General Exalted Discussion: There's a God for that! Except for Sorcery, of course. [Archive] - Page 6

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-06, 01:46 PM

Wait, we're doing tables now? :smallconfused:

Player|ST?|Player?|1st Choice Exalted|2nd Choice Exalted|3rd Choice Exalted| Favoured Game type?

TheCountAlucard|Yes| Yes|Solar|Infernal|Abyssal|Unsure

Well, from an optimizing point of view, that's where BP aren't going to be well spent. The best thing to do with BP is to buy up Favored Abilities and Charms for those Favored Abilities. Gets you the most bang for your buck and the Essence 3 stuff isn't that more amazing than the Essence 2 stuff.In fact, in an Abyssals game where the ST gave us 75 exp to start out, I ran the numbers, and found out that for my crafter, it was way cheaper to buy the Essence with experience and my Abilities with the bonus points. Only downside was that I then had to get the high-end Charms I wanted with experience as well. :smallfrown: Still more than worth it, though. :smallamused:

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-06, 01:52 PM

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-06, 01:56 PM

Yes to STing?

DO IT! DO IT RIGHT NOW!I am... for my RL group. :smallredface: Sorry to disappoint. :smallfrown:

golentan

2011-01-06, 02:07 PM

No, I think you just summed it up. Though scroll of fallen races might have more, I haven't looked through it much.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-06, 02:25 PM

I am... for my RL group. :smallredface: Sorry to disappoint. :smallfrown:

Then you should not say yes, cause I'm pretty sure that's for PbP gaming purposes only. :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-06, 02:37 PM

Then you should not say yes, cause I'm pretty sure that's for PbP gaming purposes only. :smalltongue:Well, I'm not saying I'm not going to ever ST something on PbP, just that I'm still prepping for a game IRL as it is. :smalltongue:

Jokasti

2011-01-06, 04:02 PM

Tables pretty much dead, unless someone wants to compile it and send it to me or something. I'll keep it updated in the first post of the next thread for easier access.
Also, I guess I'll just start a new game.... Time to peruse MoEPs to see what I'm feeling like. Sorry, Reynad. :smalltrollface:

Xefas

2011-01-06, 04:27 PM

Also, I guess I'll just start a new game.... Time to peruse MoEPs to see what I'm feeling like.

A full circle of Adamant-Caste Akuma on a quest to learn Sidereal Martial Arts so they can go back in time and resurrect their fallen comrade. Along the way, they teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship and convince the Celestines to go to group counseling in order to shake their addiction.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-06, 04:28 PM

A full circle of Adamant-Caste Akuma on a quest to learn Sidereal Martial Arts so they can go back in time and resurrect their fallen comrade. Along the way, they teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship and convince the Celestines to go to group counseling in order to shake their addiction.

OK, as fun an anime as that would make, I can never see myself playing that and not getting annoyed by the tongue-in-cheek premise.

Jokasti

2011-01-06, 04:31 PM

DragonSinged

2011-01-07, 04:20 AM

Why are you saving BP until you've bought everything else? That means you won't have any Essence 3 charms. :smallfrown:

Erm, when I said I was saving my BP what I meant was that I was not going to use them just yet, until I had finalized an end result for everything for this character, virtues, charms, all that included, then go back and decide where the BP would be best spent. I'm also not certain what you mean about meaning I won't have any Essence 3 charms, but I haven't really gotten to Charms yet, and to be honest, the vast array of options kind of scares me. I have no idea what I'm going to end up taking there. :smalleek:

a_humble_lich

2011-01-07, 04:41 AM

... I'm also not certain what you mean about meaning I won't have any Essence 3 charms, but I haven't really gotten to Charms yet, and to be honest, the vast array of options kind of scares me. I have no idea what I'm going to end up taking there. :smalleek:

Many charms, especially the ones that you end up really wanting, have a prerequisite of essence 3, and the only way to get that is with bonus points. On the other hand buying up essence costs a lot of bonus point, which are often needed elsewhere. Thus the perpetual dilemma of point based systems; you never have enough points.:smallsmile:

As for charms to take, I wouldn't worry. Pick stuff that you think looks cool. My only real recommendation is not to forget excellencies. They are easy to over look because they seem boring, but in fact they are quite useful.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-07, 05:40 AM

A full circle of Adamant-Caste Akuma on a quest to learn Sidereal Martial Arts so they can go back in time and resurrect their fallen comrade. Along the way, they teach the Ebon Dragon the true meaning of friendship and convince the Celestines to go to group counseling in order to shake their addiction.
I support this!
I have a wrench wench solar with a warstrider beamklaive who needs an over the top game.
Or a ten limbed alchemical...

horngeek

2011-01-07, 05:44 AM

Pfft. I should just make an Eclipse Caste or Twilight Caste based off the 11th Doctor sometime, if we're doing expies.

Except I'm already doing a Scion based off him.

Meh. Doctor's awesome enough. :smallbiggrin:

Or are we not doing expies? :smallconfused:

Lix Lorn

2011-01-07, 08:22 AM

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-07, 08:24 AM

I've got a Kaylee expy I should be doing.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-07, 08:37 AM

I don't think you get to expy someone from something you haven't even seen. :smalltongue:

Tavar

2011-01-07, 09:28 AM

As long as we're discussing possible game idea...

The only real way to deal with Autochthon's crippling disease is to break his fetich and dissect him, Yozi style to pull out the source of the imperfection. But then, whatever flaw is causing the Gremlin Syndrome and the Void Cancer bubbling at his heart may just be the love he has for his creations.

So ditching it may in fact be a bad idea. But then, what can be done for Auto if not that? It's surgery or death, and when a Primordial dies, bad things happen. Reality-shattering bad things!

Pretty much, you'd need to Fetich Kill him, then extract the clauses in his Charmset that say 'If Autochthon ever suffers Fetich Death, his sickness gets even worse' before he has a chance to properly reconstruct it.

So, you basically have five days to cure Autochthon before you're dealing with the Engine of Extinction, have fun!

We'll need five defilers, twenty Twilights and however many Orihalcum and Starmetal castes we can salvage. The name of the game is open-Primordial surgery. Let's boogie.

(Trauma Center: Primordials is go.)

Thelas

2011-01-07, 09:33 AM

{TABLE]Player | ST? | Player? | Exalt 1 | Exalt 2 | Exalt 3
Thelas | (gamesplayed>=2)?printf("Maybe"):printf("No") | Yes | Solars | Sidereals once they're fixed | More Solars[/TABLE]
Pardon my C, it's been a while since I've used it so that's probably wrong.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-07, 09:35 AM

Or you can calcify him into something sensible and less stupid rather than a sentient Charm tree. Then you can treat him like an actual being, rather than a living Essence pool with Charms. :smalltongue:

Until then, the only solution is to keep killing his souls one by one until you can find out which one is causing his need to evolve beyond his weaknesses.

Jokasti

2011-01-07, 10:02 AM

tonberrian

2011-01-07, 10:06 AM

Or (and this is a really radical idea here) you could just wake him up and get him to Creation and the Wyld and put the robocancer back into remission. I'm sure that Autochthon would prefer that he not be cut open without his permission.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-07, 10:16 AM

I'm sure that Autochthon would prefer that he not be cut open without his permission.

Psh. As if Solars ever cared about what others think.

tonberrian

2011-01-07, 10:32 AM

Psh. As if Solars ever cared about what others think.

They should try it just once, if only for the novelty of it.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-07, 10:37 AM

They should try it just once, if only for the novelty of it.

Silence, you pleb! Do not presume to tell your superiors what they should or should not do! :smalltongue:

*soulforges tonberrian into soulsteel*

tonberrian

2011-01-07, 10:48 AM

Silence, you pleb! Do not presume to tell your superiors what they should or should not do! :smalltongue:

*soulforges tonberrian into soulsteel*

As long as I'm turned into a knife, I'd be happy.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-07, 10:49 AM

As long as I'm turned into a knife, I'd be happy.

No, you get turned into a spoon. Your children will use that spoon for breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper.

tonberrian

2011-01-07, 10:52 AM

No, you get turned into a spoon. Your children will use that spoon for breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper.

The horror! The pure, unadulterated, PG-13 horror!

And the NC-17 kink!

Jokasti

2011-01-07, 10:52 AM

No, you get turned into a spoon. Your children will use that spoon for breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper.

That has some... Unfortunate Implications.

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-07, 11:56 AM

As long as it's not a soulsteel marital aid. :smalleek: Oh, the Essence loss!

Also, one of my friends kinda wants to run a Sidereals game "buddy-cop" style. :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-01-07, 12:13 PM

Why not? Now with the power of 10 men! :smalltongue:

Drascin

2011-01-07, 01:29 PM

Silence, you pleb! Do not presume to tell your superiors what they should or should not do! :smalltongue:

*soulforges tonberrian into soulsteel*

See? Stuff like this is why everyone hates you Solars :smalltongue:.

Kyeudo

2011-01-07, 03:51 PM

*punches Drascin into Malfeas*

a_humble_lich

2011-01-07, 05:07 PM

Hail the Solar Lawgivers! As you humble loyal servant you should know I have no plans at all of destroying you all and locking you in a Jade Prison beneath the ocean!

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-07, 05:09 PM

Hail the Solar Lawgivers! As you humble loyal servant you should know I have no plans at all of destroying you all and locking you in a Jade Prison beneath the ocean!(uses high-Essence Investigation Charms to figure out exactly what's going on) Well, that wasn't hard at all. :smalltongue:

Drascin

2011-01-07, 05:11 PM

*punches Drascin into Malfeas*

So I'm changing a world ruled by 300 psychopathic, egomaniacal, tantrum-prone children for a world ruled by about 30 psychopathic, egomaniacal, tantrum-prone children that is also filled with demons?

...well, I guess technically it IS worse, in the way that being burned to death is worse than being shot...

:smalltongue:

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-07, 05:14 PM

So I'm changing a world ruled by 300 GLORIOUS, SHINING, PERFECT children for a world ruled by about 30 psychopathic, egomaniacal, tantrum-prone children that is also filled with demons?

...well, I guess technically it IS worse, in the way that being burned to death is worse than being SHOWERED IN CANDY AND MONEY...

:smalltongue:

Indeed it is much worse, and that is why no one should ever free the Yozis from their prison, where they were imprisoned by our previous incarnations in their eternal wisdom.

horngeek

2011-01-07, 05:16 PM

To be fair, at least some of the Solars actually, you know, cared about ordinary humans.

The Yozis do not.

Xefas

2011-01-07, 05:23 PM

To be fair, at least some of the Solars actually, you know, cared about ordinary humans. The Yozis do not.

Of course some of the Yozi care about ordinary humans. They just aren't human, so the way they express their care isn't identical to the way a human would.

For instance, Adorjan expresses her caring for humans by murdering them. Sure, humans don't want that, but that's because they don't understand. It's like forcing a child to eat their vegetables when they don't want to. They don't understand how their mother can connect "I love you" and "Eat these horrible things you don't like". She has a perfectly logical reasoning, but a small child can't completely grasp it.

The mother isn't a monster for forcing their child to eat vegetables. She's just operating on a different plane of thought. So too is a Yozi operating on a different plane of thought than a human.

Tavar

2011-01-07, 10:57 PM

Just because somethings operating at another level doesn't give it a free pass, though. To use your example, an insane mother might kill her children because, in her mind, it's better for them that way. The fact that she's a mother doesn't automatically make that the right thing to do to children.

Similarly, it's telling that the Primordials didn't agree on their treatment of Creation. In fact, in addition to Gaia and Auto-bot, SWLiHN was also sympathetic to the god's cause, but her nature forced her to follow he-who-became-Malfeas.

Xefas

2011-01-07, 11:12 PM

Just because somethings operating at another level doesn't give it a free pass, though.

I'm not saying anything about a "free pass". Obviously, a person should do what they can to protect their interests. It's the only thing you really can do. Humans don't want to die, so they should do what they can to keep from dying - even if it means defending themselves against someone with good intentions. I'm simply stating that it would be a mistake to confuse outright malevolence with a benevolent mind that is alien to human understanding.

To quote George Carlin: "You know where the 'sanctity of life' came from? We made it up. You know why? Because we're alive. Self interest. Living people have a strong incentive to promote the idea that somehow life is sacred. The only people who care about it are the living. So the whole thing grows out of a biased point of view."

Adorjan obviously doesn't see life in the same way that humans do. And how could she? She's a Primordial, and a meteorological effect, and a concept, and an entire hierarchy of souls.

If she tries to kill you out of love, should you try to protect your self-interest in life and stop her? Yes. Is she still doing it out of unequivocal love and not any kind of hatred or malevolence? Absolutely.

Now, the Ebon Dragon. F*** that guy.

golentan

2011-01-07, 11:51 PM

Poor SWLiHN, just wants things to work right, and has that massive crush on Malfeas. And poor Malfeas, nobody will leave him to dance in peace, and they don't like his rules even when he tries his hardest. And poor kimbery, even if she is a boundless reservoir of hate, she does love people so and wants them to be better. And poor Szoreny. And... You know what, I feel sorry for all the yozis. I agree they shouldn't be let out, but I feel sorry for them nonetheless.

One exception.

Now, the Ebon Dragon. F*** that guy.

Oh my yes.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-07, 11:55 PM

Personally I want to five the First and Forsaken Lion a hug.

Arcanoi

2011-01-07, 11:59 PM

Personally I want to five the First and Forsaken Lion a hug.

All of the Deathlords need hugs and mercy killings.

golentan

2011-01-08, 12:06 AM

All of the Deathlords need hugs and mercy killings.

All the deathlords have received one half of that already. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2011-01-08, 12:11 AM

...so a hug will end their eternal unrest and let them move on? XD

Jokasti

2011-01-08, 12:39 AM

Now, the Ebon Dragon. F*** that guy.

If you insist~ :smallwink::smallredface::smallcool::smallamused:

golentan

2011-01-08, 12:43 AM

If you insist~ :smallwink::smallredface::smallcool::smallamused:

Normally I'd say "Bad Jokasti" and swat you with a rolled up newspaper to make you stop/punish you. But if you actually would, the end result would be way nastier than anything I could come up with. So go ahead.

So, I'm 90% sure at this point that if I wound up in the world of exalted I'd become a cultist/akuma of SWLiHN. I find this self-knowledge disturbing.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-08, 02:27 PM

I'd probably work in a Maiden-run brothel.

horngeek

2011-01-08, 02:35 PM

I'd probably work in a Maiden-run brothel.

No, you'd probably become a Chosen of Serenity and then seduce us all. :smalltongue:

I have... no idea what I'd be. No Moon, maybe? :smallconfused:

Tavar

2011-01-08, 02:37 PM

We'd all probably just be regular mortals, trying to scratch by a living in a pretty unpleasant world.

Reynard

2011-01-08, 02:53 PM

Nah, remember that old line about "Lore 9 in an Essence 1 body"?

someone would take interest in you if you wound up in Creation with your current knowledge.

Xefas

2011-01-08, 03:03 PM

We'd all probably just be regular mortals, trying to scratch by a living in a pretty unpleasant world.

Well, actually, we do have some useful knowledge at our disposal. For one, we know the Immaculate Philosophy is mostly false. We know that all Anathema are not soul-eating demons, and we know exactly how to tell each variety apart.

Depending on how many hours of your life you've sunk into reading the Exalted books; we may also know how the entire structure of the cosmos works and all the supernatural beings with in. We may know the exact current and future plans of all the Deathlords and Yozi. We know the problem with the Incarnae, we know that Abyssals and Infernals are actually Solar shards and that's it's possible to cleanse both of them (Abyssals can actually do it themselves without dying - you have to actually get the Infernal shard to Lytek somehow), we know the names of all the big movers and shakers in the multiverse. We know the Sun is actually a battlestation. The list goes oooooon.

We know a **** ton of esoteric supernatural stuff. Does this qualify us for Occult 5? Do our modern-day High School+ educations qualify us for Lore 2+ (depending)? Just those are a pretty good start. Hell, we know how to read, which is something a lot of mortals would not have.

Me? If I found myself in Creation, I'd head to Lookshy (no, they'd never take me in there) Greyfalls, maybe? I'd see if my Exalted knowledge qualifies me for enough Occult to learn basic thaumaturgy. Which would be only the beginning...

See, I think the difference would be that, IRL, we live in a relatively safe, modern world. We have a lot of conveniences and we can expect to live a long, happy life. In Creation, I know that at any moment I could die a horrifying terrible death through no fault of my own. And, that, that might not be that bad of a turn for me, considering how horrifying and terrible Creation is for mortals. So, why not take risks? Why not go for the gold? Why not try to move up in the world and be a hero? The worst is that I could die. IRL, the worst is that I could die, and miss out on another 60 years of internet. Which is a risk I'm not willing to take.

Kyeudo

2011-01-08, 03:17 PM

Heck, if you die in Creation you come back as a ghost and can now learn Charms and Celestial Martial Arts.

Tavar

2011-01-08, 03:25 PM

Jokasti

2011-01-08, 03:34 PM

I would be the Scarlet empress with some gender change thing going on. For obvious reasons.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-08, 03:36 PM

I would be a Dragon King, and just live out my life peacefully.

I could also teleport with division by zero.

horngeek

2011-01-08, 03:44 PM

http://halshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/phpw9jvl0pm.jpg

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-08, 03:49 PM

O SHI-

Dragon Kings are so cool.

Jokasti

2011-01-08, 03:50 PM

O SHI-

Dragon Kings are so cool.

Nope.avi
:smalltrollface:
They actually are, though. Unlike Abyssals.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-08, 03:53 PM

Nope.avi
:smalltrollface:
They actually are, though. Unlike Abyssals.

Abyssals are cool, too. Cooler than Dragon-blooded, at least.

Lord Raziere

2011-01-08, 04:17 PM

beh, your just saying that because the lame Abyssals are jealous that they just Solar copies and that the cool Dragon-Blooded aren't. :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-01-08, 04:47 PM

Depends on whether you mean your self as you, minus any knowledge of the Exalted world(as in one game over in the PBP area), or if you have the knowledge.

I was assuming the former, as in the Latter...well, given what we know, would you be a willing cultist of any of the Yozi? Not sympathetic, but actually trying to release them, or otherwise help them?

I was assuming the former as well. Though I suppose in the latter case I might consider signing on secure in the knowledge I had no power to actually effect their release, I don't think the odds are likely barring some mighty big perspective shifts.

I'd probably just go try to enlighten my essence and/or move to lookshy. Enroll in Valhawksen, serve as an engineer in the seventh legion.

Tavar

2011-01-08, 05:22 PM

In the latter case, well, if you're part of fate, then all bets are off. You likely have a high occult/lore, which might just draw an exalted shard to you. Also, you know many things that no other being inside Creation knows, thus would give a boost to some beings. Like...that god of things only one person knows? He now knows about the Great Curse.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-08, 05:24 PM

Reynard

2011-01-08, 05:26 PM

Like...that god of things only one person knows? He now knows about the Great Curse.

Nope. Lytek already knows, as does the Maiden of Secrets. Not to mention the Yozi and Neverborn (And their Deathlords).

Lytek: Is either trying to fix it himself, or is lazy. Depends on your opinion.
MoS: Well, she's not telling anyone. It's her nature.
Yozi: Hah. It's a crapshoot if they even tell their Infernals about it. Same goes for the Deathlords and their Abyssals.

Xefas

2011-01-08, 05:50 PM

I think I've found one of Isidoros' humaniform jouten.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/Isidoros.png

Pompadour? Check
So much chest hair that it distends his clothes? Check
Phallic motif? Check (Lookit that nose :smalleek:)

He also punches sharks and swims by grabbing the ocean and pushing it so hard that it moves behind him. Those are a bit harder to express in a screencap, though.

Jokasti

2011-01-08, 06:04 PM

Tavar

2011-01-08, 08:17 PM

Nope. Lytek already knows, as does the Maiden of Secrets. Not to mention the Yozi and Neverborn (And their Deathlords).

Lytek: Is either trying to fix it himself, or is lazy. Depends on your opinion.
MoS: Well, she's not telling anyone. It's her nature.
Yozi: Hah. It's a crapshoot if they even tell their Infernals about it. Same goes for the Deathlords and their Abyssals.

Yozi: aren't part of creation, thus aren't part of Nara-O's purview. Same for Neverborn. Not sure about deathlords, but I believe they're outside of fate as well..
MoS: either doesn't count towards his purview, or his purview doesn't do anything at all.
Lytek: He knows there's a flaw. We know what the flaw is, it's cause, and possible ways around it.

Kyeudo

2011-01-09, 01:46 AM

It. Nara-O is a it.

Well, he could be a he or a she, but that's a secret only one person knows. Can't really tell under all those bandages.

Kris Strife

2011-01-09, 01:56 AM

So, Nara-O only knows secrets that one person knows? What happens if that person dies? Does he forget it?

Kyeudo

2011-01-09, 02:01 AM

So, Nara-O only knows secrets that one person knows? What happens if that person dies? Does he forget it?

No, it just disapears from his files in Yu-Shan, just as though you'd told the secret to someone else.

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-09, 05:26 AM

So, Nara-O only knows secrets that one person knows? What happens if that person dies? Does he forget it?

Nara-O doesn't know secrets only one person knows. Secrets only one person knows are his purview, but he has to look them up in his files all the same.

Once he knows something he doesn't forget it.

(And 'he' is the gender neutral pronoun for people in English, so screw you and that 'it' rubbish.)

Cyborg Mage

2011-01-09, 06:09 AM

Kyeudo

2011-01-09, 11:14 AM

Speaking of Nara-o, through logic, Nara-o shouldn't know anything. Think about it. He automatically knows secrets known only to one person. Therefore, it is technically known by two people. Sure, being a god he can kind of screw logic, but still. 'Tis food for thought.

He doesn't count as part of his own purview, just like Xaos, I think his name is, doesn't count for his purview. Xaos is the God of Things No One Knows.

Lord Raziere

2011-01-09, 11:21 AM

Kyeudo

2011-01-09, 02:22 PM

The bad thing about them is neither of those gods can tell the secrets. Its completely against their nature and would make Exalted too easy.

So I'm thinking Nara-O or Xaos concocting some complicated scheme for someone to find out the Great Curse by themselves would make a great Exalted game, just imagine the convoluted scheming that he would have to pull off :smallbiggrin:

Actually Xaos tries to share the things he knows quite regularly. People just tend to go mad when he tells them.

Nara-O similarly doesn't seem to have any behavioral prohibitions against telling others things he knows.

Teln

2011-01-10, 12:02 PM

Hypothetical question: How would you go about porting a Thousand-Forged Dragon into 3.5? The Construct type is the obvious way to go (average BAB, but autosuccess on all Fort rolls makes up for that), and I was thinking about giving it a Disintegrate effect as a breath weapon, because I think a dragon really isn't complete without a breath weapon.

Kyeudo

2011-01-10, 01:19 PM

Thousand-Forged Dragons don't have a breath weapon. They suck in Essence until they go critical, then explode with the force of a nuclear blast.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-10, 01:23 PM

Thousand-Forged Dragons don't have a breath weapon. They suck in Essence until they go critical, then explode with the force of a nuclear blast.

Gasp of Hesiesh disagrees.

Kyeudo

2011-01-10, 01:45 PM

So I'm wrong there. Been a while since I last looked at their write up. My game isn't quite ready for that level of threat.

Fortuna

2011-01-11, 11:40 PM

Tables, you say? Fine, I'll try a table. (Yes, I'm behind the times. Live.)

{table=head]Player|ST?|Favorite Exalt|Second Favorite Exalt|Third Favorite Exalt|Favorite Game Type

Random_person|Yep.|Alchemicals|Infernals|Lunars|An y[/table]

Reynard

2011-01-13, 04:33 AM

I've been getting a hankering to run one of the published adventures as a solo adventure for a slightly higher-powered exalt (Ess 4-ish, rather than 2).

I don't know why.

So, I guess this is an interest check. Would anyone be interested?

Fortuna

2011-01-13, 06:25 AM

Yes please! I'd be very willing to play as anything but a Sidereal, and somewhat willing for that.

Reynard

2011-01-13, 06:41 AM

Alright then, I suppose I'll get to work thinking up the houserules. If you can get on AIM, we can get the pre-adventure fluff stuff out of the way faster, and fit your char into the story better.

Fortuna

2011-01-13, 07:34 AM

Sure, I'm there now.

Tavar

2011-01-13, 09:19 AM

That sounds interesting to me as well. Probably a Lunar of some sort, though a solar would be interesting as well.

DragonSinged

2011-01-14, 12:01 PM

Alright, so I've been finishing up the details on my character, and my group got together last night to run a sample combat so that we could all get a bit of an idea on how that flows.

Things went pretty ok, but I have a question about Glorious Solar Saber (and I'm thinking that reading that sentence might cause a few of you to groan.)

See, my problem was, I wanted my character to use melee, but my character also only has 1 Str, which is pretty limiting on the weapons you can use. I figured, hey, if I pick up GSS, I don't think I have to worry about the Str requirements of the weapon, but I'm not exactly sure about how to actually /use/ GSS.
Anyways, according to the Errata, 5m will get you a weapon with traits equal to a 3 dot artifact weapon. Problem is, in the core book at least, the only 3 dot artifact weapons I can find are your crazy grand gore-this's, and grand grim-that's, that are all sporting 14L-16L damage, and from what I can tell, and have read on here, that way madness lies.
So yeah. I guess what I'm going for here is suggestions. Are there any good 3 dot artifact weapons to use with GSS that aren't going to start an arms-race?

(Also, the spell "Flight of the Brilliant Raptor"? So fun to use. Fwoosh. :smallbiggrin: )

Temet Nosce

2011-01-14, 12:30 PM

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-14, 12:45 PM

There is indeed a reason not to invest in Essence 4 - it costs a lot of BP and doesn't give that much of an advantage.

Essence 3 is wiser.

Kyeudo

2011-01-14, 12:47 PM

golentan

2011-01-14, 01:01 PM

Hrm, I keep seeing this thread here and I'm about to play in an Exalted game for the second time (the first one was ages ago and fell apart rapidly however, so I'm not exactly extremely familiar with the system). As a result, I feel inclined to ask if there's anything I should know before mechanically creating my character that wouldn't be immediately obvious (or any tips on the most effective way to go about it/the best uses of the system)

To be a bit more specific, the character I'm developing is a blind Twilight caste who navigates through echolocation ala Ben Underwood if you're familiar with him. The character will also be rather obsessed with obscure forms of martial arts and the lore surrounding their creation/the way they portray reality.

Ah also, is there a reason not to invest in Essence 4 at start?

That sounds familiar to me from a different Ben... (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ben+underwood&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

It does depend on a wide variety of things. There are reasons not to go essence 4, but there are reasons to hang your build on it as well. It is not the most efficient use of bonus points, as has been said, but who cares? Exalted ain't never really been about "optimization," because the instant you start optimizing everything everywhere dies and combat becomes about as exciting as flipping a coin.

In general, essence 3 satisfies many of your prereqs and lets you do the awesomes while leaving you enough BP to not be a one track wonder IME. But your call.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-14, 01:03 PM

The best thing to invest in with bonus points is Charms and Ability Dots. Attributes also work, but are a little less cost efficient. Essence 3 is easy enough to pick up after about 4 sessions - it has no training time.

Charms are really expensive with bonus points, actually, coming to about 2.33 XP per bonus point. The best thing to invest in with bonus points is favored abilities above 3 and specialties (at least 5 XP per BP), Attributes to 5 (4 XP per BP), Virtues above 2 (6 XP per BP) and Willpower (if you take it from 5 to 10, 14 XP per BP). Almost everythig else is ridiculously expensive compared to these and are likely better off being bought with XP.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-14, 01:23 PM

It's really not so much about optimization. Buying Essence 4 at the start is just kind of pointless. If you're spending 14 of your 15 or 18 BP to raise yourself to Essence 4, well, what are you going to do with Essence 4?

You have ten charms at character generation, and if you want to grab Essence 4 charms, you're going to be blowing most of those ten on a single charm tree.

You could want to grab Celestial circle sorcery, I guess, but how are you getting spells without those delicious BP? You can trade in charms (correct me if I'm wrong), but trading in your charms for sorcery, the great Willpower eater, is a good way to get yourself killed pretty quickly, especially as you're going to have a smaller Willpower pool then you might want.

And because you're blowing all of your BP on Essence, you're stuck at starting levels for almost everything else.

Really, why would you want Essence 4 when you can get everything you want or need as a starting character at Essence 3?

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-14, 01:27 PM

Really, why would you want Essence 4 when you can get everything you want or need as a starting character at Essence 3?

You even get things you may not want or need, such as a Charm to turn "killed" Primordials and Yozis into Neverborn.

Temet Nosce

2011-01-15, 01:18 AM

To be clearer, I will be either buying Essence up to 4 at start or shortly after the game begins barring some extremely good reason not to (some of the martial arts I'm interested in require high essence).

Also, thanks for the brief breakdown of BP effectiveness - that's the kind of information I'm looking for in general. Charms I should have because they're extremely effective for their cost, bits of information I might not notice that could be relevant later, etc. Things to ensure smooth design and play I suppose.

golentan

2011-01-15, 02:39 AM

Which Martial Arts?

Xefas

2011-01-15, 03:58 AM

So, Malfeas, Cecelyne, She Who Lives In Her Name, Adorjan, and the Ebon Dragon all walk into a bar. Malfeas claps his belt buckle and casts Unity of the Closed Fist. What happens, exactly? :smallconfused:

Mechanically speaking, it seems like it would work, but I feel that there might be some interesting interactions, what with the newly amalgamated creature having all the charms of the component beings, and a Yozi's physical, mental, and spiritual nature being defined by the charms it possesses. Would that make it a new creature all together? For a scene, that is.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-15, 12:43 PM

BOOM.

That was the STs head exploding. Go home and come back for next week while the ST cries and tries to work it out.

golentan

2011-01-15, 01:02 PM

The proper question: Could it then learn heretical charms from an appropriate tutor?

Xefas

2011-01-15, 03:16 PM

The proper question: Could it then learn heretical charms from an appropriate tutor?

I don't think so, even if only because it exists for a single scene, and there's no guarantee that the knowledge trained into it from one scene would carry over into the next casting, after the new being's mind has been torn into five completely different pieces, and then reconfigured back.

The more definitive answer is that part of the definition of the "Heretical" keyword is: "...The Yozi cannot learn them. Heretical charms cannot be learned by akuma or through the Eclipse anima power or its equivalents. Only Green Sun Princes can utilize these charms..."

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-16, 07:28 AM

A weird question: what methods are there for a mortal to change his sex, fully and functionally? Preferably permanently as well?

Jokasti

2011-01-16, 09:06 AM

A weird question: what methods are there for a mortal to change his sex, fully and functionally? Preferably permanently as well?

Charms, spells, or artifacts.
Specifically? The only thing that comes to mind immediately and without checking books is that spell that changes your body, with the picture of the girl laying down and the four armed lady thing statue.
You know the one.

tonberrian

2011-01-16, 10:08 AM

A weird question: what methods are there for a mortal to change his sex, fully and functionally? Preferably permanently as well?

Stone of Gender Change, Oadenol's 97.

Failing that, you could probably write up a pox that changes genders and have that applied somehow.

Terraoblivion

2011-01-16, 10:54 AM

And Craft (Genesis) can canonically do it too, which shouldn't be too surprising given everything else it can do. There is also a powerful being of some kind that only wants female servants somewhere in the North, which isn't above just adapting men to be suitable. It is in the outcaste chapter of MoEP: Dragonblooded.

I imagine that a specialized Emerald Circle spell could do it as well. Really, it doesn't seem like something that is too hard if you get close to powerful enough beings.

Cyborg Mage

2011-01-16, 11:13 AM

I may just be a Chosen of Endings in real life. I'm really not, but still. I get deja vu a lot. I used to think about death a lot more than I wanted to. (Still do, but I have some control over it.) Then again, I may just be a Chosen of Battles, given my fondness for the colour red and tendency to get angry. Thoughts?

(Also, where can I find a blank Alchemical char sheet for this forum?)

tonberrian

2011-01-16, 11:21 AM

(Also, where can I find a blank Alchemical char sheet for this forum?)

You mean like this?

Alchemical Character Sheet:

Name:
Exalt Type and Caste:
Display

Motivation

Backstory

Attributes

Physical
Strength ●
Dexterity ●
Stamina ●

Social
Charisma ●
Manipulation ●
Appearance ●

Mental
Perception ●
Intelligence ●
Wits ●

Abilities

Athletics
Awareness
Dodge
Integrity
Archery
Martial Arts
Melee
Resistance
Thrown
War

Craft
Ride
Larceny
Linguistics
Performance
Presence
Sail
Socialize
Stealth
Survival

Bureaucracy
Investigation
Lore
Medicine
Occult

Backgrounds

Merits

Flaws

Artifacts and Equipment

Weapon Stats:

Charms

Strength

Dexterity

Stamina

Charisma

Manipulation

Appearance

Perception

Intelligence

Wits

Martial Arts

Arrays

Join Combat: 8

Defenses
Dodge DV
Parry DV

Soak:

Health
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ][ ]
-2 [ ][ ]
-4 [ ]
X [ ]

Mental Defenses
Dodge MDV
Parry MDV

Virtues
Compassion ●
Conviction ●
Temperance ●
Valor ●

Intimacies

Willpower

Essence
Permanent: ●●
Personal: x/x (0 Committed)
Peripheral: x/x (0 Committed)

Bonus Points: 0/18 spent

Experience Points: 0/0 spent

Quote and copy from inside the quote to keep the formatting.

Cyborg Mage

2011-01-16, 11:45 AM

Many thanks. You will be spared when Creation's population is scheduled for processing.

golentan

2011-01-16, 03:42 PM

So, is it just me or are Alchemicals the best generals in the setting? With very little work, I was able to build a character who could take a ragtag bunch of misfits, give them might 4 (equivalent to an army of exalts), perfect morale, drill above 5, never takes lethal casualties while the alchemical lives, and counts as whatever formation is most advantageous in all things simultaneously.

Is there something better than this out there? Apart from things which ignore mass combat. And yes, I realize mass combat is a trap, but still...

Kyeudo

2011-01-16, 08:27 PM

Tavar

2011-01-16, 08:37 PM

What would the following change do for the game: have hardness apply after soak?

Kyeudo

2011-01-16, 08:42 PM

As written? Almost certain immortality from anyone not dealing a gazillion raw damage.

a_humble_lich

2011-01-16, 09:06 PM

Why do you think I revised the entire mass combat system?

What did you do with the mass combat system? I'm now curious.

Tavar

2011-01-16, 09:40 PM

As written? Almost certain immortality from anyone not dealing a gazillion raw damage.

True. Perhaps...apply it after soak from armor is applied? Might still be too much, though. Trying to make armor more useful, and maybe fix lethality somewhat.

Oh, also, how how dogmatic is Lookshy in terms of Immaculate faith regarding Anathema?

Guancyto

2011-01-16, 10:05 PM

Oh, also, how how dogmatic is Lookshy in terms of Immaculate faith regarding Anathema?

Not at all. Most people of Lookshy (including most of their government) think the Immaculate doctrines are a load of hooey. Anathema are neither hunted nor shunned on principle, but they are acknowledged as powerful, willful and unpredictable individuals. If peaceful, they're usually treated very politely there.

horngeek

2011-01-16, 10:11 PM

It seems to be treated variably, actually. Two of the Exalted in Scroll of Exalts are a Mother/Daughter Dragon-Blood/Solar pair, and the fact the mother is a high-ranking Lookshyan officer and the daughter is a Zenith Caste is a big deal, and could ruin the mother's career.

golentan

2011-01-16, 10:21 PM

I thought they were anti-anathema, nominally immaculate, and pretty free about the whole matter (willing to cut deals with lunars/solars for political gain, freedom of religion, etc. etc.) when it wasn't preferable to claim dogma as justification for an advantage.

Guancyto

2011-01-16, 11:03 PM

Hm, on having looked it up, you're right. Compass of Terrestrial Directions says the 'Official' Immaculate line is looked upon as a tool of the Realm, and the version that the populace of Lookshy practices is much less dogmatic. They don't like Anathema per se, but shanking them isn't part of their religion and they're pretty practical about the whole affair.

Lord Raziere

2011-01-16, 11:57 PM

oh good, that'll work for a Solar character of mine, a Twilight who wants bring back the magitech of the First Age to everyone.

Kyeudo

2011-01-17, 12:05 AM

What did you do with the mass combat system? I'm now curious.

Take a look. (http://www.mediafire.com/?hq05dds23ng9nwf) Mostly got rid of the "army as pants" mechanic for now, but I plan to revise all of the Mass Combat Charms eventually.

True. Perhaps...apply it after soak from armor is applied? Might still be too much, though. Trying to make armor more useful, and maybe fix lethality somewhat.

There are three things that would do alot for armor. The first is to get rid of the Piercing tag from weapons. Replace it with Overwhelming 2 if the weapon doesn't already have it. The second is to take minimum damage to 1 instead of Essence. The third is to reduce the cost of the core artifact armors down to a reasonable level.

Fortuna

2011-01-17, 06:19 AM

I want everyone reading this to clear their mind and prepare to deliver a one word response to the description in this spoiler box. I predict that I know what your response will be.

Ligier going wassailing.Your response was 'what'

I am utterly convinced that this went on every Calibration of the First Age. And also that I predicted your response correctly.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-17, 06:21 AM

Mine was who. :smallcool:
xD

Fortuna

2011-01-17, 06:24 AM

Ah well, can't be right all the time.

Still an awesome image, though.

vegetalss4

2011-01-17, 12:08 PM

whats wassailing?

Arcanoi

2011-01-17, 12:48 PM

Is there something better than this out there? Apart from things which ignore mass combat. And yes, I realize mass combat is a trap, but still...

Abyssals are the best generals. They've got the best war tree and it's far superior to the Alchemical charisma tree. Not to mention, access to Necromancy (Build yourself a unit of Nephwracks with Hekatonkhire Heroes) and their Melee charms (Deal ridiculous damage to Mass combat units) and the best training charm in the setting...

IcarusWings

2011-01-17, 02:42 PM

Reynard

2011-01-17, 02:49 PM

A question for the playground which is semi-important for a character of mine, who is a ghost. The concept is that he's a blind prophet (inspired by Greek myth) who exchanged his eyes for the gift of prophecy (offer probably made by Maiden of Secrets or Endings, not sure yet). Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any methods of prophecy/divination in Exalted. Does anyone know of any that could help me out? Preferrably easy to access as a ghost. I have access to all the books, just haven't read them all yet.

Are you the ST in this situation?

Regardless, there's the Thaumaturgic Art of Astrology (Which is a bitch to get, but available to all), and the Alternative Divination Merit lets you change the base ritual, Compile Chart, to something more thematic, including Crystallomancy (crystals), Haruspicy (entrails), Oneiromancy (dreams), Palmistry (palm reading), and Sortilege (bone tossing).

Tavar

2011-01-17, 02:51 PM

IcarusWings

2011-01-17, 02:53 PM

Are you the ST in this situation?

Regardless, there's the Thaumaturgic Art of Astrology (Which is a bitch to get, but available to all), and the Alternative Divination Merit lets you change the base ritual, Compile Chart, to something more thematic, including Crystallomancy (crystals), Haruspicy (entrails), Oneiromancy (dreams), Palmistry (palm reading), and Sortilege (bone tossing).

No it's a player character concept, not sure how well it'll work in game, but I like the concept. And thanks for the advice in getting divination, it should help (I'll probably refluff some-of it to just plain-old visions though if the ST'll let me).

EDIT: Didn't see the new page

That tells fate, as given by the Loom of Fate. The Maidens have another ability called....Samarasa? It's something with S's and A's in it. The difference is that it can't be defied. Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

I doubt it's possible to get as a ghost though. And I think the ability is Samsara (I haven't heard of it in Exalted, but it's a real word).

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-17, 03:35 PM

That tells fate, as given by the Loom of Fate. The Maidens have another ability called....Samarasa? It's something with S's and A's in it. The difference is that it can't be defied. Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

However, it can't predict the actions of PCs. Quite explicitly. I always found this awesome.

I mean, in-canon. There are people it doesn't work on, and they're the PCs.

Xefas

2011-01-17, 03:46 PM

Not sure if it's possible for someone to get it as an ability, though there is one primordial who supposedly would have it.

The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.

His power is that he knows, absolutely, everything that will ever happen, perfectly and unerringly. So, if he were to exist, fate would be set in stone for everyone, including Essence users. They would only be able to do that which Sacheverell has seen. And that would be pretty damn maddening. The ultimate railroading for the entire cosmos (Since the demons of Malfeas seem to be scared of it, I imagine his ability isn't based on the Loom, so it would affect everything?).

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-17, 05:03 PM

The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.

He exists, he is just sleeping. While he is sleeping, he sees everything in the present. If he wakes up, he will see everything in the future. It is possible that he will see his death at some point, of course, which would mean some Exalts would have to kill him.

Xefas

2011-01-17, 05:11 PM

He exists, he is just sleeping.

This sounds a lot like the "It's okay Timmy. Nothing's wrong with Buster. He's just...sleeping. Yeah, that's it. And tomorrow we can get you a new Buster. One who isn't sleeping quite so much."

I think that when he's described as "sleeping", it's kind of metaphorical. Like, he's a potentiality (sleeping), and then he might become an actuality (awake).

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-17, 05:15 PM

No, he literally fell asleep in the past and hasn't woken back up yet.

He was different before he fell asleep, of course. He was a Primordial and had different powers, so it wasn't quite so dangerous...

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-17, 05:19 PM

All things other than Nirguna have a definite existence in Exalted. Except for non-awesome things.

Tavar

2011-01-17, 05:26 PM

Or things that are outside of Nirguna's effect, if I read the material right. Man, I'm beginning to see why Graceful Wicked Masques has such a bad reputation.

golentan

2011-01-17, 10:19 PM

Abyssals are the best generals. They've got the best war tree and it's far superior to the Alchemical charisma tree. Not to mention, access to Necromancy (Build yourself a unit of Nephwracks with Hekatonkhire Heroes) and their Melee charms (Deal ridiculous damage to Mass combat units) and the best training charm in the setting...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but... How? Having read through, they get the same unit boost abilities (boost morale, drill, ignore relays, etc.) except: 1) the drill can't exceed 5, 2) they can't boost might to the same extent (army of ghosts: might 2, army of autocthonians with the character I built: 3-4. Equivalent to an army composed entirely of "experienced abyssals)", 3) they have normal formation rules rather than "whatever's most convenient I count as at all times," 4) they summon magnitude (essence) rather than adding a flat +3 to magnitude.

I'm not just counting the war charms, I'm counting a few other things from the book. And many of these powers work best on defense, but still.

Arcanoi

2011-01-17, 11:44 PM

Not to put too fine a point on it, but... How? Having read through, they get the same unit boost abilities (boost morale, drill, ignore relays, etc.) except: 1) the drill can't exceed 5, 2) they can't boost might to the same extent (army of ghosts: might 2, army of autocthonians with the character I built: 3-4. Equivalent to an army composed entirely of "experienced abyssals)", 3) they have normal formation rules rather than "whatever's most convenient I count as at all times," 4) they summon magnitude (essence) rather than adding a flat +3 to magnitude.

I'm not just counting the war charms, I'm counting a few other things from the book. And many of these powers work best on defense, but still.

His unit is Hardened Killers. They've got a score of 4 in every relevant attribute and ability. That might is a +2 on some values, which is negated by his better combat values. Even then, it scarcely matters when he's just straight up better than you, with better combat charms.

What did you build the character with? Base gen?

Dragnar

2011-01-17, 11:57 PM

The primordial you're probably thinking of is Sacheverell. He currently doesn't exist, but he keeps trying to exist, and the demons of Malfeas fight an endless battle to explode any of his bits that start popping up.

His power is that he knows, absolutely, everything that will ever happen, perfectly and unerringly. So, if he were to exist, fate would be set in stone for everyone, including Essence users. They would only be able to do that which Sacheverell has seen. And that would be pretty damn maddening. The ultimate railroading for the entire cosmos (Since the demons of Malfeas seem to be scared of it, I imagine his ability isn't based on the Loom, so it would affect everything?).
I never really got why that sort of predestination is such a bad thing... It doesn't actually CHANGE how things will turn out, it just means he knows beforehand.
"What's that? You can see the future? Well then, you already know how much this is gonna hurt."

Xefas

2011-01-18, 12:08 AM

He was a Primordial and had different powers, so it wasn't quite so dangerous...

Doesn't that mean he died? So wouldn't he be...dead and slowly "reforming" (because we're not allowed to use Rez lingo in Exalted)?

It doesn't actually CHANGE how things will turn out, it just means he knows beforehand.

Actually, it does. Fate/Causality/Predestination/Etc only exists within Creation via the Loom and Samsara. And anyone who can use Essence can actually alter their fate depending upon just how powerful their Essence control is. An Essence 1 mortal with Awakened Essence might be able to choose chicken for lunch one day instead of pork, which is what the Loom of Fate said he would do. An Essence 5 Solar can just laugh at his own predetermined death and punch it in the face.

But, the Wyld, the Underworld, Malfeas, and Elsewhere - they aren't bound by the Loom or the Shinma. That's why the Primordials made the Shinma in the first place - to separate the way Creation worked from the way everywhere else worked. That means that, given enough effort, even if the Yozi "should" lose, even if all logic determines that they "should" fail, even if every force in the cosmos is set against them, there is still a tiny, tiny chance that they can screw causality and win anyway.

If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-18, 12:11 AM

Doesn't that mean he died?Not really.

Fetich death doesn't cause you to cease existing - it just redefines you. When Malfeas was made to suffer fetich death, he was still the Primordial King, but instead of being an intangible concept of rulership, he was made to have a body.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 12:21 AM

I never really got why that sort of predestination is such a bad thing... It doesn't actually CHANGE how things will turn out, it just means he knows beforehand.
"What's that? You can see the future? Well then, you already know how much this is gonna hurt."

Because it completely and totally screws with the nature of the setting. It's an ability no one but the Maidens and Sacheverell have (in canon, at least). Sacheverell is asleep because he can see everything, and that basically forces him into inaction. The Maidens have limited access related to their purview, and that alone makes them slaves to samsara. They are bound to do whatever they see in samsara, because it's going to happen, and nothing can change that.

That breaks one of the central conceits of Exalted, that you can change everything if you work hard enough. Samsara, though, is inviolate. If samsara says the Unconquered Sun is going to die in the next week, and the PCs save him from the assassination squads on the sixth day of that week, he botches his eating roll the next day and drowns face down in a bowl of soup. There's nothing you can do about it. Though I guess you can technically break samsara. You just have to go redefine how reality works on the most fundamental level there is. Good luck with that.

There's also the whole part where if he wakes up, the world ends. That's kind of bad.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 12:21 AM

Fetich death doesn't cause you to cease existing - it just redefines you.

I understand that; I abandoned the "not existing" explanation. Being "redefined", however, is a lot like death. It's a bit like the Star Trek Teleporter problem - you get broken down and then a guy who looks like you shows up elsewhere, made out of the same atoms. Does that other guy have the same string of consciousness as you? Probably not.

And, I would assume most definitely not for Primordials. The First Age Solars bound the Yozi to not be capable of inflicting fetich-suicide on themselves. However, they still haven't commanded their completely free-to-kill-Fetichs Green Sun Princes to do the job, so it must be somehow worse than staying trapping in shame and torment.

Also, I realize that "His sleeping is literal" and "His sleeping is a metaphor for something that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to sleep" is quite the pedantic nitpick, but what else are we supposed to talk about? No one wanted to discuss my Reclamation Voltron idea. :smalltongue:

Arcanoi

2011-01-18, 12:24 AM

When Sacheverell wakes up, the ST plays your characters for you.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 12:40 AM

But, the Wyld, the Underworld, Malfeas, and Elsewhere - they aren't bound by the Loom or the Shinma. That's why the Primordials made the Shinma in the first place - to separate the way Creation worked from the way everywhere else worked. That means that, given enough effort, even if the Yozi "should" lose, even if all logic determines that they "should" fail, even if every force in the cosmos is set against them, there is still a tiny, tiny chance that they can screw causality and win anyway.

There's a lot wrong with this. The Primordials didn't make the shinma. The shinma came before the Primordials. They are literally the rocks (or anti-rocks, really, shinma are kind of weird) on which the universe that the Primordials came to exist in are built. They exist everywhere. This is Exalted, so you can actually walk up to one and punch it in the face, but this is probably a Bad Idea.

The Loom (which is probably what you're thinking of) itself does not apply to the Yozis, but samsara predestination is completely different from Loom predestination. Samsara encompasses everything, and thus is infallible.

If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.

Everything is already predestined in samsara. It's just that no one can see it, besides the Maidens and Sacheverell.

I understand that; I abandoned the "not existing" explanation. Being "redefined", however, is a lot like death. It's a bit like the Star Trek Teleporter problem - you get broken down and then a guy who looks like you shows up elsewhere, made out of the same atoms. Does that other guy have the same string of consciousness as you? Probably not.

Actually, yes, yes they do. The Yozis are pretty much Primordials who had a big bucketful of psychological trauma dumped on them (besides the Ebon Dragon, but he cheats), and they are very much recognizable in personality as what they once were. Just very, very twisted.

And, I would assume most definitely not for Primordials. The First Age Solars bound the Yozi to not be capable of inflicting fetich-suicide on themselves. However, they still haven't commanded their completely free-to-kill-Fetichs Green Sun Princes to do the job, so it must be somehow worse than staying trapping in shame and torment.

Because fetich death is an absolutely terrible idea. You have no idea what you're going to be redefined as. And this is ignoring the part where you have your identity killed and you have to restructure your very being. That probably stings a bit.

Besides, fetich death might not even free the Yozis, depending on how the surrender oaths work.

Fortuna

2011-01-18, 12:46 AM

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 12:50 AM

Glories of the Most High: Maidens explicitly contradicts the infallibility of samsara, noting as specific examples Ignis and PCs.

Actually, it says the exact opposite. Look at the second part of the third paragraph. It's assumed that if you contradict samsara in some way, well what do you know, it turns out that samsara predicted you would contradict the previous prediction of samsara that now turns out to be false.

It also recommends keeping samsara on the DL so you don't have to deal with logic loops like that.

EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.

This is less of something that happens in-game, and more of just a way for the ST to deal with having an infallible prophecy that the PCs are inevitably going to muck up somehow.

golentan

2011-01-18, 01:00 AM

His unit is Hardened Killers. They've got a score of 4 in every relevant attribute and ability. That might is a +2 on some values, which is negated by his better combat values. Even then, it scarcely matters when he's just straight up better than you, with better combat charms.

What did you build the character with? Base gen?

But him being straight up better is relying on solar level cheese and the army as pants mechanic rather than being a better general. Basically "I'm going to kick the snot out of you, the army is secondary to that."

That might is +4 bonus successes on attacks and contested essence effects, uncapped by war. The unit formation bonuses double close combat rating (which with regular soldiers brings it to normal maximum for auto successes, something the abyssal doesn't surpass at equivalent essence with hardened killers), double cover/shield bonuses, get +3 dv vs. ranged, and double/triple their effective magnitude vs foes in close or skirmish formation (further auto successes). All at once.

And it's a more experienced exalt (essence 4 before the really cool stuff kicks in), but normal rules for someone a decade or so into their career.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 01:05 AM

There's a lot wrong with this. The Primordials didn't make the shinma. The shinma came before the Primordials. They are literally the rocks (or anti-rocks, really, shinma are kind of weird) on which the universe that the Primordials came to exist in are built. They exist everywhere. This is Exalted, so you can actually walk up to one and punch it in the face, but this is probably a Bad Idea.

The Loom (which is probably what you're thinking of) itself does not apply to the Yozis, but samsara predestination is completely different from Loom predestination. Samsara encompasses everything, and thus is infallible.

You're right, I don't know a lot about the shinma, and I do recall something about the ancient beings of the Wyld being "birthed" by the shinma, now that you mention it. I do have to wonder, however, how Nirakara, whose purpose is to divide Creation from the Wyld, was somehow in existence before the Primordials who created Creation in the first place.

Having deferred to your knowledge, of course, now the question is why is Sacheverell a deal at all? If Samsara really is as ubiquitous as you say, then it downgrades him from this awesome, spooky plot hook to "Meh, why does anyone care? It's not like it does anything."

Actually, yes, yes they do. The Yozis are pretty much Primordials who had a big bucketful of psychological trauma dumped on them (besides the Ebon Dragon, but he cheats), and they are very much recognizable in personality as what they once were. Just very, very twisted.

I think you're simplifying fetich death here quite a bit, though. This isn't just psychological trauma. It's a complete fundamental shift in your very nature. I doubt it has ever been explicitly defined whether a Yozi's exact consciousness carries over or not (especially because it's something that no one in the setting could ever really know), but I'd rather err on the side of horrifying whenever the fate of the Yozi are involved.

And as far as the parallel discussion on just how perfect Samsara is in regards to the player characters, I'll just leave this here (http://nobilis.me/quotes:holden-on-samsara), with the excerpt: "The Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong. Which is not the same as saying that samsara can't be wrong."

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 01:27 AM

You're right, I don't know a lot about the shinma, and I do recall something about the ancient beings of the Wyld being "birthed" by the shinma, now that you mention it. I do have to wonder, however, how Nirakara, whose purpose is to divide Creation from the Wyld, was somehow in existence before the Primordials who created Creation in the first place.

Nirakara defines shape and form. It's role in dividing Creation and the Wyld came later.

Having deferred to your knowledge, of course, now the question is why is Sacheverell a deal at all? If Samsara really is as ubiquitous as you say, then it downgrades him from this awesome, spooky plot hook to "Meh, why does anyone care? It's not like it does anything."

Well, again, samsara is like the movie script to Exalted. Complete knowledge of everything that will be is a very, very, very big deal, that literally nothing else in the setting possesses. Samsara largely works in the background, as the Maidens keep quiet about it. But if everyone knows about it, predestination becomes a lot more obvious.

Not to mention that Sacheverell has some other stuff going on too. If I remember right, when he's awake, he's basically a reality warper. His dreams become real. Though I could be wrong about that.

I think you're simplifying fetich death here quite a bit, though. This isn't just psychological trauma. It's a complete fundamental shift in your very nature. I doubt it has ever been explicitly defined whether a Yozi's exact consciousness carries over or not (especially because it's something that no one in the setting could ever really know), but I'd rather err on the side of horrifying whenever the fate of the Yozi are involved.

Well, at the very least, an almost exact copy of their consciousness seems carries over. Malfeas is pretty much defined in the non-fetich sense by his rage over his loss of what he once was. She Who Lives In Her Name explicitly is similar to what she used to be, she just lost all ability to tolerate anything that didn't fit in her hierarchy. The Ebon Dragon is again a cheating *******, and he only changed physically.

I also personally find it far more horrifying to be twisted like the Yozis were. If your mind was completely wiped blank tomorrow, you had new memories installed, and you were set up in a new life that conforms to those memories, would you able to tell? That's very unsettling and sad, but it's not really horrifying like the Yozis are. The Yozis are more akin to being tortured into insanity, having everything you love and cherish killed, and then being locked into a prison cell for the rest of your immortal life. Oh yeah, and they also keep swapping out your internal organs whenever they need a new lung or something.

And as far as the parallel discussion on just how perfect Samsara is in regards to the player characters, I'll just leave this here (http://nobilis.me/quotes:holden-on-samsara), with the excerpt: "The Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong. Which is not the same as saying that samsara can't be wrong."

Huh. I like that, and if I ran a game where samsara was relevant that's probably how I would play it, but it seems a bit contradictory with how samsara is portrayed in the other places its come up. I'm certainly willing to take Holden's word on it, though.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 01:38 AM

Nirakara defines shape and form. It's role in dividing Creation and the Wyld came later.

Well, again, samsara is like the movie script to Exalted. Complete knowledge of everything that will be is a very, very, very big deal, that literally nothing else in the setting possesses. Samsara largely works in the background, as the Maidens keep quiet about it. But if everyone knows about it, predestination becomes a lot more obvious.

Not to mention that Sacheverell has some other stuff going on too. If I remember right, when he's awake, he's basically a reality warper. His dreams become real. Though I could be wrong about that.

Cool, cool. Learning new things.

Well, at the very least, an almost exact copy of their consciousness seems carries over. Malfeas is pretty much defined in the non-fetich sense by his rage over his loss of what he once was. She Who Lives In Her Name explicitly is similar to what she used to be, she just lost all ability to tolerate anything that didn't fit in her hierarchy. The Ebon Dragon is again a cheating ****, and he only changed physically.

This only proves that memories carry over; not necessarily consciousness. If, for instance, someone kicked me in the nuts and then perfectly cloned my present self, killing the real me in the process, the clone-me is still going to be upset about the nut-kicking because he perceives and remembers the event occurring as if he were me. He will then go on to live my entire life the exact same way I would have. But he's not me; I'm still dead. Which...sucks for me, I guess. This is what I imagine fetich death to be like, only the clone comes out kind of deformed.

golentan

2011-01-18, 01:51 AM

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 02:10 AM

Personally, I prefer to think of Fetich Death as brain damage: You become literally incapable of thinking in certain ways without lengthy, painful retraining of lost functionality.

That way I leave a path open for my favorite yozis to theoretically get better with counseling AND get the fundamental shifts in the being that lead to the Empyreal Chaos becoming the Demon City and the like.

The problem is, Yozis are incapable of acting outside of their First Excellency. It's impossible to change the Yozis back into what they once were. The only way to change them at all in any permanent sense is to muck around with their Charm trees or fetich death them again.

Really, the greatest way to make the Yozis get any better is to be a Green Sun Prince and invent Charms. Yozis automatically learn any Charm a GSP adds to their tree, so you can change the nature of the Yozis over time, as long as it sticks within their predefined roles and themes. The example I heard that I liked was with Malfeas. Malfeas is a holy tyrant, but it would not be out of theme for a Green Sun Prince to invent a Charm that works on the concept that a king's subjects are an important part of him, and thus should be treated with proper respect and care for the King's well-being. Add some new Charms to this tree, and bam, you have a Malfeas that is at least a bit kinder then what you started out with. You could probably also do something with Malfeas' mad DDR skills.

golentan

2011-01-18, 03:00 AM

How is that different from what I said? I said they were incapable of thinking in certain ways (I.E. can't act outside their Excellency's Parameters), and can get better with counseling. Never said what kind of counseling. Therapy (at least successful therapy) is that which makes you better: no more, no less.

GSPs are/can be a natural component of that, in my mind.

ShadowFighter15

2011-01-18, 03:13 AM

If Sachaverell lives, and predestines everyone, then the Yozi are bound by that 99.99% chance of just being losers forever. And so is everyone else. Everyone is railroaded forever, and suddenly the Exalted world is just as lame as our own.

I now have an idea for a modern-day Exalted game, or at least an explanation for why no-one knows about gods and essence and such.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 03:55 AM

EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.
I want to play this game?
Lessee... Shilo, young Solar. Nathan, possibly a turned Abyssal. Rotti, probably the same. Luigi and Pavi and Amber, likely Infernals. Graverobber Sidereal. Blind Mag... Solar? DB?

Lord Raziere

2011-01-18, 09:59 AM

EDIT: Basically, samsara is the script for a movie or a play. If the PCs launch into a song from Repo! during the middle of a performance of King Lear, the script retroactively is rewritten so that it always said that would happen.

This is less of something that happens in-game, and more of just a way for the ST to deal with having an infallible prophecy that the PCs are inevitably going to muck up somehow.

ah, its just the orwellian editor of reality fooling himself then "We have always been prophecized to go to war with Eastasia." and all that.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-18, 10:27 AM

I want to play this game?
Lessee... Shilo, young Solar. Nathan, possibly a turned Abyssal. Rotti, probably the same. Luigi and Pavi and Amber, likely Infernals. Graverobber Sidereal. Blind Mag... Solar? DB?

Nathan is a nephwrack. Rotti is a Deathlord. Luigi, Pavi and Amber all ghost-blooded. Graverobber is a Day Caste, while Blind Mag is a Midnight Caste. Shilo is a mortal.

Repo! The Genetic Opera maps closely to the Underworld themes.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 11:02 AM

Naaah, Nathan is a Night caste, possibly Dusk caste. Corrupted into servicing the deathlord.
...but otherwise that fits reeeeaaally well.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 02:55 PM

Should we be thinking of a witty name for General Exalted Discussion II? Only a few pages off.

Cyborg Mage

2011-01-18, 03:11 PM

(I'm probably gonna get kicked for the meme, but...)

"IT'S OVER NINE ESSENCE!"?

EDIT: 'Nother one.

"Now 60% Whispers-free!"?

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 03:26 PM

Reynard

2011-01-18, 03:31 PM

Anyone can take a 3-dot hearth stone to imitate the appearance AND effects of the Fire Aspect Anima.

Other than that, the Solar Larceny Charm Perfect Mirror allows you to create such a good copy of someone/thing that something like the anima would be trivial. You don't get their effects, which might tip someone off, but you can copy the exact appearance of the anima, provided you've seen it at all stages (in the case of copying a real person).

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 03:32 PM

Alchemicals have a charm. I'm afraid I forget the name, but it's number two in a tree.

golentan

2011-01-18, 03:35 PM

Infernals have an Ebon Dragon charm that makes them appear physically, supernaturally, and even astrologically to be whoever they feel like (including completely made up folks).

I vote for General Exalted Discussion II: No longer mortal

Reynard

2011-01-18, 03:38 PM

General Exalted Discussion 2: 50 more until 3rd edition.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 03:38 PM

I actually wouldn't mind "It's over nine Essence?!". I just find all-caps in a thread title to be bad form.

How about: "General Exalted Discussion II: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy"
(Obviously I have to be the one to lobby for an Infernal reference)

How easy is it for one type of Exalt to disguise himself as another type of Exalt? I know Lunars have Ten Thousand Heroes Face, and Sidereals have Sorcerer resplendent destinies and their Arcane Fate disguise bonuses, plus (Type) Exalt Ways from Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style to briefly imitate their anima effects. What about DBs, Alchemicals, and (fallen or non-fallen) Solars?

Face of the Titans allows an Infernal to reconfigure their caste mark and anima banner into anything they want. It explicitly says that they cannot exactly copy the anima banner of another kind of Exalt. So, you could turn your Slayer Caste mark into, say, a Zenith Caste mark, and turn your green anima gold, but there would be some subtle flaw. Maybe it wouldn't shine as brightly, or maybe it would be tinged a little of a different color at the edges, or something. However, I can't imagine it making that big of a difference to most people. You can just tell the other Solars you took "Slightly Less Shiny" as a 1pt flaw.

This does, however, come with the sizable proviso that you do have to be dedicated into becoming some sort of Sun-Primordial.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-18, 03:41 PM

We all live in a Manta-class Submarine?

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 03:46 PM

GED II: I Shot A Man In Malfeas, Just To Watch Him Die

...can you guess the song I have on right now?

DBs, Alchemicals, and (fallen or non-fallen) Solars?

Dragon-Bloods I'm guessing don't have access to anything that would let them impersonate another Exalted type on the metaphysical level, which is what really matters in this kind of thing.

Alchemicals don't even know other types of Exalted exist, so they have nuthin'.

Solars probably have something in the Night caste trees, Abyssals maybe too, but Infernals have hands down the best disguise charm in the game, Black Mirror Shintai. Which replaces your character sheet with the target's. Even pre-BMS, they have Charms that let them disguise themselves almost perfectly and a Charm that lets you mask the nature of your Essence to appear as whatever you want it to be. These are all in the Ebon Dragon's Charmset.

The_Snark

2011-01-18, 03:58 PM

How easy is it for one type of Exalt to disguise himself as another type of Exalt? I know Lunars have Ten Thousand Heroes Face, and Sidereals have Sorcerer resplendent destinies and their Arcane Fate disguise bonuses, plus (Type) Exalt Ways from Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style to briefly imitate their anima effects. What about DBs, Alchemicals, and (fallen or non-fallen) Solars?

Abyssals have a Larceny Charm that allows them to masquerade as Solars (and Solars have a Mirror version, though it doesn't seem quite as useful). It's pretty cheap to maintain, but it doesn't hold up to Essence Sight.

Infernals have the Ebon Dragon Charms Loom-Snarling Deception, which lets you impersonate whoever you like and can be upgraded with Eldritch Secrets Mastery to fool Essence perception. I don't think it does anything to mask your anima banner or Obvious Charm use, though, so it's best used carefully.

Alchemicals have Trans-Chosen Emulator, which lets them mimic the anima banner and caste mark (or lack thereof) of any caste and type of Exalted they've ever seen. It doesn't give you the anima power, but still.

Lunars have Shifting Penumbra Stance, which doesn't disguise you as any other sort of Exalt but does make it impossible to determine what kind of supernatural being you are, even if the observer would normally recognize a Lunar. I... actually don't remember Ten Thousand Heroes Face; where's it from?

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 03:59 PM

Thanks!

EDIT: Now that I look again, Ten Thousand Heroes Face is homebrew. But it's by the Demented One, and since he's now an official writer there's a chance that it'll get officially released through Ink Monkeys. Shifting Penumbra Stance will do, though.

I definitely like "Weddings Are An Act of Villainy," especially because I finally read RotSE. Which I loved, somewhat to my surprise, especially the
Lotus Massacre.
Because I'd gotten the impression that it was "The Scarlet Empress personally murders every single Sidereal, except maybe the PCs. Deal with it." When in fact it's "A bunch of Sidereals die, and Kejak dies. How many depends; some didn't make it to the meeting they got attacked at, some explicitly survive the raid and drive off the attacking Infernals after killing a lot of them, and even part of Kejak's Empress-assassination task force may survive."
It also had lots of totally awesome possible moments, like the UCS blessing and forgiving the ghosts of the dead Solars and telling them to go forth and be righteous. And the UCS's assassination, and his vengeance. And the explicitly noted possibility of using an Astrological Charm to appoint a new Unconquered Sun; searching the world for the perfect candidate would be an incredibly epic campaign in and of itself. And Gaia making the Scarlet Empress into a new Elemental Pole of Earth, which in context is just the best possible ending.

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-18, 04:03 PM

Abyssals have a Larceny Charm that allows them to masquerade as Solars (and Solars have a Mirror version, though it doesn't seem quite as useful). It's pretty cheap to maintain, but it doesn't hold up to Essence Sight.

Infernals have the Ebon Dragon Charms Loom-Snarling Deception, which lets you impersonate whoever you like and can be upgraded with Eldritch Secrets Mastery to fool Essence perception. I don't think it does anything to mask your anima banner or Obvious Charm use, though, so it's best used carefully.

Alchemicals have Trans-Chosen Emulator, which lets them mimic the anima banner and caste mark (or lack thereof) of any caste and type of Exalted they've ever seen. It doesn't give you the anima power, but still.

Lunars have Shifting Penumbra Stance, which doesn't disguise you as any other sort of Exalt but does make it impossible to determine what kind of supernatural being you are, even if the observer would normally recognize a Lunar. I... actually don't remember Ten Thousand Heroes Face; where's it from?

...Sidereals have X Exalted Ways, which gives them the caste mark and anima power of a particular type of Exalt.

(Okay, it's an MA charm, buit's SMA..)

horngeek

2011-01-18, 04:07 PM

You know what would be interesting? RotSE spoilers

Both the UCS and Luna dying, and the appointments for their replacements being female and male, respectively.

...this is actually inspired by the Giant's New World articles. :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 04:08 PM

Thanks!

It also had lots of totally awesome possible moments, like [SPOILER]the UCS blessing and forgiving the ghosts of the dead Solars and telling them to go forth and be righteous.
But... but... I had that idea D:

Also, horngeek
Don't be silly. Anyone who is tied to the concept of gender is no Luna. :smalltongue:

a_humble_lich

2011-01-18, 04:38 PM

Also, everyone has access to the Terrestrial Circle Sorcery spell Disguise of the New Face which explicitly lets you mimic the targets anima. Of course, if someone used All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight on you you'd glow like a thing that glows a lot, but sorcery is fairly easy for anyone to get.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 04:39 PM

Because I'd gotten the impression that it was "The Scarlet Empress personally murders every single Sidereal, except maybe the PCs. Deal with it." When in fact it's "A bunch of Sidereals die, and Kejak dies. How many depends; some didn't make it to the meeting they got attacked at, some explicitly survive the raid and drive off the attacking Infernals after killing a lot of them, and even part of Kejak's Empress-assassination task force may survive."
It's also the perfect comeuppance, though only a few Sidereals may be able to relish the true irony; one of which being Kejak. The whole Lotus Massacre mimics the initial Usurpation banquet quite well.

I also especially like that with the Omphalos broken, and the edges of Creation fraying as a multitude of Fair Folk flow inward...they might just ally with Creation to take the Ebon Dragon down. They would rather have the eternal monument to everything they despise continue to stand rather than see the Ebon Dragon victorious. Yes.

I definitely like "Weddings Are An Act of Villainy,"

It is unanimously official, then. :smallbiggrin:

Jokasti

2011-01-18, 04:40 PM

Don't worry about the next thread title. Samsara tells me I will have thought of an awesome one by the time it hits 50.
Hopefully.

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 04:50 PM

Ooh, Disguise of the New Face looks nice, and since it's Terrestrial a mortal could potentially cast it. That opens up a lot of plot; and there are more ways to impersonate other Exalts than I expected.

Incidentally, I asked because I first thought "Hey, infiltrating Autochthonia would be an interesting motivation," then of a Sidereal infiltrating Autochthonia posing as a Starmetal Caste, then a Lunar as a Moonsilver Caste, then wondered whether a wide-ranging mixed circle could do the same. And then I thought it would be hilarious if one of them was an Alchemical who infiltrated their circle impersonating another Exalt when he heard they wanted to get to Autochthonia, then "pretended" to be an Alchemical with them, and basically turning it into a ridiculous series of demaskings.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 04:52 PM

It's also the perfect comeuppance, though only a few Sidereals may be able to relish the true irony; one of which being Kejak. The whole Lotus Massacre mimics the initial Usurpation banquet quite well.

I also especially like that with the Omphalos broken, and the edges of Creation fraying as a multitude of Fair Folk flow inward...they might just ally with Creation to take the Ebon Dragon down. They would rather have the eternal monument to everything they despise continue to stand rather than see the Ebon Dragon victorious. Yes.

Even THEY hate that ****ard? :smallconfused::smalleek::smallbiggrin:

Ooh, Disguise of the New Face looks nice, and since it's Terrestrial a mortal could potentially cast it. That opens up a lot of plot; and there are more ways to impersonate other Exalts than I expected.

Incidentally, I asked because I first thought "Hey, infiltrating Autochthonia would be an interesting motivation," then of a Sidereal infiltrating Autochthonia posing as a Starmetal Caste, then a Lunar as a Moonsilver Caste, then wondered whether a wide-ranging mixed circle could do the same. And then I thought it would be hilarious if one of them was an Alchemical who infiltrated their circle impersonating another Exalt when he heard they wanted to get to Autochthonia, then "pretended" to be an Alchemical with them, and basically turning it into a ridiculous series of demaskings.

I would play that!

a_humble_lich

2011-01-18, 04:57 PM

Drascin

2011-01-18, 05:18 PM

I also especially like that with the Omphalos broken, and the edges of Creation fraying as a multitude of Fair Folk flow inward...they might just ally with Creation to take the Ebon Dragon down. They would rather have the eternal monument to everything they despise continue to stand rather than see the Ebon Dragon victorious. Yes.

Now we need decent Ishvara rules so some players can go all Laashe on Ebby's ass.

I'm pretty sure a fair few Lunars would have an aneurysm if in the end it was Fae that saved Creation, though.

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 05:21 PM

Even THEY hate that ****ard? :smallconfused::smalleek::smallbiggrin:

He's the most hateable thing for everyone ever. The designers really hit it out of the park on that one.

I'm pretty sure a fair few Lunars would have an aneurysm if in the end it was Fae that saved Creation, though.

But it's fun to make Ma-Ha-Suchi cry!

Xefas

2011-01-18, 05:24 PM

But it's fun to make Ma-Ha-Suchi cry!

I dunno about that. Knowing Ma-Ha-Suchi, hes probably developed a Lunar charm that turns tears into rape.

TheCountAlucard

2011-01-18, 05:26 PM

I dunno about that. Knowing Ma-Ha-Suchi, hes probably developed a Lunar charm that turns tears into rape.Probably? :smallconfused: Our circle has dealt with Ma-Ha-Suchi, and let me tell you, there's no probably involving this guy.

Jokasti

2011-01-18, 05:31 PM

He's the most hateable thing for everyone ever. The designers really hit it out of the park on that one.

I love him. It's all just part of his charm.
Don't hate; relate.

golentan

2011-01-18, 05:34 PM

I love him. It's all just part of his charm.
Don't hate; relate.

See, sometimes understanding leads to acceptance.

Sometimes, however, it makes you realize how petty and insignificant, almost cute your previous "hate" was compared to the towering rage that understanding brings.

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 05:36 PM

@Jokasti: You mean "Love to hate him," of course.

I once said "Man, that part of Creation would be so much more pleasant if Ma-Ha-Suchi went back to his original motivation."

Then I thought about it for a moment.

Jokasti

2011-01-18, 05:37 PM

See, sometimes understanding leads to acceptance.

Sometimes, however, it makes you realize how petty and insignificant, almost cute your previous "hate" was compared to the towering rage that understanding brings.
Or maybe you just think you understand. We have a very one sided view. A smear campaign of sorts, by the writers of Exalted.
For the next title, thinking of a reference to Second Edition or Essence 2
.

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 05:47 PM

I noticed a thread with no posts that should go here, so here's the only post in it:

So there i was, minding my own business, when i came across this book. The broken winged crane supplement for infernal exalted.

Infernal just got so much cooler.

I'd like to get every ones thoughts on this, assuming that the 'rise of the scarlet empress' is a possible future rather than a certain one, how do you think this is likely to play out?

Broken Winged Crane provides rules not only for making bigger badder high essence infernal exalted, but it provides rules for (when hitting essence 9, which to be fair is not likely in most games) becoming a primordial, not a broken primordial, not a yozi... but literally for infernal exalted to_become_primordials in all their glory. immortality and everything.

Now, looking at the entire world, it seems to me infernals get teh shortest end of the stick when starting out (every one wants them dead, solars, most abyssals, all teh sidereals, gods, realm, every one)

but what kind of price is that to pay for the chance to become a true Primordial?

Any way, what are the potential ramifications of this? i mean, it wont have an effect on the immediate future of the cosmology of exalted... but...

I just can't shake the image of 200 years after the events of 'rise of the scarlet empress' some infernal exalted standing up, telling the Ebon dragon he wont 'take this s**t no more' and proceeding to lay down a cosmic smackdown.

discuss:

Xefas

2011-01-18, 05:49 PM

For the next title, thinking of a reference to Second Edition or Essence 2.

But I already made a suggestion. And it was a suggestion by me. That makes it the best suggestion.

...

Solipsistic Rejection of Impossibilities RAAAAAAGE :smallfurious:

(So, I've been doing so poking around with the official maps of Creation and...the distance between the Blessed Isle and the Threshold is really freaking huge. I never realized just how mystical "The Blessed Isle" should seem to mortals outside of it. A Dynast showing up in the threshold would be like Native Americans just randomly showing up in Europe in the ~1500s. Like "Yeah, you've probably heard of us; what's up?")

GryffonDurime

2011-01-18, 05:58 PM

Green Sun Princes don't become Primordials...not really, not ultimately. They never get the kilomote of Essence, they never get a Fetich...but they also never give up their Exaltations. And technically, they get their Charms and Excellency and Immortality at Essence 6, which is much easier for an Infernal to achieve in normal play given Ascendancy Mantle of (Yozi).

Also, there are two faulty assumptions at work here:

Assumption 1: Being a Primordial is better than being an Exalt. False. Patently. Exalted and Primordial Charms exist on the same tier, but any given Exalt has a much broader conceptual playground in which their Charms may operate. In exchange, a Primordial has deeper reserves of motes to draw upon...but they also bear the brunt of their Lesser and Greater Imperfections more keenly, because they can never reach outside of themselves. The Ebon Dragon will never not be weak to Holy. Never. Not without changing who he is (Fetich death) or eliminating Holy as a possible opposition (also not possible, as we now know, while any uncorrupted Solar shards remain in play, along with the Aidenweiss). Bob the Fiend, however, can get a Holy smack in the face, learn his lesson, and also take other Yozi perfects that bridge this hole in the Ebon Dragon's magic.

Assumption 2: The Green Sun Princes are the only ones who become titans. False, but on shakier ground than the above. Solars are long rumored to have paths to becoming Primordials--especially notable because a Solar in freelancer Nephial's infamous 8-year game underwent Primordial apotheosis. At the same time, one can see the beginnings of this in Queen k'Tula. Abyssals have -always- been said to transcend, becoming something worse than the Neverborn. Green Sun Princes are not alone in transcendence. Merely the ones for whom it is the most attractive option.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 06:03 PM

Abyssals have -always- been said to transcend, becoming something worse than the Neverborn.

See, I tried to point this out, but The Rose Dragon didn't believe me. Where is the citation for this? I can't find it. :smallconfused:

Also, why is your avatar all Christmas-y?

GryffonDurime

2011-01-18, 06:14 PM

See, I tried to point this out, but The Rose Dragon didn't believe me. Where is the citation for this? I can't find it. :smallconfused:

Also, why is your avatar all Christmas-y?

First question: I'll look.

Second question: unmitigated laziness.

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-18, 06:15 PM

What GSPs become is, however, better than being a GSP.

Or, in some ways, being a Solar.

The Glyphstone

2011-01-18, 06:16 PM

Exalted Discussion II: This Thread Cost Us Build Points?

golentan

2011-01-18, 06:34 PM

Says who GSPs don't get the kilomote of essence and the like, and do lose their exaltation. They get to design their own charm trees based off of those of the yozis. To my mind, that explicitly includes (green sun prince) Cosmic Principle, which covers the previous comments.

The best part, as long as he doesn't learn/develop (green sun prince) Pantheon Unfurling, he never has to cope with the difficulties inherent in Fetich souls, and as long as they don't do (green sun prince) Glory Incarnate they still maintain the flexibility to act outside the purview of their excellency.

This is why GSPs are Primordial 2.0. They get so many of the benefits, none of the drawbacks they don't choose to inflict on themselves, and having truly ascended (when and if they so choose), they get to give birth to another little baby primordial.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 06:35 PM

Exalted Discussion II: This Thread Cost Us Build Points?
Thread 3 should be 'Cheaper with experience points'

Ravens_cry

2011-01-18, 06:39 PM

Heh, I don't play Exalted, though it does sound interesting, but reading the tropes page is like reading what would happen if all the Mary Sues in the universe got together in one world. It's so . . .saturated, like chocolate fudge syrup verses tea with sugar, like a bright florescent orange and yellow reflective vest verses faded blue jeans
It . . . sparkles.

Lix Lorn

2011-01-18, 06:40 PM

And you'd think they interfered...
They don't. IT'S SO MUCH AWESOME.

Mr.Bookworm

2011-01-18, 06:45 PM

(So, I've been doing so poking around with the official maps of Creation and...the distance between the Blessed Isle and the Threshold is really freaking huge.

I never realized just how mystical "The Blessed Isle" should seem to mortals outside of it. A Dynast showing up in the threshold would be like Native Americans just randomly showing up in Europe in the ~1500s. Like "Yeah, you've probably heard of us; what's up?")

I think you're pulling a common mistake of the sci-fi/fantasy writer/reader, and not looking at the scale involved.

The mainland Blessed Isle is roughly 1.4 times the size of Australia (so about 4125000 square miles). The Threshold itself is so big that I'm not even going to try to figure that one out, but it's big. I believe that the part shown on the map encompasses more land then there is on Earth.

The Inland Sea, by comparison, is a measly 400-800 miles in most places. The distance from the east coast of the US to the UK is over 3000 miles. Crossing the Inland Sea is actually fairly trivial.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 06:45 PM

To my mind, that explicitly includes (green sun prince) Cosmic Principle, which covers the previous comments.

Actually, they are explicitly incapable of taking [Dude] Cosmic Principle. Not that you'd want to, I think. Essence 10 for a Devil Tiger is fertile ground. Primordials can't make more charms for themselves. So, lets say the Ebon Dragon has, hypothetically, 20 Essence 10 super-charms. You can have 50, given enough time. Or a hundred. Or however many you feel like getting. And I imagine you can make enough that it starts to look better than gaining a 1000 mote pool coupled with all the downsides. (Maybe at Essence 10, a Devil-Tiger can finally make Immanent Infernal Glory :smallannoyed: /jealous)

It . . . sparkles.

The Abyssals do, anyway.

I think you're pulling a common mistake of the sci-fi/fantasy writer/reader, and not looking at the scale involved.

Actually, now that you point this out, I think I was just under the mistaken impression that the US and Europe were a bit closer than they actually are. My bad.

Lord Raziere

2011-01-18, 06:48 PM

And you'd think they interfered...
They don't. IT'S SO MUCH AWESOME.

ya, it only proves that awesomeness only causes more awesome to grow, rather than awesome being self-interfering. It means the awesomeness is in some way cooperative, since for you to be awesome enough to defeat something,then that something must logically be almost as awesome in the first place in order for you to need to be awesome enough to defeat them.

however, it seems that sueness cancels each other out, mary sues seem only to be mary sues when there are no other sues around, meaning mary sueness can only exist within a vacuum.

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-18, 06:49 PM

The Abyssals do, anyway.

Abyssals are the only Exalts that don't sparkle, having anima banners of darkness so dark it makes other things brighten in comparison.

GryffonDurime

2011-01-18, 06:51 PM

Actually, they are explicitly incapable of taking [Dude] Cosmic Principle. Not that you'd want to, I think. Essence 10 for a Devil Tiger is fertile ground. Primordials can't make more charms for themselves. So, lets say the Ebon Dragon has, hypothetically, 20 Essence 10 super-charms. You can have 50, given enough time. Or a hundred. Or however many you feel like getting. And I imagine you can make enough that it starts to look better than gaining a 1000 mote pool coupled with all the downsides. (Maybe at Essence 10, a Devil-Tiger can finally make Immanent Infernal Glory :smallannoyed: /jealous)

This. Albeit with the caveat that Yozi -can- make new Charms for themselves. They just already made every Charm that they can conceive of making. Thus, Green Sun Princes are a powerful ally because they can create a new Ebon Dragon Charm that, because of his limited mentality, he could never think up on his own. The advantage isn't that there's some arbitrary limit on the number of Charms that a Yozi can have. The advantage is that the Green Sun Prince gets HIS Charms, and the Charms of at least six other Yozi.

a_humble_lich

2011-01-18, 06:53 PM

The mainland Blessed Isle is roughly 1.4 times the size of Australia (so about 4125000 square miles). The Threshold itself is so big that I'm not even going to try to figure that one out, but it's big. I believe that the part shown on the map encompasses more land then there is on Earth.

The area shown on the map is about the same area as the Earth. Of course, the Earth has much more water on it so Creation has much more land area. On the other hand, the Earth doesn't have any Shadowlands or Wyld zones so it kinda balances :smallsmile:

golentan

2011-01-18, 06:53 PM

Actually, they are explicitly incapable of taking [Dude] Cosmic Principle. Not that you'd want to, I think. Essence 10 for a Devil Tiger is fertile ground. Primordials can't make more charms for themselves. So, lets say the Ebon Dragon has, hypothetically, 20 Essence 10 super-charms. You can have 50, given enough time. Or a hundred. Or however many you feel like getting. And I imagine you can make enough that it starts to look better than gaining a 1000 mote pool coupled with all the downsides. (Maybe at Essence 10, a Devil-Tiger can finally make Immanent Infernal Glory :smallannoyed: /jealous).

I read that as "You can never take someone ELSE'S Cosmic Principle."

And point to you, sir. Though I'm still pretty sure the option is there for folks who want to experiment with new varieties of primordials.

Yuki Akuma

2011-01-18, 06:55 PM

Nothing is stopping the Devil Tiger from making a hundred different ten mote essence pool charms.

>.>

The area shown on the map is about the same area as the Earth. Of course, the Earth has much more water on it so Creation has much more land area. On the other hand, the Earth doesn't have any Shadowlands or Wyld zones so it kinda balances :smallsmile:

On the other other hand, Creation is bigger the map. Especially if you go into the Elemental Poles, which just keep going...

Also, you can dig down in Creation and never reach the bottom.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 06:57 PM

Though I'm still pretty sure the option is there for folks who want to experiment with new varieties of primordials.

Oh, the option is there. You just have to die first.

I saved this quote from the first Broken Winged Crane thread on the Exalted forum in a text file for just such an occasion.

Yep.

Well, actually, there's a way to finish your Yozi transformation but it's a bit extreme. Requires fetich death.

Trouble is, you are your fetich. So. You die. Pass on your shard. Your inheritor gets the shard and starts buying up Bob Charms. Then he runs out of stuff to buy-- he has everything Bob invented. He doesn't go Heretical. Starts making new Bob Charms. Eventually, he shoves his way clear up to Bob Cosmic Principle.

Yozi Bob has finally been incarnated into the universe! Through someone else!

How Yozi-like.

GryffonDurime

2011-01-18, 06:58 PM

Nothing is stopping the Devil Tiger from making a hundred different ten mote essence pool charms.

>.>

In the same way that there is no rule against a Solar making a Permanent Charm that lets him learn Lunar, Sidereal, Infernal, and Abyssal charms without a tutor for 2 XP a piece. Or a rule against creating a Charm that lets an Infernal pay 1m to ignore any downsides of any Primordial Charm. These are words you can string together, and there is no rule against bad Charm design...only the fact that it remains bad Charm design.

golentan

2011-01-18, 07:05 PM

The area shown on the map is about the same area as the Earth. Of course, the Earth has much more water on it so Creation has much more land area. On the other hand, the Earth doesn't have any Shadowlands or Wyld zones so it kinda balances :smallsmile:

The full map I have I calculate at just under 2.25 billion square kilometers, or a little more than four times the size of earth. Though I think it might be first age and so has shrunk a bit.

Though autocthonia is the one that gets truly ridiculous, given that it's circumference is 3 times earth IIRC and measures inhabitable space in cubic.

edit: Nope. Second age is 4 times as large as earth.:smallbiggrin:

tonberrian

2011-01-18, 07:15 PM

Nothing is stopping the Devil Tiger from making a hundred different ten mote essence pool charms.

>.>

Other than the sidebar that says you can only learn (Essence) number of them, no.

Xefas

2011-01-18, 07:24 PM

Actually...wait; this revealed an interesting point to me.

Why are there +10 mote charms in the Yozi trees anyway? They have a charm that says "You have 1000 motes; no more, no less". Why do they all also have a charm that says "You have +10 motes"? 'How can they have that charm?', I suppose, would also be a valid question.

The same problem arises with Ascendancy Mantle, but I've always thought that worked better as a Heretical Charm anyway. In fact, wouldn't it make a bit more sense to get rid of all the mote expanders, and just have a Heretical (take this Essence times) mote expander ala Immanent Infernal Glory?

Stuff like Skyfire Seizing Repast and Temple Self Apotheosis would make good potential prerequisites.

GryffonDurime

2011-01-18, 07:25 PM

Xefas

2011-01-18, 07:28 PM

It's because Yozi did not come into existence with all their Charms already learned.

Wouldn't they have had to come into existence, as Primordials, with the Essence 10 charm that says "I am a Primordial", though? Which, coincidentally, also invalidates the existence of their mote expander and essence hopper?

Kris Strife

2011-01-18, 07:34 PM

Abyssals are the only Exalts that don't sparkle, having anima banners of darkness so dark it makes other things brighten in comparison.

The other Exalts glow, not sparkle... Except Sidereal eyes.

Teln

2011-01-18, 07:53 PM

ya, it only proves that awesomeness only causes more awesome to grow, rather than awesome being self-interfering. It means the awesomeness is in some way cooperative, since for you to be awesome enough to defeat something,then that something must logically be almost as awesome in the first place in order for you to need to be awesome enough to defeat them.

however, it seems that sueness cancels each other out, mary sues seem only to be mary sues when there are no other sues around, meaning mary sueness can only exist within a vacuum.

There's nothing wrong with being a special unique snowflake if you're in the middle of a blizzard.

SurlySeraph

2011-01-18, 07:53 PM

In exchange, a Primordial has deeper reserves of motes to draw upon...but they also bear the brunt of their Lesser and Greater Imperfections more keenly, because they can never reach outside of themselves. The Ebon Dragon will never not be weak to Holy. Never. Not without changing who he is (Fetich death) or eliminating Holy as a possible opposition (also not possible, as we now know, while any uncorrupted Solar shards remain in play, along with the Aidenweiss).

Not quite. To quote Return of the Scarlet Empress,
"As it was the judgment of the Most High that determined who is a creature of darkness, the Sun’s death removes this designation from existence and makes Holy Charms largely useless. The Ebon Dragon laughs as his imperfection closes. Nothing can kill him now."

Xefas

2011-01-18, 08:01 PM

Not quite. To quote Return of the Scarlet Empress,
"As it was the judgment of the Most High that determined who is a creature of darkness, the Sun’s death removes this designation from existence and makes Holy Charms largely useless. The Ebon Dragon laughs as his imperfection closes. Nothing can kill him now."

Maybe Gryff is referring to the fact that any Solar can get "Should The Sun Not Rise" and reinstate Holy as a thing? So, as long as there are Solars, the Ebon Dragon should be scared?

The Rose Dragon

2011-01-18, 08:03 PM

Not quite. To quote Return of the Scarlet Empress,
"As it was the judgment of the Most High that determined who is a creature of darkness, the Sun’s death removes this designation from existence and makes Holy Charms largely useless. The Ebon Dragon laughs as his imperfection closes. Nothing can kill him now."

That was apparently an oversight, as the book was written before the Dreams of the First Age errata. Charms that allow Solars to sustain Holy Charms on their own, such as Zeal (I will never call it that other name, and you can't get me to), should allow those to function against the Ebon Dragon normally.

Should, because by a strict reading of the book, don't.