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Road_Runner
2010-10-14, 09:49 PM
So I'm playing a spellthief who's going with a crossbow as his weapon of choice.

My question is about using the Hide skill to snipe. Trying to snipe is a -20 penalty on your hide check, and it requires a move action. A -20 penalty means you need to have over a 100% chance to succeed with a Hide in the first place (basically trying to snipe reduces your chance of hiding successfully by 100%).

Aside from the fact that I don't see how you could pull this off without some serious investment in Hide, my main question comes from this quote from the PHB:

"It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

So..... sniping is just as hard as hiding while charging the enemy? Also, sniping takes a move action while charging (or doing anything else) does not. The only advantage I can see that sniping has is that if your concealment is a bush or darkness then you could hide again while you couldn't normally (because the opponent sees you, and you can't hide while being observed). It seems like if you had a corner or a pillar to hide behind then you could just attack from behind it and then hide by ducking behind, at no penalty because they just can't see you.

I'm also a little confused about the Hide skill itself. It says "you can run around a corner or behind cover so that you're out of sight and then hide." It seems like hiding behind corners is generally useless, because technically if you're behind a corner they can't see you anyways and if they run around the corner then you lost concealment so you can't hide, right?

Sorry for the wall of text and noob questions. I also realize there are other ways of sneak attack too, especially once I get higher level spells, I'm just interested in being able to use the hide skill. If there is some sort of hiding handbook or guide that explains this stuff (I haven't been able to find one) that would be awesome.

Yorrin
2010-10-14, 10:00 PM
Long story short- the sniping mechanic sucks for the casual player. While it's possible to optimize your Hide skill to truly inane levels, most people can't snipe effectively.

Fizban
2010-10-14, 10:03 PM
So I'm playing a spellthief who's going with a crossbow as his weapon of choice.

My question is about using the Hide skill to snipe. Trying to snipe is a -20 penalty on your hide check, and it requires a move action. A -20 penalty means you need to have over a 100% chance to succeed with a Hide in the first place (basically trying to snipe reduces your chance of hiding successfully by 100%).

Aside from the fact that I don't see how you could pull this off without some serious investment in Hide, my main question comes from this quote from the PHB:

"It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

So..... sniping is just as hard as hiding while charging the enemy? Also, sniping takes a move action while charging (or doing anything else) does not. The only advantage I can see that sniping has is that if your concealment is a bush or darkness then you could hide again while you couldn't normally (because the opponent sees you, and you can't hide while being observed). It seems like if you had a corner or a pillar to hide behind then you could just attack from behind it and then hide by ducking behind, at no penalty because they just can't see you.

I'm also a little confused about the Hide skill itself. It says "you can run around a corner or behind cover so that you're out of sight and then hide." It seems like hiding behind corners is generally useless, because technically if you're behind a corner they can't see you anyways and if they run around the corner then you lost concealment so you can't hide, right?

Sorry for the wall of text and noob questions. I also realize there are other ways of sneak attack too, especially once I get higher level spells, I'm just interested in being able to use the hide skill. If there is some sort of hiding handbook or guide that explains this stuff (I haven't been able to find one) that would be awesome.

Use wands of the 1st level spell Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium), and hide in the bushes 200' away. Bam, penalty canceled. As for hiding around a corner: the point is that you broke their line of sight long enough that they don't see where you hide. You still need something to hide in, so if there isn't concealment around the corner then yeah, you're pretty screwed.

Hague
2010-10-14, 10:03 PM
Just around a corner can still give LOS to lots of things. Remember, you trace from any corner to any corner, so with the wall blocking other lines, you get cover and can hide. However, moving away from the corner, you lose your cover.

Potentially, using another penalty will allow you to move away from the corner while still "hiding," then you may attack without taking a penalty for your cover and again move around the corner and into cover.

Flickerdart
2010-10-14, 10:05 PM
Having greater invisibility means you can ignore your Hide. UMD a wand as soon as you can.

The Beguiler (Shining South) gets a great modifier to Hide from its Small size and racial bonus.

soulchicken
2010-10-14, 10:06 PM
max hide skill
add the dark template to your character for +8 hide
get darkstalker so things have to make spot checks to see you
skill focus hide
cloak of the elven kind
put everything into dex
gloves of dex

You probably want to be able to dump as much damage into 1 shot as you can, otherwise, shooting for only 1d6 a round kinda sucks

be roguish, with craven
get the vest that gives you a d6 sneak attack
there are some bracers that give you another d6
put collision on your bow

that should help, but I would say that there are other folks on these forums that can put my advise to shame.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-14, 10:06 PM
Woodland Archer would be good for this

SurlySeraph
2010-10-14, 10:07 PM
Greater Invisibility is the most straightforward way to snipe. You *can* make a character with a high enough Hide check to snipe effectively (a Whisper Gnome with the Dark template from Tome of Magic is a good start, as it has a +16 bonus to Hide before stats and skill points), but it tends to be a bit silly.

FelixG
2010-10-14, 11:09 PM
are there any magic items that give hide in plain sight?

Road_Runner
2010-10-14, 11:49 PM
Thanks for all the replies!

It sounds like the most practical uses of this skill are going to be:

1) Using Greater Invisibility (I can cast at higher levels or get a wand if I need to)

2) Use Sniper's Shot (I can start casting this at 4th level, or I could just get a wand) from really far away. Still at -20 penalty, but like someone pointed out if its 200 feet away that nullifies it.

(Did I miss anything? Unfortunately I don't really want to invest in that LA template and I would like to stick to Strongheart halfling)

I have one more question:

If there were a corner/wall/large object you could hide behind during a battle, could you theoretically full attack from behind the corner every round, rehiding after you attack so you could keep sneak attacking? I realize its unlikely opponents wouldn't chase after you but my part consists of a 20-foot-reach spiked chain tripper and some prestige class guy that loses casting for a bunch of rebuke undead stuff and bonus rebuke undead related feats.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 12:09 AM
are there any magic items that give hide in plain sight?
The collar of umbral metamorphosis gives you the Dark template for 22,000 GP. However, the Dark HiPS is the worst one, since it doesn't obviate the need for cover/concealment. You would do wisely to invest in a permanent item of darkness, which provides you with concealment and thus the ability to hide.

Hague
2010-10-15, 12:15 AM
There's no written rule stating that you can full attack from behind cover while still hiding, specifically. However, it says that you can snipe by taking a -20 penalty and make one attack. However, one could argue that you can continually make more iterative attacks by taking a greater penalty. So if you wanted to full attack with 4 attacks, you get a -80 penalty to your hide check result.

Edit: Isn't there an armor property that blurs you? Seems like that would be less conspicuous as it still grants concealment.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 12:35 AM
Darkness is probably cheaper, but blur works too.

Getting around the niggly "move to hide" restriction can be done one of two ways:
a) Extra move action (hustle, belt of battle)
b) Multiple attacks (Rapid Shot, basically)
Rapid Shotting everyone is still only -20.

Road_Runner
2010-10-15, 12:42 AM
The collar of umbral metamorphosis gives you the Dark template for 22,000 GP. However, the Dark HiPS is the worst one, since it doesn't obviate the need for cover/concealment. You would do wisely to invest in a permanent item of darkness, which provides you with concealment and thus the ability to hide.

Ah, thanks for that suggestion. That's a nice item, I wish it had a permanent duration though, or atleast a swift action activation.

EDIT: Oh wait, under "variants" for the item it says the non-permanent version is 10k, the 22k version is the permanent one. That's much more helpful.


There's no written rule stating that you can full attack from behind cover while still hiding, specifically. However, it says that you can snipe by taking a -20 penalty and make one attack. However, one could argue that you can continually make more iterative attacks by taking a greater penalty. So if you wanted to full attack with 4 attacks, you get a -80 penalty to your hide check result.

Edit: Isn't there an armor property that blurs you? Seems like that would be less conspicuous as it still grants concealment.

Hmmm yes I think you are right about the hiding. Thanks for pointing out the blurring armor though, that would be very helpful. You could also combine it with the umbral collar though for free hiding (well, -20) and sneak attack wherever.

Road_Runner
2010-10-15, 12:52 AM
Darkness is probably cheaper, but blur works too.

Getting around the niggly "move to hide" restriction can be done one of two ways:
a) Extra move action (hustle, belt of battle)
b) Multiple attacks (Rapid Shot, basically)
Rapid Shotting everyone is still only -20.

How does Rapid Shot help you get around the move to hide restriction? Also, what's an example of a darkness item?

ericgrau
2010-10-15, 01:52 AM
200 feet of distance cancels the penalty. There are also armor enchantments and magic items that give up to a +15 to hide.

Cover and concealment are different from total cover and concealment. Total cover means you can't be hit (nor seen) regardless and total concealment means you can't be seen regardless. Cover, such as peeking around a corner or from behind something, OTOH provides +4 AC and you can still attack and be seen unless hiding. Concealment, such as shadows, only provides a 20% miss chance but you can still attack and be seen unless hiding. Yeah, you can't enter either and hide while being observed. You have to set it up before the fight and stay hidden or you can't hide again.

Rapid shot only lets you make extra attacks on a full attack, so it doesn't help sniping.

FelixG
2010-10-15, 04:41 AM
How does Rapid Shot help you get around the move to hide restriction? Also, what's an example of a darkness item?

Wand of Darkness?

Or maybe some item that isnt spell completion but still has charges

Greenish
2010-10-15, 04:53 AM
One method could be just full attacking, and then grabbing a method to move without using your move actions. Say, Travel Devotion would work, though I think you're not considered to be hiding anymore after the first attack.

FelixG
2010-10-15, 04:55 AM
One method could be just full attacking, and then grabbing a method to move without using your move actions. Say, Travel Devotion would work, though I think you're not considered to be hiding anymore after the first attack.

I think you are still considered to be hiding, its just painfully obvious as to where you are at that point..kinda hard to remain hiding after you stab the guy in the back after all, either his body crumples loudly to the ground or he cries out, its one of the reasons i like the Pathfinder Assassin, they can kill things all silent like.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 05:01 AM
I think you are still considered to be hiding, its just painfully obvious as to where you are at that point.Well, that's okay, since you move to another spot after full attacking, and hide as a part of that movement.

FelixG
2010-10-15, 05:06 AM
Well, that's okay, since you move to another spot after full attacking, and hide as a part of that movement.

Well not if you are sniping

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm

It takes a movement action to hide after a snipe, where as normally you could very well hide as part of a movement.

THOUGH, what could be done, is hide next to a short wall, take the shot, then drop prone (free action) to gain total concealment, thus negating the need for a hide check, as they couldnt even see you if you made one.

GM may call for a move silently check though at the same penalty to see if you hit the deck without making much noise in your hurry though... -shrug- its an idea!

Greenish
2010-10-15, 05:12 AM
Well not if you are snipingI wasn't talking about the "Snipe" special option no more. You can't full attack when you snipe, so that should've been obvious.

FelixG
2010-10-15, 05:13 AM
I wasn't talking about the "Snipe" special option no more. You can't full attack when you snipe, so that should've been obvious.

True, missed that part, i only did a search for the word move in the document XD

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-15, 05:21 AM
Can you snipe with a reach weapon? IIRC they operate like ranged attacks in many ways. What about with a whip?

FelixG
2010-10-15, 05:23 AM
Can you snipe with a reach weapon? IIRC they operate like ranged attacks in many ways. What about with a whip?



Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.


I suppose as long as its one ranged attack (not melee) you could snipe...you could throw the ranged weapon or whip at them? :smallwink:

Edhelras
2010-10-15, 05:44 AM
Not sure if I got this right - but: When you're sniping, you're typically using cover of some sort, right? I mean, that's what a sniper does. Covering/concealing himself, then shooting from afar, then hiding and some time later he suddenly appears to take another shot.

So to snipe, you need cover or concealment, and I would guess that you typically would be using some structure that provided no Line of Sight from your target to yourself. Like a wall, with a corner or with arrow-slits.

You can fire one shot (a standard action), then use your move action to walk out of Line of Sight. You don't need to make a separate Move action just to hide (like in this rule http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm ), because you're out of sight. Of course the targets will be staring at the point from which you fired your shot, but you don't take a -20 to Hide if you appear from another point - because no one is looking for you there.

If what you want to do is firing continually from one fixed position and just use your Hide skill to be able to attack without counter-attack, that basically needs HiSP and concealment and very high Hide skills, and still you can't use Full attack.

If you want to attack with Full attack at a ranged target, without anyone confronting you, that's dreaming... :smallamused: Or it's called ranged attack, simply. You can still do it from behind cover, but you should expect melée fighters to approach you.

As I see it, sniping consists of infrequent, irregular attacks that originate from different places relative to the target, either killing it outright with a lucky shot (Sneak attack) or wearing it down, slowly. Much of the "power" of sniping isn't in the massive damage, but rather in the psychological effect because of the unpredictability.

Chrono22
2010-10-15, 05:46 AM
Use some kind of constantly renewing concealment effect, such as a bottle of smoke. The -20 penalty to your hide skill is kind of irrelevant if your opponents can't see you anyway.

Rasman
2010-10-15, 06:11 AM
are there any magic items that give hide in plain sight?

one level dip into Shadow Dancer gives it to you...not to mention it's other niceness

Lev
2010-10-15, 06:42 AM
+20 to attack is much easier than +20 to hide
Also, range increments can go up to 10, and that's -2 for each.
A level 1 spell will give you +20 to your next attack, a repeating heavy crossbow has a range increment of 120'.

This means for a level 1 spell you can shoot 1200' from cover at your attack before the spell.
Throw up a camo net, use a bit of hidey stuff, there you go.

Being able to sneak attack from any range is a must, so is poison.

Hell, even running at full speed a 30' base speed covers what? 120' a round?
That's 10 whole rounds, by the time he gets to you great timing! Your poison just hit secondary.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-15, 07:07 AM
Remember the spot penalties for distance, too.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 08:08 AM
There's no written rule stating that you can full attack from behind cover while still hiding, specifically. However, it says that you can snipe by taking a -20 penalty and make one attack. However, one could argue that you can continually make more iterative attacks by taking a greater penalty.
I don't see how that would be at all useful, as each Sniping Hide attempt requires a move action. Do you have 4 extra move actions in your back pocket?

Lhurgyof
2010-10-15, 08:12 AM
Also, shooting more than 2 or 3 shots from the same spot is nothing any sniper would ever do. You'd be insanely obvious to anybody, no matter if you have an 80 hide check.

Person_Man
2010-10-15, 08:49 AM
If you're more then 30 feet away from your enemy you do not normally qualify for Sneak Attack. (There's a feat that pushes it up a little somewhere, but it's generally not worth the investment). So sniping from any appreciable distance is a bad idea for Spellthieves.

Even with Hide in Plain Site, you still suffer the -20 penalty to your Hide check once your enemy is aware of you. HiPS just removes the necessity for cover or concealment.

Similarly, Invisibility or Greater Invisibility can be bypassed with various magics and abilities, which you will see a lot of if you use them every combat - ie, you should save them for boss battles.

And unless you're fighting in a solo campaign, Hiding during combat basically just means that enemies will target your allies more often then you. Theoretically that could be a good move if everyone else in your party has higher defenses then you, but if they don't, you're just screwing them.

ericgrau
2010-10-15, 09:19 AM
I thought he was getting around that with spells. Otherwise, hey, get around it with spells. What's it called? I think it's 1st or 2nd level. You'll need to get silent spell too and a rod of lesser quicken might be nice, though expensive.

If not then ya you want a ranger or fighter or such. The damage dice may not be as impressive but it's still good once you stack enough magic items, feats, buffs, etc. And you also hit more often. Overall that might even make the average damage higher once you consider not everything can be sneak attacked. And you can whittle the enemy down safely over time unlike someone at close range.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 10:54 AM
How does Rapid Shot help you get around the move to hide restriction? Also, what's an example of a darkness item?
Sorry, I meant Manyshot, not Rapid Shot. You don't need to be using the Snipe option if you have HiPS, so just shoot your arrows, then use your move action to hide.

Goudaa
2010-10-15, 11:07 AM
A simple and cheap solution i've done in the past with roguey types is to get:

A) ring of the ebon eyes (SC spell)
B) stone with darkness spell on it
C) hide/snipe at night time

Lev
2010-10-15, 05:15 PM
If you're more then 30 feet away from your enemy you do not normally qualify for Sneak Attack. (There's a feat that pushes it up a little somewhere, but it's generally not worth the investment). So sniping from any appreciable distance is a bad idea for Spellthieves.

Even with Hide in Plain Site, you still suffer the -20 penalty to your Hide check once your enemy is aware of you. HiPS just removes the necessity for cover or concealment.

Similarly, Invisibility or Greater Invisibility can be bypassed with various magics and abilities, which you will see a lot of if you use them every combat - ie, you should save them for boss battles.

And unless you're fighting in a solo campaign, Hiding during combat basically just means that enemies will target your allies more often then you. Theoretically that could be a good move if everyone else in your party has higher defenses then you, but if they don't, you're just screwing them.

SNIPER’S SHOT
Divination
Level: Assassin 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/
wizard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
While muttering a short chant you focus
your awareness, looking only at the areas
of your foe that seem most vital to its
survival.
Your ranged attacks made before the
start of your next turn can be sneak
attacks regardless of the distance
between you and your target. You
must still fulfill the other conditions
for making a sneak attack against the
target.
This spell doesn’t grant you the ability
to make a sneak attack if you don’t
already have that ability.
Talkin 1200' sneak attack + poison, yo.

Doesn't matter if your other abilities work, if you are taking out the king then you don't really want to get caught in a scrim. I mean a level 1 wizard could technically poison a foe from 1200' at the same time too with another shot.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-15, 05:21 PM
Remember the spot penalties for distance, too.

That works both ways; make sure you know where your target is.

ericgrau
2010-10-15, 07:43 PM
Targets aren't usually hiding and there usually is no spot check. Or if they are hard to see for another reason then the DC is much lower since distance is the only factor (hiding isn't). The exception is sneaking targets but that would only happen if they are aware of you and even then if they break cover within your line of sight you automatically see them (no check) and they can't hide again until they get total cover. Then they may go back to hiding in cover.

If you're still worried then eyes of the eagle give +5 to spot and are fairly cheap. At the very least you could use it to snipe from 50' further away to effectively get another +5 to hide, in addition to the armor enchants that straight-up boost hide. But ya, against 90% of foes if your DM is asking for a check at all, except maybe an easy check, then he's doing it wrong.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-15, 08:16 PM
Targets aren't usually hiding and there usually is no spot check. Or if they are hard to see for another reason then the DC is much lower since distance is the only factor (hiding isn't). The exception is sneaking targets but that would only happen if they are aware of you and even then if they break cover within your line of sight you automatically see them (no check) and they can't hide again until they get total cover.
That perspective is in conflict with the skill rules.
Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
...
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.
From Player's Handbook on page 64:
{table="head"]Difficulty (DC) | Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) | Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)[/table]

So not only is a check required (and if you fail, you've just proved that the target is difficult to see), but a target you failed to see when you first had line of sight to it requires a move action Spot recheck.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 09:51 PM
If you're more then 30 feet away from your enemy you do not normally qualify for Sneak Attack. (There's a feat that pushes it up a little somewhere, but it's generally not worth the investment). So sniping from any appreciable distance is a bad idea for Spellthieves.

Crossbow sniper. Still, only 60 feet, which isn't far enough for distance to help mitigate the hide penalty.

A good feat for tactical reasons, but not enough to make sniping a viable tactic.

ericgrau
2010-10-15, 10:49 PM
That perspective is in conflict with the skill rules.
From Player's Handbook on page 64:
{table="head"]Difficulty (DC) | Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) | Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)[/table]

So not only is a check required (and if you fail, you've just proved that the target is difficult to see), but a target you failed to see when you first had line of sight to it requires a move action Spot recheck.
That's still a million times easier than seeing someone who is hiding. Without cover their hide modifier and die roll irrelevant, leaving only an easy spot DC.

RAW also says that spot is primarily for seeing hiding things, and that a secondary use is seeing things that are difficult to see. So technically there's a contradiction in RAW between that statement and the table. Either you could roll for everything or you could say "Wait, that's not hard to see don't roll for it." But practically they are really saying the same thing as there's no point in rolling a DC 0 check.

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 11:56 PM
Crossbow sniper. Still, only 60 feet, which isn't far enough for distance to help mitigate the hide penalty.

A good feat for tactical reasons, but not enough to make sniping a viable tactic.

There is a level one spell quoted in this very thread that allows sneak attacks at any range.

Lev
2010-10-16, 05:35 AM
Creation spells are a good way to generate ammo and poisons, if you do it right you can time it so everything you used for the snipe will magically disappear to avoid their tracking later.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 08:34 AM
There is a level one spell quoted in this very thread that allows sneak attacks at any range.

Well, he said feat, so I figured I'd pop it in there for him.

I made a build that's capable of this once. I stuffed it in my book o' NPCs that I'm writing. Your standard long ranged type, with various bonuses to range, with a healthy dose of hide and spot(so he can actually see his targets).

All he needs to do is choose his terrain wisely, such that he has cover(like a forest), and his targets don't have enough to escape. Sneak attack isn't the purpose of it(though it could be), it's simply a way to deliver attacks with almost impunity, as it is very difficult to determine the shooters exact location.

FelixG
2010-10-16, 09:29 AM
Well, he said feat, so I figured I'd pop it in there for him.

I made a build that's capable of this once. I stuffed it in my book o' NPCs that I'm writing. Your standard long ranged type, with various bonuses to range, with a healthy dose of hide and spot(so he can actually see his targets).

All he needs to do is choose his terrain wisely, such that he has cover(like a forest), and his targets don't have enough to escape. Sneak attack isn't the purpose of it(though it could be), it's simply a way to deliver attacks with almost impunity, as it is very difficult to determine the shooters exact location.

I could see that being a very scary encounter if he has some wilderness traps set up, some natural poisons and the like.

true_shinken
2010-10-16, 09:35 AM
All he needs to do is choose his terrain wisely, such that he has cover(like a forest), and his targets don't have enough to escape. Sneak attack isn't the purpose of it(though it could be), it's simply a way to deliver attacks with almost impunity, as it is very difficult to determine the shooters exact location.
I've been toying with such a concept for a group of (elite) mooks. Care to share that build?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 09:44 AM
Well, I'll save all the gritty details for when I actually publish it, but the basic build is Fighter 4, Ranger 1, Deepwood Sniper 3, Cragtop Archer 4, for all sorts of fun ranged abilities.

The fighter 4 could probably be optimized by replacing the two levels of fighter with something else, but I used a fair bit of feats to give him some nice options for close range too, so for a level 12 melee type, he's capable of posing a real threat to any party that doesn't have wind wall(the bane of ranged everywhere).

FelixG
2010-10-16, 09:46 AM
I have also been toying with an idea, care to give thoughts on the simple outline?

First some preface, i run sandbox worlds with different groups motivations etc giving the players free reign, most groups have a strong head, suitable BBEG or boss battle type figures.

I was toying with the idea of a group that has strong mooks, but if they go after the group the head of the organization will be truly unimpressive to fight, a class with great mental attributes and the ability to lead, but he is physical disabled, needing canes or even a primitive wheelchair to move about.

This figure would likely be LE, kindly, warm even to outsiders, a warm smile and insisting they call him Uncle (name), the kind of person who is charismatic and able to draw people to his cause and smart enough to be able to give them a training regime that will make them the best even if he can not follow them.

Just a lil something to make the players go 0.o and see if they will consider laying the smack down on this kindly ol cripple to meet their own goals.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 09:50 AM
I like it. Player too often, when faced with a random evil organization, jump straight for the head of it. Kill the leader, win. It's pretty much the basic outline for I don't know how many campaigns. Obstacles generally consist entirely of figuring out who the leader is, how to get to him, and how to kill him, with the rest of the organization being speed bumps on that path.

I've often thought that such a BBEG centric approach need not be the only one.

true_shinken
2010-10-16, 09:52 AM
The fighter 4 could probably be optimized by replacing the two levels of fighter with something else, but I used a fair bit of feats to give him some nice options for close range too, so for a level 12 melee type, he's capable of posing a real threat to any party that doesn't have wind wall(the bane of ranged everywhere).
Nice, I'll probably go with a bunch of githyanki Fighter 6 in my game.
Well, maybe 8. 12 archers would be a damn pain to play - 6 archers is a lot more reasonable.
Or maybe I should use them as gishes. Or assassins. Them, now I just don't know... maybe 2 of each. Oh, I can't make up my mind.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 09:53 AM
That's at once both the benefit and the bane of 3.5....so very many choices.

I figured I'd make a book of 101 various NPCs that were completely statted out, and were actually decently good at what they did. So tired of seeing terrible, terrible npcs in adventures, with toughness used as a filler feat everywhere.

FelixG
2010-10-16, 09:55 AM
Nice, I'll probably go with a bunch of githyanki Fighter 6 in my game.
Well, maybe 8. 12 archers would be a damn pain to play - 6 archers is a lot more reasonable.
Or maybe I should use them as gishes. Or assassins. Them, now I just don't know... maybe 2 of each. Oh, I can't make up my mind.

If you want to be turely cruel, have two characters, one being the archer, his arrows all containing drow poison, the second character is an assassin, just waiting to pounce on a character who is knocked unconsous by the drow poison.

Lev
2010-10-16, 04:33 PM
If you want to be turely cruel, have two characters, one being the archer, his arrows all containing drow poison, the second character is an assassin, just waiting to pounce on a character who is knocked unconsous by the drow poison.
Even better, have 3 people with darkvision (with fan of furious flames) and one sniper. Hide and wait at night for a torch carrier (fan carrier readies a fan action), zip goes an arrow into one of the non-torch carrying party members, then fan comes out WOOSH the torch EXPLODES instantly dealing damage to the area and permanently extinguishing it. Then the rest of your party starts firing drow poison arrows from 50'. Drow gank squad.