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View Full Version : DM's: How do you handle them?



Kaun
2010-10-15, 12:32 AM
Your dice?

Do you roll them open to the players or behind the shield?

Have you always done it the way you do?

What are your reasons and experiances that have formed your preferance for either way?

The reason i ask this is up untill now i have been an exclusively behind the shield man but i am thinking about switching sides and was looking for some insite from my fellow play grounders.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-15, 01:57 AM
Bribe them with snacks and follow their plot hooks, and they will usually be amenable to your needs.

Oh, that's not what you meant.

Seffbasilisk
2010-10-15, 02:28 AM
I used to roll openly, now I hang back. I find myself fudging FOR the players far more than the beasties, but they're a generally contentious lot, and if my rolls are transparent, they object most vehemently to fudging, and I so hate explaining myself while DMing.

I still rolls stats, and critical moments openly.

I see it more as putting on display, and not a matter of trust. For if they trust implicitly, or not at all, you might as well put the dice away and just play storyteller.

BobVosh
2010-10-15, 02:39 AM
Openly, unless my players don't know the number/if any rolls are going on.

Also unlike the poster above I never, ever fudge a roll. I don't roll at all if I want something to occur a certain way, no reason to do it any other way.

Mastikator
2010-10-15, 02:46 AM
If they're not supposed to know if they succeed or when the die is rolled (for example spot or appraise), then behind the shield.
Other than that? Nah, still behind the shield :P
Unless they're supposed to know, then I roll behind the shield and tell them unless they object.

LordBlades
2010-10-15, 02:53 AM
My DM usually rolls beind the screen, to provide some more suspense in combat (players tend to react differently to a monster tha just hit them by rolling a 19 than to one that just hit them by rolling a 2), but we can always ask beforehand for a roll to be made out in the open (usually for save-or-die effects) or to see the dice after he rolled.

He never goes easy on us, and I really think he doesn't fudge much(so far i know of a single instance where he did so, but it was in some very special circumstances: fighting a CR 22 dragon at lvl 13).

Killer Angel
2010-10-15, 02:53 AM
Behind the shield.
It's not a matter of fudge or not, but sometime you had to keep the roll secret, so why make distinction?
Eventually, the only time I roll openly, it's for some climax moment (the ST of a BBEG, etc)

Drakevarg
2010-10-15, 03:25 AM
I use the screen, though it's more to keep the dice nearby, and it's a convienient wall to bounce them off. (Usually if I don't throw them AT something, they'll just roll off the table. :smallannoyed:) I honestly don't care if they see what I roll, since I usually only have a vague idea of what the DC is of the challenge I just made up that second. :smalltongue:

Koury
2010-10-15, 03:34 AM
I actually am fond of printing out a page stuffed to the gills with columns of numbers and cross them off as I use them.

Well, not for combat, but for any secret rolls, I use it.

Combat, I roll openly. Fudging defeats the whole point of rolling, for me.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 04:54 AM
I've never used a DM screen, actually.

That said, I do occasionally roll dice where the players can't see them, either because it's something they shouldn't know the outcome of yet, or because it's something that may require fudging. I don't let my dice get in the way of a good plot :smallsmile:

Badgerish
2010-10-15, 04:58 AM
I always roll in the open. If it's a secret roll that the players are not meant to know of, I still roll in the open and pick it up sharpish.

Also, I use different dice for DMing than for playing (mostly)

FelixG
2010-10-15, 04:59 AM
I normally use a dice roller instead of dragging my dice around everywhere (I love my phone :smallbiggrin: ) so i would likely be considered behind the screen (small pun there, har)

When i DO use dice (rarely) i roll them openly but grin when i do, that always gets the players nervous.

Another good thing if i roll openly is to just pick up a dice and roll it for fun, no game consequence so my players dont really know what im rolling for or when, it might be something important or it might not.

Edit: On a related note, i am wondering, how many people here name their dice sets?

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-15, 05:31 AM
I use a screen when I have a screen, and it's not combat. As for naming my dice sets, I do not, but I also have certain dice sets for certain things (One for NPCs, one for as a player, and the rest for monsters)

Kaun
2010-10-15, 05:34 AM
mmm all interesting,

I have a feeling i may be fudging to much (mainly to the players benifit) and i thought letting them fall infront of the screen my force me to stop that.

Thoughts or sugestions?

Chrono22
2010-10-15, 05:43 AM
I roll openly. I have nothing to hide... well, at least not behind a screen.

I've always rolled openly, although I did try out rolling behind a screen once. Mostly rolling behind the screen damaged too much credibility for the players, to really justify being able to fiat results. Besides, with so many other factors under a GM's control, you don't really need to fiat roll results anyway.

Aotrs Commander
2010-10-15, 05:47 AM
I roll behind the screen. That way, if I need to adjust anything (like to not kill them all), they'll never know. Heck, my dice are usually so poor you'd think I was fudging them just rolling normally! (Though sometimes I'll lift the screen up for dramatic to show the PCs a particularly bad roll (or just tell them), which causes them endless amusment.)

(Of course, I only bother with that when in danger of something happening that is unrecoverable from, like a TPK - which I have never had - or the PCs are too low level or in the wrong system (say, Rolemaster or WFRP) for raise dead or some other nasty deliberating permenant effect. I work on perceived threat. If the players believe they were THAT CLOSE to a horrible death, I find I get the tension (more in fact) without actually having to do it. And death is relatively common at higher levels, at least on D&D means you don't have to worry about it being a permenant problem). And, like I say, you'd never actually know I was doing it, since I have to do it only very rarely and, like I say, my dice rolls are bad enough when I'm trying to kill them...)

Also, randomly rolling an unspecified number of dice behind the screen and grinning evilly is a great way of getting to the players.

And if I do choose to break my own protocol to roll something out in the open...well, that usually causes the players to worry... (Which is, of course, the point.)

At the end of the day, I consider the dice to be the absolute least important aspect of a roleplaying game (as opposed to a wargame, where, in the absense of an impartial DM, they have a much greater importance). I consider them nothing more than random number generators (despite the traditional humour otherwise). Their function is to generate a reasonable amount of variance to task resolutution, nothing more, and save me from having to fiat everything. That is, they are part of the game, but not THE game, not the defining aspect. 99.99% of the time, I'll let them do their job unimpeded. But I will step in if I think they are being too random to the detrement of the game. But you'll never know when it is, since my DMing is basically mostly a big black box. (Sure, I'll tell you things like AC and whatnot - once you've hit for the first time, and occasionally let things like attack bonuses slip if they're really good or really laughable (more often than not after the session though) But mostly, the players only get the minimum required mechanical data they need in data terms - and no LESS than that - everything else is in-game descriptions.)

Generally, though, I find these days I have to fudging dice do that less and less, as I have other control methods (fate points for the PCs, my Defiant template for bosses or even just changing the tactics a bit).

Doomboy911
2010-10-15, 05:57 AM
My group protests that they should be allowed to make their own roles and I have trouble objecting most of the time.

Drascin
2010-10-15, 07:13 AM
Always behind the screen, for much the same reasons some have mentioned. It allows you to do those Spot/Search checks somewhere where the players won't know if they truly find nothing or they just failed to find anything, it allows the ocassional "oh God this roll is stupid let's tone it down and just get him to unconscious" moments, and it lets you roll random dice behind it for nothing at all so that the players get a bit psyched out :smalltongue:.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-15, 07:18 AM
Usually I keep them secret, but if I'm playing online I don't mind the players seeing them.

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 07:34 AM
Only when it's life or death for somebody's favorite character (after they run out of plot armor), do I roll in the open. The rest is behind the screen.

Killer Angel
2010-10-15, 07:46 AM
I roll openly. I have nothing to hide... well, at least not behind a screen.


Disguise checks. Forgery checks. Sentinels' spot.
A lot of rolls should always be made secretly, and it's not a matter of fudging.

panaikhan
2010-10-15, 07:48 AM
I usually roll everything out in the open. Attack rolls, skill checks, damage - whatever. It helps the players realize exactly what their up against sometimes.
I also, occationally roll dice for no reason whatsoever.

Amphetryon
2010-10-15, 07:58 AM
Only when it's life or death for somebody's favorite character (after they run out of plot armor), do I roll in the open. The rest is behind the screen.

This. One hundred percent this.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-15, 08:09 AM
I had a DM that always rolled right in front of us. Really made the game better, that way you know he isn't fiating anything out.

But then again he's like the best DM I've ever played with, so it was probably more than just rolling in front of us, I just think it helps make it more believable when monsters crit you three times in a row or when monsters make their saving throws when failing would kill them.

But, the only DMs I've had that roll in the open are the most trust-worthy DMs I've played with, so it probably wouldn't matter if they rolled behind a screen.

Kaun
2010-10-15, 08:38 AM
But, the only DMs I've had that roll in the open are the most trust-worthy DMs I've played with, so it probably wouldn't matter if they rolled behind a screen.

How did they build that trust tho?

Crow
2010-10-15, 08:47 AM
I roll in the open. No fudging here.

Totally Guy
2010-10-15, 08:50 AM
Disguise checks. Forgery checks. Sentinels' spot.

We've always rolled those when they become important.

You say you're disguised? Agreed. It's fluff.
You encounter the palace guard, now it's contested. Roll it.

You create a bank note? Ok. You have it.
You use the bank note to buy the horse? Now it's important. Roll it.

Duke of URL
2010-10-15, 08:51 AM
I generally prefer secret rolls. Along with adding random rolls at times just to up the paranoia level, although that can be done with "active" rolls, too.

"Okay, everyone give me a Spot check."
(dice are rolled)
"Hmmm... okay... nothing to see here. Honest. Move along..."

Killer Angel
2010-10-15, 09:01 AM
We've always rolled those when they become important.

You say you're disguised? Agreed. It's fluff.
You encounter the palace guard, now it's contested. Roll it.

You create a bank note? Ok. You have it.
You use the bank note to buy the horse? Now it's important. Roll it.

Well of course.
I was debating the idea of "I always roll in the open". Some skills, by RAW should be rolled behind the screen.

Eventually, you can delay the roll 'til the moment you present the bank note to the store... at that point, yes, it can be rolled in the open, and you suffer immediately the penalty for a failure.

But sometime, you cannot. You roll a bluff Vs a sense motive... you shouldn't know if the npc believed you, or if later you'll have a bad surprise.


I roll in the open. No fudging here.

The two things are not necessarily related. :smallannoyed:

Cyrion
2010-10-15, 09:07 AM
If I have a screen, I'll roll behind it but mostly because it's physically between me and the players. The only time I'll fudge something is the occasional monster damage roll. If the PCs are having a string of bad dice rolls I'll lower a monster's damage rolls to string out the combat a few extra rounds and give them a chance to win the "epic" combat of the day.

valadil
2010-10-15, 09:32 AM
I used to roll behind a screen. Switched to rolling in the open 6 months ago. Haven't looked back.

Rolling open lets more stuff happen. Had I rolled 4 crits behind a screen I'd usually change them to 3 hits and a crit, or something like that. Because the actual roll was so unbelievable I was fudging it into something the players would accept. I don't have to do that any more. This means I can have those aberrant rolls show up and the players accept them as legit. By fudging I was screwing my game out of interesting results and giving the players something more predictable.

It also means that I can show sympathy for the PCs when the bad guys do well. If I rolled well behind a screen, I got blamed for the players failing. If I rolled well in front of them, the players saw the dice and know that I wasn't working against them.

The only thing I miss about having a screen is all the useful info on the screen itself. I may just print up a PDF of the GM screen, cut it into individual pages, and stick those in the back of my notebook.

The Big Dice
2010-10-15, 09:40 AM
I used to roll in the open. But then I realised that I'd wiped out my plot hook character for the third time in four sessions by rolling attack and damage dice where everyone could see them.

Now I only show them particularly good or bad rolls. And since when I get to play rather than GM, my dice swing wildly from three crits in a row to not hitting a thing in twelve attacks, my players tend not to question me.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-15, 09:47 AM
How did they build that trust tho?
They're the type of DM that every time their NPCs roll a one, they miss, and every time they roll a 20 there's a confirmed threat. Plus they're great friends of mine.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 11:45 AM
Your dice?

These are my dice. There are many like them, but these...oh wait, these are all mine. Quite a pile.


Do you roll them open to the players or behind the shield?

Open. Don't use a DM screen any more.


Have you always done it the way you do?

Nah, swapped a coupla years back from the other way.


What are your reasons and experiances that have formed your preferance for either way?

Some players were under the assumption that DMs fudged dice. Many expected it, saying that all DMs did it, and some even that all DMs HAD to do it. It was used to justify a great deal of fiat on the part of some DMs, and players expected the same from me. This leads to suspicions of "the DMs gunning for me" or "don't worry, he'll fudge the dice so you wont die". Neither of those are good things for immersion, and I generally dislike DM vs player thinking anyhow.

So, I swapped. A couple people were nervous at first, feeling that their safety net had been taken away, but it wasn't a big deal. Overall, Im happy with the switch.

Note that a certain few rolls must still be hidden, when a player isn't supposed to know the result, so a mini shield is appropriate for them(I typically just use my other hand).

Kylarra
2010-10-15, 11:59 AM
I roll behind a screen, or rather hidden slightly behind my laptop, which amounts to about the same thing.

Knaight
2010-10-15, 02:13 PM
I roll out in the open for all occasions. If it stuff like Bluff vs. Sense Motive, or the not D&D equivalent, I just trust my players not to metagame. For that matter, I don't even have a GM screen.

Kaun
2010-10-15, 06:10 PM
"don't worry, he'll fudge the dice so you wont die".


Yeah this seems to be the mentality that a lot of my players have now which i want to brake.

I think casting the sheild aside might really help.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-10-15, 08:52 PM
I roll behind my screen partly out of convenience (the screen is between us, and I'm not about to reach over or around it every time I need to roll) and partly because I fudge dice. At the request of my players. So yeah. That's how I handle them.

jiriku
2010-10-15, 09:13 PM
Yeah this seems to be the mentality that a lot of my players have now which i want to brake.

I think casting the sheild aside might really help.

Yeah. Like Tyndmyr, my current group came from a background in which massive DM cheating was accepted and normal, and it wasn't healthy for the player's enjoyment of the game. I told my players up front "the dice will fall where they may" and went screenless when I sat in the DM chair. I build trust by rolling publicly, enforcing a "no cheating" rule among my players, and also (importantly) by generally leaning in their favor whenever there's a grey area in the rules or when the player hasn't specified his action (for example, I assume that players always post watches, keep an eye on the ceiling, take cover behind available scenery, etc, even if they haven't specifically mentioned they're doing so). The players can see and feel that I'm working every moment of the game to give them an enjoyable experience.

Scow2
2010-10-15, 09:21 PM
I refuse to fudge. A fudged roll will never make onto or be respected in any of our "Funniest D&D Moments"-type threads.

Dsurion
2010-10-15, 11:35 PM
Typically, I'll roll dice behind my screen. Of course, the only actual rolls I'm doing are the ones that keep people paranoid and have no actual game effect. All of the real rolling is done on the laptop :smalltongue:

I'll also only fudge if it makes the story more interesting. It's only ever been to save someone's life once, and that was because the d20 was in-between two different numbers when it landed.