How to make a Gish?

[Kaeso]

I've seen alot of wizard and sorcerer handbooks on "teh intarwebs", but they mostly look down on gishes as "the inferior kind of sorcerer/wizard". I, however, have an interest in these wizards despite their inferiority to the god/batman wizard. Could anybody recommend me either a good guide or a good build?

EDIT: Of course a gish that loses the least ammount of spell progression as possible is better :)

EDIT2: I'd prefer a gish built around a sorcerer.

[Beelzebub1111]

I did okay with:
Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Knight Phantom 10/Swiftblade 3
BAB +17 CL17
Some neat abilities, 9th level spells Not bad IMHO

[Kaeso]

I did okay with:
Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Knight Phantom 10/Swiftblade 3
BAB +17 CL17
Some neat abilities, 9th level spells Not bad IMHO

What book is the Knight Phantom from?

[Eldariel]

I've seen alot of wizard and sorcerer handbooks on "teh intarwebs", but they mostly look down on gishes as "the inferior kind of sorcerer/wizard". I, however, have an interest in these wizards despite their inferiority to the god/batman wizard. Could anybody recommend me either a good guide or a good build?

EDIT: Of course a gish that loses the least ammount of spell progression as possible is better :)

What manner of Gish interests you? There's, off the top of my head:

Wizard 6/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/Abjurant Champion 5

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

Wizard (or Sorcerer) 6/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5

Crusader (or Warblade) 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5


That's for base Wizard/Sorcerer Gishes. Note that Eldritch Knight requires proficiency in all martial weapons so you need Militia [PGtF], Otherworldly [PGtF] or an Outsider race (Neraphim [PlH] for example, or Tiefling from Core with LA buyoff) for that build. Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion needs one Martial Weapon Proficiency, so either Elf or a feat to pick one up. And all instances of Eldritch Knight could instead be Knight Phantom [5N] but given Knight Phantom is IMHO inferior and from an obscure source, I used Eldritch Knight instead.

Jade Phoenix Mage is a Gish Who Knows Maneuvers (though a rather bad option compared to the divine Ruby Knight Vindicator), Swiftblade is a Haste Specialist Gish (who is quite capable of kicking Frenzied Berserker Butt in an Anti-Magic Field on high levels, given decent HP total), Sorcadin is a Sorcerer with a divine hint to his power, and the Eldritch Knight is just a vanilla Guy With Sword & Spells.

EDIT: Oh right, sources:
Jade Phoenix Mage + Crusader + Warblade - Tome of Battle
Abjurant Champion - Complete Mage
Spellsword - Complete Warrior
Militia + Otherworldly - Player's Guide to Faerun
Knight Phantom - Five Nations
Neraphim - Planar Handbook
Swiftblade - Online

[LordBlades]

Eldariel pretty much covered the basic gish idea.

What I'd like to add is that taking a spellsword level is worth it if you can meet the prerequisites. It gives you caster level advancement, +2 fort and will, and 10% ASF reduction.

The prerequistes however might be somewhat tricky, especially the heavy armor prof. unless you start with a fighter or paladin level.

[Kobold-Bard]

Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) is available online. It's Eldritch Knight with class features.

Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/ Knight Phantom 7.
BAB: +17
CL: 18 - 9th Level spells.
-10% ASF
Assorted goodies.

My personal favourite, though I like Krimm Blackleaf's Martial Eldritch Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57794).

[ErrantX]

There is a metric ton of good homebrew on the Homebrew side for gish classes. I've run a contest specifically to make gish classes, not to mention gishes written by dozen highly skilled homebrewers. Check out people's homebrew sigs, you might find something there you'd like.

-X

[Saph]

Crusader (or Warblade) 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5

The last one won't quite work: JPM requires 9 ranks in Concentration. I usually find Warblade 1/ Wizard 2/ Warblade 1/ Wizard 2 works best as an entry to JPM; I've used it in the past with a fair bit of success.

[Eldariel]

The last one won't quite work: JPM requires 9 ranks in Concentration. I usually find Warblade 1/ Wizard 2/ Warblade 1/ Wizard 2 works best as an entry to JPM; I've used it in the past with a fair bit of success.

Oh, right, I forgot all about the entry being latter too. I was thinking of RKV, which can be entered on 6, but JPM mucked that up too. :smallfrown: Seriously, what's up with that? RKV has 4 schools 3 of which are awesome, to JPM's two schools one of which has a huge overlap with arcane casting (and arcane casting is better at it, big surprise), 2+Int skills to RKV's 4+Int from a decent list & less powerful class features (though Emerald Immolation is cool)... Bleh.

[Godskook]

Oh, right, I forgot all about the entry being latter too. I was thinking of RKV, which can be entered on 6, but JPM mucked that up too. :smallfrown: Seriously, what's up with that? RKV has 4 schools 3 of which are awesome, to JPM's two schools one of which has a huge overlap with arcane casting (and arcane casting is better at it, big surprise), 2+Int skills to RKV's 4+Int from a decent list & less powerful class features (though Emerald Immolation is cool)... Bleh.

Well, I've been convinced that the windicator was not properly playtested for quite a while. Let's just add this to the list, now, shall we?

[Eldariel]

Well, I've been convinced that the windicator was not properly playtested for quite a while. Let's just add this to the list, now, shall we?

I'm of the opinion that JPM should be more stuff rather RKV than less; limiting Divine Impetus to one use per turn makes it fine, and still leaves RKV far beyond JPM. Mostly, my issue is that it's so boring to have such a limited school availability. I can't see it hurting much to throw e.g. Iron Heart, Shadow Hand or Stone Dragon in for JPM along with 4+Int skills and that would instantly make it more interesting.

Not to mention, pushing the entry back by one level removes the elegant builds like the 5 Base/10 JPM/5 Abjurant champion that finishes two PrCs and works fine. Bleh...

[true_shinken]

There is a metric ton of good homebrew on the Homebrew side for gish classes. I've run a contest specifically to make gish classes, not to mention gishes written by dozen highly skilled homebrewers. Check out people's homebrew sigs, you might find something there you'd like.

-X

That's the kind of homebrew I find mostly unnecessary. There are tons of gish material out there, both generic and specific. Why mess with thr rules when they already work?
I find that homebrewed casses in the manner of the Swiftblade or Knight Phantom (i.e., gishing while you focus on something else, like Haste or being a ghost) might work, but that's a really narrow concept.

[Eldariel]

That's the kind of homebrew I find mostly unnecessary. There are tons of gish material out there, both generic and specific. Why mess with thr rules when they already work?
I find that homebrewed casses in the manner of the Swiftblade or Knight Phantom (i.e., gishing while you focus on something else, like Haste or being a ghost) might work, but that's a really narrow concept.

One thing I'd love to see is a proper Homebrew Master of the Unseen Hand that actually doesn't suck. The concept is awesome.

[ErrantX]

That's the kind of homebrew I find mostly unnecessary. There are tons of gish material out there, both generic and specific. Why mess with thr rules when they already work?
I find that homebrewed casses in the manner of the Swiftblade or Knight Phantom (i.e., gishing while you focus on something else, like Haste or being a ghost) might work, but that's a really narrow concept.

Well, yeah, that's generally what the concepts of the good gish class homebrews are. Djinn_In_Tonic, for example, made an awesome sorcerer gish that focused on fey magics and a mount. I actually dislike Eldritch Knight because it's simply boring. But again, to each their own. I've seen just as much homebrew that I liked as I didn't like.

-X

[Aron Times]

Duskblade 20
Battle Sorcerer 20

Simplicity is beauty.

[Kobold-Bard]

Duskblade 20
Battle Sorcerer 20

Simplicity is beauty.

At low levels yes, but at high level they pale in comparison.

[Saph]

I'm of the opinion that JPM should be more stuff rather RKV than less; limiting Divine Impetus to one use per turn makes it fine, and still leaves RKV far beyond JPM. Mostly, my issue is that it's so boring to have such a limited school availability. I can't see it hurting much to throw e.g. Iron Heart, Shadow Hand or Stone Dragon in for JPM along with 4+Int skills and that would instantly make it more interesting.

Well, if it's any consolation, with the Jade Phoenix Mages I've played I've found that if you want to take the good Devoted Spirit maneuvers you don't have any spare slots for other schools anyway. Though I agree a bit more variety would be nice - I always just end up taking Foehammer/Divine Surge.

Assuming you're going into JPM with Wizard casting, though, you'll probably still have more skill points than a RKV (since Int is a Wizard's primary stat and usually one of the dump stats for Clerics).

[KellKheraptis]

How about a Divine Power Gish? Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion 5 with the feat Arcane Disciple (Hero domain). Or if you don't want to be tied down to just one domain, Planar Touchstone (Catalogs of Enlightenment - Hero Domain) when you want to gish, and then swap it out for something nicer (like maybe Luck Domain or Breaching Obelisk) the rest of the time playing GOD.

[Eldariel]

How about a Divine Power Gish? Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion 5 with the feat Arcane Disciple (Hero domain). Or if you don't want to be tied down to just one domain, Planar Touchstone (Catalogs of Enlightenment - Hero Domain) when you want to gish, and then swap it out for something nicer (like maybe Luck Domain or Breaching Obelisk) the rest of the time playing GOD.

Is Abjurant Champion really worth taking if going that route? You could just cram some Dweomerkeeper/Shadowcraft Mage-type classes there to improve your buff reliability and versatility. 'cause Abjurant Champion is cute but its big selling point is full BAB; the rest is more or less "cute but unnecessary". Like, Abjurant Armor is useful but Arcane Strike has the level 4 ability by the nuts, Martial Arcanist does nothing, the swift cast is way too low a level limit to truly shine, etc. So while they're nice, if we don't need the BAB I think we'd want to use some class with more useful abilities.

[BeholderSlayer]

I just made one. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9593.0)

I like how it's turned out.

I'm probably going to alter it a bit, snag some maneuvers and stances by casting Heroics (SpC).

[Andion Isurand]

The Minor Shapeshift reserve feat could be a good choice for a gish when using the vigor option to create/refresh a temporary HP buffer.

I would also recommend Martial Study [desert wind manuver] feat to gain Tumble as a class skill at all times should it be lacking in your classes. Good for the fighter feat variant wizard.

See also... Skilled City-Dweller ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to try and obtain Tumble at the expense of Ride.

[true_shinken]

Good advice

Very, very handy advice.
This reminds me, I should update the Suel Arcanamach Handbook...

[Gerbah]

Well, this may or may not even be helpful, but I'll share the one I made.

Though I went Wizard, it's not necessary: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 10

Here's to clarify something, I used the Pathfinder version of the Eldritch Knight, so that's probably an issue, though it's incredibly better than 3.5's. The character focused on using a Two-Bladed Sword, so I could both use two-weapon fighting and cast spells requiring a free hand. He was fun to play, since if someone got close up I could meat-grinder them with a nasty weapon, and if they were far away I could volley some spells. A nice thing about the PF Eldritch Knight is at level 10 you essentially get a free quicken spell when you get a critical. The build was somewhat feat intensive, to say the least, but it worked pretty darn well.

Aside from that, Blended Quartz, I think, is a material you can make armor out of to reduce the arcane spell failure by 20% or so. Pretty handy.

[Dark_Nohn]

A good question to ask before "How should I gish?" is "Should I gish?" If your party is 2 or less, then the answer is YES (and your DM should have you rolling gestalts anyways.) If your party is 3 or more, the next question will be "How much should I gish?" If your companions are on the high end of the power spectrum, then should you should give it a go, but if they aren't, then why would you want to play a wizard (a tier 1 class) or sorcerer (tier 2 class) with a full attack bonus to boot? Instead, go for half-caster classes like perhaps a hexblade, and those designed to be a low power class like duskblade (in comparison to the perfect PrC combination gish.) If you don't need full progression attack, and want some skillmonkey abilities as well as sneak attack, spellthief is the class for you. Rage mage is laughably weak, poor spell progression, 3/4 BaB, but the +4 to the DC of your spells means that you can make things explode well, especially with spell focus and greater spell focus for a total of +6 to a spell's DC.

Another good question to ask yourself is, "Does it have to be arcane, or can it be divine or psionic?" There are many great gishing classes for divine (Divine Crusader, Pious Templar,) and a few for psionic (psychic warrior, warmind,) and all tend to put you on par with the rest of the party without pushing yourself far beyond their power.

Or, you could wait until 12th level (11th for wizard) and make Bracers of Transforming (for a price of 90600 in reagents, slightly above your entire character wealth by level, and 3624 exp) which, on command word, does as the spell Tenser's Transformation.

[herrhauptmann]

I just made one. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9593.0)

I like how it's turned out.


I looked at your gish there, and while I didn't read the entire thread, I have a quick question. How did you get into swiftblade with sorc 4 and barb 1? You need access to haste, which for a sorc doesn't happen until level 6, so level 7 is the first level you could take swiftblade.

To the OP, I also made a gish, built off of an unmounted charger base (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169009).
Mine's lower powered/less optimized than the others listed, but I had a slightly restricted booklist by the DM.
But I have made what I feel is a decent background story for my character. Throughout, he advances at about the rate of 1 level per year, continued until level 14 or so.
While in a game, a human might hit level 15 by age 22, I feel that trying to put all that into a background story makes it feel cluttered, unless your story is about 10 typed pages (single spaced).
Ftr6/Wiz1/AbjChamp5/EK8
Bab 19, CL 19 (21 for abjuration), Fort: 12 Ref: 5 Will: 10 and spells per day as a 13th level abjurer. Calculated assuming no fractional bab and saves.
-There's probably other, easy entry Gish PrC's for me, but I can't think of any besides Knight Phantom, which requires an extra feat.
-Losing my familiar via immediate magic ACF might suck, but weakening the spells coming at me should help make up for the sucky reflex save I'll have.
-Getting the smoking weapon for miss chances, even with the high AC I'll get from Luminous armor + shield, I'm still going to get hit a lot due to shocktrooper.
Rolled stats btw. Though I might well switch stats around a little for more skill points, also change which stats I increase at which level.
Str 1718
Dex-12
Con-15
Int-14 15 16 17 18
Wis-11
Cha-10
Feats:
1) Power attack
H1)Cleave
F1)Imp Bullrush
F2)Imp Sunder
3) Collegiate wizard (learns 4 spells per level, rather than 2)
F4) Leap attack
6) Combat casting
F6)Shocktrooper
9)Combat Brute
12)Magic disruption (CM)
EK1) Blank
15) Blank
18) Mystic backlash (CM)
-It would be nice if Abj Champ's extended and swift abjuration class abilities let me qualify for feats as if I had the extend or quicken metamagic feats. Even if I could only use those other metamagics on my abjuration spells.
Partial Spell list:
All 0th,
9 1st: Shield, Detect Magic, Read magic, Nerveskitter, fist of stone
8 2nd: Wraithstrike, rope trick, silver dragonmail (CoV)
8 3rd: Dispel magic, Suggestion, Haste, Invisibility, Fly, Greater mighty wallop (ROD, if I use a bludgeoning weap), Golden dragonmail (CoV)
8 4th: Luminous armor, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Firestride Exhalation (DM),
8 5th: Acid Sheath, baleful polymorph, teleport
8 6th: Contingency, Greater Dispel, Disintegrate
8 7th:Energy Absorption, Force Cage, Limited Wish, Prismatic Spray, Reverse Gravity

items:+X Valorous Smoking Greatsword (+2 cost) +3k for adamantine, +5k for starmetal, +9K for gold/platinum (which will require another +1 of magic enhancements, or a feat)
Belt of giant strength, combined with belt of battle
Backup slashing weapon
Backup ranged weapon
+1 Light Armor (not for the AC, but as something to hold extra enchantments). Soulfire, Agility, durable, retaliation, healing (greater)
Headband of intellect
Tunic of steady spellcasting
Custom boots of haste. As the spell, 5 rounds per use, infinite use. Approx 27k
Amulet of natural armor +1
Hewards haversack
Cloak of resistance

[Eldariel]

I looked at your gish there, and while I didn't read the entire thread, I have a quick question. How did you get into swiftblade with sorc 4 and barb 1? You need access to haste, which for a sorc doesn't happen until level 6, so level 7 is the first level you could take swiftblade.

Loredrake.

[herrhauptmann]

What's loredrake do again? Eberron creature, right?

[true_shinken]

Loredrake.

...which is very, very questionable even by RAW and totally by RAI.

[Eldariel]

What's loredrake do again? Eberron creature, right?

Sovereign Archetype for Dragons. Certain reading of Dragonwrought counts you as True Dragon so you can get it. +2 Sorcerer casting. Yay.


...which is very, very questionable even by RAW and totally by RAI.

Gee, ya think? I was just telling what was going on with the build when somebody asked.

[herrhauptmann]

Sovereign Archetype for Dragons. Certain reading of Dragonwrought counts you as True Dragon so you can get it. +2 Sorcerer casting. Yay.


For some reason, I thought that +2 sorc casting was just to give you a higher CL, not to grant higher level spells.

[gorfnab]

I'm a big fan of Bard based gishes.
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 7/ Paladin 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 7/ Fighter, Barbarian, or Paladin 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 7/ Paladin, Barbarian, or Fighter 1/ Knight Phantom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Knight Phantom 8

[BeholderSlayer]

...which is very, very questionable even by RAW and totally by RAI.
Howso?

For some reason, I thought that +2 sorc casting was just to give you a higher CL, not to grant higher level spells.

Nope, it grants you higher level spells. So does having White Dragonspawn and yet again when completing the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

[true_shinken]

Howso?

Sovereign archetypes are meant for true dragons. Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons except for a a ver specific reading of the rules ('true dragons are dragons that get stronger as they age, and dragonwrought kobolds take no aging penalties, so they are true dragons'); if that ain't stretching, I don't know what it is.
Even if dragonwrought kobolds were, in fact, true dragons (which they aren't) they would not qualify for sovereign archetypes, as there is another requisite for taking them. This requirement is the racial ability to add cleric domain spells to your sorcerer spell list - an ability that the would-be sovereign gives up (the book then goes on to say a DM might allow it otherwise, but a DM cna allow anything otherwise, so that is pointless). Loredrake is the worst of them - is specifically mentions racional hit dice in it's description and dragonwrought kobolds don't have any.
So, yeah, questionable is an understatement. It's outright illegal.



Gee, ya think? I was just telling what was going on with the build when somebody asked.
I was just trying to make sure no one was seeing it as gish-building advice, sorry.

[BeholderSlayer]

Sovereign archetypes are meant for true dragons.
There isn't any actual support for this claim in the Sovereign Archetype text. It's just not there, at all. The only mention of TRUE dragons in the entire text is a simple statement that "all true dragons have the potential to use arcane magic." By strict reading of the text of Sovereign Archetype, any dragon may choose one.

Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons except for a a ver specific reading of the rules ('true dragons are dragons that get stronger as they age, and dragonwrought kobolds take no aging penalties, so they are true dragons'); if that ain't stretching, I don't know what it is.
That is the only reliable definition of a true dragon. I don't see how using the only reliable definition in print is considered "stretching." DWK gain in their mental stats as they age and suffer no penalties.

The more sources that you read, however, you see many statements that True Dragons only being dragons with 12 age categories, which DWK explicitly have.


Even if dragonwrought kobolds were, in fact, true dragons (which they aren't) they would not qualify for sovereign archetypes, as there is another requisite for taking them. This requirement is the racial ability to add cleric domain spells to your sorcerer spell list - an ability that the would-be sovereign gives up (the book then goes on to say a DM might allow it otherwise, but a DM cna allow anything otherwise, so that is pointless).
Full stop. This is false. The text states that those dragons unable to cast cleric spells lose NOTHING when the archetype is applied. It says nothing about DM adjudication of whether they can take an archetype. Instead it states that a DM must decide if those not listed with clerical domains should be assigned domains en lieu of using an archetype.


Loredrake is the worst of them - is specifically mentions racional hit dice in it's description and dragonwrought kobolds don't have any.
So, yeah, questionable is an understatement. It's outright illegal.
*snip*
It doesn't say having racial hit dice are a requirement for the archetype. Kobolds advance by character level, so any reference to racial hit dice don't apply to them. The same text would not apply to a non-DWK true dragon that chose to take a sorcerer level rather than a dragon level.

You are inserting conditions and requirements where there aren't any.

[Petrocorus]

Oh, right, I forgot all about the entry being latter too. I was thinking of RKV, which can be entered on 6, but JPM mucked that up too. :smallfrown: Seriously, what's up with that? RKV has 4 schools 3 of which are awesome, to JPM's two schools one of which has a huge overlap with arcane casting (and arcane casting is better at it, big surprise), 2+Int skills to RKV's 4+Int from a decent list & less powerful class features (though Emerald Immolation is cool)... Bleh.

What bite me even more, is that the two said schools are one specific to Crusader and one specific to Swordsage. So, no synergy with Warblade. But if you're a Wizard, you have certainly more synergy with Warblade than with Swordsage or Crusader.


To go back on topic:
Here a Bardadin i made:
Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4
BAB +16 CL 18 Fort +9 Ref +10 Will +20 Skill point 102
Need Extra Music to qualify for Lyric Thaumaturge.
And you can use Savage Bard instead of Bard

[true_shinken]

There isn't any actual support for this claim in the Sovereign Archetype text. It's just not there, at all. The only mention of TRUE dragons in the entire text is a simple statement that "all true dragons have the potential to use arcane magic." By strict reading of the text of Sovereign Archetype, any dragon may choose one.
By this reasoning, you don't even need the dragon type. If your nickname is 'dragon', then you could take an archetype.
Now, the Sovereign archetypes are related to the true dragon's religion. The text mentions them specifically. It mentions no other kinds of dragons at all.
So yes, it is a stretch to say 'any dragon can take it' when the intent is so obvious. Heck, if you know even a little bit about Eberron fluff, there is no need for details.


That is the only reliable definition of a true dragon. I don't see how using the only reliable definition in print is considered "stretching." DWK gain in their mental stats as they age and suffer no penalties.
...if you really think +3 to all mental stats amounts to the same kind of 'increase in power' as extra hit dice, extra skill points, increases to all stats (even Dexterity, since it remains 10 no matter the size), extra racial abilities and sorcerer casting, I believe we have no reason to discuss anything. Ever.


The more sources that you read, however, you see many statements that True Dragons only being dragons with 12 age categories, which DWK explicitly have.
12? I only know of 4. Enlighten me.



Full stop. This is false. The text states that those dragons unable to cast cleric spells lose NOTHING when the archetype is applied. It says nothing about DM adjudication of whether they can take an archetype. Instead it states that a DM must decide if those not listed with clerical domains should be assigned domains en lieu of using an archetype.
No, no. It only mentions green, white and black dragons as those that 'lose nothing'. By your strict readings, that would mean no other kind of dragon without access to cleric spells could take an archetype.



It doesn't say having racial hit dice are a requirement for the archetype.
No, because it is restricted to true dragons and all true dragons have racial hit dice. All examples are of true dragons and there are several mentions of racial hit dice throughout the text.


Kobolds advance by character level, so any reference to racial hit dice don't apply to them. The same text would not apply to a non-DWK true dragon that chose to take a sorcerer level rather than a dragon level.
No, not at all. You should notice that most templates are restricted to racial hit dice when applying their chances unless it says otherwise. Savage Species is pretty clear about this. Sovereign archetypes are not templates, but they work very much like templates, so just assuming 'the correct reading is the one that gives the most plusses' just sounds more munchkinish.


You are inserting conditions and requirements where there aren't any.
Not at all, I'm just filling the blanks with what is obviously intended instead of going for the most plusses.
Like I said, it is questionable by RAW (because dragonwrought kobolds are never stated to be true dragons - there are tables in Dragon Magic listing all true dragons and dragonwrought kobolds are not on them) and absolutely illegal by RAI.

[Galdor Miriel]

I just made one. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9593.0)

I like how it's turned out.

I'm probably going to alter it a bit, snag some maneuvers and stances by casting Heroics (SpC).

How did you get into swiftblade before you could cast haste? Haste is a third level spell so you need six levels of sorcerer.

[BeholderSlayer]

By this reasoning, you don't even need the dragon type. If your nickname is 'dragon', then you could take an archetype.
Now, the Sovereign archetypes are related to the true dragon's religion. The text mentions them specifically. It mentions no other kinds of dragons at all.
So yes, it is a stretch to say 'any dragon can take it' when the intent is so obvious. Heck, if you know even a little bit about Eberron fluff, there is no need for details.
Of course it does. It says "dragons." Those are types of dragons.



...if you really think +3 to all mental stats amounts to the same kind of 'increase in power' as extra hit dice, extra skill points, increases to all stats (even Dexterity, since it remains 10 no matter the size), extra racial abilities and sorcerer casting, I believe we have no reason to discuss anything. Ever.
Magnitude is irrelevant as it is never mentioned.



12? I only know of 4. Enlighten me.
Races of the Dragon, page 39, table 3-2



No, no. It only mentions green, white and black dragons as those that 'lose nothing'. By your strict readings, that would mean no other kind of dragon without access to cleric spells could take an archetype.
This restriction is not in print, despite the list of dragons without access to divine spells.



No, because it is restricted to true dragons and all true dragons have racial hit dice. All examples are of true dragons and there are several mentions of racial hit dice throughout the text.
"All true dragons have racial hit dice" cannot be found in a definition of a true dragon at any point.



No, not at all. You should notice that most templates are restricted to racial hit dice when applying their chances unless it says otherwise. Savage Species is pretty clear about this. Sovereign archetypes are not templates, but they work very much like templates, so just assuming 'the correct reading is the one that gives the most plusses' just sounds more munchkinish.
Ad hominem? Nice.



Not at all, I'm just filling the blanks with what is obviously intended instead of going for the most plusses.
Like I said, it is questionable by RAW (because dragonwrought kobolds are never stated to be true dragons - there are tables in Dragon Magic listing all true dragons and dragonwrought kobolds are not on them) and absolutely illegal by RAI.
Page?

[BeholderSlayer]

How did you get into swiftblade before you could cast haste? Haste is a third level spell so you need six levels of sorcerer.

Loredrake and White Dragonspawn give 2 and 1 level of sorcerer, respectively. At level 4 Skippy is a level 7 sorcerer.

[true_shinken]

Page?
Ironically, it's in races of the Dragon itself, actually.

The table above provides the benefits of the Draconic Heritage feat for all the kinds of true dragons published
in D&D products to date.
Emphasis mine. No mention of dragonwrought kobold.

I won't argue your other points, since there is basis to debate for either side on RAW. Dragons of Eberron is badly written.
RAI is pretty obvious, though. Questionable RAW and in obvious conflict RAI = hardly practical.

Oh, I might just point out that while Races od the Dragon does indeed mention age categories for dragons... those have no in-game effect at all. Their 'power increase' comes from other mechanic altogether. Again, RAI is pretty obvious.

[BeholderSlayer]

When Races of the Dragon was written, it was not yet published. Hence, of course those are the ones published. Dragonwrought Kobolds were not published yet. That the writer of that section didn't consider the repercussions of another section of the book is not applicable.

[true_shinken]

When Races of the Dragon was written, it was not yet published. Hence, of course those are the ones published. Dragonwrought Kobolds were not published yet. That the writer of that section didn't consider the repercussions of another section of the book is not applicable.
:smallsigh:
Yeah, whatever. Good luck getting that past a DM.
RAI is obvious. I posted proof that RAW is pretty obvious as well. Deny as much as you want, there is no arguing against that table.
...Seriously, 'the book does not count itself as published'? SERIOUSLY?!

[Last Laugh]

[on-screen keyboard go!]

I like:
savage bard(ua) 4/rogue 2/ur priest 2/abjurant champion 2/sublime chord1/fo
chulcan lyrist 9
ba+16, good saves nice skill.
i havent a clue what you caster level is tho.

or
savage bard 4/paladin 2/abjurant champion 3/sublime chord 1/abjurant champion +2/knight phantom 8
silly caster level[16+10+4 practiced caster] 16 BA

[BeholderSlayer]

:smallsigh:
Yeah, whatever. Good luck getting that past a DM.
RAI is obvious. I posted proof that RAW is pretty obvious as well. Deny as much as you want, there is no arguing against that table.
...Seriously, 'the book does not count itself as published'? SERIOUSLY?!

You say that like I'm not a DM.

Tip: I am.

[true_shinken]

You say that like I'm not a DM.

Tip: I am.

So you never ever intend to play in game, you will always DM, all the time, until you stop playing D&D 3.5?
...then your rules exploitation is completely pointless :smallsigh:

[BeholderSlayer]

So you never ever intend to play in game, you will always DM, all the time, until you stop playing D&D 3.5?
...then your rules exploitation is completely pointless :smallsigh:

You've never made a custom NPC I guess, have you...

My group plays high powered, lethal, fast moving games. If you don't use powerful builds and a little cheese, you die. Repeatedly. It doesn't matter if I am the DM, or if the other guy that DM's in our group is DM. You either optimize, or you die a horrible and embarassing death.

My players are intelligent, and I would rather let them use that intelligence rather than force them to play a way that they don't enjoy. They enjoy the satisfaction of defeating optimized NPC's. They prefer that I not insult their intelligence and put them against chumps.

[Ravens_cry]

"Obviously" is a dangerous word. If you feel as a DM that some additional requirements are need to stop some serious shenanigans, then fine, go for it. Rule 0 exists for a reason.

[Saph]

My group plays high powered, lethal, fast moving games. If you don't use powerful builds and a little cheese, you die.

I think the point he's making is that this isn't a little cheese. Your build is a good example of how to make a pure cheese character which relies wholly on rule exploitation, but it's not a good practical example of a gish because it'd get you laughed out of most groups.

[true_shinken]

You've never made a custom NPC I guess, have you...
Of course I did. Since I'm the DM, I can give them any stats I want. I don't have to squeeze cheese out of every book within reach. If I want a character to have those stats, they have it, plain and simple.

I usually go more by-the-book, though, just because I like it. It's still unnecessary to use such cheese, because I can for example give them max hit points or a few contingent spells to even things out. Turning the game into an arms race looks like a very bad idea to me, specially since if a DM wants to win, he wins.

But if you are playing arena style numbercrunching games, I guess no advice will make any difference anyway. Hope you're enjoying it.


I think the point he's making is that this isn't a little cheese. Your build is a good example of how to make a pure cheese character which relies wholly on rule exploitation, but it's not a good practical example of a gish because it'd get you laughed out of most groups.
Thanks, that's exactly it.

[BeholderSlayer]

We do have a lot of fun. Much more fun than "I magic missile the darkness!"

Edit to your edit: lol okay herp derp

[true_shinken]

We do have a lot of fun. Much more fun than "I magic missile the darkness!"

Edit to your edit: lol okay herp derp

I just have to point this out. An optimized true dragon is a lot more dangerous than your kobold. Well, it doesn't even need to be THAT optimized, does it? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)
No need to discuss anything anymore I believe, our playstyles (and age, it seems) are much too different.

[BeholderSlayer]

That comic strip just totally convinced me.

[Greenish]

That comic strip just totally convinced me.I should point out that a Dragonwrought kobold is still totally a dragon even in Anti-Magic Field. :smallwink:

[true_shinken]

I should point out that a Dragonwrought kobold is still totally a dragon even in Anti-Magic Field. :smallwink:
You just had to burst my bubble, right? ^^
...but a kobold in an antimagic field is not a true dragon! HAH!

[BeholderSlayer]

I should point out that a Dragonwrought kobold is still totally a dragon even in Anti-Magic Field. :smallwink:

eh, Antimagic field has bucket of fail all over it.

[true_shinken]

eh, Antimagic field has bucket of fail all over it.

If by fail you mean win, you are correct.

[Greenish]

...but a kobold in an antimagic field is not a true dragon! HAH!I shan't touch that with an 11' pole.

Going sort of back to the actual topic, where are the handbooks for gishin' it up?

[BeholderSlayer]

If by fail you mean win, you are correct.

No, I definitely mean fail. Using it is like shouting "I'm really dumb, please kill me and put me out of my misery."

[Eldariel]

No, I definitely mean fail. Using it is like shouting "I'm really dumb, please kill me and put me out of my misery."

What? Initiate of Mystra makes it work just fine.

[BeholderSlayer]

What? Initiate of Mystra makes it work just fine.

True, and an optimized ice caster makes nuking work just fine too. That doesn't make it a good idea in general.

[Psyren]

I shan't touch that with an 11' pole.

Going sort of back to the actual topic, where are the handbooks for gishin' it up?

Gish is a playstyle, rather than a class, so you'll typically find a "gish" section within other classes' handbooks. General gish handbooks do exist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0) but tend to be pretty broad.

[true_shinken]

Using it just before you grapple someone which has a natural grapple modifier a lot lower than yoursis like shouting "I'm really awesome, I win."
Fixed that for you.

[BeholderSlayer]

Fixed that for you.
Grappling????

You aren't serious, are you?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Gish is a playstyle, rather than a class, so you'll typically find a "gish" section within other classes' handbooks. General gish handbooks do exist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0) but tend to be pretty broad.

On that note, what does a Gish do? They can cast and fight, but you only get one Standard, one Move, and one Swift action per round (barring special cases, i.e. Swiftblade 9, Hustle and similar powers, etc.). Do they play God then go to town with mundane combat, do they buff themselves to celestia and back and then melee it up? A bit of both perhaps?

[ArcanistSupreme]

On that note, what does a Gish do? They can cast and fight, but you only get one Standard, one Move, and one Swift action per round (barring special cases, i.e. Swiftblade 9, Hustle and similar powers, etc.). Do they play God then go to town with mundane combat, do they buff themselves to celestia and back and then melee it up? A bit of both perhaps?

I've never played one, but I was under the impression that their shtick was mainly buffing up (Especially with long-term buffs. Thanks, Abjurant Champion!) and then going to town in melee, which is why a BAB of +16 is always so important for that extra attack. But they will always have the option to just go god if they need to, so they have more versatility than their vanilla melee counterparts. Ruby Knight Vindicators can also break the action economy, as can any gish with time stop or similar. Psionic gishes with access to schism also do this quite handily (plus, no ASF!).

[Petrocorus]

[on-screen keyboard go!]

I like:
savage bard(ua) 4/rogue 2/ur priest 2/abjurant champion 2/sublime chord1/fo
chulcan lyrist 9
ba+16, good saves nice skill.
i havent a clue what you caster level is tho.


Seems powerful, i'm going to study this.



or
savage bard 4/paladin 2/abjurant champion 3/sublime chord 1/abjurant champion +2/knight phantom 8
silly caster level[16+10+4 practiced caster] 16 BA

How do you qualify for sublime chord at 9th level? Psychic reformation?

[Psyren]

On that note, what does a Gish do? They can cast and fight, but you only get one Standard, one Move, and one Swift action per round (barring special cases, i.e. Swiftblade 9, Hustle and similar powers, etc.). Do they play God then go to town with mundane combat, do they buff themselves to celestia and back and then melee it up? A bit of both perhaps?

It's mostly the second, as if you're going to be playing God you're better off just staying in that role than trying to muck about with melee ability in your build. After all, if you can blind/paralyze/level drain an enemy to become defenseless, it doesn't matter how many lessons you took on swashbuckling when you stab his exposed chest with your pocket knife.

[Road_Runner]

My favorite Gish was an Eldritch Disciple.

Persist Divine Power and use Eldritch Glaive ftw.

[herrhauptmann]

On that note, what does a Gish do? They can cast and fight, but you only get one Standard, one Move, and one Swift action per round (barring special cases, i.e. Swiftblade 9, Hustle and similar powers, etc.). Do they play God then go to town with mundane combat, do they buff themselves to celestia and back and then melee it up? A bit of both perhaps?

-I'd say it's more of a selfbuff followed by melee, coupled with being Batman, but you have to be a better batman than batman (if that makes sense).
-Even with Abj Champ 5 boosting your CL to =BAB, you'll still have a lower CL and lower level spells than the party wizard (minus the cheese being argued above). And a slightly worse warrior (unbuffed at least), than the party fighter/barb/pally, whichever you used as the base of your melee.
-But it's the spells that are the key. A level or two of CL, and a level or two of spells, you've got that many fewer options, and it's even more difficult to make them work because of that lower CL. Plus some of your options are by requirement, spent on the spells you need as a gish, so you've got EVEN fewer options.

Sorry that was slightly rambling, it's late, but I really wanted to get that out there.

[Kantolin]

On that note, what does a Gish do? They can cast and fight, but you only get one Standard, one Move, and one Swift action per round

While almost certainly less optimal, the duskblade is what most (or at least a sizeable amount of) people want in a gish. It's primarily in options: You can beat people with your weapon, you can use your spells to augment your stabbings, you can cast a spell at people who are distant from you.

So you, say, use a swift spell and then full attack someone. You then next turn can dimensional anchor a teleporting target, or seeking ray after one who's simply out of range. Things like that.

^_^ Or at least, that's why I like being gishes - gives you a lot to do. I like bards for the same reason.

[Amiel]

If you're interested in Pathfinder, there's the Magus (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8gte) class (it's still being playtested). It blends the arcanist and weapon specialist into one base class.

[Endarire]

Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) - I enjoy my Trancer build.

If you prefer something more traditional, I recommend Gray Elf OR Human Conjurer5/Crusader1/Jade Phoenix Mage5/Abjurant Champion5/Full Caster+4.

Having played a gish, the warrior side helps majorly when the DM negates your best spells through immunities or reliably high save rolls. I consider gishing more of a fallback plan since I prefer full casters, and the spells are worth it.

I gished also to save spells, but that became less of a concern when I focused on party buffs. Wind up the group and let 'em loose. In short, they shall rock because I say so, and I may as well partake in these group buffs. (Ocular + Chain + Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect)

[Godless_Paladin]

Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards all lend themselves well to gish builds.

Also, don't discount the potential of a divine "gish." Clerics and Druids naturally make for good martial characters while still being able to blast, buff, control, etc.


Grappling????

Wizards actually make great grapplers, and it's a viable tactic straight from level 1. Here's an example: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119

This is just one of the many ways you can create different flavors of up close and personal spellcasters.

[true_shinken]

I'm not really fond of 'Batman gishes'. Batman doesn't need any extra help - just be Batman already, if you are gishing then you are stepping on someone else's toes, most likely, unless your party is full casters only.

I really like those gishes with classes like Suel Arcanamach, Duskblade and Knight of the Weave, though. The best buffing spells (except for Shapechange cheese, and that's very high on the 'known cheese' (therefore nonpractical) territory) are below 6th level. That's what I see a gish doing, as a concept - his magic is able to make him fight better, but not much else. Think of Taegan from Year of Rogue Dragons, for example. That's what I picture a gish doing.

[BeholderSlayer]

Wizards actually make great grapplers, and it's a viable tactic straight from level 1. Here's an example: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119

I know that, I think you missed the meaning of my post.

Casters are either amazing grapplers, or they plain ignore it and laugh at it.

[true_shinken]

I know that, I think you missed the meaning of my post.

Casters are either amazing grapplers, or they plain ignore it and laugh at it.

Not in antimagic field :smallsigh:

[BeholderSlayer]

Not in antimagic field :smallsigh:

Basket Weaving trumps Antimagic Field.

[Greenish]

I really like those gishes with classes like Suel Arcanamach, Duskblade and Knight of the Weave, though.Knight of the Weave has rather poor spell list, and both it and Arcanamach are just medium BAB, which is sad. Duskblade, though quite fun, has very few buffs.

[LordBlades]

Knight of the Weave has rather poor spell list, and both it and Arcanamach are just medium BAB, which is sad. Duskblade, though quite fun, has very few buffs.

Duskblade spell list focuses more on adding spell damage to attack damage, rather than buff yourself to deal more damage with your attacks.

That being said, it all depends on the rest of your party composition. If your other melee chars are fighters and paladins, a duskbalde and suel arcanamach will hold their own pretty well. However, if you're fighting alongisde druids and DMM clerics, you are going to need full wizard spell list not to fall behind.

[Greenish]

Duskblade spell list focuses more on adding spell damage to attack damage, rather than buff yourself to deal more damage with your attacks.I know, that's what I said, in reply to someone mentioning them just before starting to talk about how the good buff spells are low level.

[WinWin]

3 pages and no mention of Githyanki? Buff spells and a BFS (preferably silver). That's a Gish.

[Eldariel]

I'm not really fond of 'Batman gishes'. Batman doesn't need any extra help - just be Batman already, if you are gishing then you are stepping on someone else's toes, most likely, unless your party is full casters only.

I really like those gishes with classes like Suel Arcanamach, Duskblade and Knight of the Weave, though. The best buffing spells (except for Shapechange cheese, and that's very high on the 'known cheese' (therefore nonpractical) territory) are below 6th level. That's what I see a gish doing, as a concept - his magic is able to make him fight better, but not much else. Think of Taegan from Year of Rogue Dragons, for example. That's what I picture a gish doing.

I like the higher slots for Bite of the WereX, Quickens, Contingencies, proper Teleports (they have uses besides just escaping), Instant Refuges, Eyes of the Oracle (and in general, extra action granters), Battlemagic Perception, Greater Dispel, Disjunction and so on.

I always perceive Gish as someone with more than considerable competence in ridding people of magical protections, and with superior mobility on the battlefield. And Persisting low level spells the oldfashioned way doesn't hurt either; far less borked than Incantatrix for example.

[Last Laugh]

Seems powerful, i'm going to study this.



How do you qualify for sublime chord at 9th level? Psychic reformation?

I goofed. Consider it a typo. The big thing is using abj. champion and sublime chord to set a silly caster level.

[true_shinken]

Knight of the Weave has rather poor spell list, and both it and Arcanamach are just medium BAB, which is sad. Duskblade, though quite fun, has very few buffs.
Why should that be a problem? Aiming towards tier 1 looks like the real problem for me, that's when the game crumbles. I find these 'problems' you pointed to be strenghts.

[Greenish]

Why should that be a problem? Aiming towards tier 1 looks like the real problem for me, that's when the game crumbles. I find these 'problems' you pointed to be strenghts.Poor spell list (seriously, look at it) and medium BAB are strengths? Knight of the Weave should get good BAB, at the very least.

Besides, I was replying to your comment on how the best buff spells are level 6 or lower, by pointing out that two of the classes you named don't get access to even those.

[true_shinken]

Poor spell list (seriously, look at it) and medium BAB are strengths? Knight of the Weave should get good BAB, at the very least.
Not when he can so easily expand his spell list. Dipping Wyrm Wizard or Fiend Blooded when you have medium BAB hurts something. With full base attack bonus, it's a no brainer.


Besides, I was replying to your comment on how the best buff spells are level 6 or lower, by pointing out that two of the classes you named don't get access to even those.
Both classes do get a few buffs and work just fine, so I really don't see the point of your comment. If Knight of the Weave or Duskblade could not function as gishes, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.

[Greenish]

Not when he can so easily expand his spell list. Dipping Wyrm Wizard or Fiend Blooded when you have medium BAB hurts something. With full base attack bonus, it's a no brainer.Huh? :smallconfused:

What's BAB to do with those? Of the top of my head, Fiend Blooded is medium BAB, Wyrm Wizard poor.
Both classes do get a few buffs and work just fine, so I really don't see the point of your comment. If Knight of the Weave or Duskblade could not function as gishes, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.I didn't say they don't function (though Knight of the Weave is arguably worse gish than a straight paladin), I pointed out that neither gets the good low level buff spells you were talking about.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, that's the principle problem I have with the Dusbklade, the lack of buffage.

[Petrocorus]

Yeah, that's the principle problem I have with the Dusbklade, the lack of buffage.

The spell list of the Duskblade is really poor actually.

They don't even ave an utility spell like "mount". Not to mention more really useful ones that any gish would look for.

[Coidzor]

The spell list of the Duskblade is really poor actually.

They don't even ave an utility spell like "mount". Not to mention more really useful ones that any gish would look for.

Indeed. I wonder whether it'd have any noticeable impact on balance to give them some utility to make them not dependent on a UMDer or primary caster for some utility and buff spells at the very least.

And what spells would be best to give 'em. I'm not really a fan of Arcane Disciple...:smallyuk:

[Greenish]

And what spells would be best to give 'em. I'm not really a fan of Arcane Disciple...:smallyuk:Dolorous Blow, Whirling Blade (do they have that one already?), Mighty Wallop and Greater Mighty Wallop would be in the swordmage mold.

[Petrocorus]

Indeed. I wonder whether it'd have any noticeable impact on balance to give them some utility to make them not dependent on a UMDer or primary caster for some utility and buff spells at the very least.

And what spells would be best to give 'em. I'm not really a fan of Arcane Disciple...:smallyuk:

We could open a new thread on the Duskblade spell list.
Even with core only, there are many spell they should have and that would not unbalance them.

"Enlarge person" for example, that would be so logical. And by the time they can really spam it, the wizard have access to far more powerful spells. So, not unbalanced IMHO.

[true_shinken]

Huh? :smallconfused:

What's BAB to do with those? Of the top of my head, Fiend Blooded is medium BAB, Wyrm Wizard poor.
Both are poor BAB. Maybe you're confusinge Fiend-blooded with Acolyte of the Skin.


I didn't say they don't function (though Knight of the Weave is arguably worse gish than a straight paladin), I pointed out that neither gets the good low level buff spells you were talking about.
But they do get a few of them. Knight of the Weave gets the abilit boosting spells and greater magic weapon, Duskblade gets Blade of Blood, Deflect, Swift Invisibility, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon and Crown of Might/Protection to mention a few. Those are buff spells - they do get to buff and all.

[Cerlis]

what is a "Gish" anyways"

[Psyren]

what is a "Gish" anyways"

A character that is competent at both magic and melee.

Historically this was a multiclass character, but new classes (e.g. Duskblade, Psychic Warrior) and better options for traditional ones (e.g. Bards) have opened the doors to single-class gishes.

See more commonly used terms here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124685) in the forum sticky.