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Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:01 AM
Just got home from today's session. Here's the setup:

Having just fled a ghoul-infested town in an attempt to get as far away as possible from the local unstoppable Pyramid Head Expy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy), the PCs began taking the ocean east in their dinky little rowboat. On the third day, in an admittedly blatant act of railroading, they were smacked by a tidal wave and blacked out.

They woke up an indeterminate ammount of time later in a northern nation, one notable for being antagonistic to their own homeland, and elves in general. Unfortunately, the PCs wake up in the custody of a military patrol from said nation. They're hauled off to the local outpost and upon learning that one of the PCs is a Druid, they're given the option of either finding out why the local wildlife has abruptly turned hostile, or being executed. They choose the former.

The next night, on their way to find out the problem, the Druid spots a wolf near camp. Approaching it, he casts speak with animals to ask it what's the deal with the attacks. The wolf, evidently not interested in conversation, responds by biting the Druid in the arm.

Then **** hits the fan. The party, and the military patrol accompanying them, wake up to find that they're completely surrounded by wolves. They begin to fight, but due to the sheer number of people involved the session had to be cut short mid-fight. The last thing that happened before the session ended was a bear had just charged into the fray.

The PCs also realized that the wolves were taking a simply ridiculous ammount of damage without dropping, didn't bleed, and had no noticeable reaction to their wounds.

What the PCs DON'T know is that all of the creatures attacking them are in fact constructs. Effigies, to be exact.

Here's my concern, plain and simple: Below are everyone involved in the battle. Am I at risk of a TPK, or am I within acceptable losses? (In my warped world, that meaning one or two PC deaths at the most.)

Party:
Level 2 Elf Druid (Studded Leather, Scimitar) - 4/12 Damage
Level 2 Wolf CompanionLevel 2 Elf Ranger (MW Studded Leather, Longbow)
Level 2 Elf Samurai (Banded Mail, MW Katana)
Level 2 Elf Samurai (Breastplate, MW Katana/MW Wakizashi) - 9/19 Damage
Level 2 Human Hexblade (Chain Shirt, Katana)
Level 2 Human Barbarian (Chain Shirt, Greataxe) - Raging, 1/6 Rounds

Allies:
Level 1 Human Fighter (Padded, Shortbow) - Entangled
Level 1 Human Fighter (Padded, Shortbow)
Level 1 Human Fighter (Padded, Battleaxe) - 9/12 Damage
Level 1 Human Fighter (Padded, Battleaxe)
Level 1 Human Fighter (Padded, Morningstar) - Entangled
Level 1 Human Fighter (Padded, Morningstar) - Entangled
Level 3 Human Fighter (MW Breastplate/MW Heavy Shield, MW Shortsword) - 13/26 Damage, Entangled
Level 3 Human Fighter (MW Breastplate/MW Heavy Shield, MW Shortsword) - 12/26 Damage
Level 3 Human Fighter (MW Breastplate/MW Heavy Shield, MW Shortsword) - Entangled

Enemies:
Effigy Wolf - 9/32 Damage, Entangled
Effigy Wolf - 4/32 Damage
Effigy Wolf - 3/32 Damage
Effigy Wolf - 3/32 Damage
Effigy Wolf - 25/32 Damage
Effigy Wolf - 16/32 Damage
Effigy Brown Bear

Start of third round.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:15 AM
Wow, at first blush it looks like this is going to be ugly. I can't tell how many people will live throug it from this though. Could i get a grid or something to show who is where in relation to these effigies? That would give me a great idea how this might go.

mucat
2010-10-16, 12:17 AM
Do the wolves trip people, like real wolves would? If so, this looks like serious trouble. (If they don't, it looks like frivolous, lighthearted trouble with flowers and rainbow and sparkles.)

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 12:17 AM
Effigies? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020802)

General rule of thumb is, try to avoid adding more friendly NPCs than there are players. It'll slow combat to a crawl. But anyhoo, on to results. I'll be assuming you mean the Effigy construct from Complete Arcane.

I would expect level 1 fighters to be dropping like flies. The effigy brown bear clocks in at what, 63 hp or some such? Coupled with the DR, that should take a while to put down. Ac increases slightly, str increases noticeably.

Should be doable, provided you focus the brunt of the attacks on the NPCs, but it's gonna be a slog.

Edit: Yes, avoid the special abilities. Trip and improved grab offer the potential to take the dangerous PCs out of the fight, while the rest just casually eat their way through the NPCs, who are not likely to be able to stop them.

arguskos
2010-10-16, 12:18 AM
Biggest question here is how tactically minded are the PCs and what does the Druid still have to work with?

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:19 AM
In theory they won't take too much longer to kill most of the wolves, they're pretty damaged. That bear is going to be a serious problem though. You may want to consider sending it into battle at less than full hp to even this up. Say, it tangle with a real bear earlier in the day or something.

*edit: Heck, even make this one a real bear that just happens to be territorial. Have it attack the unharmed wolf.

mucat
2010-10-16, 12:20 AM
In theory they won't take too much longer to kill most of the wolves, they're pretty damaged.

You might be reading the numbers wrong. My take was that Psycho is listing the damage they've taken, not the hitpoints they have left.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:22 AM
I think you're reading the numbers wrong. Psycho is listing the damage they've taken, not the hitpoints they have left.

Ooohhhh.....your PC's are dead. Absolutely. Chunky salsa.

mucat
2010-10-16, 12:22 AM
(Unless I'm the one reading the numbers wrong!)

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:24 AM
Effigies? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020802)

General rule of thumb is, try to avoid adding more friendly NPCs than there are players. It'll slow combat to a crawl. But anyhoo, on to results. I'll be assuming you mean the Effigy construct from Complete Arcane.

Effigy creature, correct. And this is their first encounter with them, so the reason for the NPCs is to have them die horribly and show that these are things not to be ****ed with.


I would expect level 1 fighters to be dropping like flies. The effigy brown bear clocks in at what, 63 hp or some such? Coupled with the DR, that should take a while to put down. Ac increases slightly, str increases noticeably.

58 HP, 31 STR, DR 3/Adamantine.


Should be doable, provided you focus the brunt of the attacks on the NPCs, but it's gonna be a slog.

The effigies priorities will probably be: Whatever's Closest -> Level 3 Fighters -> PCs -> Level 1 Fighters.


Do the wolves trip people, like real wolves would? If so, this looks like serious trouble. (If they don't, it looks like frivolous, lighthearted trouble with flowers and rainbow and sparkles.)

Edit: Yes, avoid the special abilities. Trip and improved grab offer the potential to take the dangerous PCs out of the fight, while the rest just casually eat their way through the NPCs, who are not likely to be able to stop them.

These are mindless constructs, so I think I'll leave the abilities alone.


Biggest question here is how tactically minded are the PCs and what does the Druid still have to work with?

They're largely fond of fighter-esque "full-attack until dead" tactics. The Druid has the following spells remaining:

Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Purify Food and Drink
Light

Not terribly helpful.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:25 AM
Assuming that the PC druid is the one who cast the entangle, you should persuade him to dismiss it, it's hurting your allies way more than it helps. Pretty sure it's a free or standard action to do that.

*edit: Who's right about the hp, me or mucat? It's important.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:27 AM
Assuming that the PC druid is the one who cast the entangle, you should persuade him to dismiss it, it's hurting your allies way more than it helps. Pretty sure it's a free or standard action to do that.

Being under the delusion that these are real wolves, they're keeping them entagled with the intent of capturing a pair of them as pets. :smallsigh:


*edit: Who's right about the hp, me or mucat? It's important.

The damage listed is damage taken. The effigy wolf reading 25 is the closest one to "death."

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 12:27 AM
Well, we have 60 damage over three rounds thus far, split among the wolves. So, about 20 damage a round total, mainly due to the wolves only having 1 DR. The bear has 3, which is a noticeable boost at this level. Between the mobs, there is a grand total of 255 hp.

Figure you lose some damage production due to NPC casualties, spillover of damage, and the higher DR on the bear, and we're looking at a fight lasting roughly 14 rounds. Thats a rather crazy slog. Now, enemy damage will drop off as the battle continues...one wolf is probably going down next round.

However, a human fighter with padded armor has what, a 14 AC or the like? The claws on the bear are +11. The bear isn't going down for some time, and he'll take a collection of things with him, especially if he gets an assortment of full attacks.

The question is, do you expect your PCs to be able to battle this out for 12-14 rounds? And will it be a fun fight? It is doable...at a high level of optimization, but given your party composition, I would not assume that they have that at all.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:28 AM
The damage listed is damage taken. The effigy wolf reading 25 is the closest one to "death."

In that case this is probably going to be a bloodbath. :smallfrown:

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:33 AM
Well, we have 60 damage over three rounds thus far, split among the wolves. So, about 20 damage a round total, mainly due to the wolves only having 1 DR. The bear has 3, which is a noticeable boost at this level. Between the mobs, there is a grand total of 255 hp.

Over two rounds. The third round just started. How does that alter the calculations? :smallconfused:


Figure you lose some damage production due to NPC casualties, spillover of damage, and the higher DR on the bear, and we're looking at a fight lasting roughly 14 rounds. Thats a rather crazy slog. Now, enemy damage will drop off as the battle continues...one wolf is probably going down next round.

However, a human fighter with padded armor has what, a 14 AC or the like? The claws on the bear are +11. The bear isn't going down for some time, and he'll take a collection of things with him, especially if he gets an assortment of full attacks.

Stopping here to remark that the Militiamen (padded Fighters) have only 10 AC. 11 when flatfooted. Yeah... they kinda suck. I think later models will have shields added. :smallannoyed:


The question is, do you expect your PCs to be able to battle this out for 12-14 rounds? And will it be a fun fight? It is doable...at a high level of optimization, but given your party composition, I would not assume that they have that at all.

I would say no, they are not optimized in the least. Though considering the bear, I wouldn't be suprised if they started a fighting retreat next session.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-16, 12:34 AM
Short answer is yes, and they had no chance to survive make their time. May I suggest that the bear is a normal bear who will attack anyone nearby?

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:37 AM
*edit: Heck, even make this one a real bear that just happens to be territorial. Have it attack the unharmed wolf.

May I suggest that the bear is a normal bear who will attack anyone nearby?

I may need to do this. The Druid still has speak with animals active, so he could even ask it for help.

Alternatively, there's a Gnoll tribe in the area that the soldiers are on good terms with. They could convieniently come to the rescue.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:43 AM
Alternatively, there's a Gnoll tribe in the area that the soldiers are on good terms with. They could convieniently come to the rescue.

I approve this course of action. It even fits, they could be hunting these things. If the effigies have been in the area recently, they may have attacked a gnoll hunting party, and they want revenge? That combined with teaming up with the bear should help.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:44 AM
I approve this course of action. It even fits, they could be hunting these things. If the effigies have been in the area recently, they may have attacked a gnoll hunting party, and they want revenge? That combined with teaming up with the bear should help.

On the other hand, it does lead to still more friendly NPCs to deal with. The fight is REALLY slow as it is.

Vantharion
2010-10-16, 12:47 AM
If the druid sees a real bear walk in and attack the effigy bear, asks it for help, the bear could explain they are not nature's creatures.
You also could tip players off to them not being wolves by metal sounds on weapon strikes and stuff like that.
I could also recommend letting the players throw a knowledge check or something at determining a weak point to make future wolves easier.
Unless you intervene this is a game over fight.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-16, 12:49 AM
Oh just kill these morons and get 'em to make better characters and/or some advice on running less lethal games from the forums.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:52 AM
Oh just kill these morons and get 'em to make better characters and/or some advice on running less lethal games from the forums.

That's not particularly helpful. :smallannoyed:

Especially since if they get on these forums, I won't be able to freely use it for advice anymore. :smalltongue:

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-16, 12:54 AM
Personally I would have used the Warrior NPC class for that many common guards (Same as fighter, but without the feats, less DM work, and more power by comparison for the PCs.)

From the ghoul-infested town and pyramid head expy you already had the PCs deal with, the PCs should be accustomed to dealing with a horror setting, and retreat should always be somewhere between plan A and plan B. Sure they're surrounded, but the PCs should be able to take out enough of the effigys to make their escape. You could even encourage this by giving hints that there's more coming, and by leaving the PHB open to the page that describes the "Tactical withdraw" action. As for their mission, it's to find out why they're attacking, and with one of the effigies at 7 HP total, as well as from the use of melee weapons against effigies, the PCs or NPCs should have realized that they're fighting constructs by now (Effigies are more of a steampunk style machine than their golem cousins which are animated stone, though there wouldn't be stats to reflect this, they could be sparking, limping, vibrating, humming like a motor, or any other many set ways you could give off that they're not beast.)

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 12:57 AM
Agreed. Multiple TPKs is much more likely to lead to blaming the DM or the game, rather than leading to an optimization frenzy.

The "It's a real bear" idea is probably the easiest solution. Swings the fight, allows you to kill off some of the NPCs with wolves still, but still wrap up the fight in a reasonable time, and without introducing too many more potential allies.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:57 AM
You don't need to have sparking wires or anything, by this point any self respecting druid has already figured it out. Anyone who works with animals extensively would know these are not alive.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 12:58 AM
Personally I would have used the Warrior NPC class for that many common guards (Same as fighter, but without the feats, less DM work, and more power by comparison for the PCs.)

Given the non-heroic fantasy nature of this campaign, more power for the PCs is not something I particularly smile upon.

On the other hand, I'm lazy with mooks, and don't give them skills or feats. As a result, these fellows functionally are Warriors.


From the ghoul-infested town and pyramid head expy you already had the PCs deal with, the PCs should be accustomed to dealing with a horror setting, and retreat should always be somewhere between plan A and plan B. Sure they're surrounded, but the PCs should be able to take out enough of the effigys to make their escape. You could even encourage this by giving hints that there's more coming, and by leaving the PHB open to the page that describes the "Tactical withdraw" action.

I certaintly hope so. Their last TPK happened because retreat never occured to them. :smallsigh:


As for their mission, it's to find out why they're attacking, and with one of the effigies at 7 HP total, as well as from the use of melee weapons against effigies, the PCs or NPCs should have realized that they're fighting constructs by now (Effigies are more of a steampunk style machine than their golem cousins which are animated stone, though there wouldn't be stats to reflect this, they could be sparking, limping, vibrating, humming like a motor, or any other many set ways you could give off that they're not beast.)

My intention was to make this obvious when they killed the first wolf, and have the internal mechanics revealed via decapitation or something.


You don't need to have sparking wires or anything, by this point any self respecting druid has already figured it out. Anyone who works with animals extensively would know these are not alive.

Their current conclusion is if they aren't living wolves, they must be undead wolves. Despite the fact that they aren't decaying and don't smell. (Then again, it is winter...)

They still want to capture a pair as pets, though. :smallannoyed:

Besides, the Druid is fairly dense. The player is, rather. The character has fairly good INT and WIS.

true_shinken
2010-10-16, 01:04 AM
They will most probably die.
Seems like you finally got what you wanted.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-16, 01:18 AM
Seriously dude - you have the wrong players for horror. They need some lessons from the dungeon crawling school of hard knocks before you try making them your little victims. Either explain this OOC and help 'em roll up new characters (while you, the DM, are asking advice on less lethal campaigns) or kill 'em, don't explain anything, get the advice and run something a little less...disheartening.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 01:23 AM
Given the non-heroic fantasy nature of this campaign, more power for the PCs is not something I particularly smile upon.


This seems odd, given the tendancy to advance enemies you've displayed. In general, enemies should be optimized to the same degree as the party. If the party is at heroic levels of power, so too should be the opposition, for instance.

Consider the effigies, you have something like 35,000 gp(plus xp) cost creatures running around without their master, killing at random. The market cost would be even higher. This does not seem like an appropriate amount of wealth for most individuals near their level by any means, certainly in a "non-heroic" campaign. In fact, it's enough wealth that even fairly high level casters would not wish to waste this on such a trivial task.

Ironically enough, this makes the desire to capture one rather reasonable, if completely impractical due to their impending demise.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 01:23 AM
Wow, at first blush it looks like this is going to be ugly. I can't tell how many people will live throug it from this though. Could i get a grid or something to show who is where in relation to these effigies? That would give me a great idea how this might go.

Should've covered this a while ago. I can't really give a precise grid, but here's a rough description, using the campfire as a central point:

Effigy Wolf 50 ft. N, being threatened by Druid, Wolf Companion, Hexblade and Samurai (Banded Mail).

Effigy? Bear 60 ft. N.

Effigy Wolf 20 ft. W, being threatened by Legionnaire (Entangled), Militiaman (Morningstar, Entangled), Militiaman (Battlaxe), and Samurai (Breastplate)

Effigy Wolf (Entangled) and Effigy Wolf 30 ft. SW, being threatened by Legionnaire (Entangled) and Militiaman (Morningstar, Entangled)

Effigy Wolf 30 ft. SE, being threatened by Legionnaire and Barbarian.

Effigy Wolf 30 ft. NE, being threatened by Militiaman (Battlaxe)

Militiaman (Shortbow, Entangled) 5 ft. SW.

Militaman (Shortbow) 5 ft. SE.

Ranger 10 ft. N.


This seems odd, given the tendancy to advance enemies you've displayed. In general, enemies should be optimized to the same degree as the party. If the party is at heroic levels of power, so too should be the opposition, for instance.

Consider the effigies, you have something like 35,000 gp(plus xp) cost creatures running around without their master, killing at random. The market cost would be even higher. This does not seem like an appropriate amount of wealth for most individuals near their level by any means, certainly in a "non-heroic" campaign. In fact, it's enough wealth that even fairly high level casters would not wish to waste this on such a trivial task.

When I say I'm not aiming for heroic fantasy, I don't mean "I want my PCs to always be weak," I mean "I don't want my PCs to ever have it easy." I'm a fan of Earn Your Happy Ending (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarnYourHappyEnding).

My Hand Wave (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave) for the availability of these effigies is that the person who built them has access to a rich iron mine (being mined by still more effigies), and thus doesn't need to pay anyone for materials.

And yes, the person behind all this is much higher level than the PCs. I generally intend for my villains to be long-term threats.


Ironically enough, this makes the desire to capture one rather reasonable, if completely impractical due to their impending demise.

If for all the wrong reasons. :smallamused:

Marnath
2010-10-16, 01:37 AM
That's a little hazy, but from my scribbles on this kleenex, it seems like your players and their allies have a tactical advantage in that they have the wolves split up and surrounded. What remains to be seen is if the few guys at each wolf can win out. The bear should move to attack the wolf nearest it, which is I think the one with only a battleaxe wielder on it?

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 01:41 AM
That's a little hazy, but from my scribbles on this kleenex, it seems like your players and their allies have a tactical advantage in that they have the wolves split up and surrounded. What remains to be seen is if the few guys at each wolf can win out. The bear should move to attack the wolf nearest it, which is I think the one with only a battleaxe wielder on it?

Either the one with the battleaxe wielder on it or the one by the Druid. The Bear's location would be closer to NNE.

Oh, and I forgot:

Ranger 10 ft. N.

The player's fairly quiet, and if she wasn't 2nd in the initiative order I'd probably forget her even more often than I do. :smalltongue:

Marnath
2010-10-16, 01:44 AM
If you're worried about slowing combat down, maybe save the gnolls for after some of the npc's die and hope not too many pc's go down with them.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 01:52 AM
If you're worried about slowing combat down, maybe save the gnolls for after some of the npc's die and hope not too many pc's go down with them.

I was thinking that.

By my own estimates, the effigy wolves to the north, west, and SE are boned, though the one to the west might be able to take the Samurai with it. The one to the east will take out the Militiaman and head to the next closest target, the Ranger.

The two SW effigy wolves will kill the NPCs fighting it and head for the archers by the fire. Depending on how the PCs react, the NPC archers and possibly the Ranger may die.

So, bear aside, I'm thinking 5 NPC deaths and 2 PC deaths at the worst. But I don't run variable models in my head very well. I'm much better with concrete equations. :smallsigh:

Anyway, it's 2:00 AM here. I'm gonna go die now. I'll check back after I'm rezzed in the morning.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 02:01 AM
Make sure to let us know how it goes. :smallsmile:

Alleine
2010-10-16, 02:20 AM
Ok, at first I thought you were just a sadist, but a bear showed up and your PC's didn't run? They deserve what they get, or maybe someone should have explained to them about bears. Bears are LETHAL. If I was in a fight with a bear at low levels I would stay as far away as possible. Or maybe in our campaigns bears are just lucky and crit early/often. Either way its a bear, I mean seriously. A BEAR. Dudes can take bullets and not be fazed.


To be a tad more helpful, you might think of having some of the NPC's realize that everything is hopeless? They, for whatever reason, decide that at least one person needs to survive and notify HQ that "Oh god there's so many we're all gonna di-AAAARGH" and then tell the PC's to escort them while the rest of the fighters hold off the effigies. Either the PC's die because they didn't go, they go and fail to protect the dude and then get killed because there's no one to vouch for them, or they go and protect the dude and make it away relatively alive.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 02:55 AM
I have reached the point of being so tired I'm not. Yay. :smallannoyed:


Ok, at first I thought you were just a sadist,

I'm not just a sadist...


but a bear showed up and your PC's didn't run? They deserve what they get, or maybe someone should have explained to them about bears. Bears are LETHAL. If I was in a fight with a bear at low levels I would stay as far away as possible. Or maybe in our campaigns bears are just lucky and crit early/often. Either way its a bear, I mean seriously. A BEAR. Dudes can take bullets and not be fazed.

In fairness, the session ended RIGHT after the bear showed up. Maybe they just haven't run yet.


To be a tad more helpful, you might think of having some of the NPC's realize that everything is hopeless? They, for whatever reason, decide that at least one person needs to survive and notify HQ that "Oh god there's so many we're all gonna di-AAAARGH" and then tell the PC's to escort them while the rest of the fighters hold off the effigies. Either the PC's die because they didn't go, they go and fail to protect the dude and then get killed because there's no one to vouch for them, or they go and protect the dude and make it away relatively alive.

With the appearance of the bear, a fighting retreat may be called for, yes. Problem being they're a day's hike from the fort and don't have many places to run. Also, wolves are much faster than humans.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-16, 03:30 AM
I'd suggest fudging that these particular wolves cannot make two move actions, though a move and attack is fine, unless you've already had said wolves charging the characters on the first round of combat...

Alleine
2010-10-16, 03:32 AM
In fairness, the session ended RIGHT after the bear showed up. Maybe they just haven't run yet.

Ah, that makes sense. Maybe before the next session starts mention a few choice incidents involving bears and how they didn't die while everything else did.


With the appearance of the bear, a fighting retreat may be called for, yes. Problem being they're a day's hike from the fort and don't have many places to run. Also, wolves are much faster than humans.

Oooh, plus being effigies they can't tire out. Hrmmm. If your players tend to fight it out, I doubt they'll beat a clever retreat wherein they give the wolves the slip.

Amphetryon
2010-10-16, 07:44 AM
Marginally late to the party here, but:



Alternatively, there's a Gnoll tribe in the area that the soldiers are on good terms with. They could convieniently come to the rescue.
Could I strongly suggest you NOT employ this tactic? It would appear that will boil down to "DM fighting against monsters controlled by the DM while the players watch" very quickly. That's almost as dissatisfying as getting slaughtered wholesale.

DonDuckie
2010-10-16, 07:46 AM
A retreat could be possible. You mentioned nearby gnolls, the militia guys could just realize the battle isn't winnable and opt to head towards the gnolls, conviniently defined to be less than a days hike away. If the NPCs run, the PCs should follow.

You could also let the bear be near-death running from a gnoll hunting party. This would bring more NPCs, but also reduce the number of rounds of combat. EDIT:(after reading the above post, this option is not good)

Also one or more 1st level NPCs could panic and run off in different directions, thus drawing a wolf or two (each?) away from the battle for a few rounds. This would split the encounter into two(or more) easier encounters.

If it was me, I would prefer someone fleeing, it doesn't complicate the battle, and it adds narative, like militia men not being proberly trained.

There is really no limit to the number of ways to have this turn out exactly as you wish.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 08:27 AM
Fleeing is not likely to be seriously considered if there's nowhere nearby to flee too, and the monsters are obviously faster than they are.

However, the fact that they have a hopeless fight in front of them, and they're discussing the monsters that are about to turn them into gribbly bits, and want to keep them as lil' pets indicates that they are probably playing under very different assumptions than you are. If this is routine, you might want to have an OOC talk about expectations for the campaign.

KillianHawkeye
2010-10-16, 08:44 AM
the Militiamen (padded Fighters) have only 10 AC. 11 when flatfooted. Yeah... they kinda suck.

I just wanted to note that it's physically impossible to have a better AC when flat-footed than normal. You may have overlooked the fact that Dexterity penalties still apply when flat-footed (only positive Dex bonuses are lost).

Awnetu
2010-10-16, 10:23 AM
With the appearance of the bear, a fighting retreat may be called for, yes. Problem being they're a day's hike from the fort and don't have many places to run. Also, wolves are much faster than humans.

They don't have to outrun the wolves, just the Fighters and each other. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not familiar with the effigies, why cant the druid recognize fairly easily that these are not normal wolves?

blackjack217
2010-10-16, 10:57 AM
Pacing advice from the Heroes of battle:
"In some cases you might have NPC's fighting other npc's. If you want to let the dice decide the fate of these npc's perform the rolling beforehand so as not to slow down the game"

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 11:25 AM
They don't have to outrun the wolves, just the Fighters and each other. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not familiar with the effigies, why cant the druid recognize fairly easily that these are not normal wolves?

Well, Comp Arc shows what looks like a transformers lion. It looks fairly obvious. At most, it would be a pretty easy knowledge check(common info, DC 10) to determine that robot-creatures are not natural.

Eldariel
2010-10-16, 11:39 AM
With the appearance of the bear, a fighting retreat may be called for, yes. Problem being they're a day's hike from the fort and don't have many places to run. Also, wolves are much faster than humans.

However, they may not be willing (or, as the PCs find out they're effigies, capable) of following them after the fight is over. It's a safe bet the Legionnaires and Militiamen will at least take some rounds to slay, especially if they focus on fighting defensively, trying to get some cover, and just buying time. If they can last even just half a minute, the machines may be disinclined or simply incapable of following.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 11:39 AM
Fleeing is not likely to be seriously considered if there's nowhere nearby to flee too, and the monsters are obviously faster than they are.

However, the fact that they have a hopeless fight in front of them, and they're discussing the monsters that are about to turn them into gribbly bits, and want to keep them as lil' pets indicates that they are probably playing under very different assumptions than you are. If this is routine, you might want to have an OOC talk about expectations for the campaign.

If they didn't learn when they got plastered by super zombies I seriously doubt they'll get the hint, since these are "just animals." :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-10-16, 11:43 AM
If they didn't learn when they got plastered by super zombies I seriously doubt they'll get the hint, since these are "just animals." :smalltongue:

Probably not.

I just find it amusing when the DM believes he's doing a horror campaign, and the reaction of the players to the monsters is "aw, he's so cute. Can we keep him?"

Awnetu
2010-10-16, 12:00 PM
Well to be fair, 2 (or 3?) of the players are also fairly new, I dont think you can expect them to understand/expect this kind of stuff.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 12:20 PM
I guess the bottom line is even if these thing tear the party to little bloody bits, as long as the players keep in that mindset I think it probably doesn't matter, they'll just roll up more characters and find other cute animals to adopt or something. :smalltongue:

Volthawk
2010-10-16, 12:25 PM
They don't have to outrun the wolves, just the Fighters and each other. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not familiar with the effigies, why cant the druid recognize fairly easily that these are not normal wolves?

It's a DC 20 Spot check to tell it's not a normal living animal.

Lapak
2010-10-16, 01:57 PM
Yes, you are about to murder your party again. And yes, your style is going to lead to this over and over again.

You claim that the last TPK happened because running did not occur to them, but they were hemmed into a building surrounded by undead at the time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169609) - flight would not have seemed like an option to me either, and I'm a fan of avoiding whatever battles I can.

They learned from this, and successfully avoided the big scary guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171268) you sent at them...

...so you immediately railroad them, hardcore, into another unwinnable fight. (Tidal waved/captured without chance to escape/forced to accept job/wake up surrounded.) Since they woke up surrounded, wolves DO run faster than people, and they are miles from safety? I'm betting that retreat once again seems unrealistic. Because it is unrealistic. This isn't going to teach them to run from fights they can't win; from what you're telling us, they're only FACING fights they can't win, and sometimes that they can't avoid either. Am I wrong about that? Do they get a chance to, say, win a fight once in a while? A horror game where you are doomed unless you pick your fights carefully is one thing; a horror game where all you can do is hope you're the last one picked off is something else.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 02:06 PM
That's what I used to think Lapak, but the more I read the more I think it's partly that the players just aren't that good at tactics. I mean, if you're that outnumbered and all you can think of is adopting some wolves, I don't think escape or defeat have occured to them.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-16, 02:51 PM
That brown bear effigy is going to pwn your PC's, and the NPC's as well, unless the party can isolate it and put it out of commission before it starts really tearing into them. From what I know about your players, they are all screwed.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I feel it's unlikely. That group of wolves would give them a run for their money, even without the bear in the picture.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 02:55 PM
That brown bear effigy is going to pwn your PC's, and the NPC's as well, unless the party can isolate it and put it out of commission before it starts really tearing into them. From what I know about your players, they are all screwed.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I feel it's unlikely. That group of wolves would give them a run for their money, even without the bear in the picture.

I think we reached a consensus that it should be changed to a real bear.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-16, 03:05 PM
I think we reached a consensus that it should be changed to a real bear.

Even a real bear is going to give them a lot of trouble. One could probably single handedly wipe the party. Brown bears are tough CR 4's when you don't have arcane or divine support. For a party like this they are an easy CR 5 or 6.

That bear can mow through NPC's and PC's alike with only 1 claw attack, and decent bite rolls will kill one person a round as well.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-10-16, 03:16 PM
Even a real bear is going to give them a lot of trouble. One could probably single handedly wipe the party. Brown bears are tough CR 4's when you don't have arcane or divine support. For a party like this they are an easy CR 5 or 6.

That bear can mow through NPC's and PC's alike with only 1 claw attack, and decent bite rolls will kill one person a round as well.

The point was, however, that the bear would also attack the wolves, and the druid still has speak with animals active.

Kallisti
2010-10-16, 03:19 PM
My recommendation whenever there are large numbers of friendly NPCs in a fight
: let the players control them. Divide them up between the players. That way, while the combat will still be quite long, they'll feel involved. Plus this way the Gnoll hunting party can show up if they're needed without it shutting the players out of the fight.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 03:30 PM
I just wanted to note that it's physically impossible to have a better AC when flat-footed than normal. You may have overlooked the fact that Dexterity penalties still apply when flat-footed (only positive Dex bonuses are lost).

I see. That does make a bit more sense.

*grumbles as he fishes through several dozen character sheets to remedy this* :smallannoyed:


A retreat could be possible. You mentioned nearby gnolls, the militia guys could just realize the battle isn't winnable and opt to head towards the gnolls, conviniently defined to be less than a days hike away. If the NPCs run, the PCs should follow.

Unfotunately, they already know that the Gnoll's home camp is roughly five days hike west.


Also one or more 1st level NPCs could panic and run off in different directions, thus drawing a wolf or two (each?) away from the battle for a few rounds. This would split the encounter into two(or more) easier encounters.

If it was me, I would prefer someone fleeing, it doesn't complicate the battle, and it adds narative, like militia men not being proberly trained.

I like this one, and it's a totally reasonable reaction to a friggen' bear. :smallamused:


I'm not familiar with the effigies, why cant the druid recognize fairly easily that these are not normal wolves?

Mainly because the player is dense. He should have realized that although the look like wolves, their behavior is all wrong. Oh, and they don't bleed. The Samurai (Breastplate) picked up on that one, though, and is insistant on killing all of them.


Well, Comp Arc shows what looks like a transformers lion. It looks fairly obvious. At most, it would be a pretty easy knowledge check(common info, DC 10) to determine that robot-creatures are not natural.

It's a DC 20 Spot check, and the fluff indicates that apart from some oddness around the limbs, effigy creatures are supposed to be identical to their living counterparts except for body language and some bunching at the joints.

My own fluff is going by "looks completely real, except for the eyes, which are clearly robotic." However, it's the middle of the night and all the players can see is the reflective effect of the moonlight in the eyes.


That brown bear effigy is going to pwn your PC's, and the NPC's as well, unless the party can isolate it and put it out of commission before it starts really tearing into them. From what I know about your players, they are all screwed.

I think we reached a consensus that it should be changed to a real bear.

Alternatively, since the bear hasn't done anything yet, I could blatantly retcon it out of existance and admit to my players that it would have torn them apart like wet tissue paper. I've done it before. :smallsigh:


The point was, however, that the bear would also attack the wolves, and the druid still has speak with animals active.

Sadly, I just don't think the Druid is that smart. :smallannoyed:

Mando Knight
2010-10-16, 03:32 PM
Stopping here to remark that the Militiamen (padded Fighters) have only 10 AC. 11 when flatfooted. Yeah... they kinda suck. I think later models will have shields added. :smallannoyed:

Flatfooted doesn't work that way. You don't lose a Dexterity penalty to AC when flatfooted, just a Dexterity bonus. See Tendriculos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm) for an example.
I just wanted to note that it's physically impossible to have a better AC when flat-footed than normal. You may have overlooked the fact that Dexterity penalties still apply when flat-footed (only positive Dex bonuses are lost).
...Oops. Must have skipped over the fact that this was already mentioned...

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-16, 03:39 PM
The point was, however, that the bear would also attack the wolves, and the druid still has speak with animals active.

Good point. The druid ought to be able to Animal Empathy a real bear.

Kiren
2010-10-16, 03:40 PM
I think they have a chance if they leave all the people as cannon fodder. The druid has a better chance with long strider. Better chance if they have a Summon Nature's ally 1 available as more cannon fodder.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 03:46 PM
I think they have a chance if they leave all the people as cannon fodder. The druid has a better chance with long strider. Better chance if they have a Summon Nature's ally 1 available as more cannon fodder.

He doesn't have either of those prepared.

Callista
2010-10-16, 03:51 PM
To be a tad more helpful, you might think of having some of the NPC's realize that everything is hopeless? They, for whatever reason, decide that at least one person needs to survive and notify HQ that "Oh god there's so many we're all gonna di-AAAARGH" and then tell the PC's to escort them while the rest of the fighters hold off the effigies. Either the PC's die because they didn't go, they go and fail to protect the dude and then get killed because there's no one to vouch for them, or they go and protect the dude and make it away relatively alive. I like this. It's nice and cinematic and it gives the PCs a job they are capable of doing. You've given them an encounter that's too difficult for them; you want to give them one that they can "win". Escaping counts, BTW, for the sake of XP.


I'm not just a sadist...

In fairness, the session ended RIGHT after the bear showed up. Maybe they just haven't run yet.

With the appearance of the bear, a fighting retreat may be called for, yes. Problem being they're a day's hike from the fort and don't have many places to run. Also, wolves are much faster than humans.They don't need to outrun the wolves as much as they need to outmaneuver them. The PCs and their messenger could, for example, encounter a rope bridge across a canyon or a river which can be cut down. For appropriate drama, the wolves and the bear, evidently having horribly killed the people who stayed behind, can be running up to the bridge just as the PCs reach the other end and cut the ropes.

If, later on, they go back to where the battle happened, let them find the bodies of all the people who stayed behind... all except for one. (Spy? Hostage? Something more sinister? You decide.)

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 03:54 PM
Escaping counts, BTW, for the sake of XP.

I know. I rewarded them XP for the whole Pyramid Head Expy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy) incident.


They don't need to outrun the wolves as much as they need to outmaneuver them. The PCs and their messenger could, for example, encounter a rope bridge across a canyon or a river which can be cut down. For appropriate drama, the wolves and the bear, evidently having cut down the people who stayed behind, can be running up to the bridge just as the PCs reach the other end and cut the ropes.

*glances at map, strokes beard*

Hm... they aren't far from the ocean. Maybe they could drive the things off the cliff? :smallamused:

Callista
2010-10-16, 03:56 PM
That presumes they could somehow intimidate mindless constructs into fleeing heedlessly enough to tumble off cliffs...

It is highly unlikely, though, that these constructs have the required buoyancy to swim. Or the brains to realize that water might damage them. It's also rather likely that they would mindlessly chase anything they were trying to kill, even if it did try to escape by swimming for a promising barrier island...

If I were one of the PCs and found myself fighting constructs near the ocean, I'd give that a try. Swimming in armor is going to be problematic, of course. They may be forced to wade in and fight in the shallows, where they will have to hope that the constructs get waterlogged before they kill everyone.

They're missing the "these are constructs" key information--they should know that by now.

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 03:58 PM
That presumes they could somehow intimidate mindless constructs into fleeing heedlessly enough to tumble off cliffs...

I was thinking outmaneuver. Like hang over the edge of the cliff (or down a trail, leading to more Schrodinger's Plot Hooks), and letting the effigies just stupidly charge straight off it.


It is highly unlikely, though, that these constructs have the required buoyancy to swim. Or the brains to realize that water might damage them.

Or this. This works, too.


Druids can spontaneously convert spells to SNA spells? Might want to remind them of that, unless you changed that rule and I missed it (totally possible).

No, that's still the case. I just forgot about it.

arguskos
2010-10-16, 04:41 PM
No, that's still the case. I just forgot about it.
Definitely remind the Druid of that. Having meatshields to tank for the party, even a few hits, can be amazing.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-16, 04:48 PM
The next night, on their way to find out the problem, the Druid spots a wolf near camp. Approaching it, he casts speak with animals to ask it what's the deal with the attacks. The wolf, evidently not interested in conversation, responds by biting the Druid in the arm..

Can we explain this part?

The wolf bites the druid because it did'nt feel like talking?
Did the Druid fail his empathy check extremely bad?

Drakevarg
2010-10-16, 04:49 PM
Can we explain this part?

The wolf bites the druid because it did'nt feel like talking?
Did the Druid fail his empathy check extremely bad?

It's very easy to explain. The wolf is a robot. You can't Wild Empathy a robot.

blackjack217
2010-10-16, 04:51 PM
Can we explain this part?

The wolf bites the druid because it did'nt feel like talking?
Did the Druid fail his empathy check extremely bad?

construct.
edit: nija'd

Marnath
2010-10-16, 05:34 PM
Can we explain this part?

The wolf bites the druid because it did'nt feel like talking?
Did the Druid fail his empathy check extremely bad?

I was going to ask this last night, but then ya know, I read his post. On topic though, I second the ideas of either retconning Mr. Bear, or leaving the npc's to be horribly mauled so you can cross the bridge. :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-16, 06:32 PM
What does construct have to do with being bitten.
If you try talking to a Iron Golem: it doesn't want to bite you for no reason.
It was either ordered to bite you or it doesn't do it.

Marnath
2010-10-16, 06:34 PM
What does construct have to do with being bitten.
If you try talking to a Iron Golem: it doesn't want to bite you for no reason.
It was either ordered to bite you or it doesn't do it.

It was already going to bite him. :smallsigh:
He wanted to talk to it to ask it not to.
It's a robot, so it doesn't answer and bites him.