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Defiant
2010-10-15, 10:14 AM
Greetings! It probably means I study too much and have been doing too much finance reporting when I organize everything (at least loosely) based on this format. Looking back on it, it seems like a good idea given its length.

Executive Summary

I would appreciate any and all input on spells that are useful to either me or (preferably) the rest of the party, that are such that the DM cannot fiat away. Technically, the DM can fiat anything away, but I'm talking about stuff like having Tongues cast that will be useful and cannot be taken away, while an offensive spell like stone to flesh or black tentacles not working on a foe because it's supposed to be a bad-ass guy that you can't just eliminate like that. What are some good spell choices?

Introduction

I will have to preface this saying that I like to play with these people. These are my friends, and the DM is one of my closest friends. I've come to accept the way things work at our D&D table, and just have fun with what's there. There are various limitations, seeing as the party is 10-large, some playing, one or two WoWing or otherwise distacted (so rude), and the DM usually just sits back and says what happens.

For example, we never use a battle grid. This can mean that a lot of abilities are rendered mostly useless. For example, back when I had my Marshal, my ability to grant move action wasn't that helpful for tactical positioning if we didn't even have a battle grid showing where everyone is. Another example is that we don't even roll initiative anymore, and when we do, it's usually just the highest person who rolled, and then go clockwise. It's OK, I don't mind - it makes sense in a game with so many players (even though it might be a little frustrating).

To those who are asking, yes, I've already had a few people complain about the size of the group, although we've always had it like this for like 3 years (I was DMing my own groups for the first little while). As such, it does seem likely that smaller groups may pop up, but this large group, and the idea of it, will live on. Simply because it's fun to everyone, and it's nice to have all friends gathered around in such a way every now and then.

Character Build Prelude

After being frustrated at

- The game style limitations: no battle grid (grant-move action nigh-useless), no initiative (bonus to dex aura nigh-useless)
- The sheer lack of power in the marshal class: I really like the concept behind it which is why I played it, but the class is really lackluster
- The combat strengths of my class being overshadowed: focusing feats and weapons on tripping and disarming (so that I can be at least marginally useful in combat), I frequently came across large and/or really strong opponents so that I was always falling on my face when trying to trip something (prompting laughter), and across opponents that either had no weapons, had weapons but ended up being so strong and powerful that they did more damage when I disarmed their weapons, or had weapons in locked gauntlets
- The social strength of my class being overshadowed: other players wanting to do the talking, and even laughing at why I would want to do the talking, prompting rage-induced "look at my charisma!!", though this died off later on and I could do some of the talking
- The sheer strength of the other players: druid using spells as if a sorcerer (so on her turn, looking around on druid spells and going "hmm, this is a good spell to cast right now"), other players having ridiculously good and powerful magic items (we were told 1 major, 2 minor, so I followed the WBL to arbitrate my approx. total, while others did not, and ended up getting highest-tier magic items)

I decided to play an Incantatrix this time. Mind you, gracefully, not to throw power into everyone's faces.

Character Build
(everything was approved by the DM, he's fairly lenient and cool about things)

Strongheart Halfling Focused Conjurer 5 / Incantatrix 8

Ability Scores
STR 11
DEX 24 (regular 19)
CON 16 (regular 13)
INT 26 (regular 20)
WIS 12
CHA 11

Skills
Concentration 16
Decipher Script 16
Knowledge (arcana) 16
Knowledge (history) 1
Spellcraft 16
Knowledge (architecture) 1
Knowledge (geography) 1
Knowledge (local) 1
Knowledge (nature) 1
Knowledge (nobility) 1
Knowledge (religion) 1
Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1
Knowledge (the planes) 16
Intimidate 4

Feats
ACF: Abrupt Jaunt

Banned Schools: Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy
(Yes, I banned 4; I was focused more on my pleasure of having a Focused Specialist and on having fun with the concept, than on optimizing too much on power... as you can see below, I also took feats like Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials simply because I like them, not because I might get to use them much if at all)

Level 1: Iron Will
Halfling: Extend Spell
Enhanced Summoning: Augment Summoning
Flaw (Vulnerable): Alacritous Cogitation
Flaw (Poor Reflexes): Empower Spell
Level 3: Silent Spell
Wizard 5 Bonus: Still Spell
Level 6: Maximize Spell
Incantatrix (6) Bonus: Quicken Spell
Level 9: Eschew Materials
Incantatrix (9) Bonus: Persistent Spell
Level 12: Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)
Incantatrix (12) Bonus: Chain Spell

To my dismay, I later found out that a lot of the spells that I wanted to buff everyone with could not be chained, so I will have to get reach spell at level 15.

Other Info
HP: 73
Saves (typical): 12/13/20
AC (typical): 28
Initiative: irrelevant (but 7)

Magic Item of +24 to Spellcraft
A bajillion spell components and focuses for all the spells I might want to cast that are on my spell list

Spellbook (long)
Level 7 Spells (31)

Antimagic Ray (Abjur)
Banishment (Abjur)
Dispelling Screen, Greater (Abjur)
Energy Absorption (Abjur)
Energy Immunity (Abjur)
Ghost Trap (Abjur)
Hide From Dragons (Abjur)
Ironguard (Abjur)
Planar Bubble (Abjur)
Sequester (Abjur)
Spell Turning (Abjur)
Choking Cobwebs (Conj)
Mage’s Magnificent Mansion (Conj)
Phase Door (Conj)
Plane Shift (Conj)
Stun Ray (Conj)
Summon Monster VII (Conj)
Teleport, Greater (Conj)
Teleport Object (Conj)
Arcane Sight, Greater (Div)
Scrying, Greater (Div)
Bite of the Werebear (Trans)
Body of War (Trans)
Brilliant Aura (Trans)
Control Weather (Trans)
Elemental Body (Trans)
Ethereal Jaunt (Trans)
Glass Strike (Trans)
Reverse Gravity (Trans)
Spell Matrix (Trans)
Statue (Trans)
Synostodweomer (Trans)
Limited Wish (Univ)


Level 6 Spells (22)

Anticipate Teleportation, Greater (Abjur)
Antimagic Field (Abjur)
Dispel Magic, Greater (Abjur)
Globe of Invulnerability (Abjur)
Guards and Wards (Abjur)
Repulsion (Abjur)
Resistance, Superior (Abjur)
Tunnel Swallow (Abjur)
Acid Fog (Conj)
Freezing Fog (Conj)
Gemjump (Conj)
Planar Binding (Conj)
Steal Summoning (Conj)
Summon Monster VI (Conj)
Analyze Dweomer (Div)
Legend Lore (Div)
Probe Thoughts (Div)
True Seeing (Div)
Disintegrate (Trans)
Flesh to Stone (Trans)
Mage’s Lucubration (Trans)
Move Earth (Trans)
Stone to Flesh (Trans)

Level 5 Spells (34)

Break Enchantment (Abjur)
Contingent Energy Resistance (Abjur)
Duelward (Abjur)
Indomitability (Abjur)
Mage’s Private Sanctum (Abjur)
Mana Flux (Abjur)
Planar Tolerance (Abjur)
Reciprocal Gyre (Abjur)
Zone of Respite (Abjur)
Arc of Lightning (Conj)
Cloudkill (Conj)
Dimension Shuffle (Conj)
Hidden Lodge (Conj)
Major Creation (Conj)
Phantasmal Thief (Conj)
Summon Monster V (Conj)
Summon Undead V (Conj)
Teleport (Conj)
Viscid Glob (Conj)
Wall of Stone (Conj)
Contact Other Plane (Div)
Prying Eyes (Div)
Telepathic Bond (Div)
Baleful Polymorph (Trans)
Blink, Greater (Trans)
Dance of Blades (Trans)
Draconic Might (Trans)
Draconic Polymorph (Trans)
Enlarge Person, Greater (Trans)
Fabricate (Trans)
Fly, Mass (Trans)
Heart of Fire (Trans)
Lightning Leap (Trans)
Overland Flight (Trans)
Reduce Person, Greater (Trans)
Telekinesis (Trans)
Transmute Mud to Rock (Trans)
Vulnerability (Trans)
Permanency (Univ)

Level 4 Spells (34)

Dimensional Anchor (Abjur)
Forceward (Abjur)
Otiluke’s Suppressing Field (Abjur)
Ray Deflection (Abjur)
Ray of Deanimation (Abjur)
Remove Curse (Abjur)
Resist Energy, Mass (Abjur)
Stoneskin (Abjur)
Black Tentacles (Conj)
Blast of Flame (Conj)
Dimension Door (Conj)
Orb of Acid (Conj)
Orb of Cold (Conj)
Orb of Electricity (Conj)
Orb of Fire (Conj)
Orb of Force (Conj)
Orb of Sound (Conj)
Solid Fog (Conj)
Summon Monster IV (Conj)
Translocation Trick (Conj)
Assay Spell Resistance (Div)
Detect Scrying (Div)
Locate Creature (Div)
Scrying (Div)
Treasure Scent (Div)
Attune Form (Trans)
Backlash (Trans)
Baleful Blink (Trans)
Celerity (Trans)
Heart of Earth (Trans)
Metal Melt (Trans)
Polymorph (Trans)
Repair Critical Damage (Trans)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (Trans)
Scramble Portal (Trans)
Spell Enhancer (Trans)
Stone Shape (Trans)
Trollshape (Trans)
Voice of the Dragon (Trans)
Mystic Surge (Univ)

Level 3 Spells (42)

Anticipate Teleportation (Abjur)
Avoid Planar Effects (Abjur)
Dispel Magic (Abjur)
Energy Vulnerability (Abjur)
Explosive Runes (Abjur)
Magic Circle against Chaos (Abjur)
Magic Circle against Evil (Abjur)
Magic Circle against Law (Abjur)
Nondetection (Abjur)
Protection from Energy (Abjur)
Reverse Arrows (Abjur)
Bands of Steel (Conj)
Contagious Fog (Conj)
Dimension Step (Conj)
Icelance (Conj)
Mage Armor, Greater (Conj)
Regroup (Conj)
Servant Horde (Conj)
Stinking Cloud (Conj)
Summon Monster III (Conj)
Analyze Portal (Div)
Arcane Sight (Div)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (Div)
Crown of Clarity (Div)
Enduring Scrutiny (Div)
Tongues (Div)
Unluck (Div)
Air Breathing (Trans)
Blink (Trans)
Crown of Protection (Trans)
Demon Dirge (Trans)
Devil Blight (Trans)
Dolorous Blow (Trans)
Dragonskin (Trans)
Flame Arrow (Trans)
Girallon’s Blessing (Trans)
Halt (Trans)
Hamatula Barbs (Trans)
Haste (Trans)
Heart of Water (Trans)
Keen Edge (Trans)
Magic Weapon, Greater (Trans)
Secret Page (Trans)
Shrink Item (Trans)
Slow (Trans)
Snake’s Swiftness, Mass (Trans)
Spell Vulnerability (Trans)
Tremorsense (Trans)
Water Breathing (Trans)
Weapon of Impact (Trans)

Level 2 Spells (51)

Alarm, Greater (Abjur)
Arcane Lock (Abjur)
Distracting Ray (Abjur)
Obscure Object (Abjur)
Portal Alarm (Abjur)
Protection from Arrows (Abjur)
Resist Energy (Abjur)
Scintillating Scales (Abjur)
Acid Arrow (Conj)
Baleful Transposition (Conj)
Create Magic Tattoo (Conj)
Fog Cloud (Conj)
Glitterdust (Conj)
Malevolent Miasma (Conj)
Summon Monster II (Conj)
Summon Swarm (Conj)
Web (Conj)
Allied Footsteps (Div)
Chain of Eyes (Div)
Detect Thoughts (Div)
Discern Shapechanger (Div)
Insight of Good Fortune (Div)
Locate Object (Div)
Marked Object (Div)
Master’s Touch (Div)
See Invisibility (Div)
Alter Self (Trans)
Bear’s Endurance (Trans)
Bristle (Trans)
Bull’s Strength (Trans)
Cat’s Grace (Trans)
Celerity, Lesser (Trans)
Darkvision (Trans)
Eagle’s Splendor (Trans)
Earthbind (Trans)
Fox’s Cunning (Trans)
Ghost Touch Armor (Trans)
Heart of Air (Trans)
Heroics (Trans)
Increase Virulence (Trans)
Infernal Wound (Trans)
Knock (Trans)
Levitate (Trans)
Owl’s Wisdom (Trans)
Pyrotechnics (Trans)
Quick Potion (Trans)
Repair Moderate Damage (Trans)
Rope Trick (Trans)
Scale Weakening (Trans)
Slide, Greater (Trans)
Snake’s Swiftness (Trans)
Sonic Weapon (Trans)
Speak to Allies (Trans)
Spider Climb (Trans)
Stretch Weapon (Trans)
Swim (Trans)
Whispering Wind (Trans)
Wraithstrike (Trans)

Level 1 Spells (67)

Alarm (Abjur)
Dispel Ward (Abjur)
Ectoplasmic Armor (Abjur)
Endure Elements (Abjur)
Hold Portal (Abjur)
Ironguts (Abjur)
Nightshield (Abjur)
Protection from Chaos (Abjur)
Protection from Evil (Abjur)
Protection from Good (Abjur)
Protection from Law (Abjur)
Resist Planar Alignment (Abjur)
Shield (Abjur)
Benign Transposition (Conj)
Blades of Fire (Conj)
Buzzing Bee (Conj)
Corrosive Grasp (Conj)
Deep Breath (Conj)
Grease (Conj)
Orb of Acid, Lesser (Conj)
Orb of Cold, Lesser (Conj)
Orb of Electricity, Lesser (Conj)
Orb of Fire, Lesser (Conj)
Orb of Sound, Lesser (Conj)
Mage Armor (Conj)
Mount (Conj)
Obscuring Mist (Conj)
Stand (Conj)
Summon Component (Conj)
Summon Monster I (Conj)
Unseen Servant (Conj)
Wall of Smoke (Conj)
Appraising Touch (Div)
Comprehend Languages (Div)
Critical Strike (Div)
Detect Secret Doors (Div)
Detect Undead (Div)
Guided Shot (Div)
Identify (Div)
Instant Locksmith (Div)
Instant Search (Div)
Master’s Touch (Div)
Sniper’s Shot (Div)
Spontaneous Search (Div)
Targeting Ray (Div)
True Casting (Div)
True Strike (Div)
Vigilant Slumber (Div)
Accelerated Movement (Trans)
Animate Rope (Trans)
Cheat (Trans)
Cutting Hand (Trans)
Ebon Eyes (Trans)
Enlarge Person (Trans)
Erase (Trans)
Expeditious Retreat (Trans)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift (Trans)
Feather Fall (Trans)
Fist of Stone (Trans)
Jump (Trans)
Low-Light Vision (Trans)
Mage Hand, Greater (Trans)
Nerveskitter (Trans)
Portal Beacon (Trans)
Ray of Clumsiness (Trans)
Reduce Person (Trans)
Remove Scent (Trans)
Shieldbearer (Trans)
Slide (Trans)
Weapon Shift (Trans)
Wings of the Sea (Trans)

Level 0 Spells (17)

Resistance (Abjur)
Acid Splash (Conj)
Caltrops (Conj)
Detect Poison (Div)
Detect Magic (Div)
Read Magic (Div)
Amanuensis (Trans)
Launch Bolt (Trans)
Launch Item (Trans)
Mage Hand (Trans)
Mending (Trans)
Message (Trans)
Open/Close (Trans)
Repair Minor Damage (Trans)
Stick (Trans)
Arcane Mark (Univ)
Prestidigitation (Univ)

Typical (Last) Spell Load-Out
Level 7
OPEN (Alacritous Cogitation)
Chained Empowered Silent Still Orb of Fire
Plane Shift
[Elemental Body] (Air)

Level 6
Chained Silent Still Orb of Fire
Freezing Fog
Maximized Silent Still Orb of Fire
[Resistance, Superior]
Flesh to Stone

Level 5
Arc of Lightning
Wall of Stone
Empowered Silent Still Orb of Fire
[Blink, Greater] (Persisted)
[Heart of Fire]
Fabricate

Level 4
Black Tentacles
Orb of Acid
Orb of Cold
[Detect Scrying]
Celerity
[Voice of the Dragon] (Persisted)
[Heart of Earth]
Spell Enhancer

Level 3
[Anticipate Teleportation]
Bands of Steel
[Mage Armor, Greater]
Icelance
[Heart of Water]
[Arcane Sight] (Persisted)
[Haste] (Multi-Persisted: 6)
[Tongues] (Persisted)

Level 2
Glitterdust
Glitterdust
Web
Rope Trick
[Eagle’s Splendor] (Persisted)
[Heart of Air]
[See Invisibility]
[Protection from Arrows]

Level 1
Stand
Grease
Orb of Sound, Lesser
[Shield] (Persisted)
Detect Secret Doors
Identify
True Strike
True Casting

Level 0
Acid Splash
Acid Splash
Caltrops
Detect Poison
Message
Arcane Mark
Prestidigitation

What I usually do is just buff myself and my teammates, persist what I can, and tag along. In combat so far, I've mostly been using my Incantatrix powers to add metamagics (such as maximize, empower, persist) to my teammates spells (such as holy fire or whatever it's called, or battlefield-control spells that they cast like wind wall). I usually hang back, and only ever went against a foe directly recently (see below).

The Dilemma

The DM does a lot of fiat. A lot of the others don't mind because they like just getting to play cool stuff and doing amazing things. "That's right, I turned into fire!" makes a lot of the enjoyment for most players, so they don't get too upset at or notice fiat so much. Our group is less of a regular D&D group, and more of a leaned-back casual group (though a few of us are more of traditional D&D to the heart). But still, there's that fiat.

Example 1

For example, back when I played a marshal (so nice when others can summon giant owls to ride, or go to the astral plane and back, or a bajillion other options), there was the bad guys had captured the damsel. Now I had some sort of ability or item (I forgot exactly) that allowed me to teleport out once, so all I needed to do really is get to her and touch her, and thus then teleport out.

Well, there was a guy in my way. So I decided to try using an overrun on him. DM said I can't, he's holding a sword right in front of me, and I can't go past him. I was too hell-bent on rescuing this damsel, even though I should have realized long ago that this was going to be a scripted encounter. So I said I run through the sword - that's right, I just allow it to pass through my organs, and try to run past at the damsel.

Well the DM adjudicated that it was an automatic hit, and started giving me extra damage each round for "bleeding". Needless to say, I got there too late, just as they started flying away. Anyways, long story short, a few other attempts completely failed, and the damsel at the end being just out of my reach before being teleported out, I was unsuccessful (obviously). Overrun, a few other class/magic abilities, and so on, were automatically deemed failures for me, without ever a roll, such that I could not rescue her.

Example 2

My Incantatrix had Blink, Greater persisted. This is extremely useful because I can switch between the material and ethereal planes at will, giving me excellent defensive options, and a lot of utility.

First of all, when I started doing recon ahead of the group so that I could let everybody know what's coming, I suddenly stopped being able to go through the walls (while in the ethereal plane). I could not penetrate anything - walls, ceiling, ground, etc. At least I still had my defensive aspects, right?

Second, when we engaged in some sort of combat situation, I started blinking in and out randomly, because I wasn't sure whether the attacker was ethereally or incorporeally slipping in and out of sight. It didn't matter, since he surprise attacked me before I could ever see him. He attacked me 5 times (unarmed strikes apparently), prompting me to hope that if not my AC, then my blink will lessen the blows. Upon reminding the DM that it's a 50% miss chance since I'm in and out of the material plane (and 20% if they can hit both planes), he said that it doesn't apply, and all the 5 attacks hit. 10 negative levels. His later explanation was that it was some psiony stuff.

Third, I still decided to keep going with my blink, probably because I liked the idea at least, even though it had been proven to me that utility and defense, and therefore the entire spell were worthless. Well, all of a sudden these flying roaches started attacking me, causing bad rifts in the material plane, and after a significant expenditure of resources, I got rid of them and came back to the material plane. No more blink ever for me I guess.

Example 3

This guy in a (guard) tower starts throwing damage spells at us. Even though he needed line of sight to attack me, and I was outfitted with tons of detection spells (arcane sight, see invisibility, etc.), I couldn't see where he was - and therefore could not mount any sort of offense. Well I let him do some talking at our team, and then he lobbed some more damage spells (this time fire, where I thankfully had resistance).

I then decided to fly into the tower. After eluding a trap with my abrupt jaunt, I cast a spell bands of steel at him, in order to restrain and question him. I was told that (despite him having taken his turn shooting at us already), he counterspelled me and my spell fizzled.

So then I used celerity and then cast another spell, and after elaborating that "now I know he can't counterspell this because he hasn't had his turn yet", I cast flesh to stone. Now apparently he was displaced, and I failed on the 50% miss chance. But even so, it turns out he had a magic item that functioned as spell turning. I failed the saving throw on my own flesh to stone spell and was turned to stone. Currently, the party is out looking for someone to turn me back.

Analysis

It's only been 2 sessions of the new campaign so far, but even after the first, I started to adapt and change my spell selection. I started focusing more on utility, personal buffs, and party buffs, so that I could get use out of my spells.

So I started buffing myself with things like Arcane Sight, Tongues, Hearts spells, minor buffs (such as Mage Armor and Shield), as well as buffing the party with useful spells. I started focusing less on things that could hurt an opponent too much (such as immobilizing or outright removing), and more on things that could be immediately useful given my conditions.

So something like Arcane Sight is good, because I will be able to see various auras and it feels useful and cool. But something like black tentacles or bands of steel would probably do too much harm to an opponent and probably would simply not work.

Conclusion

I need to find spells that are fun and useful without invoking any sort of DM fiat. Please recommend to me such spells, as I'm not that well-versed in all the spells there are.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-15, 10:20 AM
With a quick skim of your post, and I hate to say it, this guy sounds like a really, really bad DM. No offense intended, I know he's your friend.

Shadowleaf
2010-10-15, 10:25 AM
With a quick skim of your post, and I hate to say it, this guy sounds like a really, really bad DM. No offense intended, I know he's your friend.
He sounds worse than really, really bad. He should help balancing out, but you make it sound like he is simply sitting on his hands.

Tell him how you feel, and if he does nothing, hit him with the DMG and make him read it.

The Oakenshield
2010-10-15, 10:28 AM
I second the above posts.

It jut seems like he's incapacitating you...:smallannoyed:

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-15, 10:28 AM
but you make it sound like he is simply sitting on his hands.

Hrmm? :smallconfused:

Defiant
2010-10-15, 10:30 AM
I don't know, I've just come to accept the way things are. Everyone (that's paying attention) usually has fun, so it's fine.

I'm fairly non-confrontational when it comes to stuff like this, and I really don't want/need to talk to him about this stuff. I think myself as more of a passive, casual gamer, in the campaign, though that might just be the massive-group-size-effect talking.

I mean, I'm happy to be able to do things as it is, so I'll be fine. I just want to know other useful spells that I can use without invoking a does-not-work.

Psyx
2010-10-15, 10:31 AM
If your GM is pretty free-wheeling and runs with ideas, I'd recommend illusion spells. Fun for both of you.


Wall spells might be good, if not using a battlegrid. Walls are better in people's minds than on paper.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-15, 10:32 AM
I would really try to have a talk with the guy, if he's your friend he should listen. Initiative bonuses exist for a reason, and small dry erase boards are cheap.

It really just sounds like he doesn't want you to be able to do...well...anything at all. He has a picture in his mind about how things will play out, and anything that might cause that to change is disallowed. This is, for lack of a better word, horrible DM'ing. Why should you even take any actions at all if nothing you do affects anything? I'd be tempted to just weave baskets all day.

This isn't about spell selection, because you aren't picking spells that are OMGBROKENBBQ. It's that he doesn't understand what his role is, and he is too lazy to figure it out.

Defiant
2010-10-15, 10:33 AM
If your GM is pretty free-wheeling and runs with ideas, I'd recommend illusion spells. Fun for both of you.

Bit of a problem seeing as I banned illusion :smallbiggrin:


Wall spells might be good, if not using a battlegrid. Walls are better in people's minds than on paper.

Perhaps. Though I'm a bit skeptical, since last time I tried to use a wall of stone to trap a mischievous creature flying around who threw a fireball at us, it simply failed, no roll (i.e. to save against being trapped or something).

true_shinken
2010-10-15, 10:35 AM
Guys, the OP said clearly he likes the way the game flows now. He wants to game with his DM. Tellimg him how you much you think his DM sucks is in no way helpful.

OP, you seem to have a very nice spell list already. It does not seem like you need any help with it.

Defiant
2010-10-15, 10:37 AM
I would really try to have a talk with the guy, if he's your friend he should listen. Initiative bonuses exist for a reason, and small dry erase boards are cheap.

Well I feel that we do this to make matters more expedient given the size of our group. The way we do things is rather haphazard, instead of structured.


It really just sounds like he doesn't want you to be able to do...well...anything at all. He has a picture in his mind about how things will play out, and anything that might cause that to change is disallowed. This is, for lack of a better word, horrible DM'ing. Why should you even take any actions at all if nothing you do affects anything? I'd be tempted to just weave baskets all day.

Well, to be fair, he did work quite a bit on his story. He even had his friend
that helped him make up what's going to happen come by and spectate a bit. He's already got it figured out, so I don't want to ruin that.


This isn't about spell selection, because you aren't picking spells that are OMGBROKENBBQ. It's that he doesn't understand what his role is, and he is too lazy to figure it out.

Again, this is my circle of friends, and he's one of my best friends. They seem to have fun with it, and I have fun with it when there are things that I can do. I'd rather just stay in the background, more passively, than try to confront or change anything.

Defiant
2010-10-15, 10:40 AM
Guys, the OP said clearly he likes the way the game flows now. He wants to game with his DM.

Well, I prefer a structured and a bit more to-the-book type of D&D playing, which is why I DMed last year (seeing as we're the only two DMs so far). But I really like coming to this group for the social aspect.


OP, you seem to have a very nice spell list already. It does not seem like you need any help with it.

Sweet :smallsmile:

I did look through a lot of utility- and buff-based spells that would be useful given my circumstances, but I'm wondering if I missed a gem anywhere.

Greenish
2010-10-15, 10:41 AM
Well, to be fair, he did work quite a bit on his story. He even had his friend
that helped him make up what's going to happen come by and spectate a bit. He's already got it figured out, so I don't want to ruin that.Well, the story's already there, you're not going to alter it, so don't worry about spell selection and just ad lib some mumbo jumbo when there's a non-cutscene fight. :smalltongue:

Defiant
2010-10-15, 10:43 AM
OK, to make it clear to everyone just why I don't want to confront or change anything.

I don't come to the D&D game to play D&D.

I come to hang out with friends. Yes, D&D is what we're doing, but I come mainly to be with friends, D&D secondary.

So you can understand why instead of trying to change the way it works or something, I'd rather just find out what I can do in the game, and just go with it.



So if I were to join a campaign that might be starting up (one of my friends is working on something right now), that were more structured, D&D-like, normal size, then I would go for D&D. And I would likely try to fix any really bad issues.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-15, 10:48 AM
Load up on a lot of buffs, Enlarge Person, Haste, etc. Chain them if they are single target. Keep only a few little blasty spells in reserve, and just hang out in the back and let everybody else do the dirty work. Since it seems you're thwarted every time you try to proactively handle a situation, I think it'd be best to just make everyone else stronger. That way you don't have to focus on finding spells that won't be thwarted, you can just hang out with your friends and shoot stuff with a wand, or crossbow, or something. At least you'll know the reason they are so successful is that you've made them that way.

Flickerdart
2010-10-15, 10:50 AM
You should probably stick with Orbs: damage is damage, and you might even get a secondary effect if the foe fails his save. Avoid Save or Lose spells, but Save or Suck shouldn't be too bad. I have a feeling that personal buffs won't help you too much (if you need to be trapped, freedom of movement won't save you) but numerical bonuses such as Greater Magic Weapon are always nice.

Gan The Grey
2010-10-15, 10:56 AM
OK, to make it clear to everyone just why I don't want to confront or change anything.

I don't come to the D&D game to play D&D.

I come to hang out with friends. Yes, D&D is what we're doing, but I come mainly to be with friends, D&D secondary.

So you can understand why instead of trying to change the way it works or something, I'd rather just find out what I can do in the game, and just go with it.



So if I were to join a campaign that might be starting up (one of my friends is working on something right now), that were more structured, D&D-like, normal size, then I would go for D&D. And I would likely try to fix any really bad issues.

Your spell list doesn't matter. As you already said, there isn't anything that he can't fiat away. Play your character however you want to play him, and expect nothing. Cuz it sounds like nothing is about what you are going to get.

Or just make a fighter. Much harder to turn your powers against yourself when all you have is a sword. A fighter can't turn himself to stone.

Marnath
2010-10-15, 10:58 AM
We can't really suggest any spells that will work better, since nothing stops him from just giving you a failure again. My advice would be to start using your spells in ways they weren't really designed to work. If no one else is following the rules why should you?

Psyx
2010-10-15, 12:42 PM
I would really try to have a talk with the guy, if he's your friend he should listen. Initiative bonuses exist for a reason, and small dry erase boards are cheap.

As an alternative, ask the GM for everyone to be assumed to be 'taking 10' on initiative, so everyone has a 'fixed' value of 10+Dex+blag. Then seat everyone around the table in that order. No more rolls needed, but initiative still counts, and you can still go around the table in order.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 12:46 PM
With a quick skim of your post, and I hate to say it, this guy sounds like a really, really bad DM. No offense intended, I know he's your friend.

This.

I've been in similar situations, and gotten to the point where I start surfing the web on my phone, or bsing with people or whatever. When the DM asks me what I do, I say "I cast a spell". If he asks which one, I answer "Why, will it work?".

There is absolutely no spell based way to overcome ridiculous amounts of fiat. If he's willing to entirely ignore what spells do, then all spells are functionally equal. Your options are basically as follows:

1. Treat the game as unimportant, if your friends are important, and the game really is not. Hang out first, play second.

2. Find a different DM.

3. Talk to him, and tell him you want to play D&D, not "DM's invented freeform fiat".

4. Turn the whole thing into a joke. Use different spells every time. Find more and more reasonable ways to do things he does not want you to do. Wait for your friends to get puzzled over hearing the word "no" so many times. Play dumb, ask innocent questions like "If I can't use stone shape to shape stone, what can I use it for?". I don't reccomend this way unless you've already tried talking, but it can be a hoot.

Psyx
2010-10-15, 12:49 PM
Bit of a problem seeing as I banned illusion :smallbiggrin:



Doh!

In that case I'd go for a lot of party buffs, because those can't fail. Start at 'haste' every fight, and go from there! Stoneskin etc may well be your staples.

Avoid SoDs, because important monsters will 'make' their saves 99% of the time. Go for offensive stuff that has no save, makes (ranged) touch attacks, or -at worst- saves for half.

Load up on spells that can be slightly exploited with a GM who likes story over rules. Illusions are the best example, but there are other things like that out there.

I take it that nothing works against stuff he decides not to have it work against? So dispel magic is probably a bit moot.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 12:52 PM
In that case I'd go for a lot of party buffs, because those can't fail. Start at 'haste' every fight, and go from there! Stoneskin etc may well be your staples.

Oh yeah, this is a great choice.

At a minimum, if he fiats buffs away, it tends to get other players on your side, as they generally like to use said buffs. Flight is an excellent one too, as is invisibility. Your teammates generally love being flying, invisible death machines.

Kylarra
2010-10-15, 12:54 PM
Ultimately you should really just stop trying to be clever and focus probably on Straight-forward buffs (ie number++, resistances), AoE and damage-type spells. Those he is less likely to fiat, though still subject to cutscenes.

kestrel404
2010-10-15, 12:59 PM
This.

I've been in similar situations, and gotten to the point where I start surfing the web on my phone, or bsing with people or whatever. When the DM asks me what I do, I say "I cast a spell". If he asks which one, I answer "Why, will it work?".

There is absolutely no spell based way to overcome ridiculous amounts of fiat. If he's willing to entirely ignore what spells do, then all spells are functionally equal. Your options are basically as follows:

1. Treat the game as unimportant, if your friends are important, and the game really is not. Hang out first, play second.

2. Find a different DM.

3. Talk to him, and tell him you want to play D&D, not "DM's invented freeform fiat".

4. Turn the whole thing into a joke. Use different spells every time. Find more and more reasonable ways to do things he does not want you to do. Wait for your friends to get puzzled over hearing the word "no" so many times. Play dumb, ask innocent questions like "If I can't use stone shape to shape stone, what can I use it for?". I don't reccomend this way unless you've already tried talking, but it can be a hoot.

Yeah, this.

Sorry, but if you're unwilling to speak up for yourself on this one, I don't think there's anything we can do. Barring turning yourself into a blaster mage (which, if you blast the GM's primary NPCs who he thinks are too important to die, it probably still won't work), there's not much you can do to change your situation.

Fouredged Sword
2010-10-15, 01:09 PM
with that big of a group dip warweaver and persist a ton of group buffs. All buffs now effect the whole party.

Murphy80
2010-10-15, 01:24 PM
As others have said, since he will fiat anything that doesn't fit the story, group buffs are the way to go. I would also suggest going the "comic relief" angle. Take nothing seriously and just do what's funny, though not in a campaign wrecking way (since you WANT to keep playing with them).

Tvtyrant
2010-10-15, 01:27 PM
Switch to a warlock. It sounds like your DM doesn't believe in magic, so just fly around glassing things. You could also buff people like crazy, but I sense disjunction will be used in your future, so stay away from using magic items.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-15, 01:28 PM
As others have said, your spell list is fine, as he can and will fiat away anything you do that disrupts his railroad.

And no, 'working hard' on a plot is not an excuse to make the PCs' abilities not matter at all.

Alternatively, load out on buffs, so when he fiats them away the other players get annoyed at him too. If everyone's annoyed by it, maybe he'll stop doing it.

Chambers
2010-10-15, 01:38 PM
Your DM has shown that he can and will fiat away anything that disturbs his plot. I mean this in a constructive manner, but there is nothing we can suggest that will do what you want. He is blatantly changing the way the rules work to suit him on the fly, and I salute you for still enjoying the game and being friends, but the problem is not your spell selection or character abilities. The problem is the DM.

So if you want abilities that the DM cannot fiat, you need a new DM. That's pretty much it.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-15, 01:45 PM
This guy sounds like he'd throw fire-resistance or even fire-invulnerability on one of his plot-important NPCs if you blasted one of them for too much damage. Due to this, Searing Spell is a must. If you take that, the only things that he can do to fiat the damage away are ex-post Ray Deflection, improbably-high touch AC, and inflating HP. Or one of the incredibly lame ways he's "counterspelled" you before.

Oh, and I don't think chain spell works like that for orbs, but considering you're not really playing D&D, go for it.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-15, 01:46 PM
This guy sounds like he'd throw fire-resistance or even fire-invulnerability on one of his plot-important NPCs if you blasted one of them for too much damage. Due to this, Searing Spell is a must.

Haha, like he wouldn't fiat away feats, too.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-15, 01:53 PM
Haha, like he wouldn't fiat away feats, too.It seems like the DM is trying to have roundabout justifications for his fiat (I'm not saying they're good). He wouldn't ignore the feat, at least if it was mentioned; he'd probably do something like the FtS example, but at some point he has to run out of ideas or start repeating himself. If "this guy has [ridiculous ability] too," it starts becoming a comedy campaign, which can be fun.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-15, 01:56 PM
He could say "this creature is immune to Searing Spells due to being jsut so damn hot".

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 01:57 PM
Note that roleplaying this out is also hilarious.

What? He's immune to my fire? Nobody is immune to my fire. I can burn fire elementals to death with MORE FIRE.

Everybody run away!

I suggest playing Benny Hill chase music while describing how your party runs away.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-15, 01:58 PM
And how is that not hilarious? If it's so damn hot, he should play Loony style and start hitting on it.

Kylarra
2010-10-15, 02:09 PM
Note that roleplaying this out is also hilarious.

What? He's immune to my fire? Nobody is immune to my fire. I can burn fire elementals to death with MORE FIRE.

Everybody run away!

I suggest playing Benny Hill chase music while describing how your party runs away.I agree with my evil twin.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 02:18 PM
And how is that not hilarious? If it's so damn hot, he should play Loony style and start hitting on it.

Alternatively, there's actually a song titled "So Damn Hot". Slightly different mood, there, but the sheer unexpectedness would probably also be hilarious.

I should modify my avatar to have a goatee.