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View Full Version : CharGen: Point buy or 4D6 and take three best dice?



Black_Zawisza
2010-10-15, 09:06 PM
Which do the Giants In The Playground prefer, and why? I dislike the dice roll system for two reasons: 1) The average stat will be a 10.5, while COMMONERS have average scores of 10. Assuming you roll slightly above average or worse (and don't fudge the numbers :smalltongue:), you won't have ANY positive ability modifiers. Suck. And 2) it seems only fair to me to start everyone on an even playing field. I hate how so much of the game can be determined by that single dice roll right at the beginning.

EDIT: Right, forgot that taking the three highest dice increases the average. Not by much, though.

Morithias
2010-10-15, 09:09 PM
Which do the Giants In The Playground prefer, and why? I dislike the dice roll system for two reasons: 1) The average stat will be a 10.5, while COMMONERS have average scores of 10. Assuming you roll slightly above average or worse (and don't fudge the numbers :smalltongue:), you won't have ANY positive ability modifiers. Suck. And 2) it seems only fair to me to start everyone on an even playing field. I hate how so much of the game can be determined by that single dice roll right at the beginning.

The PC's aren't suppose to be 'average' if they were normal people, they wouldn't be randomly risky their lives on something most people would never even consider.

It's hard convincing people to even consider the profession skill now, trying to make everyone average and having them play the 'normal people' for a whole camp would be the equivalent of DM suicide.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 09:17 PM
The latter one is the main reason I use point buy. I can design a roll system that'll get me stats around whatever average I want...but all a roll system adds is variability in the starting stats.

I don't particularly want people to have advantages or disadvantages based solely on initial luck. So, point buy it is.

Kylarra
2010-10-15, 09:24 PM
I usually offer rolling in order or pointbuy as a backup if your initial scores are too low. It's been so long since I've played a game with stats like that though.

The-Mage-King
2010-10-15, 09:32 PM
Roll 5d6b3. That ups the average a bit.

And, if I do use PB, I won't go under 32. I like my characters nice and strong...

Black_Zawisza
2010-10-15, 09:38 PM
I also prefer point-buy because it's far better for min/maxing. Lots of classes are mostly dependent on only one or two scores, and it's far better to have those maxed out than to have 14 across the board.

My DM, sadly, seems to prefer the dice roll method...:smallannoyed:

Rixx
2010-10-15, 10:04 PM
The average of 3d6 is 10.5. 4d6 drop lowest is higher.

I think a lot of players are addicted to high stats.

Jallorn
2010-10-15, 10:19 PM
I was under the impression that the average of 3d6 was 12...

Well anyway, the roll system is supposed to produce an average of 12 for the heroes, although I can't recall if they meant 3d6 or 4d6b3.

Plus, you can reroll if you have a net modifier of 0 or lower.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-15, 10:25 PM
Faced with the choice of 4d6b3 or 18 point buy, I would take dice rolling without hesitation for almost any character concept. For most concepts, though, the certainty from 25 pb is better than the average gain from dice rolling, and higher pbs are gravy. That said, after rolling up (good) 32 and 33 point buy equivalent lines for a character and backup character in a 3.5 game, I can't complain about my own experiences with randomness.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-15, 10:43 PM
I also prefer point-buy because it's far better for min/maxing. Lots of classes are mostly dependent on only one or two scores, and it's far better to have those maxed out than to have 14 across the board.

My DM, sadly, seems to prefer the dice roll method...:smallannoyed:

Eh, if they let you allocate the scores, dice roll is pretty good for min-maxing, unless you're just unlucky. After all, the only thing better than putting dump stats where they wont matter is not having dump stats.

Last time I we used 4d6b3, I had no stats under 13...and another player had two 14s, two 16s, and two 18s. The others were not so lucky, by a significant margin.

One other fringe benefit of point buy is that you can have players whip up their chars at home, without any suspicion of if they really did pull off that amazingly lucky roll.

Swordgleam
2010-10-15, 11:10 PM
Rolling for a one-shot, point buy for anything longer. Although I rolled absurdly good stats for the SWSE game I'm in, so I might have to reconsider - I acknowledge that most of my bias against rolling is because I usually roll lousy.

I've seen a lot of interesting ways of rolling. I've seen roll 4d6 7 times, drop lowest of the seven and lowest each roll. I've seen 4d6 drop lowest reroll ones. My very first group had a choice of 4d6 drop lowest, and roll 5d6 in order drop lowest two. I still ended up with a Dex of 5.

RufusCorvus
2010-10-16, 12:45 AM
I find myself disliking both systems. Rolling is too random and might lead to players starting on an uneven keel. But then point buy lends itself to being too inorganic. But between the two, I'll take point buy.

Yes, I'm kind of hard to please.

Xuc Xac
2010-10-16, 01:23 AM
I find myself disliking both systems. Rolling is too random and might lead to players starting on an uneven keel. But then point buy lends itself to being too inorganic. But between the two, I'll take point buy.


Try making characters as a group. Roll one set of 6 numbers and then every PC will arrange those same 6 numbers in the order they want for their stats. It's random, but no one gets a better roll than anyone else.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-16, 02:03 AM
I've tried experimenting with these as a DM, and as far as it goes, probably the best way I've found is 8+1d10 or 6+1d12 for slightly tougher odds. This usually results in stat arrays that are good for most players, (2 stats heroic good, 2 stats heroic average, 2 stats heroic poor.)
For PbP though, there is no option except point buy.

ranagrande
2010-10-16, 02:28 AM
Try making characters as a group. Roll one set of 6 numbers and then every PC will arrange those same 6 numbers in the order they want for their stats. It's random, but no one gets a better roll than anyone else.

Something similar that I have done before is where the players each roll a set of stats and then choose which set they want to use, the one they rolled or any of the others.

Xuc Xac
2010-10-16, 02:28 AM
The PC's aren't suppose to be 'average' if they were normal people, they wouldn't be randomly risky their lives on something most people would never even consider.


So you're saying PCs should all have below average Wisdom scores?

RufusCorvus
2010-10-16, 02:52 AM
Try making characters as a group. Roll one set of 6 numbers and then every PC will arrange those same 6 numbers in the order they want for their stats. It's random, but no one gets a better roll than anyone else.

That was a thought I've had and seen lots of places. Sort of a "pick your own array."

kyoryu
2010-10-16, 03:49 AM
I think it depends on the game. The more the game tends towards "PCs are special snowflakes that will never die," the more point-buy is appropriate. The more the game tends towards "The world is grimdark place and PCs will die left and right," the more random generation works.

Ravens_cry
2010-10-16, 04:07 AM
If I have a specific concept in mind, I prefer the predictability of point buy.

Kaldrin
2010-10-16, 04:50 AM
We roll the points in the point buy.

dsmiles
2010-10-16, 07:42 AM
The more the game tends towards "The world is grimdark place and PCs will die left and right," the more random generation works.

This is exactly why my group rolls. Usually 4d6 keep the best 3, but occasionally 3d6 in order (just for extra grim darkness).

Amphetryon
2010-10-16, 08:19 AM
Try making characters as a group. Roll one set of 6 numbers and then every PC will arrange those same 6 numbers in the order they want for their stats. It's random, but no one gets a better roll than anyone else.

We did this. Enjoy 16 15 14 12 10 4....

Raimun
2010-10-16, 08:43 AM
I've been thinking about 4D6-b3 and after the players have decided how to allocate their dice rolls, tell them to upgrade the stat they left the lowest to 18!

That would be a surprise. Genius Fighters, Charismatic Barbarians, cat-like Clerics and totally ripped Wizards. :smallamused:

Though few would be wise as Gandalf and even fewer would get those +4 hp per level. I think this would work at least once.

Emmerask
2010-10-16, 09:46 AM
The average of 3d6 is 10.5. 4d6 drop lowest is higher.

I think a lot of players are addicted to high stats.

to be precise with 4d6b3 the avg stat is 13 :smallwink:


I was under the impression that the average of 3d6 was 12...

Not really, 3.5 is the avg for 1d6; 3d7 would be 12


We use 3d6b4 with 3 sets which worked quite nicely.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-16, 09:49 AM
I've been thinking about 4D6-b3 and after the players have decided how to allocate their dice rolls, tell them to upgrade the stat they left the lowest to 18!

That would be a surprise. Genius Fighters, Charismatic Barbarians, cat-like Clerics and totally ripped Wizards. :smallamused:

Though few would be wise as Gandalf and even fewer would get those +4 hp per level. I think this would work at least once.

That would be funny indeed.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 09:52 AM
I've been thinking about 4D6-b3 and after the players have decided how to allocate their dice rolls, tell them to upgrade the stat they left the lowest to 18!

That would be a surprise. Genius Fighters, Charismatic Barbarians, cat-like Clerics and totally ripped Wizards. :smallamused:

Though few would be wise as Gandalf and even fewer would get those +4 hp per level. I think this would work at least once.

This'd be amusing for a few minutes, until the wizard realizes that 5 in int dooms him.

Time to suicide!

Emmerask
2010-10-16, 09:54 AM
This'd be amusing for a few minutes, until the wizard realizes that 5 in int dooms him.

Time to suicide!

Did I misunderstand the idea?
I was under the impression that nothing changes but the lowest stat gets boosted to 18? so why would the wizard put 5 in int in the first place?

/edit or did you mean the second time where the dm doesn´t do the boost?

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 09:55 AM
Did I misunderstand the idea?
I was under the impression that nothing changes but the lowest stat gets boosted to 18? so why would the wizard put 5 in int in the first place?

Oh, I misunderstood, I assumed that it was a reversal of order.

No, in that case, it's just hilariously good fun. Not a bad idea, actually.

Kaldrin
2010-10-16, 09:56 AM
I think a lot of players are addicted to high stats.

I don't think Stats are as meaningful as people make them up to be. Every two stat increases equals a 5% bonus to a roll. Mid and late game that's not really that big of a deal. We've done the experiment by giving all classes all 18s. Was easier until about level 5 and then it became normalized.

Emmerask
2010-10-16, 09:56 AM
Oh, I misunderstood, I assumed that it was a reversal of order.

No, in that case, it's just hilariously good fun. Not a bad idea, actually.

Yeah I like it quite a lot too :smallbiggrin:

The_Admiral
2010-10-16, 09:58 AM
Point buy the dice seem to hate me

thompur
2010-10-16, 10:02 AM
My group uses straight point allocation. 79 pts. No stat over 18 or under 6 before racial adjustments. Everybody seems to like it. It works out well for MAD characters.

Raimun
2010-10-16, 10:35 AM
Did I misunderstand the idea?
I was under the impression that nothing changes but the lowest stat gets boosted to 18? so why would the wizard put 5 in int in the first place?

/edit or did you mean the second time where the dm doesn´t do the boost?

Yeah, you got the idea, only the lowest stat would be altered. The rest would be as players intended.

And yeah, it would be different the second time when players might expect the boost. That's why I said it would work at least once. Probably only once with the same people.

Actually, now that I think about it, the boost should happen after the players have picked a class.

Kaldrin
2010-10-16, 11:06 AM
Yeah, you got the idea, only the lowest stat would be altered. The rest would be as players intended.

And yeah, it would be different the second time when players might expect the boost. That's why I said it would work at least once. Probably only once with the same people.

Actually, now that I think about it, the boost should happen after the players have picked a class.

What prevents them from switching classes? First level fighter 18 Int. At second level the class is wizard from that point on.

Raimun
2010-10-16, 12:14 PM
What prevents them from switching classes? First level fighter 18 Int. At second level the class is wizard from that point on.

Character concept? A Fighter-esque build that the player wants to try? Obsessive optimization syndrome? The party already has a (ripped) wizard? Sheer amusement?

Apart from those, nothing.

dgnslyr
2010-10-16, 12:46 PM
Point buy for sure- it's much easier to make an effective character of the concept you had in mind. Also, I can't trust my luck with dice...

arrowhen
2010-10-16, 02:09 PM
Elite array.

Although with the right group, I've had good results with "pick whatever stats you want. Be reasonable."

Raimun
2010-10-16, 02:26 PM
Elite array.

Although with the right group, I've had good results with "pick whatever stats you want. Be reasonable."

"All my stats are 18. It makes perfect sense too. You see my character was injected with super soldier-serum and right after that *BAM* the inventor of the serum was killed by an assassin sent by the Lawful Evil-nation. Alas, the inventor didn't believe in making notes so no one else can have the serum anymore."

Kaldrin
2010-10-16, 02:44 PM
Character concept? A Fighter-esque build that the player wants to try? Obsessive optimization syndrome? The party already has a (ripped) wizard? Sheer amusement?

Apart from those, nothing.

Concept? Really? You're going out of your way to troll your own players. That sort of thing would be dimly viewed by anyone I've ever played with and everyone would do everything they could to destroy that game from that point on.

Moriato
2010-10-16, 03:34 PM
I dislike the dice roll system for two reasons: 1) The average stat will be a 10.5, while COMMONERS have average scores of 10. Assuming you roll slightly above average or worse (and don't fudge the numbers :smalltongue:), you won't have ANY positive ability modifiers. Suck.

I'm AFB right now, but I'm fairly certain that if you average your stat bonuses, and the result is < +1, you're entitled to a re-roll

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-16, 03:46 PM
I'm AFB right now, but I'm fairly certain that if you average your stat bonuses, and the result is < +1, you're entitled to a re-rollTo confirm, here's the excerpt from PHB page 8:
REROLLING
If your scores are too low, you may scrap them and roll all six scores
again. Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your
modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if
your highest score is 13 or lower.

Moriato
2010-10-16, 03:52 PM
To confirm, here's the excerpt from PHB page 8:

Thank you, I actually just found it myself, too.

Point being, you can never really wind up with no positive modifiers, unless you choose to.

big teej
2010-10-16, 04:28 PM
my groups roll.

typically, we roll 4d6 drop lowest,

if we want a slight padding with that, we roll 4d6 drop lowest plus a 1d4 padding.

if we want a 'safety net' we do 4d6 drop lowest with a 1d6 padding.

if we want to play 'higher end' characters
we play 'high power' 5d6 drop lowest 2
with the additional opptions of the d4 or d6 padding.

I do not find one system inherently 'better' than the other. its what the group enjoys using that matters.

and my groups like for the dice to fall where they may.

/ramble.

Raimun
2010-10-16, 05:55 PM
Concept? Really? You're going out of your way to troll your own players. That sort of thing would be dimly viewed by anyone I've ever played with and everyone would do everything they could to destroy that game from that point on.

Huh? I mean some people actually like to play certain kinds of characters like the clichéd "mighty warrior" and aren't even interested in changing their character concept in the middle of the game. Most players tend to decide before a campaign what kind of a character they like to play.

Besides, all of the above limitations aren't set by the DM but the players themselves.

Emmerask
2010-10-17, 12:38 AM
Concept? Really? You're going out of your way to troll your own players.

I don´t quite see what a free boost to one stat even if it is the most unimportant has to do with trolling?

I wouldn´t change my character concept because of this but take it as a minor boost, maybe some feats are now viable and deserve reconsideration or as a Fighter I get skillpoints now... hardly a point you could feel cheated, betrayed or trolled about

Raimun
2010-10-17, 09:01 AM
I don´t quite see what a free boost to one stat even if it is the most unimportant has to do with trolling?

I wouldn´t change my character concept because of this but take it as a minor boost, maybe some feats are now viable and deserve reconsideration or as a Fighter I get skillpoints now... hardly a point you could feel cheated, betrayed or trolled about

That's the whole point. Giving the classes some unusual options.

prufock
2010-10-17, 09:29 AM
I was under the impression that the average of 3d6 was 12...


to be precise with 4d6b3 the avg stat is 13

For the record, it's 10.5 for 3d6, 12.24 (to 2 decimal places) for 4d6 drop-lowest.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-10-17, 09:44 AM
Personally, I prefer point buy, using 32 points as a general rule, and no lower than 28 (which is what a 4d6b3 spread should give stats roughly equal to). I like it because you don't have to worry so much about getting stats that are wrong for your character concept, or don't allow it to work. In my experience, that hasn't been much of a problem unless you are assigning rolls to stats before you actually see the roll. But I can see how a MAD character could suffer easily with poor rolls, even without pre-assignment.

Xuc Xac
2010-10-18, 05:22 AM
if we want to play 'higher end' characters
we play 'high power' 5d6 drop lowest 2
with the additional opptions of the d4 or d6 padding.


5d6, drop the lowest 2, and add an extra 1d6? At that point, why bother rolling at all? Just say you have all 18s and call it a day.

FelixG
2010-10-18, 05:29 AM
i find the best system is 2d6+6

That way you have a range between 8-18 with an average of 13.

dsmiles
2010-10-18, 11:07 AM
i find the best system is 2d6+6

That way you have a range between 8-18 with an average of 13.

That's...not bad. I kinda like this one. Above average scores, still random, minimal dice.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-10-18, 11:58 AM
And, if you find that the scores are too low, you can it 3d6b2+6like you might for a higher-powered game. I think I'll steal that to run by my group.

Tharck
2010-10-18, 01:19 PM
I use a 1d10+8 roll 6x and place the stats where you feel. All of my PCs have preferred that method.

Trisk
2010-10-18, 01:24 PM
Depends on the circumstance, long running serious campaigns fighting the dark gods of the realm? Point buy, I want the players on average footing, bad dice can ruin a players fun if they're stuck with them for awhile. On the other hand, short-dungeon crawls or games in 1e-ish systems I'll do 3d6 organic, just for the fun of it being ABOUT the luck, there's no character attachment anyways, so what's the harm?

big teej
2010-10-18, 01:54 PM
5d6, drop the lowest 2, and add an extra 1d6? At that point, why bother rolling at all? Just say you have all 18s and call it a day.

for the record, it was not my idea, I wanted to just roll 5d6 and call it a day, but I was outvoted by a bunch of hack and slashers.....

also, in their defense (sorta)

I'm the only one in the group who had dice that loved me.

that said, I agree, I wouldn't want to run anything over 5d6 drop 2

Tharck
2010-10-18, 02:14 PM
I personally dislike point-buy system because it favors favors with less stat selection over Hybrids. (And hybrids could be considered slightly less potent than straight core classes)

TaliaJacta
2010-10-18, 02:23 PM
In my main group, we roll 4d6, reroll any 1s, then take the three best. It gives slightly better stats than just 4d6, but is still a bit more organic than point-buy.

It all comes down to personal preference, ultimately. As long as everyone in the party uses the same system, all the methods are pretty valid.

zyborg
2010-10-18, 02:35 PM
I seem to be one of the few who likes the stats to be at least semi-random... I prefer dice over point buy, though there should be some way to combine the two... like roll 2d6 for each as 'natural stats', and then use the point system to add points to the different stats. Or not. I'm just throwing that out there.