2.

If that person managed to attack again beofre you next action, for whatver reason (Most common being that they're a DB with their OP Speed bonus weapons), then his first attack would only have to deal with (your DV-3).

However, if another person jumped in and attacked you at the same time, then your DVs against him would be full.

This is after applying any modifiers from you own actions, of course. Hope that's clear.

[Mattarias, King.]

Yes.

Rate sucks, unless you're a Fire-Aspect Immaculate.


Every single time any single person attacks you before your DV refreshes, you DVs drop by one.

So, say someone made a 3-attack flurry against you, at the first attack, you DV would be at full; Second, it'd be at -1; Third would be -2.

If that person managed to attack again beofre you next action, for whatver reason (Most common being that they're a DB with their OP Speed bonus weapons), then his first attack would only have to deal with (your DV-3).

However, if another person jumped in and attacked you at the same time, then your DVs against him would be full.

This is after applying any modifiers from you own actions, of course. Hope that's clear.

:smallconfused: Oohhh.. Huh. Alright. That makes multiple attacks a lot more attractive. Thank you. So if I decide to completely wail on one guy for an attack, just going all out, his DVs would be in tatters, but only against me, right?

-On that note, do you take the -1 penalty to DV EVERY time you attack in a flurry? I suppose it'd make sense, but just making sure.

[Kyeudo]

:smallconfused: Oohhh.. Huh. Alright. That makes multiple attacks a lot more attractive. Thank you. So if I decide to completely wail on one guy for an attack, just going all out, his DVs would be in tatters, but only against me, right?


Yes. This is why Extra Action Charms are so good and why Flurries are even an option in combat.



-On that note, do you take the -1 penalty to DV EVERY time you attack in a flurry? I suppose it'd make sense, but just making sure.

Yes. This is why normal Flurries are generally a bad idea. It's not that you miss alot, its that your DVs suck afterwards.

[Reynard]

Also, your accuracy pool will be in a similar state to his DV pool.

Reason:

When making a flurry, the number of dice in each attack is reduced by the number of attacks in the flurry + 1 per attack. So:

Shiny McSolar has a raw accuracy pool of 15.

He makes, for example, a 4-attack flurry, a veritable hailstorm of blows.
Here's where things start getting bad for him. The first attack in the flurry would only have 11 dice. The second would have 10, third would have 9, and fourth would only have 8.

However, Burny McFirey is an Immaculate Fire Dragon Stylist. Immaculates using this style get an added bonus, they don't suffer that big penalty to their dice pool.

So, if Burny has a pool of 15 and makes a 4 attack flurry, his pools look like this:

Att1: 15
Att2: 14
Att3: 13
Att4: 12

Even his smallest pool is bigger than Shiny's biggest.

[Mattarias, King.]

Yes. This is why Extra Action Charms are so good and why Flurries are even an option in combat.

:smallconfused: Ooh.. Gotcha. With Extra Action charms, does your DV refresh between each action, or do you hafta wait an actual tick? Because if it does, hooo boy, are those charms GOOD.


Yes. This is why normal Flurries are generally a bad idea. It's not that you miss alot, its that your DVs suck afterwards.

:smallannoyed: Mm.. Good point. Don't want sucky DVs..


Also, your accuracy pool will be in a similar state to his DV pool.

Reason:

When making a flurry, the number of dice in each attack is reduced by the number of attacks in the flurry + 1 per attack. So:

Shiny McSolar has a raw accuracy pool of 15.

He makes, for example, a 4-attack flurry, a veritable hailstorm of blows.
Here's where things start getting bad for him. The first attack in the flurry would only have 11 dice. The second would have 10, third would have 9, and fourth would only have 8.

However, Burny McFirey is an Immaculate Fire Dragon Stylist. Immaculates using this style get an added bonus, they don't suffer that big penalty to their dice pool.

So, if Burny has a pool of 15 and makes a 4 attack flurry, his pools look like this:

Att1: 15
Att2: 14
Att3: 13
Att4: 12

Even his smallest pool is bigger than Shiny's biggest.

:smalleek: PFFFT.

1: That penalty is HUGE! The only reason I could see attacking that much to be useful would be if you had a really fast weapon, lowering your opponent's DV with a huge flurry and then hitting them for MASSIVE DAMAGE on your next tick.

2: E-GAD, Immaculate Fire Dragon style is NICE. I may have to play a fire dragonblood in the future...

[Yuki Akuma]

Note: Fire Dragon Style's flurry penalty decrease only applies when wielding short swords or short daiklaves.

[gartius]

That penalty is HUGE! The only reason I could see attacking that much to be useful would be if you had a really fast weapon, lowering your opponent's DV with a huge flurry and then hitting them for MASSIVE DAMAGE on your next tick.

Well one on one yes that would happen, but what is also useful is if one of your circle has a GRAND GOREMAUL OF ANETHMA SLAYING! but can't hit the other side of a barn door becasue the DVs of your opponent are just too high. You flurry, mulch his DV to pitiful amounts to allow the crater-waitin-to-happen actually hit the target. (but then you come across perfects...and you rage quit)

[Mattarias, King.]

Note: Fire Dragon Style's flurry penalty decrease only applies when wielding short swords or short daiklaves.

:smallconfused: Hm, good to know. Dual-wielding then? Cool.


Well one on one yes that would happen, but what is also useful is if one of your circle has a GRAND GOREMAUL OF ANETHMA SLAYING! but can't hit the other side of a barn door becasue the DVs of your opponent are just too high. You flurry, mulch his DV to pitiful amounts to allow the crater-waitin-to-happen actually hit the target. (but then you come across perfects...and you rage quit)

:smallconfused: But I thought the penalty was only against the one who did the flurry, and his DV against your buddy would be unaffected?

[golentan]

:smallconfused: Hm, good to know. Dual-wielding then? Cool.

:smallconfused: But I thought the penalty was only against the one who did the flurry, and his DV against your buddy would be unaffected?

It does. That said, attack coordination can do much the same thing, if you have a guy with high War in the group, and that does allow doubleteaming the enemy.

[Reynard]

Well one on one yes that would happen, but what is also useful is if one of your circle has a GRAND GOREMAUL OF ANETHMA SLAYING! but can't hit the other side of a barn door becasue the DVs of your opponent are just too high. You flurry, mulch his DV to pitiful amounts to allow the crater-waitin-to-happen actually hit the target. (but then you come across perfects...and you rage quit)
:smallconfused: But I thought the penalty was only against the one who did the flurry, and his DV against your buddy would be unaffected?
Correct, Rate is completely worthless except for Fire Dragons, or people with insane accuracy pools.

If you want to all pile on a dude, Coordinated Attacks are they way forward, and the more of you that are attacking him at once, the more his DVs get shafted.

[SurlySeraph]

Objection: against an enemy with low DVs and high soak, you can flurry for lots of attacks to hit him with minimum damage a bunch of times.

[Mattarias, King.]

It does. That said, attack coordination can do much the same thing, if you have a guy with high War in the group, and that does allow doubleteaming the enemy.

:smallbiggrin: Awesome! Good thing I'm the son of a WAR god. Wouldn't be much of one without a few dots in that.


Correct, Rate is completely worthless except for Fire Dragons, or people with insane accuracy pools.

If you want to all pile on a dude, Coordinated Attacks are they way forward, and the more of you that are attacking him at once, the more his DVs get shafted.

Alright! :smallbiggrin: ...How do coordinated attacks work again? :smallredface:


Objection: against an enemy with low DVs and high soak, you can flurry for lots of attacks to hit him with minimum damage a bunch of times.

:smallconfused: Ooohh... Good idea. I forgot about minimum damage.. THAT will help a lot if we ever run into that one infernal again... Is minimum damage affected by hardness? :smallconfused:

*mumblemumblebronzeskincharmmumble..*

[golentan]

:smallconfused: Ooohh... Good idea. I forgot about minimum damage.. THAT will help a lot if we ever run into that one infernal again... Is minimum damage affected by hardness? :smallconfused: [/SIZE]

Minimum damage occurs if and only if your damage is sufficient to penetrate hardness and insufficient to overcome soak. In such a situation, when soak would reduce damage to less than minimum damage (whether based on essence or weapon), minimum damage is inflicted instead.

By the way, love the Zenith/Malefactor (and whatever the abyssal equivalent is, I'm guessing, having never really looked at abyssals), anima that effectively doubles minimum damage against a wide range of foes.

[Mattarias, King.]

Minimum damage occurs if and only if your damage is sufficient to penetrate hardness and insufficient to overcome soak. In such a situation, when soak would reduce damage to less than minimum damage (whether based on essence or weapon), minimum damage is inflicted instead.

:smallredface: Oh, right. I knew that. Good point. Well, yeah, then, that'll really help against that bluh bluh huge witch of an infernal. She touched my sword without permission. :smallfurious: Next time we meet, I'm letting her touch the business end. Multiple times. Really fast.

[The Rose Dragon]

She touched my sword without permission.

You're a God-blooded. She is an Exalt - a Solar-tier one at that. The permission is implicit.

[Fortuna]

I've been going back over the basics a little bit, and wondering: does the Third Excellency ever compare with the First or Second? Because it seems to me that it's always going to be less effective, and requires reasonable dice pools to be cheaper.

[The Rose Dragon]

I've been going back over the basics a little bit, and wondering: does the Third Excellency ever compare with the First or Second? Because it seems to me that it's always going to be less effective, and requires reasonable dice pools to be cheaper.

It's efficient. Especially if you can get up Infinite Ability Mastery at Essence 3. It mostly helps with DVs and other static ratings and non-combat rolls like Stealth as well.

[a_humble_lich]

The Third Excellency can be good for non-Solars. When your starting Sidereal only gets two dice from the First Excellency, then the Third starts looking quite attractive.

[Mattarias, King.]

You're a God-blooded. She is an Exalt - a Solar-tier one at that. The permission is implicit.

:smalltongue: I don't see it that way. I come from an actual line of God-Kings. Not some posers who aren't actually gods that are kings. :smallamused:

I took my sword back by tackling her. >>' While on fire, to an extent.

[Kyeudo]

Objection: against an enemy with low DVs and high soak, you can flurry for lots of attacks to hit him with minimum damage a bunch of times.

Such a character is doomed from character creation unless they have some way to heal health levels quickly. The math of the game just makes it so.

[Reynard]

Yeah. If their DVs are pants, odds are that their attack pools will be as well. Making them a non-issue in combat without heavy charm use.

[SurlySeraph]

Such a character is doomed from character creation unless they have some way to heal health levels quickly. The math of the game just makes it so.

Such a character would be a Lunar, and thus not doomed.

[Reynard]

Such a character would be a Lunar, and thus not doomed.

Why would a Lunar who expected to get into combat at some point have poor DVs? Also, why would they, if they were built with the intention of avoiding fights, get in to one?

Any one can a Dex of 6 without blinking, and any Lunar that wants to be hidden or escape can do so easily.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallconfused: Speaking of stats of 6, can/do charms/mutations/whatever that give you extra dots in something let you go over five, if things would total up to that? Because my God Body form is currently giving me six dots in my physical stats, and I only have room for five. I'm currently taking the merit Legendary Strength in order to facilitate that last dot, but I'd like to know if it's actually needed.

[Rikandur Azebol]

God Body is a sort of Super-Saian temporary buff. It can overcome basic limitations as far as I know the thing.

Legendary Attributes ... You'll have to work hard to acquire them. Look at the Legendary Abilities as well. Every single dot counts. :smallbiggrin:

[SurlySeraph]

Why would a Lunar who expected to get into combat at some point have poor DVs? Also, why would they, if they were built with the intention of avoiding fights, get in to one?

Any one can a Dex of 6 without blinking, and any Lunar that wants to be hidden or escape can do so easily.

I'm aware that making a combat build with high Stamina and low Dexterity is a bad idea, and that getting high Stamina *and* high Dexterity is easy. However, a heavy focus on soak would reduce the resources you had available to increase your DVs.

My original comment was to note a specific situation in which Rate is not worthless, not to propose a character build. I don't intend to sound like I think I'm an expert on Exalted optimization, because I'm definitely not, and I have no idea whether you're likely to fight opponents with soak high enough and DVs low enough that flurries work great against them in actual play.

[Ganurath]

:smallconfused: Speaking of stats of 6, can/do charms/mutations/whatever that give you extra dots in something let you go over five, if things would total up to that? Because my God Body form is currently giving me six dots in my physical stats, and I only have room for five. I'm currently taking the merit Legendary Strength in order to facilitate that last dot, but I'd like to know if it's actually needed.Let me tell you the story of Victoria Northchild, a God-Blood who threw off an Abyssal's killer combo without using a Charm thanks to God-Body giving her Dexterity 12.

...Actually, that says it all right there. The girl had Dex 12 in God Body, an Adamant Reaper Daiklave, and Favored Melee.

[Mattarias, King.]

Let me tell you the story of Victoria Northchild, a God-Blood who threw off an Abyssal's killer combo without using a Charm thanks to God-Body giving her Dexterity 12.

...Actually, that says it all right there. The girl had Dex 12 in God Body, an Adamant Reaper Daiklave, and Favored Melee.

:smalleek: *Blink* ...WELL. I guess I just got back some bonus points! I'll inform my ST when he isn't expelling his organs.

[The Rose Dragon]

:smalltongue: I don't see it that way. I come from an actual line of God-Kings. Not some posers who aren't actually gods that are kings. :smallamused:

You see, the problem is that the Exalted (specifically, Celestial Exalted, because according to Creation-Ruling Mandate, Terrestrials can have it) are rulers of Creation, deemed fit to decide the fate of anyone else in Creation who doesn't dwell in Yu-Shan. Furthermore, you are an abomination of flesh that is illegal in Heaven and heretical in Creation and as such don't have the rights granted to even a mortal unless you can take it by force. You should be glad you aren't killed on sight by Immaculate monks who believe humans can only hold power if they are Dragon-blooded or enlightened by their will.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think it's legal for a god-blooded to deny an Infernal, though. Considering Infernals are enemies of Creation and such.

[Fortuna]

I seem to be frequenting this thread a lot more than usual lately.

What are peoples' thoughts on Thaumaturgy? Given that it's dirt-cheap, and effective (if limited) in its applications, I quite like it. Alchemy is awesome, Husbandry has some neat stuff (particularly Summon Human), and Warding and Exorcism has noticeable applications. So am I missing something, or is thaumaturgy just awesome, and a near-definite buy for anyone with high Occult?

[Jokasti]

I seem to be frequenting this thread a lot more than usual lately.

What are peoples' thoughts on Thaumaturgy? Given that it's dirt-cheap, and effective (if limited) in its applications, I quite like it. Alchemy is awesome, Husbandry has some neat stuff (particularly Summon Human), and Warding and Exorcism has noticeable applications. So am I missing something, or is thaumaturgy just awesome, and a near-definite buy for anyone with high Occult?
Oh, it's awesome, for mortals and their ilk. But if you're Exalted, Charms can do more things, cooler and faster. God-Bloods can do some good stuff with it too, but it's meant for people that can't learn Charms or Sorcery/Necromancy, and has according power levels.

[Reynard]

Yeah, and as a Solar, all of it's effects (and more) can be better-than-duplicated by getting two charms, Wyld-Shaping and it's upgrade.

[Fortuna]

Except both of those require proximity to the Wyld, which can be a bloody pain and involve lots of travel.

[Jokasti]

Except both of those require proximity to the Wyld, which can be a bloody pain and involve lots of travel.

There are lots and lots of Wyld Pockets in Creation, so not really. They're everywhere. It's quite frightening, really.

[Reynard]

IIRC, you can crack open a demense for a similar effect, though it's not very enjoyable for the countryside.

[Fortuna]

Fair enough then. Still, I like Alchemy in particular. And for non-Solars, doesn't it become far more useful?

[Reynard]

Ehh... Kinda.

Infernals with SWHLIHN (Or Swillin') charms have even more effective methods of producing stuff out of... well, corpses, limited only by what they can dream up needing. Need a lump of gold? Smother a rat with golden fog, get a rat-sized, vaguely rat-shaped lump of pure gold.

DBs have relatively easy access to soem decent craft charms, but they can certainly use Thuamturgy, and it sort-of fills some gaps.

Lunars can also make decent use of it, but their crafting shtick is working with Moonsilver and making weapons out of the environment. (As opposed to making the environment into a weapon, ala Solar Hero.)

[Jokasti]

Fair enough then. Still, I like Alchemy in particular. And for non-Solars, doesn't it become far more useful?

Eh. Sidereals can do lots of stuff with the Loom, and Solar-Tier all don't really use it. Dragon Blooded get the most from it, Immaculates usually go Warding. Lunars use Astrology and get a bonus from the Wyld iirc. But not really.

[The Rose Dragon]

Need a lump of gold? Smother a rat with golden fog, get a rat-sized, vaguely rat-shaped lump of pure gold.

Depends on your Essence and the size of the rat. At Essence 3, you need a very small rat to get pure gold. It's probably going to be tarnished gold, really.

[Xefas]

Infernals with SWHLIHN (Or Swillin') charms have even more effective methods of producing stuff out of... well, corpses, limited only by what they can dream up needing. Need a lump of gold? Smother a rat with golden fog, get a rat-sized, vaguely rat-shaped lump of pure gold.

Actually, the writer of the charm clarified that you don't need corpses. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/23136.aspx?PageIndex=1) You can just transmute rocks or dirt or something into whatever. The clarifying posts are towards the bottom of that page.

[The Rose Dragon]

Actually, the writer of the charm clarified that you don't need corpses. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/23136.aspx?PageIndex=1) You can just transmute rocks or dirt or something into whatever. The clarifying posts are towards the bottom of that page.

Well, of course, the main problem is that the Resources system is screwed up. I mean, can you tell me how many Resources 2 acquisitions get you to Resources 3? What use is a reward worth Resources 2 if you already have Resources 4?

So, sure, you can, at Essence 3, get infinite amount of Resources 2 items. At what point do you effectively have Resources 5 and can buy Resources 4 items without a problem?

[Xefas]

Well, of course, the main problem is that the Resources system is screwed up. I mean, can you tell me how many Resources 2 acquisitions get you to Resources 3? What use is a reward worth Resources 2 if you already have Resources 4?

So, sure, you can, at Essence 3, get infinite amount of Resources 2 items. At what point do you effectively have Resources 5 and can buy Resources 4 items without a problem?

I dunno. The resource system is meant to be fluid specifically to avoid these sorts of situations. I think the intent is for a player to say "Hey, Storyteller, I have a charm that lets me make infinite munnies. Clearly the intent of the charm is to make money a triviality for me, so how about I just spend a couple hours of downtime making a giant pile of cash and I can afford whatever?" and for the Storyteller to say "Meh, okay."

I don't see why that would be a problem. Except that I'm on the internet, so there's at least one person out there at any given time reading my post and seething with rage at my wrongbadfun notions.

[Mattarias, King.]

You see, the problem is that the Exalted (specifically, Celestial Exalted, because according to Creation-Ruling Mandate, Terrestrials can have it) are rulers of Creation, deemed fit to decide the fate of anyone else in Creation who doesn't dwell in Yu-Shan. Furthermore, you are an abomination of flesh that is illegal in Heaven and heretical in Creation and as such don't have the rights granted to even a mortal unless you can take it by force. You should be glad you aren't killed on sight by Immaculate monks who believe humans can only hold power if they are Dragon-blooded or enlightened by their will.

:smallamused: Pfft. Bring 'em on. I'm from outside fate anyways, my bloodline from a kingdom beyond the bounds of creation, battling against the greatest onslaught the Wyld can muster every second of every day, simply with the power of pure holy fire and strength of arms. We are Fire. We are Blood. We are War. We are the Burning Kings.


I think it's legal for a god-blooded to deny an Infernal, though. Considering Infernals are enemies of Creation and such.

That too. The only other type of Exalts that are exactly hounding me in creation are Sidereals. And like I said, "Bring 'em on". :smallamused:

[golentan]

I see. So your character has purchased several of his abilities in exchange for a delusion based flaw?

[Mattarias, King.]

I see. So your character has purchased several of his abilities in exchange for a delusion based flaw?

<<; Maaaayybe.

...Did I ever tell you about the time I took on two hundred sidereal assassins at once? Blindfolded? With one arm tied behind my back?

[Kyeudo]

I dunno. The resource system is meant to be fluid specifically to avoid these sorts of situations. I think the intent is for a player to say "Hey, Storyteller, I have a charm that lets me make infinite munnies. Clearly the intent of the charm is to make money a triviality for me, so how about I just spend a couple hours of downtime making a giant pile of cash and I can afford whatever?" and for the Storyteller to say "Meh, okay."

I don't see why that would be a problem. Except that I'm on the internet, so there's at least one person out there at any given time reading my post and seething with rage at my wrongbadfun notions.

I think his point was something along the lines of: The Charm has a fixed mote cost, so you can transmute X things into Y gold in a day. How many times Y do you need to purchase a palace?

Personally, one half of me finds using a Charm to make valuble substances out of nothing to be wrong. Then I remember that money in Exalted is worthless anyway and I send that half off to play D&D in the back of my head.

[Jokasti]

<<; Maaaayybe.

...Did I ever tell you about the time I took on two hundred sidereal assassins at once? Blindfolded? With one arm tied behind my back?
I might believe this if there were 200 sidereals.

[Xefas]

I think his point was something along the lines of: The Charm has a fixed mote cost, so you can transmute X things into Y gold in a day. How many times Y do you need to purchase a palace?

And my point is, simply, that I think the system heavily implies that counting things like that doesn't matter. I agree with it, too.

Sure, you can try to map it out. It costs me 1 mote per 5 seconds to make Resource 2 munnies. I have X motes, I respire Y motes per hour. I can buy a slave for Resource 2, how many slaves is a palace worth, etc.

But why not just say "Oh, this charm clearly implies that scarcity of money should no longer be a theme for this character's story. Given a day or so, they can buy whatever the hell they want. It's not exact, but I would rather do that, which isn't likely to incur any problems, than to halt gameplay while we count gold pieces and do arithmetic for an hour, and if a problem does arise, I will deal with it then."

Resources aren't screwy or broken, they're there as a platform to guide rational storyteller decisions without the hassle of accounting work, so you can get on with the epic heroic asskicking.

[Gensh]

I might believe this if there were 200 sidereals.

Well, most of them are babies at this point, so maybe he just killed some of them more than once. I'm a terrible person. :smalltongue:

[Jokasti]

Well, most of them are babies at this point, so maybe he just killed some of them more than once. I'm a terrible person. :smalltongue:


<<; Maaaayybe.

...Did I ever tell you about the time I took on two hundred sidereal assassins at once? Blindfolded? With one arm tied behind my back?
Yeah... what?

[Gensh]

Yeah... what?

Meh. Spawn camping. A lot more disturbing in this case, but what can I say?

[The Rose Dragon]

And my point is, simply, that I think the system heavily implies that counting things like that doesn't matter. I agree with it, too.

Sure, you can try to map it out. It costs me 1 mote per 5 seconds to make Resource 2 munnies. I have X motes, I respire Y motes per hour. I can buy a slave for Resource 2, how many slaves is a palace worth, etc.

But why not just say "Oh, this charm clearly implies that scarcity of money should no longer be a theme for this character's story. Given a day or so, they can buy whatever the hell they want. It's not exact, but I would rather do that, which isn't likely to incur any problems, than to halt gameplay while we count gold pieces and do arithmetic for an hour, and if a problem does arise, I will deal with it then."

Resources aren't screwy or broken, they're there as a platform to guide rational storyteller decisions without the hassle of accounting work, so you can get on with the epic heroic asskicking.

It would all be fine if Resources wasn't a background, and therefore didn't cost you XP. Since it does cost you XP, you need to figure out the points at which it costs you that XP.

[Kyeudo]

It would all be fine if Resources wasn't a background, and therefore didn't cost you XP. Since it does cost you XP, you need to figure out the points at which it costs you that XP.

That's a stylistic choice (the Background errata even calls it out as such). Charging for Background dots was something I was going to do, but it just never felt right, so I went back to "your current level of Backgrounds are contingent on the content of the story" and let them have anything they could get for no XP cost.

[Rockphed]

Perhaps the best way to think of the resources background is not so much what a character CAN get as what a character WOULD get without thinking about it. Incredibly frugal characters would probably not spend inordinate amounts of money on things, even if they had the money. On the other hand, if you can be rolling in gold, but your mind only goes up to "Gold-plated-gold-carriage", then you probably aren't going to acquire a giant palace of awesomeness without somehow broadening your mind.

Part of that made the resources background sound like a flaw. That must be crazy talk.

[The Rose Dragon]

Let's talk about First Age I AM Game Shows!

Where in Malfeas is Carmen Sandiego was a popular game show on I AM, where a young Solar circle tries to find an elder Chosen of Journeys, named Carmen Sandiego, across Malfeas. It incidentally helps young children learn about Malfean geography. Of course, it helps that Malfeas has a constantly shifting geography, as no two episodes are ever the same. There was a brief spin-off named Where in the Underworld is Carmen Sandiego, but it only lasted 142 years before being cancelled.

Speaking of brief-lasting shows, there was a game show where Terrestrials were kidnapped from secondary school and outfitted with Essence collars that could be remotely exploded, then trapped in an island. The only way out was to be the only Terrestrial to survive. The Terrestrial students were given a variety of weapons (jade and otherwise) and other lethal implements for their killing spree. The show was cancelled after 42 seasons when a Solar overseer was brutally murdered by the Terrestrials, and the island was destroyed, along with the Terrestrials on it, by exploding a protoshinmaic vortex and a soulbreaker orb. The Solar Deliberative, to this day, still denies the show was ever aired. Memory crystals of the show can often be found in the possession of rebellious Terrestrials who keep denying their rightful place as the vassals of the Lawgivers.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallsigh: I'm gone for a bit and a hilariously overblown story now paints me as a babykiller. Oh dear...

[Rockphed]

Obviously you need to invest in performance, or whatever helps you make your storytelling better.

[Mattarias, King.]

Obviously you need to invest in performance, or whatever helps you make your storytelling better.

<<; I've got three dots in it. I was so invested in telling the story to my party I didn't notice combat happening. (That is, to say, I botched my join battle roll...)

[Rockphed]

<<; I've got three dots in it. I was so invested in telling the story to my party I didn't notice combat happening. (That is, to say, I botched my join battle roll...)

But you at least still accidentally killed somebody while acting out the fight scene in your story, right? :smalltongue:

Seriously, hearing tales about your delusional God Blood Warling makes me want to play exalted. Then I remember that finals start in a week and I need to finish my homework.:yuk:

[Mattarias, King.]

But you at least still accidentally killed somebody while acting out the fight scene in your story, right? :smalltongue:

Seriously, hearing tales about your delusional God Blood Warling makes me want to play exalted. Then I remember that finals start in a week and I need to finish my homework.:yuk:

:smallbiggrin: Heheh, thanks. I enjoy the game thoroughly. Can't wait to ascend. Things will get real. :smallcool:

And yeah, finals suck. :smallyuk:

[golentan]

So.

I was kind of thinking of representing some of the stuff in bleach with exalted. Basic idea: all the deadies are ghosts. Essence 1 are pluses, essence 2-5 are shinigami or hollows (with rules to represent the differences), essence 6 become captains/menos grandes, and essence 7+ can only be reached by becoming a vizard or arrancar.

Do you think it's doable? I'm working a bit on the rules to represent the different tiers.

[Mattarias, King.]

So.

I was kind of thinking of representing some of the stuff in bleach with exalted. Basic idea: all the deadies are ghosts. Essence 1 are pluses, essence 2-5 are shinigami or hollows (with rules to represent the differences), essence 6 become captains/menos grandes, and essence 7+ can only be reached by becoming a vizard or arrancar.

Do you think it's doable? I'm working a bit on the rules to represent the different tiers.

I believe I've seen something like that before.. Ah, yes, here (http://lore5.patternspider.net/article/show/4.html).

Hopefully it'll be of some help? :smallsmile:

[Drascin]

So, I think everyone here knows of my... lack of enthusiasm about Solars (I will not bore you with the details) but yesterday I was thinking on some stuff and it suddenly hit me, and I think I have finally found a silly little concept concept that does seem to need a Solar and is likely to get me to at least think of playing one. One concept based, simply, on taking one ability beyond the limits of the absurd, and pulling it off nonetheless, which I think is what Solars are supposed to be about, right? Basically, to hide the unhideable, and poach the unpoachable.

I had the idea to play, basically, Carmen Sandiego.

What would be people's suggestions to achieve this? Are there enough Larceny Charms published or would I need to stat out Magnificent Thief Of Monuments Technique and its ilk? :smallwink.

[Kyeudo]

The major problem with representing Bleach using Exalted is that in Exalted much of your power comes from your Charms, where as in Bleach much of your power comes from your sword.

[Reynard]

It's been ages since I watched it, and I only got up to the Bount Arc, but isn't it the other way around, sort-of? Didn't their swords only represent and channel their powers?

[Kyeudo]

It's been ages since I watched it, and I only got up to the Bount Arc, but isn't it the other way around, sort-of? Didn't their swords only represent and channel their powers?

Oh, the more powerful you were the more powerful your sword was and depriving a shinigami of their sword was very hard, but you can guage who wins in a given fight by how powerful thier sword's power is. For example, Aizen, with his perfect hypnosis power, trumps pretty much everyone. Kira only loses fights to those who either can strike faster than he can block or else have immaterial sword abilities. Ikakku loses to everyone unless he can bring his Bankai to bear. And so on.

[The Rose Dragon]

I had the idea to play, basically, Carmen Sandiego.

Sidereal Chosen of Journeys who favors Larceny and Stealth.

Also, Avoidance Kata.

[Kyeudo]

Sidereal Chosen of Journeys who favors Larceny and Stealth.

Also, Avoidance Kata.

Don't forget Dodge. You want Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme so you can steal the Penitent from the Lap.

[The Rose Dragon]

Don't forget Dodge. You want Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme so you can steal the Penitent from the Lap.

I thought that was implied by Avoidance Kata.

[Kyeudo]

I thought that was implied by Avoidance Kata.

It is not necessarily true that every Sidereal with Avoidance Kata has Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme. Only the smart ones do that.

[The Rose Dragon]

It is not necessarily true that every Sidereal with Avoidance Kata has Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme. Only the smart ones do that.

I'm still trying to figure out how you steal the Penitent from the Lap, though. It would be like stealing Manhattan from the Empire State Building.

Then again, "because Sidereals".

[Kyeudo]

I'm still trying to figure out how you steal the Penitent from the Lap, though. It would be like stealing Manhattan from the Empire State Building.

Then again, "because Sidereals".

Actuallty, it's closer to trying to steal Manhattan Island from underneath Manhattan. All it takes is a few connections in Heaven and some creative accounting.

[Drascin]

Sidereal Chosen of Journeys who favors Larceny and Stealth.

Also, Avoidance Kata.

Problem is that NRS can only move whole cities, not just particular buildings, IIRC (the text even calls out specifically that it can't just pick parts of cities. All of it or bust). And any other Charms sid have suck for the job and you can't even make new ones without most STs getting their panties in a bunch due to the silly "no new Charms!" restriction Sids have. Plus infinite paperwork, being swamped in politics, and a day job as a stressed bureaucrat are a bit against the whole White Glove Thief concept, I'd say.

[horngeek]

silly "no new Charms!" restriction Sids have

Fluff-wise, it makes sense.

Game-wise, it sucks. :smallyuk:

[Drascin]

Fluff-wise, it makes sense.

Game-wise, it sucks. :smallyuk:

Honestly, I can understand why they'd make it so it would be hard for players to make up Charms out of nowhere in the middle of the campaign - sidereals are supposed to be Creation's McGyvers, working to save the world with a paperclip, three pounds of chewing gum, and Shun the Smiling Lady.

What I never understood, however, is why people are so renuent new Sidereal charms at all, despite the game downright saying that Maidens add Charms on a whim if they want. Whenever anyone does a homebrew saying "I'm adding these to my campaign's Sidereal trees", instead of critique they usually get bitched out and told to go make SMAs instead. It's uncanny.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallconfused: Really? Bleh. Those people aren't understanding that the game's supposed to be fun, and sometimes there have to be exceptions to the rules so fun could be had. I mean, hell, the PCs ARE supposed to be the exceptions to all the rules! That's why they're the PCs and not random shmucks who just happen to be able to flip cities or whatever. :smallannoyed:

[DragonSinged]

Hallo there, Exalted players.

I've only recently (past couple months) discovered Exalted, and I've been very excited about getting into it (if a bit daunted.)
Been trying to get my group of friends/gaming group into it as well, in the hopes that I can convince one of them to ST a game - got a neat character concept I want to try.

I've been reading through this thread from the beginning, and I've got to say, while I love the setting of Exalted, all this talk I'm seeing of -

"Well, yeah, Exalted's great, except that combat sucks because it always winds up that you're playing the same character who MUST have this perfect defense and then this other defense and these excellencies, oh, and if you don't have this shaping defense thing you might as well not even play, because you will invariably be turned into a duck. Even if that's not what your opponent wanted to turn you into, it's weird, you'll end up as a duck, unless you're a Sidereal, in which case you'll end up as whatever you were FATED to end up as, or if you were a duck-lunar to begin with, then you'll wind up as a catgirl."

Anyways, what I want to know is, honestly speaking, those of you who have played Exalted - Am I doing the wrong thing, getting my group into this? Is second ed. Exalted honestly this broken, that you can only play one type of character and realistically expect to survive?

Because the first comments about Exalted I ever read were saying things like, "Exalted is a game where you get to PUNCH CREATION IN THE FACE!" But now it's sounding a lot more like "Exalted is a game where you get to try to PUNCH CREATION IN THE FACE, unless you've got the wrong defenses, or if Creation gets a surprise round, or if anyone sneezes near some Grand Goremaul thing, in which case you're pretty much paste."

Am I getting the wrong impression?

[Mattarias, King.]

Welcome to Exalted! :smallsmile:

And ehh.. I'm relatively new too, and I haven't seen anyone killed because they don't have the right defenses or whatever. Maybe it's because my group's not playing it "right", but eh. We have fun. :smalltongue: I say don't worry about it, just play.

..Also, a lot of Sidereals are fated to be ducks, I think. They even have a charm for that- Duck Fate!

:smalltongue: It's a real thing.

[Tavar]

Quick question; if an attack's roll equals the DV value, what happens?(ie, you have an attack with 4 successes and a final DV of 4)

[Tengu_temp]

Am I getting the wrong impression?

Let's put it this way: if you follow mechanical discussions about DND 3.5 on these boards, you're very likely to get the impression that classes below tier 1 are not worth playing.


Quick question; if an attack's roll equals the DV value, what happens?(ie, you have an attack with 4 successes and a final DV of 4)

The attack gets parried/dodged. You need to go above the DV.

[Lord Raziere]

Hallo there, Exalted players.

I've only recently (past couple months) discovered Exalted, and I've been very excited about getting into it (if a bit daunted.)
Been trying to get my group of friends/gaming group into it as well, in the hopes that I can convince one of them to ST a game - got a neat character concept I want to try.

I've been reading through this thread from the beginning, and I've got to say, while I love the setting of Exalted, all this talk I'm seeing of -

"Well, yeah, Exalted's great, except that combat sucks because it always winds up that you're playing the same character who MUST have this perfect defense and then this other defense and these excellencies, oh, and if you don't have this shaping defense thing you might as well not even play, because you will invariably be turned into a duck. Even if that's not what your opponent wanted to turn you into, it's weird, you'll end up as a duck, unless you're a Sidereal, in which case you'll end up as whatever you were FATED to end up as, or if you were a duck-lunar to begin with, then you'll wind up as a catgirl."

Anyways, what I want to know is, honestly speaking, those of you who have played Exalted - Am I doing the wrong thing, getting my group into this? Is second ed. Exalted honestly this broken, that you can only play one type of character and realistically expect to survive?

Because the first comments about Exalted I ever read were saying things like, "Exalted is a game where you get to PUNCH CREATION IN THE FACE!" But now it's sounding a lot more like "Exalted is a game where you get to try to PUNCH CREATION IN THE FACE, unless you've got the wrong defenses, or if Creation gets a surprise round, or if anyone sneezes near some Grand Goremaul thing, in which case you're pretty much paste."

Am I getting the wrong impression?

no its more like that without a specific charms called "perfect defenses" which basically allow you to DODGE CREATION IN THE FACE, your dead, cause armor is good and all that, but eventually you'll be facing freakishly powerful stuff that'll wipe you out if you use anything mortal like armor or non-perfect dodging.

so yes you are getting the wrong impression, cause no ST would be that cruel early in game and the games mechanics are somewhat slated so that defense > offense. you can still play the character you want, you just have to make sure you take something like Dodge or Resistance early on so you eventually get a perfect defense later in the game when it will be more useful, and take any defenses against shaping only if you are going to play a Wyld game or a game involving the Fae, because that is the only enemy that uses it.

its not that you have to play one type of character- its just that a certain point there are a few charms that are needed to not lose. other than that, feel free to punch gods in the face, juggle trees and whatever else you want to do now that your a semi-immortal demigod.

[Rainmar]

Am I getting the wrong impression?


Honestly, It all depends on agreement between ST and players and ability to communicate. I never heard 2 ed being broken...but again, there is no game system which is perfect, fair and whatever. Yes, after some time perfect defenses become a painfull reality of a game and on higher level battles(especially exalt vs. exalt) they came to "perfect defend or =spalt=". That might be very discouraging but I say you and your friends try out Exalted. Especially to explore the world and setting which is vast, colorfull and interesting. If you have uneasy fellings about Exalted meyby you should start with some 'underdogs'? There are other creatures in Creation worth mentioning then Solar or even Celestial Exalted. There are DragonBlooded, thou I have never had a chance to try playin one, and lower tier composing of super natural creatures and god-blooded which are below Terrestial Exalted and above mortals. I especially love the Jadeborn(I can ROUGHLY compare them to dwarfs from other fantasy settings) and DragonKings(super intelligent humanoid lizards).

[Neon Knight]

Hallo there, Exalted players.

I've only recently (past couple months) discovered Exalted, and I've been very excited about getting into it (if a bit daunted.)
Been trying to get my group of friends/gaming group into it as well, in the hopes that I can convince one of them to ST a game - got a neat character concept I want to try.

I've been reading through this thread from the beginning, and I've got to say, while I love the setting of Exalted, all this talk I'm seeing of -

"Well, yeah, Exalted's great, except that combat sucks because it always winds up that you're playing the same character who MUST have this perfect defense and then this other defense and these excellencies, oh, and if you don't have this shaping defense thing you might as well not even play, because you will invariably be turned into a duck. Even if that's not what your opponent wanted to turn you into, it's weird, you'll end up as a duck, unless you're a Sidereal, in which case you'll end up as whatever you were FATED to end up as, or if you were a duck-lunar to begin with, then you'll wind up as a catgirl."

Anyways, what I want to know is, honestly speaking, those of you who have played Exalted - Am I doing the wrong thing, getting my group into this? Is second ed. Exalted honestly this broken, that you can only play one type of character and realistically expect to survive?

Because the first comments about Exalted I ever read were saying things like, "Exalted is a game where you get to PUNCH CREATION IN THE FACE!" But now it's sounding a lot more like "Exalted is a game where you get to try to PUNCH CREATION IN THE FACE, unless you've got the wrong defenses, or if Creation gets a surprise round, or if anyone sneezes near some Grand Goremaul thing, in which case you're pretty much paste."

Am I getting the wrong impression?

Allow me to state my opinion. Overall:

Is the scenario we describe a possible outcome? Yes.

Is the scenario we describe the only outcome? No.

Is the scenario we describe a likely outcome? Yes, particularly as the group gains system mastery, and as the characters gain power/XP/Essence.

Can our scenario be deliberately avoided? Possibly, by a very good ST with very good rules mastery going out of his way to avoid such things. It will require him avoiding certain material and balancing things just so, and such careful arrangements must be made with the specific character builds of the players in mind.

How about a newbie group? Basically, you're playing Russian Roulette. Chances are, eventually, you or one of the members of your group will stumble upon something the changes the paradigm and starts causing the above problems. Material like this can be found in the Core book, and very easily acquired by starting characters. As system mastery and character power increases, start loading more than one chamber in the revolver. Eventually, you'll end up playing Polish Roulette (which is played with an automatic, for those unfamiliar with the term.)

It isn't a foregone conclusion, but it is a very great concern. The question you need to ask yourself is, Why do I want to play Exalted? If you want to play it for the fluff, then you may want to grin and bear it. However, many people have created conversions to play Exalted in other systems, with varying degrees of success and popularity.

If you just want to play Exalted for a sense of empowerment, because it promises to let you do awesome things, because the position of your characters in the overall scheme of things can be rather prominent... I actually recommend playing something else. The rules really aren't the best. There are other games that offer high power levels and importance to the PCs in the setting without Exalted's drawbacks and limitations. In my opinion, and the opinions of others I've noted on this board, you play Exalted for its fluff. And it is fairly nice fluff.

[golentan]

Dragon Singed: I have never run into this problem, personally. Despite only once having played a character with a perfect defense of any sort, in my latest game.

Is it higher lethality without one? Yes, of course it is. Does that make it unplayable? No. We're not talking tomb of horrors, we're talking traveller. It's lethal, but you cope by keeping your head down and not escalating to the point where they have to crack out the FGMP-15s. And teamwork helps a lot as well.

[Yuki Akuma]

In Exalted you need to play a specific build in order to be effective.

Just like in D&D you need to be a Wizard, Cleric or Druid in order to be effective.

(Note: this is sarcasm.)

[The Rose Dragon]

Am I getting the wrong impression?

Sort of, but not really.

Here's the gist of your problem: Exalted has a very vocal minority. On the White Wolf boards, they are known as simulationists, and their expectations are that everyone behave intelligently and efficiently. They are often smart people, but their knowledge of human psychology is probably not as good as their knowledge of math, since humans generally don't work that way in most situations. Therefore, assuming all enemies are perfectly efficient and intelligent, Exalted as a system demands that you have certain defenses in place, or you will die when you encounter your first Wyld Hunt.

Here's the solution: learn the system, the places it can break easily, and then lie your ass off when you come to a point that will break. Also, learn some basic psychology, so if someone asks you why the enemies aren't "playing smart", you can tell them about combat psychology and subconscious self-sabotage patterns and other real-life reasons why. Real people are not perfectly intelligent and efficient, especially in stressful situations such as combat, so why should Creation-born be so?

Mechanically, there are a few things you can do, outside of lying your ass off. For starters, accept that 2-die stunts are rewards, not a law of Creation. Basically, you get them not because you involve the environment, but because the ST thinks you deserve them (it even says so in the rulebook!). This will make combos much rarer, but then you will have to be careful not to overwhelm players with offense, since they won't be able to respond to more than one basic offense keyword. Another thing you can do is to give Integrity-Protecting Prana or similar shaping defense to anyone who meets the prerequisites, because it's a very basic and helpful part of each build. Finally, Excellencies are very, very useful, but often novice players will overlook them for flashier, but less useful stuff. Give free Excellencies as you see fit. That will mean everyone will have a basic level of competency in what you want (or what they want).

[SurlySeraph]

Problem is that NRS can only move whole cities, not just particular buildings, IIRC (the text even calls out specifically that it can't just pick parts of cities. All of it or bust). And any other Charms sid have suck for the job and you can't even make new ones without most STs getting their panties in a bunch due to the silly "no new Charms!" restriction Sids have. Plus infinite paperwork, being swamped in politics, and a day job as a stressed bureaucrat are a bit against the whole White Glove Thief concept, I'd say.

Maybe summon the Calibration Gate and shove the building through it?

Also, sufficiently high Salary and/or being a ronin and/or really good Bureaucracy are good ways to evade being swamped.

[Drascin]

Let's put it this way: if you follow mechanical discussions about DND 3.5 on these boards, you're very likely to get the impression that classes below tier 1 are not worth playing.

Not really. In fact, chances are you'll mostly get the impression that you should always play a Tier 3 class and you should be stoned to death for doing otherwise - be it playing the ones above for "being a selfish powergamer", or the ones below for "making yourself useless" :smalltongue:.

But anyway, as to the question itself, Exalted as a system is even more broken than D&D (quite a feat!), because White Wolf can't do crunch to save their lives - plus it seems to me from here that there was a huge influx of laziness bred from Perfect Defenses, that encouraged developers to just make any kind of flashy over-the-top insta-kill Shaping/Killy/Other offense easy and cheaply because "hey, they'll just perfect it anyway, and they got keyword defenses anyway!". I'm sure you see the problem with that idea.

This overlethality can be offset by an ST who puts player fun above mechanics, nerfing enemies and fudging every now and then, and keeping a lid on the amount of kill-o-tons being bandied around. Basically, it's all a matter of player-DM contract - you people promise to not play unbeatable builds, the ST promises to not unleash any of the infinity plus twelve instakill options on you guys, and people just play and have fun, no problem. If someone tries to game the system a bit, it'll break straight open, but it doesn't need to be a problem if everyone knows this and keeps themselves in line.


Maybe summon the Calibration Gate and shove the building through it?

Also, sufficiently high Salary and/or being a ronin and/or really good Bureaucracy are good ways to evade being swamped.

Being a Ronin is kind of suck though. All the disadvantages of being a Sid, none of the advantages, and Heaven would love nothing more than to kill your ass so your Exaltation will go to someone who is willing to play ball with them. High Salary generally requires being a very very influential person in the Bureau, too.

And somehow, Carmen Sandiego at a desk filling forms with masterful bureaucracy doesn't seem... right :smalltongue:.

[golentan]

So... Animal statblocks seem somewhat... lacking. I bring this up because I was hoping to if not construct at least design a hellstrider: Titaniform Defender. A massive 1st circle study in physical unstoppability. I started out with an infernal worm as the chassis, and... nothing.

See, infernal worms, despite explicitly being first circle demons, are written up as animals. I can't find virtues, or motivation, or a full list of attributes. Without which, hellstrider design fails for obvious reasons.

Halp. Is there any known way around this?

[Rikandur Azebol]

Use Roll of Divinity to make up missing stuff.

[DragonSinged]

Alright, so most people seem to say "Stick with it, there are issues, but only mainly if someone starts the whole group down the 'optimizing' path." Which I guess is more or less what I should have expected.

So that's good, I guess. What I'd like to know, then, is whether anyone has any suggestions for good SAS modules for an introduction to Exalted, both for the players and the ST? Solar characters would be preferable, mainly because they're what's focused on in the Core book, and seems to me that, while maybe Dragon Kings would be better intro characters due to power level, well, like I said... core book.

So yeah, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!

[Tavar]

SAS modules? You mean pregenerated characters?

Also, I think you mean Dragon-Blooded. Dragon Kings are something different(think mystical, intelligent dinosaurs).

[Reynard]

Prewritten adventures?

Heh. I tried running one as an intro to a wider campaign. The PCs broke it into pieces within 2 scenes.

As for prebuilt characters, Scroll of Exalts has a few, but the characters within are composed of 80% raw suck.

[DragonSinged]

Ah, I thought SAS was the shorthand for 'Storyteller Adventure System' or something - Module games, basically. But no, too much power to be contained in a module? Not even as an intro to the game/world type of thing?

[Kylarra]

I ran a modified Return to the Tomb of 5 Corners to intro our game. It went so-so.

[Tavar]

Ah, I thought SAS was the shorthand for 'Storyteller Adventure System' or something - Module games, basically. But no, too much power to be contained in a module? Not even as an intro to the game/world type of thing?

Basically, yeah. You know the problems DnD modules have with a caster who has a moderately optimized spell list? It's the same problem, except all your characters have that. At least, that's my limited experience.

[TheCountAlucard]

...and take any defenses against shaping only if you are going to play a Wyld game or a game involving the Fae, because that is the only enemy that uses it.Hate to be argumentative here, but that's far from true; even Dragon-Blooded have a number of Shaping effects that can really mess up your day. Assuming they don't want to punch your soul off, they can still decide to tax you a fourteen-mote surcharge on every Charm you want to activate.

Of course, it was worse with our ST, who wouldn't let our Shaping perfect work against Essence Disruption Attack, since it was "the Dragon-Blooded's one trick." Ugh.

[Reynard]

Hate to be argumentative here, but that's far from true; even Dragon-Blooded have a number of Shaping effects that can really mess up your day. Assuming they don't want to punch your soul off, they can still decide to tax you a fourteen-mote surcharge on every Charm you want to activate.

Of course, it was worse with our ST, who wouldn't let our Shaping perfect work against Essence Disruption Attack, since it was "the Dragon-Blooded's one trick." Ugh.

Lunars in particular have them out of the wazoo. And while forced shape changes can be hilarious, it's also best if the player getting hit has some say in the matter.

Also, damn. Your ST wasn't very system aware, were they?

[TheCountAlucard]

Nor does it take into account the numerous nasty effects potentially bestowed by Sorcery and pigeonholed into, "Yeah, this is probably some sort of Shaping" territory. :smalltongue: That means even mortals can do it. (shudders)

I will say no more on it here; perhaps by PM?

[Tavar]

Aren't some of the Sid's attacks shaping as well?

[TheCountAlucard]

Aren't some of the Sid's attacks shaping as well?That's quite the understatement, there. :smalltongue:

In truth, pretty much all the splats have their own Shaping effects you've gotta watch out for. Even Abyssals, Infernals, and Solars. In fact, even if most of the splats didn't have Shaping, I'd still have IPP up every day, simply because the off-chance that Shaping gets used on you is enough incentive in and of itself.

[Delusion]

I have one fluff question I have been thinking since I first read sidereals book.

I can understand how the sidereals got away with usupation but how on creation does the bronze faction get a with wyld hunt?

I mean isn't killing celestial exalt still severity 5 offense or something? And I think someone could proof that the sidereals are doing it.

[TheCountAlucard]

I mean isn't killing celestial exalt still severity 5 offense or something? And I think someone could proof that the sidereals are doing it.Killing a high-essence Celestial is a severity 5 offense. So if they ganked, say, an Essence 7 Solar or Lunar, yeah, they'd get in trouble for it... assuming they couldn't use their highly-influential peers to obfuscate the fact that it ever happened in the first place.

And AFAIK, they don't do most of the Wyld Hunting themselves; again, that's why the DBs are doing the brunt of everything.

[Jokasti]

{table=head]Name|ST|Exalt Types|Description
Reflections, Refractions, Distortions and Alterations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179140)|Random_person|Solars, Lunars, Infernals (other less likely)|Loom breaks, fix it, yo.
Nanashi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179169)|Poppa Smurf|Any|Help a city, yo.[/table]

[havocfett]

{table=head]Name|ST?|Player?|#1Exalt|#2Exalt|#3Exalt|Type of Game
Havocfett|No|Yes|Alchemical|Solar|Lunar|Anything[/table]

As a new player, any recommendations for a combat based Alchemical or Solar build?

[Reynard]

Combat Solar: Get the Melee tree. Simple, powerful. Not as versatile as Martial Arts styles, but better than most at killing things, especially after the Dawn Solution stuff.

[horngeek]

Combat Solar: Get the Melee tree. Simple, powerful. Not as versatile as Martial Arts styles, but better than most at killing things, especially after the Dawn Solution stuff.

If you're going for a Dawn Solution type Solar, get everything. It'll ALL be useful.

Incidentally, I disagree with what the Ink Monkeys said about Infinite (Ability) Mastery being a lynchpin of combat.

I think it's (Ability) Essence Flow. Why? Because it allows you to apply Excellencies without having to make them part of a Combo.

[Tavar]

By the time it comes up, you generally have combo's already, though. Plus, mote efficiency is huge, so being able to just max out the first excellency on every attack/defense is a big boost. Guess it really comes down to how common 2-die stunts are in your game.

[Mattarias, King.]

Are combos really that important? :smallconfused: I've gotten along well enough without being able to do them.

I mean, I guess I only have, like, two or three charms, but eh, still. :smallconfused:

Infinite (ability) Mastery DOES look nice though..

[Tavar]

If you want to use more than one charm in an action, or several charms before your next action, yeah. For instance, an offensive charm(like an excellency) and a perfect defense. Otherwise either your offense or your defense takes a major hit.

[Mattarias, King.]

If you want to use more than one charm in an action, or several charms before your next action, yeah. For instance, an offensive charm(like an excellency) and a perfect defense. Otherwise either your offense or your defense takes a major hit.

:smallconfused: Ooh.. Huh, never thought of it that way. Good point.

Even more incentive to ascend ASAP...

[Tavar]

That's also why Social combat is so broke. Your Willpower is your 'health levels', so to keep up both and offense and a defense you have to spend your health levels...I think you can see where this is going.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallconfused: Bleugh. Geez. Yeah.. I can see why my ST doesn't want to deal with Social Combat stuff...

[The Rose Dragon]

Here's a question for you guys: when the setting and the rules conflict, which would you tear apart to fit the other?

For example, the setting says that raksha magic cannot exist on the Blessed Isle, and a few facts are based on that detail. Graceful Wicked Masques makes no mention of that detail. If you needed to change one or the other, which would you change?

((For this hypothetical, assume that 1) you have no raksha players, so player contentment is not an issue, and 2) you are adhering to canon.))

[golentan]

Hmm... On the one hand, no raksha magic makes the raksha's end game nigh impossible, and downgrades them from existential threat to everything to existential threat to most things. On the other hand, that's pretty much exactly how the primordials tried to set up the blessed isle and yu shan in the first place. Kind of the point.

...

I would rule no raksha magic barring an elaborate and overcomplicated plot involving macguffins. Only for the Isle proper, though. I'm too fond of the Versino Ruins and the Wyld Zone by the heptagram to give it up.

[Tavar]

I think that since the Blessed Isle is the middle of creation, farthest from any sources of wyld, that it makes sense. Of course, if the rest of creation was subsumed into the wyld, then all bets are off.

[Kylarra]

Under normal status-quo conditions, I'd probably rule that Raksha magic doesn't work on the blessed isle. Of course, status quo can change through a number of different ways.

[a_humble_lich]

That's also why Social combat is so broke. Your Willpower is your 'health levels', so to keep up both and offense and a defense you have to spend your health levels...I think you can see where this is going.

Not to mention many offensive social charms cost as much willpower to cast (or more) then they do to resist.

[Yuki Akuma]

Not to mention many offensive social charms cost as much willpower to cast (or more) then they do to resist.

And then there's Shun the Smiling Lady.

[SurlySeraph]

Is StSL really that overpowered? Granted, it's the first charm in its tree and it amounts to "Are you inside fate? Do emotions work on you? Do you have a shaping defense? Do you want to pay five willpower? OK, no more social life for you!" But there are several ways to avoid it without having to pay the Willpower cost. And since Sidereals have small essence pools, devoting 7 motes to keeping some Solar from getting a girlfriend isn't necessarily a very good allocation of resources. I'd certainly rather commit those motes to a bunch of Shadow Fingers or a couple nice artifacts than to "Ha ha, shiny-boy's ugly now."

[golentan]

Well, it also absolutely cripples someone's social combat. So you could use it on someone right before they were supposed to have their big debate/speechifying, laugh as it falls flat, withdraw the motes and laugh further when coming off stage their significant other breaks up with them because the intimacy is already gone and not replaced.

[TheCountAlucard]

Ever had your players get down on their knees and say, "Please kill my character?"

Decided I'd be running a game of Exalted in about a month. Decided to allow merits and flaws, too.

Out of the two players who picked up any flaws at all, our Lunar ended up going with Known Anathema and Amnesia, as well as a five-dot Enemy, and our Solar went with Beacon of Power, a five-dot Greater Curse, and Known Anathema.

What do you think, GitP? How bad is it gonna be for them?

[The Rose Dragon]

Ever had your players get down on their knees and say, "Please kill my character?"

Decided I'd be running a game of Exalted in about a month. Decided to allow merits and flaws, too.

Out of the two players who picked up any flaws at all, our Lunar ended up going with Known Anathema and Amnesia, as well as a five-dot Enemy, and our Solar went with Beacon of Power, a five-dot Greater Curse, and Known Anathema.

What do you think, GitP? How bad is it gonna be for them?

The Solar is boned. Just boned. I'm not sure you can ever keep him alive with all the Sidereal murder teams after him.

The Lunar, well, he can survive if he never lets his anima flare and keeps in false forms all the time. He just needs to be careful his tell is never noticed.

[Kylarra]

Ever had your players get down on their knees and say, "Please kill my character?"

Decided I'd be running a game of Exalted in about a month. Decided to allow merits and flaws, too.

Out of the two players who picked up any flaws at all, our Lunar ended up going with Known Anathema and Amnesia, as well as a five-dot Enemy, and our Solar went with Beacon of Power, a five-dot Greater Curse, and Known Anathema.

What do you think, GitP? How bad is it gonna be for them?

... wow hahahaha. If your Lunar stays in false forms they're probably relatively safe, but they can never ever let their guard down. Your solar might as well write his epitaph...

[TheCountAlucard]

The Lunar, well, he can survive if he never lets his anima flare and keeps in false forms all the time. He just needs to be careful his tell is never noticed.Except that he won't know to do so, seeing as how he has amnesia. :smallamused:

[Kylarra]

Except that he won't know to do so, seeing as how he has amnesia. :smallamused:Well if he's not aware of the fact that he's a known anathema, then they can probably both write their epitaphs now.

[horngeek]

This is why Merits and Flaws should be monitored very closely. :smalltongue:

My advice? Disallow those combinations.

[golentan]

This is why Merits and Flaws should be monitored very closely. :smalltongue:

My advice? Disallow those combinations.

Why? Maybe the characters are epic enough to somehow survive. Probably not, but if not it's not as if they've broken the game system with their choices.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Tavar]

Well, you should also make sure that the players are mature enough to take extremely bad things happening to the character well. It really should be a given, but it's sadly lacking some times.

But, yeah, Flaws need to be watched carefully. Merits too, but their much less wonky(through brutal attack...just brutal attack).

[nolispe]

In the Errata, it states that Implict Construction Methodology may only be applied to one roll per project. Now, that makes complete sense with the "all dice become successes" bit. However, the second bit of the charm - which reduces the interval time - how is that effected? Does it reduce the time for one interval, so the first interval takes an hour and the second takes a season? Or does it apply the whole way through the project? As I see it, the arguement for the former is that the whole charm only applies to one roll, IE one interval, while the latter is seemingly supported by the wording 'supplemented by this Charm, each die...' in the charm text.
Which is it?

[TheCountAlucard]

Quite the opposite, in fact.Perhaps it's got something to do with my having told them, "Don't take flaws that won't ever come up." :smallamused:


But, yeah, Flaws need to be watched carefully. Merits too, but their much less wonky(through brutal attack...just brutal attack).IME, there hasn't been a single merit that's worth it for a Solar to take, even Brutal Attack.

[Tavar]

Brutal Attack is more for Lunars. You know tyrant Lizards? 14Str. So, with moderate optimization, a base attack of 22 dice, and if it's your true form you can add 14 more dice onto that. More with Lunar Fury.

And even for non-Lunars, there seem to be many more ways to boost str than Dex.

[The Rose Dragon]

Brutal Attack is more for Lunars. You know tyrant Lizards? 14Str. So, with moderate optimization, a base attack of 22 dice, and if it's your true form you can add 14 more dice onto that. More with Lunar Fury.

And even for non-Lunars, there seem to be many more ways to boost str than Dex.

That's because Exalted is "balanced" around Dexterity being a god-stat. Thus, it has very few methods of raising, while Strength has numerous ones.

[Tavar]

Yeah, I was going to add a line about how that lack of dex boosters was purposeful.

[TheCountAlucard]

So what sort of baddie do you guys'd think would merit Enemy 5 for a starting Lunar?

[The Rose Dragon]

So what sort of baddie do you guys'd think would merit Enemy 5 for a starting Lunar?

The Unconquered Sun.

[Tavar]

An Elder Lunar? A Deathlord? Kejak?

It really depends on his background/motivation. Based on that, someone whose goals he seems to be counter to.

[Fortuna]

However impossible it may be to match the awesome of many previous Exalted homebrewers (The Demented One not least among them), I'm damn well going to try. After all, that's what Exalted is about, right? I figured a cross-post wouldn't be frowned upon, since it's relevant-ish. So, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179649) is my own personal Charm factory.

[Tavar]

Question regarding something in MoEP: Lunars. At one point it mentions that Lilith defeated Golden Eyed Jorst. Who's Jorst?

[golentan]

Question regarding something in MoEP: Lunars. At one point it mentions that Lilith defeated Golden Eyed Jorst. Who's Jorst?

Dude's a major, and I mean Major, terrestrial god out northeast. He's popular and well thought of, and playing a fairly complicated triple game with his worshipers and the local courts, as I recall. His feud with another god is largely responsible for the Haltan Linowan war.

[SurlySeraph]

I'm not sure whether this is a really good or really bad idea.

The charm Wisdom of the Celestial Crane drains a point of willpower from any creature of darkness you damage, and if you take away its last point of willpower it instantly gets an Intimacy of love for Creation.

Neverborn are nigh-unkillable, but only have 10 Willpower. They have 20 Hardness, but with piercing attacks (like a clinch and/or punching them with Rings of Saturn, from Glories of the Most High), that's not that hard to overcome. Damage against them gets reduced a lot, but spend long enough wailing away and it's doable. They can't act physically and apparently mainly only mindcrush people who are actually inside them; a perfect mental defense would certainly be smart, but there's a decent chance that you'll be able to just stand there kicking a Neverborn in the wall until it falls in love with Creation.

Adorjan and the Ebon Dragon are known for doing horrible things to anyone they love, which is why using Wisdom of the Celestial Crane on them is a terrible idea. But the Neverborn aren't said to harm things they love. So presumably doing this would stop the Neverborn from seeking to destroy Creation.
On the other hand, the reason the Neverborn don't fall into the Abyss is because they're attached to creation, and the entire reason they want Creation destroyed is so they can die. So maybe the Neverborn already love Creation, and punching love into them would just make them even more attached to it and still want to see it destroyed.

So, good idea or bad idea?

[Rockphed]

Aren't the Neverborn already in love with creation and that is why they want to drag the place into oblivion?

[golentan]

As I recall, yes they already have an intimacy towards it and no it doesn't help.

They've probably already got their own primordial alien psychology charms, and creation is acting as their fetters.

Does raise the question why the Cascading Years didn't do them in, though.

"Hey guys, we broke creation. Like an egg with a bazooka. Do you think you guys... could maybe let go? It's time to move on."

*WE FEEL NO. NOW LET US TRY TO MOVE ON*

"Gods dammit, guys."

[Fortuna]

Can anyone reccomend any goods forums for Exalted PbP? There's a few games here, sure, but not many at a time, and while those few are good it's hard to find a game if you want to do something a bit unusual (like play in the first age, or play high-Essence Heretical Infernals or whatever).

[horngeek]

This is... difficult, to be honest. Players are in abundance, STs not so much, and I think that's true across the entire internet Exalted community.

I actually have a theory on this: it's hard to get balanced opponents right.

[Fortuna]

You have a very good point there.

[Tavar]

Okay, what exactly do a Lunar's tattoo's do? I mean, what effects do they stop, and which don't they. I thought that they just stopped all shaping keyword effects from working on the lunar, as well as the boost in the DV for astrological effects, but looking over that specific chapter, I'm not so sure. Does it also prohibit sorcery that would change one's shape, for good or ill(say, invulnerable Skin of Bronze)?

[Kyeudo]

Okay, what exactly do a Lunar's tattoo's do? I mean, what effects do they stop, and which don't they. I thought that they just stopped all shaping keyword effects from working on the lunar, as well as the boost in the DV for astrological effects, but looking over that specific chapter, I'm not so sure. Does it also prohibit sorcery that would change one's shape, for good or ill(say, invulnerable Skin of Bronze)?

Any external physical change doesn't work on a tatooed Lunar. This includes all Sorcery, as spells are always shaped externally to the Exalt that casts them. A Lunar's own shapeshifting and Charms still works (unless noted), but nothing else.

Whether a Lunar can use certain Martial Arts Charms that involve shaping is up in the air.

[Drascin]

This is... difficult, to be honest. Players are in abundance, STs not so much, and I think that's true across the entire internet Exalted community.

I actually have a theory on this: it's hard to get balanced opponents right.

In my case, it's more that Exalted, and especially its players, is pretty intimidating to run, and fairly GM-unfriendly. Everyone expects canon unless specifically told otherwise, while I'm the kind of GM for whom "canon" makes a funny bouncing ball at most. And trying to GM a setting that your players know better than yourself may well be the least fun place a GM could find himself in :smallsigh:

Plus the incredible arcane-ness of the ruleset itself. I still am not entirely sure how clinches work and haven't finished reading the hundred-plus pages of errata...

[Kyeudo]

In my case, it's more that Exalted, and especially its players, is pretty intimidating to run, and fairly GM-unfriendly. Everyone expects canon unless specifically told otherwise, while I'm the kind of GM for whom "canon" makes a funny bouncing ball at most. And trying to GM a setting that your players know better than yourself may well be the least fun place a GM could find himself in :smallsigh:

Plus the incredible arcane-ness of the ruleset itself. I still am not entirely sure how clinches work and haven't finished reading the hundred-plus pages of errata...

Pick somewhere not established very much in canon. I once ran a game on the Plain of Maltak (yes, the one from Dominic Deegan) and there was absolutely no way for the players to tell me that I was going against canon since I was the one who defined where and what was there.

Further, skip the Errata. There's alot more there than you usually need unless your players are into the super-paranoia-use-a-Combo-every-action-or-die style of play. I've been running a game for almost 2 years and my players still don't have a Combo.

[golentan]

So, as part of a theoretical optimization challenge I'm looking for a way to get infinite (well, arbitrarily high) motes. My first idea is a terrestrial akuma of malfeas. Using a combo of Jade Crucible, second medicine excellency (if desired) and Wound Closing touch, they spend 3 wp, X lethal health levels, and 2x motes, plus excellency, gaining (essence + medicine successes)X motes which may exceed their normal pool for the scene, and suffer only bashing damage which they ignore due to By Pain Reforged. Rinse and repeat, reducing so as not to spill into aggravated damage.

Obviously, the trouble is the willpower cost. Any thoughts on amelioration or ways to regain in a brief timespan?

Edit: Evil thought: if I made him an eclipse caste having crosstrained the charms, could I invoke Willpower Enhancing Spirit in response to my own self harm?

[Rikandur Azebol]

They made it so that You couldn't use Willpower Enchancing Spirit with self-inflicted harm. I were using old version of Essence Gathering Temper with it and Wound-Mending Purity Stance. Some extras attacked me, and I was renewed ! My favorite combo for Solars.^^

[lord pringle]

Is there any tiers to exalted?

[Teln]

So, as part of a theoretical optimization challenge I'm looking for a way to get infinite (well, arbitrarily high) motes. My first idea is a terrestrial akuma of malfeas. Using a combo of Jade Crucible, second medicine excellency (if desired) and Wound Closing touch, they spend 3 wp, X lethal health levels, and 2x motes, plus excellency, gaining (essence + medicine successes)X motes which may exceed their normal pool for the scene, and suffer only bashing damage which they ignore due to By Pain Reforged. Rinse and repeat, reducing so as not to spill into aggravated damage.

Obviously, the trouble is the willpower cost. Any thoughts on amelioration or ways to regain in a brief timespan?

Edit: Evil thought: if I made him an eclipse caste having crosstrained the charms, could I invoke Willpower Enhancing Spirit in response to my own self harm?

Google the Twilight Essence Reactor build. The errata have pretty much castrated it, but it might make a good starting point.



Is there any tiers to exalted?
1)Solars/Abyssals/Infernals
2)Lunars/Sidereals (at least on paper)
3)Alchemicals
4)Terrestrials
5)Fair Folk (Noble Raksha)
6)God-Blooded
7)Everyone else.

[Kylarra]

Is there any tiers to exalted?Sort of.

In terms of raw capability of exalts you've got
Solars/Evil Solars (abyssals/infernals)
Lunars
Sidereals/Alchemicals
Dragonblooded

[horngeek]

Is there any tiers to exalted?

Yes, deliberately so. The approximate order is:

Solar/Abyssal/Infernal
Lunar/Sidereal
Alchemical
Dragon-Blooded
Other Supernatural beings, dunno which order
Mortals

As said before, this is quite deliberate.

EDIT: Night'd! xD

[The Rose Dragon]

Yes, deliberately so. The approximate order is:

Solar/Abyssal/Infernal
Lunar/Sidereal
Alchemical
Dragon-Blooded
Other Supernatural beings, dunno which order
Mortals

As said before, this is quite deliberate.

There are inanimate, non-sapient rocks between spirits and mortals somewhere.

[Kylarra]

There are inanimate, non-sapient rocks between spirits and mortals somewhere.... why rocks?

[Teln]

Because they don't burn as easily as trees.

[lord pringle]

is there a way to balance the tiers through bonus points?

[Kylarra]

is there a way to balance the tiers through bonus points?Balance is not something Exalted is overly concerned with.

[Teln]

These tiers are not supposed to be balanced, for a variety of fluff reasons. If fluff reasons aren't good enough, White Wolf is the wrong gaming company for you.

[The Rose Dragon]

is there a way to balance the tiers through bonus points?

Not really, no. For a starting point, maybe, but the XP tables, the Charm efficiencies and power levels and various other factors will quickly bring them out of balance.

[lord pringle]

I just want a way to have my players not scowl.

[Kylarra]

I just want a way to have my players not scowl.I'd suggest playing as all of the same type of exalt and building your characters together within a certain tolerance of optimization.

[golentan]

They made it so that You couldn't use Willpower Enchancing Spirit with self-inflicted harm. I were using old version of Essence Gathering Temper with it and Wound-Mending Purity Stance. Some extras attacked me, and I was renewed ! My favorite combo for Solars.^^

I didn't see anything about that in the errata. I figure the word "attack" may be interpreted that way, but do we actually have word of god on this?

[Reynard]

I'd suggest playing as all of the same type of exalt and building your characters together within a certain tolerance of optimization.

Or, if not, with wildly different areas of expertise.

The Combat Monster Lunar shouldn't care overmuch if the Social Fu Solar can talk the pants off of everyone in a one-mile radius. Or that the Sidereal can bend time and space to a small degree and tow a city somewhere else.

[The Rose Dragon]

I just want a way to have my players not scowl.

Then have a single Exalt-type only game.

[Kylarra]

Or, if not, with wildly different areas of expertise.

The Combat Monster Lunar shouldn't care overmuch if the Social Fu Solar can talk the pants off of everyone in a one-mile radius. Or that the Sidereal can bend time and space to a small degree and tow a city somewhere else.
Right, each should have their own area of expertise so as to have something to distinguish themselves from the others.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I didn't see anything about that in the errata. I figure the word "attack" may be interpreted that way, but do we actually have word of god on this?

Somewhere along InkMonkeys with the ridiculous Overdrive mechanics.

[golentan]

Somewhere along InkMonkeys with the ridiculous Overdrive mechanics.

So, they say that for Essence Gathering Temper, but not for Willpower Enhancing Spirit.

I know I'm nitpicking, but I do need a means of getting all that willpower.

[horngeek]

But I like the Overdrive mechanics!

[golentan]

But I like the Overdrive mechanics!

I think most of us do, horngeek. I think most of us do.

[Xefas]

Speaking of the Ink Monkeys, we'd been getting at least a few articles a month since Vol 3, semi regularly, but its been a whole month (exactly?) since vol 46 came out. What do you suppose the wait is for? Celestial Directions: Autochthonia? Sorcery overhaul? The Wyld Shaping errata is that extensive? Broken Winged Crane II: Revenge of Metagaos?

(Oh please god the last one)

EDIT: Adding a picture of Metagaos for emphasis:
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/180px-376Metagross.png

[vegetalss4]

Xefas I believe that they have confirmed that they currently are working on Compass: Autochtonia

[Xefas]

Xefas I believe that they have confirmed that they currently are working on Compass: Autochtonia

:smallfrown: But...but Metagaaaaaoooos.

Also, what level of mutation do you think is fair for a Slaanesh-esque bishounen gender fusion that gives you the full suite of functioning naughty bits and circumvents the few charms/abilities that have penalties based on the target's sexual orientation (such as Warm Faced Seduction Style)?

[SurlySeraph]

I'm hoping for more thorough Sidereal errata, but Compass: Autobot seems to be the answer.

As for the mutation, I have no idea.

[meschlum]

It's a bit slower, but does allow more or less unlimited Essence storage and access:

1) Find a noble Fair Folk
2) Make them create a Grace for you (they rarely refuse)
3) Obtain a 4-dot Oneiromantic spell
3.a: Easy mode: Mug a newly created noble Fair Folk
3.b: Hard mode: Go on two shaping quests against the Unshaped, and win.
4) Reforge the spell into an essence battery (specifics below)
4.a: Easy mode: Have it forged that way from the start
4.b: Slow mode: Convince a noble Fair Folk to reforge it
5) Activate the spell near an inhabited area
6) Forget about it for an arbitrary amount of time (up to one year)
7) Collect the spell and use it to gain motes


'Essence Battery' Oneiromantic spell
Assumption of the Living Kingdom (will affect an entire city, up to 100.000 people)
Heart Stealing Kiss (drain Willpower once per scene from everyone in the area of effect who isn't praying to you at the top of their lungs while standing on a bucket)
Adored by All the Worlds (attract a constant flow of new servants into the area, so the Battery can feed).

This spell will quickly drain the willpower of everyone in range, then keep them vegetative, while converting their souls into motes. At most, it can accumulate around 100.000 motes per day (when triggered, it can produce 4 or 5 times as much, draining all the willpower from people nearby).

Obtaining the motes in the Battery is a Speed 6 action, they are preserved for up to 1 year before the spell needs to be cast once more (for 25 motes and 2 gossamer).


Fair Folk are weak when directly dealing with Exalts, but their ability to mess with mortals is impressive - and Grace magic that can rewrite reality over a range of miles is available at character creation (which may be more an issue with Grace magic than with Fair Folk).

[Tavar]

Also, what level of mutation do you think is fair for a Slaanesh-esque bishounen gender fusion that gives you the full suite of functioning naughty bits and circumvents the few charms/abilities that have penalties based on the target's sexual orientation (such as Warm Faced Seduction Style)?
That's probably an abomination, or whatever's one step down from that.

[Xefas]

That's probably an abomination, or whatever's one step down from that.

So being both genders is on par with unrestricted flight or being functionally unkillable by any means? :smallconfused:

[Tavar]

I was basing the cost more on the interaction with some charms, and putting it in line with Multiple Limbs Abomination, or the various Blights.

[tribble]

So being both genders is on par with unrestricted flight or being functionally unkillable by any means? :smallconfused:

It's on par with having an extra head or being covered with (and full of) BEES.:smalleek:

[Jokasti]

(and full of) BEES OWLS.:smalleek:
Fixed that for ya.

[Reynard]

Hooray for glorious kill-combos. Using this should be only done with your STs permission. Seriously.

Preparation step one: Get a combo of (Dawn Solution) Peony Blossom Attack + (Dawn Solution) Blazing Solar Bolt. And the First Excellency, if you feel like it.

Step one: Go and stand on a hill, mountain, something big. Activate a trio of Scene-Long charms, Unsurpassed (Sight) Discipline, Unsurpassed (Hearing and Touch) Discipline, and Unsurpassed (Smell and Taste) Discipline. Also, Eye of the UCS if you want to overkill it.

Step two: Make those awareness rolls, looking for enemies. If any exist, you should find them, unless you're very, very unlucky.

Step three: Activate the combo. Pay a total of 8 motes (Plus any excellency dice), 2 wp.

Step four:
http://content.photos-room.com/previews/Waste_of_Existence_2_by_ChrisCold.jpg
Note that; A) You're at the very center of that violence, and that B) Only enemies are effected by the golden death wave.

Step four: Rest in the knowledge that pretty much everything hostile to you on this plane of existence is dead.

[Jokasti]

Stuff
Only 100?
@Reyn: It really is too bad that there are other planes though.

[Reynard]

Oh, if you went to Malfeas and had that artifact that lets you see through walls, you could kill all the demons.

All of them.

[Yuki Akuma]

You'd need to be able to see through more than just walls to kill every demon in Malfaes.

[Reynard]

Well, it's actually 'any obstruction', so the artifact is still all you need.

[The Rose Dragon]

Hooray for glorious kill-combos. Using this should be only done with your STs permission. Seriously.

Preparation step one: Get a combo of (Dawn Solution) Peony Blossom Attack + (Dawn Solution) Blazing Solar Bolt. And the First Excellency, if you feel like it.

Preparation Step One (actual): Read the combo rules. Realize both Charms are Simple Charms and cannot be combo'd together.

[Reynard]

Preparation Step One (actual): Read the combo rules. Realize both Charms are Simple Charms and cannot be combo'd together.

Ah, damnit. Well, I'm relieved, becuase this is a Kill all of Existence combo that can be done at chargen. Nice spot.

[The Rose Dragon]

Ah, damnit. Well, I'm relieved, becuase this is a Kill all of Existence combo that can be done at chargen. Nice spot.

Two other fun visuals you cannot create due to combo rules:

1) Iron Raptor Technique + Peony Blossom Attack: send copies of your weapon flying towards enemies around you.

2) Iron Raptor Technique + Blazing Solar Bolt: send your weapon flying while it sends beams of holy light at your opponent.

[Reynard]

Two other fun visuals you cannot create due to combo rules:

1) Iron Raptor Technique + Peony Blossom Attack: send copies of your weapon flying towards enemies around you.

2) Iron Raptor Technique + Blazing Solar Bolt: send your weapon flying while it sends beams of holy light at your opponent.

Yeah, this started as a combo of Peony Blossom and Iron Raptor.

Really, if BSB hadn't been errata'd to INFINITE MELEE RANGE, this wouldn't be as stupidly broken. It'd still be Ess x10 of massive violence, but that's much, much better than wiping out planes of existence, 4-5 times a day.

[Kyeudo]

Sometimes the Scroll of Errata needs its own Scroll of Errata.

[Tavar]

Isn't there already some kind of creation-ending punch combo? Using Sidereal charms, I think, but still.

[SurlySeraph]

Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick. Requires Essence 6, the SMA Charcoal March of Spiders, and probably a custom Awareness charm.

[Xefas]

New Ink Monkeys. A staff-using Terrestrial Martial Arts Style. Woooo. It can also be used with the Grand Goremaul, so maybe there's some synergy with the Earth Immaculate Style if said Immaculate wants some extra oomph against ghosts.

[Reynard]

New Ink Monkeys. A staff-using Terrestrial Martial Arts Style. Woooo. It can also be used with the Grand Goremaul, so maybe there's some synergy with the Earth Immaculate Style if said Immaculate wants some extra oomph against ghosts.

Ignore it's existence. It's a terribly written style.

From one of the guys from Scroll of the Monk, the same guy who said that the weaknesses of enemies attacks weren't stunt-fodder unless you were in the form charm of one of his styles.

Okat, a more thorough read-through and... guh. Terrible. It's as broken as the Jade Prison, and just as sensible.

[Xefas]

Ignore it's existence. It's a terribly written style.

I admit, I'm not fond of too many charms in one place ending in the same Standard Exalted Qualifier, or whatever you'd like to call the Method/Prana/Atemi/Kata/etc, and this one has two Kata and two Atemi right next to each other. I mean "Ivory Grace Atemi" is pretty cool, but putting "Crushing Pestle Atemi" right there kinda saps some of the awesome from it, especially when it could have been like "Crushing Pestle Strike" or something.

And I'm not too sure about the whole "Pestle" thing to begin with. When I saw the name, I immediately thought "Wood Style". Ivory is associated with elephants, and thus the jungle, and thus the Eastern Direction, and "Pestle" is easily associated with herbalism, as it's more often used to describe the little grinding tool used to mash herbs than it is for its other definition, which is a verb "to grind".

I think an Earth style should evoke "Earth" in its name, at the very least.

[Reynard]

I admit, I'm not fond of too many charms in one place ending in the same Standard Exalted Qualifier, or whatever you'd like to call the Method/Prana/Atemi/Kata/etc, and this one has two Kata and two Atemi right next to each other. I mean "Ivory Grace Atemi" is pretty cool, but putting "Crushing Pestle Atemi" right there kinda saps some of the awesome from it, especially when it could have been like "Crushing Pestle Strike" or something.

And I'm not too sure about the whole "Pestle" thing to begin with. When I saw the name, I immediately thought "Wood Style". Ivory is associated with elephants, and thus the jungle, and thus the Eastern Direction, and "Pestle" is easily associated with herbalism, as it's more often used to describe the little grinding tool used to mash herbs than it is for its other definition, which is a verb "to grind".

I think an Earth style should evoke "Earth" in its name, at the very least.

I didn't just mean the fluff. It's horrible mechanically. It's form charm is ridiculously powerful.

[The Rose Dragon]

I didn't just mean the fluff. It's horrible mechanically. It's form chamr is ridiculous.

Its Form Charm has only one sticking point for me: the DV penalty negator, which synergizes too well with the Extra Action Charm. If it weren't for that single part, it would be much better.

[Xefas]

I didn't just mean the fluff. It's horrible mechanically. It's form charm is ridiculously powerful.

And? I don't think anyone plays Exalted for its glorious balance. It is my humble theory that we all came for the proper nouns. Proper nouns being an area that this style deals poorly in.

[The Rose Dragon]

And? I don't think anyone plays Exalted for its glorious balance. It is my humble theory that we all came for the proper nouns. Proper nouns being an area that this style deals poorly in.

Kata and Atemi are not proper nouns.

[Xefas]

Kata and Atemi are not proper nouns.

They are when they're used in a name.

[Kyeudo]

And? I don't think anyone plays Exalted for its glorious balance.

Some of us insane homebrewers try and fix that problem. It's just that it requires a total systemic overhaul to clear away mountains of tiny hiccups that disrupt the whole system into paranoia combat.

[Mattarias, King.]

So, speaking of game balance, if, say, I'm designing my own gaming system, would the general consensus be a resounding "NO!" to things like perfect defenses and all that?

Not trying to get in depth or anything, just a quick question, since it seems like perfect defenses seem to be the root of all the balance troubles Exalted sees..

[Yuki Akuma]

Perfect Defenses aren't the root of all problems. It's the fact that the designers expect all PCs to have them and therefore make stupidly overpowered "soul-fall-off" attacks that must be perfected or you die instantly.

[Mattarias, King.]

Perfect Defenses aren't the root of all problems. It's the fact that the designers expect all PCs to have them and therefore make stupidly overpowered "soul-fall-off" attacks that must be perfected or you die instantly.

Aaah, alright then. :smallconfused: A trap one should be wary of falling into.

[Teln]

There's also the fact that there are easily accessible weapons capable of killing you in one hit--anything with "grand" in the name backed up by an Excellency, for example. With a grand goremaul, you won't even need that Excellency.

[Tavar]

There's also the fact that some Perfects are so cheap they're pretty much the most cost effective tactic you can use. Seven Shadow's Evasion, for example.

[Mattarias, King.]

Alright, so it's a lot of things, and generally a lot of sticky situations I don't want to deal with, then. Good to know.

[a_humble_lich]

I think the idea was supposed to be that the Flaws of Invulnerability would keep you from using Perfect Defenses all the time. However, the flaws are not nearly bad enough for that. There should be a big downside to use a perfect defense, e.g. a high mote cost, you cannot attack when you use one.

[Teln]

I heard that in First Edition, PDs cost Willpower.

[Tavar]

Actually, the flaws are supposed to only come up rarely. Maybe once a story unless the character really fights it.

[The Rose Dragon]

I heard that in First Edition, PDs cost Willpower.

In First Edition, though, persistent defenses were much more powerful than perfect defenses, because of how defenses were rolled.

[a_humble_lich]

Actually, the flaws are supposed to only come up rarely. Maybe once a story unless the character really fights it.

Are you talking about Limit break Flaws or Flaws of Invulnerability. Because the later should come up every time you use a perfect defense.

[Kyeudo]

So, speaking of game balance, if, say, I'm designing my own gaming system, would the general consensus be a resounding "NO!" to things like perfect defenses and all that?

Not trying to get in depth or anything, just a quick question, since it seems like perfect defenses seem to be the root of all the balance troubles Exalted sees..

Here's my in-depth analysis of the problem and my view of how to solve it:

Some thoughts I've had on the effect of Perfect Defenses on the game of Exalted:

I've been spending alot of time thinking about the basic mechanics of Exalted (you've probably noticed :smalltongue:) and I've come to think that perhaps the existance of Perfect Defenses are to blame for a good deal of the mechanical bugs that exist in the game as it stands. The thing that got me pointed in this direction was the Ink Monkeys. They have devoted so much effort into new Charms that essentially do at least one of two things: Make existing Charms not count as Charm activations or make existing Charms essentially free. My mostly irrational hatred of the Ink Monkeys delayed the realization somewhat, but I eventually asked myself "Why?"

The only answer I could come up with is: Because they are trying to encourage a play style that is at odds with the natural inclinations created by the rules. The play style they want to push? They want people to be able to throw a ton of Essence into big, flashy attacks and be able to get away with it. That's an idea I can get behind. In a way, that's what Exalted is about - the freedom to go as big as you want.

So, why do they focus on these two solutions? Why free Charm activations and free Charm costs? I can only say because of the existance of Perfect Defenses.

Now, don't get me wrong. Perfect Defenses are an essential part of the setting and so must remain in the rules system. Perfect Defenses answer the question "How did the Exalted stop the Primordials from just killing them outright?" I would posit that taking Perfect Defenses from Exalted would strip away part of the something that makes Exalted the game it is.

Still, the current niche occupied by Perfect Defenses forces the rest of gameplay to conform around them. Not that I'm saying something that we don't already know, but Perfect Defenses have turned motes into your HP guage and your Charm Activation into the most precious resource at your disposal. This of course, leads to the same type of question: "Why is that?"

Well, I see a few reasons, but the most critical reason I see is the origins of the rules system. Exalted was initially an experimental venture by White Wolf. It wasn't necessarily going to sell well, so devoting a huge amount of effort to making a customized rule set just for this new game would have been a stupid move. So, instead they took their existing system, added the fluff and stylistic elements they needed to make the fluff work, drew some cool art, and did enough playtesting that no obvious bugs were showing up and off to the printer the game went.

Why I call this the main reason for the problem is because the system they used as their base was the original Storyteller system, which may as well have been built to punish players from resolving things with combat. Everything I've heard about the original World of Darkness amounts to "Unless you are a Werewolf, even a combat-specced character doesn't know if he'd come out of the next fight alive." Combat was made to be short, risky, and brutal. This is great for games about intrigue and character development. Not so great for a game where a major theme is problem-solving by punching people in the face.

During playtesting, this underlying uncertainty that existed in combat was probably masked by the existance of the Perfect Defense. Because every character essentially has a "No, I don't get hit" button, it doesn't matter how brutal the combat system is. As long as a character has Essence and is aware of the attack, he will not die. And so, things continued onward. The Storyteller system got an update to its combat mechanics, namely the addition of static defenses and a streamlining of turn structure, and so we got Second Edition. However, the additions and streamlining never really addressed the underlying uncertainty because that uncertainty is considered a good thing in the World of Darkness, where most of the playtesting probably went on.

So, Perfect Defenses are essentially hiding the real problems with the combat system. They are potent enough to make up for most of the design problems, but these design problems mean that using a perfect constantly is a necessity against any opponent of reasonable threat level.

Now that I'm through telling you what you probably already know, how do we fix it? Well, we have to attack those underlying uncertainties in an effort to make using a Perfect Defense a less necessary and possibly even a less desirable choice.

The first uncertainty is the uncertainty of survival. As things stand, one hit in Exalted can kill you outright. Most artifact weapons are damaging enough and soak is poor enough that a single hit can kill outright. Even if it doesn't kill you, it still will inflict wound penalties that make further hits more certain and future attacks less likely to succeed, begining a slow spiral into the death of your character. Therefore, you cannot let an attack hit.

The second uncertainty is the uncertainty of a sufficient defense. Suppose we have two mortals, Alice and Bob, duking it out to see who's boss. Alice and Bob on different ticks. If Alice attacks, she compromises her defense. The more attacks she makes, the larger the compromise in her defenses. Because of the supremacy of defense, each attack is more likely to fail than succeed. Unless Alice gets lucky, Bob will get to attack and now Alice's guard is weakened. If Alice was too aggressive, she essentially hands Bob free hits and dies. However, there's not much fun in using Guard actions incessantly and an offense of some kind is necessary to win any fight, so staying on the defensive will not win you a fight. So, Alice is stuck either making single attacks or maybe a small flurry and praying that her opponent doesn't get lucky or launching large flurries and hoping to kill her opponent fast. In the end, using the best offense availible to her is stupid as it denies her any hope of maintaining a sufficient defense.

If you add Charms in, the problem gets more complex, but remains there, just in a sligtly different form. Let us assume, for the moment, that both attack pools and DVs are both equally boostable. Now, we have two young Exalts, Alice and Bob, fighting it out for whatever reason. Alice is currently acting before Bob. Both Alice and Bob decide to use their Charm for the action to enhance their attacks. Alice uses Hungry Tiger Technique and Bob chooses to use the Second Melee Excellency. When Alice attacks, Bob knows she won't be rolling more dice than he has in his defense pool, so he has options. He can either trust his DVs or he can blow a few motes on using the Excellency to buff his DV. Either way, Alice needs a fairly lucky shot (a really lucky shot if he used the Excellency) for her tactic to yield any fruit. Meanwhile, she has lowered her DV and removed almost all of her options to add to her defense. Now Bob's attack, even without the Excellency, has a very solid chance of hitting. With the Excellency, it's almost guaranteed. By using a purely offensive Charm, Alice has denied herself any hope of maintaining a sufficient defense (If Alice had used the Second Melee Excellency to boost her attack, we'd be right back to the situation in the preceding paragraph: two characters of equal offensive and defensive potential just waiting for a lucky break or a blunder to capitalize on). This is why that one Charm activation is a critical resource.

The final uncertainty is the problem of resource management. While every game system is going to have this to some extent, each character in Exalted has only X motes at any given time. If you get in combat with another character, the winner of the conflict is the person able to maintain that sufficient defense the longest and the person most able to maintain that sufficient defense is the one with the most resources. However, most characters cannot determine the size of the other character's mote pool, so they can't be entirely certain that they are the ones currently ahead in motes. Each mote diverted away from maintaining a defense might just be the mote that puts you behind the other character and may mean that you are the one to find yourself defenseless first.

Added together, these issues mean that defense is the Alpha and Omega of combat. He who defends best the longest wins, and the best defense is a Perfect Defense.

This is why the Ink Monkeys spend so much time on what is essentially fancy ways to get motes. Motes earmarked for offensive Charms only can't be used on that Perfect Defense anyway, so why not spend them to boost your attack? Charms that don't use up your Charm activation for the round won't leave you defenseless, so why not add a little extra kick to your next attack? This brings back the flashy, over-the-top action that full-on paranoia Perfect Spamming strips from the game.

Such approaches, however, aren't addressing the real issues that lie at the heart of the system. As someone pointed out to me, the Ink Monkeys haven't been given the go-ahead to completely rewrite the system, so they do what they can. However, I'm a guy who likes to homebrew with next to no social life. I've got the time and inclination to at least try and homebrew and houserule a fix to the real center of the problem.

So, I have a few ideas on where to start. In no particularly significant order, here they are:

Make Exalts be able to take a hit and keep on going. If you had a guarantee that a hit wouldn't be the end of the world, you would be more inclined to settle for a defense that was less than perfect. Take D&D for an example. D&D characters do not spend most of their time in combat fighting defensively or running away from threats, because they either have enough hit points (fighters) or enough defenses (wizard) that you are more or less guaranteed to survive until next round. So, you see D&D characters charging into the middle of monsters, taking risks, and using character resources (spell slots, manuvers, etc) on the offense instead of on defense. This doesn't mean they don't take appropriate cautions like buffing, five-foot stepping out of threatened squares, and so on, just that they can put themselves in a position where they might get hurt without having a spare character sheet in their backpacks. To allow Exalts to take a hit, Health Levels and Soak have to start pulling their weight.

Add risky but rewarding defensive options to the Charm sets. Once a single hit is not the end of a fight, having options that defend the character solidly without being perfect will become useful. If those options are less expensive than a Perfect Defense, successfully using one of them instead will put the character ahead in the mote attrition game.

Perhaps loosen up the restrictions on Charm actions. If instead of one Charm per DV refresh, perhaps make it one Charm per dice action. That way, using a Charm to boost your attack doesn't leave you defenseless. You could, for example, use Hungry Tiger Technique to supplement one attack in your flurry, buy a few dice for your other attacks with the First Melee Excellency, and then when you are attacked you could respond with Shadow Over Water or Solar Counterattack. This would still leave Combos useful, as you couldn't use both Hungry Tiger Technique and the First Melee Excellency at once or Shadow Over Water and Solar Counterattack against the same attack.

The last idea I have is to add some of the Ink Monkeys better Overdrive (ug, I hate that keyword) Charms to every Charm set. Having a set of motes that are only for throwing out awesome attack Charms would most definately encourage the use of Charms on the offensive.

So, that's what I've thought about the system. I like picking other peoples' brains, so what do you guys think? Do my suggestions actually address the problems? Any problems you forsee with my solutions? Any solutions you see that I missed?


TL DR version: Perfect Defenses hide mechanical problems by being so awesome. I've got some ideas on how to fix them. What do you think?




Are you talking about Limit break Flaws or Flaws of Invulnerability. Because the later should come up every time you use a perfect defense.

I beg to differ. Setting up a situation in which an Exalt is stripped of his ability to use a perfect defense should be difficult and require planning. An Exalt should not have to go out of his way to make his perfect defense work.

[Tavar]

Are you talking about Limit break Flaws or Flaws of Invulnerability. Because the later should come up every time you use a perfect defense.

What Kyeudo said. Though perhaps I phrased my answer incorrectly. The Flaws of Invulnerability come up every time you use a perfect, as they are part of the perfect. They only 'activate', and stop your character from using the perfect in very, very contrived circumstances, or if the character is built at cross-purposes with himself(a distance fighter with a Valor flaw of invulnerability). There's more of a discussion on it here (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Michael_Goodwin).

[Mattarias, King.]

Here's my in-depth analysis of the problem and my view of how to solve it:


:smallconfused: Ah-hah. I have to say, that's the most in-depth look at the flaws of Exalted as a system I've ever seen. The way you describe it, I really like your proposed way of fixing things, honestly. From the standpoint of someone making their own system, this is all great to know.

Fun fact: Before I learned about Exalted, my world was originally going to be called "Creation" and have the cardinal directions correspond to the classical elements. :smalltongue: Curse you, White Wolf!

[The Rose Dragon]

...have the cardinal directions correspond to the classical elements. :smalltongue: Curse you, White Wolf!

So like the Chinese mythology?

((Though it's not classical elements so much as it is the Five Steps.))

[Mattarias, King.]

So like the Chinese mythology?

((Though it's not classical elements so much as it is the Five Steps.))

I guess? :smallconfused: Honestly, I haven't actually looked into Chinese myth much for inspiration. I've just always associated the South with deserts and fire, so the North has to be the opposite of that, and then you have Earth and Wind, which are West and East respectively. Arbitrary, I guess, but maybe I read something once that inspired that, though I couldn't tell you what, honestly.

[horngeek]

With me, it's the other way around. The South is cold, the North is hot. And humid.

This may have something to do with the fact I live in Australia. :smalltongue:

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm just saying, it's not something White Wolf came up with on their own. It has basis in real-world mythologies, so no one will accuse you of plagiarizing White Wolf if you go ahead with the elemental directions thing.

[The Glyphstone]

With me, it's the other way around. The South is cold, the North is hot. And humid.

This may have something to do with the fact I live in Australia. :smalltongue:

Australia would make an awesome campaign setting all by itself.

[Lord Raziere]

Australia would make an awesome campaign setting all by itself.

there is already something like that. Dark Sun, I believe it is called.

[The Rose Dragon]

Australia would make an awesome campaign setting all by itself.

Assuming any character (or player) would ever survive the myriad venomous animals.

[Mattarias, King.]

I'm just saying, it's not something White Wolf came up with on their own. It has basis in real-world mythologies, so no one will accuse you of plagiarizing White Wolf if you go ahead with the elemental directions thing.

:smallconfused: Alright then, well, cool. I guess that's that. I still probably need a new name, eh? :smalltongue:


Australia would make an awesome campaign setting all by itself.


there is already something like that. Dark Sun, I believe it is called.

I thought it was called the downUnderdark? :smalltongue: